Should SH5 more or less fully simulate the acoustic environment

[difool2]

...to a detail approaching that of Dangerous Waters? We should have thermals, I think that's a given, but should it simulate the various sound speed profiles (most notably convergence zones, which in the middle of the Atlantic would allow for brief detection of enemies at long ranges)? Just because nobody back then was aware of such things doesn't mean they didn't exist and didn't affect how various units could detect, or not detect, each other. Thoughts?

[Sag75]

Nice thoughts, but the issue is you can't measure them! you don't have BT buoys on your U-boot and, as far I know at this moment I'm writing, germans were not interested in monitoring thermals probably because they were thinking not so much affecting the play..

So.. you are in your WW2 environment where almost of the variables are unknown due to the early technology.. and also the sound propagation knowledge was minor at that time. In other terms, why Devs should add a large mathematical system for sound propagation if it can't be experienced properly by the player due to lack of computers/indicators/proper sensors?

[JScones]

We should have thermals, I think that's a given, but should it simulate the various sound speed profiles (most notably convergence zones, which in the middle of the Atlantic would allow for brief detection of enemies at long ranges)? Just because nobody back then was aware of such things doesn't mean they didn't exist and didn't affect how various units could detect, or not detect, each other. Thoughts?
I agree. The idea that it wasn't measured by the Germans therefore doesn't exist is ludicrous. The effects are still real, even if not understood. I'm sure there were many "wtf just happened then?" type moments that couldn't be explained by the crew, yet were simply a result of thermals or other effects. Indeed, wouldn't such "known unknowns" add a level of uncertainty for the U-boat Kaleun? At least then the Med wouldn't "act" the same as the Atlantic wouldn't "act" the same as the Pacific.

Besides, Topp (or one U-boat commander) confirmed in an interview a while ago that the Germans did measure salinity and temperature. They may not have completely understood the results, but they still knew it had some effect...

[Leif...]

Let us at least have sound delayed explosions, if I see an explosion far away I don't want to hear the sound at the same time.

[mookiemookie]

Let us at least have sound delayed explosions, if I see an explosion far away I don't want to hear the sound at the same time.

SH4 included this. They probably will keep it as an option in 5.

[Letum]

[...]the Germans did measure salinity and temperature. They may not have completely understood the results, but they still knew it had some effect...


I would imagine they measured it because of it's significant effect on
dive times and buoyancy, rather than acoustic properties.

[TarJak]

Agree, the effect exists in RL therefore should be modelled in game regardless of the Kaleun's knowledge or understanding of the effect.

[GoldenRivet]

Let us at least have sound delayed explosions, if I see an explosion far away I don't want to hear the sound at the same time.

Not only that... but the thunderous explosion you might hear up close should only be a loud "thump" from a long distance away

[Letum]

Not only that... but the thunderous explosion you might hear up close should only be a loud "thump" from a long distance away

Not only that, you should hear the sound hit your boat through the water
a few moments before the quieter sound arrives by air.

Depth charges and torpedoes should echo in shallow water as well.

[Takeda Shingen]

I agree. The idea that it wasn't measured by the Germans therefore doesn't exist is ludicrous. The effects are still real, even if not understood. I'm sure there were many "wtf just happened then?" type moments that couldn't be explained by the crew, yet were simply a result of thermals or other effects. Indeed, wouldn't such "known unknowns" add a level of uncertainty for the U-boat Kaleun? At least then the Med wouldn't "act" the same as the Atlantic wouldn't "act" the same as the Pacific.

Besides, Topp (or one U-boat commander) confirmed in an interview a while ago that the Germans did measure salinity and temperature. They may not have completely understood the results, but they still knew it had some effect...

x2. That is was not understood did not preclude its effects. Sea state, thermocline layer and strength and salinity should all vary my sonar performance.

[karamazovnew]

x2. That is was not understood did not preclude its effects. Sea state, thermocline layer and strength and salinity should all vary my sonar performance.

Those have already been included in SH3 and especially SH4. But the devs forgot to make it variable and we got stuck with water so bad that the poor Sonar Guy can't hear a thing :haha:

[Sailor Steve]

Not only that, you should hear the sound hit your boat through the water
a few moments before the quieter sound arrives by air.
If you're on the bridge you won't hear the underwater sound. If you're inside the boat you won't hear the airborne sound.

