View Full Version : Internet connection experiences problems (merged)
karamazovnew
03-08-10, 09:54 PM
Is it a plane? Is it a bird? No! it's Ban-MAN!!! :haha:
Trollchi, you'd better delete that post FAST.
Ships-R-Us
03-08-10, 09:57 PM
This first post of yours was not a wise choice.........It is a violation of Subsim policy.......Please read the Stickys........and Run Deep and Silent. The biggest and shiniest brass ones to date........This was his 1st post..........Hope he deletes it and learns..........If he does, we should delete ours to let the sleeping dog lie.
Thanks Karamazovnew.....
karamazovnew
03-08-10, 09:57 PM
You're not helping him by quoting...
I don't see how this can be blamed on anyone but Ubisoft. This is only possible because their DRM's design is flawed from the start. Even if it is pirates that are DDOSing their server - they shouldn't have made such an obvious weak point in their product.
It's a bit like cheating in multiplayer games. Sure, it's annoying. I'm pissed at the cheaters. But if the developer isn't implementing anything to prevent the cheating from happening, who is really responsible for the epidemic? The developer. It's their product and their responsibility to provide a product that is worth the money they charge.
Ships-R-Us
03-08-10, 10:07 PM
WOW...........This brig stuff happens fast..........Who's the executioner???
I wish the courts in real life acted that fast..........That was like "in the twinkling of an eye".......WOW
.........Theres no such thing as the sleeping dog around here, as I referenced in my earlier post
NeonSamurai
03-08-10, 10:08 PM
Deleting it wouldn't have helped, even with out the quoting.
It has been said many times before, we don't care what you do on your computer, but if it is illegal we do NOT want to know about it.
Anyhow as I said elsewhere, I doubt very much that any of the scene groups are behind this. They generally don't do that sort of thing. The only thing they care about is the challenge of breaking the latest protection. That is their raison d'etre.
I can guess who is probably doing this, the same people who like to cause havoc on the net for lulz and spread around as much unhappiness and anger as they can. This would be right up their alley and they have used DDoS attacks many times in the past. I am not going to name them though as their little egos' get stroked enough as it is.
karamazovnew
03-08-10, 10:14 PM
What if it's another gaming company? :hmmm: I remember the scandal of anti-virus companies hiring hackers to create viruses able to crack only the competition.
Ships-R-Us
03-08-10, 10:15 PM
Deleting it wouldn't have helped, even with out the quoting.
It has been said many times before, we don't care what you do on your computer, but if it is illegal we do NOT want to know about it.
Anyhow as I said elsewhere, I doubt very much that any of the scene groups are behind this. They generally don't do that sort of thing. The only thing they care about is the challenge of breaking the latest protection. That is their raison d'etre.
I can guess who is probably doing this, the same people who like to cause havoc on the net for lulz and spread around as much unhappiness and anger as they can. This would be right up their alley and they have used DDoS attacks many times in the past. I am not going to name them though as their little egos' get stroked enough as it is.
I agree with you entirely..........I'm just a sympathetic old sap. He was probabally wet behind the ears, and just jumped in writing without reading the forum rules to wit he should have agreed to.......I guess you are the executioner.....AND the rules are in place for good cause. Reminds me of when I was in CA speeding through the Cassiar Mts. and got pulled over........rules are rules even if you do not understand them.
What if it's another gaming company? :hmmm: I remember the scandal of anti-virus companies hiring hackers to create viruses able to crack only the competition.
It's almost as if these game companies are engaged in...
Mortal Kombat.
*puts on sunglasses*
YEAHHHHHHHHH
He was probabally wet behind the ears, and just jumped in writing without reading the forum rules to wit he should have agreed to
I was thinking it was a throwaway account from someone else here.
Arclight
03-08-10, 10:23 PM
I can guess who is probably doing this, the same people who like to cause havoc on the net for lulz and spread around as much unhappiness and anger as they can. This would be right up their alley and they have used DDoS attacks many times in the past. I am not going to name them though as their little egos' get stroked enough as it is.
Yeah, no kidding. :shifty:
I can't help but wonder what would happen if that thin layer of anonimity were to disappaer... I imagine the groups would dissolve with it. :hmmm:
I was thinking it was a throwaway account from someone else here.
What, did the name give it away? :lol:
Trollchi, how original. :D
Stryck_9
03-08-10, 10:26 PM
It's almost as if these game companies are engaged in...
Mortal Kombat.
*puts on sunglasses*
YEAHHHHHHHHH
:rotfl2:I'm sorry but this actually made me laugh out loud its a good thing I didnt have a mouthful of a certain cold beverage cause it would have been adorning my keyboard.
karamazovnew
03-08-10, 10:27 PM
I can guess who is probably doing this, the same people who like to cause havoc on the net for lulz and spread around as much unhappiness and anger as they can. This would be right up their alley and they have used DDoS attacks many times in the past. I am not going to name them though as their little egos' get stroked enough as it is.
I KNEW IT!!!!
http://www.chillnite.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/microsoft-1978.jpg
Tech hippies.... They did the same with our Operating Systems :rotfl2:
Ships-R-Us
03-08-10, 10:27 PM
I was thinking it was a throwaway account from someone else here.
:hmmm::hmmm::hmmm: never thought of that. People really do those things?
I've been places before when a pop up tells me what my IP address is.. Is there some software that Neal can add so he can check peoples IP address? If there was, I am betting we would see "BRIG" popping up more often.........Thanks for the forethought, Razark
The idea that evil pirates are for some abstract reason attacking Ubisoft's servers, and that this is all their fault, is a bit... silly.
Ubi claims that they were the victim of a DDoS attack for six and a half hours. From their twitter page:
"Apologies to anyone who couldn’t play ACII or SH5 yesterday. Servers were attacked which limited service from 2:30pm to 9pm Paris time"
But don't worry:
"95% of players were not affected, but a small group of players attempting to open a game session did receive denial of service errors"
The consistent problem reports over the past few days are probably not all the result of the 5% of customers affected during that six and a half hour period.
So, either the DDoS attacks were both far more severe and far longer than Ubi is actually claiming, or they're a red herring. Possibly real, but unrelated to the problems people are actually reporting.
Neither DDoS attacks nor Silent Hunter 5 are really very likely to be the problem here. It's Assassin's Creed 2. With any sort of online service that accompanies a game, demand will always be cripplingly high right after release.
The servers are under genuine real-world load for the first time, without the luxury of stopping to examine problems that you have when testing. Worse, more people are playing simultaneously than will ever happen again. When people buy a game, they almost always play it right away; on release day, everyone who owns the game has, by definition, just bought it.
Ubi probably made their long term plans based on the number of people they expected to play it after release week, but dedicated/rented some extra capacity to allow for release-week frenzy. They just guessed too low.
It happens all the time. When Warcraft III came out, Battle.net collapsed under the load like a lead blimp. Whenever MMOs release a new expansion, queues go through the roof or servers crash entirely.
It's perfectly normal, and happens all the time. The difference, of course, is that this time it's preventing people from playing their purchased single-player games for days at a time.
Vengeful pirates my eye.
SteamWake
03-08-10, 10:40 PM
Exactly.
This looks to me like an organised effort to show Ubi how weak the DRM in reality is.
Ill play the DA here...
Perhaps its an orginized effort by the rats to show their frustration as to how strong the DRM is?
just a thought.....
:hmmm::hmmm::hmmm: never thought of that. People really do those things?
I've been places before when a pop up tells me what my IP address is.. Is there some software that Neal can add so he can check peoples IP address? If there was, I am betting we would see "BRIG" popping up more often.........Thanks for the forethought, Razark
If the forum software doesn't log the IP, the webserver logs will. There's probably an easier way, though.
What, did the name give it away?
Exactly.
Ships-R-Us
03-08-10, 10:51 PM
If the forum software doesn't log the IP, the webserver logs will. There's probably an easier way, though.
I'm over 60 years old and that stuff is way beyond me....I think Neal should give some kind of IP matching a try to see what it generates....I guess the executioner proved to be the "NeonSamurai"........That name alone is intimidating.
AngusJS
03-08-10, 10:57 PM
If you want to be pissed (and you have every right to be) be pissed at the people who are preventing you from playing the game you spent your money on. And it ain't Ubisoft.
JCCBaloney. Ubisoft could have chosen many different methods of DRM. They chose the most draconian DRM imaginable. They ignored the widespread criticism and the dire predictions.
They know about DOS attacks. They should have considered this possibility. They failed to do anything about it. Now their customers are effectively being punished for Ubi's stupidity.
To use an analogy from another thread here, it's as if you bought a car with one big drawback - it can't handle slick conditions, and will go off the road every time it rains. What you want to do is blame the rain for the car going off the road, when you should be blaming the car's designers.
8pm 3-8-2010
can't play, servers down; I'm sick of this crap
Arclight
03-08-10, 11:07 PM
Ubisoft is responsible for maintaining the 'service'. I blame the group responsible for not being able to play, but the responsibility lies with Ubisoft.
But it's alright, Assassin's Creed 2 will arrive in the mail today, so I can just play that untill SH5 is playable again. :yeah:
Oh, wait... :shifty:
Eightbit
03-08-10, 11:11 PM
I must say. I expected their to be issues with the drm. Maintenance or a hiccup now and then. And I'm not surprised they had some issues with the launch or shortly after. But I certainly didn't expect this.
