[REL] Revised engine telegraph

[Arclight]

Quick fix I made for myself to the text feedback in the message box for engine settings. Changed to something more familiar, for example "Extreme speed ahead!" becomes "All ahead flank".

This:

1010=All stop
1011=Dead Slow Ahead!
1012=Slow Speed Ahead!
1013=Half Speed Ahead!
1014=Full Speed Ahead!
1015=Extreme Speed Ahead!
1016=Minimum Speed Back!
1017=Back Slow!
1018=Back Normal!
1019=Back Emergency!

Is changed to this:

1010=All stop
1011=Ahead dead slow
1012=Ahead slow
1013=Ahead standard
1014=Ahead full
1015=Ahead flank
1016=Back dead slow
1017=Back slow
1018=Back full
1019=Back Emergency!


In menu.txt (..\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter 5\data\Menu)


Extract into JSGME "MODS" folder and enable.


Don't enable if JSGME reports that another mod already made changes to menu.txt, it will break the other mod.

If you feel adventurous, disable all mods and then make the changes listed above yourself, in the mod JSGME reported a conflict with.


DOWNLOAD (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1604) (33KB)

[Arclight]

Wrong forum?! How the heck did that happen? :lol:

Mod move please? :06:

[Nisgeis]

Wrong forum?! How the heck did that happen? :lol:

The answer is PEBKAC! Nice mod though, no more Ludicrous speed ahead with the tartan wake.

[tommyk]

PEBKAC, hahaha, nice one Nisgeis :)

[Dowly]

Thanks! :salute:

[Arclight]

My pleasure, just a tweak I made while working on some other stuff. Figured might as well upload it. :yep:


I had to ask. :roll: PEBKAC indeed. :lol:

[reaper7]

Nice one thanks, the small thing can make such a difference. :up:

[Bilge_Rat]

very nice, thanks

should'nt this be in the Mod section? :ping:

[Arclight]

Aye, kinda misposted. Still waiting for a mod to move it. :D

[Sailor Steve]

1011=All ahead 1/3
1012=All ahead 2/3
Would match SH3 better if it was

1011=All Ahead Slow
1012=All Ahead 1/3

Or find out what the real equivalents of the German terms are. Actually I think the version in the game now is pretty much a direct translation of the German terms, as weird as they seem to English-speakers.

[Frederf]

1010=All stop
1011=All ahead 1/3
1012=All ahead 2/3
1013=All ahead standard
1014=All ahead full
1015=All ahead flank
1016=All back 1/3
1017=All back 2/3
1018=All back full
1019=All back Emergency!

What do you think about changing some small capitalization, wording things? The "all" refers to the number of engines, but really we have no control over that and I think the voice .wav files don't actually speak the "all" except for "all stop." It's nice when the text matches the voice heard.

I'm guessing at what the english voice .wav files say since I have the German voices. I'm also trying to get the historical german terms used in there but it's tough going.

If the rest of the messages in the chat buffer don't use periods then I guess the propulsion orders shouldn't either. Either way "1/3" should be written out as "one-third" (and 2/3 "two-thirds").

1010=All stop.
1011=Ahead dead slow.
1012=Ahead slow.
1013=Ahead half.
1014=Ahead full.
1015=Ahead flank!
1016=Back slow.
1017=Back standard.
1018=Back full.
1019=All back emergency!

[Arclight]

Would match SH3 better if it was

1011=All Ahead Slow
1012=All Ahead 1/3

Or find out what the real equivalents of the German terms are. Actually I think the version in the game now is pretty much a direct translation of the German terms, as weird as they seem to English-speakers.
I agree, but I don't really appreciate the "extreme speed", nor the exclamation marks after every one. Besides, if you translate from German to English, it doesn't have to be literal; better imho to use proper terms.

If you find me a good picture of an engine telegraph, I'll use those terms. ;)
What do you think about changing some small capitalization, wording things? The "all" refers to the number of engines, but really we have no control over that and I think the voice .wav files don't actually speak the "all" except for "all stop." It's nice when the text matches the voice heard.

