[REQ] info on periscope graticule

[Arclight]

Currently the graticule is only visible in the low power magnification, and disappears when going to high power magnification. My question is: is this correct?

As far as I can tell, it should in fact be visible under any magnification, though I can't seem to confirm it definitively. :hmmm:

[karamazovnew]

In SH3 and SH4 the "reticule" was hardcoded to always show the degrees of FOV. It dynamically changed at game start based on your camera settings: Angular Distance and the first zoom level in the list.

Hitman found out that the best way to remove it was to put the 6X zoom first in the list followed by the 1.5X zoom. All custom made reticles had to be hand drawn and depended on the modder's camera settings.
One other funny thing was that any item that you placed inside the Periscope Marks group would light up at night (change color) based on the alpha channel.

For some reason SH5 has 2 bugs:
1. usually when you enter a "periscope" station, the zoom is set initially to something like 0.5X, making the reticule very small.
2. as you've noted, lines now change every time you change the zoom level. One could mistake this for a "feature" if the lines wouldn't just disappear because of the very small periscope field.

[Bilge_Rat]

I have no hard info, but presume it would have been available on both magnifications, since that is the only way the commander could determine the range.


http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/elect/img/pershot.jpg

US fleet boat.

are there any photos around? all the ones I have seen are from the US side. US periscopes had an attachment to take photos. I presume U-boats did not have that?

[Arclight]

So it is safe to conclude that the marks should be there on high power magnification?

I'm thinking about drawing the marks by hand on the 'mask' file, and combine it with the changes I made to the zoom and elevation levels, and my colour filter. Aim is to provide a scope with realistic characteristics and that looks authentic.

Big problem is that I have no way to determine where to place the marks, apart from a direct copy of what we currently see in 1x zoom.

Second problem is determining the correct angular FOV and tweaking the view to correspond.

Don't have the math skills to solve either problem, but let's leave it for later. First gonna try and create something that looks the part. :hmmm:



Thanks for the replies, much appreciated. :salute:

Any more info would still be appreciated of course, still a few problems to solve. ;)

[Hitman]

There is a dossier about german optics and periscopes including pictures as documentation in my SH3 optics mod, you can find all info you need there.

So far I must say that the periscope view in german propaganda films and in Das Boot seems to be non-historical, and probably just a fake for filming purposes. Pictures of true periscope manuals show a very different reticle, though of course the one shown in Das Boot could have been used in true life. But so far any and all pictures I have seen did NOT have that one.

The reticle has a vertical scale in milliradians (10 milliradians = 5.71 degrees) on the left side, and a horizontal one in degrees in the lower part. And yes, you should be able to add it into the Alpha channel and superimpose it to the existing (incorrect) one.

[Arclight]

Yes, that's what this one seems to indicate as well: http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570BritishReport.htm

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/Grat.jpg
But without any images, I'm afraid my imagination falls painfully short. :lol:

Gonna have a look at the documentation you mentioned, thanks. :yep:

[Bilge_Rat]

Hitman, do you have a link for your sh3 optics mod? I can't seem to find it.

[emtguf]

Ive actually been working on this, and have a thread here about it somewhere.

I have the graticule scaled correctly for low power setting 1.5x but not so much at 6x.
I am assuming something in the cameras.cam file is wrong so Ive just been playing with it trying to get it right.

If you use the one included with SH5 to establish range you will however find it is incorrect.

[Arclight]

Hitman, do you have a link for your sh3 optics mod? I can't seem to find it.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1519 ;)
Ive actually been working on this, and have a thread here about it somewhere.

I have the graticule scaled correctly for low power setting 1.5x but not so much at 6x.
I am assuming something in the cameras.cam file is wrong so Ive just been playing with it trying to get it right.

If you use the one included with SH5 to establish range you will however find it is incorrect.
Think it's a problem with then angular FOV, and maybe you'll need to tweak the viewport settings as well. :doh:

God I wish I'd payed more attention during math. :-?

[Hitman]

I have the graticule scaled correctly for low power setting 1.5x but not so much at 6x.

The graticule was fixed for 1.5x zoom, it didn't change at all when switching to 6x.

1.5x was used in german (And US, and British) periscopes because that magnification gave the better feeling of the natural size of objects when looking with naked eye. That helped considerably estimating distance to them and keeping a good picture of the tactical situation. High power zoom in turn was used just for identifying details and gathering info about the target, never for estimating distance.

From the UBoat Commander's Handbook:

130.) For computing the range, the 1 magnification should be used in the periscope. With the 6-fold magnification, no estimation of distance is possible, on account of the monocular optical system of the periscope.
As a matter of principles the 6-fold magnification of the periscope should always only be used temporarily, in order the better to observe details of the enemy ship, as, for example, in computing its course and speed, but never for the actual attack at close range.


Interestingly, the US periscopes were actually set for using at 6x :)

The reason is that prewar doctrine considered it too difficult to approach an escroted target because of ASDIC, and submarines were thus expected to shoot from extreme ranges (In itself the reason why the fantastic american TDC was developed). In the US periscopes, like the picture shown above by Bilge_Rat, the big mark corresponds to 1 degree, the small ones to 1/4th of a degree at 6x magnification (Thus the divisions seen)

[Mav87th]

Arclight and Emtguf (or Hitman as I know you already made this for SH-III). I think we all three are looking for the same thing. A historically correct periscope mod for SH-5. Graticules, zoom, field of view etc.


ps. Hitman check PM please


I have a camera.dat file where i have the correct view in x1.5 and x6, but its based on the stock periscope image view-port. It took very little time to make that and you guys can have it if you want to have a look on it (or use it).

If you guys can provide me with a new view-port (bigger hole perhaps, and definitely historically correct graticule's like Hitman's SH-3 mod) then i can adjust the camera.dat file to suit that in a day or two. I guess what that takes is a modified "Page attack periscope.ini" and "Page obs periscope.ini" and a couple of DDS or tga files.

My dream is a periscope hole that only have a little black on the top and bottom of the screen (big hole) so the resolution of the image is as big as possible. The graticule on the alpha layer to be historically correct for obs and attack peri in both x1.5 and x6 (like your old SH-3 mod Hitman).

But I need someone to make the graphical layout and menu editions so the view-port is changed. I'm no eagle with menu editing.....:damn:

If you still can not find Hitman's SH-3 mod i have it saved here for a desperate attempt of doing the menu editing my self. But that would be in 2 years if no one have done it until then - that bad yea.....

[Arclight]

I already have a mod going as well that makes the changes to the zoom and elevation parameters (cameras.dat).

Also have an altered periscope mask ready with the graticules drawn on it. At the standard 1.5x zoom, the hardcoded ones aren't visible to begin with, problem is the markings are a direct copy.

Actually, don't know if it's bad, haven't tested yet. Maybe the original markings make sense once the base zoom is changed to 1.5x. :06:

:hmmm:

Here's the .dds, dont know if will be any good to anyone; http://www.filefront.com/15875575/Periscope_Mask_1024_SH5.dds/

[emtguf]

This is the one I have been working on.
It is very accurate with changes to the cameras.cam file at the 1.5x zoom level. If it doesnt need to be accurate at 6 then I guess it is done.

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/9669/sh5newperi.png

[Sailor Steve]

It looks good, and I like your 'multiplication' idea. It seems to work as it would have in real life.

[Arclight]

Aye, very nice. :yep:

What formula are you using for the calculations? Is it the same the Kaleuns used for real? :06:

[Hitman]

Invert the zoom order in cameras.dat and you'll get rid of the reticle. I.e. make the 6x the default zoom,and 1.5x the one you get when swtiching zoom. It worked for Sh3 and SH4 so I guess it should for Sh5.

ps. Hitman check PM please

Replied yesterday already :-?

I'm sorry I can't help further, but I don't have SH5 :down:

[Mav87th]

Hitman thanks for the answer Hitman - as said I understand your reasoning...


Can anyone tell me what [Gxx...] should be changed to change the graphics of the periscope mask?


Hitman gave permission to use his SH-3 graphics and they are, if you may excuse me, very difficult to pass on as they are the most realistic I have ever seen.

Not dissin your graphics Empguf they are great too, but Hitmans are just really really good.

[Arclight]

You'll have to draw the markings on "Periscope_Mask_1024_SH5" in ..\Ubisoft\data\Menu\Skins\German\Gui\Layout

Guess you could scale Hitman's graphics to fit the the new mask, and then draw the marks on a new layer (kinda like papertracing, it's how I did the stock markings on mine). Once you have the marks drawn, remove the layer with Hitman's graphics, put the layer with the marks underneath the new mask, and merge those 2 layers. :hmmm:

I can give it a shot if you'd like, but shouldn't be too difficult. ;)

[Bilge_Rat]

I read the document Hitman prepared. It was most informative.

It will be great once we get this mod into the game. You can use the 6x zoom to identify the target and the 1.5x zoom to estimate range.

great work everyone.

[Hitman]

Here is the file I have been using in my WIP SH3 GUI:

http://www.mediafire.com/?4nm2zjwg03l

Comes in a TGA with Alpha Channel and all. You just need to either A) program the menu.ini in a manner that the image is overlayed as a mask or B) Copy and paste it overthe existing background TGA.

Whatever you do, use the current ingame reticle to ensure that the size is correct. You can compare the space between marks in my reticle and the one in the game, and resize the viewhole so they match. Otherwise the reticle will be useless.

Once installed, you can use the vertical marks to get range to target using following formula:

Target Heigth / Scale X 1000 = Range

The horizontal reticle is in degrees, and most useful for calculating torpedo spreads. Simply count the number of marks the target subtends, and set that value in your Salvo dial.

Good hunting :salute:

[Arclight]

Do we need to match up the horizontal or vertical scale to the stock one? :06:

(3 similar ideas, and Hitman does all the work. :lol: :salute:)

[Hitman]

Horizontal. The game's reticle comes in degrees both horizontally and vertically. But my reticle has degrees only horizontally.

Put the crosshair above the game's one, so that the originall one is no longer seen, and simply:

1) Adjust the circle of the periscope to my reticle, so that the border of the black circle matches the curved form of the graticle in the exterior

2) Adjust Angularangle in cameras.dat until the game's reticle is horizontally the same size as mine (In 1.5x zoom)

3) Change the zoom settings so that 6x is by default, and 1.5x the one you get when switching

[karamazovnew]

It's a bit harder than some think, because you need to combine 3 aspects:
1. the original marks are in degrees and they need to be outside the viewfinder
2. the periscope viewfinder doesn't take up the entire screen
3. the angular distance must somehow mimic the real periscope
Oh, and the miliradian marks should also take up a proportion of the viewfinder similar to the original ones.

I've already done all of this in KiUB. Camera settings, periscope marks and the periscope viefinder(hole). The marks are at a 1500x1500 resolution and they scale very well for lower resolutions. At 1600x1200 every pixel is displayed 1 to 1.
I've started from Hitman's layout but moved the horizontal scale above the center line because I liked to read horizontal and vertical size by moving the stadimeter image up. You can move it down in Photoshop in a minute.
Get the OMEGU Patch5, it has all the files you need and it's small. Just take the cameras.dat setting, the Ap_Marks.tga and the menu item itself, the alpha channel from the Periscope background image (Periscope_center.tga) and you're done.
To test it, place a few ships at 1000 meters and see if they line up ok at 1.5x zoom.
I advise against using any low resolution template done for SH3 because they'll look like crap at higher resolution.

[Mav87th]

Arclight if you do item #1

1) Adjust the circle of the periscope to my reticle, so that the border of the black circle matches the curved form of the graticle in the exterior.

Then ship it to me and ill do #2 and #3

2) Adjust Angularangle in cameras.dat until the game's reticle is horizontally the same size as mine (In 1.5x zoom)

3) Change the zoom settings so that 6x is by default, and 1.5x the one you get when switching

too me the last two items are a walk in the park while the first is next to impossible

[Arclight]

2) Adjust Angularangle in cameras.dat until the game's reticle is horizontally the same size as mine (In 1.5x zoom)There's a snag: game's reticule disappears at anything over 1x zoom, so can't match it up to 1.5x zoom. :hmmm:

Took a different approach, but don't know if it works: scaled Hitman's markings to the game's markings, and incorporated it into the default mask. Should have the same reult, as the ratios between the marks stays the same. :hmmm:

Ready for JSGME, just requires a cameras.dat to be dropped in the Library folder and it's complete: http://www.filefront.com/15881329/Authentic%20optics%20for%20SH5.zip

I'll follow instruction #1 and provide another one, but it's gonna cut down the viewable area quite bit (that TGA is 500x500)

[Arclight]

Here's dds according to that first instruction: http://www.filefront.com/15881717/Periscope_Mask_1024_SH5.dds

Adjust the circle of the periscope to my reticle, so that the border of the black circle matches the curved form of the graticle in the exterior.

[emtguf]

Using Hitman's marks scaled, and redrawn do not seem to work in SH5.
I used his marks as a guide when makign my first version, but could never get distance measurements to work out. Ended up trying several different method to get the marks calibrated at 1.5x and ended up using several methods.

Unfortunatly not as simple as just copy/paste

[Arclight]

It never is. :lol:

That's why I was asking for a way to calculate it, rather than the trial and error method.

[Hitman]

I just downloaded your Periscope Mask Arclight, and it seems to me correctly done. Theoretically, all that is needed now is to adjust the cameras.dat based on what is rendered on screen ... shouldn't be difficult :hmmm:

[Arclight]

Just timeconsuming. :lol:

Shouldn't it be possible to make it work when the marks are scaled up to fit the scope as well?

I mean, as long as the ratios between the marks remain the same, you should be able to find an angular field setting that works out properly. (I think)

[emtguf]

At the cameras.cam settings i am using setting the marks at 12 pixel seperation gets it right on target in game.

Getting this figure and the cam settings took a whole lot of loading/reloading the game to check distant differences with different angles.
Wish there was an easier way to check stuff in game.

If you want to get the spacings download the update to my mod and use the mark distances as I have them set.

[Mav87th]

How big is your viewable area Emtguf ?

We would like that as big as practicaly possible so the resolution of the scope is as big as possible.

Ill try later today to check all the above posted attempts and calibrate a camera.dat for each.