[Test] AI Fix

[Nicolas]

Ok, i have been frustated because of enemy ai always detect you when you are in front of them, i made tests dumbing the enemy ai but it gets too easy, if you leave it normal is almost impossible sneak into convoys/tf.

It's hardcoded and the only posible way to fix this is patch the game, the files or modify data when the game is running.
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The thing work like this:

- You try to sneak into a convoy, i set enemy sonar range 1 meter,
- You get detected by visual or hydrophone or when you fire torpedoes, i set the range to the original value, and the escorts can ping.
- The is a counter 'Lost contact time' that 'loops' until the escorts gives up, when that happen this counter is set to 0 and i set to 1 the sonar range again.

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Download:
http://www.filefront.com/15749085/SH-AI.zip/

Use:
Copy the file to silent hunter 4 folder, run it, launch sh4, when sh4 is in the menu press Ctrl-Alt-T or do an Alt-Tab and click 'Enable AI Fix', if you hear a beep it's enabled and it will be enabled until you close sh4.

Note:
- Only works with 1.5 version. Do not use it when playing uboat missions.
You can use it with or without any mod, only matters if is 1.5 version.
- I have avast antivirus and it say nothing about the program but some other AV or security program may report something. Because it works with data in other process memory.

[keltos01]

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- Only works with 1.5 version. Do not use it when playing uboat missions.



but 1.5 is uboot version !

why can't we use it with uboots ? I meant I-Boats :03:

keltos

[Nicolas]

I suppose you can use it, i never played uboat missions, i thought that only the japanese escort AI have this behaviour.

[Nicolas]

I made a test, seems to work properly by now.

I created a mission with 2 convoys looping. 100 km away from each other.

The escorts passed over the sub without detecting me, i then ordered ahead flank to make some noise, i got some pings, dived to 400 ft below thermal layer and escaped. Next i go to the other convoy location and the escorts the same, the didn't detected me when passing near.

However the escorts don't give up just in a few hours, may pass half a day and they are still on alarm.

For now i have doubts what happens if you are detected by aircraft.

:ping:

[Capt. Morgan]

:rock:Nice work Nicolas!:rock:

I tested it using a slightly modified version of the Borneo Convoy mission (altered so that the sub starts 7-Km away - to insure that they are not initially being detected by the escorts).

Approach to the convoy was conducted at 120' depth (10' above the thermal), 1/2 kts, rigged for silent running, battle stations. this is a straight-in approach from the front - the kind that always fails in SHIV.


e
<------X-------------- s
m m
m m ........e
m m

e

e=escort, m=merchant, s=my sub, X=where I get depth-charged if I try this without the fix.


Without your program, the escorts unfailingly detected me well before I could reach a firing position. I could only make the approach if I remained below the thermal, but was detected as soon as I came up to periscope depth.

With your program, I remained undetected as long as I kept my speed at 2 kts or slower.
Prolonged periscope use, firing torps., or going to 2/3rds speed all brought the escorts in on me.

Only strange thing. Using the Sonar depth finder did not seem to alert the escorts the one time I tried it.

Reminds me of how the AI worked in SH-1 - Getting into the convoy was rarely a problem, escaping after the attack was the trick.

[Nbjackso]

I also want to extend a BRAVO ZULU for a job well done. I am currently playing SH4 with TMO 1.9 which is well known for having super sensitive destroyer sonar/detection ability. Although I have no specific scientific or statistical data to offer. All I can say is it is now possible to sneak into attack position on convoys, whereas before I would not even attempt to engage any convoys because all I ended up doing was evading depth charge attacks as the rest of the convoy would sail by out of harms way. Now, at least I can get a few fish into a couple of unsuspecting merchants before having to tangle with attacking destroyers. After awhile, the attackers tire from trying to find me and race back to join the convoy. Then I sneak back up to periscope depth and finish off the wounded merchants. This seems more realistic to me. Thanks again for this Mod/Tweak/Program/What ever you want to call it.