I'm guessing at what the english voice .wav files say since I have the German voices. I'm also trying to get the historical german terms used in there but it's tough going.

If the rest of the messages in the chat buffer don't use periods then I guess the propulsion orders shouldn't either. Either way "1/3" should be written out as "one-third" (and 2/3 "two-thirds").
Well there are several engines, so it seemed to make sense. And I removed the exclamation marks except for 'back emergency', seemed silly. To be honest, it's a straight rip from Sub Command. :lol:

No clue on English voices either.

Was just a quick fix, while working on other things. To you the same proposition: provide a clear picture of an engine telegraph, and it shall be done. :)

[The General]

Great work. For the 'ahead flank' order, have you used the wav file from SH3 or does the voice still say 'extreme speed ahead' and the text say 'all ahead flank'?

[Arclight]

Text change only. Using German voices myself, seem fine, just the text feedback seems a bit unnatural with the literal translation.

[Frederf]

The ones I have found have more entries than the game allows so it becomes confusing. Here's a fun one: http://thump01.pbase.com/t6/57/323457/4/74884359.85ibCcRU.jpg

Anyway, it'd be dumb to have the English voice (or German for that matter) speak aloud something other than what is in the text.

You might synthesize these two bits of information.
http://www.uboatarchive.net/KTBNotesPropulsion.htm
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/2556/telegraphecholot.jpg
and perhaps
Telegraph Speed R.P.M (type VII, MAN Diesel Engines)
Kleine Fahrt (dead slow) - 170
Langsame Fahrt (slow) - 240
Halbe Fahrt (slow) - 300
2x Halbe Fahrt (3/5) - 390
Grosse Fahrt (3/4) - 415
2x Grosse Fahrt (4/5) - 445
AK Fahrt (full) - 470

http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/derleitendeing/wiki/Development

[Highbury]

If you find me a good picture of an engine telegraph, I'll use those terms. ;)

What you have looks good for a 'common' US military telegraph of the day.

http://www.westsea.com/tsg3/itemlocker/06pixlocker/06-74.JPG

Of course that is not from a sub, but it does prove your terminology is not incorrect at all.

Thanks for the upload!

[Arclight]

Aye, but I think the question has become whether the text should reflect the spoken words, or what is represented on the telegraph. And whether to use military terms or civilian.

I'd translate "kleine fahrt vorauss" as "ahead dead slow", while the proper term in English as found on the military telegraph is "(all) ahead 1/3".

At first I figured "well, it's a military craft and the text is in english", but it feels a bit clinical; perhaps a closer approximation of what is spoken (in German) will appear more natural.

Sooo...

All stop
Ahead dead slow
Ahead slow
Ahead standard
Ahead full
Ahead flank
Back dead slow
Back slow
Back full
Back emergency!

How's that? :06:

[Bilge_Rat]

to be most accurate, it should probably be checked with someone who speaks german to see what is the correct translation.

[Arclight]

Maybe, though I still think it should be translated into proper English terms. We already have the literal translation.

[Baleur]

All back full <-- sounds funny :P

[Arclight]

You should join the navy then, you'll have a blast. :lol:

[Highbury]

<snip>

Sooo...

All stop
Ahead dead slow
Ahead slow
Ahead standard
Ahead full
Ahead flank
Back dead slow
Back slow
Back full
Back emergency!

How's that? :06:

Actually that's pretty good IMO. In English we have a definite difference between a Military or Civilian engine order telegraph, but we like to re-invent the wheel in terms of language in the military, because even the most elementary things must have a "military" way of saying it lol. It appears that the ones used on U-boats would translate closer to what we consider a civilian one.

[Arclight]

Aye, just gonna go with that. Seem to recall hearing "ein dritten fahrt vorauss" or something, think in SH3. That would translate to "ahead 1/3", but the last suggestion seems more in line with what we hear in SH5.

File updated, happy with it. :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

The only thing I would change is the caps. Since it is a command, or an order, I would think each word should be capitalized, i.e. "Ahead Dead Slow."

Perhaps to match the "Extreme" idea, and to match the reverse, it should be "Ahead Emergency." I think that's how I'm going to do it in my SH3 setup. Of course someone has said that "Extreme" is something somebody said, and not the actual order.

