Confusion over Campaign [Merged]

[Reece]

IIRC, quite a while back a survey was presented by Neal asking what the most important part in SH5 is, a list was given and the one I voted on was "Dynamic Campaign"!:-?
Now SH3 was held back from release so that we could have a Dynamic Campaign and all this time I assumed that this was, in fact, so, now we are being told that it wasn't, it was a Random Campaign!!:doh: so when I filled in the Survey I was under the impression that Dynamic = Random, so too I think many others here in Subsim, I feel this is why the uproar, the new SH5 Dynamic Campaign is basically scripted with some random events, but what I expected was a Random Campaign!:oops::yep:
I wonder how many others had this same idea?:hmmm:

[Kapitanleutnant]

Everybody considered SH3 to be dynamic.
Ubi just moved the goalposts to fit in with their plans.

[Carotio]

Well, I like the idea of RANDOM elements in the campaign too, like it's possible to mod in both SH3+4 with the mission editor, and if there's a mission editor in the SH5 disc too this time, then it's not my major concern. But still, agreeing to the meaning of a term is essential to which way a discussion is lead. So yeah, the campaign should be random, so it's not the same every time you play.

[Mikhayl]

SH3 and SH4 campaign: random with entirely fixed elements, scripted player objectives distributed randomly.

SH5 campaign: random with dynamic elements, player objectives unknown so far but I guess it will follow the curve set between SH3 & 4, ie more detailed and varied.

I don't get the fuss over this, it's like people love to freak out :)

[Sailor Steve]

After all this you still can't figure it out? What we meant by 'dynamic' was actually random. SH4 was exactly the same, but had some scripted events, such as pilot rescue, commando and spy insertion, supply delivery etc. This was actually exactly what SH1 had, but with improvements and additions.

One of the things some people asked for was true dynamics, i.e. your actions could elicit some reaction from the enemy, maybe even change the outcome of the war. They don't seem to have gone that far, but it looks like there will be AI resposes to your actions, including throwing more forces into areas where you've left your mark.

I feel this is why the uproar, the new SH5 Dynamic Campaign is basically scripted with some random events
No, what they have said repeatedly is that it's random with some scripted events (like SH4) and some dynamic reactions thrown in. "Dynamic" means that the campaign itself is capable of reacting, changing and growing.

Whether they have actually achieved that goal remains to be seen, but you keep harping on this same theme over and over and over again, and you don't seem to be listening to what's been said. Every time they give a new explanation you wait a day and bring it up all over again.

Sorry to rude, but this time you really got to me.

ps. Back when the 'dynamic' discussion was going on for SH3 I stopped thinking in those terms after someone made the distinction (even back then) between 'random' and 'dynamic'. After that I started calling AOD, SH1 and SH3's way of doing things "Career Mode".

[JU_88]

I think the hysteria over the SHV campaign is down to some people misunderstanding and then jumping to conclusions.

They tend to selectivly quote something Dan or an artical says
and then follow up with the phrase...
"It sounds to me like they are saying..." or "I think this means..."

The Devs have said its an improved dynamic campaign & explained how it works about ten thousand times already.

[Laffertytig]

sailer steve is spot on here. a dynamic campaign is a campaign where your actions can influence how it plays out, like falcon 4.0 for example.

none of the campaigns in the silent hunter series have been truly dynamic, they're random campaigns in every sense of the word.

i dont get the mass hysteria either:hmmm: i assume there a lots of people here who remember the disaster that SH2 was with its terrible scripted campaign mode. this new campaign mode sounds streets ahead of that for sure.
ive got an open mind bout this SH5 campaign, it does sound interesting but time will tell i guess.

[Reece]

After all this you still can't figure it out? What we meant by 'dynamic' was actually random. SH4 was exactly the same, but had some scripted events, such as pilot rescue, commando and spy insertion, supply delivery etc. This was actually exactly what SH1 had, but with improvements and additions.

One of the things some people asked for was true dynamics, i.e. your actions could elicit some reaction from the enemy, maybe even change the outcome of the war. They don't seem to have gone that far, but it looks like there will be AI resposes to your actions, including throwing more forces into areas where you've left your mark.


No, what they have said repeatedly is that it's random with some scripted events (like SH4) and some dynamic reactions thrown in. "Dynamic" means that the campaign itself is capable of reacting, changing and growing.

Whether they have actually achieved that goal remains to be seen, but you keep harping on this same theme over and over and over again, and you don't seem to be listening to what's been said. Every time they give a new explanation you wait a day and bring it up all over again.

Sorry to rude, but this time you really got to me.

ps. Back when the 'dynamic' discussion was going on for SH3 I stopped thinking in those terms after someone made the distinction (even back then) between 'random' and 'dynamic'. After that I started calling AOD, SH1 and SH3's way of doing things "Career Mode".
If it is random with some scripted events that would be OK but that is not what I am reading, and many others I bet, what I see is:
1) Starting a new campaign and have to complete a competency course before being given command of your boat, and each time you start a new campaign you will have to go through this again!!
2) We will start from a predetermined point and given orders to follow, once done will either return to port or given new orders, these orders are predefined to historic events.
3) As historic events progress the starting point will change to reflect this.
4) Depending on the outcome of events (depending on the orders given) the next starting point may change to a random, limited, number of starting points.Once the campaign has been completed starting a new campaign will be basically the same thing, this will happen over and over, the only random change will be as in 4) above.:-?
I hope I am wrong, and although it may not be exactly as I describe I fear it will be similar!:oops:

JU_88 Said:
The Devs have said its an improved dynamic campaign & explained how it works about ten thousand times already.Please explain it to me then, I haven't seen this!!:hmmm: A discussion here would clear this up.:yep:

[Mikhayl]

1) I seriously doubt that the training debut will have to be done more than once. Even if, what's so wrong with it? They said it's basically a training patrol. Supermods in SH3 moved the starting date before September 1939 to do precisely that!

