Subsim Video: New Manual TDC Video in HD (2/13/10)

[Frnocom]

Sorry if already posted. I didn't see anything on it. Posted just over 3 hours ago.

There is hope for your manual targeting Kaluens.

LINK HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3sOA-UWk74&hd=1)

As Neal mentions in the description....it's just a preview version of the game (most of us knew that already).

Can't wait 'til March!

[Onkel Neal]

You're welcome.

The TDC works about the same as before, except the interface is much less "authentic" looking than before. :cry:

[Letum]

I see no TDC. :shifty:

[Frnocom]

Didn't the "Old Man" or captain sit at the attack periscope and call out the variables to the XO or whoever was manning the TDC?

If I am right, then it would be even more "realistic" or "authentic" or whateveryouwannacallit, for the captain (the player) to to just call out the variables such as the way it was done in the video while somebody else input the values into the TDC....yes/no? That would make this even more realistic since it seems like it is supposed to be more of a 1st person experience this time around. The captain only has two hands.

Neal, is it possible in the game to step away from the periscope and click on the TDC and set values manually?

[THE_MASK]

Ok , so you are doing the captains job which is good . Can you take over the XOs job and do the mtdc yourself ? Can you use the TDC in the conning tower ?
It looks a whole lot more fun to play then sh3/4 .

[onelifecrisis]

Aha, finally. Thanks for putting this one up Neal. :up:
Nice to see the stadimeter at work. :)
It's a shame (and slightly odd) that they didn't make the stadimeter rotatable so that it could be used to get angle on the bow. :(
I also notice there is an "estimate speed from range observations" option. Interesting.

Off-topic, I've noticed in several of these videos that the underwater view is waaaaay too bright. That's something I might have to mod. :hmmm:

[Lanzfeld]

Thanks for the video Neal!

Seems to me you really messed up the AOB but you still hit the target? Ahhhh..you fired a big spread thats why.

Also...after you put in the AOB the range changed....very strange.

I DO NOT care for all that junk blocking the view of the scope.

[Weather-guesser]

Outstanding to see that...I noticed a grainier look to the outside environment on this video. SASSO at work? I'm not a big fan of it myself.

I would agree that this might be considered more realistic to be calling out the variables instead of having the captain enter them himself, but as mentioned I wonder if you can manually enter them to TDC?

All in all, if this "Sim" will be as modable as they say, then these type of things may be changed....I'm looking forward to this if it's more finished than SH4 :up:

Edit: Really cool exlosions in this version. Nice look at the attack periscope that time...thanks

[razark]

I DON NOT care for all that junk blocking the view of the scope.

It seems to me they could have put the dialog boxes off to the left, where the map was, instead of blocking the scope view.

I'm not familiar with u-boat range finding. Did they use this sort of stadimeter, or was there another method?

[onelifecrisis]

I'm not familiar with u-boat range finding. Did they use this sort of stadimeter, or was there another method?

Yes, they used it. They could also turn it on it's side to get the AOB (it was called a Rotatable Split-Prism Stadimeter) but that feature doesn't seem to be in the game.

[brandtryan]

Thanks Neal--

I like the fact that you're walking around a lot--and not staring at a freaking map the whole time, and just hitting icons to get contact reports. Just walking through the sub, and hydrophone guy calls out contact, you run up to the periscope--nice! Stuff to do, work to be done!! Get moving!

The TDC. This video might be a hint to the modders--with the hyperlinks, etc.--to change values of TDC, with options to use periscope, or manually put in values, etc.--almost looks like the code with a little, extremely simple GUI (essential just a form/box) to input values. XML? I may be WAY off here, as I"m not a programmer/developer--but what if the awesome modders in this community can create their own GUI (i.e., graphical TDC, knobs, etc.) and plug in the XML, or whatever is behind it, into it? Not to mention the possibility of hooking up a mic and calling out the numbers for real. I know that technology has been out awhile--used to use it for flight sims "go spread" "attack ground targets" "tighten formation", etc.

Maybe I"m reaching here--but who knows!

Anyway, yes, they've included a MANUAL TDC--enough said. If they had another year to develop, maybe they would have created all the knobs, realistically representing the device, if it's not in there already, in some other part of the sub. Or maybe as someone above said, the idea is that the Cap doesn't run the TDC himself, and passed that off to the XO. Either way, it's in there, and it looks like the coding language will be modder friendly, as far as changing the GUI for the device, and who knows what else.

I was going to buy it no matter what--people have to realize--especially people that frequent this site, that niche sims like this are becoming increasingly rare--nearly extinct. Yeah, I'd be sore if I didn't have an internet connection, but we have to support the people that take the risks to make these titles. xyz software company is evil, bad, etc.--well, guess what? Without them, we'd be stuck with a whole lot of nothing. IMHO, same goes for flight sims, and Eagle Dynamics, et al. Oops, ranting--can't wait to get my paws on this one.

I've re-installed SHIV, and put on OM. I'm trying to remember how the heck to attack merchant shipping using the periscope, with no ability to ping for range. How do you know their course when they are little tiny dots out there? Even if you wait 10 minutes, and get a new bearing, you still don't have range, and so cannot get thier course! Help!!

Got spoiled in the US boats, using Werner Sobe's sonar only attack method.

[Frnocom]

Seems to me you really messed up the AOB but you still hit the target? Ahhhh..you fired a big spread thats why.


I was going to say the same thing....messed up AOB?

[IanC]

Well at least there's manual TDC! :up: I was starting to get worried there..

[Galanti]

I was going to say the same thing....messed up AOB?

Nah, old One-Eye put the right numbers in accidentally.

Setting aside my epic loathing for the GUI in general for the moment, I can see the merit in this approach, as far as modelling the torpedo firing chain of command goes. But the hyperlinks need to go...

BTW, congratulations to my Yank cousins for their first Olympic gold medal!

[oscar19681]

I see no TDC. :shifty:

i see no problem :DL

[oscar19681]

You're welcome.

The TDC works about the same as before, except the interface is much less "authentic" looking than before. :cry:

Thanks again for that daddy yo!:DL

[Nordmann]

I can't really say I'm overly enthusiastic about the GUI, it seems far too minimalistic. Where the hell are the panels, dials, lights, switches etc etc we had in SH3, and to an extent SH4? They're all gone! Modders please step forward, you always do a much better job than the so called "professionals", this minimalist rubbish has to go.

[brandtryan]

FYI: from Blair's "Hitler's U-Boat War" pp. 43

"In submerged daylight attacks the captain, who had sole access to the attack periscope, conducted the approach, assisted by the first watch officer at a plotting board, then aimed and fired the torpedoes. The night surface attack, the captain conducted the approach at the plotting board in the control room, but he did not fire the torpedoes. That task was delegated to the first watch officer on the bridge, using the high-power Zeiss binoculars mounted on a gyro-scope compass repeater. It was a more efficient system, but not many captains willingly delegated the torpedo firing to the first watch officers. No other navy adopted this technique."

[Méo]

Thanks Neal,

The TDC works about the same as before, except the interface is much less "authentic" looking than before. :cry:

However, the more I see, the more I realize we will need a colossal effort by the modding community, will we be as lucky as we were during the GWX times..:hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:

[FIREWALL]

Thx Neal :salute:

That was what I was the most concerned about of the whole sim.

I've never played or bought a RPG. And I won't start now.

I buy Simulators or as close as they can get.

Imo this doesn't cut it as a Sim.

I will buy it. But at the Ebay bargain bin someday to add it to my Sub game collection.

I'm happy with SHIII\GWX3 :DL

[Nordmann]

Thanks Neal,



However, the more I see, the more I realize we will need a colossal effort by the modding community, will we be as lucky as we were during the GWX times..:hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:

It's always the same. The developers do a quick and sloppy job, a lick of paint here, some insulation tape there, and then leave it to the community to make something decent out of it. A damned shame, given the resources they have access to, but it all comes down to time and money.

[mookiemookie]

I don't mind this. The captain was not turning the TDC dials himself, but rather his subordinates. It looks like it works pretty close to how it was really done. Good work!

[Weather-guesser]

a lick of paint here, some insulation tape there


I think you are coating that on with a wide brush...I'm sure the devs do a little more than that ;)

[GoldenRivet]

I don't mind this. The captain was not turning the TDC dials himself, but rather his subordinates. It looks like it works pretty close to how it was really done. Good work!

agree 100%

captain calls out his observations and the subordinates take care of the dial turning.

thats how it worked, and i can see thats what they were going for in SHV

[Turbografx]

I don't mind this. The captain was not turning the TDC dials himself, but rather his subordinates. It looks like it works pretty close to how it was really done. Good work!

agree 100%

captain calls out his observations and the subordinates take care of the dial turning.

thats how it worked, and i can see thats what they were going for in SHV


It was a more efficient system, but not many captains willingly delegated the torpedo firing to the first watch officers.

From above.

[JScones]

Should I be able to browse through the "recognition manual" while still looking through the periscope? :hmmm:

Still, better than what I expected. I don't mind the hyperlink approach simply because I can't think of any other way to give the IWO the correct settings (yelling at the monitor doesn't seem to work).

[Weather-guesser]

yelling at the monitor doesn't seem to work


:O::haha::har:

[Onkel Neal]

It seems to me they could have put the dialog boxes off to the left, where the map was, instead of blocking the scope view.


Yes, I feel the same way. There's plenty of blank space to the left, why not move Mini-me over there with this TDC and ID stuff. And I liked the old ID manuals much better, when they offered several angles.





Seems to me you really messed up the AOB but you still hit the target? Ahhhh..you fired a big spread thats why.

Also...after you put in the AOB the range changed....very strange.


I was going to say the same thing....messed up AOB?

I'm still experimenting with how the AOB works. In this case, I set it to what I thought should be the path of the target. So, where I stuck the little tick mark, that's where I see the vessel in relation to me viewing from 180. Is the vessel in the center of the circle my sub or the target? I may have done it wrong, I don't know. :cool:

I don't mind this. The captain was not turning the TDC dials himself, but rather his subordinates. It looks like it works pretty close to how it was really done. Good work!

Yeah, there are some players who don't want to touch the TDC and there are some who do. I'm the latter, but this game seems more geared to the former.

[LukeFF]

If I am right, then it would be even more "realistic" or "authentic" or whateveryouwannacallit, for the captain (the player) to to just call out the variables such as the way it was done in the video while somebody else input the values into the TDC....yes/no? That would make this even more realistic since it seems like it is supposed to be more of a 1st person experience this time around. The captain only has two hands.

Very good explanation!

[malkuth74]

What are those bars over the ships when Neals cursor went over them. I can't wait for this game, but please tell me that is not a life bar or something.

[Onkel Neal]

Yes, damage and flooding bars but the devs tell me there will be an option to hide them in the game.

[GermanGS]

Thanks for the video Neal.

I Like the new approach to TDC, calling it out, rather then imputing it yourself, seems and feels more realistic, my personal opinion though.

Whats wrong with the sounds? its all bubbly like, and its English "fairing tube one" then German "los":o

Probably its just because its a preview version.

Anyway thanks Neal. I'm starting to like the game more and more.

[LukeFF]

Some of the replies here in this thread just make me chuckle. All along people have been clamoring for a sub sim that shows the game from the captain's perspective. The devs do just that, including a representation of the captain handing off firing data to the TDC officer. And now some are claiming this is a sloppy, unprofessional job done by the devs? :nope:

Some of you really need to figure out what you want the game to be: either a simulator where you run around and twirl all the buttons, or a simulation of how a commander interacted with his subordinates. For me, the choice is the latter, and it's going to be the route I take in any mod work I undertake for this game.

[Snake Man]

The TDC works about the same as before, except the interface is much less "authentic" looking than before. :cry:
So in a general opinion; is SH5 turning out to be more arcade game than a simulator?

[Rip]

Some of the replies here in this thread just make me chuckle. All along people have been clamoring for a sub sim that shows the game from the captain's perspective. The devs do just that, including a representation of the captain handing off firing data to the TDC officer. And now some are claiming this is a sloppy, unprofessional job done by the devs? :nope:

Some of you really need to figure out what you want the game to be: either a simulator where you run around and twirl all the buttons, or a simulation of how a commander interacted with his subordinates. For me, the choice is the latter, and it's going to be the route I take in any mod work I undertake for this game.

+1 I am excited and the only thorn in my saddle is the OSP, but I will speak to that with my wallet on EVERY other Ubi title. This one will just have to do with that big wart on its nose because other than that it is looking pretty good to me.

[makman94]

this TDC is just 'funny' . it shows the laziness of devs and nothing more

[Turbografx]

Yes, damage and flooding bars but the devs tell me there will be an option to hide them in the game.


Neal,

Do you know anything about how damage works yet? What are your observations?

Is it still X number of torpedoes to sink Y ship?

[Adriatico]

In my long gaming career I've seen many nonsenses and "immersion killers"... but this dialog box and funny picture within the preiscope view is definitely in a top 10... if not in a top 5.

Do they really think that non-sim market would like it - so it would increase the sales ?
:dead:

[Sgtmonkeynads]

I can't find a reference to any captain looking through the scope, jumping up going to the TDC panel a few feet away. Then returning to scope, takeing another reading, jumping up going to said panel, etc....
so, I think this is alright for now.

I don't understand why some people are complaining about the stuff blocking their veiw, if your playing the way I do your use to this...Note the blocked view of scope, and Slideout panels all over the place....
http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/f9a4f85a2b3d.jpg

Granted, this is what I would like to see, but it is more realistic the way they have it now, with the simulated shouting of orders.
Inshort, to each his own I guess.

[PL_Andrev]

Thanks Neal for this manual hi-res movie!
I waited for it a long long time...
:yeah:

[capthelm]

Thx Neal :salute:

That was what I was the most concerned about of the whole sim.

I've never played or bought a RPG. And I won't start now.

I buy Simulators or as close as they can get.

Imo this doesn't cut it as a Sim.

I will buy it. But at the Ebay bargain bin someday to add it to my Sub game collection.

I'm happy with SHIII\GWX3 :DL


bye then no more posts from you then on sh5

[THE_MASK]

bye then no more posts from you then on sh5
No No No , he has an opinion on SH5 , that doesnt mean he has to go away does it . Its a forum where people talk .

[capthelm]

i liked the lighting effects from the ships searchlights.:yeah:

[capthelm]

You're welcome.

The TDC works about the same as before, except the interface is much less "authentic" looking than before. :cry:

put a lot of worrying to rest least its in there TDC

[Florent]

Excellent video, as many i like the game more and more, it's different like SH 3 was different from silent Service and the first 2 Silent hunter.
The team has done many historical events as was asked by the players and much more and the players are so different, i know i will like it:up:

[Hitman]

The TDC works about the same as before, except the interface is much less "authentic" looking than before. :cry:

But in turn the 3D TDC in the conning tower looks more authentic than ever :up: (Though unfinished, I see a vernier from the compass rose in the bearing to target dial!)

In any case, the manual targetting seems as complicated and unflexible as always. Jesus don't they learn the lessons from SH3/4? :damn:

The manual targeting interface is a simple revamp of the crappy notepad systema that was in SH3 already, and that causes a lot of trouble and has many limitations. For example, you are not able to enter directly mast heigth in the stadimeter, and you have to constantly switch things in the dialog box to provide target variables. Why not simply put at reach a set of dials to send them to the TDC, like in many of the interface mods that have been done for SH3/4?

The more I look at it, the more I see the same features that were there already in SH4. I bet that a talented modder could probably implement most of the new changes in SH4 without touching a line of code :shifty:

And it certainlt send sshivers down my spine to see the degree of unfinishment in the game, given that Neal's copy was given to him just one month before release :o

I

[Pisces]

"TDC" from now on will be redifined as meaning "Tell Dumb Crew". :nope:

I'm feeling the onset of DDD. (dial-deprived-depression)

[makman94]

The 'problems' don't stop here Hitman ! this tdc is worst than ever...
the speed,a critical value for manual targeting , is showing at video that can be adjusted every 2 kts (2,4,6,8....etc) .this is just 'killing' the manual targeting....what if i have measure a speed ,for example, 3.5 kts ? the longer the distance ...the more critical is the setted value at speed
also the bearing....(1,2,3,4....etc)....no demicals
you ,may, say...'details' but these 'details' are making the difference
the good thing is that there is a circular dial (...aob) ,at last !, so it may be possible the sh5's engine to 'accept' circular dials

[The Enigma]

Besides the manual targeting issues mentioned above,
I find the voice sounding horrible.

Like I've posted in this thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1267400#post1267400): who is talking?
The captain or the sonar guy?

If it's the captain again, then his voice is changed dramatically.
The way how he pronounces the words isn't adding to the atmosphere. :cry:

[FinnN]

Looks great to me! From the perspective of the captain this is more realistic, but it is nice to twiddle the dials and so forth.

Personally I'd like to see a representation of the TDC with dials in the empty screen area and when you call out the settings you see the dials move. If you wish you could not issue commands and go straight to the dials.

It's been mentioned that the GUI is moddable using python and as both methods end up returning the same data I see no reason why this couldn't be modded in reasonably simply...provided the api is comprehensive. I guess we'll see in a few weeks...

Have fun
Finn

[Captain von Keldunk]

I think that when Neal turned TDC on it went to XO assisted mode
" XO: Following your target sir" XO somehow knew AOP and followed it.( AOP moved from 13 to 15, then Neal changed it to 129 :D), bearing was from periscope. Then if you input Ship ID, range (two times) then XO would estimate speed, and maybe then follow target like US positionkeeper:hmmm: " XO: Following your target sir"
Initial range was 500, was it also correct range or not:hmmm: I did not see it change:hmmm:.

[Adriatico]

Hey Neal, did you examine what is the average size of the savegame file ?

It would be interesting to approx. estimate: how many bytes must be sent to server - when you press save game... ?

For many players with slower and unreliable connections it would be important.

[Schultz]

Thanks Neal , great video.That is a health bar hehe:haha:

[Alex]

Aha, finally. Thanks for putting this one up Neal. :up:
Nice to see the stadimeter at work. :)
It's a shame (and slightly odd) that they didn't make the stadimeter rotatable so that it could be used to get angle on the bow. :(
I also notice there is an "estimate speed from range observations" option. Interesting.

Off-topic, I've noticed in several of these videos that the underwater view is waaaaay too bright. That's something I might have to mod. :hmmm:

+1 ! :yeah:

:|\\

Thanks Neal ! :D

[Nisgeis]

Is it still X number of torpedoes to sink Y ship?

As there is a 'health' bar and a 'flooding' bar, I think it would be safe to assume that X torpedoes cause Y damage and Z flooding rate, just like in SH4, where both massive damage can kill a ship, or if it's flodding rate overcomes the ship.

the speed,a critical value for manual targeting , is showing at video that can be adjusted every 2 kts (2,4,6,8....etc) .

Yes, I noticed that too. I'm slightly concerned. In SH4, you could put in fractions of speed, but with a text selection like that you can't.

Apart from those two things though, I think the TDC matches with what SH5 was announced as - a Captain Simulator. The fire effects looks much better. I wonder if the convoys zig zag.

[java`s revenge]

Thanks Neal for this great video.

Nobody has wriiten about the great explosions and flames thereafter.
I also like the search beams from the merchants.

The game / sim isn`t perfect and maybe this was made with
an elder version.

But the angle isn`t right to shoot a torpedo at that moment. Normally it will bounce.

[piri_reis]

A salvo was fired, but no spread angle (degrees?) was set.
I guess the all knowing XO had that covered to.. Well why not use the space on the left to display the TDC dials, and either let us see what the XO sets or let me reach over and do it myself.
All this TDC stuff was pretty lame in stock versions, transformed into authentic targetting with great mods; I hope SH5 will give us all the capability to recreate those..

