My Periscope vs SH5's Periscope

[Frederf]

Looking at the periscope views in Silent Hunter 5 videos has gotten me down. The design philosophy that has started in Silent Hunter 3 (or before? I haven't played anything previous) has unfortunately fallen into a narrow-minded rut with regards to the periscope interface. Small tweaks and addons have grown from SH3 to SH4 to SH5 when what's really needed is a whole new breath of fresh air to the concept.

http://www.squick.org/ffa/bin/Pericope%20copy.jpg
If this doesn't strike you as wrong, I don't know what will.

Too long the idea has been to bog down the player in a bevy of 2D GUI elements that really have no basis in reality. If real Kaluns and Captains of WWII managed to sail their vessels without the benefit of a 2D GUI, surely us video game players can manage keeping such effrontery to a low roar. The 3D submarine interior art is getting better all the time... why aren't we utilizing it properly?!

I present to you a tasty glimpse of beautiful focus and simplicity.

http://www.squick.org/ffa/bin/Pericope3%20copy.jpg
Ahh, isn't that better?

But what about those functions that are stripped, won't they be missed? Here we take a case-by-case basis view of all the commands & displays on the original periscope interface and either move, hide, or delete them.

http://www.squick.org/ffa/bin/PericopeCircles%20copy.jpg
The offenders that need to go aware (red) and the annoyances that don't need to be permanent (green).



Status icon - Whoopdeedoo. Who needs these things? What are they? A brief flash maybe to get your attention but after 3-5 seconds they should be gone! Globe and watch can get their own periscope, this one belongs to the captain!

A "you're underwater" status, TC control, TC quick buttons, shortcuts to stations... really? You guys have to intrude on my personal time with sweet Lady Eyepiece, REALLY? We know we're underwater, TC control is a keyboard thing that can fade quickly after use, and any stations I can walk to or give orders to from where I'm standing. Gone!!
There's no such thing as this bearing readout. It's complete fiction. Bearings are read (most of the time by helper crew and not the player) off the exterior of the periscope. Gone!!
I'm pointed at a ship, I know. Happy bubble not necessary... GONE!!
Recognition manual while looking through the periscope? I'm one talented 5-eyed Kalun... Gone.
Minimap, ugh. Digital depth readout, what? Happy permanent preset depth buttons? No thanks, how often do I change depth anyway? If I want to change depth next week I'll give an order using the order interface. 9 gear submarine, how hot rod. If I want to change speed I'll give an order, until then go away! If I want to know what speed I'm going I will look away from the periscope and look at the gauge on the wall... just like Mr. Big Daddy Real Life Kalun! All of it is OUTTA HERE!
Torpedo settings... what am I ordering these changes or am I turning the screws myself? Make up your mind. If I am ordering these changes then I'll use the orders interface, if I am turning the screws myself then I need a new crew! Torpedoes were prepared before the attack, attacks take time and cooperation. This is standard submarine gameplay Silent Hunter! All of this junk is bye-bye!
Ok, this is talking to your crew, something that real Kaluns did in real submarines while having their real bushy eyebrows pressed up against real periscopes. However I don't need his speech balloon and chat buffer clogging up my view 100% of the time, just when I need him. This interaction gets relegated to pop up, minimalist, crew orders/interaction 2D UI.
Why is my sonar operator texting me like we're facebook buddies?! Surely we can combine and/or standardize all crew verbal interactions. Why is this different visually than talking to my XO? Does my young hydrophone operator really speak with a white background while my manly XO talks with the classic gray background from southern Austria? Can we have faith that the audio alone is sufficient most of the time and hide, fade, make optional the WoW text chat buffer nonsense?

Orders Interface

If you think of the Captain giving orders to the crew, you think of a conversation. Do conversations happen in rusty, bolted on steel panels with dials? No. Do options for conversational topics hang in the air all the time waiting to be said? No. Conversations are initiated, constructed, executed, and then dismissed. Naturally SH5's orders should follow these guidelines. As captain I should be able to raise my voice out of notion, quickly get to the point, speak the command, and then let the conversation "close" back again to nothing so I can continue my tasks.

From nothing...
This means any interaction with the boat & crew other than real, physical touching of controls by the captain himself should be invisible and absent until such a time as that interaction is called for.

Breaking the silence...
When the captain speaks he commands. Holding down a large, friendly key such as space bar, a semi-transparent overlay pops up giving the captain power to construct a verbal command with the clarity and immediacy that mimics real vocalization.

Making it happen...As the order interface is clicked on or the orders overlay is dismissed (by releasing the held space bar or by dismissing a toggled arrangement), the captain verbalizes his order and the chain of events that makes that happen begins. Often this means time will pass until the effect occurs. This is good as it makes the player feel that he is on a 2000 ton submarine with 60 men and not an iPhone app.

Back to nothing...
As the order is finished the captain returns to observing only the 3D world around him, making the player feel at one and "there" on the boat.

http://www.squick.org/ffa/bin/PericopeOrders.jpg
A very rough design of what the orders overlay might look like

[ETR3(SS)]

I gotta say I agree with you. But I gotta say what would do the sim wonders is voice commands instead of click here or click there.:up:

[Frederf]

Periscope View as Momentary

Our common Silent Hunter view of the periscope view is strange and warped. We expect that being at this view is a permanent, homey situation. As such we expect all of the necessary controls for the entire torpedo attack be viewed simultaneously on this "home" screen. It is this view that is fundamentally flawed and creates such a weird, unhistorical, non-immersed feeling.

Instead, I would like to see a Silent Hunter where the Captain (during the attack) is at home near but not looking through the periscope. Looking through the eyepiece should feel like something that is singular in purpose and not a place where one could fall asleep comfortably.

Actions Done Near Periscope


Recognition manual
Checking TDC data
Observing speed, heading, depth repeaters
Controlling torpedo tube doors
Setting stadimeter horizontal-vertical
Setting stadimeter target height
Checking periscope bearing
Raising/lowering periscope
Turning periscope
Checking periscope depth meter
Plotting or viewing plotted contacts

Actions Done Looking Through Periscope


Turning periscope
Switching magnifications (with visual effect!)
Adjusting split-image stadimeter (mousewheel!)
Firing torpedo (GUI order or keyboard)

Lowering or raising the periscope outside of a certain range should kick the player out of that view. It is impossible to look out of the 'scope when it is below the deck plate!

For this concept to fly, navigation of view from periscope-near to periscope-through must be natural, fast, and uncomplicated. I would suggest right-mouse for the toggle if the controls are like SH4. Once for going from "near" to "through" and the same for "through" to "near." Double right-clicking might automatically retract the periscope or extend the periscope to/from a meter or so below the surface for stealth. In real life, addressing the periscope and pulling away from the eyepiece back and forth, back and forth along with raising and lowering must have been natural, second-nature motions for the captain. The control scheme should strive diligently to replicate the ease of switching onto and away from the eyepiece as it's going to happen a lot.


Large Periscope, Magnification, and Resolution

Previous modified Silent Hunter games have struggled with the problem of periscope magnification. Using historical magnification values, coupled with the relatively low resolution of computer monitors has meant a sighting performance below that of real life. Modifications have made the decision to increase magnification to fictional levels desiring to replicate real world results in terms of overall performance when recognizing flags, etc. The lesson in all of this is simple, the bigger the periscope's view on the computer monitor, the better. Only by having the round viewable area meet or even exceed the rectangular box of the computer monitor's frame can Silent Hunter hope to appease both masters of historical magnification and historical sighting performance. Silent Hunter 5's default periscope view makes poor use of available screen space.


Real-World Restrictions

Like the restrictions on at what level of extension it is possible to look through the eyepiece, there are many other subtleties of periscope use that have been missing from previous Silent Hunter games.


Vibration due to high speed
Flooding and fogging due to battle damage and poor maintenance
Damage from unsupported surface high-periscope use in heavy seas
Poor low-light performance
Unacceptable night performance

[CaptainHaplo]

I have to say - a well thought out arguement for removing alot of the clutter. However, remember who the game is aimed at - not just the sim buyer - but the casual gamer crowd. Because of that - the accessibility needs to be there.

However, I do like the idea of OPTIONS to turn it all off and select a overlay effect as you suggest. If it doesn't come out like that - expect it to be modded in!

[FIREWALL]

Excellent post Frederf :up: :salute:




QUOTE=CaptainHaplo;1270259]I have to say - a well thought out arguement for removing alot of the clutter. However, remember who the game is aimed at - not just the sim buyer - but the casual gamer crowd. Because of that - the accessibility needs to be there.

However, I do like the idea of OPTIONS to turn it all off and select a overlay effect as you suggest. If it doesn't come out like that - expect it to be modded in![/QUOTE]

I couldn't have said it better Capt.H :salute:

[Heretic]

Wow... That's some inspired imagineering. The first person perspective really lends itself to a different way of looking at things. In the previous games, you were the captain, but you were also more than just the captain, if that makes any sense?

I really hope you'd consider going ahead with this line of thinking for the rest of the UI and sharing it with us. Even if you don't mod it yourself, it's great inspiration.

[THE_MASK]

Now this is the sort of post i like . Imagine this with voice recognition and Nividia 3D hardware and 120hz monitor.
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/7258/sh5a.jpg (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/sh5a.jpg/)

[Frederf]

The thing is, I don't believe the clutter to be very "casual-friendly" either. I think the clutter is no good for anyone. A complex and, let's be frank, clinical interface is exactly the opposite to what the casual audience would want. Making Silent Hunter look like MS Office with buttons, drop downs, and such can't appeal to the predictable visceral, visual, real wants of the so called casuals.

Clicking this abstract representation, clicking that 2D dial... how unemotional. Isn't it a baser, more emotional instinct to grab the real world controls as they appear before you in 3D instead of letting them be a pretty backdrop for an in-essence 2D adventure?

[Onkel Neal]

Great concepts, Fred, hope you don't mind if I make this the inaugural threads in the SH5 Mods forum. :salute:

Carry on.

[GermanGS]

I love your thinking.

A scope on the whole screen will shure give the player the ability to see more. and understand one's surroundings much better.:cool:

[finchOU]

100% agree! this has been a top issue with me for a long time! it should take up a whole screen...

you forgot to mention that having all that extra stuff can degrade night vision especially if its white light! It makes it harder to break out those are to see targets.

[Onkel Neal]

100% agree! this has been a top issue with me for a long time! it should take up a whole screen...

you forgot to mention that having all that extra stuff can degrade night vision especially if its white light! It makes it harder to break out those are to see targets.


Yes, definitely I agree with making the red lighting apply to Ship ID charts and everything. :yep:

[magic452]

Very good Frederf :yeah:
The periscope screen in the most important element in the whole game, all the rest is just to get you to that point.

As it now it's the single worse thing I've seen in the game even bigger than the DRM thing. Having the scope off set to the right and so small is a total immersion killer for me, you are looking at a screen and not through a periscope.

What you are suggesting is a very big improvement.

I've never played SH3 so my only experience is with 4 and I use the maxoptics mod so the periscope takes up about 90% of the screen, your whole focus is on what is in the scope.

Your near or through the scope idea sounds great.

Magic

[THE_MASK]

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4701/peri4copy.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/peri4copy.jpg/)

[Feuer Frei!]