2) this is the same as SH3 and 4, depending on your flotilla you start from the same harbour and you're given a variety of orders. And supermods for SH3 all thrives to do just that, see how many pages in the GWX manual about scripted/historical events, and all the radio messages in LSH and WAC to direct the player "where it's at", because participating in big events is more fun than sinking random ships in random convoys.
How the patrol actually pans out remains entirely variable, you may or may not encounter ships en route, on patrol zone, be attacked by aircraft, hunter killer groups, you name it.

3 & 4) same as SH3 & 4 and real life. Starting points = harbours. Depending on your flotilla you start in Kiel or Willelmshaven, move to the Atlantic bases, back to Germany or Bergen or any available harbours at a given date, including a possible transfer to the Med. What's the big deal?

Have some faith man :)

[Reece]

1) I seriously doubt that the training debut will have to be done more than once. Even if, what's so wrong with it? They said it's basically a training patrol. Supermods in SH3 moved the starting date before September 1939 to do precisely that!

2) this is the same as SH3 and 4, depending on your flotilla you start from the same harbour and you're given a variety of orders. And supermods for SH3 all thrives to do just that, see how many pages in the GWX manual about scripted/historical events, and all the radio messages in LSH and WAC to direct the player "where it's at", because participating in big events is more fun than sinking random ships in random convoys.
How the patrol actually pans out remains entirely variable, you may or may not encounter ships en route, on patrol zone, be attacked by aircraft, hunter killer groups, you name it.

3 & 4) same as SH3 & 4 and real life. Starting points = harbours. Depending on your flotilla you start in Kiel or Willelmshaven, move to the Atlantic bases, back to Germany or Bergen or any available harbours at a given date, including a possible transfer to the Med. What's the big deal?

Have some faith man :)Sorry to put a dent in that but here is a quote from Dan:
Dan quoted TarJak: To get access to ANY historic port flotilla that you choose, you have to mod it. You will have several starting points that we have chosenAlso:
Dan said:
Yes, you have a crew. Yes, there's a storyline to it

[Mikhayl]

Sorry to put a dent in that but here is a quote from Dan:

This is the SAME as SH3 :)
You will have several available harbours, seeing the trailers I imagine at least Kiel and/or Willy, Bergen, La Spezia and at least Brest, St Nazaire and maybe Lorient and Bordeaux like in stock SH3, and I imagine at least 2 different flotillas.
That's plenty enough to get going, but then modders can add more harbours and flotillas like they did for SH3 & 4.

As I read it, the storyline applies to the crew. I bet Dan's right hand (eh) that if you start 2 careers from the same harbour at the same date with the same flotillas, you won't have two identical patrols. "Dynamic" and even "scripted" don't mean "linear". The devs repeatedly said that they wouldn't want that.

[TarJak]

OK so is your concern over having only one path to take?

Sounds like this is not the case from Dan's answer you've quoted. There will be more than one starting point. Only thing I'd want cleared up in addition to that would be does that mean dates as well as ports/flotilla's? I assume it would have to otherwise you'd be stuck with Willy Keil and Flensburg as the only starting ports without modding.

From the point where the campaign starts, the path the action takes will diverge depending on your actions based on Dan's other responses in terms of the campaign being more dynamic.

This sounds like a good thing not a bad thing to me.

If you were to go through the "training" patrol each time would that be such a pain? Well that depends on what's in it and whether it is able to be skipped over easily enough. An as Mikhayl pointed out then a mod will end up coming along to let you avoid it.

There are planty of players who actually do a work up patrol when they first start a career rather than going out all guns blazing 1st patrol.

[Reece]

OK so is your concern over having only one path to take?

Sounds like this is not the case from Dan's answer you've quoted. There will be more than one starting point. Only thing I'd want cleared up in addition to that would be does that mean dates as well as ports/flotilla's? I assume it would have to otherwise you'd be stuck with Willy Keil and Flensburg as the only starting ports without modding.

From the point where the campaign starts, the path the action takes will diverge depending on your actions based on Dan's other responses in terms of the campaign being more dynamic.

This sounds like a good thing not a bad thing to me.

If you were to go through the "training" patrol each time would that be such a pain? Well that depends on what's in it and whether it is able to be skipped over easily enough. An as Mikhayl pointed out then a mod will end up coming along to let you avoid it.

There are planty of players who actually do a work up patrol when they first start a career rather than going out all guns blazing 1st patrol.Sounds good, I misunderstood the starting points to be total number of points available.:oops:
The other area that has me worried is the set of historic events, that appear to be scripted and after a few campaigns you would know exactly what to expect (repetitive), maybe these can be modded out and added in the rnd layer (if there is still one)?:hmmm:
Lets face it you don't want 100% historically correct or we would know exactly what will happen when and where!:oops:

[TarJak]

Yeah but I don't see these as gamekillers for me. It is no different in SH3 with GWX now. I can go to the beaches off Normandy late on 5th June 1944 and sure enough there will be a nice fat juicy set of targets coming my way early next morning! Protected by large swarms of highly sensitive escorts after my blood.

My bigger concern is that this period of the war is not there and would need to be modded or an add-on released to allow the above scenario to be played out in SH5.

[Soundman]

Would just like to point out, a "dynamic" campaign with a subsim such as this is a little harder and maybe not so realistic because of the lag time.

Someone mentioned "Falcon 4.0" here as an example, and it's a good comparison. When you fly an air mission in a modern jet fighter, your mission averages a couple of hours and things change pretty quickly. In a WWII subsim, you could sink a couple of carriers (such as Midway), but you might not get back to port until a month later. Of course, when you radio back to headquarters of the outcome, you effected the strategy of battle/mission planning by doing so, but by the time you arrive back in port a month later (in many cases), all the mission strategy changes were given to other boats leaving port before you.

[razark]

The other area that has me worried is the set of historic events, that appear to be scripted and after a few campaigns you would know exactly what to expect (repetitive), maybe these can be modded out and added in the rnd layer (if there is still one)?

That sounds like the SH3 "dynamic" campaign. Historic events are scripted in. A convoy or task force may have a different class of battleship or cruiser in it, but that task force is going to spawn on z date at point (x,y) and go to (x1,y1). In one campaign, it might have a particular mix of ships, and in another campaign, it might have some others.

As for what a dynamic vs. a random campaign is, here is my take.

Random campaign: What we have in SH3/4. If I go on patrol, and set up at point x, a tanker might spawn, and I sink it. Another tanker might spawn, and I sink it. I wait long enough, and a tanker will spawn, and then another, and then another. On my next patrol, I go back where I was, and a tanker might spawn. And another...

Dynamic campaign: I sail out to point x, and a tanker might spawn. I sink it. Another might spawn, sink it again. I wait and sink 20 tankers. Next patrol, I go out to point x, find that there's no tankers because someone noticed if they send a tanker past point x, it sinks. Instead of an endless stream of tankers that might spawn, I meet a hunter/killer group.

[JScones]

FWIW I don't mind the "introduction" cruise, or whatever it's called, at all, especially if you are starting out as the IWO. Sounds fine to me, as I always take a shakedown cruise whenever I start a new career anyway. I wouldn't want it any other way.

Of course, if it's interspersed with some training video elements, that's diffrent. But surely not?

[JScones]

I think the hysteria over the SHV campaign is down to some people misunderstanding and then jumping to conclusions.

They tend to selectivly quote something Dan or an artical says
and then follow up with the phrase...
"It sounds to me like they are saying..." or "I think this means..."

The Devs have said its an improved dynamic campaign & explained how it works about ten thousand times already.
This is where I have a small concern though. Grab out your SH3 box and look on the back. It says "Dynamic Campaign". Search around the internet and there's something from the devs at the time stating that SH3 will have a "Dynamic Campaign".

We found out a week after release that it was actually a "Random and Scripted Campaign".

The same devs are now promising a "Dynamic Campaign" for SH5.

That might be true, but after being led down so many wrong paths so far, I'm still sceptical on what they really mean.

Unless you can provide me links to some of the 10,000 explanations on how it works (not just those stating that it's dynamic). For some reason, despite there being so many, I'm not finding any that do anything more than describe it at a high level. :hmmm:

[Reece]

I agree with what you are saying Jaesen, I am speculating on what the campaign will be like, probably to the point of paranoia!!:88) but due to what is happening with having only the VII boat and ending in 43, no rough seas, possible SH4 lightning bug and seeing no dynamic shadows in the latest video's and snapshots, the periscope view look awful, well I'm just a little disillusioned!:oops: I wish they would spend a little time explaining these things!:yep:

[TarJak]

Neal's phone bill would then have to be paid out of Subsim donations!:D It's always hard to get a full explanation for something that may be complex over a phone line with a limited amount of time and a lot of ground to cover.

[cappy70]

The game is not just released, yet....:salute::)

[sk065]

hold on a minute......no rough sea's? you got to be kidding me right? quote from the dev's please?

I think the campaign is the least of my worries. I'm more worried about the finite number of scripted storyline dialogue coming from your crew. This is going to get stale after a while and effect replayabilty.

I would prefer if they just carried out your orders and that was it.

[Adriatico]

I think the campaign is the least of my worries. I'm more worried about the finite number of scripted storyline dialogue coming from your crew. This is going to get stale after a while and effect replayabilty.

I would prefer if they just carried out your orders and that was it.

Exact point...:yep: maybe just a quick soldiers reply.

It would be nice to have a silent rumors of crew chatting in nearby compartment... of course - in non combat situation.
Even better, to have it as sounds option - on/off

[sk065]

I think everything up until now I have managed to keep an open mind with and was coming round to the idea of 43 ending and type VII boats etc.....BUt no rough sea's? How can they justify that? If so, this is a deal breaker for me and I wont be buying SHV.

[Sgtmonkeynads]

I'v been hearing about the no rough seas in other threads too, but for the life of me can not find where they siad that? I'm hopeing it's only humor. Does anyone have a link to that interview that says there is no rough water.

[JScones]

There's this from the Community Q&A thread:

During the storm in the Atlantic, will the stormy features/elements like rain drops, lightning, layers of grey clouds be more realistic than the previous releases of SH?

The weather system is enhanced compared to the previous titles; it is now more dynamic and realistic. Expect to see weather conditions correct to the climate zone in which you travel, for the respective season and moment of day. You will face raging blizzards in the North Sea and enjoy the nice weather in the Med, and this will change the way you fight.No overt mention of sea state though, so speculate away! :yeah:

[Adriatico]

Whenever I got promisses... instead of screenshots - it turned out as something wrong...
(in my long gaming carier)

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Well, I don't know what to think anymore. Like you said, to much speculation on our part, and to many smoke and mirrors on theirs. So, I
will still hope for the best and see what comes......

I still think that we need to rally round the flag though, I mean the reason I love Sh is the noble fight to the end of a lost cause. When all is against and you have to make due with what you have. But then again my patron saint is Jude, saint of lost causes. Believe me I've fought the good fight many times just to be kicked in the nutts after words, I hope this is not one of those times.

[JScones]

Well, Webster said he read somewhere something about rough seas not being modelled...but I guess unless he can produce a link, then it was never said. I couldn't find anything similar in the Q&A thread. :hmmm:

I'm not gonna speculate - like many people I assumed "Operation Drumbeat" to also mean the inclusion of Type IX U-boats...how wrong that was, LOL!

[Sgtmonkeynads]

Have you ever seen the movie Butch and the Sundance Kid?

The look the Butch gives Sundance before they run out the door for the last time?

That is what my face looks like right now.:06::shifty::o:dead:

[Adriatico]

Well, Webster said he read somewhere something about rough seas not being modelled...

