[TEC] Small-arms

[Safe-Keeper]

Okay, so in an early screenshot you see your crew on the forward deck by the deck gun, looking up at a large merchant with MP-40 in hand. Then there's this icon, as revealed by the Menu Editor:http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r292/safe-keeper/th_Gunner.jpg
Clearly there were initially plans for making your crewmen arm themselves, don't know for what purpose. Maybe there existed a feature that let players stop and seize enemy shipping, not that this was, to my knowledge, something u-boats did very often:03:.

Maybe it's something you can do when taking supplies from milk cows, just in case the cow is a captured boat full of US marines. But then there'd also need to be a "Set Enigma on fire" command:O:...

An old dream of mine is to approach a ship while surfaced, only to take fire not from deck guns, but from rifles, automatic weapons and rocket launchers wielded by the crew. Don't know how historically correct it'd be for this to happen, but would be cool to see in the case of resistance forces or whatnot.

[Sledgehammer427]

maaybe not great for submarines...but great for Hilfskreuzers or pocket battleships :03::D

[perisher]

I think the icon is for shooting the soup guy:D

[mookiemookie]

I believe that small arms fire was used to suppress gun crews on merchant ships. Just a guess.

[Safe-Keeper]

I believe that small arms fire was used to suppress gun crews on merchant ships. Just a guess.The loading screen talks about suppressing enemy merchant ships with your flak guns. I wonder if this actually has an effect, and if so, what the effect would be. Does it hinder the firing of their guns? Does it keep them from sending distress calls? Does it keep them from manoeuvring effectively? I swear I've had merchants try to ram me in SH5 -- maybe an effect of suppressing fire is that they have to keep their heads down and don't see you properly?

I think the icon is for shooting the soup guy:D No, it's the Detain Bernard at Gunpoint ability. Shuts him in the head so he doesn't interfere with the goings of the boat.

[perisher]

After giving it some thought, I think it's for a "Crimson Tide" scenario. The XO, tired of the Skipper ignoring his complaints about the crew peeing in his coffee, enlists the help of the Soup Guy to take over the boat.

Seriously though, how many small arms did a Type VII carry? I guess a pistol per officer, maybe 4 rifles, a couple of MP38s and an MG34? "Crimson Tide" suggests that US boats carry enough weapons to arm an infantry battalion. Personal experience in the RN (1972-1984) says a "Ton" Class Minesweeper, with a compliment of 34, carried 4 rifles, 2 SMGs and 4 pistols. The wartime British movie, "We Dive At Dawn", suggests that a wartime boat had plenty of rifles and a couple of Lewis Guns.

[LukeFF]

Seriously though, how many small arms did a Type VII carry? I guess a pistol per officer, maybe 4 rifles, a couple of MP38s and an MG34?.

I'm not sure on the VIIC, but a postwar study of the Type IX showed the standard small-arms configuration to consist of two K98s, 6 Pistols, and a 7.62mm machine gun (typically an MG34). Typically there would also be at least one MP40 on board.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

I just wonder what happened to the rest of the deck gun crew I was expecting due to those screen shots mentioned before. it was a huge dissapointment ( one of many) to find out it was the standard two men.:nope:

[Baleur]

Realism or not, if somalian pirates in real life can fire rifles, submachine guns and rpgs from small rafts at huge oil tankers, im sure some ww2 u-boats did the same in dire need of some extra firepower.
Heck, if a musketman in the 1800's could shoot at another ship while standing high up on the mast while the ship bobs from side to side, i'm pretty sure a proper navy in ww2 could do the same, even when standing on a surfaced u-boat :)

Granted, your deck gun would be far more effective, but since when has the military or navy ever said no to a few extra guns, small or not? ;)

It'd be an awesome mod idea, a few dudes with mp40's or rifles :)
Sure it would be useless versus a military vessel, but against a small lonely merchant that you dive up behind 50 meters away, it might be useful!

[java`s revenge]

What do you think of firing with a machinegun at a cabin of a merchant or destroyer.


Wasn`t that happened???:hmmm:

[Dowly]

...not that this was, to my knowledge, something u-boats did very often:03:.

Hmm... I remember reading from somewhere that early in the war they did stop ships to check their cargo and if they found "contraband" they would ask the crew to please get the F out and scuttle the ship. :hmmm:

Tho, it might be that I read that from the 'The honorable german' and that's a work of fiction. :hmmm:

EDIT: A-ha, here we are, from Uboat.net

26 May 1944. On 26 May, 1944, the U-boat stopped the neutral Portuguese passenger liner Serpa Pinto en route to Canada south of Bermuda. The Germans found contraband for the USA and Mexico aboard and men of military age belonging to enemy countries and Jewish refugees among the 200 passengers. All hands were ordered to abandon ship, but the BdU instructed the commander not to sink her. The crew and passengers were allowed to reboard the ship after 9 hours, but three died in the evacuation process. Two American passengers were taken prisoner and landed at Lorient (http://www.uboat.net/flotillas/bases/lorient.htm) on 22 June.It might this was something the devs though to include. There seems to be "surrender" and "abandon ship" strategies for the ships in one of the files. :hmmm:

[Mack674]

Im pretty sure arming the crews of the ships (even u-boats) was just as a precaution and was not really intended for any kind of offensive use.

I could see them being used in capture scenarios - like if the boat crew wanted to(and would expected to be) try and fight off someone capturing their boat or in a more extremely rare case, some kind of mutiny.

I don't know about the US but our (Canada) ships still carry small arms on board. "Just in case".

[SabreHawk]

Well there are small arms onboard in the conning tower, helmets too.

[Tronics]

Most likely used for small security detail for dropping off spies or whatnot in the shallows...maybe for 'prize' duty as well although I don't know if anyone in the OKM actually expected anyone to actually do it.

Although 'Boarders Away' would be rather awesome if someone could manage to manifest it in game.

[Dowly]

Guys, you really need to read the previous posts. What I quoted above is a FACT from a real life uboat. Ok, it's just one example of boarding an neutral ship but like I said I had read from somewher that it did happen.

And I'm drunk as a skunk too. :doh:

[tater]

Luke can likely answer, but it's sort of moot anyway unless SH5 changes how deck crew are addressed damage wise (on subs or ships).

[bigboywooly]

Early war the prize rules were observed where possible and some ships were indeed seized though most were sunk once the crew had left

and also brought in the Estonian S.S. "Hanonia", 2543 tons, as prize.Successes: U 41 brought in 2 Finnish ships from the North Sea as prize. No sinkings.U 30 entered port.
She sank:
S.S. "Blairlogic" 4,425 tons
S.S. "Fanad Head " 5,274 tons
Stopping "Fanad Head" nearly proved fatal for the boat. While the prize party was examining the ship, a/c appeared and the C.O. was faced with the problem of either taking unrestricted action or losing the prize party. He chose the first alternative and finally achieved all he wanted by skill and daring.
This case shows how very difficult it is for U-boats to have to act according to prize law, especially with a/c. They make themselves vulnerable and lose their strength, which lies in being able to surprise and to dive.http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB30248.htm

Aircover,arming of merchants etc made the prize rules unusable pretty soon - near the end of November\start Dec 39 - and War Order No 154 effectively ended the practice

Do not rescue any men; do not take them along; and do not take care of any boats of the ship. Weather conditions and proximity of land are of no consequence. Concern yourself only with the safety of your own boat and with efforts to achieve additional successes as soon as possible. We must be hard in this war. The enemy started the war iin order to destroy us, and thus nothing else mattershttp://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/05-09-46.asp

Though the Athenia incident put paid to it almost straight away

[gimpy117]

I would suppose they planned to have an MG-34 mounted. good for shooting at small craft and what not. its possible that it just wasn't really worth it in game because the MG-34 was really there to suppress boarding parties and gunning lifeboats. but since there are no boarding parties...and gunning survivors is taboo...its not in game

[Adam84]

After giving it some thought, I think it's for a "Crimson Tide" scenario. The XO, tired of the Skipper ignoring his complaints about the crew peeing in his coffee, enlists the help of the Soup Guy to take over the boat.

Seriously though, how many small arms did a Type VII carry? I guess a pistol per officer, maybe 4 rifles, a couple of MP38s and an MG34? "Crimson Tide" suggests that US boats carry enough weapons to arm an infantry battalion. Personal experience in the RN (1972-1984) says a "Ton" Class Minesweeper, with a compliment of 34, carried 4 rifles, 2 SMGs and 4 pistols. The wartime British movie, "We Dive At Dawn", suggests that a wartime boat had plenty of rifles and a couple of Lewis Guns.

You just reminded me of that great scene from Red October, "It's the goddam cook!" *que dramatic, distinctly red, sweaty shootout on nuclear sub* :yeah: