Future Modding of SH3 when SH5 is released

[Stoker]

Hi, Last year I started a new thread in regards to a 8 km horizon for NYGM. During that thread Stiebler made an interesting statement.

Stieblers Quote:

"There are no plans to make one, because the official release of SH5 is becoming close. When SH5 is released, it is very likely that all modders for SH3 will be asked by Ubisoft to stop supporting SH3. This is what happened to the 'Pacific Aces' team of SH2 when SH4 was released. Since Ubisoft owns the copyrights of the original games, they have every right to make this request".

If this request does indeed happen, and given all the bombshells coming out about SH5 (only VII boats,War ends 1943,DRM etc), are there any modders out there who will honour this request?. Any views?

[CaptainNemo12]

Looking at all the great mods that are WIP at the moment, I don't think SH3 modding will stop anytime soon.:salute:

[Jimbuna]

I think there is life in the old dog yet http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[FIREWALL]

I don't think Ubisoft has the "Balls" to tell the modders to stop on SH3. :haha:

Or that they'll listen. The modders that is.

[urfisch]

i think sh3 might be a good ressource for porting things over to sh5...or the other way round.

:know:

[Hitman]

I don't remember that we were told to stop modding, nor officially or indirectly via Neal. By the time PA was complete, SH3 was still in beta status and so superior that any comparison was impossible.

We did discuss many times what we should do to not displease UBI, and we consulted it many times with Neal, specially before making PA a subsim-com bonus mod, but that's all.

With Sh5 things could eventually be different, because SH3 is not so far away from Sh5 in terms of scope and quality as SH2 was from SH3, and also it seems that SH5 will be born with the huge handicap of the silly DRM. But let's wait and see what happens ... normally publishesr tend to forget about the older stuff once they have released a new product, and in any case, tell people to stop modding is like trying to put walls in the country.

[=FI=Ghost]

"There are no plans to make one, because the official release of SH5 is becoming close. When SH5 is released, it is very likely that all modders for SH3 will be asked by Ubisoft to stop supporting SH3. This is what happened to the 'Pacific Aces' team of SH2 when SH4 was released. Since Ubisoft owns the copyrights of the original games, they have every right to make this request".

If this request does indeed happen, and given all the bombshells coming out about SH5 (only VII boats,War ends 1943,DRM etc), are there any modders out there who will honour this request?. Any views?

I am not sure what international law says on copyrights and property, but in my opinion, if you have bought a game, you own it as your private property; thus, you can do whatever you want with it as long as you don't use it to gain financial benefits. So, I think that Ubisoft did not have a right to ask that, and modders have every right not to obey if they are asked to stop. Modding a game is a process that you do with something that you own, and sharing a mod without gaining financial profits is completely legal.

I am not really a lawyer, and I don't have to be right, but I think that's how things are..

[CWorth]

Try and stop people modding SH3 due to SH5... With the controversial new DRM,the limited scope of the SH5 in terms of playable subs(one actually) and limited years to play in I really cannot see it doing to well for Ubi this time around. Sure people will jump on it simply because of "OOOOHHH pretty graphics" but I think the actual die hard sim fans will stick to what they have now with SH3 and SH4 which to me are superior to what I have seen with SH5 in terms of actual content. This is juts my opinion of course. Time will tell but I just do not see modding stopping anytime soon with SH3.

[CWorth]

I am not sure what international law says on copyrights and property, but in my opinion, if you have bought a game, you own it as your private property; thus, you can do whatever you want with it as long as you don't use it to gain financial benefits. So, I think that Ubisoft did not have a right to ask that, and modders have every right not to obey if they are asked to stop. Modding a game is a process that you do with something that you own, and sharing a mod without gaining financial profits is completely legal. I am not really a lawyer, and I don't have to be right, but I think that's how things are.. Thing is that is really iffy. Legally you do not own the software you are mearly paying a license fee to use it on your own computer but Ubi still owns full rights to that program. Gaming rights and such are a very grey area in terms of laws as they have never been really placed in any position to be tried in a court of law over these kinds of issues. I really have no clue where Ubi would or would not have any say in these kinds of matters.They do legally own all rights and claims on the softwaere you are using but as to whether they can say you need to stop modding a game that has been modded from day 1 of its release I don't think they could do that honestly. Most courts in my experience would look at it like they have been allowing it all these years and now they are saying you can't do it.Simply would not fly by what I know of the law. Not a lawyer myself just going off of what I have seen and read in other law cases.

[=FI=Ghost]

Thing is that is really iffy. Legally you do not own the software you are mearly paying a license fee to use it on your own computer but Ubi still owns full rights to that program. Gaming rights and such are a very grey area in terms of laws as they have never been really placed in any position to be tried in a court of law over these kinds of issues. I really have no clue where Ubi would or would not have any say in these kinds of matters.They do legally own all rights and claims on the softwaere you are using but as to whether they can say you need to stop modding a game that has been modded from day 1 of its release I don't think they could do that honestly. Most courts in my experience would look at it like they have been allowing it all these years and now they are saying you can't do it.Simply would not fly by what I know of the law. Not a lawyer myself just going off of what I have seen and read in other law cases.

I see, thanx for clearing that out.

The most important thing here is that, in my opinion, SH III (and IV) will continue to live on as long as there are people like us; and so will the modding for these two.

[sabretwo]

Thing is that is really iffy. Legally you do not own the software you are mearly paying a license fee to use it on your own computer but Ubi still owns full rights to that program. Gaming rights and such are a very grey area in terms of laws as they have never been really placed in any position to be tried in a court of law over these kinds of issues. I really have no clue where Ubi would or would not have any say in these kinds of matters.They do legally own all rights and claims on the softwaere you are using but as to whether they can say you need to stop modding a game that has been modded from day 1 of its release I don't think they could do that honestly. Most courts in my experience would look at it like they have been allowing it all these years and now they are saying you can't do it.Simply would not fly by what I know of the law. Not a lawyer myself just going off of what I have seen and read in other law cases.

That's all true. Plus, there's another factor to consider. For such a legal action (request for injunction, lawsuit, other..) to be worth the legal expense from a business perspective, there must be a real loss to the plaintiff. In the case of mods for old games, it's impossible to quantify the potential loss in new game sales. It would be a serious waste of legal funds to chase modders around because of fear that a great modded old game will be more attractive than a new one.

The same P&L-driven mindset that decided to implement DRM would logically decide pursuing SH3/SH4 modders is purely a waste of money regardless of whether their license gives them merit for an injunction.

[Hitman]

Disclaimer!: Not willing to start a legal discussion here, but as jurist I will tell you some things I know. Not for further discussion, but for simple information.

The intellectual property is not protected by the contents of a stupid license you supposedly accept when you install the game, for the very simple reason that you had no chance to negotiate it with the company. That's what we call in Spain "general contracting conditions" or unnegotiated conditions. The contents of the intellectual property is defined by the law, and anything in the EULA that is against the law, or the laws that rule customers rights in the EU simply is considered as not put there, as a protection of teh customer. Period.

Now, regarding the contents and extents of the intellectual property of the code by UBI, they could theoretically enforce a prohibition to MODIFY their stuff, using it as a base, but NOT to release for free stuff that is not based in their property. This, for example, includes any new graphic that you create from scratch and can be used to replace an original SH3 one. There could be a deep argumentation about the extents of what would and not be prohibited, but as I have already said, this is not something I would like to happen here.

The official subsim.com position on this matter, else Neal says something different is:

We will respect any decission that UBI makes regarding such questions. If UBI wants the modding of their products to stop in subsim.com forums, so be it. Subsim.com will not enter legal discussions or unfriendly relationship with gaming companies, unless something very serious would justify it. And the modding thing is right now not such a reason.

Now please, let the thread continue but avoid legal discussions, and let those for lawyers in the courts. :D

[=FI=Ghost]

Let's just hope that it won't come to that. Even if it does, tough, we can always move to another forum:arrgh!:

[JScones]

I'm tempted to do some more work on SH3Cmdr simply because I am not sensing a mass exodus to SH5 just yet.

[piri_reis]

Not that I mod much, but the thought of UBI requesting the modding to stop, just gets me going.
No way they will do that, and if they do, it's on like donkey kong. :stare:

On the other hand, if SH5 isn't a huge flop, and they get reasonable and drop the DRM, most modders could move to that platform, until then I think this forum will go strong.

[bigboywooly]

What you have to remember is there are still ppl in here that cant play SH4 due to comp specs
Let alone SH5

My own comp is touch and go as to whether will play SH5 and is only just over a yr old

I see SH3 going for a long time yet

[Uber Gruber]

I'll comment on this via a great quote from the film Sexy Beast

"Where there's a will, there's a way....and there's always a facking way!"

Excepty of course you should replace the a in facking with a u...I'm not exactly sure why i can't write that word, even my 8 yr old knows of its existance so denial is a bit pointless...anyway, moving on.

[Rapt0r56]

After all i heard and see now about SHV, i think i prefer SHIII i have personalyzed it for my own perfect, and now we get new Rooms from Flakmonkey, Enhanced Rooms from DD / Luca, and maybe in future some interior fire effects from urfish. I stay here to mod my lovely SHIII. :up::rock:
I will give SHV a try, but Ubi can't degrade me off SHIII!:arrgh!:

[Edit]: The Time will show what we can do/mod better in SHV...

[irish1958]

Hitman says the the EMEA is not enforceable in EU courts.
I am sure that in the USA it is, as the courts in USA always side with corporations in any action against the consumer. And the recent shift of our Supreme Court to the vary far right doesn't suggest any change in the position.
To quote from the EMEA:
"It is not permitted:
...........
To modify the Multimedia Product or create any derived work
..........
To create or distribute unauthorised (sic) levels and/or scenarios,
- To decompile, reverse engineer or disassemble the Multimedia Product."

If Ubisoft wants to send the storm troupers into your home to seize your copy of SilentHunter3 or 4 (and presumingly SilentHunterV) in the US there doesn't appear to be any way to stop them.

[Uber Gruber]

Rules are made for fools to follow and wise men to interpret.

As a FREE MAN, I fundamentaly agree with this adage. Even if I can't spell, fundamentaly.:88)

[MLF]

Perhaps SH5 will give inspiration for some future SH3 mods:yeah:

MLF

[ryanglavin]

If Ubisoft wants to send the storm troupers into your home to seize your copy of SilentHunter3 or 4 (and presumingly SilentHunterV) in the US there doesn't appear to be any way to stop them.

Personally, if that happened to me, my first reaction would be to shoot them with 1 of my 28 guns. Nobody would stop me, because i live in south eastern michigan, and no one has guns down here. I'll just pull at 2nd amendment and get nation-wide claim. its ok to dream. INVASION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY MOFOS!!!

[sergei]

I'm as PO'd as everyone else here about the whole DRM thing, but now it appears that some here are reacting to entirely imaginary threats.

[FIREWALL]

How do you catch an internet modder and serve him with legal papers ?

[CptCrunch]

I agree that SH3 has a lot of life in it yet.
Until SH5 comes out we really don't know if the mystical 'immersion factor' will be as good as the eye candy.
We'll just have to see.
I'm going to have to replace my PC to play SH5 - at the moment that might be a struggle.
But the real killer is that I read somewhere else in the forum that Ubi will cease server support for SH3 sometime this year
i.e. after SH5 comes out -
So SH3 will not be killed but neither will it be encouraged to thrive :-?

[Hunter]

Actually, there mod forums outcide US and even EU legislation.:woot:

[johan_d]

Did UBI obtain the rights from the German government to recplicate the u-boats? or even the UK and US for recplicating their ships?
Or from the designer company and ship wharfs?

[urfisch]

german law says copyright ends after 30 years, if there is no new owner of it.

and therefore the design of the boats seems to be free for use. there arent even original plans of boats from the original owner, the shipyards. i called blohm+voss in hamburg for original plans of the type VIIC, and they couldnt help me, also my call at Thyssen Marine System, new owner of B+V couldnt help - the archive had a waterdamage and plans where destroyed. there are simply no more plans, so there are no more original copyrights on it.

:know: