What have we learned?

[mookiemookie]

These are just some random thoughts that I had while thinking about the state of SH5.

Silent Hunter 3 was built from the ground up. Sure, it had its bugs, and sure it needed some work when it was released, but I don't recall it having serious game-breaking issues. Empty harbors? No biggie - If you're a realism oriented player you shouldn't be raiding them anyways. Collisions with DD's not realistic? Sure, not realistic, but not a game breaker. The TDC worked, the AI was dumb but could be easily tweaked, and life was good.

Silent Hunter 4 was built on top of the SH3 framework - the devs added some sorely needed features. However, this came at the expense of crippling, game-breaking bugs - remember the quick exit to Windows "A" key bug? The stadimeter bug? The torpedo speed bug? Radars not acting like real radars did? The CO2 bug? Broken stopwatches?

Now comes SH5 - and many of SH4's bugs are still present, along with some new ones. The AI is still dumb (planes fly right over me without acknowledging me at all - hell, they may as well wiggle their wings at me for as much as they do about me being there.), the CO2 bug is still there, the stadimeter is still broke and our new vaunted "RPG crew" system has a host of bugs all its own. It's like the mistakes of SH4 have been recreated, and then compounded by a boatload of new bugs.

When will there be a new SH built from the ground up? When will the mistakes of legacy SH titles be washed away. When are they going to throw out the old code and bugs, and start fresh? If you're building a house on a foundation that's all rickety, it doesn't matter what you add to the house, it's still going to be rickety at the core. Instead of going back through two titles worth of bugs to get a feature working, why don't we just start over and create something right the first time?

Granted, I'm not in the software industry. I don't know how development cycles work. I don't know what mandates the project managers at Ubi give the dev team. But wouldn't it make sense to build a stable game to start with instead of trying to tack something on to a base that's flawed to begin with?

I fear we'll never get the chance to find out. Unless there are some miracles performed by patches to come, I think this game may be the death knell for the series.

[Turbografx]

Yeah, I find it amazing that there are bugs that have carried over from SH3. Five years pass and still the same bugs (e.g. underwater crew).

[codmander]

well said.. someone needs to start from scratch.... soo glad I didnt buy this puppy:salute:

[Overboard]

To the op, There Not going to, How many SH games have to come out befor you realise this DUH!!.. Dam".
What are you lost or just dreaming. :har:

[mookiemookie]

To the op, There Not going to, How many SH games have to come out befor you realise this DUH!!.. Dam".
What are you lost or just dreaming. :har:

Next time don't type anything. You'll save the wear and tear on your keyboard and will have added just as much to the discussion.

[Overboard]

Next time don't type anything. You'll save the wear and tear on your keyboard and will have added just as much to the discussion.

Nah..Your just kidding" :yep:

[Adriatico]

GWX4 was the only solution... It should hve been started 6-8 months earlier...

We would have a modern simulation to play... and Devs&moders another 12-16 months to make the sim out of this...

***
Many members were deligted to have x+1 version of GWX3 and keep the wolves occupied on chewing "dead body" - for a months and months and months...
:dead:

When I heard that GWX 4 is recalled due to new project... I had a feeeling that I had to swallow a rattlesnake:damn:

If, in era of SH4, polishing GWX3 was OK > what is so wrong with release of GWX4 - with SH5 in kindergarten ???

[corvette k225]

Have learned not to be in a big rush to buy it yet.:hmmm:

[Iron Budokan]

Very well said and thoughtful post. You make an excellent argument about comparing the subsequent iterations of this game to a house with a rickety foundation.

It's not like Ubi hasn't known about the bugs in question from /3 to /4 and now to /5. There really is no defensible argument they can give as to why the same ones continue to appear with every subsequent release of this game.

It's obviously a conscious decision on their part not to correct these glaring oversights, the same oversights and bugs that have plagued this series through many iterations. Which begs the question...WHY have they not fixed these things?

I'm afraid we will never have an answer to that one. :cry:

[THE_MASK]

I can see much potential in the modding of SH5 but if the same bugs are going to be there that i hated in SH3/4 then i give up .

[Ducimus]

When will there be a new SH built from the ground up? When will the mistakes of legacy SH titles be washed away. When are they going to throw out the old code and bugs, and start fresh?

Realistic answer. Probably never. I'm surmising that existing code was used to save on costs and development time, and im also guessing that these projects not only have a deadlne, but a budget to stay within. SH3, is probably the last sub sim built from the ground up (at least im guessing it was). Were up to Sh5 now, so i think its a safe bet to say that If Ubi was going to develop a new sub sim from the ground up, they would have done it already. Then there's also the very distinct possibility that SH5 will be the last one made. I really doubt we'll see a SH6.

[mookiemookie]

Were up to Sh5 now, so i think its a safe bet to say that If Ubi was going to develop a new sub sim from the ground up, they would have done it already. Then there's also the very distinct possibility that SH5 will be the last one made. I really doubt we'll see a SH6.

Exactly. If there was time given in the development cycle to create new code, I believe it would have been done. Reading between the lines in Dan's posts, it's pretty clear that he would love to do this but I'm assuming the time's not been given to the team to do so.

And as much as it sucks, I completely agree with your last statement. I don't think we'll see another SH from Ubi.

[Iron Budokan]

I'm inclined to agree with what's being discussed here. Doubtful we will ever see new code for the game, else it would have already been done. Since that's probably true, this might very well be the last Silent Hunter title from Ubi.

Given their track record, and the increasingly deleterious shape this game is released in every time they come out with a new one, I can't say as I'm sorry about that.

I mean, it's to be expected. They pretty much shot themselves in the foot with this release if we are to believe the majority of posters who did buy the game, and who are angry and bitter and feel as if they've been taken for a ride.

[Seafireliv]

Yea, but keep buying because by Silent Hunter XX they`ll iron the bugs out. Of course piracy will be eradicated by the 24\7 DRM which means Devs will have more money to make future SH`s better eh?


Hmmm. Somehow, I suspect, they`ll just keep the extra cash and just get richer while still bugged SH IX will need a tube hooked to your main artery 24\7 taking blood samples to confirm you are who you say you are.

But you guys just keep falling for it.

Good thing I have SHIV. :)

[Iron Budokan]

I didn't fall for anything. I didn't buy this game and a lot of the other hard core simmers (who know a heck of a lot more about sub sims than I ever will) haven't bought it, either.

But your point is well taken. If people keep buying games like this that are rushed out the door and "built upon rickety foundatons" as the OP said, then, yeah, nothing will ever change.

But, as I said, I think Ubi went too far this time. There's a lot of bad feeling out there about this game, and, sheesh, it's just been released. That's going to be difficult to overcome as far as sales go, I would think...? :hmmm:

[mookiemookie]

I bought it. So what? I was betting that they learned their lesson from SH4 - I was wrong. If you want to sit there and smugly say "I told you so, look at me, I'm so smart!" then that's your prerogative. It makes you kind of a...uh..."jerk", but yeah, you can do that.

[Ships-R-Us]

Perhaps the company needs cash flow fast and this is the product.

Remember that all the little kids shopping at Walmart and other places that know nothing about realism will think this is a great game and the sales will be great.

The quality of SH5 does speak volumnes reference Ubisofts character.

[Eightbit]

I just have to mention regarding your analogy. From what I have heard its actually better to build up and change what you got piece by piece. Rather then start a new. Main reason for that is what you got (that works) is already tried and tested. So when you add some new code or a new feature and something else breaks, it's a lot easier to track down.

And don't think you have to start from scratch to get new features, Just look at the COD and MOH series and take a look at the engines they were built off.

When you start fresh you introduce a whole lot more new bugs. Things that you used to have down pat suddenly don't work etc.

I think the honest answer to what has happened with sh4 bugs moving into sh5. Negligence

[FIREWALL]

I don't feel at all bad about buying SH5.

I can always say I have a copy of Ubisofts biggest finanical blunder. :haha:

[SeaSprite]

Unfortunately every piece of software comes with bugs, indeed last month Microsoft fixed one which had not been addressed for 17 years.

http://www.physorg.com/news184833289.html

Sometimes the questions are how did so many reach final? And finally how fast can they be fixed?

During time compression my sub suffered damage, but never hit anything, but I am too tired to figure it out right now.

[Webster]

correct me if im wrong here (it happens a lot lol) but didnt UBI get sh2 from buying out some other company and they just improved on something that was already started?

if im right on that, then they really havent done anything new at any point but rather they just modded the game they bought to make it play better.

no matter how much they try to deny it sh4 was just sh3 with new content and i believe they took the same method here and just added new content to sh4 (or maybe even sh3) in order to call it sh5.

dan gets mad when people say its arcade like but lets be honest, when you look at the in game videos of this thing it is 10 steps backwards from the sim factor and you wait for this dot to line up with that dot to fire or you miss your target? :nope: say what? this is the improved hud they came up with.

just look at the auto targetting video here in case you dont have the game

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=163076

i really really hoped for so much from this thing but i just cant see this game being saved unless the modders can rebuild the fps cartoonish hud totally from scratch. i think dan said it was possible to mod in the sh4 type hud and controls so if thats true then there is hope this thing can turn out nice after all.

[Ships-R-Us]

Ubisoft needs cash flow and released SH5.

Aside from the "Realism" geeks, and the "hardcome subsimmers" represented at Subsim.com, which maybe represents 10% of Ubisofts sales.....

90% of Ubisofts sales are a new smash hit amongst all the moms, dads, and kids worldwide, as they all get "immersed" in their own "realistic" world of family activity together.

I'm going to run next door and play with that family rather than listen to the kids whine at Subsim.

Reminds me of the selfish bitc..... that threw back the engagement ring because it wasn't big enough.

[Webster]

During time compression my sub suffered damage, but never hit anything, but I am too tired to figure it out right now.

there is a hard coded issue that when the game sees the bottom you may see open space because the game draws a line from point to point and the vally you see isnt real and the game says your hiting the bottom, hence the damage you recieved.

so if you see the tops of rocks THAT is the bottom not the image you see below them.

[mookiemookie]

i think dan said it was possible to mod in the sh4 type hud and controls so if thats true then there is hope this thing can turn out nice after all.

2 days after release and it's already being done!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1294435&postcount=47

[Webster]

2 days after release and it's already being done!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1294435&postcount=47

still needs more work i see but that takes care of the hud, now hopefully the sh3/sh4 auto targetting system can be plugged back in as well

[Ducimus]

The UI is this games biggest issue. The current UI is making the game obtuse, hard to get into, kills immresion, lacks crucial information and operational functinality.

I believe the functionality IS there, it's just not accessible through the current UI. Fix the UI, and everything else will fall into place over time. The key to getting this game off the ground, is to develop a functional skeleton that can walk. You put meat on it's bones later. It all starts with the UI IMO, id call that priority number 1, above all else.

[mookiemookie]

The UI is this games biggest issue. The current UI is making the game obtuse, hard to get into, kills immresion, lacks crucial information and operational functinality.

I believe the functionality IS there, it's just not accessible through the current UI. Fix the UI, and everything else will fall into place over time. The key to getting this game off the ground, is to develop a functional skeleton that can walk. You put meat on it's bones later. It all starts with the UI IMO, id call that priority number 1, above all else.

Agreed - I was just thinking that this game needs more variety of merchant ships. But then again - adding ships to the game is such a secondary thing behind functionality that I can wait on that. Let me be able to maneuver my ship and actually operate it....then let's worry about campaign layers and ships.

[difool2]

Perhaps the company needs cash flow fast and this is the product.

Remember that all the little kids shopping at Walmart and other places that know nothing about realism will think this is a great game and the sales will be great.

The quality of SH5 does speak volumnes reference Ubisofts character.

What will happen instead is that a budding subsimmer, who would have otherwise have been enthralled by a workable, immersive, realistic sim, will instead be forevermore turned off to subsims of any sort. The next generation has to come from somewhere. Kind of like those "Walmart Special" telescopes they sell over there, crappy refractors who won't even let them see the cloud bands of Jupiter-they'll never bother to get another telescope ever again, having been burned the first time.

[JScones]

Granted, I'm not in the software industry. I don't know how development cycles work. I don't know what mandates the project managers at Ubi give the dev team. But wouldn't it make sense to build a stable game to start with instead of trying to tack something on to a base that's flawed to begin with?
I'll sum up my thoughts on the Silent Hunter series (SH3/4/5) with one picture...
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/751/shcards.jpg