Wow......awesome post! Hope this is realized.....
:yeah::up:

[Tomi_099]

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4701/peri4copy.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/peri4copy.jpg/)

@SOBER !!
:up:ABSOLUT AMAZING !!! I LOVE IT !!!:rock:

[martes86]

Those are some good ideas. Maybe they can be carried out when SH5 comes out.

[Frederf]

you forgot to mention that having all that extra stuff can degrade night vision especially if its white light! It makes it harder to break out those are to see targets.

Very good point. Trying to strain to see on a dark night past bright white distractions on the periscope view is a pain. It actually requires more work from the developers to do all of the periscope view in both day and night versions. By making a "universal" simple periscope the developers only need make one version for all times of day. Less work!

Sober's PictureYes, render-to-texture where the outside view is rendered onto the eyepiece is nice. It may be not super realistic if one normally presses up tight to the eyepiece such that it consumes the full eye's view but at least it keeps the world in one piece for the player. It does take a stronger computer and a more advanced game engine to render-to-texture an outside view as well as an inside scene.

voice commandVoice control could be awesome. It's a layer above and beyond what's described here and could just as well be applied to the stock SH5 interface as my alternate "reimagined" one. It seems obvious that a game where the player is a captain of a large crew where most actions are representative of real life verbal orders that harnessing the player's voice to accomplish his tasks is the most natural. Flight sims use joysticks, racing games use wheels, surely naval captain games use a microphone?

I'd like to think of a multi-zone space that is functional practically for real torpedo targeting tasks. I'm a bit lazy to get out photoshop so I'll see what I can do in text. Imagine each box is a station and the lines between boxes show which stations are accessed from other stations. We try to construct a natural flow where each station does its task with adequate focus but there are not so many stations that the overhead of transitioning stations distracts from the job at hand.


[REPEATER DIALS] [TDC]
| |
| |
[EYEPIECE]---[PERISCOPE BODY]---[CONNING TOWER]---[CONTROL ROOM]
| |
| |
[REC. MANUAL] [PLOTTING BOARD]

[609_Avatar]

Excellent concept and exactly what I would want!!! :yeah:

[karamazovnew]

Ever since we've learned that we no longer have to mod the interface in Notepad, I've been asking myself how much freedom we will have in modding SH5. Here's why... SH3 was blocked at one resolution and aspect ratio, making modding a bit easier. The position was given as relative to a parent. SH4 made things much harder due to 2 main reasons:
1: multiple resolutions which were brilliantly controlled using just 2 variables, allowing a LOT of flexibility in positioning and scaling items, but a nightmare to plan ahead.
2: German AND American interfaces: which were only possible by making the interfaces as simple as possible and loading items through an external index file. All identical items (like the backgrounds) were rewired through the image address by hardcode). Not a major pain in the ass, but still...

All in all:

1. Making new items:
____1.1: Static images: easy to do
____1.2: New buttons: impossible to do, as only the items in the Layout Page could accept commands. The only way was to make DIALS and hide the needle. Dials could indeed process commands but it was then impossible to show "pushed" status.
____1.3: Making new circular dials: extremely easy to do, but we were prevented from adding dials in all the screens.
____1.4: Making new linear dials: not so easy. The only one I know of is OLC's linear compass.
____1.5: Creating new variables: impossible

2. Rewiring hardcoded items:
____2.1: Moving a hard-coded item from one screen to another: impossible (at least in SH4)
____2.2: Changing the type of an object: impossible to do but it could be emulated
____2.3: All other changes were possible and easy: position, image

3. Hard-coded items:
____3.1: the periscopes bearing line (dial)
____3.3: the periscope depth (impossible to scale up with resolution to do the formula it used
____3.3: torpedo buttons
____3.4: stadimeter button: there was no command visible
____3.5: in SH4, the retractable panels: quite moddable as you could move them to either side and make them as big as you wanted. But there were only 2 of them for the Uboats and 3 for the Fleet boats.
____3.6: most labels (understandable because of the need for 2 languages in the interface)
____3.7: those zoomed order dials which increased by a fixed ratio
____3.8: the order bar in SH4. A bit easier to add items but I wish we had the old type of integrated orders.

The major problems in modding the interface were due to these facts:
1. most hard-coded items don't obey normal rules (that includes the hiding panels) AND those rules are never accessible because they are buried deep inside unaccessible code.
2. not all commands are visible (the stadimeter for example)
3. impossible to create new dial viariables
4. impossible to mod the key/mouse commands
5. impossible to change some camera behavior
6. impossible to create scripts.

Until we actually have a look at the SH5 interface files, and by interface I also mean the 3D one, we can't know if a clean interface is even possible. You see, just cleaning up the periscope is not enough, you need to do a LOT of changes to integrate everything nicely.

As for voice commands, a long time ago, in the SH5 page I asked about making commands compatible with voice applications.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=156171

Such parametric commands would also have a MAJOR impact on the interface itself and the way we send data to the game engine.

As a default interface, I think SH5 sports a very slick interface. I quite like it the way it is now. It already hints to a lot of possibilities and it also seems very easy to clean up fast :up:. But I doubt that it will be possible to make a full immersive 3d interface. It all depends on mouse/keyboard and camera controls and how far we're allowed to scripts things.

[martes86]

As I recall, UI elements seemed to form the backbone of the Python coding, so I don't see why that kind of stuff couldn't be modded.

Cheers

[LtCmdrMaverick]

How you fellas even know where to start with these things always amazes me and I commend you, for what is now, just your thought process. I hope you can make it a reality and this is by far the best, and most promising, thread concerning SH5 that I have read since the full details of the game were released.

Nice one Gentlemen :salute::salute::salute:

Maverick

[Sailor Steve]

My take:

I present to you a tasty glimpse of beautiful focus and simplicity.
Ahh, isn't that better?
Yes, it's perfect! I've rooted for something like this ever since SH2.

