[WIP] D6 AI Detection

[Ducimus]

See release: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=163905

[Will-Rommel]

ROCK ON !:rock:

I'm on an highway to enjoy.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Alright !

Have a Drink On Me, cause I'm Thunderstruck !:rock:

[Bilge_Rat]

I knew you could not stay away. I also wanted to attract your attention to this thread:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=163304

I presume the fact that we can now "see" the escort's detection range will make it easier to tweak its effectiveness.

[Dowly]

Thanks! Will have a try. :salute:

[CCIP]

Good project. Will give this a shot - if indeed there is complex scripts for AI behaviour, I think we're in for a treat in the long run with this mod :yep:

[Ducimus]

I
I presume the fact that we can now "see" the escort's detection range will make it easier to tweak its effectiveness.

Yup. That's what acutally helped me figure out that some of the numbers work differently in SH5. Depending on the numbers you input, (and what you do in game) you can watch the detection range get smaller or bigger.


Just FYI, i don't expect huge drastic changes with this initial release. All i did was tweak the sim.cfg for now. Im not going too deeply into this just yet, cause the game has another 3 patch's to go if track records still hold true for ubi.

[Bilge_Rat]

I will test it out this weekend.

[Ducimus]

Updated.

As sonar goes, we're cooking with gas now!

Toss the old file, this ones much better

[Jeevz]

Ducimus decides to give the dog a bone. Nice! :salute:

[Highbury]

Ducimus decides to give the dog a bone. Nice! :salute:

It is the only mod he is doing... until of course he see's THAT thing that he can fix easily, and oh yeah, THAT too... and may as well do THAT while he is at it.. :O:

Just teasing, Ducimus.. :salute:
thank you for working to make SHV better!

[Ducimus]

It is the only mod he is doing... until of course he see's THAT thing that he can fix easily, and oh yeah, THAT too... and may as well do THAT while he is at it.. :O:


Nope, this will be the only mod i publish. Im only doing this one because i feel it's the area im most confident in, know whats involved, so there isn't going to be alot of "research" involved in getting things to work. I already know what this mod will encompass when its done.

- sim.cfg tuning
- AI_sensor tunning
- Creation of new visual sensor for aircraft
- depth charge adustments
- depth charge splash warning
- sonar ping sound



Ive done a good bit of that already, but no where near done. This is going to require alot of fine tuning. Right now, all ive really done, is hit the AI's sensors with a sledgehammer in order to knock the rust loose and get it moving. Visuals will need ALOT more work, I think i might lower the max elevation on the first two active sonars to 130 instead of 120, and may have to recalibrate hydrophones, as they might be too sensitive atm.

[Sailor Steve]

Jokes aside, this is pretty awesome, and we're grateful you're taking the time to make it right.:sunny:

[Ducimus]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rrazHcCb-2c/SEAiajvue8I/AAAAAAAAAMY/kAV-4mVQV6o/s400/Guinea_Pigs_Front.jpg

Would be nice to hear from a couple. :|\\
Regardless if your getting slapped around like a red headed step child, or still getting away with bloody murder and nothing seems to have changed from stock, i'd like to hear about it.

[ReallyDedPoet]

I am using this and will report in when I get my shat together a little more. Still trying to learn other aspects of the game, plus deal with bugs.... :doh::doh:

[Gato76]

Thank you Ducimus

[Jeevz]

I've got it downloaded and I'm going to try it but I need some more time against the stock AI so I have something to compare it against.

[Highbury]

Well the only thing I have had time to try since installing this has been a mission to sneak into Scapa and destroy a capitol ship. I got away with it very easily I thought, sank a Hood BC and Queen E BB. Barely caused a stir. On the way out one DD did latch on to me and give me some damage but I was able to slip away.

I will keep testing and let you know more. :up:

[CCIP]

If deadly was your card, you got 'em. Man, thanks a lot for this one, I am on my first patrol and suddenly I'm enjoying this a lot. I'm having a bit of a problem with getting my hydrophone man to track the (seems to be a stock bug), so that's a bit of a pain; I also find that now AI sends reinforcements to attack, so I hope you do orient it primarily towards scenarios with multiple ships in contact.