In that case they would be the first game in history - to open "bargain bin" on eBay before release date...

[Mikhayl]

The "no rough sea" thing is complete bullsh!t, people see a dozen screenshots of units in fair weather and they "fear" that there will be no rough sea, and two posts later people are "convinced" that there won't be rough sea. Sheesh, enough with the crazypants rumors already :doh:

[Adriatico]

It seems no "new modeled rough sea" issue rather than no "rough sea"...
Correct me if I'm wrong...

Anyway... the mentioned "confusion" could not be the fault of market (us fans) side, that's the only sure thing...

* * *
Could You imagine, for example : That one month before "BoB SoW" goes gold... people have not seen new Oleg's clouds on screenshots ?
:hmmm:

[Hartmann]

Yeah but I don't see these as gamekillers for me. It is no different in SH3 with GWX now. I can go to the beaches off Normandy late on 5th June 1944 and sure enough there will be a nice fat juicy set of targets coming my way early next morning! Protected by large swarms of highly sensitive escorts after my blood.

My bigger concern is that this period of the war is not there and would need to be modded or an add-on released to allow the above scenario to be played out in SH5.


The problem is the inclusion of a scripted history line in the game with RPG elements , it means for example, every 5th of june of 1944 you have to be in Normandy to "unlock" the next part of the history ( and survive of course).

And the killer is that if the files can´t be edited ( not confirmed yet )

[Sailor Steve]

Sorry to put a dent in that but here is a quote from Dan:
Also:
Yes, you have a crew. Yes, there's a storyline to it.
Nice way to cherrypick quotes to suit your argument. What Dan actually said was
Yes, you have a crew. Yes, there's a storyline to it.

But the campaign is dynamic and that's the end of it :) I wouldn't have it any other way .

Now that may turn out to not be true, but nothing he said gives cause to believe otherwise. I guess the other thing he said is also true:

People keep turning words around trying to find proof that their greatest fears come true: Scripted Campaign.

Oh no! I have it in quotes! Dan said "Scripted Campaign!"

[Chisum]

Dynamic or not campaign will be the same I think.
But for me the basic and critical point of SH5 is the end of de campaing in 1943.
That's incredible.

Except if it's just to be able to sell an add-on in six months, it's totaly unacceptable and I understand the reaction of Neal in the interview.

Now we have only one hope is that our development teams are able to give us a game complete.

[sk065]

I know that what the Devs have basically said is that we can influence the enemies movements and responses. However, can other german uboats/ships also influence this?

Also, is it a persistant world where the clock ticks in realtime and events happen even while you are in port or is it a series of missions, each one based on the last?

[Yosarian]

However, can other german uboats/ships also influence this?
No way, like in CoD where you as a hero storming alone the Reichstag, you can now change in SH5 the entire course of the war alone with your submarine ...impressive isn't it?:rock:

[TarJak]

The problem is the inclusion of a scripted history line in the game with RPG elements , it means for example, every 5th of june of 1944 you have to be in Normandy to "unlock" the next part of the history ( and survive of course).

And the killer is that if the files can´t be edited ( not confirmed yet )
How do you KNOW this? Apart from the fact the game has a finite end in May '43, we don't know how the campaign part of the game will play out yet do we? We will know in March.

[Mikhayl]

The devs improved the campaign and the objective system greatly between SH3 and SH4, I just can't imagine why SH5 would go backward.

In SH4 the number of different objectives is finite but they are put in a "pool" and drawed semi-randomly depending on dates and flotilla. So although you can draw the exact same objective, the likelihood of it being at the exact same date is very low. And even IF you draw the same objective at the same date and same flotilla in 2 different careers, it's very unlikely that the actual patrol will pan out in the same way.

For example in SH3 if you play with the "transfer to med" mod, you start your new career from an Atlantic base and the first mission invariably has you crossing Gibraltar. "Same old same old" at a glance, but what are the odds of two Gibraltar crossings going the same way? Same for the eventual encounters en route, so ultimately although you have the same objective, the missions are never the same.

[sk065]

The devs improved the campaign and the objective system greatly between SH3 and SH4, I just can't imagine why SH5 would go backward.

In SH4 the number of different objectives is finite but they are put in a "pool" and drawed semi-randomly depending on dates and flotilla. So although you can draw the exact same objective, the likelihood of it being at the exact same date is very low. And even IF you draw the same objective at the same date and same flotilla in 2 different careers, it's very unlikely that the actual patrol will pan out in the same way.

For example in SH3 if you play with the "transfer to med" mod, you start your new career from an Atlantic base and the first mission invariably has you crossing Gibraltar. "Same old same old" at a glance, but what are the odds of two Gibraltar crossings going the same way? Same for the eventual encounters en route, so ultimately although you have the same objective, the missions are never the same.

Ive never played SH4 as the Pacific Campaign never appeald to me. However what you describe above sounds acceptable to me as long as the 'pool' of mission types is vast and that there are no scripted 'triggers' where the game forces you to move from the atlantic to the med for example. If this is to happen it should only happen depending on how the war is progressing and not on a predefined date.

[Mikhayl]

But historically the war progression is tied to dates. For example in SH3 if you're in Brest, when 6 June 1944 comes you'll be transfered back to Germany all the time at the same date. But it's still fun and replayable.
Now in SH5 this might be different with the dynamic aspect, but I doubt that our actions will have more than local effects has shown in the video, it shows enemy assets redeploying but it doesn't show/say that Malta can fall in German hands. I hope so anyway, a single u-boot singlehandly changing the course of the whole war sounds silly IMO.

[Navarre]

I hope so anyway, a single u-boot singlehandly changing the course of the whole war sounds silly IMO.
not hope too much, read the last sentence in this PDF document
http://static4.cdn.ubi.com/SH5dynamiccampaigndocinfojournalists_38220178171_8 901.pdf?e=1264263688&h=bdcc610ca760419fbc9d1f2c89396c3c
(right click and save as...)

[tater]

I have less than zero interest in playing a u-boat, but it sounds like the campaign might actually be partially dynamic. Dynamism requires that the campaign can alter due to player actions in some meaningful way. In SH4, you can get spotted and have the airstrike chance increase, for example. This is not dynamism. Neither SH3 or 4 were dynamic, IMO. Not in the least.

In a u-boat campaign, if the boat uses the radio, for example, there needs to be a chance that a convoy headed right at him (but over the horizon and invisible) might very well alter course and never be seen. If the boat makes a torpedo attack, the same should also e true, and perhaps have ASW assets assigned to the area to try and hold the boat down until it is forced to surface.

I don't expect or require "war changing" stuff in most circumstances, it's just too complex. I could see certain important engagements written with alternate (scripted) outcomes. Say smaller invasion forces in the med—a mythical attack might well change the short term outcome. The nice thing from the perspective of scripting the u-boat war is that there is nothing the boats could have done to do anything but delay the inevitable. I the PTO all fleet boats could do was accelerate the end for Japan, the outcome was certain in both cases (in hindsight though people at the time could have not been so sure).

Failure to redirect convoys, etc would mean no real dynamism, IMO.

I'd be very disappointed if the game didn't actually keep track of named ships so that once a certain ship is sunk it is gone forever. Ie: if a warship with 1 in the class gets sunk it should never be seen again. If there were 2 and you sink one, the chances of seeing the other should appropriately drop. For merchants this isn't a big deal, the US effectively built an infinite number. Heck, DEs and DDs were effectively built in infinite numbers (the USN built about 2/3s as many DE/DDs during the war as the KM built u-boats, lol)

[Mikhayl]

not hope too much, read the last sentence in this PDF document
http://static4.cdn.ubi.com/SH5dynamiccampaigndocinfojournalists_38220178171_8 901.pdf?e=1264263688&h=bdcc610ca760419fbc9d1f2c89396c3c
(right click and save as...)

Thanks, good find, it's very interesting. Well it can indeed go into alternate history, but... if I play with 100% difficulty, it will be near impossible for me to wipe out an entire task force or convoy, so ultimately my actions would have only little reactions. I hope :)

[rascal101]

Hi to all
I've been thinking about another post re the campaign issue that many of us are worried about - the post in question states that there is a difference between 'dynamic' and 'random' and I think the difference and the explanation provided is excellent

So perhaps the easiest way to deal with the problem would be for Neil if He's in touch with the any one from the developer team to ask Dan for a more detailed explanation of what 'he' means by dynamic

As one who has been moaning the apparent lack of Dynamic Campaign, and who would dearly love to be wrong on this count, I stand corrected if what I should be moaning about is the apparent lack of an 'open-ended, random' campaign - as it would seem that this latter description would be closer to the way SH3 was constructed.

I think the problem remains for all of us that are concerned about this, be it dynamic, open-ended, or random, what we are concerned to learn is if the new SH5, or the missions therein will play out differently every time, or at least appear to do so as in the case of SH3 or will the game play out pretty much the same way once we've played through the first time round

Can some one get a comment on this single issue from the developers, its all that concerns me, the rest of what I have seen so far looks absolutely fantastic and I can wait to purchase and play this game?

Best Regards
Rascal

[TarJak]

^^Great find. Best info on the campaign workings I've seen so far if still very high level. Everyone concerned or confused about what Dan means about Dynamic Campaign needs to read this!

I'm now more comfortable with how the dynamic campaign will operate and only have the two key complaints around the 1943 end date and the

In reading this if you got to 1943 with the Med and Egypt in German hands, then the result of the Battle of the Atlantic may not have been quite so decisively certain by May 1943. Almost all the German u-Boat assets would potentially be freed up for Atlantic convoy duty instead of being stuck in the Med. This actually makes the decision to end the campaign in 1943 even more confusing.

[JScones]

In reading this if you got to 1943 with the Med and Egypt in German hands, then the result of the Battle of the Atlantic may not have been quite so decisively certain by May 1943. Almost all the German u-Boat assets would potentially be freed up for Atlantic convoy duty instead of being stuck in the Med. This actually makes the decision to end the campaign in 1943 even more confusing.
Spot on here. This is what I have been thinking for a couple of days. If the campaign is truly dynamic--as everyone here who seems to know better has been telling me--then if I do well, the Battle for the Atlantic may not end in mid-1943...I, the lone hero and ultimate saviour, may still be going strong winning the war all by myself well into 1944...1945...1946...1947...

TBH I'm not a fan of "alternate reality" campaigns, as I fail to see how one person can make such a difference (look at Prien - he sunk the Royal Oak within the first month of the war when the Allies were most vulnerable, but did it really make that big a difference? And did he go on to sink Task Forces like we are seemingly expected to do in SH5? And even if he had, do we really think it would have made a difference, overall?).

[TarJak]

Only difference one boat could have made would be if it came home with 100,000 GRT every patrol. 4-5 boats doing that WOULD have made a big difference to the result.

Given this it beggar belief that ending it all in May 1943 makes any sense beyond not meeting the challenge of modelling the technical changes seen after that date into the game.

[Seeadler]

This is what I have been thinking for a couple of days. If the campaign is truly dynamic--as everyone here who seems to know better has been telling me--then if I do well, the Battle for the Atlantic may not end in mid-1943...I, the lone hero and ultimate saviour, may still be going strong winning the war all by myself well into 1944...1945...1946...1947...

Yes, that could be the true reason why the campaign ends in 1943.
With such a system under the hood, the player and his successfully operations could be come so overpowering that he could be win the war alone for the German side.

Because then Ubisift can not just say "hey... you still lost anyway" without lost of credibility, so it is better to stop the whole thing in 1943 and it is up for you to think about how it could go further and ends.