Sober's picture: I don't like it. At least I didn't at first, because the periscope view is small and reminds me of the one in SH2, which I hated.

But further reading has got me thinking. Most of Frederf's comments are true; none of that stuff should be in the interface. Some of it comes in handy sometimes, though, like the dialogue boxes or the ID book. I was rooting for slide-outs, like the ones that have been modded into SH3.

And then I thought again: Nothing in the periscope view. Right-click, and you're looking at Sober's view from outside the periscope, and there are all the boxes handy where you want them (or just the ones you want - removable and all that).

Actually I don't mind having some of the boxes, if I can just put them in the corners so they're there if I want them.

When the captain speaks he commands. Holding down a large, friendly key such as space bar, a semi-transparent overlay pops up giving the captain power to construct a verbal command with the clarity and immediacy that mimics real vocalization.
That is sheer genius! I love it!

[AVGWarhawk]

And so it begins! The gears are turning. The imagination is warming up. The know-how is on the table. I love seeing imaginitive minds at work....especially with SH games! :rock:

[col_Kurtz]

Yes, yes and yes... Fred. That`s right and this is a simply way with one thick at start the game, sholud be: Preffesional simulation or amateur: yes or not, if not... a lot of thick just like in the SH4, real this, real that... feul, batteries, dudes etc. Is it simply?
I`m the amateur but I think it should be free choice for the gamer and the game should be for me or for hard mariner... I don`t like mannualy recognizing. That`s right too many options icons, baloons etc... Huh... I hope it will be better than SH4... SH4 first patch, second, third... UBM and... English language on the German sub :wah:
Yeah, I know, it`s just a game, and it`s a simulation of what? Of real life and war and I want to feel it on my back and my temples, am I right? And history real history is important too!
I think they can make the game in one for casuals and for proffesionals. Just one thick ;)
But, but... If I remember short text from one gamesite it should be possible. So I hope that video is for new players for new buyers. If yes, should be OK. I hope :)
The end,
sorry and thank you for your patience

[Highbury]

Excellent well thought out OP. I agree 100%

Voice control could be awesome. It's a layer above and beyond what's described here and could just as well be applied to the stock SH5 interface as my alternate "reimagined" one. It seems obvious that a game where the player is a captain of a large crew where most actions are representative of real life verbal orders that harnessing the player's voice to accomplish his tasks is the most natural. Flight sims use joysticks, racing games use wheels, surely naval captain games use a microphone?

You know, even in my racing sims I use a microphone... in rFactor there is a 3rd Part App which simulates your Team Boss/Crew Chief on the radio. He tells you lap times, how others are doing etc. The interesting thing is they also have it so I can ask questions, give input into if I want damages fixed on a pitstop, and all verbally in a game that has no voice recognition built in. You can even configure it to recognize the phrase, or phrases you want to use for a certain command. If a 3rd Party developer could create this for rFactor, there is a real possibility someone could do the same for a Kaleun at the periscope feeding speed, bearing etc to his crew!

[SeaStorm]

Very interesting thread. Keep it up. :)

[etheberge]

Frederf, that is one great post with a lot of fantastic ideas:yeah:. I have just one point regarding the part below.


There's no such thing as this bearing readout. It's complete fiction. Bearings are read (most of the time by helper crew and not the player) off the exterior of the periscope. Gone!!

I understand that in real life there was no bearing readout when looking through the scope but I feel it might be important to keep it there as a concession to gameplay.

After all in real life you would always know the approximate bearing that you're looking at just by the position of your body relative to the sub. Unfortunately we don't have that sensory feedback when sitting in front of a computer screen.

I fear it would be easy to become disoriented when looking through the scope without the bearing readout, especially when tracking multiple targets and swiveling the scope all over the place.

Perhaps it could be left there but be made less precise? For example only leave marks for 0', 90', 180' and 270'? Then if a precise bearing is required it could be requested from the crew by a button or other means.

Other than that, I agree with almost everything you wrote and I hope we can all turn it into a reality.

[Platapus]

As I understand it, the Kaluen got the bearings from removing his eye from the eye piece and looking up. He would then verbally call out the bearing to the Officer manning the TDC who was standing sideways to the Periscope. This officer is not in a good position to look over his left shoulder and read bearings. In fact, I don't think the stationary periscope had the capability of having the bearings read from the back end (I could be wrong).

This was different from Fleet Subs where the Captain had a dancing partner at the periscope.

I really like limiting the Kaluen's actions when looking through the periscope. He should only be able to manipulate the periscope and verbally communicate with the crew. If the Kaluen needed to look at something (bearing, TDC) he had to remove his eyes from the eye piece (losing visual contact with the target by the way) and look at what needed looking at. The game should be designed to make it easy and quick for the Kaluen to take a quick peek at the bearing indicator above his head and then go back to the periscope view.

The recognition manual is a bit more tricky. I imagine that if the Kaluen was not able to visually identify the target, he would verbally describe the ship to the IWO (as in the movie The Enemy Below). It would be the IWO who would flip through the recognition manual. This can bring up interesting results if the experience of the IWO can be factored (e.i., the IWO miss-identifies the target either due to his inexperience or due to errors in what the Kaluen told him.)

Unless this communication between the Kaluen and the IWO can be simulated in the game, I am afraid the the best compromise is to have the Kaluen look at the scope and the manual at the same time.

I also like the idea of the Kaluen verbally commanding the sub. This is realism.

But for game-playing ability, there needs to be a way to simulate a Kaluen talking to one of his crew. Voice recognition would be great and it worked pretty good with Enigma Rising. If we can't have VR then we are stuck with some version of either keyboard or mouse to somehow construct a spoken sentence. This can be awkward.

This is why in past SH it seemed like the Kaluen is doing everything -- mostly because there was no good simple way to simulate spoken orders. It is acceptable for the crew to do the job for the Kaluen, but unlike the god-like weapons officer, the crew can only do their job based on the observations (with errors) made by the Kaluen.

I think some of the ideas in this thread are excellent and clearly represented a lot of good critical thought.

And I am most appreciative of the respectful participation in this thread.

[THE_MASK]

The recognition manual is a bit more tricky. I imagine that if the Kaluen was not able to visually identify the target, he would verbally describe the ship to the IWO (as in the movie The Enemy Below). It would be the IWO who would flip through the recognition manual. This can bring up interesting results if the experience of the IWO can be factored (e.i., the IWO miss-identifies the target either due to his inexperience or due to errors in what the Kaluen told him.).
or mod the rec manual so that you might have 2 or three pages of the same ship but all slightly diffrent , then you might make a mistake and tick the wrong one yourself .

[shark11]

you have hint the nail on the head,I hate that periscope , am not to shore about SH5 now, its the 1940s not 2010, I wont to be in a u-boat in the 1940s to see what they would see to hear what they would hear, to work it out and get on with it, when I do a crash dive it should have German bells not American,
I have not heard them speak in german yet,and you dont really own the game if you bye it realy you are renting it,you have to be on line all the time, I have a hard time as it is playing on line with the it comeing from the other sind of the world there is allways a delay, and it ends 1943 just when the fun starts,:damn: I love the first person and to walk around the sub its great but the rest, I want to feel like I am there,
thank you....

[Frederf]

Until we actually have a look at the SH5 interface files, and by interface I also mean the 3D one, we can't know if a clean interface is even possible.

You see, just cleaning up the periscope is not enough, you need to do a LOT of changes to integrate everything nicely.

As a default interface, I think SH5 sports a very slick interface. I quite like it the way it is now. I doubt that it will be possible to make a full immersive 3d interface. It all depends on mouse/keyboard and camera controls and how far we're allowed to scripts things.

You give an excellent insight into the practical aspect of modding and UI design. Indeed getting the 2D and 3D worlds to play nice together with variable resolutions, languages, etc. is a challenge. Scripting power is of course very useful to overcome the challenges of modding and creating.

The very truth is said! Cleaning up the periscope is only the inciting incident into a much bigger task... changing the "home" away from the old 2D periscope screen and moving all of the tools away from the eyepiece means that we must construct a brand new home! I only hint at how this new home rises from the ashes of a decluttered eyepiece when really more detailed explanation is required.

A full 3D interface is of course very nice but I realize that 3D takes a lot of work and has some shortcomings. To do everything in 3D then you need very sharp textures (which takes a lot of VRAM and RAM), good lighting, player control (what if the knob is on the back of something?), view control, etc. 2D definitely has a place in a modern game but always 3D should be tried first and 2D only if it is necessary and a better alternative.

Here is a small example of a limited, considered 2D GUI implementation in a predominately 3D game world. Take the stadimeter target height wheel on the side of the periscope. In reality this is set to the height of the object to be measured by the stadimeter before looking through the eyepiece. One could strive to make this dial fully 3D so the player operates it (or is automated to match rec manual on easy difficulty) but this can be troublesome. The dial might be hard to see directly when placed square in front of the periscope, could be hard to read and manipulate accurately in 3D, etc.

Instead we can combine the best of 3D and 2D for a good compromise. In this way the 3D dial is a "hotzone" that is clicked which pops up a smallish 2D "dial-tool" so we can set our desired setting, read and manipulate it easily, dismiss it quickly, and go on living in a 3D world. The 2D is tolerated only briefly and is "task specific" meaning that I don't have to stare at a vast page of 30 dials when all I care about is one of them. This is also easier to program so the development is quicker.

Sober's picture: I don't like it. At least I didn't at first, because the periscope view is small and reminds me of the one in SH2, which I hated.

handy sometimes, though, like the dialogue boxes or the ID book. I was rooting for slide-outs, like the ones that have been modded into SH3.

Nothing in the periscope view. Right-click, and you're looking at Sober's view from outside the periscope, and there are all the boxes handy where you want them (or just the ones you want - removable and all that).

I think there is some room for Sober's picture's idea. Size would only be a factor of zoom or position so consider that a small detail. Slide outs perhaps, but not over the eyepiece view but over the periscope-addressed-but-not-sighted view. Having a Sober's view when at the home position of periscope-addressed but allowing a more detailed view when in true "eyepiece" mode would provide a nice aesthetic/continuity touch.

I'm the amateur but I think it should be free choice for the gamer and the game should be for me or for the hard mariner... I don't like mannualy recognizing. That's right too many options icons, baloons etc... Huh... I hope it will be better than SH4... SH4 first patch, second, third... UBM and... English language on the German sub :wah:
Yeah, I know, it`s just a game, and it`s a simulation of what? Of real life and war and I want to feel it on my back and my temples, am I right? And history real history is important too!
I think they can make the game in one for casuals and for professionals. Just one thing ;)

Making the game playable by amateur, professional, and everything in between is a noble goal. I think it's certainly possible to cover this spectrum without subjecting anyone to silly cartoon interface land.

no bearing readout when looking through the scope but I feel it might be important to keep it there as a concession to gameplay.

After all in real life you would always know the approximate bearing that you're looking at just by the position of your body relative to the sub. Unfortunately we don't have that sensory feedback when sitting in front of a computer screen.

I fear it would be easy to become disoriented when looking through the scope without the bearing readout, especially when tracking multiple targets and swiveling the scope all over the place.

Perhaps it could be left there but be made less precise? For example only leave marks for 0', 90', 180' and 270'? Then if a precise bearing is required it could be requested from the crew by a button or other means.

Other than that, I agree with almost everything you wrote and I hope we can all turn it into a reality.

I understand the bearing readout is a concession to gameplay but I'd like to revisit how necessary it is. There are many ways to not have a glass-etched bearing tape and yet still maintain easy reference to bearing and a good kinesthetic sense of periscope position. Sober's view for instance should provide a good feel of periscope direction and if the unsighted periscope-addressed view allowed easy and quick reference to the bearing markings, then it might be OK. Your concern is a very valid one but I hope we explore the more authentic alternatives before evaluating the situation as hopeless.

If you watch the YouTube recreation of a USN fleet boat in action you can see that the fact the captain doesn't see the bearing ring while sighted is not a problem. Again, shifting the perception away from the eyepiece as home position means that information-lack while in eyepiece mode is less important. If most of the captain's time is spent in the information rich periscope-addressed home position and not the sighted mode, less ouch is felt.

The captain yells "Mark!" and another helper crew member(s) reads off the bearing looking at the bearing ring. Similarly radar ranges, stadimeter results, etc do not actually have to be known (first) by the captain before they can be used for plotting/TDC. Perhaps this same idea can translate into the game where the player-captain calls for a measurement and can hear the AI crew in the background shout out in turn "Range, 3-0-0-0." "Bearing 265." It is useful for the captain to be able to see these values too but not necessarily every time.

[Frederf]

As I understand it, the Kaluen got the bearings from removing his eye from the eye piece and looking up.
This was different from Fleet Subs where the Captain had a dancing partner at the periscope.

Oh see I didn't know that. I'm sure procedures varied slightly (or a lot) kaluen to kaluen but researching the textbook method of firing party (or KM equiv.) interaction would be a great place to start when designing the interaction of all the targeting-plotting elements in SH5. Sadly, this is knowledge I don't have but I know it's got to be strong in the Subsim community.

The game should be designed to make it easy and quick for the Kaluen to take a quick peek at the bearing indicator above his head and then go back to the periscope view.

Certainly if such an action was common, quick, and natural in real life it should be made so in SH5 as well. Clunky controls suit no one. I would go so far as to say if no suitable method is found for fast/easy glancing up from eyepiece to bearing can be found that it is appropriate to simultaneously display eyepiece and bearing ring perhaps as some of 90%/10% split-screen effect. I think it'd be fine to stretch a bearing tape across the top of the entire eyepiece screen for practical reasons.

However the practice of making the illusion that the bearing tape is actually an optical effect etched onto the glass is rather sickening. There's no real excuse to misrepresent reality when a more honest and easier to read method is so obvious.

The recognition manual is a bit more tricky. I imagine that if the Kaluen was not able to visually identify the target, he would verbally describe the ship to the IWO (as in the movie The Enemy Below). It would be the IWO who would flip through the recognition manual. This can bring up interesting results if the experience of the IWO can be factored (e.i., the IWO miss-identifies the target either due to his inexperience or due to errors in what the Kaluen told him.)

Unless this communication between the Kaluen and the IWO can be simulated in the game, I am afraid the the best compromise is to have the Kaluen look at the scope and the manual at the same time.

You're very right that the recognition manual is very tricky. Obviously you cannot have a normal, human conversation with AI crew like "Oh, it's a coal steamer, medium size, split deck, 2 short-fat funnels, light rigging." The AI or any possible UI simply can't cope with that.

Personally I think that flipping between the book view and eyepiece view (not simultaneously) would make an acceptable one-man job of it, but more thought and research (vs. real life) on how that could work is deserved.

[Platapus]

Since the computer can't handle our spoken syntax, another way, albeit awkward would be for the computer to play "20 questions" with the player

1. Warship or Merchant ship? Merchant
2. How many funnels? one
3. Where are they located? Stern
4. Any derricks? none
5. ......

but as you can see building a dichotomous key like can get complicated and awkward.

[ryanglavin]

Since the computer can't handle our spoken syntax, another way, albeit awkward would be for the computer to play "20 questions" with the player

1. Warship or Merchant ship? Merchant
2. How many funnels? one
3. Where are they located? Stern
4. Any derricks? none
5. ......

but as you can see building a dichotomous key like can get complicated and awkward.

It would seem to complicated, and robotic. I would rather just be able to have 1 hand on the scope and one hand in the recognition manual.

[COWBOY10]

Stunning Idea, I for one, would install a mod like this in a heartbeat. The SH5 Scope just seems to modern to me. Im sure its functional, BUT if we have a realistic boat to walk round, we need a realistic scope. I cant wait to see what our modders come up with, If its as moddable as promised, I think we may have a very very bright future ahead of us.

As to Ship Manual, Just give us a Paper one, Like we got with SH4 collectors, Can have it sat on desk, Problem solved
:)

[Sailor Steve]

As to Ship Manual, Just give us a Paper one, Like we got with SH4 collectors, Can have it sat on desk, Problem solved
:)
More than 70 new ship models have been made for SH3. Good idea, but it would get out-of-date fast.

[COWBOY10]

More than 70 new ship models have been made for SH3. Good idea, but it would get out-of-date fast.

LOl Ok thats a fair point, ummm maybe Neal can let us download new ship pages from here, New one out, New page. :) Ok we will need to strengthen the desk for the book, but hey it be upto date. :)

Thinking may need a better idea for this

[Platapus]

More than 70 new ship models have been made for SH3. Good idea, but it would get out-of-date fast.

Ubi could offer a download version. Miss a download and you are going into battle with an out of date recognition manual.....now that's realism!

[Sailor Steve]

Ubi could offer a download version. Miss a download and you are going into battle with an out of date recognition manual.....now that's realism!
:yep:

I like it! And it would make Cowboy10's idea work.:sunny:

[Iron Budokan]

I would also like to see this implemented. :)

[Apos]

Im really looking forward for that kind of mods! Well, maybe after half year i get SHV only to install mods and play with pleasure.

[Adam106]

There's some really good and innovative ideas being discussed in this thread. It's long been my wish to have this kind of interaction and verbal feedback from the crew.
See my post from nearly 2.5 years ago in regard to SHIV :

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=121913-

many of my ideas echo the ideas at the beginning of this thread. Will the modders be up to the challenge?

[Frederf]

I swear I wrote something similar a while ago. It was "Standing Orders and Alerts" or some such. The first half of the idea was to construct custom "macros" out of simple commands to take a lot of the micro out of commanding. The second half was to have TC auto-drop to 1x on custom alerts like "we lost visual on that freighter we were end-around-ing" or "the hydrophone contact crossed the 030 bearing" so I could set such a contextual alarm and go to sleep (high TC) when doing boring maneuvers.

[Heretic]

Since the computer can't handle our spoken syntax, another way, albeit awkward would be for the computer to play "20 questions" with the player

1. Warship or Merchant ship? Merchant
2. How many funnels? one
3. Where are they located? Stern
4. Any derricks? none
5. ......

but as you can see building a dichotomous key like can get complicated and awkward.

... and what do you suppose someone spotted in the new screenshots?
http://www.pcgames.de/aid,705472/Silent-Hunter-5-Mehr-als-30-neue-Screenshots-zur-U-Boot-Simulation-von-Ubisoft/PC/Bildergalerie/

see picture 32. Look at the dialog box. :03:
*edit* I think it's a series of filters for the ship recognition manual that are accessed through the dialog interface. Which is a pretty slick way of implementing Platapus' idea.

[Matyas]

I absolutely love the idea of clear, simple, full-screen periscope view and button-activated commanding interface.

I could imagine a commanding interface similar to the one implemented in SWAT4, where holding down the right mouse button brings up a list of orders from which the player can choose from (some of the orders can be further specified in a sliding sub-menu). I think this would fit quite well into the submarine commanding scheme. I can also imagine that the available commands may vary based on the situation (e.g. in combat, submerged) and/or the location of the captain (e.g. you could not give orders to the torpedo officer if you are on the bridge or in the engine room or if you stand too far away from the closed-circuit telephone-like thing that connected the battle stations).

Actually, in the SWAT4 interface you could choose separately the recipient of orders (red team/blue team/ gold team) by tapping the SPACE key. This could also be the case in SH5 interface, but instead of red/blue team we could have XO/Navigator/etc.

[rcjonessnp175]

Great ideas, is thier a way to just make the actual interface zoomable as in make to were you use the mouse wheel to virtually bring your eye closer to the scope thus making it full screen ish?

[Mav87th]

using historical magnification values, coupled with the relatively low resolution of computer monitors has meant a sighting performance below that of real life. Modifications have made the decision to increase magnification to fictional levels desiring to replicate real world results in terms of overall performance when recognizing flags, etc.

I would disagree 100% with this.

Please read this post for clarification for my point of view, and belive me - the ships were NOT to small !!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=133207

[Frederf]

Angular size is not the only part of recreating optics. There's a thing called resolution. The idea of a large viewport is to achieve realistic/near-realistic angular sizes while approaching real world image resolution performance.

[reaper7]

Fred I'm loving your ideas, Just ordered SH5 and hope to see a better scope screen in the future. :up: Dev's please take note of this thread. :ping:

[Safe-Keeper]

I don't know how polite it is to just jump ahead without reading posts, but...http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4701/peri4copy.jpg
:up: Now this is what I'm talking about! I realize it may not be possible, but if it is, it'd be awesome.

I hate how in games, you always transition from one screen to another when looking into binoculars and periscopes and whatnot. It's a real immersion-breaker. This would be oh-so much better:yeah:.

[Sailor Steve]

Do you mean have that view and then click on it to go to a full-screen view? Because that view is actually quite small.

[Ziggy]

I liked this idea so much that it made me finally sign up on this forum to say how much I like it.

[Sailor Steve]

WELCOME ABOARD!:sunny:

[mstang67]

Just need to petition a company like logitech or saitek, a company who makes joysticks and panels for other games, to make us a periscope, tdc, and engine order telegraph. Now THAT would be somethin! (Not that I believe they would do it) :salute:

[reaper7]

What would make it ideal for me is dual screen mode where the scope could be full screen on one screen and all your controls and maps on the second screen.
They one could build a model of a scope with an LCD creen embeded and use it like the real deal, similar to the guys at viperpit that buils fully working f16 cockpits. See here http://www.viperpit.org/smf/index.php :yeah:

[Mav87th]

To keep the realism one could have an idea like Sobers with the Zielkurzvinkel finder around the scope. Then with a zoom in/out function to go to a full screen Periscope with correct Angular Angle/zoom and best possible resolution. (ie. what do you see when looking into a binocular with only one eye - a full image. Even though the eyepiece are small)

So Sobers pared with the three rings around the scope eyepiece and then a full screen image if you click or keypress the periview toggle.

Zooms should of course be x1.5 and x6.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/5627/subsimaobf1bt4.jpg


Couple that with a slidable Angriffsscheibe one have all the tools for manual targeting by hand.....

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2793/subsimattack1da3.jpg

[jimmie]

Drop the in-game ship manual or move it to a bookshelf for general reference :D If I could call for Hitman's lecture to estimate height etc by structure in detail again.

[lactanz]

Hey Guys, do you think it will be possible to mod the horrible interface of SHV?
I think there must be a solution for this, or?