[Arclight]

Meh, you start a line with a capital letter, not every word. I think the rules of grammer are pretty clear on that. ;)

Besides, other lines in the text feedback don't use caps for every word either. I want any mods, whether they are my own or someone else's, to 'blend' with the game. Even the smallest detail that looks out of place can ruin the feeling imho.

It's called 'back emergency' because you use it in an emergency. 'Ahead flank' may be used simply to overtake a convoy.

Yep, I'm happy with it as it is. :sunny:

* Apart from 'back dead slow', that just sounds weird, but for lack of a better term, so it shall be.

[Frederf]

Pulling from some of the better SH3 mods I would say your last setup is the best. The only one I'm unsure of is "back dead slow." In SH4 all the "backs" were kicked up a notch (missing the bottom rung) so you had:

Ahead dead slow
Ahead slow
Ahead standard
Ahead full
Ahead flank

Back slow
Back standard
Back full
Back emergency

Then again the telegraph in the picture I linked above clearly has a "Voraus Kleine Fahrt" and a "Zuruck Kleine Fahrt." The picture very strongly suggests that the "missing" entry from the backward direction is "GroBe" or full.

In which case I might do:

Ahead dead slow
Ahead slow
Ahead standard
Ahead full
Ahead flank

Back dead slow
Back slow
Back standard
Back emergency!

Also "Halbe" is "Half" so one could substitute "standard" for "half."

[Arclight]

It's my interpretation that 'ahead standard' implies some special meaning, namely the best setting for long range travel. Since ships don't travel in reverse normally, I don't think there should be a 'back standard' setting.

'Ahead half' or 'back half' would be possible, but that's a strictly civilian definition again. At the moment I have a bit of a mix of military definitions ('standard', 'flank') and civillian ones ('slow', 'dead slow') ('full' seems commonplace in both). Imho it's the best balance I can get get between proper terminology and matching what is spoken in-game.

One last thing I might do is compare the engine RPM while at 'back full' setting, and see if it corresponds more closely to 'ahead standard' or 'ahead full'. :hmmm:

[LukeFF]

FWIW, this is the terminology that is used in the USN Fleet Submarine Manual:

17C4. Orders for the engines. Standard orders to the engines are given in three parts: 1) the first part designates the engine starboard, port, or all; 2) the second part indicates the direction: ahead or back; and 3) the third part indicates the speed: 1/3, 2/3, standard, full, flank, or stop. Typical orders are:
1. "Port, ahead, 2/3."
2. "Starboard, back, full."
3. "All, ahead, standard."
4. "Port, back, 1/3; Starboard, ahead, 2/3."
5. "All, stop."

[Arclight]

Thanks Luke. :salute:

Coincidentaly exactly what I used for the first version, but didn't really mesh with the German voices. :)

[Safe-Keeper]

Doesn't need to fit the German voices, if you ask me, if it's English, it's English.

[Arclight]

Can't say I agree; disconnect between spoken and text just makes people think "that's not right, is it?" :lol:

[Sailor Steve]

Meh, you start a line with a capital letter, not every word. I think the rules of grammer are pretty clear on that. ;)
In speech, yes, but when it's a codified order it becomes, for practical purposes, one word. It was just an idea - no need to get defensive. On the other hand you might want to review the rules of spelling. They're pretty clear, too.

[Arclight]

Who's defensive now? :haha:

Only thing I ever do is try to explain my reasoning. :yep:


End spellong is nut mye strungsuit. :88)

Nor is English my native language, for that matter.

[Sailor Steve]

Who's defensive now? :haha:
"Not I", said the fly.

Only thing I ever do is try to explain my reasoning. :yep:
Dadgum internet doesn't give inflections again. Sorry for misunderstanding.

[Arclight]

Hey, no worries. ;)

Even with a ton of smilies it's way too easy to send the wrong message. :-?



Really, I don't take myself too seriously; better to not take my posts too seriously either. :lol:

[Frederf]

Even if every word capitalized is proper, it's not consistent with the rest of the buffer text. Better to match than to be textbook. Besides, German naval language of the 40s might differ from US naval language of today.

[LukeFF]

Thanks Luke. :salute:

Coincidentaly exactly what I used for the first version, but didn't really mesh with the German voices. :)

Well, you can look at it one of two ways: one can either use the "literal" translation from German to English (which is what the devs did), or go for a more "localized" translation. Some things just don't translate "right" when translated literally from German to English. "Ahead Standard" is just one example of that.

Personally, for RFB, I'm going for more of what titles were used in the USN during the war instead of a literal translation. That means using titles like "soundman," "radioman", and the above listed engine order examples.

[Arclight]

Would do the same if the aim was realism. :yep:

Would have expected something like "sonarman" or "sonaroperator", instead of "soundman". But then I'm not familiar with the official designations. :hmm2:

[LukeFF]

Would have expected something like "sonarman" or "sonaroperator", instead of "soundman". But then I'm not familiar with the official designations. :hmm2:

Actually, both "soundman" and "sonarman" are correct for the WWII US Navy era. "Soundman" was the initial rating created for sonar operators (in 1942), and later on in the war (1943) it was merged into the new "Sonarman" rating.

[Arclight]

Similar situation for the radioman changing to "radarman", or were those separate ratings? :06:


Maybe you can change the designation mid-game with a script. :hmmm:

Maximum accuracy, it's all in the details. :arrgh!: :lol:

[LukeFF]

Similar situation for the radioman changing to "radarman", or were those separate ratings? :06:

Separate ratings. There was also a "radio technician" rating created during the war as well.

Here, you can see 'em all here: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq78-3.htm

[Arclight]

Cool. :salute:

Might ask Neal to change my rating to Jack of the Dust... or Loblolly boy. :DL


Come to think of it, I might make some more corrections to stuff like this, mini-patch or something. If you don't mind, of course, credit where it's due. ;)

[LukeFF]

Come to think of it, I might make some more corrections to stuff like this, mini-patch or something. If you don't mind, of course, credit where it's due. ;)

Go for it! :)

[Arclight]

Will do. :up:

Might be a while though, think I got in a little over my head with the modding. :lol:

[Frederf]

I loaded up SH5 with the English voices:
Minimum speed ahead
Ahead slow
Ahead half
Ahead full
Extreme speed ahead

...so in other words useless.

[shmall]

U-Boat telegraph machine with a roughly, 8 1/2" diameter, glass faced, control panel with a screw threaded, metal, outer edge positioned on the lower obverse. The underlying white base control panel has a black, red and green printed script that is divided into four sections. The sections include the black printed, "Voraus", (Forward), section with five choices consisting of, "Äuß Kraft", (Full Power), "Große Fahrt", (Three-quarter Speed), "Halbe Fahrt", (Half Speed), "Langs Fahrt", (Slow Speed) and "Kleine Fahrt", (Idle Speed). The red printed, next section entitled, "Zurück", (Reverse), also has the same five choices as the Forward section, "Äuß Kraft", "Große Fahrt", "Halbe Fahrt", "Langs Fahrt", and "Kleine Fahrt".

So extreme speed ahead should really read "Full speed ahead" or "full power ahead" none of this wanky flanky thing ;)

[Arclight]

In a literal translation, yes. Not looking for literal translations. ;)

[RFB Team]

In a literal translation, yes. Not looking for literal translations. ;)

http://www.uboatarchive.net/KTBNotesPropulsion.htm

More also at http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-556INT.htm

[Galanti]

I think the problem that 'extreme' is becoming a loaded word in English, and is associated with the rise of over-the-top stunts and exhibitionism.

Let's split the difference and agree to call it 'Balls-to-the-wall Speed".

[Sailor Steve]

Just for the sake of silliness, I'll be even more literal:

If "Äuß Kraft" is "Utmost Speed", shouldn't "Große Fahrt", actually translate as "Big Speed", or "Great Speed", rather than "Three-Quarters"?

[Highbury]

Personally, for RFB, I'm going for more of what titles were used in the USN during the war instead of a literal translation.

