Copenhagen summit in trouble

[SteamWake]

"Veering towards a farce"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/16/copenhagen-summit-miliband-farce-warning

[Carotio]

Somehow, there's something that I don't understand. Yes, they talk about a deadline, but I mean if they don't have a result in about 24 hours, then why not just postpone the deadline, until they reach an agreement, now that they all made the trouble to get to COP15 and then really do the effort to agree on something for now. Both developping countries as developped countries. We all live on this earth and thus we all have to do something. Whether it's a big effort or small depends entirely of the sizes of the countries, the sizes of the populations, the sizes of the industry and the available finances in the countries. I hope they make a deal which benefits us all or rather the planet. Some countries won't see the problems first hand, but a few others will see the effects very soon, if nothing is done. I'm talking about the small island states like the Maldives. And we all have to do something in our daily lives too.

[Oberon]

Veering?

I'd say it's got there, parked up, turned the ignition off and gone to get a parking ticket! :haha:

[Skybird]

Wasn't it set for that outcome from the very beginning on...?

Considering what goals were on the agenda at the start, Copenhagen is totally overestimated - even if it would have acchieved all objectives.

Or as a german critic had written: the summit is not about doing as much as is needed, but to do as little as possible, and selling that as a great acchievement at home.

Copenhagen means nothing.

[SteamWake]

Heres a good opinion piece. Pretty much sums it up for me.


When your attempt at recreating the Congress of Vienna with a third-rate cast of extras turns into a shambles, when the data with which you have tried to terrify the world is daily exposed as ever more phoney, when the blatant greed and self-interest of the participants has become obvious to all beholders, when those pesky polar bears just keep increasing and multiplying – what do you do?


http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100020279/copenhagen-climate-summit-most-important-paper-in-the-world-is-a-glorified-un-press-release/

[AVGWarhawk]

No worries...Hillary Clinton is willing to throw 8 billion dollars/year at the problem...right after Afghanistan is completely trouble free. :shifty:

[Snestorm]

No worries...Hillary Clinton is willing to throw 8 billion dollars/year at the problem...right after Afghanistan is completely trouble free. :shifty:

How nice of her to be so generiouse with YOUR money.

[AVGWarhawk]

How nice of her to be so generiouse with YOUR money.

Blowing smoke brother....we are broke for this type of activity.

[SteamWake]

The fact that these bozo's greeted Chavez with cheers and jubiliation tells me about all I need to know.

[Skybird]

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3388/3150633minimalts.jpg (http://img215.imageshack.us/i/3150633minimalts.jpg/)

German original by Der Tagesspiegel,
translated by me

[nikimcbee]

You guys have it all wrong, it's not about saving the plant, it's about transfering wealth to other parts of the planet.:shifty: Just look at the speakers and the offers. That's okay, I didn't really want my money anyway.

[Morts]

You guys have it all wrong, it's not about saving the plant, it's about transfering wealth to other parts of the planet.:shifty: Just look at the speakers and the offers. That's okay, I didn't really want my money anyway.
yeah....err...right.....:damn:

[AVGWarhawk]

yeah....err...right.....:damn:


It is. Clinton wants to send money to developing countries to help combat emissions and global warming.

[Morts]

It is. Clinton wants to send money to developing countries to help combat emissions and global warming.
aye, but thats not how Mcbee put it

[Snestorm]

aye, but thats not how Mcbee put it

Sure it is. He just added a touch of healthy sarcasm.

[Snestorm]

If Hillary is so eager to throw money at the problem, there is no need to P away USDs to the third world. An investment in these would be much wiser, and would give something back to USA. As a bonus it's already an international effort.

The roads are german. The mills are danish. The song is norwegian. The uploader is dutch.
As is easily seen, they aren't an eye-soar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue_IGRU-VME

Comments welcome.

[Jimbuna]

It is. Clinton wants to send money to developing countries to help combat emissions and global warming.

Oh yes...and I can see the leaders of them 'developing countries' not using a cent for their personal gratification :DL

[SteamWake]

Help me out with something.

I know Ms. Clinton made a vague promise that wont even take effect untill 2020 or whatever and also contingent upon cooperation by / with other nations. In short it will probably never happen. Which is fine with me but thats not what confuses me.

What confuses me is this.

Arent the big developed contrys those with huge emmissions like China and the US bear the brunt of the blame for global warming.

Why are we promising money to the undeveloped nations? Wouldent the money be better spent at the 'root' of the problem?

[Skybird]

USA is quoted with 20% and china with 21% of global CO2 emissions.

However, China is not as developed as America, but has 4 times as many people. Their per capita CO2 emissions are 4 times as low as that of the average American.

If China continues to develope its industry to american levels (per capita), its emissions would at least quadruple. They still would double (at least) their emissions if compared to the average German emissions level (per capita: half of the american mark).

Now consider nations that even have not come close to the industrialisation level of china, but are considered candidates for that and have huge populations. India. Indonesia. Brazil.

If these nations become as industrialised as the West, but don't do better than we do currently in CO2 emission cutting tehcnology, CO2 emissions on a global level would go up by several factors.

we are too many people on the world, and the living standard of the West under no circumstance could serve as an example of how all people on the globe could live and consume. we would live too excessively even if we were just 1 or 2 billion people. Consider there would be only contemporary europe and north America, with current industry and consummation levels, coming close to 1 billion in populationall in all, and all other continents would be empty of people. I think we still would erode our resources basis and erode our environment too much and would destroy our future in the long run.

Too excessive consummation levels in the West. Too many people globally. No matter how I turn things, I always come down to this coinclusion.

But all this is purely academic. what they now call a minimum consensus deal in Copenhagen is not worth to be mentioned. even the possible optimum that was tried to be achieved in the beginning would not have been anything valuable.

The issue is a serious one, and a threatening one. But unfortunately it has been adressed in unprofessional, hindering ways since years and decades - by lobbyistic politicians and economies as well as by science that performed very unprofessionally in presenting itself and its results. That means understatement as well as hysteric fear mongering. the official climate Tv spot of the conference for example imo is a total desaster, becasue it bypasses the intellect and directly appeals to sentiments - by that giving sceptics the ammo they need to load their gun. Somebody should get shot for having done this TV spot.

What's it about in the summary? Ressource consummation in the bfuture and emmissions in the future will grow, golobally, no matter wzat some nations do. Becasue the other nations will not stop to get their piece ofn the cake, too, and develoepe their industries, and the first world will become even more energy-consuming, no matter low power TV's and energy saving light bulbs. Because these things will serve as an argument why we could spend the saved energy on even more energy consuming gadgets. who wants to press citrus juice by hand (brrr, how primitive!) if there is an electric kitchen assistant with a motor available...?

Sometimes I think we need a Butler's Djihad. Let's see how many people figure out the reference here! :)

[Snestorm]

Help me out with something.

I know Ms. Clinton made a vague promise that wont even take effect untill 2020 or whatever and also contingent upon cooperation by / with other nations. In short it will probably never happen. Which is fine with me but thats not what confuses me.

What confuses me is this.

Arent the big developed contrys those with huge emmissions like China and the US bear the brunt of the blame for global warming.

Why are we promising money to the undeveloped nations? Wouldent the money be better spent at the 'root' of the problem?

That's exactly what I was trying to illustrate in post #16.
We seem to think alike on this subject.

[Snestorm]

Sometimes I think we need a Butler's Djihad. Let's see how many people figure out the reference here! :)

Couldn't find any reference to "Butler's Dijhad" in danish, english, norwegian, or swedish, and my comprehension abilities go no further.

Any chance of gleaming a hint?

[Sea Demon]

It is. Clinton wants to send money to developing countries to help combat emissions and global warming.

Clinton's a fool. The Eastern US is expecting 8"-14" of snow in many places this weekend, Las Cruces New Mexico has snow on the ground, and we just had a nice snowstorm here in sunny California a few days back where I live. And I was freezing my can off a couple of days ago.

Global Warming is a joke. A complete farce. It's not just from observation, and real time data....it's common sense. At what point do the people that carried the water for this hoax, give it up. Climategate e-mails were only one aspect that unraveled this horrendous lie. The rest comes from just opening your eyes, and listening to discredited frauds like Al Gore convey their versions of junk "science". The fact that they keep pushing the lie despite the overwhelming observation against it, plus the leaked e-mails shows there's more to it than just "emissions" and "climate concerns". The "science" community that keeps pushing this junk is the worst in the business, and it's obvious there is motive there other than truth.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Clinton's a fool. The Eastern US is expecting 8"-14" of snow in many places this weekend, Las Cruces New Mexico has snow on the ground, and we just had a nice snowstorm here in sunny California a few days back where I live. And I was freezing my can off a couple of days ago.