Thnak to all the modders here, you are all great!
Thanks!

Martin

Sorry for my English, come from "Krautland", germany!:03:

[Able72]

I'm all about an uncluttered view through the scope. That would be great. But I'd also like a quick, one button switch between the Scope view and my tactical 'attack map'

And what ever happened to manual TDC calculations and the tools to do those?
How about an accurate AOB finder instead of a "hmmm, yeah it kinda looks like it might be this angle" dial?
How about a viewable stopwatch and some means to calculate actual ship speed instead of "Hey how fast does it look to be going to you?"

In the introductory mission I missed 3 times due to bad calculations. I haven't missed a torp shot in more than 2 years. Well, at least against slow moving (non moving?) targets.

[Able72]

To keep the realism one could have an idea like Sobers with the Zielkurzvinkel finder around the scope. Then with a zoom in/out function to go to a full screen Periscope with correct Angular Angle/zoom and best possible resolution. (ie. what do you see when looking into a binocular with only one eye - a full image. Even though the eyepiece are small)

So Sobers pared with the three rings around the scope eyepiece and then a full screen image if you click or keypress the periview toggle.

Zooms should of course be x1.5 and x6.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/5627/subsimaobf1bt4.jpg


Couple that with a slidable Angriffsscheibe one have all the tools for manual targeting by hand.....

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/2793/subsimattack1da3.jpg

This is what I WANT BACK. Straight forward, simple, and functional.

[Mav87th]

Able72

The Zielkurswinkel finder is your AOB tool. That is the one that was installed in the real VII as well. And as shown it was mounted on the attack periscope around one of the eye pieces.

http://www.uboatnet.de/Technik/Angriffsehrohr.htm

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99582&d=1255798351

And as the later PDF allso describes. The bearing indicator on the top of the scope WAS visual through the eyepiece of some of the periscope models. So IMO we should keep that.

[Frederf]

How about an accurate AOB finder instead of a "hmmm, yeah it kinda looks like it might be this angle" dial?
How about a viewable stopwatch and some means to calculate actual ship speed instead of "Hey how fast does it look to be going to you?"

How about we use methods that real German U-boat captains used during the war? Do you know what methods they used? Did you do research? Oh no you didn't because then you'd know that...

They estimated AOB by eye. The estimated speed by bow wake (predominantly).

[Chaoic16]

I gotta say I agree with you. But I gotta say what would do the sim wonders is voice commands instead of click here or click there.:up:

Hell NO, I would disagree with this if there should be a mod that would force to use voice command as standard mod. I would rather for mods to enable it as 'option' between clicking or voice command. So as deaf gamer, having voice only command would be extremely frustating and useless for me, I am not able to speak much. I would rather to have clicky mode instead.

:down:


Chaoic out...

[Elphaba]

bump

Is this 'project' still alive? Or have the 'crappy' SH3/4 2D toolbars negated it?

:(

Elphaba

[Ablemaster]

Go for it Fred ive been reading through this thread and your ideas are both excellent, realistic and true, about time a view like this is implemented, i believe this would be a leap in the right direction. Very immersive and of course historically accurate, your ideas are spot on mate. Sure many would favour your approach and pull us away from the small view arcade like portal we have seen many times in the past. Anyways nuff said. Look forward to your updates in the future mate, thanks.

[Frederf]

Originally this was not really a project, it was a general SH5 forum thread that was moved into the SH5 Mod forum as its first topic since it was the most "mod-like" at that time. That being said, the release of SH4-like UI mods has done anything but satisfy me. It's a good stopgap measure but it would pain me if that "comfort zone" was as far as UI ideas ever progress. I will try to integrate the ideas shown here into a larger mod package.

[Safe-Keeper]

What, there's something wrong with the current system:06:?http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r292/safe-keeper/Growl.jpg?t=1268442730
...other than that it's nearly impossible to use as it obscures half the periscope view, especially when you throw high waves into the mix:nope:?

[Frederf]

Clicking the word ship name in the XO dialog "freighter" for unidentified or Axillary Cruiser Penguin if you checked the tick box toggles the recognition panels on and off.

[Chromius]

If you look at the work on the separate TDC standalone mod, it appears there may be a completely separate realistic TDC panel in the works which would be perfect with that scope with the triple rings, for people that must manually use the TDC also. You would have to leave scope to use TDC and recognition then go back. If those could be made to work together that would be the way to go for me. Maybe even have the recognition manual a pop up on the TDC panel screen, so the scop is just scope, with zoomed out and rings and fullscreen as was said.

[Frederf]

Yeah, that's a good idea. Make the TDC on the wall in the conning tower 3D model clickable and bring up a 2D TDC interface. I'm not sure how the real process went , you'd think they'd have a TDC operator crew member that the captain gave verbal inputs to. Seems strange to have 40 crew on the boat and the captain has to do it all like Vishnu.

The rings are a circular calculator of sorts. I'd have to check with someone like Hitman who knows all this obscure stuff back to front.

[nycoroner05]

I hope this becomes a reality. Nice job of engineering.

[MikiBzh]

Hi,

For voice command I've used SH3Speech with some great success.
Main advantage of this one is the ability to point the mouse somewhere on the screen.
All TDC would be available with command.
I've just plan to make one profil for the "new" TDC from SH3, that TheDarkWraith bring us, but with french voice..
(http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=254741)

[Tomi_099]

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4701/peri4copy.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/peri4copy.jpg/)
--------------------------


WOW !! LOOKS GREAT !! LIKE IT !! :yeah:

[GT182]

This would be an excellent mod. Anything happening with it yet?

You guys amaze me. And I'm surprized you haven't all gotten together and made your own U-boat sim that works as it should, not something that's always broken right out of the box like we're used to.