As for a crack group dos'ing the servers? As already stated that doesn't make any sense. Look at "spyro: year of the dragon" They implemented a nasty form of crack protection which took over a month to crack and when it finally did get cracked the group that did it thanked the dev's for the challenge.
Forgot the name of the group and the exact time frame, but one of the dev's wrote an article about it and if I find it I'll post it. It's actually a really interesting read.
Steeltrap
03-08-10, 11:17 PM
Sorry fellow SubSimmers, but you are getting exactly the ride you signed up for when you elected to hand the responsibility for running the game you 'purchased' to an external source over which you have no control, nor any effective redress.
I may get brigged for it (would be a first in 10 years), but I'm not exactly overflowing with sympathy for those of you who bought into this abomination of a system and are now experiencing the entirely predictable consequences of it.
And with all due respect, JCC, the fault IS Ubi's. Why? As has been said, it's because they chose to make the playing experience entirely reliant on their ability to maintain their servers' performances.
Hell, a competitor might elect to say "let's kick Ubi in the nuts by screwing their servers: watch what THAT does to Ubi's rep".
It is all so utterly predictable that I'm amazed (and almost amused) that anyone is complaining about it.
Sorry about this post. I (almost) feel bad about it. But for all the "I'll never buy the game with this OSP" rage we saw, plenty of people have bought it. Now they're experiencing the full value of the "extra services" provided by Ubi. I do like to see people get what they pay for.....
p.s. I do feel bad for posting this, but I'll leave it standing anyway....
Arclight
03-08-10, 11:51 PM
Meh. Went into this knowing the risk. We have every right to complain about Ubi not living up to it's responsibilities though. Personally I still have some hope Ubi learns it's lesson.
I'd almost go as far as saying this attack is a nescesary evil to get the point across to them, so you won't even hear me complaining about it.
Don't feel bad, the world will go on without your sympathy. :lol:
Steeltrap
03-09-10, 12:08 AM
Don't feel bad, the world will go on without your sympathy. :lol:
Yeah, that's certainly true. :yeah:
21:10 PST, can't play, servers down
Onkel Neal
03-09-10, 12:14 AM
Sorry fellow SubSimmers, but you are getting exactly the ride you signed up for when you elected to hand the responsibility for running the game you 'purchased' to an external source over which you have no control, nor any effective redress.
I may get brigged for it (would be a first in 10 years), but I'm not exactly overflowing with sympathy for those of you who bought into this abomination of a system and are now experiencing the entirely predictable consequences of it.
And with all due respect, JCC, the fault IS Ubi's. Why? As has been said, it's because they chose to make the playing experience entirely reliant on their ability to maintain their servers' performances.
Hell, a competitor might elect to say "let's kick Ubi in the nuts by screwing their servers: watch what THAT does to Ubi's rep".
It is all so utterly predictable that I'm amazed (and almost amused) that anyone is complaining about it.
Sorry about this post. I (almost) feel bad about it. But for all the "I'll never buy the game with this OSP" rage we saw, plenty of people have bought it. Now they're experiencing the full value of the "extra services" provided by Ubi. I do like to see people get what they pay for.....
p.s. I do feel bad for posting this, but I'll leave it standing anyway....
Well, it's not exactly stressing me out. If the server is down, I do something else. Nothing to freak out over. If the hackers would just leave the servers alone, it would be fine.
Well, it's not exactly stressing me out. If the server is down, I do something else. Nothing to freak out over. If the hackers would just leave the servers alone, it would be fine.
Don't you think you are accepting the excuse rather easily? If this was caused by DDoS the hackers would be out there bragging about it, just like terrorists do when the blow something up. Without verification from a reputable security firm that this is what is going I call baloney.
Maybe you should have said that they were making subsim slow as well instead of the truth that the server has been overloaded? If you did how would we know? So far looking at the web sources available I don't see any traffic listing that would validate that ubisoft servers are being bombarded with DDoS traffic. DDos traffic is rather easy to identify and I would expect a comment from the datacenter/ISP that Ubisoft uses if they were actually being attacked.
Rip
Ships-R-Us
03-09-10, 12:27 AM
Don't you think you are accepting the excuse rather easily? If this was caused by DDoS the hackers would be out there bragging about it, just like terrorists do when the blow something up. Without verification from a reputable security firm that this is what is going I call baloney.
Maybe you should have said that they were making subsim slow as well instead of the truth that the server has been overloaded? If you did how would we know? So far looking at the web sources available I don't see any traffic listing that would validate that ubisoft servers are being bombarded with DDoS traffic. DDos traffic is rather easy to identify and I would expect a comment from the datacenter/ISP that Ubisoft uses if they were actually being attacked.
Rip
I guess there is more meaningful things in life than playing games and hanging around here which is something I am guilty of also......
Neal is simply stating that his lifestyle has a balance that mine is missing...
Well, it's not exactly stressing me out. If the server is down, I do something else. Nothing to freak out over. If the hackers would just leave the servers alone, it would be fine.
Well, Ubisoft can either pray it stops raining or they can buy an umbrella. Presumably both of them, if successful, would keep them from getting wet. But only one of them is actually realistic.
I guess there is more meaningful things in life than playing games and hanging around here which is something I am guilty of also......
Neal is simply stating that his lifestyle has a balance that mine is missing...
I am all with that. I just wonder why we are so quick to take "the hackers did it" line. It reminds me of governments blaming all their restrictions on freedoms on terrorists. I don't believe in taking the word of the party with the most reason to lie without at least a little prudent verification. You know to keep honest people honest.
Well they said if their servers went down they would issue a patch .... Where is the patch UBI!!:x
Capt.Warner
03-09-10, 12:41 AM
Haven't had a single problem today with the servers,interesting:hmmm:
The Enigma
03-09-10, 12:43 AM
If you want to be pissed (and you have every right to be) be pissed at the people who are preventing you from playing the game you spent your money on. And it ain't Ubisoft.
JCC
I disagree, you need to keep UBI completely responsible for this.
They are the one who have built in this ridicules anti piracy solution.
And i's sooo cheap to blame the pirates instead of themselves.
But what do you expect from a company who even doesn't trust their own legitimate buyers. :down::nope:
Well they said if their servers went down they would issue a patch .... Where is the patch UBI!!:x
Nah. Ubisoft said if they took the servers down, not if someone else takes their servers down.
Nah. Ubisoft said if they took the servers down, not if someone else takes their servers down.Poo!! Foiled again!!:damn:
CaptainHaplo
03-09-10, 12:55 AM
DDOS attacks are easily proven. They are not difficult to stop either - though they are EXPENSIVE to stop - unless one has a very clear understanding of what is involved. Usually most attacks are simple zombie machines all flooding the target with mirrored data. This means that a filter can be created that will take suspect data and drop it. This is one of the ways IDS systems detect and defend against such attacks. Second, a set of good routers with proper ACLs are great at killing the problem - though this does have the effect of cutting off communication with sections of - in this case - customers - because ACL's are IP based. It also requires immediate action by the IT staff to impliment. A sinkhole is highly effective if the attack is not too large (which makes it a great "layer" defensively) as well as the most expensive solution - using the backbone carrier (like sprint) to do the filtering for you. They will - at a very substantial cost.
Right now, my guess is that UBI likely ran into a number of things they didn't expect. Are they under attack? I don't know - but I suspect so. I also have to say that I don't think that is the only problem since the issues have run on for 3 days without UBI being able to fix it. That speaks volumes - either they have an incapable IT staff, the IT group lacks the proper resources to defend against the attacks - or there are other issues at work in addition. Given the length of time this has occured - there is more to this than meets the eye. I suspect they got caught with their pants down - not enough infrastucture to handle the load between multiple games going out using OSP, which alone would have caused customers issues - then a ddos or similiar attack that easily borked and overtaxed system.
Given what seems to be Ubi's lackluster success in fixing the issues - whatever they may be - they had best be counting their blessings that if it was an attack - it was only a ddos one - and not something worse like a phlashing/phlogging.
Ships-R-Us
03-09-10, 01:36 AM
Good Information CaptainHaplo........Thank-you
Adriatico
03-09-10, 02:17 AM
Actually it is creeps like Skid-Row that are preventing you from playing. These sad little jerks couldn't crack the game sucessfully, so they have launched a DOS attack on Ubisofts servers as a form of "protest".
If you want to be pissed (and you have every right to be) be pissed at the people who are preventing you from playing the game you spent your money on. And it ain't Ubisoft.
JCC
If bank wants my money deposit - it should have a security service.
If my money is gone - I will blame the bank.
If you are wet under bad umbrela - you can't blame the rain.
These people gave maney for the product - not for the participation in a global war on piracy...
:hmmm:
DiverDan
03-09-10, 02:32 AM
Response from UBI to ARS Technica:
"We worry about our customers and apologize to anyone who couldn’t play ACII or SH5 yesterday. All in all, we hope people understand all this is done to preserve the future of PC gaming."
Priceless! :har:
Mondaiji
03-09-10, 02:32 AM
VIPDoS - unintentional denial of service
"This describes a situation where a website ends up denied, not due to a deliberate attack by a single individual or group of individuals, but simply due to a sudden enormous spike in popularity."
