How's the hold out crowd holding up?

[Zygote]

Its not a crack in the normal sense where you are stealing a game you didn't pay for and it be allowed to be discussed. Freedom of speech and such eh?

[John Channing]

Freedom of speech is for the outside world. Here, we have rules.

The FAQ covers most of them, and the reasons for them, quite nicely.

JCC

[mookiemookie]

Don't try and subvert the rules.

[Zygote]

This is all I get when I follow the link to the FAQ -> Invalid FAQ Item specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

I'll abide by the rules and apologize for inadvertently breaching them however I do think they should be reconsidered. My 100 Australian dollars was taken by Ubisoft and the way they obtained it was deceptive and misleading. I don't think such companies deserve to be protected in any way. Least of all on a forum of similarly deceived users.

Thanks

[Sailor Steve]

The rules are there because Subsim has a unique position in the game design community. Mutual support and respect are what keeps it going, and the forums are only a part of Subsim Review. Neal doesn't need or deserve to lose that respect because someone disagrees. In the end his opinion is the only one that counts. Most of us support that, and the ones who don't are perfectly free to post their own opinions anywhere but here.

His house, his rules.

[Placoderm]

My 100 Australian dollars was taken by Ubisoft and the way they obtained it was deceptive and misleading. I don't think such companies deserve to be protected in any way. Least of all on a forum of similarly deceived users.

Zygote, many of us feel deceived...but this forum is not owned by, operated by, or controlled by Ubisoft. It is privately owned, and the owner is the only one who gets to say what can and cannot be discussed here. "Freedom of speech" does not apply here, nor should it. (In context, the 'right of free speech' is limited to government censorship of free speech and not to private places.)

I am far from a supporter of Ubisoft, and they have screwed me for the last time...but this site has rules. Please abide by them and we will all be the better for it.


:yep:

[John Channing]

This is all I get when I follow the link to the FAQ -> Invalid FAQ Item specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

I'll abide by the rules and apologize for inadvertently breaching them however I do think they should be reconsidered. My 100 Australian dollars was taken by Ubisoft and the way they obtained it was deceptive and misleading. I don't think such companies deserve to be protected in any way. Least of all on a forum of similarly deceived users.

Thanks

Try this...

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php

JCC

[Jimbuna]

Zygote, many of us feel deceived...but this forum is not owned by, operated by, or controlled by Ubisoft. It is privately owned, and the owner is the only one who gets to say what can and cannot be discussed here. "Freedom of speech" does not apply here, nor should it. (In context, the 'right of free speech' is limited to government censorship of free speech and not to private places.)

I am far from a supporter of Ubisoft, and they have screwed me for the last time...but this site has rules. Please abide by them and we will all be the better for it.


:yep:

^^^^^ http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[henriksultan]

I'm still holding out, drm will go away at some time :O:

[Moeceefus]

Dont be insubordinate.

[Takeda Shingen]

I'll abide by the rules and apologize for inadvertently breaching them however I do think they should be reconsidered. My 100 Australian dollars was taken by Ubisoft and the way they obtained it was deceptive and misleading. I don't think such companies deserve to be protected in any way. Least of all on a forum of similarly deceived users.

Thanks

Bear in mind that SubSim's success comes from the cooperation between the site and the development teams and programmers that make these games. It is in the best interest of the community that this relationship continues. Accordingly, piracy, No-CD Hacks and the circumvention of copy protection will not be discussed here.

The Management

[HundertzehnGustav]

got an iso file lying around...
but eh...
*yawns*

[scrapser]

Even if the DRM is removed I will still not buy it. To me it is not even half a sim...even if all the bugs were magically fixed and it ran like butter on a hot knife.

The basic elements of any WW2 submarine simulation have long since been established since Silent Service first appeared in late 1984.

Full war campaign
Complete theater of operations (Atlantic and Med for Germans, Pacific for United States)
Manual and TDC targeting
All salient submarines (and upgrades) available as they historically appeared during the war.
Extensive platforms in theater (friendly and enemy...sea and air)
Historically accurate and functional instrumentation and controls
One would assume things like physics, AI, graphics, unit and weapons modeling, environment, and crew management would be part of the above and as bug free as possible - before release - but that is admittedly (and tragically) wishful thinking.

There is no problem with adding content to enhance the experience and make it more immersive. This is what we all want. But removing the basics alienates prospective customers and that is one of the main issues here. This is my opinion but for me it is also common sense. I don't understand why Ubisoft chose to go sideways and backwards with SH5.

[Zedi]

Wonder why some people feel the urge to inform us that they will not buy the game.. and they even spend a lot of their life time to do that. Weird..

[John Channing]

I guess for the same reason someone felt the need to come to Subsim.com and start a thread about not buying a Subsim, instead of going to letskillaasubsim.com to do it.

Like Neal said... SH5: released too soon, killed by the "fans".

JCC

[FIREWALL]

Wonder why some people feel the urge to inform us that they will not buy the game.. and they even spend a lot of their life time to do that. Weird..

I agree. Almost sub-human. :DL

[krashkart]

Is there a subliminal conspiracy here to get me to eat a submarine sandwich? :huh::hmm2:

[FIREWALL]

Is there a subliminal conspiracy here to get me to eat a submarine sandwich? :huh::hmm2:

As long as it isn't sub-par I'll split it with you. :DL

[Madox58]

Why do you all keep engageing in subturfuge?
:-?
Why don't you just submite the fact that
your subjugating us all to your
subjective opinions?
:D

[SteelViking]

Why do you all keep engageing in subturfuge?
:-?
Why don't you just submite the fact that
your subjugating us all to your
subjective opinions?
:D

Because, we would rather reject your reality and substitute our own.

