Civilized DRM Debate Thread

[ETR3(SS)]

As the thread title implies, the scope of this thread is for a healthy, civilized, debate of DRM both pros and cons. Fact is much preferred over opinion or hearsay. I welcome all members of Subsim to participate in this thread. Hopefully we can shed some light on what DRM is, how it applies to us, and how it affects us. I think a good place to start the debate would be a definition of DRM. Here are three definitions I have found.


digital rights management
n. Abbr. DRM
The use of software or other computer technology to manage the conditions under which copyrighted material in digital form can be accessed.


Computing Dictionary
Digital Rights Management legal
(DRM) Any technology used to limit the use of software (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/software), music, movies or other digital data. This generally relies on some interaction between the media and the system that plays it. For example, video DVDs (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/DVDs) usually include a region code (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/region+code). If this does not match the player's region code, the player will refuse to play the disc.
(2006-02-02)


Digital rights management (DRM) is a generic term for access control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_control) technologies that can be used by hardware manufacturers, publishers, copyright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright) holders and individuals to try to impose limitations on the usage of digital content and devices. It is also, sometimes, disparagingly described as Digital Restrictions Management. The term is used to describe any technology which inhibits uses (legitimate or otherwise) of digital content that were not desired or foreseen by the content provider. The term generally doesn't refer to other forms of copy protection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_protection) which can be circumvented without modifying the file or device, such as serial numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_numbers) or keyfiles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyfiles). It can also refer to restrictions associated with specific instances of digital works or devices. Digital rights management is being used by companies such as Sony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony), Apple Inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.), Microsoft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft), AOL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL) and the BBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC).

[SteamWake]

I dont like it and will not buy the title untill it is removed. :salute:

[Kefru]

1) The problem is that you are entirely dependant on Ubisoft to maintain the servers and your saved games. With gamers around the world playing and saving on these servers they are going to have to have huge memory capacity this is not cheap. Storage capacity will needed will be unlimited. Only answer is that they will have to start charging along the lines of pay as you play.

2) I understand that Ubi need to stop pirates but why should I have to put up with a highly restricted DRM when I have paid for the game legally. The hackers wont have this problem of course and the game will be hacked about 35 seconds after its release. This will infact encourage those who have never stolen a game before to do so.

3) I suspect that this DRM is more about stopping resale of games.

4) Added to that is the way that Ubi treats its customers, once they have your money they dont seem to care, the issues with its previous DRM games highlights their attitude. Its basically your problem.

5) I have a PC why am I being discriminated against Sony and Microsoft would never allow this rubbish on their systems it would damage sales.

6) This is going to destroy the Silent Hunter Franchise

7) Restrictive DRM is destroying PC gaming

Besides we all know that this DRM is never going to work properly there will be problems connecting, saving, accessing saved games etc etc etc. It will be a commercial disaster and Ubi will drag lots of other companies down with it.

[JU_88]

Well I dont think anyone really 'likes' DRM, there are those against and those who will tolerate.
I think its really inconsiderate of those who cannot access Broadband due to there location. hell its bordering on discrimination if you ask me.
Broad Band simply isnt available to everyone.

Speaking for myself, I will purchase SHV regardless, I want to support the franchise, I want to support the fantastic Romanian dev team and Im also exited to have a new subsiming exerience.

Im not worried about the DRM in terms of my own internet connection as only get D/C'd one in a blue moon, and when i do its nothing that a quick router reboot wont fix.
However I do worry about the reliablity of Ubi's servers, now the following statment might get me brig time here- but I gotta be honest.
If I get major/regular problems with an unstable connection to Ubis servers - when there is no issue at my end, to the point the the game is becoming unplayable.
I will most likey download & install the first illegal (but virus free) crack/DRM removal tool for SHV that i find, I have little doubt that there will be one.

I will Pay full price for my pre-ordered legit copy of SHV :up:
I will not have my SHV playing time messed up because UBIs servers are are out of action every other day.

So if the DRM goes ahead, i just hope the servers to up to scratch, I do not want to be forced to break the law.

Lastly, most of those who do download games illegally, were probabaly never going to buy it anyway - many are opportunists or 'torrent addicts' who download 10 games a day just because they can, had they no free alternative to paying, they simply just would have gone without.
Dont get me wrong I condemn those who do, as stealing is still stealing.
But its also wrong to assume that every illegal download equals the loss of sale, IMHO this simply isnt the case.

The net has made piracy increasingly worse but some DRM methods have become totally overkill in the way they punish consumers harder than the pirates.
Its like carpet bombing a village of 100 people because 1 of them commited a crime.

[Mikhayl]

Some niche titles with small publishers and a small loyal following can live with no copy protection at all without being pirated to death. See Thirdwire (http://www.thirdwire.com/) games for example. You pay with paypal or other, download the game, install and play. No copy protection at all, not even a serial number.

But for small publisher that attract a lot of following, copy protection is needed even if the effect might be marginal (because games get pirated anyway). World of Goo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Goo) is a good example of that, small publisher, huge number of fans, no copy protection, you'd think people would support that with their wallet but the game was pirated to death.

For big publisher with blockbuster games choosing some form of DRM is obvious even if the net effect is hard to quantify. But, assuming that games will be pirated no matter the kind of DRM, they need to find a good balance between "hassle for the pirate" and "hassle for the legit customer".
I don't have figures, but I don't think that games with simple protection like a serial number are more pirated than games that require online activation.

GTA IV required the user to register accounts on 3 different platforms, and it was pirated right away. The system is more problematic for the legit user than for the pirate who just needs to install a crack and start playing.

Spore is the most known example, it had a very restrictive DRM and yet was the most pirated game of 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spore_%282008_video_game%29#Controversy

In my opinion a solo game that requires permanent connection and account creation is unbalanced and creates more trouble for the legit user than for the pirate. I suppose we'll have to wait the end of the year and see how Assassin's Creed 2 for PC sells vs how much it's pirated.

Also worth considering, many games have their DRM removed with the last patch, basically when the significant sales are over. So if the DRM is so unbalanced as to be a hassle for the customer, people will delay their purchase and buy a DRM-free game a 1/4th price, not good for a publisher either.

[Brag]

I don't like it.

It doesn't have one single benefit for the customer.

It is also the first step of many toward you not being able to own any games and need to pay service fee to play.

"nuff said.

For those who don't yet understand, it SUXXS.

[MercurySeven]

Let me point out a flaw in this thread:

As DRM is correctly described by the sources you found its sole purpose is to reduce the ammount of software piracy. (Whether the system under consideration is succesful at this is another question) As DRM as such does not offer any added feature to a software the possible reduction of software piracy is the only possible point on the pro list.

Other stuff that you might think that could go to the pro list ("Yay, I can install the thing on as many pcs as I want and I have my safegames always available! ...") have nothing to do with DRM but are instead part of a feature that UBI adds to SH5 and other future games and that could very well exist without DRM attached to it.

So there you go. One point on the plus side: Possible reduction of software piracy.

But since this is the only positive aspect that DRM could ever inflict, as time goes by people will surely be happy to give you a truckload of reasons why DRM and this DRM in particular is a bad decision. ... Come to think about it, by now you can actually click on any thread in the SH5 part of subsim and find plenty of points. ;)

Edit: Well, as always too late. People already did put up the truckload. ;)

[GoldenRivet]

this DRM debate has turned into a

mass debate









:88)

[FIREWALL]

Well I dont think anyone really 'likes' DRM, there are those against and those who will tolerate.
I think its really inconsiderate of those who cannot access Broadband due to there location. hell its bordering on discrimination if you ask me.
Broad Band simply isnt available to everyone.

Speaking for myself, I will purchase SHV regardless, I want to support the franchise, I want to support the fantastic Romanian dev team and Im also exited to have a new subsiming exerience.

Im not worried about the DRM in terms of my own internet connetion as only get D/C'd one in a blue moon, and when i do its nothing that a quick router reboot wont fix.

However I do worry about the reliablity of Ubi's servers, now the following statment might get be brig time here- but I'll be honest.
If I get problems with a connection to Ubis servers when there is no issue at my end.
I will most likey download & install the first illegal (but virus free) crack/DRM removal tool for SHV that i find, I have little doubt that there will be one.

I will Pay full price for my pre-ordered legit copy of SHV :up:
I will not have my SHV playing time messed up because UBIs servers are are out of action.

So if the DRM goes ahead, i just hope the servers to up to scratch, I do not want to be forced to break the law. :down:

I don't like it.

It doesn't have one single benefit for the customer.

It is also the first step of many toward you not being able to own any games and need to pay service fee to play.

"nuff said.