So is one of the last questions in this document:
"Do you have any idea how "your" world look in May '43?"

:rotfl2:

[JScones]

Yeah, I thought that..for about 1 second. The thought of me singlehandedly winning the war in 3.5 years was not a pleasant one, lol.

[tater]

The u-boats winning the war period is not plausible, frankly, so yeah, alternate realities are silly.

Partial dynamism—tactical for sure (rerouted convoys and ASW assets)—is desirable. Keeping track of major combatants sunk is incredibly desirable (when you see a 3d Yamato class in the PTO after having sunk 2 it's a major immersion killer). Even a sort of theater-wide dynamism is useful—a given campaign (say Malta) is prolonged because of heavy losses to subs, for example.

Any larger-scale stuff is just nonsense, and only as accurate as the least modeled bit (you cannot gauge the overall war success based on merchant losses without having a decent model of, say, the entire wartime American economy).

Better to have dynamism where it would be visible to one guy (the skipper).

[Lanzfeld]

Misspelling Neals name. -5 points.:shifty:

[TarJak]

Or you could simply read the document they have released to Journo's:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1243538&postcount=43

[JScones]

Or you could simply read the document they have released to Journo's:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1243538&postcount=43
:up: Certainly the most informative thing I have seen on the topic to date.

[PL_Andrev]

In another thread SEEADLER (thanks SEEADLER) published a real screen with a dynamic campaign map SH5. It can therefore see how the dynamic campaign ...

link to full size: http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/76m2-k.png

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/7228/sh5map.jpg

We see that the dynamic campaign is being built by the three scenarios. The player can choose where to fight (attack the convoys to Malta, or enemy forces in Alexandria), which can help realize the available missions. We are not alone - if you can find enemy contact our Regia Marina that can help us to destroy all enemy ships.

These are my assumptions, I have not seen this presentation to the press in Germany. Maybe our german friends tell us something more about it.
:salute:

[d@rk51d3]

Thanks.

Looks interesting. :salute:

[THE_MASK]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1243538&postcount=43

Ok , there is an actual purpose to the campaign . That is great . Actually better than great . I guess you play as representing the entire u boats in the area you are fighting . You just have to imagine that your outcome is the outcome of all the u boats in your area of fighting . Thats fine with me . Anyway they are trying to show the player the outcomes when certain stretegic things happen .

[urfisch]

sure, no problem. but after studying the german document, i must admit, that its only a written version of the dynamic campaign trailer. so nothing new in here. just this pic is new.

In another thread SEEADLER (thanks SEEADLER) published a real screen with a dynamic campaign map SH5. It can therefore see how the dynamic campaign ...

link to full size: http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/76m2-k.png

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/7228/sh5map.jpg

We see that the dynamic campaign is being built by the three scenarios. The player can choose where to fight (attack the convoys to Malta, or enemy forces in Alexandria), which can help realize the available missions. We are not alone - if you can find enemy contact our Regia Marina that can help us to destroy all enemy ships.

These are my assumptions, I have not seen this presentation to the press in Germany. Maybe our german friends tell us something more about it.
:salute:

[THE_MASK]

sure, no problem. but after studying the german document, i must admit, that its only a written version of the dynamic campaign trailer. so nothing new in here. just this pic is new.So you read the PDF then ? Its on the link on my post .

[IanC]

So what does it all mean compared to SHIII's campaign? Better, worse, just different? I can't get my neuron working at this time to figure it out. :88)

[THE_MASK]

So what does it all mean compared to SHIII's campaign? Better, worse, just different? I can't get my neuron working at this time to figure it out. :88)
Whaddaya mean , its only 7pm .

[Hitman]

It seems they are trying to offer something in the line of the well renown "Battle of Britain" aircraft simulator, where you had tow in one: A first person flight simulator, in which you could fly the airplane and kill enemies as well as drop bombs, and a dynamic campaign that developed as a RTS game in between, and that was influenced by your actions. More or less a simplified "Age of Empires" in which you could jump into the skin of one of your troops and engage the enemy perosnally.

It's an interesting concept, but I wonder how much will you be forced to make such decissions, which in real life were in the hands of the BdU, and not in the Kaleuns. I for one would prefer an option to simply be told to go and patrol there, with some freedom according to the tactical situation, rather than to play BdU and Kaleun at the same time, but I wellcome the new option. :up:

[IanC]

Whaddaya mean , its only 7pm .

:lol: Wow that's weird, feels more like 3am for some reason :yawn:

[IanC]

It seems they are trying to offer something in the line of the well renown "Battle of Britain" aircraft simulator, where you had tow in one: A first person flight simulator, in which you could fly the airplane and kill enemies as well as drop bombs, and a dynamic campaign that developed as a RTS game in between, and that was influenced by your actions. More or less a simplified "Age of Empires" in which you could jump into the skin of one of your troops and engage the enemy perosnally.

It's an interesting concept, but I wonder how much will you be forced to make such decissions, which in real life were in the hands of the BdU, and not in the Kaleuns. I for one would prefer an option to simply be told to go and patrol there, with some freedom according to the tactical situation, rather than to play BdU and Kaleun at the same time, but I wellcome the new option. :up:

I never played BoB1 but I wasn't too crazy about this concept in BoBII. I just wanted to shoot myself some messerschmitts, not make strategic decisions. I think in the later patchs they fixed this though. Almost for sure SH5 won't be going in that direction... right? Yes right.

[Mikhayl]

I never played BoB1 but I wasn't too crazy about this concept in BoBII. I just wanted to shoot myself some messerschmitts, not make strategic decisions. I think in the later patchs they fixed this though. Almost for sure SH5 won't be going in that direction... right? Yes right.

I hope so too, that all the elements visible on that map are only intel, not things you can control and move around.

Speculation: since the emphasis in SH5 is put on "being the captain", then I doubt there will be that RTS aspect since that would make you Dönitz, defeats the purpose.