[NoLine]

I'm still experimenting with how the AOB works. In this case, I set it to what I thought should be the path of the target. So, where I stuck the little tick mark, that's where I see the vessel in relation to me viewing from 180. Is the vessel in the center of the circle my sub or the target? I may have done it wrong, I don't know. :cool:

AOB is at what bearing your target ship sees you Neal, so the vessel in the center of the circle is your target not your ship.
Hard to believe you didnt know that. :S

cheers
Noline

[paxhispanica]

More and more work left to the modders....:damn:

In the near future, the developers will sell us the game with a "faboulous tag" on the cover saying: do it all for yourself.... (raising the retail price, of course)

Regarding to the pseudo manual TDC, will we be able to see the final gyro angle on the TDC??

I guess that the parameters that we can enter can be modified (instead of steps of 2 knots on speed, we may change to 1 knots on speed)

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Question to modders : Do you think you will beable to mod the dialog box used to give orders?
I know it's too early to tell, but what is your opinion. I ask because the way it is set up now, ( if you guys give us the rest of the equipement that is missing, along with the years of war) I don't see a way of implementing Fat and Lut torpedos' special settings.

What I'm trying to ask is if you add the late war torps' how are we going to set their gyros, Sh4 was is a pain haveing to go to the TDC map all the time, and forget about trying to set a salvo of torps and get them in the water in time to hit anything. Maybe I'm just slow at it or something?

[V.C. Sniper]

looks very authentic and nice for the approach the devs are going after (uboat captain simulation)!

don't like the way the speed part is handled though

now i want to see a sim where you can jump into the shoes of anybody in the submarine and operate authentically simulated equipments that they are qualified to operate.:o:know::arrgh!:

[cherbert]

Yes, I feel the same way. There's plenty of blank space to the left, why not move Mini-me over there with this TDC and ID stuff. And I liked the old ID manuals much better, when they offered several angles.

You have to remember that you are playing at a high resolution in widescreen. If you wack the resolution down to 1024x768 you find you probably have very little space to the left.

[vergol]

You have to remember that you are playing at a high resolution in widescreen. If you wack the resolution down to 1024x768 you find you probably have very little space to the left.

Or a lot of space at the top and bottom.

[cherbert]

Neil can you confirm if you still get the effect of the boat moving when down below? I see absolutely no movement in your videos although in all of them you are at Periscope Depth.

Can you confirm if when diving etc.. on the surface.. that you do still feel the boat moving when below deck.

I am getting concerned that because of the introduction of 3rd person mode they have dropped this effect.

Perhaps I'm just used to the various mods in SH3 where this effect is very much exaggerated from stock SH3.

[McBeck]

It's always the same. The developers do a quick and sloppy job, a lick of paint here, some insulation tape there, and then leave it to the community to make something decent out of it. A damned shame, given the resources they have access to, but it all comes down to time and money.
The developers have done the best job possible with the resources they had.
These guys have been working nights and weekends...

[ReFaN]

Looks awesome, love it.

[KING111]

Well it looks to me like PT Boats arcade all the way
What’s the point of them health pars over the ships?
The periscope makes me think you are playing on a page of
Microsoft word it’s a game aimed at everyman it’s not
Been made with any thought for the members of the
Subsim forums and like all the other Silent hunter games
They will leave it up to the mod teams here to put it right
Like all companies they have gone the easy way to try and
Make as much money as they can with as little effort
As they can but with DRM I think they have
Shot them self’s in the foot like a lot of member I will
Wait until they have taken DRM off and the mod’s here
Have made the game what it should have been before
I will buy it
And I bet by the autumn there will be the 1943 to 1945
Campaign add-on’s out
With 2 more subs it’s probably already made :rock::rock::rock:

[java`s revenge]

Well it looks to me like PT Boats arcade all the way
What’s the point of them health pars over the ships?
The periscope makes me think you are playing on a page of
Microsoft word it’s a game aimed at everyman it’s not
Been made with any thought for the members of the
Subsim forums and like all the other Silent hunter games
They will leave it up to the mod teams here to put it right
Like all companies they have gone the easy way to try and
Make as much money as they can with as little effort
As they can but with DRM I think they have
Shot them self’s in the foot like a lot of member I will
Wait until they have taken DRM off and the mod’s here
Have made the game what it should have been before
I will buy it
And I bet by the autumn there will be the 1943 to 1945
Campaign add-on’s out
With 2 more subs it’s probably already made :rock::rock::rock:


Do you have a loop to read this?

[Lanzfeld]

If you can only set speed to 2,4,6,8,10 etc.. then you can forget ever hitting ANYTHING beyond 1500 meters.:88)

Unless....the Devs made the targets only go 2,4,6,8,10 knots etc...

Wouldnt suprise me.:nope:

...and Neal...you HAVE to know what AOB is. For your video you set it at about 7:30 but you needed to set it at about 10:30 from the looks of it. I am still trying to figure out HOW you hit that ship???:doh:

[GoldenRivet]

well in SH3 and 4 your crew interaction was limited in the way that they would really only be there to "repeat" your commands.

also in SH3 and 4 you did all the work for firing solutions pretty much making it a one man show... again, the crew served NO purpose here in SH3/4

here with SHV - you must involve them in your activities.

much more realistic i think

[martes86]

Well, I must say I like the way you have to feed data to the XO. Too bad he doesn't seem present in the tower manning the TDC (maybe he is in the final version). But for me, it's much more realistic than in SH3 or SH4. As far as I know, the Captain would NEVER handle the TDC himself, he'd just callout the data for input. Sure, it'd be an added value to be able to handle the TDC yourself (it's an object onboard, you should be able to interact with it just like you interact with hatches), but, unless you can act as someone else than the Captain, I don't see any realistic use for manning the TDC yourself.

I can't speak for the details on the data feeding though, I can't say if the stadimeter is better or worse, I'll leave that to those that have much more knowledge than I do. But if we want realism in the sim mechanics, this is definitely the way to get it. :yep:

Cheers :rock:

[java`s revenge]

If you can only set speed to 2,4,6,8,10 etc.. then you can forget ever hitting ANYTHING beyond 1500 meters.:88)

Unless....the Devs made the targets only go 2,4,6,8,10 knots etc...

Wouldnt suprise me.:nope:

...and Neal...you HAVE to know what AOB is. For your video you set it at about 7:30 but you needed to set it at about 10:30 from the looks of it. I am still trying to figure out HOW you hit that ship???:doh:

You are absolutely right, normally spoken these were all misses.
But if the aob was correctly setted why didn`t the torpedoes bounced off..:timeout:

[Boris]

Is there seriously no manual TDC with the knobs and all??? In the end I never used the notepad system in SH3 anyway, which this system seems to be based on. In SH3 I put all my settings into the TDC directly, on the torpedo map screen.
What happens when you click on the TDC in the tower?

[java`s revenge]

That`s a question we`ll have to await. :doh:

[onelifecrisis]

But if the aob was correctly setted why didn`t the torpedoes bounced off..:timeout:

There's a realism option for that in SH3. Stands to reason they'd have a similar setting in SH5.

[AVGWarhawk]

Above and beyond the TDC the water, sky look like the dark cold Atlantic. Also, the explosions/smoke look great. Thanks for posting!

[java`s revenge]

Indeed for dud torpedoes but for bouncing torpedoes....:hmmm:

[Semtex]

that health bar rox :|
explosion and smoke are very nice.

[Lanzfeld]

Yeah! Just so long as we have GREAT explosions then screw the rest!:yeah::salute::yeah::up::rock:

[Semtex]

:har:

[brandtryan]

this TDC is just 'funny' . it shows the laziness of devs and nothing more

It's clear you have no idea how the software development lifecycle works. I can guarantee you that the TDC model has nothing to do with laziness. As if program managers/leads would be like "Oh--looks like the developers missed the mark on the TDC because they're so lazy. Oh well, darn it! Let's go gold!"

[kapitan_zur_see]

Well, I pretty much like the new direction taken, I mean the captain feeding the data. The recognition manual is a bit crappy, but that can be modded I guess fairly easily
Main concern is, however, the over simplistic approach to manual TDC IMO. WHat about spread angle?? Gyro offset!?? :06: Biggest concern being also the speed setting with incremental step of 2!!! May put realsim at risk... Do ships only runs at speed like 2,4,8,10 or something?!? :dead:
Also, using the map, do we have access to the usual tools we had to help us find AOB and etc.???

Game looks good for sure anyway, however that robotic voice acting is even worse than it was in previous SH and greatly kills the immersion factor as for a living crew simulation! they really need to focus on that a bit sometimes!!! Will have to mod that somehow (time to practice back my Deutsch sprache! lol and of course assembling a team of people that can record themselves too)

All in all, lots of modding to do (I won't complain lol). Let's hope though it's as really modders friendly as they told us...

[Onkel Neal]

AOB is at what bearing your target ship sees you Neal, so the vessel in the center of the circle is your target not your ship.
Hard to believe you didnt know that. :S

cheers
Noline

It is, isn't it? :03:

[Onkel Neal]

Thanks Neal for this great video.

Nobody has wriiten about the great explosions and flames thereafter.
I also like the search beams from the merchants.

The game / sim isn`t perfect and maybe this was made with
an elder version.

But the angle isn`t right to shoot a torpedo at that moment. Normally it will bounce.

Thanks! Re: bounce, I had the Dud Torpedoes option off.

A salvo was fired, but no spread angle (degrees?) was set.
I guess the all knowing XO had that covered to.. Well why not use the space on the left to display the TDC dials, and either let us see what the XO sets or let me reach over and do it myself.


Yeah, about space on the left being used for an "authentic TDC", I feel the same way, that would be neat.


Some of you really need to figure out what you want the game to be: either a simulator where you run around and twirl all the buttons, or a simulation of how a commander interacted with his subordinates.

I prefer the option to do both :) But since I can do this in SH3 and SH4, I guess trying something new that other people prefer won't kill me.

I'm a student of the Capt. Kirk school of interaction; I want to do it all, wherever the action is, as a player, I want to do it; observing through the scope, updating the map with contacts based on my observations, setting up the TDC, manning the machine guns, and if I have time, supervising engine repairs, torpedo reloads, and damage control. If it were up to me, the game would have soup recipe mini-games and a sub-routine for cleaning the head. :D But I hear what you are saying, Luke, GR, MM, all. Some people don't want to do this. In Das Boot the captain didn't do anything but look and call out readings.


I can't find a reference to any captain looking through the scope, jumping up going to the TDC panel a few feet away. Then returning to scope, takeing another reading, jumping up going to said panel, etc....
so, I think this is alright for now.

I don't understand why some people are complaining about the stuff blocking their veiw, if your playing the way I do your use to this...Note the blocked view of scope, and Slideout panels all over the place....
http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/f9a4f85a2b3d.jpg:up:

Granted, this is what I would like to see, too, but it is more realistic the way they have it now, with the simulated shouting of orders.
Inshort, to each his own I guess.

That's what I like too, big time. :yep: But I have a hunch the goal of SH5 was to make the interface less threatening to non-hardcore subsim players. To be honest, that pic with all those dials and stuff--unless you are a serious subsim junkie, and there aren't as many as you might think, that looks like something "hard".

Neil can you confirm if you still get the effect of the boat moving when down below? I see absolutely no movement in your videos although in all of them you are at Periscope Depth.

Can you confirm if when diving etc.. on the surface.. that you do still feel the boat moving when below deck.

I am getting concerned that because of the introduction of 3rd person mode they have dropped this effect.

Perhaps I'm just used to the various mods in SH3 where this effect is very much exaggerated from stock SH3.

I'll have to find Neil and ask him. :O:


...and Neal...you HAVE to know what AOB is. For your video you set it at about 7:30 but you needed to set it at about 10:30 from the looks of it. I am still trying to figure out HOW you hit that ship???:doh:

Haha, I know, I know. I didn't set it, my First Officer did. Damn Nazi.

[slowworm]

this TDC is just 'funny' . it shows the laziness of devs and nothing more

Agreed.

In the conning tower there is a TDC repeater that shows the setting. In real life you could take your eye from the periscope and confirm the settings on the repeater.

The repeater belongs in the periscope view since in game space taking you eye off the scope and wandering in 3d world to view the in game repeater (assuming it actually works as a repeater) is jarring. This is a human factors compromise.

The second issue is that all that clicking to drive the TDC just sucks.

Clicking the dials as placed in the OLC gui in SH3 addresses the input issue really well. Input is simple and correct entry feedback is immediate. Again, having a TDC on the periscope used to enter the numbers is a human factors compromise.

Of course, if the game actually had voice input and all I had to do was call out instructions without clicking anything first and had a read only TDC repeater in the periscope view that would work too. This would actually make it a sim seen from the captains perspective.

So far I have seen nothing that would pull me away from SH3/GWX/OLC, DRM issues aside.

Games live and die by there control mechanisms. The manual TDC issue has far more to do with control input/playability than realism in my book. The solution in SH5 is just poorly thought out.

[makman94]

It's clear you have no idea how the software development lifecycle works. I can guarantee you that the TDC model has nothing to do with laziness. As if program managers/leads would be like "Oh--looks like the developers missed the mark on the TDC because they're so lazy. Oh well, darn it! Let's go gold!"

it is ,also, clear that you have no idea what the tdc is exactly and how it works

[ReFaN]

Looking forwardto this, Informative video nonetheless, looking forward too more.

Rock on Kneel!

[Onkel Neal]

So far I have seen nothing that would pull me away from SH3/GWX/OLC, DRM issues aside.


Well, the ability to go through the whole boat is definitely a game changer, even though it adds little pure gameplay, it really adds immersion. Besides, how often does a new submarine game come out? Do you really plan to skip this expereince? :)

[Sanuck]

Morning Neal
Is that your next video
from turret to inside, map , all the rooms etc oogh i hope so
keep up the good work

Thankyou

[java`s revenge]

Neal,
Did you have seen the "Tomi`s" mod?

It`s nice to have to possibility to walk through te uboat. But
when i look at the video`s i don`t have a feeling
that i am onboard. I have putted some youtube movies on the sh3 forum
today. Maybe you get an idea what i mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pSG4zlLaTE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZGg8iYBzNo&feature=related

[mookiemookie]

it really adds immersion.

Well whoopity doo! :O:

[onelifecrisis]

Indeed for dud torpedoes but for bouncing torpedoes....:hmmm:

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. In SH3 dud torpedoes meant bouncing torpedoes, that's what the setting actually controlled. There were no real duds, that setting just controlled whether they bounced off the hull or not.

[java`s revenge]

Okay, then i had always another thought about that.
Thanks.

[Weather-guesser]

this TDC is just 'funny' . it shows the laziness of devs and nothing more


You've gotta be kiddin' me! :nope:

[rik007]

I noticed that the searchlights switches on at torpedo impact. I do not hope that this will spoil possibilities to make succesfull nightly surface attacks as it did in SH-3. At the Community Q&A it was stated that surface attacks are very well possible so I wonder if that's the case.

[makman94]

You've gotta be kiddin' me! :nope:

why the 'angry' face Weather-guesser ? opinions are opinions ...maybe this tdc is ok for you but this can't block me to say my opinion right ?of course you can keep yours but what good do you see there? i am ,only, criticising what i see and what i see is not good at all ! it seems very 'fast' made giving me the impression that was made only for its existance (you know...for noone can say that tdc is 'out')
exept if there is a tdc's 'full' page that Neal haven't discover yet...

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Kind of makes me wish the player was voice acted.

[brandtryan]

it is ,also, clear that you have no idea what the tdc is exactly and how it works

Why do you say that? It's a targeting data computer that takes inputs (bearing, range, speed, AOB) and provides a solution for torpedoing the target.

:know:

Anyway, --just frustrated by negative comments all the time--and I know how software development works, as I work in that arena.

[Platapus]

Thank you for posting this video Neal,

The manual targeting is a very important capability for me. In my opinion, everything else is secondary.

This video showed me that there will be manual targeting in SH5 and that is a good thing. It will probably be the video that pushes me ever so slightly to the side of buying this game.

The method that SH5 will be using is intriguing. Honestly I am torn on this.

One one hand I liked being able to, as the player, set the TDC dials myself.

But on the other hand, I do feel it is more realistic that as the Kaluen, I take observations and my crew accurately plots my observations including faithfully plotting my errors in observations.

If I remember my readings correctly, the plotting officer would even give recommended course changes to the Kaluen based on the plotted information. This would be a nice addition. One has to keep in mind that the crew is there to assist the Kaluen in his decisions. Not to blindly stand there doing nothing until told to do something.

This SH5 methodology eliminates one of the issues I had with SH3/4 in that often the player had to do everything. This may make for an exciting game but it does take a realism hit.

A question I would like to be answered is whether the player in SH5 can "take the place" of the IWO in that the player can take time away from the periscope (with its intrinsic risks) and either make the plot or more importantly review the plot.

I am sure that in real life the Kaluen would allow his crew to make the plot but might take a few moments to review the plot.

As to the speed issue. In real life, just how accurate could the Kaluen be reasonably expected to guess/estimate/calculate the speed of the target?

Is it realistic to expect the Kaluen using only observations from the periscope and stadimeter to calculate speeds within 1 knot? Now using the stationary periscope method (1.94 x L[meters] / T [sec]) can mathematically give you very accurate speeds. But using a stadimeter I don't think you can get all that finite of an answer.

Is a speed rounded to the nearest 2 knots all that unreasonable considering the realities of war and the need to keep periscope observations to about 15 seconds?

Do merchant ships maintain their speed to the nearest single digit i.e., when the Captain orders 15 knots is the merchant ship holding exactly 15 knots or does the speed vary between 14 and 16 knots? I suspect there is some variance. The merchant may or may not average 15 knots, but at any specific point in time, it may or may not be traveling exactly at 15 knots.

Some posters wrote that in SH4 you can input speeds in fractions. Just because the graphic interface allows the player to manipulate a dial to indicate 1/2 knot increments, does not mean that the game uses those increments.

For example, when cruising in SH4 I try to set my speed to 9 1/2 knots. The graphic interface allows me to do so. But every time I move the indicator to 9 1/2 the crew repeats back to me 9. I don't know if the same "rounding" occurs with the TDC i.e., I input the target speed at 9 1/2 knots and the computer interprets this as 9. I am not a coder so I can only base this on my observations.

Finally, considering the accuracy of the Torpedoes is speed down to the nearest digit all that important? Mathematically, if I can calculate all the factors and enter then into the TDC, I should be able to make torpedo shots at 4,000 yards. But in reality I need to make shots at under 1,000 yards. The sea is a cruel mistress when it comes to affecting torpedoes.

The point of my ramblings is that perhaps some thought was placed into the speed selections being restricted to 2,4,6,8... knots. Is this a way to simulate the inaccuracies of observations, variance of speeds from the targets, and the intrinsic inaccuracies of trying to push a torpedo through swelling seas at 46 knots (more or less)?

[Lanzfeld]

I noticed that the searchlights switches on at torpedo impact. I do not hope that this will spoil possibilities to make succesfull nightly surface attacks as it did in SH-3. At the Community Q&A it was stated that surface attacks are very well possible so I wonder if that's the case.

and those searchlights came on the INSTANT (actually before) the torpedo hit. How about a little human reaction delay?????????

[makman94]

Why do you say that? It's a targeting data computer that takes inputs (bearing, range, speed, AOB) and provides a solution for torpedoing the target.

:know:

Anyway, --just frustrated by negative comments all the time--and I know how software development works, as I work in that arena.

i don't know how software development works but i can say this : this tdc is not doing what is supposed to do ! thats why i am telling that it is 'funny' and show a laziness by devs .besides the issue with the speed (i wish to be moddable but this will not 'save' it) it has 'missing' important features (like gyro and spread) .also ,something else ,that 'seems' to be missing is the tdc combined with an attack map .....
anyway.... i am not negative...i am ....dissapointed !

