Torpedo evasion manouvers

[Captain Sub]

Dear folks,

how to evade incoming torpedos when your sub is not a seawolf and both countermeasures have failed?

Here's a real fun manouver I developed back then, the insane dimitri: (proof screenshots down in the thread)

1. Go to a shallow depth of aproximately 130-150m.
2. Go to max speed (atleast ~33kts). If cavitation occurs, descend a few meters until it stops.
3. Turn your boat so the torpedo approaches at your 9 o'clock and keep it that way.
4. Fasten seatbelts and remove & secure all dishes aswell as other loose and fragile objects.
5. When the torpedo is in range of 1 nautical mile (know by the ping), immediatly set rudder to 33° right (maximum!) while setting depth to something like 1000m (making sure all tanks are 100% flooded for fastest possible crash diving)
The sub will now be set into a crazy downspiral and for a moment the boat may appear as much as 45° (corrected) nose down!
5. Now you have to experiment, because I don't remember this part so well. At some point in your crazy downspiral (when you're at 400m or so) reset the rudder and set depth to max depth (550~ if i remember correctly, depends on sea level) so the boat will leave the spiral and level at exactly at max depth. There isn't anything to do wrong or chances of suicide once you have found the right timings.
If you reset the rudder too late and don't have enough downward motion anymore, I believe the fast drift will kill your speed. It's safer to reset the rudder before ordering max depth.

The fast change of direction and depth has the potential to confuse a torpedo, however to your detriment comes the fact that in DW, sometimes torpedos can perform athletic manouvers of up/downward movements.
I would say that with this technique, your survival chances per torpeo lie at aproximately 1/4.

Because this is from my memory and I currently don't have DW installed, there could be inacurate information here. After all you'll have to test this for yourself.
Also: I'm not sure how mods play into this, I used to play mostly stock 1.3 back then.


This was the only remotely effective emergency manouver I found that could shake off a torpedo in a situation after everything else has failed, but I'd be pleased to hear about your manouvers aswell.



peace

[goldorak]

Ha so you're a sitting duck waiting for the torpedo to acquire you and then do some last effort manoeuvers to try to escape ? Thats a very bad way to do torpedo evasion. With whatever mod you're playing.
The first rule is don't let the torpedo acquire you, and put the torpedo always at 120 degree from your course. If the torpedo is wireguided and a player is on the other side you're not even guaranteed that he will go active. What happens if he goes passive ? Your active intercept is useless and therefore the estimated distance of the torpedo is unknown without the pings.
No, the right way to evade is to know what the torpedo is doing, launching an uuv can be very helpfull, launching countermeasures not so much since the adversary can triangulate their position and therefore your own position much quicker and of course bypass them.

[Captain Sub]

Ha so you're a sitting duck waiting for the torpedo to acquire you and then do some last effort manoeuvers to try to escape ? Thats a very bad way to do torpedo evasion. With whatever mod you're playing.
The first rule is don't let the torpedo acquire you, and put the torpedo always at 120 degree from your course. If the torpedo is wireguided and a player is on the other side you're not even guaranteed that he will go active. What happens if he goes passive ? Your active intercept is useless and therefore the estimated distance of the torpedo is unknown without the pings.
No, the right way to evade is to know what the torpedo is doing, launching an uuv can be very helpfull, launching countermeasures not so much since the adversary can triangulate their position and therefore your own position much quicker and of course bypass them.

You didn't get it at all, did you?

Since Patch 1.4 by the way, wire-guided torpedos have been made useless, so ASW's are the only real contenders left.
If a few of those are dropped 3nm near you out of thin air, and two of them hang on to your countermeasures but 1 gets through, what are ye gonna do, huh?

[Arclight]

Pray?

[goldorak]

You didn't get it at all, did you?

Since Patch 1.4 by the way, wire-guided torpedos have been made useless, so ASW's are the only real contenders left.
If a few of those are dropped 3nm near you out of thin air, and two of them hang on to your countermeasures but 1 gets through, what are ye gonna do, huh?

Why oh why are you still using DW+1.04 ? :o
Use Lwami 3.09/3.10 mod or AT3 mod or DWX mod.
The gameplay experience changes 180 degrees and for the better. :D

[Captain Sub]

Pray?

Or do something about it and use the little manouver I demonstrated here...

got it, now?

And now, back on topic, please.

[Arclight]

Jeesh, relax man. I got it the first time. :lol:

To be honest though, sending a sub in an out-of-control downward spiral doesn't strike me as proper procedure. :hmmm:

Ussually I go to flank, turn to get the incoming torpedo at my 90deg, either port or starboard, and turn into it hard when it's close, and order a change of depth.

If your method works, fine, but mine doesn't produce so much soiled underwear (70deg down-angle?! :o). :lol:

[Dr.Sid]

70 downward angle in DW ? Now you really must be playing some special mod. :arrgh!:
Anyway there is even better maneuver. Don't get shoot at. Torpedo evasion means you failed. Sure, it will happen often in the game, but you should always think about how to avoid that.
But otherwise I agree .. getting away is often everything you need. Sure, if you get torpedo dropped from 3 miles, drop as many CMs as possible and do your 70 degrees trick (if you can), and praying is good too and screaming usual.
But if it is regular torpedo running at you from some distance, especially those cheap'n'slow Chinese stuff .. simply run.
It's good tactic in FFG too, as it has no CM (that towed one is mostly useless). But in FFG you can avoid being shot at more easily, as it has helos.

[Molon Labe]

70 downward angle in DW ? Now you really must be playing some special mod. :arrgh!:


That "mod" is DW 1.03, which had some pretty major ship control issues. He's found a way to use them to his advantage, that's all. It shouldn't be possible to do that in DW 1.04, the "auto planesmen" keep that from happening. The input of the rudder might even be overridden at high speed or something to that effect--the rudder command ends up being a "max performance turn" instead of something that sends the sub into an SUV rollover.

[Dr.Sid]

Cool .. I didn't know that. I know 1.03 had depth keeping troubles, but that it actually sent sub down in turn, which is realistic, that is new to me.
Of course it is a problem as long as you don't have ways to counter it.

[Molon Labe]

Cool .. I didn't know that. I know 1.03 had depth keeping troubles, but that it actually sent sub down in turn, which is realistic, that is new to me.
Of course it is a problem as long as you don't have ways to counter it.

Yes, exactly. And that's exactly how the debate went back then, realistic physics vs. ways to control the ship to get realistic high-performance maneuvering.

[Captain Sub]

That "mod" is DW 1.03, which had some pretty major ship control issues. He's found a way to use them to his advantage, that's all. It shouldn't be possible to do that in DW 1.04, the "auto planesmen" keep that from happening. The input of the rudder might even be overridden at high speed or something to that effect--the rudder command ends up being a "max performance turn" instead of something that sends the sub into an SUV rollover.

We'll see about that :O:, as I'll have DW 1.04 installed in a few hours.


peace

[Captain Sub]

That "mod" is DW 1.03, which had some pretty major ship control issues. He's found a way to use them to his advantage, that's all. It shouldn't be possible to do that in DW 1.04, the "auto planesmen" keep that from happening. The input of the rudder might even be overridden at high speed or something to that effect--the rudder command ends up being a "max performance turn" instead of something that sends the sub into an SUV rollover.

I have DW 1.04 installed and tested this manouver.

So I went into a singleplayer mission with 'show truth' on and let someone fire a torpedo and waited til it started homing in.

At about 0.8nm it started homing in on me so I did my insane dimitri as described above.
The torpedo got completly confused and lost it's tracking on me and went by.

Tested it a second time firing a 65cm torpedo and steering it back to my boat in active homing.

It nose dived down right at me but then suddenly it lost it's homing and simply continued forward. In the picture you can see below the torpedo simply continued forward without making any turns, a bug? You're right the manouver doesn't make the boat go 80° down, only 45° now but it still works as good as it did back then, or even better lol. Torpedos normally make the most artistic turns, they get you 100% no matter how fast you're diving or turning. But for some reason, this manouver confuses them completly.
So, with my secret trick revealed, you have a lifesaver for the worst case scenario at your hands, take it or leave it :P
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/517/torpedoevasion.png


Same here...torpedo completly confused and passing me without making any turn for another half minute or so.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/5379/torpedoevasion.jpg

and another test. all 3 out of 3 tests succesful. This actually works better than in 1.03 lol!

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6791/torpedoevasion3.png

peace

[goldorak]

I have DW 1.04 installed and tested this manouver.

[cut]

So, with my secret trick revealed, you have a lifesaver for the worst case scenario at your hands, take it or leave it :P

[cut]


peace


Yeah its a lifesaver allright IF you're still "crazy" enough to play with DW 1.04.
Try out Lwami 3.09/3.10 or AT3 or DWX and you'll see a whole new more realistic game. These dogfight maneouvers are all but eliminated.

[Captain Sub]

Yeah its a lifesaver allright IF you're still "crazy" enough to play with DW 1.04.
Try out Lwami 3.09/3.10 or AT3 or DWX and you'll see a whole new more realistic game. These dogfight maneouvers are all but eliminated.

dear goldorak,

ok I'll test Lwami, the AT3 or DWX I don't know where to get. None of them are posted in the subsim download sections.

[Captain Sub]

Dear folks,

I've tested the manouver with Lwami 3.09.

Evading the torpedo was hard because LWAMI has apparently managed to dumb down torpedos so much that now they won't even lock on over a distance greater than 0,5nm, anymore! This is laughable.

So what I had to do was shoot an MK48 and pre-activate it until about 0,5 nm, then activated it would finally homed in to me and i did my manouver.

The torpedo was evaded as usual.

These 2 are LWAMI 3.09 pictures.

The shot was a little darker so I enhanced my Seawolf on the left.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/6191/torpedoevasion4.jpg

And here's another photo proof evading an enemy torpedo just so you don't think i'd be fooling you with my own torpedos. I can also send you the savegame for this situation if you want.

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/243/torpedoevasion5.png

peace

[Theta Sigma]

The download links for RA and AT have been posted repeatedly. Most especially in their stickied dedicated threads. ;)

[Bubblehead Nuke]

This is something that I always hated about this 'sim'. The physics have always left a little to be desired. Lets not get into the operational procedure and constrictions that a captain would have to balance.

Yeah, I know it is off topic a little bit but you know I chim in anyway:

Anyway, anything more than a 40 degree up/down bubble and you will have LOTS more problems than evading a torpedo.

Just a few things off the top of the mind

1) Your reactor is gonna crap out on you
2) battery spills acid out the top vents (bad becuase you are gonna need it once main propulsion dies)
3) the crew falling over themselves to as the forward /art bulkheads become the floors. Who is gonna fight the ship?
4) You lose propulsion because the oil is not longer being pumped where it should. Those generators need lubrication you know.
5) oh, and the hydraulic plants are gonna puke on you. Good luck on that recovery with no controls.

I could max the editor with the things that are gonna be BAD and will prevent you from being able to recover from such a manuever let alone fight AFTER you somehow manage to survive it.

One other thing, at a flank bell, you are going to go more than 3 times the length of your hull in a matter of SECONDS. Do the trig on this and you can tell that you are gonna see the beer can effect real fast.

I still play DW, but I hope that the ComSubSim address some of these isses and makes a decent SIM and not a arcade game.

So enjoy the gyrations, but you are missing out on being a bubblehead. This sim is about the mind and tactical skill, not turning and burning.

[NFunky]

Hey goldorak,

You've mentioned LwAmi 3.10 twice now... You don't happen to know where a man might download it would you?

[goldorak]

Hey goldorak,

You've mentioned LwAmi 3.10 twice now... You don't happen to know where a man might download it would you?

Commanders Academy and Dive Center website.
Here : http://www.commanders-academy.com/

You have to be registered that's all. :D

You can download lwami 3.09, as for 3.10 I don't remember if the guys have actually finished and released it.
I only play with DWX these days.

[Bill Nichols]

This is something that I always hated about this 'sim'. The physics have always left a little to be desired. Lets not get into the operational procedure and constrictions that a captain would have to balance.

Yeah, I know it is off topic a little bit but you know I chim in anyway:

Anyway, anything more than a 40 degree up/down bubble and you will have LOTS more problems than evading a torpedo.

Just a few things off the top of the mind

1) Your reactor is gonna crap out on you
2) battery spills acid out the top vents (bad becuase you are gonna need it once main propulsion dies)
3) the crew falling over themselves to as the forward /art bulkheads become the floors. Who is gonna fight the ship?
4) You lose propulsion because the oil is not longer being pumped where it should. Those generators need lubrication you know.
5) oh, and the hydraulic plants are gonna puke on you. Good luck on that recovery with no controls.

I could max the editor with the things that are gonna be BAD and will prevent you from being able to recover from such a manuever let alone fight AFTER you somehow manage to survive it.

One other thing, at a flank bell, you are going to go more than 3 times the length of your hull in a matter of SECONDS. Do the trig on this and you can tell that you are gonna see the beer can effect real fast.

I still play DW, but I hope that the ComSubSim address some of these isses and makes a decent SIM and not a arcade game.

So enjoy the gyrations, but you are missing out on being a bubblehead. This sim is about the mind and tactical skill, not turning and burning.


Listen to this man, he knows what he is speaking of.

:know:

[Dr.Sid]

So many old faces ! Nice to see you guys .. :up:

Btw. those angles on screens are really crazy ! I guess it's time to pull Tom Cruise from the controls. :arrgh!:

[Captain Sub]

So many old faces ! Nice to see you guys .. :up:

Btw. those angles on screens are really crazy ! I guess it's time to pull Tom Cruise from the controls. :arrgh!:

Dear Dr.Sid,

no the angles are max 45° as I said. It's only the camera that gives the illusion that the sub is much more steep.



peace

[NFunky]

@goldorak

Ah, so 3.10 is still just a wind in the willows, oh well... I would love to play with DWX and I actually did for a little while, but because I don't play online, the AI bugs really started to kill the game for me.

[Neptunus Rex]

Listen to this man, he knows what he is speaking of.

:know:

I always thought a nice reactor scram or some other casualty would have been a nice add to SC and DW. It's just a bit too simple when you know the boat's not going to break.

Exceeding T-AVE would ahve been a good one or just some high temperature alarms that would require throttling back.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

I always thought a nice reactor scram or some other casualty would have been a nice add to SC and DW. It's just a bit too simple when you know the boat's not going to break.

Exceeding T-AVE would ahve been a good one or just some high temperature alarms that would require throttling back.

As an ex-nuke, I would of course LOVE to see something like that. However, it would not really add much to the sim. After all, we just pushed the dome around. Our job was to keep the screw turning and the lights burning.

99.9% of the playerbase would not idea what TAve means. Let alone something like:

"Con, Manuevering, Reactor scram, Rig ship for Reduced Electrical."

They would have no idea what that really means. or how it would effect the tactical situation.

Now if it was something like.

"Manuevering, Con, Shift propulsion to (low power) silent mode"

and got back

"Con, Manuevering, Propulsion shifted to silent mode, propulsion limit ahead standard"

THAT would mean something and add to the sim. They would have to balance the ability to move with stealth vs the ability to move quickly when needed. Of course add a specific time scale when shift between modes. That way you have to think ahead and PLAN.

[Neptunus Rex]

Don't forget those nice large transients when the SLAM-SLAM occurs shifting to 2F-2F.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Don't forget those nice large transients when the SLAM-SLAM occurs shifting to 2F-2F.

Again, this would come under the title 'operational contraints'. A CO would have to decide what is best.

Sure, you can shift to high power mode fast, as long as he KNEW that he was going to announce to everyone in listening range that a nuke boat is around and ready to drag race.

[JamesT73J]

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I know Tim Grab (TimmyG00) had a similar approach.

Go online, you always get this. A percentage of people will play the game, rather than the sim, if you will. I remember back in the days of multiplayer SC; everyone knew about "Stallion Storms" from Akula players. Likewise, with Torpedoes being silver bullets, 8-round salvoes on a 30 degree spread were not uncommon, because you'd be sure to hit somebody. In this respect, the greater precision required in LWAMI is welcome, because you really do have to work your torpedo solution, sometimes several times. It's far easier to do this with one fish, rather than several.

[Snow White Sorrow]

I've only ever managed to go "oh god I'm gonna die" and get blown up :P