[FIREWALL]

The subject of a sub par subsim is highly subspicious in nature and mostly unsubstantiated. :smug:

[Madox58]

Because, we would rather reject your reality and substitute our own.
You don't really subscribe to that line of reasoning.
Do you?
:haha:

[SteelViking]

You don't really subscribe to that line of reasoning.
Do you?
:haha:

Of course I do, because that line of reasoning is above being subjected to scrutiny.:haha:

[Madox58]

Could you substantiate that position?
:shucks:

[SteelViking]

Could you substantiate that position?
:shucks:

If it came right down to it, yes, I could substantially substantiate my claim that other's scrutiny is sub par compared to what would be needed to subjugate that line of substantial reason. Whoa, that statement had so much substance I almost went subconscious just saying it.:arrgh!:

[FIREWALL]

Who is subordinate enough to be subjective enough to substantiate this subsim and submit it to sub scrutiny as being subline.

[SteelViking]

Who is subordinate enough to be subjective enough to substantiate this subsim and submit it to sub scrutiny as being subline.

Hey, don't change the subject.:stare:.....:har:

[FIREWALL]

I've been subjugated. :dead:

[Sailor Steve]

Well, your style could be a little more subdued. :O:

[KG_Jag]

Unfortunately SH 5 submerged my interest.

[FIREWALL]

I will no longer be submissive and be subjected to this highly subsious subject.

[TarJak]

This thread has become decidedly sub-par.

[Jimbuna]

This thread has become decidedly sub-par.

Sublime even.

[Sailor Steve]

I submit that it is a poor substitute for subsimming.

[krashkart]

Dare I say, this thread may yet sublimate our collective silliness.

[robbo180265]

Well I for one have submitted all I can to this substantially sub-par thread.

[Jimbuna]

I submit that it is a poor substitute for subsimming.

That would be too subalimentational.

[scrapser]

Wonder why some people feel the urge to inform us that they will not buy the game.. and they even spend a lot of their life time to do that. Weird..

Well we have to give the people who spend their time commenting on the posts made by others something to do. If we don't we end up with Subsim members writing posts containing puns of the word, "sub".

[Nisgeis]

Well we have to give the people who spend their time commenting on the posts made by others something to do. If we don't we end up with Subsim members writing posts containing puns of the word, "sub".

I'll take the forum full of "sub" posts please.

The 'hold out crowd' are those who are deliberately not buying the game. The people who aren't holding out are those who want to buy the game but cannot because of the DRM. The 'hold out crowd' accounts for only a small percentagte (25% ish) of those who haven't bought the game. If there was a thread called 'How're the people who are waiting for DRM to be removed holding up?' then I'd have a bit of respect for it. As it is, this thread is just a whinge/moan/bash SH5 thread for those who deliberately aren't buying the game so that they can feel better about not buying it. It's like listening to the people who have just recently stopped smoking droning on endlessly about how bad smoking is for you and how much healthier they feel because they don't smoke. Are they trying to convince themselves (about SH5, not smoking, although...).

Even the person who started the thread bought the game.

Due to the way the thread is titled, it seems as if it's an invitation to keep bashing the game, e.g. 'I've still not bought the game because it still sucks.'. Well, wow, who'd have thought that with no new patch, that your opinion of a game you've never played, still hasn't changed. I'm amazed people think they need to tell us this.

Now, get back to your nicorette. I mean SH3.

On the subject of the ridiculously silly 'sub-par' puns, then that's just us trying to increase the general level of the thread. The same words are getting re-used though, so I wouldn't be subprised if people start taking more license with the words.

[scrapser]

Okay. Well I'm not "holding out"...that's for certain. I'm simply not interested due to what the sim includes (forget about the DRM issue and all the bugs for now) which is not much compared to the list of basics I wrote previously. SH5 is sort of a "sim-ette". Kind of like the cliff notes of a full simulation (one sub...only part of the war, etc.).

I come here hoping to find some tidbit of news on another company picking up the subsim development torch and carrying on, since Ubisoft has essentially hosed the franchise at this point. I figure here where the most recent subsim release is being discussed would be a good place to find such news. I know it's a long shot but where else on the Internet will you find such a rich discussion of all things subsim?

[SteelViking]

Nicely put Nisgeis.:up:

[Nisgeis]

I figure here where the most recent subsim release is being discussed would be a good place to find such news. I know it's a long shot but where else on the Internet will you find such a rich discussion of all things subsim?

Nowhere, subsim is the best! I guess it would be on the front page and discussed in the GT forum if there were a new subsim out. There's that open source one that people occasionally bring up, that's worth checking out for a third party developer (sorry I don't have a link, but I'm sure someone will post one). Danger from the deep, something like that? There's also a few conversions going on in the SH4 forum, Wolves of The Kaiser - a WWI conversion, Japanese Campaigns and a British Campaign.

If a new subsim comes out, I'll play that too. Until then, I'll be smoking away with SH5 :|\\.

[THE_MASK]

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/395/holdout.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/holdout.jpg/)

[Sailor Steve]

:haha: Very good.

But...

Matrosen Obergefreiter? Your 'Watch Officer' is not only not an officer, he's not even a petty officer? Only a senior seaman. No wonder discipline is so lax on your boat.

[robbo180265]

Sober that is awesome!

[John Channing]

I'll take the forum full of "sub" posts please.

The 'hold out crowd' are those who are deliberately not buying the game. The people who aren't holding out are those who want to buy the game but cannot because of the DRM. The 'hold out crowd' accounts for only a small percentagte (25% ish) of those who haven't bought the game. If there was a thread called 'How're the people who are waiting for DRM to be removed holding up?' then I'd have a bit of respect for it. As it is, this thread is just a whinge/moan/bash SH5 thread for those who deliberately aren't buying the game so that they can feel better about not buying it. It's like listening to the people who have just recently stopped smoking droning on endlessly about how bad smoking is for you and how much healthier they feel because they don't smoke. Are they trying to convince themselves (about SH5, not smoking, although...).

Even the person who started the thread bought the game.

Due to the way the thread is titled, it seems as if it's an invitation to keep bashing the game, e.g. 'I've still not bought the game because it still sucks.'. Well, wow, who'd have thought that with no new patch, that your opinion of a game you've never played, still hasn't changed. I'm amazed people think they need to tell us this.

Now, get back to your nicorette. I mean SH3.

On the subject of the ridiculously silly 'sub-par' puns, then that's just us trying to increase the general level of the thread. The same words are getting re-used though, so I wouldn't be subprised if people start taking more license with the words.

A sub-perb reply!

JCC

[AVGWarhawk]

Now, get back to your nicorette. I mean SH3.


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=151521

:D

[mookiemookie]

It's like listening to the people who have just recently stopped smoking droning on endlessly about how bad smoking is for you and how much healthier they feel because they don't smoke. Are they trying to convince themselves (about SH5, not smoking, although...).

Hey I resemble that remark! :D

[DeadlyWolf]

Holding up here: I gave my money to other developers\companies and I'm quite satisfied with that.
This is without any doubt the title I was expecting most, together with starcraft 2.
And what I've got? Idiotic drm, huge gameplay flaws (the "RPG" system? Please don't make me laugh), bugs, and especially a shameful communuty support (the "patch", if you dare call it that, and the communication)

I probably won't buy SH5 even without DRM (I'd honestly prefer to donate to subsim or the modding comm), and without any doubt I'm done with UBISOFT.

[Moeceefus]

*sigh* :yawn:

[Sailor Steve]

*sigh* :yawn:
:yep:

[thyro]

I guess for the same reason someone felt the need to come to Subsim.com and start a thread about not buying a Subsim, instead of going to letskillaasubsim.com to do it.

Like Neal said... SH5: released too soon, killed by the "fans".

JCC


Hey JCC this is what my browser reported... :haha:

Server not found
SH5 can't find the server at www.letskillaasubsim.com

- If your computer or network is protected by a DRM/DRM-FIX, make sure that SH5 is permitted to access the Web.

[peteuplink]

I'll take the forum full of "sub" posts please.

The 'hold out crowd' are those who are deliberately not buying the game. The people who aren't holding out are those who want to buy the game but cannot because of the DRM. The 'hold out crowd' accounts for only a small percentagte (25% ish) of those who haven't bought the game. If there was a thread called 'How're the people who are waiting for DRM to be removed holding up?' then I'd have a bit of respect for it. As it is, this thread is just a whinge/moan/bash SH5 thread for those who deliberately aren't buying the game so that they can feel better about not buying it. It's like listening to the people who have just recently stopped smoking droning on endlessly about how bad smoking is for you and how much healthier they feel because they don't smoke. Are they trying to convince themselves (about SH5, not smoking, although...).

Even the person who started the thread bought the game.

Due to the way the thread is titled, it seems as if it's an invitation to keep bashing the game, e.g. 'I've still not bought the game because it still sucks.'. Well, wow, who'd have thought that with no new patch, that your opinion of a game you've never played, still hasn't changed. I'm amazed people think they need to tell us this.

Now, get back to your nicorette. I mean SH3.

On the subject of the ridiculously silly 'sub-par' puns, then that's just us trying to increase the general level of the thread. The same words are getting re-used though, so I wouldn't be subprised if people start taking more license with the words.

No offence, but I think you're way off the mark. The "hold out crew" are the ones waiting for the DRM to be removed. The clue's in the name.
They want to buy the game but they're "holding out" until the DRM is no longer there. If you look up the phrase "holding out" you'll find that it means "waiting for something". IE, waiting for the DRM to be removed.

The ones that just simply don't want to buy the game, are exactly that. People who aren't in the slightest bit interested if it has DRM on it or not because they have no intentions at all of buying the game and really just couldn't give a toss. Lets face it the reviews have been less than stunning and this surely would put a lot of prospective buyers off.

The way you put it, it's like saying "People who don't watch football are holding out", but that's completely ignoring the fact that maybe some of these people just wouldn't go to see a football match, even if the best players in the world were playing 5 a side at the end of their street for free. It's not holding out, it's a lack of interest.

[Harmsway!]

That's correct. I want to buy the game but I'm waiting. Holding out describes me exactly.

[DeadlyWolf]

*sigh* :yawn:

:yep:
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/9/4/633876542927413685-FANBOY.jpg

[John Channing]

Were you purposely trying to offend people with that, or was it an attempt at humor?

JCC

[Nisgeis]

No offence, but I think you're way off the mark. The "hold out crew" are the ones waiting for the DRM to be removed. The clue's in the name.
They want to buy the game but they're "holding out" until the DRM is no longer there. If you look up the phrase "holding out" you'll find that it means "waiting for something". IE, waiting for the DRM to be removed.

Well, I took your advice and looked up on that there internet what 'holding out' meant and much to my surprise, it actually meant exactly what I thought it did. It doesn't mean 'waiting for' it means to continue to resist something.

If someone is not buying the game because the DRM would not allow them to play it, so they couldn't run it, then that's a perfectly sensible thing to do. If someone is able to run the game, but has not bought it, then that person has made that choice to not buy a game they could play and they can be said to be holding out. Usually the update on the 'holdout' is usually along the lines of:

I'm holding out quite nicely thankyou. SH5 is the buggiest game ever and the war only goes upto 1943. Seriously who set it so you can't dive your boat if you are on the bridge... etcetera.

So, you can see that simple update just turns into a bash of SH5.

If people want to post 'I'm still holding out because I have iron will and have taken an oath to never buy a product with DRM' then fine. Very few posts are along those lines though.

When it was suggested people actually tell Ubisoft that they didn't like the DRM, there was active resistance against that.