Otherwise I'm really intrigued by the AI in this game. Now that it's not blind, the way it behaves is really interesting. Even in early war, I find them rolling up to me with caution and dropping single charges instead of whole barrages for a while, then suddenly turning and laying down a whole line, but a bit off target. It seems like they have a much more varied set of behaviours thanks to scripts now. If you can keep adding to those, all the power to you.

Big potential. Honestly, it's been nearly forever since I enjoyed the escapes this much in SH.

[CCIP]

As one criticism though - especially with multiple escorts attacking, I do find the active sonar "cone" a little too, well, not conical. How wide did you set it to? It seems to me like they cover well over 180 degrees with it.

On the other hand, somewhat to my surprise, I discovered that while the escorts are now certainly good at sticking to me and laying down depth charges, the damage model for the submarine is... well, really easy. I've not really had a single problem so far even from relatively near misses - not even a leak. The DDs are doing their job, maybe a little too well, but there's almost no damage as a result...

[Ducimus]

I'm having a bit of a problem with getting my hydrophone man to track the (seems to be a stock bug), so that's a bit of a pain;

Yes, thats a completely seperate issue. Ive thought about it, but this is best done by a mod that covers PLAYER sensors as apposed to AI sensors.


I do find the active sonar "cone" a little too, well, not conical. How wide did you set it to? It seems to me like they cover well over 180 degrees with it.
If you mean the width (min/max bearing) of the sonar beam as shown on the map, i didn't touch that. That is stock. I can tell you from past experience (like say... pre GWX 1.03) that narrowing the width of the beam isn't going to work out so well. The AI acutally needs the extra bit to overcome its flashlight beam styled projection. Narrow the beam too much, and it results in a nerfed AI, you wont be in the beam long enough for you to regester as a contact. This is one of those cases where historically correct specifications need to be set aside by virtue of game mechanics. W

hat i did alter was the min/max elevation. you wont see this drawn on the map, its verticle in nature, not horizontal. It is, in short, the downward angle of the beam. Increasing it does two things. Makes it so you have to dive deeper to get under the beam, and increases the accuracy of depth charge attacks. The more downward elevation, the deeper you have to go to get under it, and the more accurate the AI becomes.

For the first two active sonars, the downward elevation is 100. As a point of comparision, all JP sonars in SH4 had this. I adusted them to.. if i remember correctly, 112 or 118. Here for the first two allied active sonar, i made them 120 degrees max elevation with Later war allied sonars have 130 and 155 degrees downward elevation. I am considering upping the early war sonars to 130, since they have such limited max range. (1200 and 1500 meters respectively for the first two allied active sonar)


discovered that while the escorts are now certainly good at sticking to me and laying down depth charges, the damage model for the submarine is... well, really easy. I've not really had a single problem so far even from relatively near misses - not even a leak. The DDs are doing their job, maybe a little too well, but there's almost no damage as a result...

Sub damage model is out of the scope of this mod. I won't be altering the damage of the depth charges either. Im leaving the damage statistics as/is because damage numbers tend to be scaled with the existing damage model. If i altered the damage stats, i could be offsetting what balance there is. I did , and probably will again, alter the explosion radius. As opposed to how much damage the explosion does, ill just make it cover a wider area. Currently the damage radius is incredibly small. Ubi seems to have done a complete 180. In stock SH3 and Sh4, the min/max radius is 4.5, to 50 as i recall. meaning that the depth charge does full damage, up to a radius of 4.5 meters. The depth charge will do damage up to 50 meters, but from 4.5 meters out wards of 50, damage is reduced, doing the most damage closer to 4.5 , and the least at 50.... diminishing returns.

If i recall SH5's numbers correctly, The min damage radius was TWO meters, with a max range of FOUR!!!. My kneejerk reaction was to increase it to a min of 4.5 meters, and a max of 18... the same stats i used in TMO. However, to err on the side of caution, i increased it to 4.5 as a min, and 12 at a maximum. So i may enlarge the explosion radius later, but for now, i thought to play it safe since so little is known about the damage model. That and i noticed depth charge damage is completely different from the previous games and Armor peircing value of 20 is being used where as before it was not. So again, i decided to be cautious.


Thats some of my thinking behind what ive posted so far. Just so you know where im coming from. Further feedback is appreciated!

[Highbury]

I've not really had a single problem so far even from relatively near misses - not even a leak. The DDs are doing their job, maybe a little too well, but there's almost no damage as a result...

I agree that it is a bit weak, I had one go off right next to my hull that should have been game over. I did get a "pressure hull damaged" message followed very quickly by one saying it was repaired. Still showed 100%.

A bit off topic for this mod, but one thing I liked was that it seems the interior damage model is fairly well done, as in you get leaks where you should. I won't describe how I was stupid enough to have this happen, but I had a DD clip my conning tower. Hit me hard enough to roll me almost on my side, and I had reports of flooding, and I got the guys working on it. I could hear, but not see the leaks.. I went right through the boat.. then I noticed I was getting spray on my view passing under the ladder.. I climbed up and some of the valves up there were spraying. It is so unusual for such things to be correct I never thought to look up there lol. It was a pleasant surprise.

[Ducimus]

Ok, ill be upping the damage radius a bit more. I thought it was still too low, but was playing it safe and not going bonkers with expanding it.

[Therion_Prime]

Just tested your mod against two late war elite DDs.
They now behave as I expect them to.

You improved the game another 100%. Thank you very much!

[Ducimus]

Ok, i knew crew ratings were important when adjusting the AI, and i knew crew ratings 0 through 2 were relatively useless, i just didn't know it make such a HUGE difference when put in terms of numbers. I suspect the devs did something new with crew ratings.

I really have to hand it to the devs, they've done some great improvements with AI detection, and the new user sensor rendering in the map is makinig it ALOT easier to gauge what is doing what.

Now as adjusting the visual sensors are concerned, there is acutally not a whole lot i can do because of crew ratings. Adjusting crew ratings is out of scope of this mod. That falls on campaign writers.

So heres some data to chew on.
(All numbers plus or minus 200 meters or so.)

Test run 1: Daylight
Parameters:
- Stock AI settings
- Player sub bows on to a destroyer at a distance of 15KM away.
- Wind speed at 15 kts
- No fog.


Results:
Destroyer crew rating 0: -> Max visual distance of 6700 meters.
Destroyer crew rating 1: -> Max visual distance of 7800 meters.
Destroyer crew rating 2: -> Max visual distance of 9200 meters.
Destroyer crew rating 3: -> Max visual distance of 12,500 meters.
Destroyer crew rating 4: -> Max visual distance of 13,700 meters.

Test run 2: Night time
Parameters:
- Stock AI settings
- Player sub bows on to a destroyer at a distance of 15KM away.
- Wind speed at 15 kts
- No fog.


Results:
Destroyer crew rating 0: -> Max visual distance of 550 meters.
Destroyer crew rating 1: -> Max visual distance of 850 meters.
Destroyer crew rating 2: -> Max visual distance of 1400 meters.
Destroyer crew rating 3: -> Max visual distance of 4300 meters.
Destroyer crew rating 4: -> Max visual distance of 6700 meters.


Special note about night time:
The devs included a new variable that directly allows you to control night time visibilty, instead of a flat reduction you couldn't adjust. This is a HUGE improvement, espeically when you consider the variance in crew ratings. That means in Sh5, you'll be able to do night surface attacks like never before.

But here is a problem:
If i adjust the visual sensors to improve the lower crew ratings, then ill make the higher crew ratings overpowered.

If i adjust the visual sensors to decrease the upper crew ratings, then ill make the lower end crew ratings even dumber!

I've often cited that alot of files are interrelated when it comes to modding a Silent hunter game, and this is a great example. Because to get a baseline of performance, this means i have to change crew ratings in the campaign file. I am not going there. So i think the best thing to do, is to return the AI visuals to stock settings, and leave crew ratings to the campaign writers.

Special note on aircraft:
They are subject to the above numbers, which is why they don't attack, they fly too fast, and by the time the detection time has expired in order to regester asjhaving sighted you, your already out of their visual range due to their velocity. Thankfully the devs put in a visual sensor that is just being used by battleships, and it is huge in max visual range., Im going to use that sensor on aircraft to increase their visual range, so you should see more of a response from them in the next update.

[piri_reis]

Just installing this, it's sure to up the realism a few notches :up:

And very important info there Ducimus, thanks.

[Therion_Prime]

Ok, i did a test again, this time with one poor and one novice DD.
They seem a tad too good for my liking. Veteran and elite feel just right IMO.

[CCIP]

My problems are mostly in depth-restricted settings. I can't even lose more than one "poor" DD in 100m of water. A pair of them WOULD be guaranteed death... unfortunately for them, I find that the probability of even a damaging DC hit on a sub traveling straight at 90m and slow ahead without manuevering is about once per hour. Hopefully a radius extension will help this.

Otherwise my main issue is active sonar operation on multiple ships in depth-restricted settings. They're able to ping at 120 degrees or more off bow, and aspect doesn't seem to throw them off within about a mile's range (i.e. showing bow/stern to them doesn't throw off the pinging). Would it perhaps be possible to get aspect/surface area to factor more into active sonar detection, assuming you don't want to reduce the detection cone? Just to have some sort of mechanism for breaking contact - otherwise as I say, with two escorts, you have to be very deep for them to even briefly lose you.

[Hunter990s]

Hello Guys,

I thank you for the good job, I like the mod :woot:

Now I want to improve and test by my self...

but I can`t open and work with the files because I don`t no which programm to use !!

can anybody tell me wich program is good for open and worke with "DC_barrels" and so on ??

I would be very happy with an download link :D

thank you ^^

[TopCat]

Hi Ducimus

Good to see you're back. We really need you - and of course all other modders - here.
As it's Sunday, I'll be able to take some time to test your work.

Thanks a lot for all you've done for this community!

[Bilge_Rat]

I tried version 1 on the PQ-17 mission.

I see the passive detection distance is much increased and goes much deeper than before.

at 80 meters at 1 knot, the passive coverage was still very extensive. In the stock game you are practically invisible at that depth.

I only had a chance for some limited testing and have not tested silent running yet.

My first impression is that it may be too effective and should be scaled back a bit from what you have now, but I will test some more.

One odd issue I noticed was with the behavior of the escorts. In the stock game, when I was detected, only 3-4 escorts came to investigate, now every escort came after me, leaving the convoy unprotected.

I am wondering if the increased detection effectiveness is overriding some AI script.

the version 1 DC damage seemed fine to me, I received from pretty heavy flooding from some very accurate depth charging.

[The General]

Duci, you are a God :up:

[Church SUBSIM]

Used Version 2 ...

Came across a Queen Elizabeth BS with 6 escorts. Weather was calm and winds were 4knts.

Dove into position about 14km out front of the contact. Fired and sunk the BS and dove to 80m. Two destroyers managed to get a lock on me with active sonar. The others moved off to search 2 other areas within about 12km of the sinking site.

Dove to 100m but to maintain depth I had to increase speed which just made my position impossible to hide with either active or passive detection. 2 hrs passed. 2 contacts on me ... 2 other grps of 2 searching diffrent areas.

Set speed to 0 and getntly set the boat on the bottom without taking hull damage. After 4hrs ... the other escorts were called in by the others and I had all 6 on top of me (Silent Running On, sitting on bottom 181m). A 7th contact (a british sub!) came in and all stayed on me taking turns dropping dc. All were close but caused no damage. Let the game run all night at 1x compression. 7 hrs later I still had all contacts on me DCing and I checked the weather - 14knts winds, heavy rain, no fog. It looked beautiful but there was no chance to get away. Blew emergency and held depth at 100m and moved NE ... contacts were on me like glue at 1knt.

Thanks for making this mod ... right now I think they are a bit super human (and I see that the thermal layers have been negated in the Sim.cfg) More tweaking is neded but I must say, for me, everytime I engage something in this game ... there is almost a DD contact coming to investigate within 15 minutes ... they search... they DC. This is a *huge* improvement over previous stock SH versions. I have a feeling modders like yourself are going to see spectacular results from your efforts once you get the numbers right!

Please continue to develop for SH V ... you (and a few others) basically saved SH IV for me.

[Therion_Prime]

I tested this a few times again against 2 elite DDs.
If you're at PD and spot them at max vis range and they are coming in your direction you can do nothing at all.

I dived to 180m at 1kt with silent running enabled, but they eventually found and killed me every time.

This is a bit too hard.

[U-Bones]

Was up until 3am trying to slip away from 2 escorts. Was RTB in the channel at night and had a head on collision with a escorted convoy - too close to sidestep, so I went to 70m ( in ~95) and dead stopped. An escort passed by about 500m and at about 300 degrees flashed searchlight, turned and dropped charges right on me. It has been down hill from there, I thought I was going to get away a couple times, but end up catching their attention.

They seem to be -really- good at nailing my position and heading down and if it werent for bad guesses on depth I would be toast already. Currently playing possum about 3m off the bottom. Judging by drop locations they are uncertain where I am now, but definately know where I was last...

Down to 46% hull, 5% CO2, still have two tails. If I can't break surface by daylight I am toast.

Damage seems a little light, but for playability seems acceptable. Given the (too?) rapid buildup of CO2, I would not be inclined to bump radius or damage too much at current sensor settings. The window for escape and survival seems pretty small as is.

Thanks.

[Ducimus]

I am reading the feedback and it is helping me gauge/get a feeling on where the settings are it. If your getting thunderstruck (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f1cwycSWq0) by destroyers doing dirty deeds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvP0uwl3Q6A), you have my thanks. :D

I'll try and have an updated version uploaded sometime later today.

I also need feedback on the AI visual detection. That one is much harder to nail down so i expect any wide range of encounters with it.

[Bilge_Rat]

this is from the PQ-17 mission, again on v.1.

I am at 120 meters, silent running and the passive detection cone of the escorts still extends out to 800 meters:

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5939/duci001.jpg


it may have to be scaled back a bit.

[Ducimus]

>>I am at 120 meters, silent running and the passive detection cone of the escorts still extends out to 800 meters:

Depth has no bearing on passive detection. Active yes, passive no.

[U-Bones]

Was up until 3am trying to slip away from 2 escorts. Was RTB in the channel at night and had a head on collision with a escorted convoy - too close to sidestep, so I went to 70m ( in ~95) and dead stopped. An escort passed by about 500m and at about 300 degrees flashed searchlight, turned and dropped charges right on me. It has been down hill from there, I thought I was going to get away a couple times, but end up catching their attention.

They seem to be -really- good at nailing my position and heading down and if it werent for bad guesses on depth I would be toast already. Currently playing possum about 3m off the bottom. Judging by drop locations they are uncertain where I am now, but definately know where I was last...

Down to 46% hull, 5% CO2, still have two tails. If I can't break surface by daylight I am toast.

Damage seems a little light, but for playability seems acceptable. Given the (too?) rapid buildup of CO2, I would not be inclined to bump radius or damage too much at current sensor settings. The window for escape and survival seems pretty small as is.

Thanks.

Finally got back on today, and bleh, immediate disappointment - CO2 reset to 0%... within 30 minutes I got nicely bracketed and went to 8% hull, then flooded out shortly after. After that, I replayed it severla times trying different tactics, depths, speeds, twists, turns, and prayers, all to no avail. I simply could not shake them, and they also called a 3rd DD to the party.

Also note this was in 15ms wind - so, while fun for a spin, IMO it is simply too effective at current settings.

[Gato76]

Finally got back on today, and bleh, immediate disappointment - CO2 reset to 0%... within 30 minutes I got nicely bracketed and went to 8% hull, then flooded out shortly after. After that, I replayed it severla times trying different tactics, depths, speeds, twists, turns, and prayers, all to no avail. I simply could not shake them, and they also called a 3rd DD to the party.

Also note this was in 15ms wind - so, while fun for a spin, IMO it is simply too effective at current settings.
Sound like fun to me :D

[Ducimus]

Updated Files.

See first post for link, see readme for exact changes.

changes in layman's terms:
- I relaxed the AI's visual sensors a bit. Orginally i increased their ability to spot objects so that they can spot smaller objects. They can now spot objects smaller then stock, but half of what i increased it to in last release. (if that makes any sense)

- Relaxed hydrophones a little bit. They wont be able to hear you from as far away as from previous settings.

- relaxed active sonar a little bit. AI sonar is still able to get a ping off smaller objects then in stock, but not as small as previous settings. This should allow you some more "slop" when trying to minimize your silloutte, but don't expect much.

- First allied active sonar's downward angle reduced. This makes it so it can't detect as deep, nor give your location as exactly as before. (other sonars left alone, only did the very first one. Max elevation on allied sonars, progression is as follows. 115, 120, 130, 155. (last two are stock, i only adjusted the first two, which were both 100 )

- depth charges less precise, but now have an explosion radius 2 meters larger then previous.

- changed aircraft's visual sensor to the larger visual sensor that is currently assigned only to battleships. This should allow them to see farther then surface ships. (Did i mention that in stock, battle ships can see farther than normal surface ships? :DL )

[etheberge]

Woohoo, first download of the new version! Now if only I would start playing the game instead of tweaking it all the time, I might be able to enjoy your work :03:

[Ducimus]

Woohoo, first download of the new version! Now if only I would start playing the game instead of tweaking it all the time, I might be able to enjoy your work :03:

Heh. Funny you should say that, ive been screwing around with sub sim/zon/cfg files. Too many things wrong to list. Looks like i;ll be publishing another mod before too long. No biggie though, i fully expected to be doing AI, plus basic sub tweaks. 3 shots of captain morgan and a barely pop help ease the pain. :haha:

edit: Now if i can just fix the god damn bow splash like i did in SH4, ill be cooking with gas.

[Will-Rommel]

:har:

:up:

[Highbury]

Dove to 100m but to maintain depth I had to increase speed which just made my position impossible to hide with either active or passive detection. 2 hrs passed. 2 contacts on me ... 2 other grps of 2 searching diffrent areas.

This is really starting to bother me with SHV. I was having a nice cat & mouse with some DD's after sinking 2 tankers in their convoy, but when you set silent running and do anything slow enough to be silent you are constantly sinking. I was eventually about to crush so I had to fire up the engines and give myself away.

I don't mind that if I am stopped, but you need to be able to hold depth while evading.

Sorry Duc, didn't mean to be OT again :03:

[sergei]

This is really starting to bother me with SHV. I was having a nice cat & mouse with some DD's after sinking 2 tankers in their convoy, but when you set silent running and do anything slow enough to be silent you are constantly sinking.

This is the problem I am having. At 120 meters or below I need at least 200rpm on the engines, 3-4 knots, to keep from sinking. I dunno if this is as the game is designed, or a bug. But it makes it almost impossible for me to test Ducimus AI tweaks, hence the lack of feedback from me. Sorry.

[pythos]

As a sub gets deeper it is under more pressure, and gets more dense, making it heavier (some really trippy physics there), so the boat needs more OR compressed air to maintain depth. It is the compressed air that seems to have been left out. A boat going at 3 kts would have no way to escape the sensors of a destroyer.

The HUGE issue I am having is the stock game the use of the scope is just about as good as remaining surfaced. Which is completely wrong.

The visual detection for the AI is also ludicrous. You cannot see something the size of a U-boat tower at 10KM, let alone train guns on said target, the way the Ai can in the stock version of the game.

Depth charges only did serious damage if they were within only a few meters of the hull. If they were further, then they rocked the boat, and may have done light damage. They were more a psychological tool, than a killing weapon.

There is a fantastic description of the effects of charges on US hulls, in Us Submarines through 1945. They actually took a submarine with crew in shallow water and dropped depth charges on it. To see the effects. The charges needed to get real close for the tests to be paused, the crew removed, and the tests continued.

Norman Friedman U.S. Submarines Through 1945 Pg 205, 2nd paragraph on right. Very interesting info. It seems in order to do "significant" damage a charge of 300 lbs would need to go off less than 14 ft from the hull.

Too bad there isn't info on the ACTUAL range at which a surfaced fleet boat could be seen at. If we could find that, a slight reduction in that range could be used for a U-boat, since they were quite a bit smaller.