Global Warming is a joke. A complete farce. It's not just from observation, and real time data....it's common sense. At what point do the people that carried the water for this hoax, give it up. Climategate e-mails were only one aspect that unraveled this horrendous lie. The rest comes from just opening your eyes, and listening to discredited frauds like Al Gore convey their versions of junk "science". The fact that they keep pushing the lie despite the overwhelming observation against it, plus the leaked e-mails shows there's more to it than just "emissions" and "climate concerns". The "science" community that keeps pushing this junk is the worst in the business, and it's obvious there is motive there other than truth.

It's cold outside, therefore there's no global warming?:har::har::har:

[Sea Demon]

It's cold outside, therefore there's no global warming?:har::har::har:

No, that's not it. But the theories which espouse that increased percentages in CO2 output (ie man) is the direct driving factor in "increased warming" is total bunk. As continued output of CO2 has increased......and temperatures have fallen or remained static.....the theory is obviously flawed. That's merely one problem. And that's the hoax this "science" community has been pushing. The climategate e-mails helped many rational skeptics see the hoax for what it is......a total fraud.

[Skybird]

Couldn't find any reference to "Butler's Dijhad" in danish, english, norwegian, or swedish, and my comprehension abilities go no further.

Any chance of gleaming a hint?

Nebula Award 1965.

:D

[Snestorm]

Nebula Award 1965.

:D Bingo! Got it.
On this issue our views are quite paralel.

[antikristuseke]

No, that's not it. But the theories which espouse that increased percentages in CO2 output (ie man) is the direct driving factor in "increased warming" is total bunk. As continued output of CO2 has increased......and temperatures have fallen or remained static.....the theory is obviously flawed. That's merely one problem. And that's the hoax this "science" community has been pushing. The climategate e-mails helped many rational skeptics see the hoax for what it is......a total fraud.

Look at the scientific literature, read the emails and comprehend them and then speak again. You are so full of **** right now it is not even worth addressing as it has been done in the s called hoax emails tread already.

[Onkel Neal]

You are so full of **** right now it is not even worth addressing as it has been done in the s called hoax emails tread already.

Productive? No.

[antikristuseke]

Productive? No.

True, my bad, I just get so frustrated sometimes.

Sea Demon, my apologies, I could have worded that better.

[Sea Demon]

True, my bad, I just get so frustrated sometimes.

Sea Demon, my apologies, I could have worded that better.

No problem antikristuseke. I know it's an emotional topic. I take no offense, and understand that topics such as these generate strong feelings on both sides.

The thing about it here is we can only look at the evidence. We can only look at real time data and trended data. And we can only look at the theories that are derived using these data sets. And the reason I think this "Global Warming" issue is unraveling like it is is because people are truly looking at things like the e-mails. And what were contained therein. I read those e-mails, and comprehend them well. People are also looking at the theories proposed from weather data, they see different results in real time data, and draw conclusions that are much different from those who are pushing "Man made Global Warming". The one thing that stands out is the increased concentration of CO2 (while still a drop in the bucket - less than 3% of 3% of the total concentration of atmospheric gases) and the static or falling global temperatures. Real world observation in real time is what's discrediting these scientists and their unwillingness to change their models or thinking.

You know, Al Gore just said he wants US legislation to be done on the 40th Anniversary of Earth Day this coming year. The problem is, people at the original Earth day were predicting an imminent "ice age". They were wrong then....they're wrong now. And in that regard, historical precedent makes skepticism a prudent course of action regarding the "warming movement". Especially considering what they're asking us to do to our industries. Also, in light of the strong negative emotions from the "global warming" movement, I have to ask what their objectives are. The current generated data doesn't exactly point to doom.

[antikristuseke]

Please cite figures and sources for falling or static temperatures. Then cite sources for imminent ice age from scientific literature. Global cooling due to particulates in the atmosphere has never been more than just a footnote in the history of climate research which was blown out of proportion by popular media. Allways look to scientific literature for information about science, most of the time popular media gets scientific reporting horribly wrong, both pro and against global warming, or on any other topic for that mater.

Then please stop paying attention to asshats like Gore, he does not represent the position of scientists, hell, he misrepresents science as much as that asshat Limbaugh. Both of them, and others like them, could use a good cup of shut the **** up and a rethoric liposuction.

[Sea Demon]

Please cite figures and sources for falling or static temperatures. Then cite sources for imminent ice age from scientific literature. Global cooling due to particulates in the atmosphere has never been more than just a footnote in the history of climate research which was blown out of proportion by popular media.................

http://images.dailytech.com/nimage/7390_large_hadcrut.jpg

From Hadley Center. Right from the heart of the Eurozone. Clearly shows static and falling temperatures as of recently. From a peak of 1998. And they have many scientists there who are true believers despite their own data. Hadley notes that not only they, but NASA, GISS, UAH, and RSS have all updated their data from 2008, and it clearly shows drops in temperatures over time. Now please understand......Even with increased percentages of CO2. You know...the man made stuff we're told to fear.

What I think you're looking for is some "peer reviewed" "science" from sources that actively push "global warming" and the "remedies" to the so-called "problem". Just note, I don't trust those sources as they have been compromised as not credible. They use modeling and data that never change despite variables in atmospheric conditions.

I do agree that the global warming movement accelerated their own demise of credibility by putting the face of Al Gore on it. But these people cannot hide from what's happening climate wise in conjunction with what their theories have been based upon. The premise being that the more CO2 man emits...the hotter we get. Isn't true. Percentages matter. The data doesn't support the warming proponents no matter how many "peer reviews" the man made scientific community gives itself. Peer reviewed science in climatology has been destroyed by their own actions. Even if Al Gore didn't interject on their behalf, observational real time data, and more medium to long range trended data would eventually catch up with them.

On another note, this doesn't help gain support for man made global warming either, even though it's not an argument I use to support my own thoughts above....but it is what it is.....

http://www.breitbart.tv/flag-waving-communists-socialists-march-in-copenhagen-to-stop-global-warming/

This nutty faction of the "global warming movement" is getting a whole lot easier to unmask as time goes on.

Also, what do you think of this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8419578.stm

Ultimately a waste of time. Why even bother?

[Ships-R-Us]

Below is a quote from SteamWake.......I believe he nailed it correctly
Someday I may learn how to attach quotes...

PS: I appologize for the large signature and waste of the sites bandwidth. I posted a thread in General topics requesting assistance.



What confuses me is this.

Arent the big developed contrys those with huge emmissions like China and the US bear the brunt of the blame for global warming.

Why are we promising money to the undeveloped nations? Wouldent the money be better spent at the 'root' of the problem?

[Sea Demon]

Below is a quote from SteamWake.......I believe he nailed it correctly
Someday I may learn how to attach quotes...

What confuses me is this.

Arent the big developed contrys those with huge emmissions like China and the US bear the brunt of the blame for global warming.

Why are we promising money to the undeveloped nations? Wouldent the money be better spent at the 'root' of the problem?

Reference the video above showing the protesters at Copenhagen, and ask any of the "Workers of the World" the question on this redistributive aspect of any climate deal. Like I've said before, much of what the "global warming" movement does and says makes little sense. And many global warming advocate big wigs are totally hypocritical. Many of them like Gore, Prince Charles and others like to countdown to climate disaster, yet have no problem generating as much CO2 as they possibly can with each waking hour of their lives. All while telling everyone else to cut their emissions. Many global warming proponents (average joe's) refuse to see any of this regrettably.

[Dowly]

@Shipsrus

Jebus! How about scaling down that sig abit? :o

[Happy Times]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Ice_Age_Temperature.png

This is the scale we should focus when talking about the climate.

I think there is something perverse and narcistic features in the climate discussion, concerning mans abilities to control it.

[Skybird]

If this german article

http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article5581658/US-Praesident-Obama-stuerzt-vom-Klima-Gipfel.html?print=yes#reqdrucken

describes it correctly, then Obama has allowed himself a real serious slip in behavior and has lost a lot of face, especially regarding the Chinese for whom behavior and face simply is seen as a sign for culture and education.

As one reader comment in the comments section: jumped like a tiger, landed like a bedside rug.

The verbal magician got deglorified a bit more.

[Onkel Neal]

True, my bad, I just get so frustrated sometimes.

Sea Demon, my apologies, I could have worded that better.

Thanks, man :salute:

[Snestorm]

How interesting that the world's leaders gather in Danmark to discuss global warming just as Danmark is being hit with RECORD LOW TEMPERATURES.:

http://tv2.nyhedsbrev.peytz.dk/g.php?1003395703-1005593357-45d1761-http%3A%2F%2Fnyhederne.tv2.dk%2Farticle.php%2Fid%2 d27260177.html

[NeonSamurai]

Not very surprising, the sun's output is down below average right now, which is why global warming seems to have leveled off, for the moment anyhow.