For those who don't yet understand, it SUXXS.


I agree with both posters.

It's the Principle of the thing. :yep:

[sergei]

OK, I'll post this here as well, I don't think Trenken wants to answer me.
(To be fair, he may not be here anymore)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaman_Hornsby http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1250231#post1250231)
But the critical thing that makes Steam work is the OFFLINE MODE. You can still play your paid-for games if your connection goes down or is unavailable.

Which is my major problem.
I can understand a publisher (of music, movies, games whatever) asking me to authenticate my ownership of something every now and again. I don't particularly like it, but as a realist I can understand it.
But it is not the same as requiring me to be connected to them the whole time I play my single player game.
Is this really necessary for authentication of ownership?
I don't think it is.

I play a few games that have various forms of DRM.
They are all a pain in the arse to install and activate, but I happily put up with that because that is the way the world has gone.
However: NONE of them insist that I connect permanently via the internet to the company that made the game (or published it, or produced it, whatever).

I understand that some here object to DRM on principal. And good luck arguing with those people. You are never going to get any sort of agreement there.

I don't particularly like DRM, but understand that that is the way things are going to go, so I am going to have to deal with it.

I object to the manner in which it is being implemented, specifically with respect to this game.

UBI tells us about the benefits of DRM, (which isn't really DRM as I understand it, it is actually cloud computing), yet they have neglected to address the concerns of the many (read that again, MANY), who will have problems with this.

Some people may be lucky enough to live in 24/7/365 great connection land but more people than you may imagine do not.
I do not doubt the assertion that one day all will be like this: but at the moment this is not so, and those of us unable to participate in this bright future will continue to remind the lucky ones that 24/7/365 is not universal the world over.

Just to remind you:
My issue is NOT with DRM.
It is with the assumption that any gamer who wants to play this game should have a permanent, stable internet connection.

The Game wants me to authenticate online when I install: OK I can live with that.
The Game wants me to authenticate online when I start a new career: Not very happy, but I guess I can do that.
The Game wants me to be online the whole fekkin time I play the single player game: Now I got a problem.

[mookiemookie]

Well I dont think anyone really 'likes' DRM, there are those against and those who will tolerate.
I think its really inconsiderate of those who cannot access Broadband due to there location. hell its bordering on discrimination if you ask me.
Broad Band simply isnt available to everyone.

Speaking for myself, I will purchase SHV regardless, I want to support the franchise, I want to support the fantastic Romanian dev team and Im also exited to have a new subsiming exerience.

Im not worried about the DRM in terms of my own internet connetion as only get D/C'd one in a blue moon, and when i do its nothing that a quick router reboot wont fix.

However I do worry about the reliablity of Ubi's servers, now the following statment might get be brig time here- but I'll be honest.
If I get major/regular problems with an unstable connection to Ubis servers - when there is no issue at my end.
I will most likey download & install the first illegal (but virus free) crack/DRM removal tool for SHV that i find, I have little doubt that there will be one.

I will Pay full price for my pre-ordered legit copy of SHV :up:
I will not have my SHV playing time messed up because UBIs servers are are out of action every other day.

So if the DRM goes ahead, i just hope the servers to up to scratch, I do not want to be forced to break the law. :down:

:agree: I'd say you summed up my thoughts on every point exactly. I am in complete agreement with you.

[karamazovnew]

So there you go. One point on the plus side: Possible reduction of software piracy.


Let's get our apples sorted out. DRM is one thing, OSP is another. If SH5 would require any or all of the following, we wouldn't have a problem:
- original disk needed in drive
- serial number
- one online activation on first start after an install.
All of those are examples of DRM.

At the moment, the only games that have never been cracked are MMOs (actually ignore these), Steel Beasts Pro and Rise of Flight. Both were niche games and pirate groups have not wasted time on them. But all of Ubisoft's games will use OSP. Once they crack one, they've cracked all of them. And they will be cracked, Assassin's Creed 2 and PoP are reason enough. Stop piracy? No. Piss off all legit customers? Yes. How many of them will turn to pirated copies just to play the game they've just bought? You'd think they read the news about Spore... guess not.

[FIREWALL]

OK, I'll post this here as well, I don't think Trenken wants to answer me.
(To be fair, he may not be here anymore)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaman_Hornsby http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1250231#post1250231)
But the critical thing that makes Steam work is the OFFLINE MODE. You can still play your paid-for games if your connection goes down or is unavailable.

Which is my major problem.
I can understand a publisher (of music, movies, games whatever) asking me to authenticate my ownership of something every now and again. I don't particularly like it, but as a realist I can understand it.
But it is not the same as requiring me to be connected to them the whole time I play my single player game.
Is this really necessary for authentication of ownership?
I don't think it is.

I play a few games that have various forms of DRM.
They are all a pain in the arse to install and activate, but I happily put up with that because that is the way the world has gone.
However: NONE of them insist that I connect permanently via the internet to the company that made the game (or published it, or produced it, whatever).

I understand that some here object to DRM on principal. And good luck arguing with those people. You are never going to get any sort of agreement there.

I don't particularly like DRM, but understand that that is the way things are going to go, so I am going to have to deal with it.

I object to the manner in which it is being implemented, specifically with respect to this game.

UBI tells us about the benefits of DRM, (which isn't really DRM as I understand it, it is actually cloud computing), yet they have neglected to address the concerns of the many (read that again, MANY), who will have problems with this.

Some people may be lucky enough to live in 24/7/365 great connection land but more people than you may imagine do not.
I do not doubt the assertion that one day all will be like this: but at the moment this is not so, and those of us unable to participate in this bright future will continue to remind the lucky ones that 24/7/365 is not universal the world over.

Just to remind you:
My issue is NOT with DRM.
It is with the assumption that any gamer who wants to play this game should have a permanent, stable internet connection.

The Game wants me to authenticate online when I install: OK I can live with that.
The Game wants me to authenticate online when I start a new career: Not very happy, but I guess I can do that.
The Game wants me to be online the whole fekkin time I play the single player game: Now I got a problem.


He was a mole from Ubisoft Damage Control Divison. :yep:

btw Good post. :up:

[Undefined]

Unbelievable what measures they take to stop piracy :down:.

[ETR3(SS)]

Let's get our apples sorted out. DRM is one thing, OSP is another. If SH5 would require any or all of the following, we wouldn't have a problem:
- original disk needed in drive
- serial number
- one online activation on first start after an install.
All of those are examples of DRM.

At the moment, the only games that have never been cracked are MMOs (actually ignore these), Steel Beasts Pro and Rise of Flight. Both were niche games and pirate groups have not wasted time on them. But all of Ubisoft's games will use OSP. Once they crack one, they've cracked all of them. And they will be cracked, Assassin's Creed 2 and PoP are reason enough. Stop piracy? No. Piss off all legit customers? Yes. How many of them will turn to pirated copies just to play the game they've just bought? You'd think they read the news about Spore... guess not.If I may point one thing out about MMOs, all you need are the discs to play the game. Several pirate groups have sifted through the data and made their own servers. I know, I used to run a WoW server in my own house.

[tater]

As long as the DRM system is noninvasive, and functions as a form of "copy protection" to prevent theft I'm fine with it. The noninvasive part is critical. I want none of my usage information seen without my explicit (and optional) permission. I don't want it to ever interrupt my gaming sessions, either. Not ever, not for a moment.

As a father of two small children, I have very limited gaming time, and if there is a net hiccup and I can't play a favorite game that is not an online game I'm going to be more than a little POed.

BTW, if they asked nicely, "in order to develop new simulations you might enjoy" I'd likely let them have-at my gaming habit data. I require that to be my choice, however.

[ETR3(SS)]

this DRM debate has turned into a

mass debate









:88)Spot on.:nope:

[MercurySeven]

Let's get our apples sorted out. DRM is one thing, OSP is another.

Just the point I wanted to make. And as I said: Whether the system succeeds in reducing software piracy depends on the system.

From a pure technical and non-emotional point of view I must admit that I see a very slim chance that if there was a complete genious abong the software developers that program DRM and he had an extrordinary good day, then he might actually produce something that reduces (not stops!) software piracy.

As you pointed out this did not happen so far. But hey, the guy wanted a positive aspect of DRM and the possible reduction of piracy is the only thing DRM could ever achieve.

[karamazovnew]

If I may point one thing out about MMOs, all you need are the discs to play the game. Several pirate groups have sifted through the data and made their own servers. I know, I used to run a WoW server in my own house.

I've played WoW for months on a private server before buying the game and wasting 2 years f my life on the official ones. I only said "forget about MMO's" because the whole point of an MMO is to play it online with many other users, preferably without loosing your 50+ characters once a week :haha:. MMOs can't be cracked even if they are.. so to speak.