Anyway it is UBI's fault and to blame some :arrgh!: group :hmmm:
DiverDan
03-09-10, 02:37 AM
DDOS attacks are easily proven. They are not difficult to stop either - though they are EXPENSIVE to stop - unless one has a very clear understanding of what is involved. Usually most attacks are simple zombie machines all flooding the target with mirrored data. This means that a filter can be created that will take suspect data and drop it. This is one of the ways IDS systems detect and defend against such attacks. Second, a set of good routers with proper ACLs are great at killing the problem - though this does have the effect of cutting off communication with sections of - in this case - customers - because ACL's are IP based. It also requires immediate action by the IT staff to impliment. A sinkhole is highly effective if the attack is not too large (which makes it a great "layer" defensively) as well as the most expensive solution - using the backbone carrier (like sprint) to do the filtering for you. They will - at a very substantial cost.
Right now, my guess is that UBI likely ran into a number of things they didn't expect. Are they under attack? I don't know - but I suspect so. I also have to say that I don't think that is the only problem since the issues have run on for 3 days without UBI being able to fix it. That speaks volumes - either they have an incapable IT staff, the IT group lacks the proper resources to defend against the attacks - or there are other issues at work in addition. Given the length of time this has occured - there is more to this than meets the eye. I suspect they got caught with their pants down - not enough infrastucture to handle the load between multiple games going out using OSP, which alone would have caused customers issues - then a ddos or similiar attack that easily borked and overtaxed system.
Given what seems to be Ubi's lackluster success in fixing the issues - whatever they may be - they had best be counting their blessings that if it was an attack - it was only a ddos one - and not something worse like a phlashing/phlogging.
Those are my exact thoughts. I'm an IT Director at a local college, and the first thing I thought when reading the various reports, is they were not adequately prepared to handle this situation, or they're just not telling their users the whole story.
THE_MASK
03-09-10, 02:48 AM
The fact is , if the pirates win this time i dont think they will make any pc games anymore .
java`s revenge
03-09-10, 04:10 AM
I am also against piracy, All my games/sims i do have are legal.
When you want to play Red Orchestra / Darkest hour you have to
start steam. In the last 5 years i couldn`t play sometimes because
there server was down. But you could at least read this on the steam
forum.
My opion is why didn`t ubi made a steam controlable game.
If you want you can play Red Orchestra offline.
The fact is , if the pirates win this time i dont think they will make any pc games anymore .With the quality (lack of) of SH5 plus OSP, who would give a crap!!:nope:
JScones
03-09-10, 04:25 AM
Baloney. Ubisoft could have chosen many different methods of DRM. They chose the most draconian DRM imaginable. They ignored the widespread criticism and the dire predictions.
They know about DOS attacks. They should have considered this possibility. They failed to do anything about it. Now their customers are effectively being punished for Ubi's stupidity.
To use an analogy from another thread here, it's as if you bought a car with one big drawback - it can't handle slick conditions, and will go off the road every time it rains. What you want to do is blame the rain for the car going off the road, when you should be blaming the car's designers.
EXACTLY! I laugh at suggestions that it's all the pirates' fault. :nope:
If you're going to stick the red rag out in front of the bull, you've got to prepare yourself for a horn up the a!@#. And it seems Ubisoft simply didn't prepare adequately...and to that end I would make a wager that they haven't told us the whole story. Yes, there's most likely a DDoS in there, but more likely a VIPDoS or simply just under preparation.
3Dfr34k2009
03-09-10, 06:18 AM
"High skilled" network technicians are fixing UBI servers right now.:haha:
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5959/maintenanceb.jpg
Feuer Frei!
03-09-10, 06:21 AM
The fact is , if the pirates win this time i dont think they will make any pc games anymore .
Nope, if they win, we will get our DRM patched out.......
or so we are led to believe by Ubisoft.
That's what i'm hoping for...
then i will purchase...and only then.
GFC Christian
03-09-10, 06:36 AM
Honestly, I don't care ! :woot:
I paid UBISOFT, accepted their rules and now I want access to my property. I do not accept any excuses and it does not interest me who or whatever is responsible for this issue.
Being two days off due to "missing internet connection" and/or "invalid password" I just *bad word* my original copy of Silent Hunter 5 and everything works fine.
my2cent
GFC Christian:
I'm not a veteran here by a long shot, but I believe I've been here long enough to give you this advice now (and I could do so just by having read this entire thread): Run silent, run deep. :)
(Oh, and you might want to read this: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php?faq=susbim_faq_item#faq_rules2_faq_item)
GFC Christian
03-09-10, 06:45 AM
GFC Christian:
I'm not a veteran here by a long shot, but I believe I've been here long enough to give you this advice now (and I could do so just by having read this entire thread): Run silent, run deep. :)
(Oh, and you might want to read this: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php?faq=susbim_faq_item#faq_rules2_faq_item)
Thank you Sir ! :yeah:
Ill play the DA here...
Perhaps its an orginized effort by the rats to show their frustration as to how strong the DRM is?
just a thought.....
But the DRM isn't strong. :DL
Yes, it does seems to make the games harder to crack, but the "HQ" aka ubi servers, which are the source of the protection are down from another kind of attack.
Or to put it simply: The DRM doesn't work.
Let's say you are put into witness protection system, the police say it's going to be OK, nothing to worry about. The next morning you wake up with a knife in your back, with the last breath before dying who you're going to blame? The baddies or the police who said they'll protect you?
Schroeder
03-09-10, 06:50 AM
@GFC Christian
Das solltest du ganz schnell löschen, sonst wars dass mit deinem Benutzerkonto.;)
Response from UBI to ARS Technica:
"We worry about our customers and apologize to anyone who couldn’t play ACII or SH5 yesterday. All in all, we hope people understand all this is done to preserve the future of PC gaming."
Priceless! :har:http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/ink/659/spinning01.gif
http://www.4antennaball.com/bin/img/product/0080195_antenna_topper_doctor_ball_smiley_hospital _nurse_physician.jpg
Not mk
The fact is , if the pirates win this time i dont think they will make any pc games anymore .
If they keep making dumbed down, half finished, buggy as hell games like this then I don't care if they stop making PC games. Let Ubi, EA, Vivendi, Bethesda all go and sell their rubbish on consoles and leav the PC for real innovation and depth like in the early 90's.
Rickenbacker
03-09-10, 07:17 AM
Piracy isn't affected by copy protection anyway. The crackers always crack it, and from that point on it might as well not exist, as the cracked game is freely available. It MIGHT have an effect on casual "copying for a buddy" type piracy, but that's probably not even illegal in a lot of countries...
Found this interesting little column about piracy numbers:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/7225-Experienced-Points-Piracy-Numbers
punisher2010
03-09-10, 07:17 AM
I've been thinking... If the games all constantly phone home, couldn't the games themselves cause a DOS?
CaptainHaplo
03-09-10, 07:20 AM
Those are my exact thoughts.
DiverDan - they say great minds think alike. If that is the case - the opposite should be true. Shouldn't you be worried?
Nice to see another NC person on here!
jwilliams
03-09-10, 07:22 AM
I've been thinking... If the games all constantly phone home, couldn't the games themselves cause a DOS?
Yes they could indeed. Its known as VIPDoS.
Unintentional denial of service
This describes a situation where a website ends up denied, not due to a deliberate attack by a single individual or group of individuals, but simply due to a sudden enormous spike in popularity. This can happen when an extremely popular website posts a prominent link to a second, less well-prepared site, for example, as part of a news story. The result is that a significant proportion of the primary site's regular users — potentially hundreds of thousands of people — click that link in the space of a few hours, having the same effect on the target website as a DDoS attackhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial-of-service_attack
I've been thinking... If the games all constantly phone home, couldn't the games themselves cause a DOS?
In my opinion, this is what really happening now with Ubi servers. They simply used the non-existent DDoS attacks as the excuse to poor DRM design.
Catfish
03-09-10, 07:33 AM
Hello,
i'm certainly also annoyed, but i am not so sure that it is not just UBIsoft fingerpointing at "pirates", but being responsible itself. After more than a million games sold (only internet info - don't know if it's really that number) maybe the log-in capacity was indeed simply overrun. Maybe sub games are not such a niche product ?
The result would be the same, without any DDOS attack. Same as we experience at Subsim.com currently, too much people interested in the new sim ;)
That said, after the internet being commercialised in a way that the initial intent is somehow lost or at least completely out of focus, i can understand that people who really invented this net along with its initial usenet, usegroups, fast international access on data and scientific exchange, are "a bit unlucky" in what it has developed. They do not have much sympathy for people who make their money with it, but did and do nothing to support and develop it. They just use a phantastic system (well, phantastic potential, that is) for the third-badest of all things (first would be politics, second prostitution lol), and abuse it with such crap.
I think the fight against such new web content and abuse is a philosophical state of mind - only that this final drop made "them" act.
Don't fear them, after some years they will sit in the appropriate Antivirus and spyware companies, or BND and NSA :88)
Greetings,
Catfish
RSColonel_131st
03-09-10, 07:49 AM
Well, it's not exactly stressing me out. If the server is down, I do something else. Nothing to freak out over. If the hackers would just leave the servers alone, it would be fine.
I'm a bit surprised that both you and John (what I consider "Subsim Highest Echelon") are so easy on UBI and so quick to believe their claims. You don't believe their 95% number, or do you?