[GoldenRivet]

At a minimum, to be taken very seriously, SH5 should include:

1. Baffles for all ship classes and types

2. Dynamic thermal layers that will vary not only mission to mission, but day to day as well

3. Depth Charge blinding for a reasonable period of time not only for the AI escorts but the players boat as well (and any other sonar equipped vehicle)

4. Detectable Echolot, and Sonar pings emitted from the player boat.

5. Surface clutter which would mask shallow running boats in very rough seas to some degree.

6. Other ship sounds should camouflage the sub's sound signature to some extent or another.

[Tomi_099]

At a minimum, to be taken very seriously, SH5 should include:

1. Baffles for all ship classes and types

2. Dynamic thermal layers that will vary not only mission to mission, but day to day as well

3. Depth Charge blinding for a reasonable period of time not only for the AI escorts but the players boat as well (and any other sonar equipped vehicle)

4. Detectable Echolot, and Sonar pings emitted from the player boat.

5. Surface clutter which would mask shallow running boats in very rough seas to some degree.

6. Other ship sounds should camouflage the sub's sound signature to some extent or another.

---------------------------


Well, I wish the decks of submarines last for a bit because that would
also another cause of the boats look like, I mean interesting.!
for example! VIIC

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2182/c12cg.jpg
.


.
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2909/c11a.jpg
.



.
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/9884/c3a.jpg
.




.
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4302/30346435.jpg




--------------------
The deck does not look impressive from VIIC/41 UBIS demo!
The Ubi I think it will improve it!

.
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8910/34911601.jpg




.


http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4476/66395434.jpg
.





.
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8887/14531180.jpg

[PL_Andrev]

2. Dynamic thermal layers that will vary not only mission to mission, but day to day as well

Good idea, but Germans didn't have method to detect thermal layers.
Of course thermal layers should be implemented on different depth depending from climatic zones / sea currents.
But should be not detectable, of course.

The questions is how the thermal layers work. Real phisics or 'standard' signals damping like in SH4.

[Red Heat]

This is images from the sh5!?
Dont looks very impressive to me...i mean this is it!? :o
Looks like a skin from the sh4...

[karamazovnew]

This is images from the sh5!?
Dont looks very impressive to me...i mean this is it!? :o
Looks like a skin from the sh4...

No those are shots from SH3 (first ones) and SH4. And they are a skin.

[Takeda Shingen]

Those have already been included in SH3 and especially SH4. But the devs forgot to make it variable and we got stuck with water so bad that the poor Sonar Guy can't hear a thing :haha:

No. SHIV had a standard thermocline signal decay. In truth, the strength of the thermocline varies from day to day and season to season based on a number of factors. In effect, going deep should, at times, render me invisible and, at other times, do absolutey nothing to mask my signature.

[sabretwo]

Thermal layers, detectable active sonar pings, and depth charge noise disruption are a definate must!

[karamazovnew]

No. SHIV had a standard thermocline signal decay. In truth, the strength of the thermocline varies from day to day and season to season based on a number of factors. In effect, going deep should, at times, render me invisible and, at other times, do absolutey nothing to mask my signature.

I knew that. I was talking about MY Sonar Guy who can't hear a thing.:wah:

[LukeFF]

Another point about sonar/sound conditions is that all the different hydrophone units in use had varying degrees of bearing accuracy. With the GHG units, for instance, bearing accuracy degraded greatly around the bow area. That was the big improvement of the Balkongerat over GHG: accurate bearings could be obtained in a wider arc. The current modeling of GHG in SH4, where there is just a 20-degree dead zone around the bow, just isn't all that accurate. Bearings with GHG in this area should be obtainable, just highly inaccurate.

[Letum]

If you're on the bridge you won't hear the underwater sound. If you're inside the boat you won't hear the airborne sound.


I'm not so sure your right, at least when on the bridge.
When I have seen explosions at the local stone mine I have been able to
hear the sound in the ground produce a sound in the air before the louder
sound that just went through the air reaches me.

The sound goes through the earth faster than the speed of sound, and out
of the earth at the surface. At the same time the sound travels through the
air only. I would imagine the same thing happens with water. No?

[Sailor Steve]

I've been at our local copper mine, and when they're blasting at the bottom I could certainly feel the ground shake at the visitor's center on the rim, which is more than a mile away, well before I heard it through the air. I don't recall hearing anything through the ground, but it's been many years and I could have forgotten.

I could be wrong about the bridge of the submarine as well, but I don't think so. At least I'd like not to think so.:D

You could be right - more research needed.