The ones that just simply don't want to buy the game, are exactly that. People who aren't in the slightest bit interested if it has DRM on it or not because they have no intentions at all of buying the game and really just couldn't give a toss. Lets face it the reviews have been less than stunning and this surely would put a lot of prospective buyers off.

If they don't care, they won't be posting here.

The way you put it, it's like saying "People who don't watch football are holding out", but that's completely ignoring the fact that maybe some of these people just wouldn't go to see a football match, even if the best players in the world were playing 5 a side at the end of their street for free. It's not holding out, it's a lack of interest.

No, that's really not the way I put it. To correct your football analogy with my reasoning it would be:

Football Fan A does not buy a ticket, because he is prevented from travelling to the game or entering the ground by the football club. Fan A does not buy a ticket, because he would be unable to enjoy the game.

Football Fan B does not buy a ticket, because some other people are prevented from travelling to the game or entering the football ground. Although Fan B could enjoy the game himself, he instead spends time posting on a bicycle repair forum about how they are finding holding out easy because the manager of the club doesn't know what he's doing and the players are all a bunch of overpaid ponces who would only run after a football if it had a Hello! magazine contract attached to it. The club's going downhill and it won't be long until the club is relegated and that means bye bye fat TV contract and hello bankrupcy and in the mean time he's going back to watching cricket, where they play properly.

That's correct. I want to buy the game but I'm waiting. Holding out describes me exactly.

More so until you get a better gaming machine though right?

[M4XDmG]

I understand why people won't by this game with DRM. I (and many others I read) wasn't able to sign in and play last evening when I was trying to play SH5 after a hard day at work. And in that five minutes when I couldn't start the game, I realized how terrible thing it is to prevent gamebuyers to play their game they've payed for already! I was pissed of. But when I got my game running after that five minutes, I also realized how much those people, who won't play the game because of DRM, are missing...

This game with proper mods is something to wait for after that hard day at work!

[robbo180265]

Yet more name calling

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w181/robbo180265/facepalmsub.jpg

[Nisgeis]

Was that not his sig then?

[Takeda Shingen]

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/9/4/633876542927413685-FANBOY.jpg

Do you have something productive to add, or is this just another tantrum? I do grow so weary of the later. This thread has near run it's course so, I'll add my own picture now.

http://images.free-extras.com/pics/s/squirrels-489.jpg

Danger, Will Robinson.

The Management

[Hanomag]

Im still "holding out".... :salute:

Actually in October.. "Fallout New Vegas" is coming out... :woot:

No DRM necessary... just my Xbox...

As much as I love my PC and Silent Hunter.. well a previous version anyways.. Its just easier to pop in a disc and just blast away... :rock:

[THE_MASK]

Im still "holding out".... :salute:

Actually in October.. "Fallout New Vegas" is coming out... :woot:

No DRM necessary... just my Xbox...

As much as I love my PC and Silent Hunter.. well a previous version anyways.. Its just easier to pop in a disc and just blast away... :rock:Both my kids have xbox and they wont use it unless they are on live :O:

[Sailor Steve]

@ DeadlyWolf:

I can hardly be considered a 'fanboy', since I haven't bought the game myself.

The point you apparently missed was that we had just had a member speak for all of us when he said Due to the way the thread is titled, it seems as if it's an invitation to keep bashing the game, e.g. 'I've still not bought the game because it still sucks.'. Well, wow, who'd have thought that with no new patch, that your opinion of a game you've never played, still hasn't changed. I'm amazed people think they need to tell us this.

And then one of our most respected members quoted that post, and agreed with it. And just a couple of posts later you came along and said And what I've got? Idiotic drm, huge gameplay flaws (the "RPG" system? Please don't make me laugh), bugs, and especially a shameful communuty support (the "patch", if you dare call it that, and the communication)

I probably won't buy SH5 even without DRM (I'd honestly prefer to donate to subsim or the modding comm), and without any doubt I'm done with UBISOFT.

To reiterate: Moceefus's *sigh* and my agreement had nothing to do with your expressed sentiments. You are perfectly entitled to those. What they had to do with was the fact that just a couple of posts after people said how tired we all are of people saying nothing more useful than "I won't buy the game because it sux", you come along and say "I won't buy the game because it sux!"

So we commented on the fact that you apparently didn't read the thread before making your own comment, and your only reply is to call us names.

That is why you're getting all the commentary now.



@ robbo180265: An SH5 facepalm! Gotta love it! :rock:

[peteuplink]

Well, I took your advice and looked up on that there internet what 'holding out' meant and much to my surprise, it actually meant exactly what I thought it did. It doesn't mean 'waiting for' it means to continue to resist something.

If someone is not buying the game because the DRM would not allow them to play it, so they couldn't run it, then that's a perfectly sensible thing to do. If someone is able to run the game, but has not bought it, then that person has made that choice to not buy a game they could play and they can be said to be holding out. Usually the update on the 'holdout' is usually along the lines of:

I'm holding out quite nicely thankyou. SH5 is the buggiest game ever and the war only goes upto 1943. Seriously who set it so you can't dive your boat if you are on the bridge... etcetera.

So, you can see that simple update just turns into a bash of SH5.

If people want to post 'I'm still holding out because I have iron will and have taken an oath to never buy a product with DRM' then fine. Very few posts are along those lines though.

When it was suggested people actually tell Ubisoft that they didn't like the DRM, there was active resistance against that.



If they don't care, they won't be posting here.



No, that's really not the way I put it. To correct your football analogy with my reasoning it would be:

Football Fan A does not buy a ticket, because he is prevented from travelling to the game or entering the ground by the football club. Fan A does not buy a ticket, because he would be unable to enjoy the game.

Football Fan B does not buy a ticket, because some other people are prevented from travelling to the game or entering the football ground. Although Fan B could enjoy the game himself, he instead spends time posting on a bicycle repair forum about how they are finding holding out easy because the manager of the club doesn't know what he's doing and the players are all a bunch of overpaid ponces who would only run after a football if it had a Hello! magazine contract attached to it. The club's going downhill and it won't be long until the club is relegated and that means bye bye fat TV contract and hello bankrupcy and in the mean time he's going back to watching cricket, where they play properly.



More so until you get a better gaming machine though right?

You've missed the point entirely.

Taking your football fans: Fan A cannot attend the game because he can't get there so wouldn't waste the money on a ticket. But if he won an all expenses paid trip to see his favorite team play, with transport laid on so he doesn't have to travel, he'd willingly go, because he is a football fan.

Fan B is in a similar situation. He won't buy a ticket because other people are prevented from attending the game, and he doesn't want to go on his own, so he boycotts the game. But if he won an all expense paid trip, with laid on transport, and the opportunity to bring his mates who can't ordinarily attend, he'd take it, because he is a football fan.

Both of these examples are football fans. But again you've not considered person C: someone who isn't a football fan. Sure they may glance at the back page of the newspaper from time to time, but they don't have any real interest in the sport, and wouldn't attend a match even if they did get the aforementioned all expenses paid trip to a match. This person isn;t holding out by not attending the match, he just isn't that bothered because football isn't for him. He may watch something similar like Rugby, but not football.

So lets put these into Sh5 terms:

Fan A: would be people who want the game, but their PC can't run it. (either for hardware of DRM reasons) and are waiting til they get a PC capable of running it.

Fan B: would be people who want the game but refuse to buy it because of the DRM, and are waiting for it to be removed.

Person C: Would be people that just aren't interested. That would be me. I have no intentions of buying SH5, not because of the DRM, or the fact that my PC is nearly 10 years old and struggles to run SH4. Nope, none of that. I've not interest in buying SH5 because I've seen it in action at my friends house, I've read multiple reviews of it, and I've heard all the reports of bugs and other problems. I admit when the game was first announced I was interested, but once I found out more about it, I decided that it wasn't for me. I may have a passing interest in how the game is progressing (like the guy who occasionally glances at the football scores in the back of the newspaper), and to this end, when I visit the SH3 and SH4 forums, I drop by the SH5 forum out of curiosity, but that's as far as my interest goes.

I'm not holding out. I just quite frankly don't care, and wouldn't have even bothered posting again if you hadn't misunderstood my meaning.

[Nisgeis]

You've missed the point entirely.

No, I haven't. You're just using a poor analogy to argue the point. The concept of 'needing a stable internet connection to play a game' and 'not having a stable internet connection' is quite a simple concept and really does not need a bad analogy to muddy the waters. Here, I'll show you:

Taking your football fans: Fan A cannot attend the game because he can't get there so wouldn't waste the money on a ticket. But if he won an all expenses paid trip to see his favorite team play, with transport laid on so he doesn't have to travel, he'd willingly go, because he is a football fan.

Taking your football fans: Fan A cannot play the game because he doesn't have an internet connection so wouldn't waste the money on the game. But if he won a free copy of the game, with free installation of a stable internet connection capable of playing the game, he'd willingly play, because he is subsim fan.

Fan B is in a similar situation. He won't buy a ticket because other people are presented from attending the game, and he doesn't want to go on his own, so he boycotts the game. But if he won an all expense paid trip, with laid on transport, and the opportunity to bring his mates who can't ordinarily attend, he'd take it, because he is a football fan.

Fan B is in a completely different situation. He won't buy a ticket because other people are prevented from playing the game, and he doesn't want to play on his own even though there are lots of other people already playing, so he boycotts the game. But if he won a stable internet connection, which he already has and a stable internet connection for all his mates, some of which also already have a stable internet connection, he'd play it, because he is a subsim fan.

Both of these examples are football fans. But again you've not considered person C: someone who isn't a football fan. Sure they may glance at the back page of the newspaper from time to time, but they don't have any real interest in the sport, and wouldn't attend a match even if they did get the aforementioned all expenses paid trip to a match. This person isn;t holding out by not attending the match, he just isn't that bothered because football isn't for him. He may watch something similar like Rugby, but not football.

Both of these examples are subsim fans. But again you've not considered person C: someone who isn't a subsim fan. Sure they may glance at the subsim forums from time to time, but they don't have any real interest in the genre, and wouldn't play a subsim even if they did get the aforementioned stable internet connection which they possibly already have anyway. This person isn't holding out by not playing the game, he just isn't that bothered because subsims aren't for him. He may play something similar like XBox's ZOMG Zombie Eliminator, but not a subsim.

They aren't likely to post here then are they, so why are we discussing them?

So lets put these into Sh5 terms:

Fan A: would be people who want the game, but their PC can't run it. (either for hardware of DRM reasons) and are waiting til they get a PC capable of running it.

If your PC cannot run a game, that's not related to DRM.

Fan B: would be people who want the game but refuse to buy it because of the DRM, and are waiting for it to be removed.

Yes, they are the 'hold out crowd'. Those that can play, but choose not to.

Person C: Would be people that just aren't interested. That would be me. I have no intentions of buying SH5, not because of the DRM, or the fact that my PC is nearly 10 years old and struggles to run SH4. Nope, none of that. I've not interest in buying SH5 because I've seen it in action at my friends house, I've read multiple reviews of it, and I've heard all the reports of bugs and other problems. I admit when the game was first announced I was interested, but once I found out more about it, I decided that it wasn't for me. I may have a passing interest in how the game is progressing (like the guy who occasionally glances at the football scores in the back of the newspaper), and to this end, when I visit the SH3 and SH4 forums, I drop by the SH5 forum out of curiosity, but that's as far as my interest goes.

And there we have it! The inevitable bash. What have all of those negative comments got to do with 'holding out'? By your own submissions, you are not holding out, so you are only posting in this thread to bash SH5. As I said, I have no objection to people who complain that the DRM is stopping them from playing, but I do object to using this thread as a means to bash SH5 by those that have no intention of buying it.