[Bubblehead1980]

Although this does take away some of the fun of sneaking inside the convoy , which is part of what makes TMO a challenge in comparsion to other mods an, looking forward to it.Will load it up and see how it works.Just hope it doesnt take away from their skills after the attack which is also the trademark of TMO, DD's are usually no pushovers.

Sneaking inside is not impossible, just takes patience and skill.However, I am aware it can be a real PITA.

[Nicolas]

Personally i'm thinking of making more effective enemy sonar now, reducing the thermal layer or surface factor, tmo sonar configuration in sim.cfg file is the same of stock, and i suppose one of the main reasons of not changing this was the difficult it gets to get closer to escorts.

[TheBeast]

I use to run TMO19 and loved everything they did with the exception of 3 things. This addresses one of this issues I had with TMO19 before I decided to remove TMO19. I felt that TMO19 enemy ability to detect you, rivals current to date ASW technology and ruined the feel of SHIV WWII simulation for me. That. Elite's than can detect a microbe releasing gas at 5,000 yards and constantly being bombed by ASW AC when I am at depth bother me as well. I was affraid to even come to periscope depth for a day light attack on anything. Because several times when I was going to take a peak using my Pericope I was hit by ASW AC attacks before I even got close to the surface forcing me to RTB for repairs(no Master Mechanic ATT).
I am going to give it another try using this MOD and see what changes.

Thanx!
-TheBeast

[Bubblehead1980]

so do not enable jsgme? just place it in the SH 4 folder or mods folder? little confused.

[TheBeast]

so do not enable jsgme? just place it in the SH 4 folder or mods folder? little confused.

This is not a MOD in the sense. It is a Process that hooks into the SH4.exe process when it is launched. So JSGME make no difference when using this.

Always use JSGME enabling a MOD. If the mod is not setup to use JSGME I highly recommend making so it does before enabling it.

-TheBeast

[Capt. Morgan]

so do not enable jsgme? just place it in the SH 4 folder or mods folder? little confused.

As The Beast said, it's not a mod.

Just place the AI-SH.exe inside your main SHIV folder and launch it. you'll see a dialog box with two buttons. Click "Launch SHIV" then wait for SHIV to get to the main menu.

Once there, hit [ALT] + [TAB] to get back to the desktop, then click on the second button ( "Activate SH-AI", I believe). You should hear a beep indicating that the fix is working. Return to SHIV.

==================

As I understand it, this is how it works (correct me if I'm wrong).

SHIV is hard-coded so that the Japanese escorts use active sonar all of the time (although you will not hear any pings until after the escorts have been alerted to your presence :nope:). No matter how silent you are, if you get within a certain distance of an escort, you will be detected. It doesn't matter which super-mod you are using.

This fix Launches SHIV, then patches that running instance of SHIV, effectively turning off the enemies active sonar (actually, it reduces the active sonar range to 1 meter). In effect, the escorts are patrolling using only their hydrophones to detect your sub.

Once you've been detected (either visually, or by hydrophone), it turns on the escorts active sonar, and you are back to normal SHIV-AI behaviour. Furthermore, The escorts will remain in active search mode for many hours afterwards.

The fix has no effect on the enemies ability to detect you visually or by hydrophone (And this seems to be the case. I've tested this out in both TMO-1.9 & RFB 2 with the same results. Increasing speed to 3kts, or leaving the periscope constantly up will still alert the escorts).

For me the question remains as to when (if ever) the Japanese adopted the practice of using active sonar all of the time to patrol for submarines. Using this fix past that date wouldn't be Kosher.

[razark]

For me the question remains as to when (if ever) the Japanese adopted the practice of using active sonar all of the time to patrol for submarines. Using this fix past that date wouldn't be Kosher.

In addition to this, did the escorts occasionally "go active" while escorting a convoy/task force? If so, some sort of a random timer to switch the active sonar range on for a period might be good.