[urfisch]

So what does it all mean compared to SHIII's campaign? Better, worse, just different? I can't get my neuron working at this time to figure it out. :88)

its simply complete different. no "free" campaign..., but a linear "semi dynamic" campaign. i guess, you can still sail around and sink your ships, but you have to accomplish the given missions, to reach forward. also to me it is not really clear, how it works. still there are many questions.

- whats the timeline, if you decide, not to follow the orders?

- does time simply force you to follow them? does it go forward, whatever you are doing?

- what about self edited campaign objectives? is it possible, to make new "dependence-linked-actions", new and own follow-up events? or is all sealed in concrete.

- what about dynamic events, beside the straight story line?

- what about extending the campaign to 45? if you decide to sail further on, is it just to sail around without any orders?

to me this concept seems to be very linear. its a row of events, that take place, and by following them, you can experience the "most important" turning points in the uboat war from 39-43. its like an interactive movie.

so, in a nut. the campaign concept differs completly from sh3. dont know, how to judge this...

[Reece]

After reading the pdf file I get the impression that SH5 will be in the Mediterranean only, no Atlantic or North Sea, explains why no rough seas!!:cry:can anyone confirm this?:-?

[urfisch]

AFAIK. nope. its set up in different parts. one part is the mediterranean.

[Mikhayl]

Reece, come on man, what's with the scary rumor windmill? It's no wonder people cringe, there's valid complaints but this?

The .pdf says:
"...several campaigns focusing on different theaters of operation."

"...these campaigns will try to recreate the historical setting and main scenarios which took place from the Baltic Sea to the American East coast, reaching as far as Madagascar island"

"The campaigns will feature over 160 ports."

etc, etc

[Letum]

I hope it isn't a case of Mickly Mouse meets Bdu.

[Reece]

@ Mikhayl: Yes I read it, I'm just paranoid!:88) haven't seen or heard anything about the Atlantic yet!!:oops: I'll be happy when some of the concerns on my list have been answered, don't you even wonder why none of the snapshots or videos show rough seas etc!:hmmm:

[Adriatico]

I am :
- 100% not interested in strategic decissions and plans... Just want to deal with my fuel management, crew, combat decisions...

- 100% interested in free patrol gameply... with excitement of planing my course, searching with unexpected events

- concerned about re-playability of SH5 with semi-linear (campaign) game, even more if there is "unlocking" of further levels

One of the best features of SH3 was freedom to choose year, home base and your patroling decisions.
Just hope there will be a free patroling gameply option...

Historical events and surroundig are fine... but historical fact is that most of time WW2 U-boats devoted to patroling and searching

Typical U-boat Kaleun wouldn't know anything on events at Tobruk, fuel resrves on Malta or allied activities at Newfoundland... except some bits and pieces from radio propaganda

[Laffertytig]

it sounds a lot like the old red storm rising campaign were your own results had an effect on the war which i personally found very enjoyable.

one half of me thinks that this could be the best SH campaign ever and the other half thinks otherwise.

roll on march:)

[Mikhayl]

LOL, ok. In that interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyS9X3Kggvo

"10 campaigns", "Artic convoys, Mediterranean, US East Coast", etc.

In Neal's interview they say that the campaign starts in September 1939. Mediterranean operations started in September 1941, US East coast operations started in December 1941 and the Arctic convoys started sailing in August 1941, so it's a given that there will be the "classic" campaign stuff in the North Sea and North Atlantic.

Regarding rough seas, maybe (most likely) it won't be as realistic as some people would like, but I'm sure there will be rough seas, can't see why not.

edit: regarding "unlocking" missions, I find that very unlikely. They said that the enemy reacts to your actions, not that you have to react to the enemy. If you go on patrol say around Malta and that you fail utterly and come back home 3 weeks later with 0 ship sunk, then you have influenced nothing and war goes on.
"unlocking" would mean that if you "fail" a given mission, you can't go on, you have to restart like in Supermario. Except that here the missions can last 4/5 real life hours, no way this would happen in SH5, give the devs some credit :)

[Letum]

It looks like the player will be able to cause Malta to surrender...

...dunno what to make of that.

[Seeadler]

These are my assumptions, I have not seen this presentation to the press in Germany. Maybe our german friends tell us something more about it.
The press event for the German gaming press is on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of next week in different cities, possibly after that we will read more about it online on their portals and in their magazines

[urfisch]

The press event for the German gaming press is on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of next week in different cities, possibly after that we will read more about it online on their portals and in their magazines

where you got this information from?

[rascal101]

ON a different post where I was asking for more detail abotu the campaign some one posted the following link:

http://static4.cdn.ubi.com/SH5dynamiccampaigndocinfojournalists_38220178171_8 901.pdf?e=1264263688&h=bdcc610ca760419fbc9d1f2c89396c3c


Right Click save as.... you know the drill

Wish I had seen this previously - I think it really does show the devs are trying to do something different with this and they may just pull it off -

I have not lost any of my fears re a random runnning campaign, but this has taken some thought - My only remaining worry is the replay value of the game - if the new dynamic campaign 'options' are too limited then the surprise and deduction factor might be lost

But for my money I will be watching this with considerable interest

By the way there are a number of theatres of operation, the example featured covers the Mediteranean, however the copy clearly states there are other theatres of operation

Looks good and with the graphics and the new interior life, this could be a real new direction

Guess we will have to wait and see

Regards to all and best wishes to SubSim Crew, Ubisoft and the developer team

Rascal

[Seeadler]

where you got this information from?
http://pressextranet.ubisoft.com/EMEA/DE/default.aspx
top right -> press tour information

[Adriatico]

I have not lost any of my fears re a random runnning campaign, but this has taken some thought - My only remaining worry is the replay value of the game - if the new dynamic campaign 'options' are too limited then the surprise and deduction factor might be lost


REPLAYABILITY made a legend of SH3... lasting for a years and still playable... just hope it is not traded for "historical frame"

[JScones]

@ Mikhayl: Yes I read it, I'm just paranoid!:88) haven't seen or heard anything about the Atlantic yet!!:oops: I'll be happy when some of the concerns on my list have been answered, don't you even wonder why none of the snapshots or videos show rough seas etc!:hmmm:
You just want to see me accused of spreading the rumour again, don't you Reece. :rotfl2:

[Reece]

You know! the Devs probably caused more harm than good feeding us small incomplete pieces of information,:hmmm: they should have said nothing at all, and the videos/pictures should have covered all aspects of the sim or an explanation of why some areas have not been shown! would keep paranoid worry warts like me just speculating!:yep:

[Takeda Shingen]

Merged four threads about the campaign into one. Let's try to keep the discussion all in one place.

The Management

[Hartmann]

Reece, come on man, what's with the scary rumor windmill? It's no wonder people cringe, there's valid complaints but this?

The .pdf says:
"...several campaigns focusing on different theaters of operation."

"...these campaigns will try to recreate the historical setting and main scenarios which took place from the Baltic Sea to the American East coast, reaching as far as Madagascar island"

"The campaigns will feature over 160 ports."

etc, etc

with different campaigns , if i´m playing the atlantic campaign , the other zones have units o there is only empty seas ?.

i´m afraid about of a cut in pieces u-boat simulator and limited freedom like in sh2. Also a story campaign can cause a huge dent in the replayablility

It looks like the player will be able to cause Malta to surrender...

...dunno what to make of that.

it could mean sunk some capital ships of a convoy like "ohio" tanker for example , or do enough damage to the convoys limiting allied supply.

but i think that malta not was the cause of a german defeat in the north of africa, it was thousand of kilometers away in the russian steppe, in a place called stalingrado, malta was important , but only one of the multiple factors of the defeat.

After reading the pdf file I get the impression that SH5 will be in the Mediterranean only, no Atlantic or North Sea, explains why no rough seas!!:cry:can anyone confirm this?:-?

well, until now there are only news about the medditerranean ,i think that it was a marginal scenario for u-boats compared with the atlantic, they said about other zones but no news until now.

perhaps they found this more espectacular for the new audience and marketing (more action and battleships)

I hope that Ubi give more info to the community about other scenarios of war if they want to sell this game

[THE_MASK]

It looks to me as if you can play exactly the same as sh3 if you want . Just go to a port and be given some orders . Just ignore the overall war scenario if you want but what you sink influences shipping etc . Though i may be wrong .

[PL_Andrev]

ON a different post where I was asking for more detail abotu the campaign some one posted the following link:

http://static4.cdn.ubi.com/SH5dynamiccampaigndocinfojournalists_38220178171_8 901.pdf?e=1264263688&h=bdcc610ca760419fbc9d1f2c89396c3c


Right Click save as.... you know the drill

Huh... I cannot download this file... could somebody download it and send me or put it on other location? I download it as as damaged file with 2kB size...

[Adriatico]

After reading the pdf file I get the impression that SH5 will be in the Mediterranean only, no Atlantic or North Sea, explains why no rough seas!!:cry:can anyone confirm this?:-?
As a simulator fan... I wish I haven't seen that PDF... Simulator - means simulating a reality (including historical)

What do we get here?
Single U-boat sinking two Royal Navy task-forces from Gibralatar and Alexandria ? In a trasparent waters of Mediterrane ?
Changing the war outcome ? Conquer Malta???... Whats next? To fly Spitfires in the morning and enjoy fish reastaurants in the evening?

What is this? SH5:Command and Conquer ? Call of Duty:Battle of Atlantic ? SH5:Total War ?

I just try to imagine Doenitz face - if he could see this PDF ?

Don't want to be a party-braker... but can't we just have a better simulator of U-boats seraching for convoys at Atlantic?

It's now clear to me - why we don't need a realistic periscope... i.e. why do we need a satelite picture of situation.

***
Maybe it should be even more detailed... I can't see what is being served for dinner at HMS Warspite :stare:

[Mikhayl]

Think positive. How many times did you sink an entire task force in SH3? Or an entire convoy?
I imagine that the action fan playing with 0% realism options will be able to sink a LOT of ships and might probably win the war. But if you play with 100% realism I doubt you can achieve such a thing and so you won't win the war, assuming the devs carefully balanced the system.

I'm with Sober on that one. I think that if you play with realistic settings, you will have a realistic influence on the war, which is close to nil except local effects like shipping or escorts redirection. But I may be wrong too, damn, March is so close yet so far :)

[Navarre]

Huh... I cannot download this file...

Looks like Ubisoft have taken the file from the news server, it was probably not intended for our eyes :D

[Adriatico]

Think positive. How many times did you sink an entire task force in SH3? Or an entire convoy?
I imagine that the action fan playing with 0% realism options will be able to sink a LOT of ships and might probably win the war. But if you play with 100% realism I doubt you can achieve such a thing and so you won't win the war, assuming the devs carefully balanced the system.

I'm with Sober on that one. I think that if you play with realistic settings, you will have a realistic influence on the war, which is close to nil except local effects like shipping or escorts redirection. But I may be wrong too, damn, March is so close yet so far :)
If I play 100% realism - i would stay clear away from any task force - especially in Mediterrane.

And... I do think positive: Kpt.Lehman must be reading this mockery... something tells me that we'll get simulator afterall
:03:

[TarJak]

Looks like Ubisoft have taken the file from the news server, it was probably not intended for our eyes :D
That's OK I've got a copy!:D

[Carotio]

Looks like Ubisoft have taken the file from the news server, it was probably not intended for our eyes :D

I didn't see this untill now. Did anyone save the pdf?
If so please upload it.

[TarJak]

Copy on filefront now: http://www.filefront.com/15412231/SH5dynamiccampaigndocinfojournalists_38220178171_8 901.pdf