This is a good community, made great by it's members and we don't need so much negativity. Negativity is infectious and if it's not battled it will take hold and infect everything. We have had lots of examples of people who just post to bash, so when someone says 'I can't start the game, what did I do wrong?' among the helpful replies, you get one who says 'You bought the game, you moron, that's what you did wrong. All you idiots desrve everything you get'. That's really not helpful. Although if it was a simple 'You bought the game?' then that would be humurous. Depending on which way the wind was blowing.

I'm not holding out. I just quite frankly don't care, and wouldn't have even bothered posting again if you hadn't misunderstood my meaning.

I completely understood the meaning of your post. You chose a poor analogy and then went way beyond the scope of the analogy making it absurd. Choosing an analogy is like choosing a car. Get the wrong car and you won't be able to put scaffolding poles in the back, because what you really needed was an estate. Oh, that didn't really help to explain did it... perhaps that was a bad anaology?

As I said, the concepts we are dealing with are not so complex as to require analogies to cars or football matches. Who'd buy a car with no steering wheel? Well, no one, obviously so that's a poor analogy. Everyone here is capable of understanding what is being discussed and can discuss it calmly.

[codmander]

not a penny more than $9.99. current price $19.00 so a ways to go yet maybe drm will be gone by then also sh3 still rocks.....untill:salute:

[mookiemookie]

. Everyone here is capable of understanding what is being discussed and can discuss it calmly.

I never did understand why everyone on this forum is so obsessed with analogies. 99.9% of the time when someone starts out a sentence with "It's just like..." you can bet that it's absolutely nothing like what they're about to say.

SH5 is not a car without a steering wheel. It's not a football match. It's not <insert game title here>. It's SH5.

Analogies suck. I have as much contempt for them as I do for "immersion."

[Takao]

At this time,that is $9.99 too much.

I was hoping for an add-on with the Type XI and XXI, however, Ubisoft has stopped supporting the game, so there isn't even a third patch planned.

So, take me off the hold-out list, as I have no interest in the game any more. Besides, I have SHIII & IV, so I don't really see the need to get V. Aside of the pretty graphics, SHV has less to offer than the other two. Well, I'll play but only if I get a free copy from a friend, but that is not likely to happen.

Besides with Starcraft II just days away and Civilization V a month or two away, I have to keep cash handy to purchase them.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Man, I'm waiting for Ubi to bring out that new Oleg Maddox Battle of Britain flight sim. They better not screw THAT one up.

[GerritJ9]

UBI won't be distributing Oleg's BOB- that much is definite, though it is not known who will. Presumably UBI did several things to annoy 1C, such as the IL2 4.05m + Boonty Box fiasco, plus putting the Grumman name on the "Pacific Fighters" box and passing Grumman's bill on to 1C even though the fault was UBI's.

[Takao]

Don't worry it will be released in "two weeks":D

[krashkart]

Perhaps it is best to move forward with what we have, rather than pine for what we do not have. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Perhaps it is best to move forward with what we have, rather than pine for what we do not have. :yep:

Precisely http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Wulfmann]

As I have said this is easy for me. My Game PC is not online. I can not play SH5 unless they release a version that does not require being online.

That said recent comments on manner of play also concern me.

HuntertzehnGustav and I have banged heads but we both have a high expectation of accuracy and realism and I respect his position. If he says it has serious play problems than I have to listen up so maybe even with DRM removed I have to reconsider if I will buy it..

I am looking forward to Oleg's BoB a subject I have had much experience in with CFS3.
Bob, did you ever load ETO in CFS3? If so there is an updated BoB for it.

I put my Uboat in the shipyards and sent the crew on leave in early 1943 in my present SH# GWX3 campaign. I bought the entire Battlestar Galactica on DVD and have been watching that till I get a longing for the smell of the ocean again.

Wulfmann

[Nisgeis]

Besides with Starcraft II just days away and Civilization V a month or two away, I have to keep cash handy to purchase them.

Starcraft II is great fun, I started playing it about four months ago and it's quite addictive. Only played multiplayer though.

[Zedi]

Starcraft II is great fun, I started playing it about four months ago and it's quite addictive. Only played multiplayer though.

Wut?! SC2 is released from already 4 months?! O.O

[Nisgeis]

Wut?! SC2 is released from already 4 months?! O.O

Nope, I got a beta key in February. :rock:

[Takao]

Yeah, my co-worker was in on the beta. From what he was allowed to tell me, I can say is it will be a must have game.

[Destraex]

dow1 and 2 are easily better from the sc2 footage I have seen. COH is easily the best of them all.
The story may be a bit of fun though. It sure is no supcom though

[Zedi]

Nothing can beat a Blizzard game :O: Personally I wait for SC2 then Cataclysm..

[Destraex]

lets see compared to COH.

terrain allows no cover - no smart advantage allowed
terrain is not deformable - no smart advantage allowed
Squads do not exist like in coh so no formations or smart use of terrain.
maps seem to consist of high and low cliffs and choke points.
Animations and fights look like a stand around and shoot in a line contest. U know like the last line up at a paint ball match.
The unit list is simplistic at best...
Combat is so fast you either have units or u don't. No time to adjust a plan once commited. Although some ridiculous micro chases seem to happen.
Most units I actually think look ugly. I cannot seem to identify with any of them.
I would not recognise any of these starcraft 2 matches as anything other than light recon skirmishes due to the extreme small numbers involved. When somebody attacks their may be 20 units involved. That is not even the officers in a regular battalion. So Starcraft certainly is not what I would call an epic game.

I would call it twitch chess. Or like watching a game of 5yr old soccer. Masses of men running around in a ball.

I guess I have been spoiled by Company of Heroes. Starcraft2 will be ok. It is what it is.

[Takeda Shingen]

Take it to the General Games Discussion forum. There is already a thread about it there.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=177

The Management

[Nisgeis]

At least it made the squirrel go away :DL.

[Myxale]

Not holding out of sheer spite against DRM. But of the sheer unpractical-ness it creates for me and many users. Sure, in the end it's the same.:nope:

Can't afford to stay connected 24/7; can't afford to stay home 24/7, since i travel a lot and modern laptops have proven to be as capable when it comes to gamin as pc's.

I have my share of Favorite Games installed on the Notebook and i game whenever i have time. SH3 i one of them.

So...still waiting...in vain...

[John Channing]

At least it made the squirrel go away :DL.

Yeah, but you know what attracts squirrels?



Nuts!



And there are plenty if those here!

JCC

[Sailor Steve]

HEY! Quit talking about me that way!

[Jimbuna]

HEY! Quit talking about me that way!


LOL :DL

Calm down, have a drink and put this nice warm jacket on, it'll make you feel a lot better http://imgcash5.imageshack.us/img144/2637/strokingheadov1.gif

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FebFCfbHpfM/R6UfYCyZJnI/AAAAAAAAAG4/Rv3p9pMCFBE/s400/crazy_man_straight_jacket_lg_wht.gif

[Rockin Robbins]

Strokingheadov1.gif duly stolen, Sir!:arrgh!:

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah, but you know what attracts squirrels?



Nuts!



And there are plenty if those here!

JCC

I have a couple. :O:

[Jimbuna]

Strokingheadov1.gif duly stolen, Sir!:arrgh!:


Your welcome

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3464/thgenie9hyoj8.gif

[Jimbuna]

I have a couple. :O:

Just checking I've still got mine...or that you haven't took em!

http://www.mothersover40.com/files/animated_bloke_scratching_balls.gif

[RickC Sniper]

Sorry Tak, I couldn't resist. :D


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/RickC/bigsquirrel.jpg

[Takeda Shingen]

Sorry Tak, I couldn't resist. :D


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/RickC/bigsquirrel.jpg

:haha: :up:

[John Channing]

I have a couple. :O:

Currently...

[Sailor Steve]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt8SLJ6C288

[Venatore]

Just brought SHV online for $50:00 AUS, I've heard about all the issues with the game, I can't just sit here and let SHV become a dust collector, so once the game arrives and I figure out the folder structure, I'll start burning the candle from both ends to produce eye candy and SFX mods.

Look for the thread called "Venatore's Mod Bunker" this is where I'll upload all my mods similar to my SHIII Thread called "Venatore's Drive Through".

Hopefully this game works on Laptops.....if not; I'll be pissed!

Kind Regards

Venatore (U657)

[THE_MASK]

Just brought SHV online for $50:00 AUS, I've heard about all the issues with the game, I can't just sit here and let SHV become a dust collector, so once the game arrives and I figure out the folder structure, I'll start burning the candle from both ends to produce eye candy and SFX mods.

Look for the thread called "Venatore's Mod Bunker" this is where I'll upload all my mods similar to my SHIII Thread called "Venatore's Drive Through".

Hopefully this game works on Laptops.....if not; I'll be pissed!

Kind Regards

Venatore (U657) What specs is your laptop ?

[mikeydredd]

I was under the impression that this thread was for the hold-out gang. of which I am still a member. UbiSoft aren't going to get a penny out of this working man's pocket.

And without wishing to be po-faced about this game and cetainly not wishing to belittle the losses u-boat crews suffered in the war, let's please remind ourselves of the absolutely vile regime those losses went to support and thank god that they failed.

Better them than us....

[Rockin Robbins]

Your welcome

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3464/thgenie9hyoj8.gif

Oh, THIS is where I say thank you!http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/smileys/clueless.gif

[robbo180265]

And without wishing to be po-faced about this game and cetainly not wishing to belittle the losses u-boat crews suffered in the war, let's please remind ourselves of the absolutely vile regime those losses went to support and thank god that they failed.
Better them than us....

And I think it worth remembering that rather than supporting the "vile regime" most were conscripted into service to fight for their country. I don't suppose it takes much imagination to work out what that "vile regime" would have done to their families had they refused.

I also think it worth noting that (in my opinion) most of us are now grown up enough to be able to remember all the dead on all sides of the war come remembrance Sunday, along with giving thanks that the "vile regime" never succeeded.

[Gairith]

Sorry Tak, I couldn't resist. :D


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/RickC/bigsquirrel.jpg

ROFLMBO!! Priceless. . .

[mikeydredd]

@ Robbo -

I think you will find that U-Boat crews, throughout the war, were predominently volunteers, of which there was never a shortage. And their families were very happy to bask in the reflected glory of their well publicised exploits.

Prien himself, to name one, has been described as an "ardent" supporter of nazism and Adolph Hitler.

I doubt very much if Germany had "won" WW2 the Nazi regime would have been as accomodating in remembering the war dead of its opponents.

So let's try and keep this all in perspective.

Dredd :arrgh!:

[longam]

Distribution sales is no secret.

Companies acquire production from distributors then mark it up and sell it for a profit (walmart, amazon, ect). At the end of the life cycle or slow sales, they mark it down to eliminate the inventory (bargain bin).

Even if you 'hold out' as you say, UBI has already received their profit. If the product sells good, of course more will be ordered but the only problem with that is they distribute all over the world, at different intervals, so the profit stream stays steady.

People will be buying this game for years to come, just like SH3 and SH4.

[Méo]

most of us are now grown up enough to be able to remember all the dead on all sides of the war come remembrance Sunday, along with giving thanks that the "vile regime" never succeeded.

Well said.

Looks like this subject will always come back...

Sailors & soldiers are more likely to be influenced & manipulated young men rather than real nazi.

