View Full Version : Why are WWII subsims popular and modern subsims not?
I know this might be already discussed here but I've just seen that there are already more posts in the Silent Hunter 5 main forum than here.
And Dangerous Water seems now to be at the end of its life cycle concerning attracting a considerable amount of new people and a successor might be never developed.
I really do not understand why WWII sims (in particular naval sims) are so much more popular than post-WWII.
The range of mission types/variety in DW is so much greater than - for example- in Silent Hunter. And is really the complexity the problem...with options like AutoCrew?
Is it just about the graphic/3D world?
Molon Labe
03-04-10, 10:50 PM
I think that's a great question, but I don't think I have a great answer.
My best guess is (1) that there is something romantic about the WWII time period, in terms of the scope of the war and what is at stake and in the technology involved--pretty much every tool of warfare we have today but just barely evolved out of their infancy. And (2), the reduced lethality of ASuW and ASW weapons compared to modern times makes WWII submarine combat much more tense for a longer time. For example, escaping a depth charge attack can provide a really tense experience that translates very well into a cinematic presentation. In modern ASW, the torpedo gets dropped on your head and that's pretty much the end; the crucial time isn't during the heart-stopping action but in the minutes before when you're trying to evade detection. That's more cerebral and doesn't translate as well into a cinematic experience.
Castout
03-05-10, 12:08 AM
Umm to me contemporary sub sim is not a popular genre because there has been lack of contemporary sub sim games that's commercially successful.
Most would conclude that is because contemporary sub sim has little appeal to the masses or gamers but that is a sorry excuse for me.
Prior to Silent Hunter 3 even WWII sub sim had little prospect of being commercially successful. Why? Simply because there had been no WWII sub sim that was worthy and successful in capturing the market interest and attention. Silent Hunter 3 proved that it's not so much about the genre that's being developed but more about the quality of the game being developed.
The mantra to successful business is to SET TRENDS and not follow them.
Thus I see NO REASON why modern sub sim could not be popular or even more popular than WWII thematic sub sim or even first person shooter.
Evil Koala
03-05-10, 04:17 AM
My guess would be because WWII sims are simpler. Easier to pick up, easier to learn, easier to play. Not to mention the shiney factor. A large number of SH players seem more concerned with how realistic the game looks rather than how realistic it plays.
In the end, WWII subsims are just more casual.
JamesT73J
03-05-10, 05:52 AM
I've been stuck in a hotel all week and have been playing DW/LWAMI. I tell you what, I would kill for DW's controls and plotting tools in the SH games. Those players don't know what they are missing.
To answer the question, modern sub sims are much harder.
I really do not understand why WWII sims (in particular naval sims) are so much more popular than post-WWII.
What kills me is that in every other gaming genre technology for AI, physics, and graphics are exploding... *except* in the modern warfare sim genre.:dead::cry:
-GrayOwl-
03-05-10, 05:04 PM
My guess would be because WWII sims are simpler. Easier to pick up, easier to learn, easier to play. Not to mention the shiney factor. A large number of SH players seem more concerned with how realistic the game looks rather than how realistic it plays.
In the end, WWII subsims are just more casual.
I agree.
Starting game - the man simply wants to have a rest.
Modern sim - requires preliminary preparation.
But not everyone wants to read the user's Guide - 500 pages of volume.
And 3D the display - receives pleasure. (SH-3 for sample)
But many displays from flat gauges and technical op. data. (similarity MS Flight Simulator with in hundreds gauges, both arrows and lamps and all another :-) are not interesting and the tiring effect has..
Castout
03-05-10, 05:51 PM
When talking about modern sub sim most people are trapped with the thoughts of DW and only DW or SC.
There are many types of simulation. There's study sim such as Falcon 4.0 and Blackshark. There's immersion sim such as IL-2 and SH3 and SH4.
Then there's functionality sim such as Sub Command and Dangerous Waters.
I wouldn't call DW an immersion sim because it's not the type of game where you get to experience being a captain of a modern sub. I wouldn't call DW a study sim either because it's too simple to be one however DW tries to simulate the functionality of the many different naval warfare platform in the forms of working stations. This is the core of DW.
There's yet to be an immersion sim of modern sub game. :nope:
goldorak
03-05-10, 06:27 PM
I think that's a great question, but I don't think I have a great answer.
My best guess is (1) that there is something romantic about the WWII time period, in terms of the scope of the war and what is at stake and in the technology involved--pretty much every tool of warfare we have today but just barely evolved out of their infancy. And (2), the reduced lethality of ASuW and ASW weapons compared to modern times makes WWII submarine combat much more tense for a longer time. For example, escaping a depth charge attack can provide a really tense experience that translates very well into a cinematic presentation. In modern ASW, the torpedo gets dropped on your head and that's pretty much the end; the crucial time isn't during the heart-stopping action but in the minutes before when you're trying to evade detection. That's more cerebral and doesn't translate as well into a cinematic experience.
No I don't think this is the reason. Otherwise games such as Red Storm Rising, Sierra Fast Attack and other modern cold war sub sims would never have had success. So making a cold war sim can be as exciting, romantic, graphic intense as any WW II subsim. Clearly there was/is a market for cold war sims, and no don't take DW as a measure of this market because its in some sense a game/sim devoid of any "emotion". People that loved Red Storm Rising or Sierra Fast Attack can hate DW and I wouldn't blame them in the least.
I just think that the industry is risk averse. Ask yourselves why over 90% of all fps are WW2 based ? When Infinity Ward said no, no more WW2 fps for us, we will develop an fps based on a modern setting everyone said they were crazy. We all know that a successful videogames HAS TO BE BASED in ww2. This is a kind of stupid assumption, because up to the late ninties sims spanned all historical periods. Hell its only now that a new WWI flight sim is on the market.
Dangerous Waters, made with same kind of attention to detail, animation, graphics, ambience that Sierra Fast Attack had would have been an enormous success, way beyond the market of hard core simmers.
Who doesn't want to be a Captain Marko Ramius ? Who doesn't want to go intelligence gathering and attacking those pesky soviets in the Kara Sea ?
No, SCS make a half baked effort and thats why this sim failed in the general market. This is the real truth, not that people are stupid and can't handle the complexity. If this were the case Flight Sims would have disapeared ages ago.
Ps: The idea that WW2 subsims are simpler is just wrong. SH 3 played on 100% realism is as difficult to master as DW.
CapitanPiluso
03-05-10, 08:25 PM
Dangerous Waters, made with same kind of attention to detail, animation, graphics, ambience that Sierra Fast Attack had would have been an enormous success, way beyond the market of hard core simmers.
Thats really true.
You can find detail,animation,graphics and more in SH, but not in DW, unless you are a sim nerd ( like me and many others here)
Regards.
Castout
03-05-10, 09:00 PM
Well DW at 100% realism with manual everything feels more like work than gaming :rotfl2:
Kaye T. Bai
03-05-10, 09:48 PM
I'll have to agree with the bloke who mentioned the lack of modern sub simulators on the market today.
The ones that have been out are very outdated; the ship models from Dangerous Waters are the same as those from Fleet Command, for crying out loud. The graphics for Dangerous Waters were outdated even for its time. It's hard to have a successful product without appealing to a wide audience. While Dangerous Waters was a great game, it was way too complicated for the average gamer.
Imagine, Silent Hunter V in modern form. Without the online DRM and crappy voice acting. Realistic graphics, the ability to interact with your crew on a personal level (apart from fraternization, of course), and an easy to use interface and game engine.
We can always imagine.
Flopper
03-05-10, 09:58 PM
I thought it was because if there was some real action between modern subs, you would return to port and discover a nuclear wasteland.
Kaye T. Bai
03-05-10, 10:13 PM
I thought it was because if there was some real action between modern subs, you would return to port and discover a nuclear wasteland.
Wouldn't that make the genre popular?
"Post-Apocalyptic Submarine Warfare!" :DL
Takeda Shingen
03-05-10, 10:20 PM
Wouldn't that make the genre popular?
"Post-Apocalyptic Submarine Warfare!" :DL
On the Beach anyone?