[makman94]

The point of my ramblings is that perhaps some thought was placed into the speed selections being restricted to 2,4,6,8... knots. Is this a way to simulate the inaccuracies of observations, variance of speeds from the targets, and the intrinsic inaccuracies of trying to push a torpedo through swelling seas at 46 knots (more or less)?

the real tdc has rounded dails...that means that the germans could put in tdc's data a speed set even 3.15 knots !as most of you talking for realism here, i am thinking that if the calculated speed of the target is for example 3.2 knots and you ,as captain , order the wo to set speed at 3.2 , he (the wo) would set it at 4 ? (or 2?) or he would execute your order ?

i understand your point Platapus , but to messing something that worked in order to achieve observation inaccuracies is not good idea at all ! they could add physics at sea's water that would affect the torpedo's running and it would be up to you ,the player, how to 'mess' your tdc's settings accordinally to sea's states.but as it is done now you will never know what to set ....

my opinion...

[paul_kingtiger]

I love it! It's a simulation of a U boat captain, not a simulation of the u boat itself. For the first time every the crew will be a integral, part of the experience, doing what they actually did, leaving you to do what you actually did, rather than doing everyone's job for them.

IMO that makes it a more realistic simulation. Bit it is something new and different and will take some getting used to.

[TH0R]

First of all, many thanks for this video, it was without the doubt the most wanted one.

Some of the replies here in this thread just make me chuckle. All along people have been clamoring for a sub sim that shows the game from the captain's perspective. The devs do just that, including a representation of the captain handing off firing data to the TDC officer. And now some are claiming this is a sloppy, unprofessional job done by the devs? :nope:

Some of you really need to figure out what you want the game to be: either a simulator where you run around and twirl all the buttons, or a simulation of how a commander interacted with his subordinates. For me, the choice is the latter, and it's going to be the route I take in any mod work I undertake for this game.

I fully agree. :)

Like Luke said, I too like the new approach. It gives you more of the feeling as if you are the captain, and are giving orders to the trained crew. The very thing that was missing from the previous titles IMO. Still, I consider myself a HC player so I would love to fiddle with the TDC myself but I don't find this a bad thing. :)

THE GOOD: Probably the most positive side of the video is that the ship in question didn't sink immediately. The sinking and damage physics seem to be very fine tuned. Not to mention the DM eye candy which looked great.

I also love the new use of the rec. manual. Easy and simple to operate, unlike SH4, where you had to first select either the country or the type of the vessel. It seem to me (unless Neil opened it on freighters page before) that it opens on the ship type right after you lock on the target. And the selection is very fast and usable which is a nice improvement over the former variants. I like it. As far as the description of the rec. manual, that is a step backwards unfortunately. There are mast hight, draft, tonnage info and other stuff missing... :( There is a draft info in the torpedo depth setting AFTER you ID the tharget, but still, I would like to see it in the manual.

THE BAD: The two problems I have with this video are:

#1 The 2 point incremental speed setting. And how on Earth did you successfully hit the vessel with wrong AOB? I know it has been stated that the crew entered the right value, but still - it seems to me on the video that your values were taken... ??

#2 Are the any settings for the salvo option? Or is it just a default 'salvo' as the video suggest. I do hope not...

The 'DUD ISSUE' has been explained, that you have disabled it in the options. That is good to hear.

[TH0R]

One more thing... Why isn't there any smoke coming from ship stacks...?

[Webster]

i agree with you and lukeFF, the way its done there looks and feels more realistic so the capt doesnt have to do everything.


#2 Are the any settings for the salvo option? Or is it just a default 'salvo' as the video suggest. I do hope not...




a salvo is by definition a full volly so if you want less than all four tubes then your not firing a salvo but it is an interesting question as to after you select salvo if you can unselect some to save torpedos by turning off one or two tubes for 2 or 3 fish shot


One more thing... Why isn't there any smoke coming from ship stacks...?

maybe its light colored and just didnt show on the video

[FIREWALL]

I'm with you Neal. :yep: I'm Hands on. Whether taking a leak or playing a sim.

If I want to tick multiple choice boxes I have Silent Steel.

Yes I have to agree it's very pretty but, walking around thru the boat is going to get old fast.

I thought the whole idea of a WWII U-Boat Sim is to attack allied shipping the most realistic way possible.

I don't see it here. I understand it's only a "Preview" copy.

But the Peri\ TDC thing threw me off completely.

As I stated before I don't own or ever played RPG games and won't start now.

I will buy the Collectors Edition to add to my Sub games.

But it will be a dust collector.

I'm a hard core " NICHE " group and proud of it. :D

[Highbury]

I'm a hard core " NICHE " group and proud of it. :D

I like to think of myself as a hardcore player as well. So any system that brings more realism is ok with me. The Capt. calling out info to another on the TDC = realism IMO.

Sure fiddling with the TDC is fun, but not what we should be doing in a Captain simulator.

[urfisch]

I see no TDC. :shifty:

me too...but i think its the little tiny box in the upper left...

:D

lol...

[skip]

Have to say, I do like the way the devs have approached this version, and I for one am looking forward to getting my hands on it, on a bad note I would prefer that the periscope was clutter free of icons like the xo's head, bit of an imersion killer imo. But i can see this getting more people into the genre. and hopefully getting a Silent Hunter 6 in the future.

[Schultz]

Don't worry, the devs didn't made sh5 perfect so the modders have something to do, if it would have been perfect they would stand and do nothing.

[FIREWALL]

I don't see paying $50.00 for a sim to have to wait 6mo's to a year for our modders to make it something that should have come out of the box that way.

THEN be modded.

[Gato76]

Neil, how is the AI

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Nevermind the TDC, I want to see some soup!

[fireship4]

That was surprisingly good! Makes me all the sadder that I wont't be buying it due to the DRM :(

[ReFaN]

Nevermind the TDC, I want to see some soup!

i endorse of this message.

[malkuth74]

I do like the captains perspective though. I think its a great idea, and different.

I can understand how othrers don't like it though. They just want the same game with better graphics and new stuff.

I think the 1st person view myself is going to be a great addition, and will change how subsims are made and bring new fans to the genere.

I compare some people in this forum to those Star Trek Geeks that don't want things to change at all, everything has to be tight tight tight and on par with the book that says it is soo. And that very idea killed Star Trek.

Then some guy made a new movie, that blew away all those old sterotypes that made the old startreks so blane and boring in the end.. And produced a new huge enterprise with new fans, and a new fallowing.

This is what sub sims needed... And to the same effect its going to have to be done to save the flight sim world too.

Change is good sometimes. Don't like it play SHIII. I want to move on to the new age, and the new ideas.

Ta ta.

[Chef]

Is it me or is every officer in the control room a one-eyed wonder? What is this, the pirate crew? :arrgh!:

As always, Thanks Neal/Neil/Neel/Kneel :up:

[karamazovnew]

That's the TDC I've been waiting for... amazing job ubi. Not only do you see updated AOB while moving the scope, you no longer need to click on dials to move them :yeah: AWESOME!
Now if only we can put in a 3d AOBF with a horizontal stadimeter and we're set for manual targeting heaven :rock:

[jdkbph]

Re the "TDC" - I'm sure it's not laziness... it's budget, schedule and priorities.

For instance, if you put 50% of your resources into the graphics (environment, facilities, people and ship modeling, and the 3D interiors), another 20% into sound (voice acting, effects and music) and another 20% into the 1st person interface... what's left for stuff like TDC dials?

Devs are typically not the folks calling these shots. I'm sure they did the best they could to get the stuff that we (and probably they) are interested in into the game, but there's only so much you can do with such a small slice of the budget pie.

Yeah, just a WAG on my part, but I'd be surprised if I missed the mark completely.

BTW, the 3D interiors and the 1st person interface will be "kewl" the first half dozen times you play the game. After that?... well, I bet we'll all be wishing they'd invested those resources into making SH5 a real successor to SH3. IMHO.

JD

[RickC Sniper]

It is definately submarine gameplay from a different perspective than we've had before. It is obvious we may have to give up some of the things we've liked in the past in order to accomodate some other new things.

Some of us will like it and some of us won't. No surprise there.


Thanks for the video Neal. This is easily the most important one I've seen yet.

BTW: I thought you set the aob correctly when I first watched it. I guess we're both a couple of noobs. :oops:

[RickC Sniper]

Re the "TDC" - I'm sure it's not laziness... it's budget, schedule and priorities.

For instance, if you put 50% of your resources into the graphics (environment, facilities, people and ship modeling, and the 3D interiors), another 20% into sound (voice acting, effects and music) and another 20% into the 1st person interface... what's left for stuff like TDC dials?



Actually, I disagree. I think the devs made this submarine game the way they wanted to....from a Captain's perspective. Whether that was a good decision or not will depend on how it sells.

[karamazovnew]

I'm not sure how may have realized what's going on in the vid so let me explain:

The TDC Autoupdate button now does what it's supposed to do. You can select to input a specific bearing OR follow the periscope rotation. You no longer need to turn TDC Autoupdate OFF to input the speed, AOB and range. Even more, gone is the old problem of the SH4 Notepad, of sending all values at the same time. Gone is also the need to manually send data do the TDC.

Also, as you can see from the interface, incremental changes to the dials is now supported. :yeah: The default interface is perfectly functional and the modded interfaces will have a LOT of flexibility. :yeah:

[Webster]

Actually, I disagree. I think the devs made this submarine game the way they wanted to....from a Captain's perspective. Whether that was a good decision or not will depend on how it sells.


http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs064.gif it can be a sub captain simulator or a submarine simulator but it cant be both and all the loud voices were asking for more personal interaction and eye candy so it was easy to choose the capt over the sub as to what the simulator would be based on.

then somewhere along the way it got oversimplified for the casual gamer market in an attempt to increase target market and hopefully sales as well.

[Sailor Steve]

It looks like something even I might be able to handle.:sunny:

On the other hand I hope the 'Salvo' timing is adjustable. The wouldn't actually fire closer than five seconds apart, and from what I've read eight-to-ten seconds was more the norm.

Still and all, it looks good to me.

I also hope the crew members are moddable. I certainly don't want to see exactly the same faces in every career I play.

[Onkel Neal]

#1 The 2 point incremental speed setting. And how on Earth did you successfully hit the vessel with wrong AOB? I know it has been stated that the crew entered the right value, but still - it seems to me on the video that your values were taken... ??



Think about it, I was within 600 meters, so that's pretty close, and my "error" was not that significant. That's probably why only two hit.


I'm with you Neal. :yep: I'm Hands on. Whether taking a leak or playing a sim.

If I want to tick multiple choice boxes I have Silent Steel.

Yes I have to agree it's very pretty but, walking around thru the boat is going to get old fast.

I thought the whole idea of a WWII U-Boat Sim is to attack allied shipping the most realistic way possible.

I will buy the Collectors Edition to add to my Sub games.

But it will be a dust collector.

I'm a hard core " NICHE " group and proud of it. :D

:) Yeah, I hear you. I guess all I can say is keep an open mind.

Neil, how is the AI
http://www.subsim.com/aces1b.jpg



It is definately submarine gameplay from a different perspective than we've had before. It is obvious we may have to give up some of the things we've liked in the past in order to accomodate some other new things.

Some of us will like it and some of us won't. No surprise there.


Thanks for the video Neal. This is easily the most important one I've seen yet.

BTW: I thought you set the aob correctly when I first watched it. I guess we're both a couple of noobs. :oops:

Haha, yeah, I really wasn't paying close attention.
I think you summed it up, this isn't SH3 2.0 Some of us won't like that much, we will have to see how the game sells. If it sells through the roof, I suppose this is the direction we are headed.

[TH0R]

Think about it, I was within 600 meters, so that's pretty close, and my "error" was not that significant. That's probably why only two hit.

Doh, of course some fish had to hit - you did set it on the port side. :)

[martes86]

i don't know how software development works

Clearly you don't, when you state it's laziness on the Devs part. When some of you say those words, you lose all credibility you had, your opinions become irrelevant nonsense. You don't even know the guys (the Devs) and already state flaws of personality in the whole team? Because you don't have any particular person to blame, right? These kinds of opinions should get a stern moderation warning, or directly a ban, for insulting peole. :nope:

Oh, and, one thing I note everyone is getting all mixed up... It's not the TDC what is working wrong (not that we know of, anyways), it's the interface for the data calculations and input. The TDC is just the place where the officer (not us, Captains) inputs the data we're feeding them through the interface. :ping:

[makman94]

I'm not sure how may have realized what's going on in the vid so let me explain:

The TDC Autoupdate button now does what it's supposed to do. You can select to input a specific bearing OR follow the periscope rotation. You no longer need to turn TDC Autoupdate OFF to input the speed, AOB and range. Even more, gone is the old problem of the SH4 Notepad, of sending all values at the same time. Gone is also the need to manually send data do the TDC.

Also, as you can see from the interface, incremental changes to the dials is now supported. :yeah: The default interface is perfectly functional and the modded interfaces will have a LOT of flexibility. :yeah:

good 'catch' Kara ! didn't notice that ! at last something good !

[makman94]

Clearly you don't, when you state it's laziness on the Devs part. When some of you say those words, you lose all credibility you had, your opinions become irrelevant nonsense. You don't even know the guys (the Devs) and already state flaws of personality in the whole team? Because you don't have any particular person to blame, right? These kinds of opinions should get a stern moderation warning, or directly a ban, for insulting peole. :nope:

Oh, and, one thing I note everyone is getting all mixed up... It's not the TDC what is working wrong (not that we know of, anyways), it's the interface for the data calculations and input. The TDC is just the place where the officer (not us, Captains) inputs the data we're feeding them through the interface. :ping:

take it easy Martes....you are getting rude ! i am only expressing my opinion ,that has nothing to do with anyone PERSONALLY of the devs ! that is my thought ok ? and ,for me, i don't see that they worked hard for that tdc....
sorry , but this is what i see

ps: about the insults: i don't think that i insult anyone of the devs by saying that this job is 'fast' made but what is making sense to me is that you ,also, don't know me but this didn't 'block' you to insult me
bottom line is that i have to say my opinion only when i like something at sh series ?

[finchOU]

Dont think its been mentioned...but some of those captions are down right suck! The caption in the friggin Per. View for lock/break lock is just wrong and annoying (I dont think you should ever be able to "lock" a ship anyway)! granted on higher realism settings I would think this stuff would go away! The whole Periscope view is a mess for me. I understand the need to put extra stuff in there for "global SA" ...but my old school realism dreams tell me the that I should only belooking at what a Captain would see. Of course I completely agree that to target a broader group of costumers some..non realistic gamey ..and cooler moderner looking interfaces would need to be there to attract that crowd. i just hope its modable.

[Sag75]

I didn't read all posts.. anyway how it was possible hit the merchant with an AoB set at 127° port?? The merchant is clearly around 30° port!

okay.. probably it was a luckly hit..

[Onkel Neal]

Read all the posts or makman will call you lazy. :shucks:

[Jerik]

take it easy Martes....you are getting rude ! i am only expressing my opinion ,that has nothing to do with anyone PERSONALLY of the devs ! that is my thought ok ? and ,for me, i don't see that they worked hard for that tdc....
sorry , but this is what i see

ps: about the insults: i don't think that i insult anyone of the devs by saying that this job is 'fast' made but what is making sense to me is that you ,also, don't know me but this didn't 'block' you to insult me
bottom line is that i have to say my opinion only when i like something at sh series ?

I suspect Martes's concern is more that you're making broad assertions about their intent without understanding how the development process works. Software programming of any kind is not easy, and I speak from experience. Even very small tasks can take days or weeks to complete; features that seem simple or easy to build may actually have dozens of lines "under the hood", or be very complex in design.

In addition, your language is somewhat unclear: it is one thing to assert that you dislike the developer's choice for a UI; it is another entirely to assert that they were too "lazy" to produce one you approve of. It is entirely likely that programming that UI took just as long than one with a bunch of knobs.

In short: attack the message, not the messenger.

EDIT: Also, you need to sometimes consider that things may need to be unrealistic simply for gameplay purposes. A perfect example, from Splinter Cell: the main character has goggles with night and thermal vision; Tom Clancy was a bit miffed at this during development, but any other design choice would have been awkward (such as having to switch goggles, mid-level). Sacrifices sometimes must be made when you're controlling something using a keyboard and mouse (or controller!).

[makman94]

I suspect Martes's concern is more that you're making broad assertions about their intent without understanding how the development process works. Software programming of any kind is not easy, and I speak from experience. Even very small tasks can take days or weeks to complete; features that seem simple or easy to build may actually have dozens of lines "under the hood", or be very complex in design.

In addition, your language is somewhat unclear: it is one thing to assert that you dislike the developer's choice for a UI; it is another entirely to assert that they were too "lazy" to produce one you approve of. It is entirely likely that programming that UI took just as long than one with a bunch of knobs.

In short: attack the message, not the messenger.

EDIT: Also, you need to sometimes consider that things may need to be unrealistic simply for gameplay purposes. A perfect example, from Splinter Cell: the main character has goggles with night and thermal vision; Tom Clancy was a bit miffed at this during development, but any other design choice would have been awkward (such as having to switch goggles, mid-level). Sacrifices sometimes must be made when you're controlling something using a keyboard and mouse (or controller!).

hello Jerik,

i am not talking about the UI (this has to do with tastes and other will like it ,other not).but if it is modable,you can bet that it will be the first area to be modded.
i am talking about the fuctionality and the features it have (or not have). what i don't like is written at posts 48,101,102 of this thread

yes Martes, the input data and the way is this done, is important for the immersion but with this tdc (no gyro ? )(fuctionality) will be impossible to perform advance attacks with no 90degrees method.
and also where is the realism if i see only 'dancing' numbers with arrows left and right and have to do ten clics if the target's speed is 20 kts? (don't say 19) .sh3 is much faster than this.
and the wo must execute the given order by you (the captain)...if you say 3.2 kts he has to set 3.2kts


i can understand that the Software programming of any kind is not easy and also i understand these words of yours ''...features that seem simple or easy to build may actually have dozens of lines "under the hood", or be very complex in design...'' but they had allready a good working tdc so they had only to improve it and i am talking about the horizontal split of periscope !also,this is their job and everybody is trying to be as good as possible at his job...it is something that chosed to do ( i am not complaining at my job and i -and i guess you too-get criticized every day there)

but beside all these, when this english man(can't remember his name now) at 'top gear'(a tv show that testing cars) is testing a car is NOT interested AT ALL on how much efforts its devs put in to make it ! he will test the car ( and will never bother himself with the 'problems' that its devs had to solve or the ammount of research is 'hidden' in its engine).and if the car is fast and good will hit top scores ,if its not will hit the bottom at the top scores .and a faster car from one other company will be placed above on the top list no matter if the devs of the first mentioned car had put a lot of efforts making it (same goes with mods too...how many of you ever bothered yourselfs of the work that is behind of what you see ? the 'faster' will win... )

ps: i am asking sorry if anyone felt insulted by my words but it is time to start learning to discuss each other . this is not a place for talking with the devs of sh ....this is our place ....at least i think so

i have nothing else to say on these guys ,at the end i will be accused as 'flamer'

[Webster]

i think everyone has made valid points to ponder

[makman94]

i think everyone has made valid points to ponder
i think so too,Webster

[Bubblehead1980]

kinda liked it but still have big reservations, looks very arcadish.Lifebars, to the target lock/unlock appearing in scope when cursor is on a ship.Prob doesnt matter for me anyway bc of the DRM.The torpedo impact was nice.I am tired of the devs recycling same old sounds.They should take a q from modders and use different sounds for the scopes moving up and down and torpedos leaving the tubes etc ah well:down::06:

[V.C. Sniper]

i wished they had made the geyser from the torpedo detonation and torpedo bubble trail a bit more like the ones in pt boats knights of the sea, but its the same old effects since silent hunter 3 (i think the bubble trail from silent hunter 3 is more authentic lookking than the one in silent hunter 4).

[sweln]

Yes the FX are better than in previous Silent Hunters, still IMO they are not as good as what should be done.