So as long as Goebbels or Himmler is not on board, I'm fine.

[robbo180265]

@ Robbo -

I think you will find that U-Boat crews, throughout the war, were predominently volunteers, of which there was never a shortage. And their families were very happy to bask in the reflected glory of their well publicised exploits.

Prien himself, to name one, has been described as an "ardent" supporter of nazism and Adolph Hitler.

I doubt very much if Germany had "won" WW2 the Nazi regime would have been as accomodating in remembering the war dead of its opponents.

So let's try and keep this all in perspective.

Dredd :arrgh!:

I hardly think Prien was your typical Uboat crew member

"Only one of the prisoners was a rabid Nazi and he kept repeating, "England kaput," (finished). All the Germans were young. The average age was 22 in the oldest was 26. Only one was a volunteer; the rest where conscripts. All had the impression that Canadians were either cowboys for Indians."

http://timetraces.ca/nene/war_service/19_germans_rescued_feb_24_1944.htm

But I agree I've found it quite difficult to find out whether they were conscripted or volunteered as a whole. I would imagine that volunteering for the U boats was preferable to being conscripted for the army (especially with the propaganda of the time - the hero's of the U boat films etc). Logic tells me however, that as the war progressed and the uboat losses mounted, it would have been impossible to crew the boats with just volunteers (the link above reinforces that)

Perhaps someone here knows the definitive answer as to whether U boat crews were drafted or not?


The point I'm trying to convey to you is that, in my opinion the German force (with notable exceptions) was made up of men not too different from you or me. They were just unlucky enough to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time , and fed propaganda until they were old enough to fight.


Which nicely brings me back to this:



I also think it worth noting that (in my opinion) most of us are now grown up enough to be able to remember all the dead on all sides of the war come remembrance Sunday, along with giving thanks that the "vile regime" never succeeded.

[BarjackU977]

Robbo,

I didn't live during those times, and I'm no historian.

That said, I wonder how to consider that: "most were not nazi". I heard/read so about the Luftwaffe, about the land army, about the Kriegsmarine, about Werhmacht officers in general.

Yet, the nazis got general support from the population, at least initially. So how do the two fit together exactly, I wonder.

Will have to read more on that.

[Venatore]

I was under the impression that this thread was for the hold-out gang. of which I am still a member. UbiSoft aren't going to get a penny out of this working man's pocket.

You stay there mate while I and other modders try to enhance the game for you, as for your other comment....

And without wishing to be po-faced about this game and cetainly not wishing to belittle the losses u-boat crews suffered in the war, let's please remind ourselves of the absolutely vile regime those losses went to support and thank god that they failed.

Better them than us....

Comments like this may cause trouble. This is your opinion, but; please keep this type of thought to yourself. There are many nataionalities here as members including those members from Germany...

[mikeydredd]

Everything I have read points to these people being "predominently" volunteers, right up until the end of the war. And there was "never a shortage" of them.

Let's also remember Grand Admiral Karl Donitz, their chief, became Fuhrer of Germany on Hitler's death. At the end of the war, among other things, he was happy to provide serving SS men with naval uniforms in an attempt to circumvent justifiable allied retribution. Indeed the commandant of Auschwitz, surely a name that you would acknowledge as being synonimous with this vile regime, was provided with the papers and disguise of a bosun's mate. "Donitz's behaviour during his brief, grotesque masquerade as the last Fuhrer makes a mockery of delusions that he was a mere naval officer who fell into bad company".

My mother, who was a sixteen year old schoolgirl in 1936, was on holiday in Germany and well remembers a nazi rally attended by thousands of everyday ordinary Germans, and how absolutely mad they all went when some Nazi functionary turned up, let alone der fuhrer.

You may feel some kinship with these people, I am happy to feel none.

Dredd :arrgh!:

[Reece]

@ Venatore, hi old friend, how are you doing? I'm in the holdout crew as well as many others, for one thing, where I live in country S.A., a permanent online connection is out for me, I live too far from the local exchange to get a good connection, besides this I'm against this type of DRM, I think it is prejudice against those who cannot get good broadband connection, I live only 120km from Adelaide and most of the towns here don't have broadband at all, so kinda sucks!!:oops: I am waiting, may take a year or so, for DRM free copies to hit the shelves! Well hoping anyway!:yep:
Cheers.

[Zedi]

Mikey, things were very different at that time. Nazi regim was fu't up, but more fu't up was the severe recession and the political and economical situation in Germany. For years already there was no hope for a better life. This is the right time when the extremist and nationalist movements can go high up in poll and win the tired and hopeless people trust. My half family is german so I know a little about how was to be a german around 35-38.

Trust me, when ur starving, u have no job and a way to support you and ur family.. u will get really desperate and u will take any chance available to survive the next day. And this H. dude was a damn good politician and also a great nationalist. He promissed the german people a bright future where nobody will have to cry again because they dont have what to eat, where to work, to be ashamed being a german etc. If u try to read main kampf, u may understand his philosophy and even appreciate it. What happened after he became cancelar and war started.. now, that's a whole different story. These things happens even today, how many time ur politician won ur trust by selling false hopes and dreams.. then after he got elected, gives a sh1t about u and his country.

The good part was that all ended in only 5 year. After that the whole western world and Germany was living in paradise and into a booming economy. The sad part was.. the eastern world collapsed into a genuine hell for ages. All those crimes and crap what happened in those 5 year during ww2 were nothing compared to what the commies did in all east europe for decades. The nazis got nailed, judged and hunted only after 5 years, the commies are still living and running great business without being punished in any way. Now how's this justice...

Anyway, point is that the people is last to be judged, even if they were serving a false cause. And Kriegsmarine was not SS or .. like the most brutal army in the world.. the soviets.

[Takeda Shingen]

We're far off topic, and this thread has outlived whatever dubious usefulness it had. Closed.

The Management