Kaye T. Bai
03-05-10, 10:27 PM
On the Beach anyone?
Hello, Kings Bay Wasteland! This is your host-
Okay, getting a little carried away there.
I think the mentioned issues here give a good overview. Maybe it's a mixture between the romantic section of WWII (and there are more WWII naval movies than cold war ones) and the lack of emotion in DW.
Perhaps only a community sim could replace DW since it seems that commerical vendors have no interest.
IMO a good approach would be to have a modular appraoch: A naval simulation engine, a 3D/physics engine and so on and then various subprojects might provide plattforms etc.
But probably there are not enough people willing to do it since the communiy is rather small...
JamesT73J
03-06-10, 07:47 AM
No, SCS make a half baked effort
I don't agree with this at all. There is nothing half-baked about DW, or SC for that matter. Both are comprehensive, complex simulations of modern naval warfare. There are no competitors - before or since - on the home computer platform. Fast attack was great fun, but pretty limited in scope. I'm grateful SCS produced 688/SC/DW because they are still delivering value today. It is a niche.
As for ease of use, I think DW is markedly harder than the SH series. SH1-4 can be picked up in a matter of minutes; in DW simply reaching correct weapons employment parameters takes a fair investment of time. Many are not willing to learn hat. Ironically, DW's plotting tools are very good, the WW2 sims could learn something from the map & sensor plotting screens on SCS products. Likewise, once you get over the bump in the learning curve the fundamentals (especially in subs) are the same for most platforms. Once you learn TMA, you don't forget it.
I'd love the silent hunter series to have the same variety of physical conditions that DW has (the acoustic model in SH feels pretty simplistic) The replayability of scenarios in DW is hugely interesting; for instance playing the same scenario as different platforms is an education in itself - and it is good fun.
DW's problem is one of image. It is seen as sterile and clinical; yet it delivers tension in spades once you get into it. People just don't seem interested in putting the time in.
By the way, is still somebody in contact with Sonalysts?
Do they still have an employee who is in charge of keeping contact with the community? Just being curious.
Good question.
Silent Hunter is currently dominating the world of subsims.
DW and Jane's 688i seem great but the graphics are very out of date.
Because of war.
I got DW and the problem is the context where you play the game is not war.
WW2 subsims are based on WW2 events. Events and history we did learn at school and we can play a part of it while playing games.
What does DW offer as context ? Cold-war like and pre-War stuff.
A DW with a war going on, where you take your sub to do combat missions of all kinds while a war is going around you might add spice to it.
Do they still have an employee who is in charge of keeping contact with the community? Just being curious.
They did, now they don't. They dropped the support completely.
Frying Tiger
03-12-10, 10:24 AM
They did, now they don't. They dropped the support completely.
Well, not completely. I just assumed you all were getting tired of me saying "I don't have any new information for you" over and over.
BTW, I don't have any new information for you... (grin)
Email to "computergames(at sign)sonalysts.com" to get tech support if you need it. (not a link for spam reduction)
I'm a subsim community member (I play DW and SH4) so I'm in and out on an irregular basis. I worked on a VERY intensive non-DW project all fall and winter, and didn't have any time either at work or home to do much gaming. That's the main reason I've been scarce for a long time.
Wow .. just .. wow .. :arrgh!:
-GrayOwl-
03-12-10, 12:26 PM
Well, not completely. I just assumed you all were getting tired of me saying "I don't have any new information for you" over and over.
BTW, I don't have any new information for you... (grin)
Email to "computergames(at sign)sonalysts.com" to get tech support if you need it. (not a link for spam reduction)
I'm a subsim community member (I play DW and SH4) so I'm in and out on an irregular basis. I worked on a VERY intensive non-DW project all fall and winter, and didn't have any time either at work or home to do much gaming. That's the main reason I've been scarce for a long time.
2 years - whether not too long term for absence?
You rave - there is no support :rotfl2:
Molon Labe
03-12-10, 01:10 PM
Well, not completely. I just assumed you all were getting tired of me saying "I don't have any new information for you" over and over.
BTW, I don't have any new information for you... (grin)
Email to "computergames(at sign)sonalysts.com" to get tech support if you need it. (not a link for spam reduction)
I'm a subsim community member (I play DW and SH4) so I'm in and out on an irregular basis. I worked on a VERY intensive non-DW project all fall and winter, and didn't have any time either at work or home to do much gaming. That's the main reason I've been scarce for a long time.
Nice to hear from you again. Is the non-DW project a commercial or govt/mil project?
Frying Tiger
03-12-10, 01:53 PM
Nice to hear from you again. Is the non-DW project a commercial or govt/mil project?
Commercial. We're still working on making money in the non-simulation market. (sigh)
Non-Commercial DW continues to do very well; we haven't been able to parlay that into any news on the commercial front, unfortunately.
-GrayOwl-
03-12-10, 02:06 PM
Commercial. We're still working on making money in the non-simulation market. (sigh)
Non-Commercial DW continues to do very well; we haven't been able to parlay that into any news on the commercial front, unfortunately.
If you have informed a source of a code - we could reanimate this sim.
Or SCS will carry away it with itself in a tomb.?
By the way - how much man is real in SCS?
2 or 3 man now ? :-)
I am realized I share Sonalysts from SCS.
FIREWALL
03-12-10, 02:20 PM
I would like to see DW in a SH3 or 4 (not5) format .
I might and probably useing the wrong word.
But if it was like them I'd buy it in a minute.
btw I have DW:DL and try to play it occasionally. :yep:
Commercial. We're still working on making money in the non-simulation market. (sigh)
Non-Commercial DW continues to do very well; we haven't been able to parlay that into any news on the commercial front, unfortunately.
Nice to here from you again, Roger :).
Did you already evaluate if you could try a similar approach like Harpoon 3 or Steel Beasts?
So, you would have a basic codeline for both versions and the non-commerical one gets all the secret stuff ;), consoles + integration tools on top?
And just distributing the commerical one via download to minimize costs?
I don't know for sure but I have the impression that the combined number of sold copies of Harpoon 3 / Steel Beasts are not higher than DW...rather lower since they haven't been actively advertised...
Frying Tiger
03-12-10, 02:26 PM
If you have informed a source of a code - we could reanimate this sim.
Or SCS will carry away it with itself in a tomb.?
By the way - how much man is real in SCS?
2 or 3 man now ? :-)
SCS is still developing and using the Non-Commercial DW; unfortunately, that means we can't go open source on the commercial version.
Sonalysts as a company is very busy, and we work on lots of things besides games. (which is a good thing for our continued employment...) (grin)
I'll try to check in more often than every two years from now on. (crosses fingers...)
goldorak
03-12-10, 02:33 PM
I would like to see DW in a SH3 or 4 (not5) format .
I might and probably useing the wrong word.
But if it was like them I'd buy it in a minute.
btw I have DW:DL and try to play it occasionally. :yep:
Graphics wise you won't get it, its just not going to happen, a tactical ASW simulator with dynamic fictional campaign and intensive graphics.
But if you install the DWX mod I think you will be very pleasently surprised.
goldorak
03-12-10, 02:39 PM
SCS is still developing and using the Non-Commercial DW; unfortunately, that means we can't go open source on the commercial version.
Thats what I don't get. Our version (outside of database and other minor things) uses basically the same engine as the non commerical version. Am I right ? So if you fix bugs for the big customers, why can't those patches trickle down to our version. You know it would be great to play the frigate in multistation without fearing 100% a CTD. This was never fixed. We stopped asking for add-ons a long time ago. But the game still suffers CTD in a lot of situations.
-GrayOwl-
03-12-10, 03:16 PM
SCS is still developing and using the Non-Commercial DW; unfortunately, that means we can't go open source on the commercial version.
Sonalysts as a company is very busy, and we work on lots of things besides games. (which is a good thing for our continued employment...) (grin)
I'll try to check in more often than every two years from now on. (crosses fingers...)
Tnx for answer.
You well know - at this source there is no future for a commercial basis more.
Any new technology is not used.
Only freeware formats.
So the commercial businesses are not conducted.
Differently is simply deceit.
It Abandon soft - lagging behind from time.
Seriies Naval Sim from Sonalysts (SCS) - Finally has died.
For many people it is already clear.
Therefore do not make any deceits. :-)
You are in America.
And America should know principles of a competition - will survive a strong predator.:-)
-GrayOwl-
03-12-10, 04:07 PM
[QUOTE]=Frying Tiger;1311257]SCS is still developing and using the Non-Commercial DW; unfortunately, that means we can't go open source on the commercial version.
[QUOTE]
I wanted to ask - " Non-Commercial DW " - What is it such?
As far as I think, DW which I have is "Commercial DW" a product - as I have paid money for it.
What then is - "Non-Commercial DW "???
It is is a gift "Non-Commercial DW " :-)?
I believe what they mean by non commercial is some derivatives for the Navy?
Even so the former subsim is clearly abandonware and they could release the code, it would allow less trouble for the community to keep it alive and prepare mods.
goldorak
03-12-10, 04:59 PM
I believe what they mean by non commercial is some derivatives for the Navy?
Even so the former subsim is clearly abandonware and they could release the code, it would allow less trouble for the community to keep it alive and prepare mods.
I agree 100%, but look they don't even correct basic CTD that are still in the game after 5 years. What are the chances of them ever opening up the source ? 0.
Yes , lets be realistic, even if it costs them nothing but the satisfcation of the community, they are probably not going to do it. Fortunately, we have the likes of GrayOwl, Molon Labe and others, who spend big efforts to find solutions. Cheers to them.
However imagin what they could do it they had the sources...
kpv1974
03-14-10, 04:28 AM
SCS is still developing and using the Non-Commercial DW; unfortunately, that means we can't go open source on the commercial version.
Sonalysts as a company is very busy, and we work on lots of things besides games. (which is a good thing for our continued employment...) (grin)
I'll try to check in more often than every two years from now on. (crosses fingers...)
Whether probably to expect correction at least one serious error?
Why SH3 and 4 are way ahead in popularity then DW? player and NPCs interaction for one. When you play DW, you feel that you play alone. There's only you and the equipment and the NPC that only present in the form of acknowledgement voice. Just look at SH3. You go to the Control room where you can see your First Officer and some other crewmens and you can climb up to the bridge where and you can also see surface watchmens. crews can be recruited and gain experiance overtime. Each have specific skill. As they resume their post they'll getting fatigue overtime and need to rest, which means you need to plan your roster carefully. SH3 is a game which focus a lot on human side of the Submarine warfare as much as the Technical side. DW, SC, JFC and lot of other modern sub sims failed in this regard. In terms of gameplay, it's all freedom. You were assign a patrol sector, but once out in the sea, it's your call. you may instead sneak into portmouth and pound the harbor there with your gun, Or risk your boat challenging British ASW patrols at the Channel.
Kaye T. Bai
03-25-10, 04:51 AM
Sadly, I have to agree with fadly. (no pun intended)
The lack of the human element in Dangerous Waters was a small turn-off for me. A ship is crewed by people, not machines. The human element is what gives ships life; what gives naval combat life.
Theta Sigma
04-14-10, 01:22 PM
I believe what they mean by non commercial is some derivatives for the Navy?
IIRC, Dangerous Waters is the commercial "dumbed-down" version of the military simulator, not vice-versa.
Non-Commercial DW continues to do very well; we haven't been able to parlay that into any news on the commercial front, unfortunately.
SCS is still developing and using the Non-Commercial DW; unfortunately, that means we can't go open source on the commercial version.
I only half-expect a response here, but....I wonder if you can tell us (without discussing matters of national security) how much Non-Com DW has been updated compared to retail DW? ("a lot" - being the most infuriating answer imaginable) :)
Also, and more importantly, what you and your colleagues feel about the main interest of late being that of Russian modders? :rotfl2:
Frying Tiger
04-14-10, 04:44 PM
I only half-expect a response here, but....I wonder if you can tell us (without discussing matters of national security) how much Non-Com DW has been updated compared to retail DW? ("a lot" - being the most infuriating answer imaginable) :)
Also, and more importantly, what you and your colleagues feel about the main interest of late being that of Russian modders? :rotfl2:
No need to be infuriated... very little of it would be of any general interest to the commercial player. Non-commercial customers don't want a game, they want a tool.
We saw a localized Russian version of the game a few years back (with amusingly misleading cover art!), and there's the box of the Chinese localized version of Sub Command on the wall in the office. So no issues there.
Bubblehead Nuke
04-14-10, 06:57 PM
No need to be infuriated... very little of it would be of any general interest to the commercial player. Non-commercial customers don't want a game, they want a tool.
Wow, how interesting. We do not want a game either. We want a SIM.
TLAM Strike
04-14-10, 09:04 PM
No need to be infuriated... very little of it would be of any general interest to the commercial player. Non-commercial customers don't want a game, they want a tool. Molon Labe, Luftwolf and Me are doing our best to turn that around your commercial software in to a tool. ;)
We saw a localized Russian version of the game a few years back (with amusingly misleading cover art!), and there's the box of the Chinese localized version of Sub Command on the wall in the office. So no issues there. Really? Cool, I would like to see that!
tonibamestre
04-15-10, 09:19 AM
Affirm Frying Tiger!! A new sim from scratch would be very welcome,with improved graphics and effects,and implementing items like:
1-Global coverage
2-Major ports and Naval bases
3-Controllable Subs+CVBGs(including full operational Carriers+AirWings)
:yep::yep:
I really do not understand why WWII sims (in particular naval sims) are so much more popular than post-WWII.
I'm a modern sim enthusisit, but lately am starting to lean toward WWII sims myself.
I think the most appeal is the intrigue for the *type* of conflict that WW2 represents, rather than eqiupment/platforms. Its really the last time in history that all major world powers were fighting simultaneously. Its also the last time that a complete and utter *total war* was fought with no holding back and where losses and equipment cost were secondary. Not only that, but it was fought with remarkable parity. That's a pretty remarkable situation, one that intrigues, and captures imagination, especially since it *really* happened, not just make believe. As such a remarkable time breads more interest IMHO.
loved 688i in its day, would be great if remade with modern graphics.
Perhaps one reason is also that DW is basically an ASW sim, which is quite technical and 'slow-paced' by its nature.
I could imagine if you just include other plattforms (like fast attack boats, even coast guard ?) and include other scenarios too (hunting pirates, prosecuting/checking trawlers, which are actually smuggling drugs) and that stuff, the sim becomes more attractive to casual players.
So, the base line would be that casual players are more interested in fast-paced action and are looking more for such scenarios, which do not require a lot of technical skills.
Of course the 3D graphics would then be needed to be improved too.
I could imagine that even then add ons are possible if the price is reasonable (perhaps one add on for ASW stuff, the next more for 'coast guard' action and that stuff).
I really do not see a reason why that should not work. There's even a civilan naval vessel sim for a long time on the market and I think that the described scenarions are more attractive than just simply steering a vessel...
Comments?
tonibamestre
04-16-10, 02:49 PM
Yeah,my opinnion is that a new design from scratch is needed for the community.A game based itself on the Cold War age,involving controllable Subs and surface vessels thus including Carriers,Assault ships, etc,and able to add future expansions contemplating new platforms,weapons and systems from several worldwide Navies.
That would be a quite good start.
Weiss Pinguin
04-16-10, 04:06 PM
I'm a modern sim enthusisit, but lately am starting to lean toward WWII sims myself.
I think the most appeal is the intrigue for the *type* of conflict that WW2 represents, rather than eqiupment/platforms. Its really the last time in history that all major world powers were fighting simultaneously. Its also the last time that a complete and utter *total war* was fought with no holding back and where losses and equipment cost were secondary. Not only that, but it was fought with remarkable parity. That's a pretty remarkable situation, one that intrigues, and captures imagination, especially since it *really* happened, not just make believe. As such a remarkable time breads more interest IMHO.
For me it's the fact that during World War II, submarines were still somewhat new. The world had seen what submarines could do in the Great War, and many countries had developed and built their own submarines, but advances in technology meant the tactics and ideas developed during WWI and the interwar period had to be re-thought. On top of that, both sides spent the entire war trying to outdo each other, which lead to incredible progress: the first homing torpedoes, the first arguably modern submarines, and advances in anti-submarine weapons and tactics. They didn't have the advanced sonar and computerized systems submarines are equipped with today, and many times the equipment they did have was still being refined and sorted out, yet Allied and Axis submariners alike were able to pull off some incredible feats.
Well, that, and what LoBlo said :p2:
Phantom II
04-18-10, 12:32 AM
To answer the question, modern sub sims are much harder.
One could argue that the lack of tutorials and un-intuitive interfaces might have something to do with that. I know for sure its one of the reasons I never really tried Dangerous Waters.
JustinReg
06-08-10, 02:02 PM
Point and shoot is what is key here.
WWII you look at your target at close range, point and shoot, whatever weapon and watch the results.
Post WWII, you spend the entire time looking at sensor screen, fire at targets hundreds of miles away. Wait 20 mins for you missiles to get to the target you haven't seen and not watch the missiles terminal moments.
Nothing wrong with modern hardcore technical sims, but WWII is a lot easier for gamers as the technology was so much more basic and therefore easier to use with a fraction of the range. I don't want to use auto-crew if I can do it myself, I want to immerse myself.
This is why WWII has always been popular for games. Explosions big enough for anyone and easy to understand technology all conducted in visual range. Win, win, win.
S
The man speaks the truth. And it seems that as time goes on, the gaming world's attention span decreases. Modern high-tech warfare games, on the other hand, have to maintain a realistic (pretty slow) pace. This leads me to the unfortunate and very disappointing conclusion that modern naval warfare simulators, especially sub sims, will not be coming back any time soon. My gratitude goes out to SCS for publishing DW as it is definately the best we can expect to have in the near future.
Castout
06-10-10, 11:57 PM
DW is hard for most casual players and the graphics are not appealing at all. This deter most gamers from trying out.
Add to the fact that modern naval engagement involves top secret data and information very much the kind of information that world governments want to conceal or purposely misguide the public.
DW fell prey to this too with no exception.
For example submarine countermeasures which in Sub Command didn't detonate spoofed torpedo now do though then Sonalysts release a patch to make this optional through a probability number.
Other thing such as the towed decoy not able to detonate incoming torpedoes. But the community soon found out the truth through simple logic that if sub countermeasures did detonate spoofed torpedoes why would navy warship still tow a decoy?! :DL. That leads to the answer that sub countermeasures don't detonate torpedoes and as last resort navy warship tow torpedo decoy to detonate them.
Things like this made me believe that most government don't want to see a society well informed and knowledgeable about military aspect of the state. It's understandable though since they regard much of this as a war winning information hence the confidentiality. Public could very well also consist of members of the enemy.
I'm saying that modern military games involve and will always involve substantial dumbing down and purposeful misguided, inaccurate implementation of the real thing be it ground, sea or air warfare.
Blacklight
06-11-10, 01:39 PM
My two cents on the topic:
In this age of Xbox360 and Playstation2000's, the vast majority of people just don't have the attention span to be looking at a sonar screen for hours on end.
Seriously. I can't name ONE person out of EVERYONE I know who plays video games who would be in ANY WAY able to sit through a single Dangerous Waters mission. Some of them have even compared playing Dangerous Waters like watching paint dry. They are also NOT interested in a game that has a manual that's an inch thick. They generally want to jump right in and blow everything to smithereens.
I, on the other hand am ADDICTED to Dangerous Waters a hell of a lot more than I am to Silent Hunter III. To me, DW is FULL of tension as you're sneaking around or trying to track things without being seen. But your average video gamer isn't going to see that. All they'll see is you looking at a sonar screen for hours.
raymond6751
06-11-10, 02:57 PM
My two cents on the topic:
In this age of Xbox360 and Playstation2000's, the vast majority of people just don't have the attention span to be looking at a sonar screen for hours on end.
The Silent Hunter subsims are all PC games, but I agree with the above about wanting to have something to look at.
For me, it's the sights and sounds of being at sea. Rolling waves, wind, the sunsets, the moon, and the visuals within the boats too.
Ducimus
06-11-10, 03:22 PM
The Silent Hunter subsims are all PC games, but I agree with the above about wanting to have something to look at.
For me, it's the sights and sounds of being at sea. Rolling waves, wind, the sunsets, the moon, and the visuals within the boats too.
I was about to post something like these lines. Aside from the historical aspect (modern sub sims are "what if" scenarios as far as i know) WW2 sims are more fun to me because you have more dimensions to play with. Surfaced, and submerged. For instance, i used to think the Type21 was the coolest sub to play with.... until i acutally played with one. It was utterly boring, because i simply didn't need to surface anymore. It was like one dimension of the game was removed, and i didn't enjoy that much.
aergistal
06-11-10, 03:43 PM
I think graphic presentation does matter a lot. Otherwise we wouldn't be such suckers for ads. Think of the normal distribution, the gauss curve. There will be few people interested only in the accuracy of the simulation and few people interested in graphics alone (since we're talking about a sim game and not an arcade game). Similarly there will be few people wanting to play as real as it gets and also few who'd prefer no challenge at all.
The majority lies in between. When it comes to choosing a product, only a few will look for the complete features and take them into consideration. Those interested in graphics would dismiss the game if it doesn't look good before getting to know how actually good the product is and how captivating it could get even without flashy eye-candy.
If the game looks good and is attractive then you can get caught in it and it lets you wanting to know more. I reckon that because I like SH I ended up joining this forum and got to learn a lot more about submarines.
I don't think graphics should be dismissed in a sim, as long as the eye candy does not adversely impact the simulation engine as we all know there's a limit of computations that can be done in 1/30 of a second.
The most complete sim I ever got my hands on was a training software for the Airbus A310. I had to persuade the father of one my childhood friends, a pilot flying the real thing, to copy it for me. It ran under DOS, had only a few mega and it simulated a great deal of stuff (I remember spending a lot of time trying to setup the on-board computer before take-off 'cause the thing wouldn't even start without those being set). It consisted only of the on-board instruments, all crammed in one screen. Although fun for a while you sure wanted to take a look outside from time to time instead of imagining how it would look like.
All is true about graphics being vital to the success of a game or even a simulation. The average gamer is all about sensation, not cogitation, and so has little interest in a game/sim who's playing relies almost entirely on the latter. But even a hardcore simmer wants good graphics. For one thing, a simulation is supposed to be as real as possible and thus the graphics need to be as real as possible. Graphics can also greatly effect visual aspects of play such as the periscope, visual sub spotting, air warfare, night/poor weather operations, and on and on because real life warfare involves one hell of a lot of visual detection, tracking and assesing.
This will all most likely kill my own simming career because I'm legally blind. For the most part, the better the graphics get, the harder it is for me to tell what's going on or even where the controls are. But all said and done, the emphasis of thinking over looking and shooting is what makes modern warfare of all types appealing to me as a simmer and that won't change no matter how good the graphics get.
The harder you have to think and strategise, the less time you have to gawk at the eye-candy.
I agree to most of the statements above. One thing one should mention is maybe the higher frustration factor that occurs the more complex and realistic a sim gets. And also the technical requirements increase the better the physics are. That could lead to higher hardware costs (look at contemporary flight sims that are hard to play without HOTAS systems and TIR against human opponents).
If you combine all arguments as seen above it's IMHO rather obvious that the market for high end sims is shrinking. A reason for software studios not do develop hardcore sims - unfortunately.
What I really miss in DW is the atmosphere of being on a ship. I don't feel staying on a bridge. It would be nice to have the imagination of sitting in a "room" (maybe with the possibility to look around) and to have more "busy" ambient noises (people talking or moving, alerts, etc.). That's even more important for me than the outdated 3D models. And I would love to see ships with a realistic movement in the waves... :O:
As the music changes in case of action it should be possible to change ambient noises from "relaxed" to "alarmed" too, or not?
Btw.: Am I right that the core code of SCS' products is similar? I once imagined a merged version of DW and FC - either playing the admiral or jumping into a single unit. Maybe fun in single player missions?
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