Watch the explosion effects in Lost Planet 2 (same in Lost Planet 1, already a few yesrs old) :
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/captivate-09-lost-planet/48627 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/%3Cdiv%20style=)

What is interresting is that the explosions are more realistic in that game because :

You feel the heat and intensity.
The explosion blinds the screen (with blur and color tone).

[ReFaN]

the guy who calls out contacts sound so much like otto kretschmer too me :X

[TH0R]

That's the TDC I've been waiting for... amazing job ubi. Not only do you see updated AOB while moving the scope, you no longer need to click on dials to move them :yeah: AWESOME!
Now if only we can put in a 3d AOBF with a horizontal stadimeter and we're set for manual targeting heaven :rock:

That and the manual mast height input, and it would be manual targeting heaven as you say. :)

I very much like how this updated AOB with the scope works. If I am not mistaking, a step towards realism here.

[John Channing]

take it easy Martes....you are getting rude ! i am only expressing my opinion ,that has nothing to do with anyone PERSONALLY of the devs ! that is my thought ok ? and ,for me, i don't see that they worked hard for that tdc....
sorry , but this is what i see

ps: about the insults: i don't think that i insult anyone of the devs by saying that this job is 'fast' made but what is making sense to me is that you ...

Fair point, however...

It may be a language or cultural thing but saying someone is "lazy" is an insult. It's not the way we talk here, even amongst 'ourselves'.

JCC

[McBeck]

Fair point, however...

It may be a language or cultural thing but saying someone is "lazy" is an insult. It's not the way we talk here, even amongst 'ourselves'.

JCC
And concidering a few of us have met the devs in person, saying the devs are lazy is like saying a friends of ours is lazy.
They have worked hard to make the best with what they had. I dont doubt that!

[Apos]

kinda liked it but still have big reservations, looks very arcadish.Lifebars, to the target lock/unlock appearing in scope when cursor is on a ship.Prob doesnt matter for me anyway bc of the DRM.The torpedo impact was nice.I am tired of the devs recycling same old sounds.They should take a q from modders and use different sounds for the scopes moving up and down and torpedos leaving the tubes etc ah well:down::06:

Lifebars are optional and can be turned off.

[DedEye]

Will I be able to use the "fast 90" method (or derivative thereof) of attack? One of the things I liked about the uboat's TDC is if I have target speed and heading I can point and shoot at any ship in a convoy using one of these methods.

Given what appears to be a relatively short development time, I remain concerned about bugs. Both SH3 and 4 (along with uboat missions) had way too many; and some real immersion killers too.

Gonna wait.....

[Lanzfeld]

Given what appears to be a relatively short development time, I remain concerned about bugs. Both SH3 and 4 (along with uboat missions) had way too many; and some real immersion killers too.

Gonna wait.....

I dont think I am going out on a limb if I say that yes there will be bugs and yes some of them will be immersion killers.:know::know::know:

[martes86]

take it easy Martes....you are getting rude ! i am only expressing my opinion ,that has nothing to do with anyone PERSONALLY of the devs ! that is my thought ok ? and ,for me, i don't see that they worked hard for that tdc....
sorry , but this is what i see

ps: about the insults: i don't think that i insult anyone of the devs by saying that this job is 'fast' made but what is making sense to me is that you ,also, don't know me but this didn't 'block' you to insult me
bottom line is that i have to say my opinion only when i like something at sh series ?

I've already replied your PM, but I want things to be clear, that I've never made any insults or threats, however agitated I might have looked. The posts below show quite clearly my concerns:


I suspect Martes's concern is more that you're making broad assertions about their intent without understanding how the development process works. Software programming of any kind is not easy, and I speak from experience. Even very small tasks can take days or weeks to complete; features that seem simple or easy to build may actually have dozens of lines "under the hood", or be very complex in design.

Fair point, however...

It may be a language or cultural thing but saying someone is "lazy" is an insult. It's not the way we talk here, even amongst 'ourselves'.

JCC
And concidering a few of us have met the devs in person, saying the devs are lazy is like saying a friends of ours is lazy.
They have worked hard to make the best with what they had. I dont doubt that!

On this last one, for me, a "lazy" person is someone who doesn't want to do something, that prefers to sleep or lay down on a confy couch and watch TV all day. That is both a flaw of character and an insult, when such is not true. And in someone who works on this field, it'd be a rather unprofessional behaviour. And since I am a developer myself, I took offense to that.
Anyways, I'll quote myself on this one:

[...] I just stated that a moderator should take action against the kind statements like you just made.
Second, you don't know the devs either, and yet you say they're lazy!! Come on, you're just telling me why am I mad at you without knowing you, but you don't know the Devs and are bold enough to say they're lazy. I consider that an insult. By saying they're lazy, you're stating that they're crappy professionals, that don't want to do their job right. I'm a Developer too (not an SH5 developer though... [I wish I was :D ]), so I can't avoid taking offense from people who, without knowing anything, say these professionals are lazy.

I'm not against constructive criticism, I actually support it... but I won't support people saying the Devs are lazy, and some other stuff that's also nonsense. That is just out of line, and it's insulting for any professional of the branch, not just the SH5 Devs.

I think that says about everything. And I hope it clears this up. :DL

[hachiman]

1) How come he still hit with such a messed up AoB?

2) Will the crew speak German in the game?

Thanx

[karamazovnew]

1). the AOB is not messed up. AOB's are symmetrical to the torpedo track. In other words, if the torpedo track angle is 90 degrees, the gyro will be the same if a ship is closing at 60 degrees port AOB OR moving away at 120 degrees port AOB. You can test this in SH3 and SH4 too.

Plus, as you can see, the range is very small, 600m. He could've put any AOB between 30 and 150, it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

2) yes, you can choose either english or german voices

[SubV]

Lifebars are optional and can be turned off.
Yes, the devs said so in some early interview. However, I had the impression that preview version doesn't have such option.
Yes, damage and flooding bars but the devs tell me there will be an option to hide them in the game.
I don't like the new UI, either. It just doesn't look like WWII u-boat simulation.

[hachiman]

1). the AOB is not messed up. AOB's are symmetrical to the torpedo track. In other words, if the torpedo track angle is 90 degrees, the gyro will be the same if a ship is closing at 60 degrees port AOB OR moving away at 120 degrees port AOB.

Can you explain that please in a bit more detail?

To me he put his own position at port 128 degrees whereas in my understanding he should have put it port 30-45 degrees.

[TH0R]

Can you explain that please in a bit more detail?

To me he put his own position at port 128 degrees whereas in my understanding he should have put it port 30-45 degrees.

The very same thing has been bugging me as well. :)

The answer is very simple: the distance was short (~600m), he did enter port AOB (though as if the ship is sailing away from him), and lastly he fired a salvo - few eels were bound to hit.

[Heretic]

Read the KiUB documentation Karamazovnew put together and you'll learn everything you ever wanted to know about AOB and targeting in general. I'm still trying to get my head around it.

[Blood_splat]

I guess ships in SHV only travel at even speeds.:O:

[martes86]

Can you explain that please in a bit more detail?

To me he put his own position at port 128 degrees whereas in my understanding he should have put it port 30-45 degrees.

I think that it may have something to do with Neal (or is it Neil?... so hard to remember... :rotfl2:) being a direct descendant of Chuck Norris... and we all know what's up with Onkel Chuck and his "abilities"... :har:

[RustySubmarine]

I rather like the idea of being able to give out orders, for other crew members to perform. I wonder if you can ask the chef to bring you a hot mug of soup :haha:

Seriously, I think it will be more realistic than SHIII, being as you can visit all parts of the sub and see the crew moving around inside the boat. No doubt it will be improved technically, by the modders. I have ordered the limited edition tin box version which comes with a hard copy manual. :yeah:

[Platapus]

I rather like the idea of being able to give out orders, for other crew members to perform. I wonder if you can ask the chef to bring you a hot mug of soup :haha:


I think a Kaluen would ask the Chief of the Boat to fetch him a mug of soup exactly once in his career. :D:D:D

The Chief of the Boat does many things. Fetching soup ain't one of them. :nope:

[Probex]

I am curious what Neal's machine specs are?

I found all the in-game motion very choppy and apparently low in fps, so I am concerned that the game is written poorly and will be a disappointment to me.

I am also curious if the game will support wide screen resolution properly, such as 3840x1024?

[hachiman]

Read the KiUB documentation Karamazovnew put together and you'll learn everything you ever wanted to know about AOB and targeting in general. I'm still trying to get my head around it.


You have a link???

[Pascal]

...can be hear at periscope deep ... deutch technic ?

[longam]

I am curious what Neal's machine specs are?

I found all the in-game motion very choppy and apparently low in fps, so I am concerned that the game is written poorly and will be a disappointment to me.

I am also curious if the game will support wide screen resolution properly, such as 3840x1024?

From what I have seen recording at the FPS he was during the video causes a high load on the CPU.

[karamazovnew]

Can you explain that please in a bit more detail?

To me he put his own position at port 128 degrees whereas in my understanding he should have put it port 30-45 degrees.

Sorry, a bit tired now so I won't explain the geometry behind this:


http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/586/sh4img20100216032059716.jpg

- In the left image you have the proper TDC settings for that ship:
Bearing 345, AOB 30, Speed 8, Range 600m. The gyro is 327.

- In the middle image, as I move the AOB dial to increase the port AOB, the gyro deviation will increase, but at one point, it will stop and start moving backwards. I call this "Track Angle". In my example, the gyro started increasing again as I reached 80 AOB. The gyro for that setting is 318.

- In the right image I continued to increase the AOB until the Gyro moved back to it's initial setting of 327 (326 in the pic). As you can see, that was for an AOB of 130.

As I previously said, the Gyro is always the same for AOB's that are symmetrical to the "track angle". In our case, 80-30=130-80=50. In other words, Neal actually did a correct shot.

You can test this on any TDC in both SH3 and SH4, in any interace. Just move the AOB and keep an eye on the gyro dial. When it stops moving in one direction and starts rotating back, you've hit the "track angle" AOB. Any AOB on either side of that value will result in identical gyros as any AOB of symmetrical value to the track angle aob.