This is just my opinion, and it is probably the wrong place for it, but I think that using the USN as a standard for a German naval sim is a mistake.

I like how Arc has used and English translation of the German terms. In a mod that strives for realism this is, in my opinion, a much more realistic way of doing it.

[Arclight]

I kinda mixed navy with civilian, as far as I know. But it's not about realism, more striking a balance between that and what we hear in the game.
http://www.uboatarchive.net/KTBNotesPropulsion.htm

More also at http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-556INT.htm
Thanks, very interesting reads. :salute:

Imho if you listen to the German voices, "dead slow" and "slow" make more sense than "1/3" or "2/3". Not really sure about "ahead standard" though. :hmmm:

As far as full and flank are concerned:

Flank speed is a nautical term referring to a ship's true maximum speed, beyond the speed that can be reached by traveling at full speed. Usually, flank speed is reserved for situations in which a ship finds itself in imminent danger, such as coming under attack by aircraft. Flank speed is very fuel-inefficient and often unsustainable because of engine overheating issues.

Still happy with it. :sunny:

[shmall]

I kinda mixed navy with civilian, as far as I know. But it's not about realism, more striking a balance between that and what we hear in the game.

Thanks, very interesting reads. :salute:

Imho if you listen to the German voices, "dead slow" and "slow" make more sense than "1/3" or "2/3". Not really sure about "ahead standard" though. :hmmm:

As far as full and flank are concerned:

Still happy with it. :sunny:

all ahead flank is an American term I think you will find?
german and British dont use flank afaik?


Would be nice to have German voices with English text. like in SH3/4?

[Arclight]

So what is the British nautical term then? :06:

And I never played the U-boots in SH4; I can assure you that flank is the only one I know. :DL

[LukeFF]

Would be nice to have German voices with English text. like in SH3/4?

Uh, this is already the case? ;)

[LukeFF]

This is just my opinion, and it is probably the wrong place for it, but I think that using the USN as a standard for a German naval sim is a mistake.

I like how Arc has used and English translation of the German terms. In a mod that strives for realism this is, in my opinion, a much more realistic way of doing it.

Well, like has been written here, one can go for a literal translation from German to English or a more general translation. The problem with a literal translation is that the meaning from German to English is sometimes lost. For instance, the literal translation of Unterseeboot is "undersea boat." No one in the English-speaking world uses that literal translation. Hence the Anglicization of the phrase into "U-boat" or simply saying "submarine."

The idea of using USN terms does have precedent, as the interrogation reports of captured U-boat sailors refer to German naval terms in either their Royal Navy or US Navy equivalent. It allowed the reader to understand what was being discussed.

[Sailor Steve]

Well, like has been written here, one can go for a literal translation from German to English or a more general translation. The problem with a literal translation is that the meaning from German to English is sometimes lost. For instance, the literal translation of Unterseeboot is "undersea boat." No one in the English-speaking world uses that literal translation. Hence the Anglicization of the phrase into "U-boat" or simply saying "submarine."
Actually "under-sea", is also literally "sub-marine". That's what it means.

Literally.:D

[Sailor Steve]

So what is the British nautical term then? :06:
That's a very good question. There is no definitive source I can find, but the term 'flank' for speed seems to come from the speed required to outflank the enemy, if possible. As far as I can tell this applies to all English-speaking navies.

One interesting tidbit I found is that for the average displacement-hull surface ship Flank Speed uses roughly seven times as much fuel as Cruising speed (which is normally 2/3).

[Arclight]

Interesting indeed, thank you. :salute:

Never thought such a small and seemingly insignificant change would spark a discussion. :DL

[Sailor Steve]

Never thought such a small and seemingly insignificant change would spark a discussion. :DL
You're joking, right? It takes less than nothing to spark a discussion around here. And I'm proud to be part of it! :shucks:

[Arclight]

Ah, think I spend too much time on the general SH5 board. More bashing and backstabing than discussion going on if you ask me. :(

Think what I meant is; it's nice to see an "old fashioned SubSim" discussion, instead of the mayhem there's been lately.



And darn proud indeed. :yep: