To install or not to install.....

[XabbaRus]

That be the question.

Looking to go back to sub hunting but I don't know wheterh to install DW or SC with SCX.

In some ways ie, the AI I found DW to be a step backward but with Dr Sids subsim gone quiet I'm looking at hitting the Kilo again.

If I do go back what mod should I install?

[goldorak]

Why don't you install DWX ? Its SCX with all the goodies of DW.
Really at this stage, there is no reason whatsoever to go back to Sub Command.
Whatever vantage SCX had over DW/DW Lwami just isn't there against DWX.

[XabbaRus]

I think I might just go with DW plus LWAMI.

I've been following the RA thread on and off but it seems like there are still a few bugs to work out.

Kudos to them but have they sorted the interfaces for the new playables yet?

[goldorak]

I think I might just go with DW plus LWAMI.

I've been following the RA thread on and off but it seems like there are still a few bugs to work out.

Kudos to them but have they sorted the interfaces for the new playables yet?


Trying out DWX doesn't cost you anything, except maybe 10-15 minutes of your time and maybe the shock that you will like it.
No mod is perfect, but even as it is DWX is already superior to Lwami and SCX.

Now if you don't want anything to do with DWX because of a moral standing, its fine its your choice. But frankly, SCS has ditched the community, DW for all intents and purposes is dead in the water (SCS hasn't even managed to give us a replay viewer). I mean SCS had known about DWX for quite some time, they even wrote in this forum that modding with all its consequences (and adding new playables) was alright.
So if they don't care, why do you ? :hmmm:
Just enjoy the mod (and try out the lada, virginia, type 212 and harushio :D ) you'll see how giant a step it is against Lwami.

[NFunky]

I tried DWX for quite some time and, while I found the new units and detection curves a lot of fun, the bugs with the AI sort of killed it for me. AI subs don't do a good job of counterfiring though their evasion is not that bad, but surface ships, especially AEGIS ships, are quite broken as far as AAW goes.

[Blacklight]

NFunky I tried DWX for quite some time and, while I found the new units and detection curves a lot of fun, the bugs with the AI sort of killed it for me. AI subs don't do a good job of counterfiring though their evasion is not that bad, but surface ships, especially AEGIS ships, are quite broken as far as AAW goes.

Yeah. Same feeling here. My preference is definitely LWAMI, but DWX definitely shows a LOT of potential. The new units and driveables are fun, but it's still got a bit of a ways to go in the AI department. I'm probably going to wait for the next version of DWX before I give it a shot again.

[XabbaRus]

FFS goldorak it is nothing to do with moral standing it is to do whether it is worth it. I still read the DW forums and it seems people are still having problems with it.

I understand that due to underlying code ships such as the Udaloy are essentially an OHP.

That and it seems issues with the AI.

[goldorak]

FFS goldorak it is nothing to do with moral standing it is to do whether it is worth it. I still read the DW forums and it seems people are still having problems with it.

I understand that due to underlying code ships such as the Udaloy are essentially an OHP.


Yes in this version the Udaloy is reminiscent of the OHP, but in the next version for instance the cannon will fire in the correct angle (which is different from that of the OHP).


That and it seems issues with the AI.

AI with the patches is quite agressive, although in the next version it will be much much more agressive.
In any case, there are over 30 playable units, if the Udaloy is not to your taste, try the diesel electrics, or the Virginia, or Sturgeons, or the Typhoons. The Helix is nothing to sneer at, as the ASW Tupolev.
The database has had a complete rehaul, and in mission design you can use objects that just aren't there in Lwami. For instance doing a recue mission of sub with an emergency beacon.
Even from a weapons perspective, the amount of programmability in the settings blows out of the water Lwami and Alfa Tau.

[Castout]

I second Goldorak. DWX is the mod to go after :yeah:

[Mau]

Talking about those patches, would it be possible to know which ones are needed and where to find those ( I just want to make sure I will take the right ones).

What about AEGIS ships in RA. I heard it is pretty bad. In the stock and LWAMI they are not so agressive (I think they make them better actually but I am not sure (salvo..). Hopefully it is not that bad in RA. I mean subs are not everything....ha ha

[Castout]

AAW for the allies ships are not that good in DWX.

But you don't get to play an AEGIS cruiser in DW afterall so why bother much?
I'm sure the upcoming patch will try to fix that.

DW is about sub and ASW it's not meant to be played as a task force simulation. Ha ha. Try fleet command for that. DW is really about playing sub and hunting for sub basically. That's the very reason they don't provide anything larger than FFG and the helo and P3 asides from the subs. DW predecessor SC was even solely about sub and there was no surface and air ASW playable.

[Mau]

Yeah but what about scenarios involving SSGN against Task group.
You need that kind of umbrella (even though you are not controlling them)
ASW means that you need to defend against AAW.
If you cannot then you miss the boat...
We are talking an ASW simulation in a modern warfare.

But I want to say many thanks to the developer of RA!
Well done.

[Castout]

Sure take the 688i launch Tomahawk anti ship missiles at Russian Task force lol you can see how effective their AAW is.

:O:

I don't get it too when they numb down US forces AAW

[goldorak]

The problem of AA screen for allied units is certainly there and has to be corrected in the next iteration. Just because you don't get to play an Arleigh Burke or Ticonderoga doesn't mean the AA screen of a task force has to be non existant. This is further compounded by the fact that RUSSIAN task forces have an AA screen worthy of this name.
So yes there is definitely an oversight or bias in the mod which has to be taken care of in the next version.

[XabbaRus]

I'm going to say something controversial here. I think the reason why the US units AAW is dumbed down is because the mod is made by Russian modders.

I've been around a few Russian language forums that discuss military matters and the conclusion I have come to is that they do not believe the US systems to be superior to their own.

However you will find that in the English speaking world we have strategypage which is almost as bad.

[goldorak]

I'm going to say something controversial here. I think the reason why the US units AAW is dumbed down is because the mod is made by Russian modders.

I've been around a few Russian language forums that discuss military matters and the conclusion I have come to is that they do not believe the US systems to be superior to their own.

However you will find that in the English speaking world we have strategypage which is almost as bad.

No, I don't think the mod favours the russian units in any way. There are oversights that can be corrected, and since the database is going to be open in the future people will adjust to their liking the values (and maybe in the process destory the playability of the mod but thats another question).
Take for instance the subrocs, in DWX they are quite inoffensive. You can't base your strategy on launching subrocs and bet on sinking a sub (not only because you have to be precise, but also because the damage is very small compared to torpedos). Your primary ASW weapon is the torpedo, and then as a last resort tactics subrocs. As it should be.

Xabbarus, believe me I have had experience with Alfa Tau over more than one year and I can tell you that each game on the russian side is always reduced to launching several subrocs and waiting for the hit because 1 asroc hit = 100% damage even to enormous subs.
AT is impossibly imbalanced, much much worse than DWX ever was.
Each mission (and I'm talking about missions with 10 players on average) is always reduced to an subroc fest.
This is no way to play a game, the players not once launched torpedos because the subrocs are a god weapon in AT.

Now, since the modders are russian they use russian sources. For instance, in the case of the Alfa eveyone was shouting that it should have had an operating depth of 800 meters or so, just because US estimates said so. Estimates can be + or -, and in Norman Polmar's Cold War Submarines, many times american sources said that they overestimated russian capabilities making them appear more deadly than they actually were.
I think maybe the same thing happens from the russian side.
Back to the Alfa, the modders sent me a russian pubblication (a book published in russia and entirely devoted to the Alfa (a pity it is not translated in english :( ) and the tables clearly stated that the Alfa never even had a normal operating depth of 800 meters. But still, people believe in the "myth of the Alfa" and so think the modders are just picking figures out of their asses (pardon the expression).

[XabbaRus]

I know all about the Alfa.

I was just saying my opinion as one country set usually over or underestimates another countries capabilities.
.

I think I will wait until a later build and keep an eye on the discussion.

[Castout]

I'm going to say something controversial here. I think the reason why the US units AAW is dumbed down is because the mod is made by Russian modders.

I've been around a few Russian language forums that discuss military matters and the conclusion I have come to is that they do not believe the US systems to be superior to their own.

However you will find that in the English speaking world we have strategypage which is almost as bad.

That is not controversial to me :DL. It's just facts.

[XabbaRus]

Goldorak can you tell me the name of the Alfa book the Russian guys gave you.

I might get my inlaws to find it.

Cheers.

[Molon Labe]

I'm going to say something controversial here. I think the reason why the US units AAW is dumbed down is because the mod is made by Russian modders.

I've been around a few Russian language forums that discuss military matters and the conclusion I have come to is that they do not believe the US systems to be superior to their own.

However you will find that in the English speaking world we have strategypage which is almost as bad.

Just throwing this out there...

In stock SC and DW, the Russian AAW is superior to US, including AEGIS ships.

[Castout]

Oh really??:hmmm:

[Pillar]

Fascinating. What evidence is there that, in reality, the Russian AAW systems were superior to the AEGIS system?

[Castout]

Well the Soviet deployed the first Anti ballistic missile system during the cold war :DL. Take it easy Pillar I think after all the complaints the modders will try to improve US Aegis system. I certainly hope so.

[dd149]

The modders have already announced that the Aegis system behavior will be improved. They say it is already implemented and will be released in version 1.1

[dd149]

The Modders have announced that AA systems of US ships have been improved, the new release (1.1) will include this change.

[Molon Labe]

Fascinating. What evidence is there that, in reality, the Russian AAW systems were superior to the AEGIS system?

In terms of the AEGIS fire control system, I don't think there is any. Most Russian SAM systems are capable or engaging only 1 or 2 targets simultaneously--and that includes the SA-15. Kinematically, though, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Grumble or Gauntlet is superior to the SM-2.

The reason for Russian AAW being superior in stock DW and SC had nothing to do with RL, it was just that the US AEGIS ships only had two launcher entities (the VLSs) which could only engage one target at a time and at a range limited to 10nm. The Russians tended to have multiple SAM systems and multiple launcher entities for each system, so they could get a lot more missiles in the air at multiple targets a lot more quickly.

[Pillar]

Take it easy Pillar? I was just curious, sheesh! :)

Thanks for the info ML.