Unless of course you guys have sources inside that we don't have, but right now I have not seen any proof of actual DDOS against the Servers.
And do you really think if "the hackers leave the servers alone" that would be the last time they don't work?
I'm a bit surprised that both you and John (what I consider "Subsim Highest Echelon") are so easy on UBI and so quick to believe their claims. You don't believe their 95% number, or do you?
Unless of course you guys have sources inside that we don't have, but right now I have not seen any proof of actual DDOS against the Servers.
And do you really think if "the hackers leave the servers alone" that would be the last time they don't work?
UBI an EPIC FAIL!
I'm sorry guys but UBI deserves.
if it is work of hackers... then please keep up the good work :salute:
jwilliams
03-09-10, 07:59 AM
I just *bad word* my original copy of Silent Hunter 5 and everything works fine.
If that is the case then tell Ubi where they can find this *bad word*. So that they admit defeat and let us play off line. (you can do this anonymously)
Because according to them :-
We're happy to say ACII & SH5 are withstanding the efforts to crack them.We see the rumors but still confirm no valid cracked versions exist
about 21 hours ago (http://twitter.com/Ubisoft/status/10176718426) via web
http://twitter.com/UBISOFT
Apparently the *bad word* only lets you play as a Demo, you cant complete the game using the *bad word*. As the game requires info from the servers, thats not in the *bad word*.
I had a nice patrol last night and didn't try to get back to port in one session, played about 4 hours, was fun.
Catfish
03-09-10, 08:18 AM
Since i still cannot play, and Ubisoft asked me whether my internet connection would really be plugged in, I guess I will be printing T-shirts with that logo:
"All your gaming are belong to us"
proud member of the UBIsoft DRM 5 percent loose cable club
:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:
Greetings,
Catfish
Maybe the game was ineptly named....
Should have been Silent Hunter Online....
then this would all be ok....
But as it stands it is an Online game in reality, with offline game mechanics.
Actually it's a Single Player MMO therefore you must have:
1) a permanent and stable Internet connection AND
2) a multiple personality... preferably a Massively Multiple One!
:o
.
Onkel Neal
03-09-10, 09:46 AM
Best-selling PC download games of the week: purchasers unperturbed by protective measures (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/bestselling-pc-download-games-of-the-week-purchasers-unperturbed-by-protective-measures-1918550.html)
Balloon popped.
Some surprise entries this week as, despite the publicised controversies surrounding Ubisoft's new copy protection measures - Assassin's Creed 2 and Silent Hunter 5 being the first PC games to sport them - both appear among
Sell, SH5, sell! I want to see patches and this series continue.:yep:
Gammelpreusse
03-09-10, 10:02 AM
Best-selling PC download games of the week: purchasers unperturbed by protective measures (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/bestselling-pc-download-games-of-the-week-purchasers-unperturbed-by-protective-measures-1918550.html)
Balloon popped.
Sell, SH5, sell! I want to see patches and this series continue.:yep:
And there pops the niche of a niche myth right with it.
You know, the more I read this about the servers and DRM, the more I am reminded of one of the stupidest things ever ever recorded by a member of the military service.
"We had to destroy the village to save the village"
If UBI doesn't do something about this quickly sinking ship, they are gonna doom their whole company.
I am not really sure what a DOS attack is, but I do wonder if the effects can end up on machines that are made to be connected to UBI's servers.
Why couldn't they just go with a system that required one time verification per session, opposed to this idiotic system that not only is intrusive, but also a heavy load on their servers?
You know, the more I read this about the servers and DRM, the more I am reminded of one of the stupidest things ever ever recorded by a member of the military service.
"We had to destroy the village to save the village"
If UBI doesn't do something about this quickly sinking ship, they are gonna doom their whole company.
I am not really sure what a DOS attack is, but I do wonder if the effects can end up on machines that are made to be connected to UBI's servers.
Why couldn't they just go with a system that required one time verification per session, opposed to this idiotic system that not only is intrusive, but also a heavy load on their servers?
Coz isn't matter of piracy but more matter of consumer habits, the tide control = better revenew, etc
agreed UBI are bunch of idiots that have not learned anything when others attemt to do the same years ago and failed.
As long time UBI customer I'm waiting for them to release one check per execution rather than online to play. So I really don't bother how bad this idiocracy goes, I have just pity for those gamers that didn't know of this catch before they bought the game. For others that knew... though! If in the end UBI gets a bleeding nose (less cash) the better.
As consumer if I pay for a product; I don't own the product but I own the time I have available to use the product when and where I want. And I do not abdicate of that freedom just because one company wants to control me or know my habits as player.
John Channing
03-09-10, 11:49 AM
UBI an EPIC FAIL!
I'm sorry guys but UBI deserves.
if it is work of hackers... then please keep up the good work :salute:
So you applaud the efforts the hackers who are preventing people like me from enjoying it while saying that the people who paid money to make the product deserve the attacks?
Really?
Is that really what you meant to say?
JCC
Asprin ain't gonna be enough
John Channing
03-09-10, 11:54 AM
Best-selling PC download games of the week: purchasers unperturbed by protective measures (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/bestselling-pc-download-games-of-the-week-purchasers-unperturbed-by-protective-measures-1918550.html)
Balloon popped.
Sell, SH5, sell! I want to see patches and this series continue.:yep:
Go go go...
And here another interesting part of the article...
Such was the opposition that some web users even managed to overwhelm the company's online support systems by way of a co-ordinated denial of service attack in protest - booting out legitimate owners of the two games in the process.
HOORAY FOR THE HACKERS!
Preventing honest people from enjoying the game while making sure theives can have it for free! Way to go, d00ds!
JCC
RSColonel_131st
03-09-10, 12:10 PM
JC, this bunch of articles are all quoting the very UBISoft press release from Sunday.
Seriously, do you have any other sources that hackers are actually involved in these service problems? Or will you simple keep repeating the UBI Press statement over and over when someone questions the wisdom of UBI's DRM?
**EDIT**: Sorry, didn't mean to write it as harsh as it may sound. I can find you two, three instances of online game activation problems that happened in the week after release and NO DDOS involved. So why should I believe the same UBI Spokesperson who claims "95% of users are not affected"?
So why should I believe the same UBI Spokesperson who claims "95% of users are not affected"?
I don't think anybody really believes that 95% statement. The only question now is, was it a straight lie or an honest mistake from Ubisoft. :hmmm:
John Channing
03-09-10, 12:46 PM
JC, this bunch of articles are all quoting the very UBISoft press release from Sunday.
Seriously, do you have any other sources that hackers are actually involved in these service problems? Or will you simple keep repeating the UBI Press statement over and over when someone questions the wisdom of UBI's DRM?
**EDIT**: Sorry, didn't mean to write it as harsh as it may sound. I can find you two, three instances of online game activation problems that happened in the week after release and NO DDOS involved. So why should I believe the same UBI Spokesperson who claims "95% of users are not affected"?
As I told you yesterday I have sources inside Ubisoft (not the devs) who I trust more than an bunch of annonymous people who just want to find any excuse to hate Ubisoft.
Plus...
If you know where to look you can find the hackers who are running the DOS attack (note the current tense) bragging about how they have brought the Ubisoft servers to their knees...
JCC
RSColonel_131st
03-09-10, 12:55 PM
I'd have prefered a straight link instead of having to google myself, but fair enough.
Still, what is UBI doing to secure their servers against the (always present) threat of a hack attack? Did they simple think DDOS is a myth and it can't happen to them?
What will they say if their power goes out, or a hurricane floods their data centre? Have they secured their network against such things? Or is this also "Not UBI's fault"?
Fincuan
03-09-10, 12:58 PM
As I told you yesterday I have sources inside Ubisoft (not the devs) who I trust more than an bunch of annonymous people who just want to find any excuse to hate Ubisoft.
JCC
Since people are apparently "finding excuses to hate Ubi" does that mean you personally are satisfied with Ubisoft's actions so far?
John, I disagree with you, too.
As a customer I don't care what causes the problem. I want to use a product I've paid for, and Ubisoft should make sure I actually can do so. I don't care if hackers attack the servers, mice chewed through the power cables or UBI HQ got hit by Martians.
Ubisoft decided to use a draconian DRM system for offline games, it is THEIR responsibility to make sure customers can use their products, or face the backlash.
I am a businessman myself, my customers don't care if I tell them it's not my fault that their orders are late, that it's a problem with a factory in China or that a ship was delayed by bad weather, pirates, or sharks with frickin' laser beams on their heads.
I sold them something so it's MY responsibility to ensure my customers are satisfied.
The current UBI line of "it's all ze nasty hackers, oui?" and "..it only concerns 5% of the players, there is no problem, there are no US troops in Bagd..." is IMO BS of the highest order.
This DRM (anti-piracy solutin) is totally bogus... like some said, they aren't punishing the pirates or the end-users of those cracked version, but the legitimate buyer...
The last time I saw a proper anti-piracy system was back with Operation Flashpoint, where when using a copy, over time, the gameplay would "fade out"... basically, making the game progressively unplayable, even after a reinstall... It would force you to buy the game to actually finish it... but saddly, publishers think of this of a way too easy way to stop piracy...
John Channing
03-09-10, 01:19 PM
I'd have prefered a straight link instead of having to google myself, but fair enough.
Still, what is UBI doing to secure their servers against the (always present) threat of a hack attack? Did they simple think DDOS is a myth and it can't happen to them?
What will they say if their power goes out, or a hurricane floods their data centre? Have they secured their network against such things? Or is this also "Not UBI's fault"?
See... this is the logic I can't wrap my head around.
This isn't a case where a bunch of morons just decided to pick Ubisoft as the target of the day.
The hackers are running the attack because they failed to completely crack the DRM. They see this as "payback" for nothing more than Ubisoft coming up with a system of DRM that they can't break. They know that doing this will create a situation where the only peopple who can even partially play the game are the theives who have stolen it.... but they go ahead anyway. Screw you paying customer... it their "honor" at stake.
All of this "DOS attacks are an ordinary part of the internet experience" just doesn't wash in this case. This is targeted and planned specifically to prevent you from using you legitimate copy of SH 5.
And you know how they do it? In a lot of cases by putting viruses on your PC that allow them to take control of your pc to run the attack. Where is the outrage about this? Where are the thousands of posts on the hacker sites condemming them for this?
No... everyone trots down to Subsim and vents their anger at Ubisoft. A few even applaud the hackers.
Sure Ubisoft could probably have been more prepared than they were/are, but they are not running the attacks. If their servers went down due to poor maintenance or bad management that would be one thing. But no one can protect themselves against an organized and persistant attack. And if you don't believe me pick up a copy of this month's Atlantic Magazine and do some research on the subject. Or call the D.O.D. Or any major power utility in North America. or the CIA. Or the FBI.
JCC
John Channing
03-09-10, 01:22 PM
Since people are apparently "finding excuses to hate Ubi" does that mean you personally are satisfied with Ubisoft's actions so far?
I think it is very early days and that Ubisoft underestimated how morally insane and ethically bankrupt these cretins are.
Now that Ubisoft knows the magnituide of the problem I will reserve my judgement until I can see, for myself, how they respond. From what I can see they have a few options. My opinions will be informed by which one(s) they go with.
JCC
I blame UBI for bringing this DRM in the first place they should have never have forced this on gamers. I don't have the game and i wont buy the game until this DRM is removed.
Some of us spent a lot of time exposing the deficiencies of DRM/OSP.
If no one had bought, Ubi would have removed the OSP by now.
Those who bought the game and are now revealing the DRM and game gliches are doing the unwary buyers a great favor.
My wallet is shut. I don't have OSP problems.
If Ubi removes OSP, I might buy.
:haha::haha::haha:
I think the point is that we shouldn't need to be online to begin with.
And you know how they do it? In a lot of cases by putting viruses on your PC that allow them to take control of your pc to run the attack. Where is the outrage about this? Where are the thousands of posts on the hacker sites condemming them for this?
JCC
+1 :up:
I think the point is that we shouldn't need to be online to begin with.
Ok, bring the dead horse.
Hello,
i'm certainly also annoyed, but i am not so sure that it is not just UBIsoft fingerpointing at "pirates", but being responsible itself. After more than a million games sold (only internet info - don't know if it's really that number) maybe the log-in capacity was indeed simply overrun. Maybe sub games are not such a niche product ?
If submarine games sold a million copies, then EVERY major developer would be making simulators of all types year after year! They don't, I wonder why?
I have little sympathy for anyone who knew about the DRM, still bought
the game and now wants to complain about the DRM and/or the downtimes.
They are complaining about a system that they supported with your wallet.
That makes them just as much to blame for the DRM as Ubisoft and pirates.
I have little sympathy for anyone who knew about the DRM, still bought
the game and now wants to complain about the DRM and/or the downtimes.
They are complaining about a system that they supported with your wallet.
That makes them just as much to blame for the DRM as Ubisoft and pirates.
Who is complaining (beside you'all), I'm enjoying the game.
@Neal - I told you crop circles are real. :O:
Ok, bring the dead horse.
I think that dead horse comment is even more of a dead horse :lol:
Besides, call it what you want, it's still the crux of the problem.
See... this is the logic I can't wrap my head around.
This isn't a case where a bunch of morons just decided to pick Ubisoft as the target of the day.
The hackers are running the attack because they failed to completely crack the DRM. They see this as "payback" for nothing more than Ubisoft coming up with a system of DRM that they can't break. They know that doing this will create a situation where the only peopple who can even partially play the game are the theives who have stolen it.... but they go ahead anyway. Screw you paying customer... it their "honor" at stake.
All of this "DOS attacks are an ordinary part of the internet experience" just doesn't wash in this case. This is targeted and planned specifically to prevent you from using you legitimate copy of SH 5.
And you know how they do it? In a lot of cases by putting viruses on your PC that allow them to take control of your pc to run the attack. Where is the outrage about this? Where are the thousands of posts on the hacker sites condemming them for this?
No... everyone trots down to Subsim and vents their anger at Ubisoft. A few even applaud the hackers.
Sure Ubisoft could probably have been more prepared than they were/are, but they are not running the attacks. If their servers went down due to poor maintenance or bad management that would be one thing. But no one can protect themselves against an organized and persistant attack. And if you don't believe me pick up a copy of this month's Atlantic Magazine and do some research on the subject. Or call the D.O.D. Or any major power utility in North America. or the CIA. Or the FBI.
JCC
i want to go to the country with my Lappie and play the game...err I can't no internet. I want to disconnect my internet cause I'm moving house but still want to play...err I can't. My internet provider does a server upgrade that lasts a day...err can't play my game etc. etc.
Stop blaming the hackers, martians, bicyclists! Fact is the DRM is cracked, get over it. People that have problems just aren't using the crack right. Don't try to scare people about the viruses on the cracks line either. That's old hat. You get your crack from a private site and it's clean as a whistle. You've been sponging up too much corporate propaganda from Norton and the like. Pirates don't give a toss about UBI or making a statement. Why would they risk exposing themselves? The blame is SOLELY UBISOFT'S and their draconian, idiotic DRM. Even if their servers don't go down so what? If I want to play the game somewhere else without a reliable internet connection or none at all I can't!
I have little sympathy for anyone who knew about the DRM, still bought
You don't need to, I didn't experienced any problem with OSP.
(but of course I've experienced problems with the unfinished state of the game, but that isn't the point of this thread).
jwilliams
03-09-10, 01:58 PM
Fact is the DRM is cracked, get over it. People that have problems just aren't using the crack right.
Yes its sad that DRM has come this far (always on internet) but its a system that Ubi feels is needed to protect their software. They beleive that it has worked.
So if you feel that Ubi are wrong and its been cracked... tell them where this crack that works is, and how to use it. (you can do this anonmosly)
Because Ubi will not remove that always online part unless its proved that the games have been cracked.
The cracks Ubisoft (and other news websites that ive read) have tested claim the cracks just turn the games into demos. that you cannot complete the game using crack.
Ubi's games require data from OSP to enable the completion of missions.
SO PROVE THEM WRONG. and we all get OSP patched out.
sabretwo
03-09-10, 01:58 PM
Sell, SH5, sell! I want to see patches and this series continue.:yep:
How about rooting for the death of DRM so the rest of us can buy the game too?
Why buy a game that you can't play? (At least in my case and the thousands of others with bad Internet or who play on the road.)
No tear shed over here for UBI.
I wonder how many sales UBI is loosing over all of this? I can only wonder if the number of pirates now buying the game is anything compared to the legions standing on the sidelines now waving their middle finger at UBI or the number of previous "good citizens" now compelled to use the "bad word" in order to play the game when and how they like?
So stupid, this whole thing. :nope:
AFAIC, UBI gets what they deserve.
jwilliams
03-09-10, 02:04 PM
I wonder how many sales UBI is loosing over all of this?
None if the latest sales for PC games are to go buy. Every game with OSP is in the top ten for games sold last week.
So looks like OSP is here to stay.
I think it is very early days and that Ubisoft underestimated how morally insane and ethically bankrupt these cretins are.
Now that Ubisoft knows the magnituide of the problem I will reserve my judgement until I can see, for myself, how they respond. From what I can see they have a few options. My opinions will be informed by which one(s) they go with.
JCC
That is just the point. they didn't just underestimate it. The grossly underestimated it when damn near EVERYONE with any technical knowledge chuckled saying "this won't end well".
No reason to expect they will respond with anything beyond the utter brainlessness that they have shown thus far.
Nothing left to do but SURRENDER! :salute:
John Channing
03-09-10, 02:41 PM
Well, I would love to continue this debate but I see there are a couple of new mods I want to try and, so far... bugs and all, this thing is a hoot!
JCC
Kapitanleutnant
03-09-10, 02:52 PM
Well, I would love to continue this debate but
"I don't have a leg to stand on so I'm running away."
Arclight
03-09-10, 03:05 PM
Oh, real mature. :shifty:
I really hope SH6 is a long way off. The atmosphere here went down the drain with SH5 on the way. :nope:
Every game with OSP is in the top ten for games sold last week.
I'd like to see what Ubisoft's sales figures look like for this week.
Schunken
03-09-10, 03:30 PM
...I would more like see how many returns their get from Amazon and the big warehouses.....
Not only SH5, also this Assasins whatever (never got friend with such 3-person games)
Andreas
JScones
03-10-10, 01:57 AM
See... this is the logic I can't wrap my head around.
This isn't a case where a bunch of morons just decided to pick Ubisoft as the target of the day.
The hackers are running the attack because they failed to completely crack the DRM. They see this as "payback" for nothing more than Ubisoft coming up with a system of DRM that they can't break. They know that doing this will create a situation where the only peopple who can even partially play the game are the theives who have stolen it.... but they go ahead anyway. Screw you paying customer... it their "honor" at stake.
All of this "DOS attacks are an ordinary part of the internet experience" just doesn't wash in this case. This is targeted and planned specifically to prevent you from using you legitimate copy of SH 5.
And you know how they do it? In a lot of cases by putting viruses on your PC that allow them to take control of your pc to run the attack. Where is the outrage about this? Where are the thousands of posts on the hacker sites condemming them for this?
No... everyone trots down to Subsim and vents their anger at Ubisoft. A few even applaud the hackers.
Sure Ubisoft could probably have been more prepared than they were/are, but they are not running the attacks. If their servers went down due to poor maintenance or bad management that would be one thing. But no one can protect themselves against an organized and persistant attack. And if you don't believe me pick up a copy of this month's Atlantic Magazine and do some research on the subject. Or call the D.O.D. Or any major power utility in North America. or the CIA. Or the FBI.
JCC
:haha::har::haha:
I think you've taken too much asprin. :shifty:
Captain Wreckless
03-10-10, 02:15 AM
I blame UBI for bringing this DRM in the first place they should have never have forced this on gamers. I don't have the game and i wont buy the game until this DRM is removed.
:sign_yeah:
CW :arrgh!:
Adriatico
03-10-10, 02:23 AM
The main issue is - why Ubi exposed users to all that DRM torture in a first place?
If Ubi was a turist agency - they would take tourist group for Dubai beaches trough Afghan mountins... so if few people get hurt - its not their fault... as they are exposed to a third side actions.
:doh:
vivieehk
03-10-10, 02:24 AM
it is a crazy and stupid decision of what they made.....
i bought the game, but i need to use a crack to play the game as i cannot have internet all the time with me...
it is totally redicious and irony...
Sorry JCC, I must agree with Jaesen's response here!!:O:
RSColonel_131st
03-10-10, 03:37 AM
See... this is the logic I can't wrap my head around.
This isn't a case where a bunch of morons just decided to pick Ubisoft as the target of the day.
Well, I beg to differ. That's why our logic doesn't match.
UBI was prewarned that such attacks would be taking place. They had about a week to prepare.
Also, unless this is a high-value botnet at work here (I know what a botnet is, so no need to educate me how they are made) it can only be a "manual" DDOS.
A "manual" DDOS by definition is small. A high-value botnet costs a lot of money to use.
So either it's a small DDOS, or some cyber criminal is doing stuff for free that otherwise costs a few hundred thousand dollars.
I don't believe the later, so what do we know about these groups? Are these some guys sitting in an internet cafe, or an organized botnet group?`
Since we don't know these facts, it is impossible to say how well or badly UBI was prepared, and if this attack is in fact anything out of the ordinary in the daily war on the net.
But it seems you are giving the benefit of the doupt to UBI all the time, I give it to them none of the time. Both are valid opinions. Neither is more correct or more factual at this point.
The Enigma
03-10-10, 03:47 AM
What gives you guys the idea it was an attack???
Only because UBI almighty says it was??
Wake up, their servers weren't up for the DRM job. That's all.
Ships-R-Us
03-10-10, 03:55 AM
The only thing that matters in all this poop is "what is". There is offline play, and Ubisoft will abandon the DRM thing. The current offline play thing will even be perfected eventually..........Christ Almighty it has not been even a week and progress is being made toward the arena of player independance. Indepedance from Ubisoft is absolutely inevitable regardless of how and where it came about............:woot::woot::woot:
robbo180265
03-10-10, 04:41 AM
Hi guys,
I thought I'd weigh in on this discussion with my thoughts.
When I got the e mail from Neal giving advanced warning about SHV I was stoked. I didn't buy SHIV because I loved the atlantic theater and really wanted more of that. This was a dream come true - More U Boats better graphics , sure the game would be a bit broke when released - it's UBI after all, didn't put me off as I knew about Subsim and knew that eventually it would be a great game.
Then I read about the DRM. A system that forces me to be online whenever I want to play (even in single player mode???)
In 2003 I got divorced and for three years or so I couldn't afford internet access. One of the things that got me through those times was playing SHIII. I was able to "borrow" my friends computers and download all the GWX updates etc - it was a great game that just got better and better.
But wait...... As unlikely as it is to happen again, what if I lost my net connection again? Well for those 3 years I would have had a game that I couldn't play. How could I subscribe to a company that forces a system like that onto me? How could I justfy spending money on a game that I might not even play?
If I'm honest , I read the reviews of the game and am dead jealous of you guys that have got it and have been able to play it. I just can't buy it unless UBI drop this farsical DRM system, that punishes players who do not have access (for whatever reason) to a high speed net connection.
And now fast forward a few months and it would appear that the servers are unable to cope (for whatever reason , ultimatly it doesn't matter whether its an attack by hackers, or an invasion from Mars ) and it would appear that gamers who have spent their hard earned money are unable to play the game.
The reason they can't play the game isn't because of hackers , it's because UBI decided to implement the DRM system. Without the DRM you would all be playing the game right now and thats a fact I'm afraid.
So until UBI drop the DRM I'm afraid I wont be buying the game and thats that. I made my decision a while back before the farce that is happening now, gonna stand by it.
First news item you find if you google "silent hunter 5"
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/feature/1595640/ubisoft-drm-shot-pieces Is that really the kind of publicity that UBI wanted?
And from the Gaurdian (my newspaper of choice)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/mar/09/ubisoft-drm
The only thing that matters in all this poop is "what is". There is offline play, and Ubisoft will abandon the DRM thing. The current offline play thing will even be perfected eventually..........Christ Almighty it has not been even a week and progress is being made toward the arena of player independance. Indepedance from Ubisoft is absolutely inevitable regardless of how and where it came about............:woot::woot::woot:
There already is:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1305076&postcount=1
Happy times:
http://xs.to/image-CFC7_4B971C71.jpg
Meanwhile....
Eurogamer Review
Silent Hunter 5
Das booted off the server :har:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/silent-hunter-5-review
609_Avatar
03-10-10, 10:36 AM
All I can say about all of this is I'm really glad I haven't bought the game. I'm on the fence about some of the choices made for this version and quite happy about others. The over whelming majority of those that say they like it is because of its "potential" and not because of what it is now. Saying that's just the way it is because 3 & 4 were that way does not make it any more palatable at all and is just a sad statement of what we have come to accept. I won't purchase and support the DRM scheme chosen but if this is true (and I have no way of knowing either way and am not calling you in to question about it):
There already is:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1305076&postcount=1
that is just incredibly sad. Pirates get to "enjoy" the game when legit buyers can't. Also, imagine the poor sod who is new to this genre, and whom UBI has claimed to focus this release on, when they try to play this game in the state it is in... they have no clue about sites like this or that it can be modded or how to even implement mods. Do you honestly think they will come away with a positive impression of this type of game and this series in general? I don't, and I think that hurts the future of this series more than people like myself who have taken a stand against supporting OSP or even the pirates that hack the game. So in my mind, the only ones that are ultimately at fault for the fate of the game is Ubisoft because they have targeted the game towards the casual player but then give no adequate means of educating them on how to play the game (this all based on the reviews I have read to date) and released the game with too many bugs that the casual gamer will just not put up with, unlike the sort of folks who frequent sites like this and can be patient for modders to help fix things. Add to their frustration of having to deal with the OSP issues that are now at hand and you have an extremely negative imagine of the game and the company that released it. Great way to expand the game to the masses... :down: and I see that as the main reason for its' ultimate demise, if that does in fact come to pass.
darkone999
03-10-10, 10:55 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/ver1.3.5.2147483647/platform_images/blank.gif (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1121062387/m/8111046728?r=5691097838#5691097838)Posted Mon March 08 2010 14:59(cut and past from my post on ubi offical site)
I will not buy this game until the "DRM" is removed.You will never own this game "ever" outright if an internet connection is always needed to play..That means you will pay to play this game forever..let alone the privacy issues that come to mind.. After all no server is secure and thay do get overloaded and "hacked and attacked"..Who is going to pay me back when EA or ubi servers are down and I cant play a game "I paid for"..mabey I will "sue" comcast cable if my internet goes down and I cant play my game "I Bought" ..I do live where there is tornados every summer..Oh and I guess I cant play at my cabin because "I dont have no damn internet connection there"..Can you say class action lawsuit in the future..I see it comeing with alot of the newer games having internet connection required..Someone is going to get feed up and get a Lawyer..After all a connection to the internet is a luxery not a need...Just to add ubi staff I bought SH3 and SH4 but wont buy SH5 until DRM is removed..
Tim
darkone999
03-10-10, 11:28 AM
Here a good point made posted by "cassieD" from another site.. cudos to him/her for a good point
"I already disapproved of DRM tactics such as limiting the amount of activations, but this goes clearly over the line. I like my privacy. I don't see why Ubisoft needs to be aware of how I spend my time by monitoring every single minute I spend on a specific game. World of warcraft and other mmos actually need to know I'm playing. But a single player game? Are you kidding me? And they dare state in their Online Services Platform that they respect the player's privacy."
from link posted by (robbo180265)
Tim
oscar19681
03-11-10, 06:40 AM
What i dont understand is why UBI didnt go for a dongle for anti piracy insted of DRM? I have steel beasts pro and it has this dongle setup. here is how it works. You install the game and a small software program for the dongle. Plug in the dongle in the usb port . When you start the game the program checks if there,s a dongle inserted and the game starts. No dongle? no play! Its teh most waterproof software protection i know off and not at all a hastle.
Fincuan
03-11-10, 06:58 AM
Aye, unlike Ubi's miserable attempt the SBP dongle hasn't been cracked as far as I know. On top of that it doesn't boot you out of the game if their servers go down, so what's not to like? :yeah:
sofie_59
03-11-10, 07:00 AM
Stated in another post,that the price will go up ca 30-50 $
Se the price for Steel beasts is 125$ with the dongle
Darkreaver1980
03-11-10, 07:01 AM
Simple Answer:
To Expensive
The game would atleast cost 15$-25$ more. Steel beasts which uses the dongle protection cost allmost 125$
shearerc
03-11-10, 07:01 AM
When you start the game the program checks if there,s a dongle inserted and the game starts.
Can't that be cracked as well? I mean, the crackers could modify the program so that regardless the result of the check, the game proceeds.
RSColonel_131st
03-11-10, 07:10 AM
Nope, I think core parts of the program are encrypted on the dongle and if it's not present, no program.
But as others have said - too expensive for a single game solution.
However, the Dongle used by SB2PE is actually multi-license cabable, you can download additional licenses do it, and a dongle can even "serve" a license over network.
So in theory, if everyone had a dongle like SB2PE as a one-time purchase, and there was an agreement from most publishers to "standardize" on this dongle solution, it would be VERY cost effective. You could buy games online, download them, add the license to the dongle and play them offline. Or buy games offline on disk, with a license serial included.
AND in theory these licenses could be even stored "remote" so in case you don't want to use the dongle, it should be possible to have a "check at startup" over internet to the central license manager server.
The basic idea seems really simple: Secure storage for licenses on an offline hardware that can not be copied, or the option to run online without this hardware.
Problem is, if this went to such a scale, there would be much more incentive for pirates to crack it, and even Dongles are not secure.
You could resell the game or use it as long as you like, even after years (when the sh5-servers are long gone), the dongle will still work... Not good for migrating you to SH6...
Seeadler
03-11-10, 07:16 AM
CodeMeter price list
www.wibu.com/files/marketing/pricelists/Pricelist-CmStick-EN-Low.pdf
goldorak
03-11-10, 07:24 AM
What i dont understand is why UBI didnt go for a dongle for anti piracy insted of DRM? I have steel beasts pro and it has this dongle setup. here is how it works. You install the game and a small software program for the dongle. Plug in the dongle in the usb port . When you start the game the program checks if there,s a dongle inserted and the game starts. No dongle? no play! Its teh most waterproof software protection i know off and not at all a hastle.
Have you seen the price of SB Pro and that of SH 5 ?
There is your answer.
Ubi ´85% might lose their dongle but we know that 90% have a stable internet connection ... if the OSP is working we´ll consider to get a stable internet connection too `
Not to burst your bubbles, but dongles have been cracked.
Their just needs to be enough demand for the crackers to put forth the effort. A very expensive (& popular program) that uses one was cracked. They reverse engineered the dongle, and made a system tray app that emulates it.
Just saying.
Though, I doubt anyone would waste their time on such a feat for a measly 50 dollar game though.
goldorak
03-11-10, 07:27 AM
Aye, unlike Ubi's miserable attempt the SBP dongle hasn't been cracked as far as I know. On top of that it doesn't boot you out of the game if their servers go down, so what's not to like? :yeah:
It hasn't been cracked because no one cares about it.
Seriously, professional software that comes with dongles have been cracked without problem in the past. And they cost way way more than SB Pro.
Faamecanic
03-11-10, 07:31 AM
The dongle idea is a great idea. If someone is going to go through the trouble of cracking an encrypted dongle..then they surely will be able to spoof a "server" and crack something like SH5.
In the end if we went back to printed manuals (circa 1990), with a program that randomly asks you to "Please type the work on page 135, Paragraph 2, sentance 2" that does just about as much to protect a game as does what Ubi is now.
But then again that means the game publishers would actually have to MAKE a manual for the game with enough substance as to be longer than a Veneral Disease brouchure. :nope:
goldorak
03-11-10, 07:32 AM
Problem is, if this went to such a scale, there would be much more incentive for pirates to crack it, and even Dongles are not secure.
The reality is this : nothing is secure.
The only 100 % foolproof solution against piracy is NOT TO SELL anything to the consumer. There, problem solved. See how easy it is. :O:
DragonRR1
03-11-10, 07:32 AM
Virtually anything can be cracked if the hacker is determined enough. Online DRM where a game isn't complete without continually downloading chunks from a secure server is probably one of the safest (but unfriendly) protection systems. Even then there is always going to be a point where your PC has at one point or another received all of the available chunks of data and therefore it should be possible to assemble all this into a complete "cracked" game.
KING111
03-11-10, 07:53 AM
Yet another funny DRM related story.
German gamers that bought the special edition of SH5 were locked out of the game yesterday because someone forgot to remove nazi symbols (which are forbidden in germany) in the manual from the special edition. So Ubisoft simply disabled the ability to play the game in these cases until they've sent in the manual for replacement.
wow, i would be soooooo pissed off lol. Poor guys.
The only effective means of anti-piracy I have seen is making the game multi-player base and/or a steam game. I am sure there are ways it can be done but I have never heard of download-able cracked version of an online game that actually could be plays as though it were a legal version. Things like product keys and accounts generally mean to crack it you have to steal from someone else, and unless you stumble on an unused key or hack an unused account you eventually get found out when the buyer tried to long on.
not true, as far as I know.
If it was true, the german ubi forums would be full of flame-threads ;)
Catfish
03-11-10, 08:03 AM
Hello,
even if dongles have been cracked before, i bet this sim would not have gained the attention of "pirates" or better "unsatisfied customers", if there had been a dongle instead of the online requirement.
This first step is every player is being forced to be online,
next step will be to charge money for the time played = generating constant cashflow, not only once for buying (or better leasing since you also do not really "own" your game any more), but constant paying.
That said, so even with a perfect uncrackable security solution (be it a dongle or whatever) which does not involve online connection, Ubisoft will not be able to charge money for your online playing, and that is where the whole thing is heading.
This DRM model is not about respecting and shielding digital rights. it is about more cash.
1. step: Make the people believe they do not own the sim, but only bought the rigth to play it. No sold copies, but licenses, that have to be paid for as if you really call something your own - which it is not.
2. Introduce forced online connection, and justify this with cloudy terms like "customer protection", "anti piracy measurs" or "helping the inventors to keep their digital rights"
3. Yet to come: Charge money for every second played, verified and charged online. WoW works this way, and the next MS Office also will.
The future lies in "cloud computing", and the heads of software companies also seem to be exactly there, in the clouds. No oversight and complete loss of basis and customer wishes. Cash flow is the holy cow, or golden calf. :yep:
Greetings,
Catfish
JackAubrey
03-11-10, 08:05 AM
Not true, but Ubi had to do a product recall for the Collectors Edition, because of a tiny swastika on page 27 in the "Official Guide".
The Collectors Edition is pulled from the shelves by Ubi.
The German News for that (in case someone is interested):
http://www.gamestar.de/news/pc/action/simulation/2313356/silent_hunter_5.html
They were not locked out, but I think discs may have been recalled from stores.
Leandros
03-11-10, 08:07 AM
I would not be surprised.......:o.....
Iridium
03-11-10, 08:10 AM
I'd heard that rumor too but haven't seen anyone else confirm it. I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen, but right now there's no backing evidence I can see for the claim.
Catfish
03-11-10, 08:18 AM
As soon as a "Nazi" (pronounced Nahtzee in german) symbol appears in Germany ...
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/notayahtzeebyhumon.jpg
:O:
Greetings,
Catfish
BigBANGtheory
03-11-10, 08:32 AM
Aren't dongles expensive to produce?
To my mind there are three strategies UBI overlooked:
1. Use large cutscenes to make the installable content a right royal biatch to download.
2. Produce a large and thorough manual with no electronic copies.
3. Use of a serial number to register and display your status to the community.
What you achieve by that is basically forcing anyone who is serious about the game to buy it + you reward paying customers with good content.
JackAubrey
03-11-10, 08:39 AM
As soon as a "Nazi" (pronounced Nahtzee in german) symbol appears in Germany ...
:O:
Greetings,
Catfish
That Cartoon ist spot on. :D
Swastikas are banned here. The even went so far to cut down a part of a forest, because trees were planted in the shape of a swastika in the 1930s.
You could only see it from above, but if it's there, it's there...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jZcj__4yviA/SucUY-UYRFI/AAAAAAAAC0M/xrLmshobtr8/s1600/hakenkreuzimwald.jpg
The Swastika is banned in every form over here. You cannot have even the Hindu ones.
The newest symbol which is banned in germany as "anti-constitutional" is the Celtic Cross:
// EDIT: I linked to the wrong picture. The celtic cross as it is used for example on irish graveyards as a gravestone is not banned.
Banned is this version of the celtic cross
http://www.knuddels-gegen-extremismus.de/keltenkreuz.jpg
because it was adapted as a Symbol by a now banned right wing extremist party.
One funny thing was an outcry of an infamous german tabloid who posted a picture of a clothes-stand which was shaped like a swastika.
http://www.shz.de/typo3temp/pics/1ac1f9341d.jpg
Well well.... We germans and our history...... :03:
Safe-Keeper
03-11-10, 08:47 AM
The newest symbol which is banned in germany as "anti-constitutional" is the Celtic Cross:
because it was adapted as a Symbol by a now banned right wing extremist party.Oh! Oh! Oh! Quick, start a right-wing extremist group and adopt a totally innocous symbol, like, say, the present-day German flag! Then it won't even be legal to own flag poles!
...oh, wait:nope:.
The newest symbol which is banned in germany as "anti-constitutional" is the Celtic Cross:
They really did? Didn't know that. :nope:
It's worse enough that people give me bad looks cause I wear a thor's hammer around my neck... some people think that's a nazi symbol, too (same goes for any runes)...
Nordmann
03-11-10, 08:57 AM
I still do not understand the fear of symbols; displaying certain iconography does not mean that past events will occur again. I'm tired of the historical revisionism which seems so prevalent in our world today, it is a dark path, and one which should be avoided at all costs.
I feel sorry for the average German, time and time again they are made to feel as if it's their fault, as if they have something to apologise for, yet they were not alive during these events! It is ridiculous to say the very least. Hundreds upon hundreds of years of history, and one short period is forever hung around their necks like a hangman's noose.
Anyway, rant over. Was the CE already released in Germany? Surely the people that have already purchased it will not be required to return it?
Safe-Keeper
03-11-10, 09:10 AM
1. Use large cutscenes to make the installable content a right royal biatch to download.Thus punishing players with little HD space, like myself, not to mention that people would just upload cracked versions without the cutscenes.
2. Produce a large and thorough manual with no electronic copies....which it would take people 30 minutes to scan and upload.
3. Use of a serial number to register and display your status to the community.You mean like the CD key we already have had for years and years?
2. Produce a large and thorough manual with no electronic copies.
3. Use of a serial number to register and display your status to the community.
What you achieve by that is basically forcing anyone who is serious about the game to buy it + you reward paying customers with good content.
Good suggestions, especially the manual. I often wait for games to come out on the budget label, and even do so for the few sims out these years as want to not only save limited funds but also to make sure it has support from official and unofficial sources. Since games rarely have more than a pamphlet with them anyway, it's no big deal getting a DVD case with just a disk when on budget label. If game developers put in manuals like in the Microprose and Lucasfilm(SWOTL) days then I'd buy the game straight up!
For those whining that it could be scanned and uploaded, well who is going to ALT+TAB every two minutes to read a PDF? Never understood PDF manuals as they are mostly useless for learning on the go unlike printed manuals.
goldorak
03-11-10, 09:15 AM
I still do not understand the fear of symbols; displaying certain iconography does not mean that past events will occur again. I'm tired of the historical revisionism which seems so prevalent in our world today, it is a dark path, and one which should be avoided at all costs.
I feel sorry for the average German, time and time again they are made to feel as if it's their fault, as if they have something to apologise for, yet they were not alive during these events! It is ridiculous to say the very least. Hundreds upon hundreds of years of history, and one short period is forever hung around their necks like a hangman's noose.
Anyway, rant over. Was the CE already released in Germany? Surely the people that have already purchased it will not be required to return it?
Banning a symbol (in this case a symbol associated with a political system that brought havoc to most of europe for over 5 years, without even going into death counts) is not doing historical revisionism. You might want to get your facts checked right.
Japan does historical revision, not Germany.
In India the symbol is not banned and justly so. But in Germany it has a very specific connotation, and you can't dissociate the symbol from what it represents in that specific context wether you like it or not. By the way, even in France they have extrememly rigid laws concerning exposition of Nazi artifacts. Legally you can display the swastika only in narrow historical contexts. But I don't know, putting the swastica in your forum signature is a big no no. And it can have pretty heavy penal consequences if you do it anyway.
That should tell you something right there.
as soon as a "nazi" (pronounced nahtzee in german) symbol appears in germany ...
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/notayahtzeebyhumon.jpg
:o:
Greetings,
catfish
hahahahahaha!!
No, dongles are not expensive. They are essentially a small flash drive typically containing part of an encrypted key pair along with a critical piece of the code needed to run the app.
Small flash drives (1GB), BTW, sell for ~ $5 (US) retail. If you were UBI buying them for a 100k or so distribution, they would probably cost closer to 50 cents.
The problem is that the dongle requirement would preclude electronic distribution.
JD
Nordmann
03-11-10, 09:20 AM
Bannig a symbol is not doing historical revisionism. You might want to get your facts checked right. Japan does historical revision, not Germany.
That should tell you something right there.
In many respects, it is as good as. Removing a historical symbol, classifying it as illegal or what have you, serves only to lessen the significance of the period and the events in which it was used.
Yes, the Japanese are known for their revisionism, but then that's a crime most of the nations involved in WW2 can be accused of. Remember, to the victor go the spoils of history.
goldorak
03-11-10, 09:31 AM
In many respects, it is as good as. Removing a historical symbol, classifying it as illegal or what have you, serves only to lessen the significance of the period and the events in which it was used.
No, you see you still have it wrong. The swastika is not banned in Germany. You can see it in history books, and in historical broadcasts. There, your theory was just shot down. What is not allowed is public display of such symbolism, and using it to revive national socialism.
Germans are not rewriting history, they have come to terms with it. Something that Japan never has.
Yes, the Japanese are known for their revisionism, but then that's a crime most of the nations involved in WW2 can be accused of. Remember, to the victor go the spoils of history.
That doesn't excuse the fact that Japan has again and again negated its war crimes in China, not only during WW2 but also before. When they invaded in the 1930s. Rewriting history books to clean itself of any wrong doing leads to repeating the same mistake in the future.
JackAubrey
03-11-10, 09:53 AM
They really did? Didn't know that. :nope:
They did. But I linked to the wrong picture. The error is now corrected in my posting.
Nordmann
03-11-10, 10:24 AM
No, you see you still have it wrong. The swastika is not banned in Germany. You can see it in history books, and in historical broadcasts. There, your theory was just shot down. What is not allowed is public display of such symbolism, and using it to revive national socialism.
Germans are not rewriting history, they have come to terms with it. Something that Japan never has.
I would class a historical game as a place where such a symbol should be present, as I do not see how said game can be classed as "reviving National Socialism" in any way. Yet as far as I know, it is banned from games. Ridiculous.
That doesn't excuse the fact that Japan has again and again negated its war crimes in China, not only during WW2 but also before. When they invaded in the 1930s. Rewriting history books to clean itself of any wrong doing leads to repeating the same mistake in the future.
No, of course it doesn't, I was simply pointing out that most countries have committed so called war crimes in one shape or another. The Americans for instance, had a rather chequered history of shooting Germans attempting to surrender, which as you know, is totally illegal. The Soviets murdered up to and possibly more than 23 million of their own people, let alone those of Poland and Germany (during the advance of 44/45). Do you see Soviet imagery banned?
In any case, this is going way, way off topic, so I'm going to stop here.
goldorak
03-11-10, 10:29 AM
I would class a historical game as a place where such a symbol should be present, as I do not see how said game can be classed as "reviving National Socialism" in any way. Yet as far as I know, it is banned from games. Ridiculous.
I don't think it is ridiculous, but to each their own. :salute:
JackAubrey
03-11-10, 04:40 PM
I don't think it is ridiculous, but to each their own. :salute:
Which is, in this context, quite a good pun. :D
punisher2010
03-12-10, 07:26 AM
The only effective means of anti-piracy I have seen is making the game multi-player base and/or a steam game. I am sure there are ways it can be done but I have never heard of download-able cracked version of an online game that actually could be plays as though it were a legal version. Things like product keys and accounts generally mean to crack it you have to steal from someone else, and unless you stumble on an unused key or hack an unused account you eventually get found out when the buyer tried to long on.
1) Steam versions of games have been cracked.
2) MMO's have been cracked and have pirate servers for them. WoW and SWG are 2 I know of.
3) Serial numbers have random number generators available. Yes, eventually you might duplicate a number, but I think the odds on that are pretty high.
4) Regular MP games have been cracked where you just play on a pirate server.
As someone mentioned, the only way to prevent piracy is to not make games.... This DRM does make it harder especially if they actually did leave portions of the code out of the game....
Also, the consoles have been cracked as well...It IS harder for the average person to use it, but it is possible. The moment that PC games go away, I guarantee you that the console cracker will work on making it easier.....
Ultimately, there is no such thing as total security.....
My personal belief is that the only thing that can save a game from being pirated is if it's a crappy game that no-one cares about. If there's enough demand, and a will to crack it.. it will be cracked.
Any other game.. there will always be people who buy, some people who "try before buy", and others who will never buy even if they have the money. Pissing off the buyers to thwart the guy who will never buy it anyway is just kind of idiotic. You aren't "saving" sales with that practice. There was never a sale there to begin with. Just like the idiots in the white house aren't "saving" any jobs. Its all jive talk.
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