Hope that makes sense. You never need to use this in game, I just wanted to show why neal hit a ship with the WRONG AOB setting. :salute:

[Turbografx]

Seriously, I think it will be more realistic than SHIII, being as you can visit all parts of the sub and see the crew moving around inside the boat.


That's not "realism", its immersion and interactivity. I think SH5 will be more "immersive" than SH3 but less "realistic",that is, it will behave in a fashion that is less "true to reality".

[Heretic]

You have a link???


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=152590 is the link to the mod thread itself (which is the mod his pics above are from). In the first post there are links for the documentation. The one labeled 'the big one' has all the goodies.

[TH0R]

I am curious what Neal's machine specs are?

I found all the in-game motion very choppy and apparently low in fps, so I am concerned that the game is written poorly and will be a disappointment to me.

I am also curious if the game will support wide screen resolution properly, such as 3840x1024?


I am willing to bet that its FPS dropped due recording, to even 1/2 of what he normally has when he isn't recording.

[martes86]

I am willing to bet that its FPS dropped due recording, to even 1/2 of what he normally has when he isn't recording.

Yeah, that happens. After all, he's taking 30 caps per sec in high-res while rendering a high-end graphics scene. It's bound to happen.

[onelifecrisis]

I am willing to bet that its FPS dropped due recording, to even 1/2 of what he normally has when he isn't recording.

Yeah, that happens. After all, he's taking 30 caps per sec in high-res while rendering a high-end graphics scene. It's bound to happen.

:yep:

[Frederf]

karamazovnew is mostly right, AOB 120 and AOB 30 shots from the same side are very similar but not exactly the same. For a short range shot these solutions are very close. They get farther away in range, the more they are different.

It is easiest to imagine the difference this way. Imagine two ships right on top of each other, range 4000m, bearing 45°, speed 10 kts. Ship A has a heading in such a way that it's AOB is 030° while Ship B has a heading which makes its AOB 120°.

Say you have a really fast torpedo such that both torpedo runs take the same amount of time to get to the target. Call this time some 2 minutes. Assuming that both torpedoes were launched at the same time and all periscope sightings were taken at the same place, do you think that the ships A and B still are in the same line after 2 minutes?

Ship A should be ahead of Ship B visually as it has crossed more bearing angles since it has drawn closer to the observing sub. Its rate of bearing line crossing has gotten faster the closer it's gotten for two reasons. One, it's closer so the bearing lines are more closely spaced. Two, the AOB has gotten closer to 90° as it passes in front of the submarine. Ship B has done just the opposite, crossing fewer bearing lines per unit time and has shrunk its AOB getting closer and closer to 180 as it sails toward the horizon.

There are secondary effects to the equations like the fact that torpedoes have reach out of the tube and their gyro angle and their eventual destination's bearing are different because of this reach. Also the finite speed of the torpedo means that the travel time of the torpedo to Ship A is shorter than to Ship B and thus can cancel out the primary effect mentioned in the above paragraph partially, exactly, or can exceed it depending on the speeds and ranges involved.

Some of the replies here in this thread just make me chuckle. All along people have been clamoring for a sub sim that shows the game from the captain's perspective. The devs do just that, including a representation of the captain handing off firing data to the TDC officer. And now some are claiming this is a sloppy, unprofessional job done by the devs? :nope:

A idea, C+ execution. I want SH5 to be a "captain simulator" but not like this. Make no mistake; this is just a reworked SH3 notepad skin deep. TDC control wasn't the XO's job or the CO's job it was the plotting party's job! It's a team effort! This video doesn't show a team effort, it shows a blank-faced robot waiting to accept magic numbers from the CO in the form of a screwed up Madlib. Where are the angular rate tables or hydrophone prop counts? Why can't you should out a dozen sightings over the course of minutes and have the plotter...ya know, actually plot to figure out speed and course?

What's the crap with the magic numbers jumping on the dialog box as the CO merrily spins the periscope like a top across 10 different targets? WTF!?!?

Some posters wrote that in SH4 you can input speeds in fractions. Just because the graphic interface allows the player to manipulate a dial to indicate 1/2 knot increments, does not mean that the game uses those increments.

This was easily observable in SH4. Even fractional speeds were possible even though the voice files only said integers. I have confirmed that you can get down to at least 0.2 knot resolution by checking the resulting RPM by clicking on various parts of the dial between whole number knot settings. The same is also true for the SH4 TDC as you can watch the torpedo line smoothly change based on things like target speed in the F6 screen.

Personally I absolutely despise the absolute truckload of crap on the screen while in the periscope view. 99% of it is crap. The periscope is for looking and holding down a "give orders" key that can pop up some interface and that's it! In a real submarine there's not even a bearing readout on the glass!

I don't think the devs are lazy... I think they are inadequately insightful as to what an inspired design of this action would look like. Either this or they are fundamentally bound to poor direction/design by someone inadequately insightful. Given a chance I could design something infinitely better.

[coronas]

Anybody has noticed fire's smoke direction? It's seem perpendicular to the ship. Wind effects? :hmmm:

[Mash]

I am very disappointed by the whole user interface. What happened to the compass and depth gauges and knobs? This is a WWII game and not a modern ipod version made for average user. Looking at the manual TDC I don’t get the feeling that I am involved in making any of the targeting decisions. It seems to be done for me and I just modify them a bit. I still cannot get over how bad the whole interface looks like.

I guess I will have to wait until some series mods come out and UBI gets rid of the DRM. Otherwise, I will skip this sim/arcade.

[McBeck]

Well...I think the idea of this sim is for you to be the captain. So in that respect its better than the old ones.
Lets wait and see how much control you can actully have :)

[piri_reis]

Well...I think the idea of this sim is for you to be the captain. So in that respect its better than the old ones.
Lets wait and see how much control you can actully have :)

Well couldn't you just play with Automatic Targeting turned on in the old series, and get a similar effect?
What do people mean, when they say, this is a sim for the captain, captain doesn't touch the TDC. Well he could shove the Wep Officer aside and do it himself if he wanted to, right?

If you want a simulation like this for the captain, the deck/AA gun shouldn't give us any camera at all, and no listening at the hydrophone either.. Funny, what game do we have left then?

[Onkel Neal]

Very accurate description, but how about some illustrations? :)


karamazovnew is mostly right, AOB 120 and AOB 30 shots from the same side are very similar but not exactly the same. For a short range shot these solutions are very close. They get farther away in range, the more they are different.

It is easiest to imagine the difference this way. Imagine two ships right on top of each other, range 4000m, bearing 45°, speed 10 kts. Ship A has a heading in such a way that it's AOB is 030° while Ship B has a heading which makes its AOB 120°.

Say you have a really fast torpedo such that both torpedo runs take the same amount of time to get to the target. Call this time some 2 minutes. Assuming that both torpedoes were launched at the same time and all periscope sightings were taken at the same place, do you think that the ships A and B still are in the same line after 2 minutes?

Ship A should be ahead of Ship B visually as it has crossed more bearing angles since it has drawn closer to the observing sub. Its rate of bearing line crossing has gotten faster the closer it's gotten for two reasons. One, it's closer so the bearing lines are more closely spaced. Two, the AOB has gotten closer to 90° as it passes in front of the submarine. Ship B has done just the opposite, crossing fewer bearing lines per unit time and has shrunk its AOB getting closer and closer to 180 as it sails toward the horizon.

There are secondary effects to the equations like the fact that torpedoes have reach out of the tube and their gyro angle and their eventual destination's bearing are different because of this reach. Also the finite speed of the torpedo means that the travel time of the torpedo to Ship A is shorter than to Ship B and thus can cancel out the primary effect mentioned in the above paragraph partially, exactly, or can exceed it depending on the speeds and ranges involved.



A idea, C+ execution. I want SH5 to be a "captain simulator" but not like this. Make no mistake; this is just a reworked SH3 notepad skin deep. TDC control wasn't the XO's job or the CO's job it was the plotting party's job! It's a team effort! This video doesn't show a team effort, it shows a blank-faced robot waiting to accept magic numbers from the CO in the form of a screwed up Madlib. Where are the angular rate tables or hydrophone prop counts? Why can't you should out a dozen sightings over the course of minutes and have the plotter...ya know, actually plot to figure out speed and course?

What's the crap with the magic numbers jumping on the dialog box as the CO merrily spins the periscope like a top across 10 different targets? WTF!?!?



This was easily observable in SH4. Even fractional speeds were possible even though the voice files only said integers. I have confirmed that you can get down to at least 0.2 knot resolution by checking the resulting RPM by clicking on various parts of the dial between whole number knot settings. The same is also true for the SH4 TDC as you can watch the torpedo line smoothly change based on things like target speed in the F6 screen.

Personally I absolutely despise the absolute truckload of crap on the screen while in the periscope view. 99% of it is crap. The periscope is for looking and holding down a "give orders" key that can pop up some interface and that's it! In a real submarine there's not even a bearing readout on the glass!

I don't think the devs are lazy... I think they are inadequately insightful as to what an inspired design of this action would look like. Either this or they are fundamentally bound to poor direction/design by someone inadequately insightful. Given a chance I could design something infinitely better.

[hachiman]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=152590 is the link to the mod thread itself (which is the mod his pics above are from). In the first post there are links for the documentation. The one labeled 'the big one' has all the goodies.


Cheers mate

[TH0R]

Well couldn't you just play with Automatic Targeting turned on in the old series, and get a similar effect?

Not for me. But I agree, there should be a functional TDC. Even if you can't click on one, I would like to see the dials move or show my firing solution. :)

[longam]

Like this one? This is from the game footage.

http://www.longam.net/sh4/tdc.jpg

[Frederf]

Very accurate description, but how about some illustrations? :)

Illustrations for which, the AOB30/120 thing, periscope/TDC, or the SH4 intermediary values?

[Rykaird]

Some of you really need to figure out what you want the game to be: either a simulator where you run around and twirl all the buttons, or a simulation of how a commander interacted with his subordinates. For me, the choice is the latter, and it's going to be the route I take in any mod work I undertake for this game.

For me, the choice is the former. I'm out.