[Bubblehead1980]

Thanks for the explanation, helped a lot.In the book Silent Running by Admiral James Calvert who was on the USS Jack, Calvert mentions the Japanese actively pinging when just patroling with the convoys, which gave away the convoys location.

[TheBeast]

As The Beast said, it's not a mod.

Just place the AI-SH.exe inside your main SHIV folder and launch it. you'll see a dialog box with two buttons. Click "Launch SHIV" then wait for SHIV to get to the main menu.

Once there, hit [ALT] + [TAB] to get back to the desktop, then click on the second button ( "Activate SH-AI", I believe). You should hear a beep indicating that the fix is working. Return to SHIV.

==================

As I understand it, this is how it works (correct me if I'm wrong).

SHIV is hard-coded so that the Japanese escorts use active sonar all of the time (although you will not hear any pings until after the escorts have been alerted to your presence :nope:). No matter how silent you are, if you get within a certain distance of an escort, you will be detected. It doesn't matter which super-mod you are using.

This fix Launches SHIV, then patches that running instance of SHIV, effectively turning off the enemies active sonar (actually, it reduces the active sonar range to 1 meter). In effect, the escorts are patrolling using only their hydrophones to detect your sub.

Once you've been detected (either visually, or by hydrophone), it turns on the escorts active sonar, and you are back to normal SHIV-AI behaviour. Furthermore, The escorts will remain in active search mode for many hours afterwards.

The fix has no effect on the enemies ability to detect you visually or by hydrophone (And this seems to be the case. I've tested this out in both TMO-1.9 & RFB 2 with the same results. Increasing speed to 3kts, or leaving the periscope constantly up will still alert the escorts).

For me the question remains as to when (if ever) the Japanese adopted the practice of using active sonar all of the time to patrol for submarines. Using this fix past that date wouldn't be Kosher.

This is something that has bothered me since I read about it. Approximately 90% of all IJN DD's didnt even have Active Sonar. Can't remeber where I read it but it seemed to be a very reliable source.

-TheBeast

[Capt. Morgan]

...In the book Silent Running by Admiral James Calvert who was on the USS Jack, Calvert mentions the Japanese actively pinging when just patrolling with the convoys, which gave away the convoys location.

Yes, If we could hear the pinging from a long distance then the stock AI behaviour would be much more acceptable. Unfortunatly, IMHO, this aspect isn't handled all that well in the game.

This is something that has bothered me since I read about it. Approximately 90% of all IJN DD's didnt even have Active Sonar. ...

I've started a thread in the general SHIV discussions http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=163955 because I'm curious about some of the same things. There are some people here with an astounding knowledge of the Pacific Theatre history.

In addition to this, did the escorts occasionally "go active" while escorting a convoy/task force? If so, some sort of a random timer to switch the active sonar range on for a period might be good.

That would be very cool. Another possibility is that Nicolas could modify his program so that 5%-10% of the time, the fix would have no effect. That would make things quite interesting:o!

[cgjimeneza]

this would revolutionize TMO... it must be easy to get in, but to choose your method of attack and escape tactics... most interesting

[Ducimus]

Since TMO popped up.

If one really wanted to make TMO easier, just go into the sim.cfg, and in the hydrophone section, increase the noise factor to like.. ehh.. 0.45 or .5, on upwards.

Working on SH5's AI reminded of something, which i encountered in SH4, but forgot about. I had a devil of a time making the AI not dumb because of thermal layers. They work a little too well, and are random in depth. Infact, thermal layers are like a klingon cloaking device. All one had to do was dive deep, kick it into 1 or 2 kts in speed and go AFK for awhile.

To counter that, i had to ramp up the AI's hydrophones. Unfortunatly this has had the added side effect of making the AI's hydrophones above the layer a little too sensitve. What forced this situation was the thought that Thermal layers are part of a PTO game, and shouldn't be removed. Infact, i really disliked lessening them, which at one point i did. Perhaps i should next time i update?

I have to say, tuning the AI in the atlantic ocean where thermal layers are not in play is infinitely easier.

edit: I just noticed the mod here is an EXE. Must be doing some hardcore changes. I don't feel so bad now. :D

[Bubblehead1980]

I for one do not want TMO's AI easier but if it makes it easier to slip in a convoy, then tough as hell to get away, i can live with it.Will try it out when begin next patrol.

Ducimus, modding SH 5 eh? not giving up on TMO are you? good luck though, from what I hear SH 5 needs all help it can get.

[Bubblehead1980]

This is something that has bothered me since I read about it. Approximately 90% of all IJN DD's didnt even have Active Sonar. Can't remeber where I read it but it seemed to be a very reliable source.

-TheBeast


90% is a bit high....USS Plunger on it's first war patrol ran into a DD that had active sonar, shocked the Plunger and she took quite a drubbing.At begin of war the smaller escorts like coastal types prob didnt have active but by 43 and on, most did, nearly every book and war patrol ive read reports pinging by active sonar, too many to cover the alleged 10 percent that only had active sonar.Anyway, 90% is still a really high. Just a heads up:salute:

[Vonsteel]

Thxs for the MOD OP.. I have a bit of a problem though.
I can launch SH4 with it np but apparently youre supposed to hear a peep to let you know its running?

Ive tried 2 ways
pressing Ctrl-Alt-T
Alt-Tabbing and pressing the button

No Beep LOL

Regards

[Nicolas]

mmh not sure, yes you must hear a beep.
the game is 1.5?
I suggest to enable the fix and try to test if its working in a single mission.
:hmmm:

[Nicolas]

I for one do not want TMO's AI easier but if it makes it easier to slip in a convoy, then tough as hell to get away, i can live with it.

Thats was the idea!

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One note:
The fix works with any mod not only tmo.

[Nicolas]

Since TMO popped up.
What forced this situation was the thought that Thermal layers are part of a PTO game, and shouldn't be removed. Infact, i really disliked lessening them, which at one point i did. Perhaps i should next time i update?

Since with this fix, you get detected by enemy active sonar only when they go alarm. I plan reducing the impact of thermal not removing but less (in my game). For people not using the ai fix, if you remove or reduce in tmo the layers can get impossible to sneak on convoys without being detected even at 400 ft?

[TheBeast]

Thxs for the MOD OP.. I have a bit of a problem though.
I can launch SH4 with it np but apparently youre supposed to hear a peep to let you know its running?

Ive tried 2 ways
pressing Ctrl-Alt-T
Alt-Tabbing and pressing the button

No Beep LOL

Regards

The Beep comes from the internal PC speacker and not your sound card. Is your PC speaker enabled in your BIOS configuration?
Some new computers dont even have a default PC speaker.

-TheBeast

[Bubblehead1980]

hmm an issue here....


put the AI fix in my SH 4 folder, ran it, clicked launch SH 4, then ALT TAB, clicked enable AI fix, back to SH 4.Thing is the load screen is U boat mission, not the TMO load screen.So basically its launching the stock SH 4 and not TMO 19, which obviously is not good because I want to play TMO.

Should this fix be in the mods folder in my SH 4 folder? help, i want to use this but wont play without TMO.

[Nicolas]

The program do not touch any mod, it just launch sh4. If you see uboat mission screen on startup it because is launching a installation of sh4 without tmo enabled. :hmmm:

[Bubblehead1980]

well TMO is enabled but I relaunched game and pretty sure the AI fix was working because they didnt detect me in calm seas when were close, in the past they wouldve picked me up.After the attack they were pretty tough for most part, its early 1943 so Jap ASW even in TMO isnt the toughest yet.

[Nicolas]

Thank for the feedback Bubblehead.

[Nicolas]

The mod is now included with another fix of interest:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=164448