[Undefined]

All of this could only mean one thing. Ubi doesn't care of satisfaction of consumers, they care about money.

[onelifecrisis]

Well I dont think anyone really 'likes' DRM, there are those against and those who will tolerate.+1
I think its really inconsiderate of those who cannot access Broadband due to there location. hell its bordering on discrimination if you ask me.+1
Speaking for myself, I will purchase SHV regardless, I want to support the franchise, I want to support the fantastic Romanian dev team and Im also exited to have a new subsiming exerience.+1
Im not worried about the DRM in terms of my own internet connetion as only get D/C'd one in a blue moon, and when i do its nothing that a quick router reboot wont fix.+1
However I do worry about the reliablity of Ubi's servers...+1
One last thing, most those who do download games illegally, were probabaly never going to buy it anyway- they just would have gone without. Dont get me wrong I condemn those who do -as it is still basically stealing. But its wrong to assume that every illegal download equals the loss of sale, IMHO this simply isnt the case.+1

:o
Say something I disagree with. Go on I dare ya.

[tater]

All of this could only mean one thing. Ubi doesn't care of satisfaction of consumers, they care about money.

That's their job. I'm 100% fine with that, actually. If they cared about anything else I'd be concerned, actually. Satisfaction only matters as it pertains to generating revenue. The corollary is that the only way to express an opinion to them is to not buy something.

Steam or other distribution ideas are a separate issue. This OSP thing only helps the bottom line if the net sales increase because of OSP. Or more precisely to this debate if the requirement that everyone be connected to play actually increases sales.

Everything else aside, the connection requirement is the ONLY real issue here. If that requirement alone does not increase sales, OSP is a failure (this folds in the idea of criminals (pirates) deciding to pay and hence increasing net sales).

I should be clear that this also includes sales for future products since I in fact think this is more of a data mining thing than anti-piracy. Knowing our gaming habits is valuable data, and they will know all about your gaming habits, even which fish you prefer, and at what range ;) .

[JU_88]

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

:o
Say something I disagree with. Go on I dare ya.

Um...ok... Ducks are actually made entirely out of sand and polystyrene :D

[karamazovnew]

Um...ok... Ducks are actually made entirely out of sand and polystyrene :D

I KNEW IT!!!!
Evidence:
http://www.spiritsdancing.com/portfolio/images/ducks2.jpg

Who's crazy now ha?!!!

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j174/Jbubs/funny-pictures-evil-easter-bunny-16.jpg

[JU_88]

:haha::haha:

[sergei]

I should be clear that this also includes sales for future products since I in fact think this is more of a data mining thing than anti-piracy. Knowing our gaming habits is valuable data, and they will know all about your gaming habits, even which fish you prefer, and at what range ;) .

And here we get to the heart of what this is.
DRM systems exist that do not require 24/7 connections to the game producers servers.

It is not about protecting their intellectual rights, but about gathering marketing data.

If that is what it is, then damn well admit it.

At the end of the day I can either accept it or not.
That is my choice as a consumer, and your choice as a producer.
And you are right. The world will continue on without me.

But please, try to credit me with a little bit of intelligence will you.

Do not pretend you are adding value to your product when in fact you are restricting my ability to enjoy it.

[mookiemookie]

http://imgur.com/BRNFU.jpg

[Randomizer]

I don't like it and will not buy it thereby voting with my wallet but come on people this continued moral outrage is really over the top.

Suspect that UBISoft knows full well that they are alienating a significant portion of their Silent Hunter fan base and just do not care. SH5 is obviously aimed at the RPG loving kids with the wireless Internet and the big bucks.

Final say on OSP/DRM from this call sign...

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1250635&postcount=31

Cheers

[sergei]

I don't like it and will not buy it thereby voting with my wallet but come on people this continued moral outrage is really over the top.


Yeah, you are right.
I don't like it either, but will not be buying it due to cold hard facts.
(My internet connection seems to be made from a bit of string and two tin cans.)
But, I'll stop bitching about it.

You're right randomizer. Arguing against this is probably like arguing about capitalism.
Sure,you may like/dislike (delete as applicable) it, bit it ain't gonna make any difference is it?

[ETR3(SS)]

Moderators, please lock this thread and let it die. It is clear some people didn't read the guidelines for this thread before posting.:nope: