food and supplies while on patrol in sh5?

[Trool323]

It's probably allready been mentioned but food and supplies while on patrol needs to be coded for SH5. No subsim since Sub Battle Simulator on dos has done that as far as I know. In sh3 and sh4 you can go on and on 6 months or more while on patrol and never get hungry..lol..:hmmm:

[mookiemookie]

Will more elements limit the max duration of your patrol in SH5? (ex: food, water, medical supplies, crew morale, crew wanting to return home after a long period etc)

In SH5, crew morale is the deciding factor; the longer you stay on patrol, the more affected the crew is, and the less you are able to demand that “extra mile” from them. The morale system takes into account many modifiers that represent factors such as the “longing for home”, exhaustion, lack of food, while we chose not to bother the player, the U-Boat captain, with mundane tasks such as managing the food inventory.


I agree with the devs on this one. I'm a captain. Don't bother me with food supply management garbage. That's the quartermaster/navigator's job.

[oscar19681]

I agree with the devs on this one. I'm a captain. Don't bother me with food supply management garbage. That's the quartermaster/navigator's job.

maybe i dont want to be bothered with the food managment but i do wish to know when my crew is starving thus lowering the morale and the effectiveniss of the crew mow dont i

[kptn_kaiserhof]

it would be another element for the mod community to play with

[mookiemookie]

maybe i dont want to be bothered with the food managment but i do wish to know when my crew is starving thus lowering the morale and the effectiveniss of the crew mow dont i

Then it appears they've addressed exactly that by having crew morale decrease as time spent on patrol increases.

[Jimbuna]

How about something visual akin to what DivingDuck has created for his open hatch mod.......the food could be closely aligned to fuel consumption and disappear bit by bit, therefore giving the impression it has been eaten.

[Webster]

How about something visual akin to what DivingDuck has created for his open hatch mod.......the food could be closely aligned to fuel consumption and disappear bit by bit, therefore giving the impression it has been eaten.


no way, i dont want to read a year long thread on how the bananas are curved the wrong way or the grapefruit shouldnt be that color.

realism is nice but i dont want to see the toilet paper in the head either even if it should be seen in real life ;)

[mookiemookie]

no way, i dont want to read a year long thread on how the bananas are curved the wrong way or the grapefruit shouldnt be that color.

realism is nice but i dont want to see the toilet paper in the head either even if it should be seen in real life ;)

Exactly. Getting bogged down in these nitpicky little details doesn't do anything to make a better game. Like Mihai said in another thread - it sounds like people don't want a U-boat sim, they want a WORLD sim. People need to realize that developer time is a limited resource. Programming an intricate and detailed food consumption model is just insignificant and a total waste - it does absolutely nothing for the focus of the game. We're seeing comments come from the dev team that they may not even have time to implement big picture strategy aspects like wolfpacks that directly impact the game play experience, and people are whining about wanting food supplies modelled?!

I'm sorry if this is coming off like a rant, but I guess it is. The game is about U-boat combat. Not food supply management. If you want a babysitting or cooking sim, go pick up Cooking Mama or The Sims. I want a WW2 U-boat combat sim. The bananas and hams hanging in the control room in SH3 were as much of a food simulator as I care to see.

[JScones]

Exactly. Getting bogged down in these nitpicky little details doesn't do anything to make a better game. Like Mihai said in another thread - it sounds like people don't want a U-boat sim, they want a WORLD sim. People need to realize that developer time is a limited resource. Programming an intricate and detailed food consumption model is just insignificant and a total waste - it does absolutely nothing for the focus of the game. We're seeing comments come from the dev team that they may not even have time to implement big picture strategy aspects like wolfpacks that directly impact the game play experience, and people are whining about wanting food supplies modelled?!

I'm sorry if this is coming off like a rant, but I guess it is. The game is about U-boat combat. Not food supply management. If you want a babysitting or cooking sim, go pick up Cooking Mama or The Sims. I want a WW2 U-boat combat sim. The bananas and hams hanging in the control room in SH3 were as much of a food simulator as I care to see.
A more polite version of what I'm thinking. :up:

[THE_MASK]

Fuel does the same thing .

[Ducimus]

Personally, i think there should be something along the lines of
"Provisions".

No micromanagement requried at all. Would work just like fuel. Fact is a WW2 submarine left port with XX amount of days worth of provisions. In game terms this could be implemented like a H.I read out or fuel gauge..

"Provisions left: 45 days"

Now thinking back to my SH3 days, most people doing AN grids in a type 7 could care less, but the instant you start doing long range patrols in a type 9, this SHOULD be a factor. Especially if your just sitting there with the engines off, waiting on a known convoy route. To me, this does more for immersion, then spiffy graphics. It forces you to make decisions rather then idle your time away. But i degress, compared to some folks, im probably a rivet counting nerd, as id prefer to be able to run my Diesal engines selectively and independantly, or control how many degrees i put on the dive planes. Isn't that what a submarine simulation was supposed to be about?

[Snestorm]

For the most part I side with mookiemookie. I don't want the devs wasting vauable time on overly complex, knitpicking, small stuff but, Ducimus makes some valid poimts.

Aprox. quote, "Remaining Provisions: 45 days", is not a bad idé. It would certainly limit the amount of time one could spend almost continualy submerged for bad weather and the like.
It sounds like a simple thing to add but, I'm neither a programmer nor developer, nor do I know how much time would have to be spent on historical research.

I think we're probably all guilty of taking, what BDU would consider, too long in getting to our patrol grids, at least on some patrols. A possible workaround solution would be to include a time and date to arrive on station. Being tardy costs renown, big time.

The devs seem to be taking our interests into consideration, and implementing whats feasable. I think they're not going to disappoint us. Actualy, I think their knowledge base has expanded to where they can implement the affects of dwindeling provisions without having to bog us down with all the details, which suits me fine.

[JScones]

IMHO as soon as the devs start considering incorporating provisions, they'd have to consider the fact that in RL Kaleuns did, from time-to-time, raid attacked merchants of livestock and other foodstuffs, thus increasing their provisions. Without incorporating this aspect as well, then any attempt at modelling provisions will just be superficial, incomplete and useless.

Having said that though, a "provisions left" indication might be an acceptable compromise, as long as hitting 0 had no impact on my crew, unless I also had a way of increasing provisions whilst at sea.

But again, I'd rather see fully implemented game-play features over half attempts at the peripheries.

[cappy70]

I know,I know, I copied and paste from another posting:D, but I thought it would fit in here too regarding this issue and my point of view regarding micromanagement and ev. problems that might arise with that:

""Well,,during a time when I was doing quality/patch testing for a space sim that made it fine in sales, this question came up about the realism in the spacship/mothership. Somebody asked about how to have people walking around and doing their daily routines on the ship and walk around.
Of course this was some CPU generation back, but it was a balance of what would happen when all these 500 little guys started to move around inside the ship:D and do their things and of course the CPU is working on this, overtime,:timeout: and smooth this out with all the rest going on the screen.
I think the answer from one of the programmers showed this: ",,the only thing I have to do is a game within the game".As I said this was some CPU generation back, but I think that "moving" realism, i.e. smart interaction a la NPC action that one could see now and then in Oblivion is possible,( like when I did a break in Oblivion and the man missed hitting me and hit the woman instead and she killed the man while I was watching was impressive sponatanious AI for a game, ) but with a price down the road....that you need a real beefy system for example.
What I'm referring to here is the level of AI in Wolfpacks and interaction and belive it, I want Wolfpacks too..no doubt.
...and I do agree with Sailor Steve:salute: ""

[SteamWake]

i.e. smart interaction a la NPC action that one could see now and then in Oblivion is possible


I saw a mudcrab the other day :doh:

[cappy70]

Out of topic.:woot:
I throwed down books on the floor once, (just to test since there were so much hype about the NPC A.I. in that game,) and a guard walked up to the books, stopped and looked at them and picked them up.
One could trigger events in there that was not pre-programmed, actions that one would see once maybe and never again.
Mudcrabs are mudcrabs.............:)

[BlueFlames]

I throwed down books on the floor once, (just to test since there were so much hype about the NPC A.I. in that game,) and a guard walked up to the books, stopped and looked at them and picked them up.

I pushed some books off a shelf once, and the guards walked up and mercilessly beat my ass for "stealing" them. On another occasion, I used the townfolk as human shields, causing the guards to turn on each other, since they were "assaulting" and "murdering" the citizens (and eventually themselves). Let's not forget that, even as the hero of the land, the arena champion, the local archmage, and whatever other title(s) you acquire, if you mouse-over an item in the store, just to see what it is, you're issued a stern warning from the shopkeeper and/or his guard, because clearly, petty thievery is your game. Though the pre-release hype made it sound pretty ambitious, Oblivion's AI was stone-dead stupid.

To the point of provisions, though, it was my understanding that U-Boats tended to be overstocked, even late in the war. If Ubisoft has the time and inclination to implement provisions and rationing and so forth, I certainly won't argue, but if fuel was typically the limiting-factor in a patrol, I don't necessarily see the need to add another limitation that is not likely to ever be an actual limitation.

[LiveGoat]

I saw a mudcrab the other day :doh:

Oh it's you... hi.

What's new with you

Have you heard about the priest at the chapel in Anvil?

Don't talk to me!

Good day!

[kapitan_zur_see]

A more polite version of what I'm thinking. :up:

An even more polite version of what i'm thinking... :cool:
If it wasn't for all those "rivet counters" questions posted everywhere, the devs couldn't pick up insignificant questions and would be forced to answer major gameplay related one, or major questions about atmosphere. And thus grabing more ideas from us on the big pictures only.
For pete's sake, we already knows from 4 previous SH game how realism settings are implemented!!!

[karamazovnew]

I can't understand why anyone would disagree with having limited drinking water and food. Of course there would be no point in having a full load of fuel if you die of starvation at 50% fuel. And if you just shut down the engines and stay in the middle of the Atlantic for 6 months, the crew is bound to mutiny because of lack of morale, but still, it can't be too hard to implement a morale system that also shows it's components (patrol duration, crew health, quality of food, limitation to higene due to diminishing water supplies etc.). No need to model the byte marks on the bananas in the control room or animate the meat boiling in Markus' soup pan :haha:

[BulSoldier]

Good thing is drinking water wont run out. Anyway i will be happy if food is implemented in this way:

You have limited food supply (30 / 45 / 60 or whatever days).You also have an option to change the rations from full to 3/4 or 1/2 .The first wont effect the morale, but the later will decrease the morale faster. I think it is completly reasonable and not too much of a challange for the devs.

[TwistedFemur]

no way, i dont want to read a year long thread on how the bananas are curved the wrong way or the grapefruit shouldnt be that color.

realism is nice but i dont want to see the toilet paper in the head either even if it should be seen in real life ;)


or see the mess when bernard clogs the toilet;)

[mookiemookie]

And if you just shut down the engines and stay in the middle of the Atlantic for 6 months, the crew is bound to mutiny because of lack of morale,

Simple solution: don't do that.

[kptn_kaiserhof]

i agree with twistedFemur im also sick or bernard

[Ducimus]

Having said that though, a "provisions left" indication might be an acceptable compromise, as long as hitting 0 had no impact on my crew, unless I also had a way of increasing provisions whilst at sea.


As i recall, the Kriegsmarine has some of these floating around:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/sea_cow.jpg


But again, I'd rather see fully implemented game-play features over half attempts at the peripheries.

Umm, so far from what ive seen, isn't that what SH5 is all about? Peripheries? People put so much emphasis on eyecandy for "immersion", but less on what makes up a simulation. SH5, as so far, seems like its going to put heavy emphasis on eyecandy while not really changing the core gameplay mechanics all that much.

Now don't get me wrong, eyecandy has its place, but it should not be held on such a pedestal, as to deny the details that make up a sim, or to be used as a reason to not improve upon those details. Unfortunatly, If anything, all the majority of the community has probably shown the dev's over the last few years is they want to be entertained by feeling their in an interactive version of Das Boot, and don't want to be bothered with the details.

edit:



To the point of provisions, though, it was my understanding that U-Boats tended to be overstocked, even late in the war. If Ubisoft has the time and inclination to implement provisions and rationing and so forth, I certainly won't argue, but if fuel was typically the limiting-factor in a patrol, I don't necessarily see the need to add another limitation that is not likely to ever be an actual limitation.

Here's the thing. In SH3, you can sit there, at an all stop, doing 0 knots, and advance the time compresson. And so long as you never fire up your engines by moving, you can sit there for two months, three months, four months, etc. You can sit there for as long as you like. Now in SH4, you still do burn some fuel, even just sitting there, so that does limit your patrol time. However, if my patrol time is going to be limited (which i agree it should be), then id rather it not be by having the fuel constantly being used up. Id like to save that for high speed chases if i can.

[JScones]

As i recall, the Kriegsmarine has some of these floating around:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/sea_cow.jpg

But do we know yet whether SH5 will?
Umm, so far from what ive seen, isn't that what SH5 is all about? Peripheries? People put so much emphasis on eyecandy for "immersion", but less on what makes up a simulation. SH5, as so far, seems like its going to put heavy emphasis on eyecandy while not really changing the core gameplay mechanics all that much.

Now don't get me wrong, eyecandy has its place, but it should not be held on such a pedestal, as to deny the details that make up a sim, or to be used as a reason to not improve upon those details. Unfortunatly, If anything, all the majority of the community has probably shown the dev's over the last few years is they want to be entertained by feeling their in an interactive version of Das Boot, and don't want to be bothered with the details.
So I'm not the only one fearing "SH5: The Das Boot Video Game"?

I have noticed that some people seem to consider Das Boot as the authoritive source on all things U-boat. Could be worse I guess, people could be asking for things like they saw in U-571...

[Rockin Robbins]

OK if we're going to have to feed the crew, then I want to


Keep track of their dirty underwear. Dirty underwear is bad for morale, at least according to our mothers, and would severely affect combat readiness. Let's have a dirty underwear monitor, showing the percentage of dirty underwear at all times!
Conning tower rust gauge. Listen, if you are so lax as to permit excessive rust to form on your conning tower, chances are you are lackadaisical in some other areas which contribute to fighting the war effectively. Too much conning tower rust should cost you renown and result in less accurate torpedo targeting.
Battery electrolyte levels. We need a gauge for the electrolyte level in each of the several hundred cells aboard. Letting just one get too low would release chlorine gas into the atmosphere, ruining appetites everywhere. We should also have a specific gravity gauge for each cell as well so we will know whether we have to add distilled water or acid. Just click on the water or acid, then click on the appropriate cell to adjust, then test again. Repeat as necessary several hundred times per day! Wow! NOW we're getting somewhere.
On board submarine newspaper. Each sub should have to produce an on-board newspaper, using a 1980 version of WordStar instead of a manual typewriter. They were just about equivalent torture to use. Failure to produce the day's edition would result in morale loss which would impair the crew's ability to maneuver the submarine effectively.
We could swab the deck with our mouse moving back and forth over the deck until it's bright and clean every morning, similar to a grind in an MMORPG. Wouldn't that be fun!


I'm sure there are other realism features we can bring to this excellent game to come. Poker games and torpedo juice drinking come to mind. With a few more great ideas like mine, this game could be so boring that NOBODY would ever want to play it. Isn't that exciting?

[JScones]

And of course, don't forget the flatulence-in-the-air level gauge. I mean, if the level is above average then the food should spoil quicker, thus adversely impacting the provisions gauge. And if the level is way too high, then crew should start dieing of asphixiation through difficulty breathing.

Of course, both gauges need to be in 3D and clickable by the Kaleun. :up:

[Trool323]

I C I started a little firestorm. I don't think it has to be to extreme. I would however, like to C patrol length shortened based on food and supplies left on my U boat. like I said at the front I don't want to be on patrol for 6 months or more and never EAT.. A lot of you have made good points in this topic though. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be bothered by my constant food and supply problems either.

trool323.....

[Randomizer]

I C I started a little firestorm. I don't think it has to be to extreme. I would however, like to C patrol length shortened based on food and supplies left on my U boat. like I said at the front I don't want to be on patrol for 6 months or more and never EAT.. A lot of you have made good points in this topic though. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be bothered by my constant food and supply problems either.

trool323.....
If you do not want to be on patrol for 6-months Don't stay out that long!

Before leaving I always set a rough endurance and target a return date, generally 45-90 days but it's mission dependant. I find it amazing that people require the game to perform this simple piece of the planning process for them.

Any ship captain that involved in day to day feeding belongs on a cruise ship and not a submarine.

[mookiemookie]

If you do not want to be on patrol for 6-months Don't stay out that long!

Before leaving I always set a rough endurance and target a return date, generally 45-90 days but it's mission dependant. I find it amazing that people require the game to perform this simple piece of the planning process for them.

Any ship captain that involved in day to day feeding belongs on a cruise ship and not a submarine.

Quoted for truth. The devs have already said we're not playing "feed the crew" with food ration systems, so why is this still even being discussed like its a possibility?

[Randomizer]

Before leaving this off for good I find it kind of depressing that some players seem to be fixated with trivia like rations (thankfully excluded from SH5) and celestial navigation, a tiresome chore relagated (and rightly so) to comparatively junior officers and Senior NCO's. Instead we get the ability to gaze in awe at the rocker arms on the diesel engines, a sound and light spectaular sure to be inspiring even after months and years of game play.

Meanwhile little is said about the nice little features that each iteration of subsims in general and the Silent Hunter franchise seem to drop, gone but not forgotten.

Not Silent Hunter perhaps but anybody remember in AOTD how running silent caused cause water to build up in the bilges at depth and solving that problem could effect buoyancy and detectability?

Or how you could shadow a convoy (during the historical wolf-packing years) and the (seemingly) random placed AI boats would try and close to attack?

Or how BdU would set up a tanker rendevous based on your fuel state.

Or that ambiant noise from a convoy could seemingly mask your sub's hydrophone effect?

Or that SH1 had fuel measured in gallons so endurance, range and time on station were easily calculated.

Or providing sunrise/sunset data and phases of the moon for your current position?

Or the ability to switch from red to white lighting at will?

None of these features are big but I'll bet few if any make it into SH5. Instead we will get soup.

Good Hunting

[Rockin Robbins]

I C I started a little firestorm. I don't think it has to be to extreme. .....

NO! NO! This is too much fun! How about a head interface. I don't want to go on a four month cruise and not be able to go to the head!

We could have clickable valves and switches that we would have to engage in the proper sequence or


Pressure back blast! The entire room and you are covered with the experience of your excursion to the head! Wow! Realism soars to a new level.
Or, maybe worse, your ham-handedness actually back-pressurizes the fresh-water delivery system, transferring some of your newly made sewage to the coffee urn in the galley! (This could really happen you know) This ties in smellily with the provisions "feature." Don't worry, it may taste better than the actual "coffee" served there.:D

There's a ton of ideas where that came from. Ubi, you need to hire me and pay me magnificently for these genre busting innovations!

Don't worry, the game design has been frozen for months. There's no danger of a single suggestion ever being adopted. That may be good.

[Sevrin]

Before leaving this off for good I find it kind of depressing that some players seem to be fixated with trivia like rations (thankfully excluded from SH5) and celestial navigation, a tiresome chore relagated (and rightly so) to comparatively junior officers and Senior NCO's. Instead we get the ability to gaze in awe at the rocker arms on the diesel engines, a sound and light spectaular sure to be inspiring even after months and years of game play.

Meanwhile little is said about the nice little features that each iteration of subsims in general and the Silent Hunter franchise seem to drop, gone but not forgotten.

Not Silent Hunter perhaps but anybody remember in AOTD how running silent caused cause water to build up in the bilges at depth and solving that problem could effect buoyancy and detectability?

Or how you could shadow a convoy (during the historical wolf-packing years) and the (seemingly) random placed AI boats would try and close to attack?

Or how BdU would set up a tanker rendevous based on your fuel state.

Or that ambiant noise from a convoy could seemingly mask your sub's hydrophone effect?

Or that SH1 had fuel measured in gallons so endurance, range and time on station were easily calculated.

Or providing sunrise/sunset data and phases of the moon for your current position?

Or the ability to switch from red to white lighting at will?

None of these features are big but I'll bet few if any make it into SH5. Instead we will get soup.

Good Hunting

x10 /agree



Where did Ubi get the idea we wanted RPG/FPS elements in the Silent Hunter series...? This talk about micro-managing the crew so they don't mutiny, and walking them around like 'the Sims' is crazy...we're going way off track and into uncharted territory. The more they concentrate on things like that, the less it becomes a simulation. I don't really even like the idea of crew fatigue and morale, and the artificial factors involved in keeping that in line...too much fluff.

[Webster]

I C I started a little firestorm. I don't think it has to be to extreme. I would however, like to C patrol length shortened based on food and supplies left on my U boat. like I said at the front I don't want to be on patrol for 6 months or more and never EAT.. A lot of you have made good points in this topic though. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be bothered by my constant food and supply problems either.

trool323.....


patrols werent shortened for lack of food and supplies, the captains simply needed to be resourcefull and scavenge merchants for food and supplies before they sank them. when subs caught lone unarmed merchants they couldnt do anything but abandon ship in most cases so subs were free to send raiding parties to retreve supplies if needed.

if in the game you needed to and were allowed to do this then i can see how it would be something that would add an element to the game where you need to do this for long patrols as part of completing your objective.

so something like this overall approach to bring food stores into the captains thought process is ok but skip the micro managing please.

[totodog]

Before leaving this off for good I find it kind of depressing that some players seem to be fixated with trivia like rations (thankfully excluded from SH5) and celestial navigation, a tiresome chore relagated (and rightly so) to comparatively junior officers and Senior NCO's. Instead we get the ability to gaze in awe at the rocker arms on the diesel engines, a sound and light spectaular sure to be inspiring even after months and years of game play.



Wait, so do like or dislike the diesel engines?

[JScones]

Where did Ubi get the idea we wanted RPG/FPS elements in the Silent Hunter series...?
Here perhaps? :hmmm:

Don't worry, the game design has been frozen for months. There's no danger of a single suggestion ever being adopted. That may be good.
I dunno, I've heard that SH6 will be developed exclusively for XBox, using technical advisors from Subsim:

Press Y to surface
Press A to dive
Press X to call in Wolfpack, any day, any night
Press B to talk to/spank crew
Press LT to feed crew (achievement points for doing so)
Press LB to rotate bananas (5 successful rotations unlocks new super submarine)
Press RT to fire something at someone somewhere
Use D-pad to walk up and down interior

The boring stuff, like looking for the enemy, setting up firing solutions etc etc, will be removed altogether. The player will randomly press the RT button (any depth, doesn't matter) and will be told via a 3D interactive screen whether they hit anything.

:D

[Webster]

Here perhaps? :hmmm:


I dunno, I've heard that SH6 will be developed exclusively for XBox, using technical advisors from Subsim:

Press Y to surface
Press A to dive
Press X to call in Wolfpack, any day, any night
Press B to talk to/spank crew
Press LT to feed crew (achievement points for doing so)
Press LB to rotate bananas (5 successful rotations unlocks new super submarine)
Press RT to fire something at someone somewhere
Use D-pad to walk up and down interior

The boring stuff, like looking for the enemy, setting up firing solutions etc etc, will be removed altogether. The player will randomly press the RT button (any depth, doesn't matter) and will be told via a 3D interactive screen whether they hit anything.

:D

:har:

[Rockin Robbins]

patrols werent shortened for lack of food and supplies, the captains simply needed to be resourcefull and scavenge merchants for food and supplies before they sank them. when subs caught lone unarmed merchants they couldnt do anything but abandon ship in most cases so subs were free to send raiding parties to retreve supplies if needed.

if in the game you needed to and were allowed to do this then i can see how it would be something that would add an element to the game where you need to do this for long patrols as part of completing your objective.

so something like this overall approach to bring food stores into the captains thought process is ok but skip the micro managing please.
Uh.........Webster.........can you cite any instances of this happening? Clue #1: research what Japanese naval and merchant crews ate. It wasn't recognizable as food by American stomachs. I've read dozens of first person American submarine books and there has been not a single instance of looting targets for "food."

For a graphic and stomach-wrenching view of Japanese merchant food read Tears in the Darkness, an amazing look at a nasty corner of that normally considered glorious war. You'll never like General Douglas MacArthur again. I didn't like him to begin with, but now I finally see him for who he was.

[Faamecanic]

patrols werent shortened for lack of food and supplies, the captains simply needed to be resourcefull and scavenge merchants for food and supplies before they sank them. when subs caught lone unarmed merchants they couldnt do anything but abandon ship in most cases so subs were free to send raiding parties to retreve supplies if needed.

if in the game you needed to and were allowed to do this then i can see how it would be something that would add an element to the game where you need to do this for long patrols as part of completing your objective.

so something like this overall approach to bring food stores into the captains thought process is ok but skip the micro managing please.

Ya...Like a First Person shooter. They could call it "Pantry Raid" mode. You get to run around a merchant ship, throwing foodstuffs in your rubber boats (or hitting a target on your Uboat).... kinda like those basketball games with the moving hoops that you see at bars! :rock:

[JScones]

Uh.........Webster.........can you cite any instances of this happening? Clue #1: research what Japanese naval and merchant crews ate. It wasn't recognizable as food by American stomachs. I've read dozens of first person American submarine books and there has been not a single instance of looting targets for "food."
Erm, I doubt German diets differed as much to British/American diets as American diets differed to Japanese diets. ;)

Anyway, read the last sentence here... http://www.uboat.net/men/foodstuffs.htm

Then http://www.uboat.net/forums/read.php?4,52545,52657 , http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-162INT.htm and http://books.google.com.au/books?id=fVTN8Rf1g2MC&pg=PA163&lpg=PA163&dq=u-boat+livestock&source=bl&ots=sTssmEcppA&sig=IP0ki4AyA6fbxadFAIXdA_fdK6s&hl=en&ei=2QTtSr7FE5Xq6gOgzoDvCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=u-boat%20livestock&f=false for just one example (search the text for "pig").

[JScones]

Oh, and according to Heinrich Timm (U-862 Captain), his crew went ashore at Hawkes Bay (New Zealand) and milked cows to supplement their rations! But this is just post-war yarning by the Kptlt.:rotfl2:

Still, let's not let reality get in the way (why start now?), so I wanna be able to milk cows whenever I please!

[Rockin Robbins]

Oh, and according to Heinrich Timm (U-862 Captain), his crew went ashore at Hawkes Bay (New Zealand) and milked cows to supplement their rations! But this is just post-war yarning by the Kptlt.:rotfl2:

Still, let's not let reality get in the way (why start now?), so I wanna be able to milk cows whenever I please!
You're right. U-Boats could have subsisted really well on the refrigerated food found in American merchies, anyway. I was in brain fade Pacific mode there.

Unfortunately, in order to get that yummy refrigerated food they would have to be attacking a lone merchant who had not radioed for air cover. It might have been pretty rare toward the middle and end of the war.

I repeat my call for accounts of U-Boats doing this. It would be an interesting read.

[Takeda Shingen]

I dunno, I've heard that SH6 will be developed exclusively for XBox, using technical advisors from Subsim:

Press Y to surface
Press A to dive
Press X to call in Wolfpack, any day, any night
Press B to talk to/spank crew
Press LT to feed crew (achievement points for doing so)
Press LB to rotate bananas (5 successful rotations unlocks new super submarine)
Press RT to fire something at someone somewhere
Use D-pad to walk up and down interior

The boring stuff, like looking for the enemy, setting up firing solutions etc etc, will be removed altogether. The player will randomly press the RT button (any depth, doesn't matter) and will be told via a 3D interactive screen whether they hit anything.

:D

Finally, our dream sim!

[Webster]

Uh.........Webster.........can you cite any instances of this happening? Clue #1: research what Japanese naval and merchant crews ate. It wasn't recognizable as food by American stomachs. I've read dozens of first person American submarine books and there has been not a single instance of looting targets for "food."



umm RR your in the wrong ocean.... sh5 is about uboats :salute:

i never said americans did this

as for planes showing up, i would think you would do this sort of stuff only under cover of darkness and/or bad weather so you dont get caught by surprise while doing it.

[Webster]

Ya...Like a First Person shooter. They could call it "Pantry Raid" mode. You get to run around a merchant ship, throwing foodstuffs in your rubber boats (or hitting a target on your Uboat).... kinda like those basketball games with the moving hoops that you see at bars! :rock:


i was refering to something along the lines how you get your options box when you are entering port where you can refit.

so why not be able to pull up to a disabled ship and have a checkbox to resupply food and water?

theres no need for video or animation or any of that but it could add a small additional option to extend or continue your patrol if needed, this is the only type of system i would want if food stores were somehow taken into consideration by the game. (basic and simple)

[mookiemookie]

so why not be able to pull up to a disabled ship and have a checkbox to resupply food and water?

Because IMHO that's tedious and boring. I wanna sink ships! :arrgh!:

[Sevrin]

Raiding ships for plunder!? Argh matey!

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx43/sevrin2009/barbossa.jpg?t=1257103180

[Rosencrantz]

Randomizer wrote:


Any ship captain that involved in day to day feeding belongs on a cruise ship and not a submarine.


Even if I don't see much of point having food supply modelled to the game, I'm still surprised your strong comment. Quote from Command at Sea (5th edition, Naval Institute Press):

"... You should review the menu carefully before approving it, and should insist that deviations be approved by you in writing..."

So, if I'm right, you think most of the US Navy skippers belong on a cruise ship...??? :06: Really?


Greetings,
-RC-

[Faamecanic]

i was refering to something along the lines how you get your options box when you are entering port where you can refit.

so why not be able to pull up to a disabled ship and have a checkbox to resupply food and water?

theres no need for video or animation or any of that but it could add a small additional option to extend or continue your patrol if needed, this is the only type of system i would want if food stores were somehow taken into consideration by the game. (basic and simple)

I was being sarcastic Webster... hence the "basketball hoops bar game" in my reference. I guess the joke fell a little flat....its so hard to express sarcasm and dry wit on a forum :)

Really...I would just rather Ubi concentrate on good sub warfare, good damage control interface, realisitc sub movement in the water (I still HATE the sub on a rail behavior in SH4), and good AI.

[Randomizer]

Randomizer wrote:





Even if I don't see much of point having food supply modelled to the game, I'm still surprised your strong comment. Quote from Command at Sea (5th edition, Naval Institute Press):

"... You should review the menu carefully before approving it, and should insist that deviations be approved by you in writing..."

So, if I'm right, you think most of the US Navy skippers belong on a cruise ship...??? :06: Really?
Greetings,
-RC-
Ya, I have that edition of Command at Sea, and a whack of other books on leadership and command as well. So what? Note the term REVIEW, which implies that all the work has been done by others. Meal planning is a STAFF function not a COMMAND function so your snarky and immature crack is out of place.

Most sub-simmers just load up a patrol and head out but I suspect the reality was that there was a huge amount of logistics work done concurrently with the mechanical refit and repairs. Flotilla staff would have worked closely with the Obersteuermann (responsible for loading of stores) and the cook to determine the basic menu well in advance. Afterall, space was severely limited and all storage had to be conducted with security and weight in mind. Storing the boat would be well planned and not at all haphazard with the items to be used first being loaded last and vice-versa. This means that at least in general, the meal planning would have been complete before the boat sailed so the 'Old Man' microm managing at sea still seems unlikely.

I recall from real life independant deployments the Battery Cook would prepare the meal plan and take it to the Battery Sergeant Major and Battery Captain (2 I/C) for approval. The Battery Commander would get a quick briefing on the plan, taking about ten-seconds of his day.

This apperant subsim obsession with injecting staff work trivia into a the games is most perplexing.

[JScones]

I repeat my call for accounts of U-Boats doing this. It would be an interesting read.
Why? I already provided a few links above recounting one such example.

[JScones]

It's all moot anyway, as the devs have already stated:

Will more elements limit the max duration of your patrol in SH5? (ex: food, water, medical supplies, crew morale, crew wanting to return home after a long period etc)

In SH5, crew morale is the deciding factor; the longer you stay on patrol, the more affected the crew is, and the less you are able to demand that “extra mile” from them. The morale system takes into account many modifiers that represent factors such as the “longing for home”, exhaustion, lack of food, while we chose not to bother the player, the U-Boat captain, with mundane tasks such as managing the food inventory.(bold added by me for emphasis).

[JScones]

As i recall, the Kriegsmarine has some of these floating around:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/sea_cow.jpg

But do we know yet whether SH5 will?
Answered my own question by trawling the Q&A thread over at Ubi...

Can we call in a refuelling sub or to reload the torps in the middle of Atlantic? and perhaps we can also see the crew in actions to refuel and reload the torps?

Whether the crew will be visibly performing these actions is still to be decided, but you’ll definitely be able to resupply at sea. This was an important factor in the real U-Boat campaign and it will be the same in our game too.Sweet!

[Rosencrantz]

Randomizer wrote:


Meal planning is a STAFF function not a COMMAND function so your snarky and immature crack is out of place.




Ok, just calm down, Rando! I know what you mean and we are in the same side. Only thing I wanted to say was, that if meals in the wardroom start have a bad taste it won't be a long time before CO will start making questions, and that's the way he might be involved in day to day feedings. And as I said, I can't see any good reason why these problems should be involved in the sub sim.


Greetings,
-RC-

[Highbury]

You guys aim too low. We should have to account for every morsel of food. When in dock we should have to drive the truck to get the supplies ourselves, and if they dare to model the Opel Maultier with unrealistic handling on gravel roads in wet weather then SHV will be a failure of a naval sim (and of course the truck needs 6DOF TIR support!)

[Kaleun_Endrass]

and of course the truck needs 6DOF TIR support!
At least. I don't expect less... :|\\
The uboat and all related matter is so wide and complex that we won't ever get an all-included sim. But dreams stay dreams.
There are only two options left to get that all-in-one subsim:
a) wait for a game with open framework to mod everything in that we want
b) start an open-source project of a subsim where everyone can participate.

[Highbury]

Nah, think I'll stick with option C.

c) make unrealistic demands. whine that I was lied to and cheated out of my money after release. go back to GWX3.

[JScones]

You guys aim too low. We should have to account for every morsel of food. When in dock we should have to drive the truck to get the supplies ourselves, and if they dare to model the Opel Maultier with unrealistic handling on gravel roads in wet weather then SHV will be a failure of a naval sim (and of course the truck needs 6DOF TIR support!)
Opel Maultier? Well, that does it. Unless they model an Opel Blitz I ain't buying.

I mean, how unrealistic can they get? :nope: Opel Maultier indeed. Wouldn't be seen dead in one.

[Sevrin]

This! Or nothing... :)

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx43/sevrin2009/sdkfz.jpg?t=1257175381

[iambecomelife]

Uh.........Webster.........can you cite any instances of this happening? Clue #1: research what Japanese naval and merchant crews ate. It wasn't recognizable as food by American stomachs. I've read dozens of first person American submarine books and there has been not a single instance of looting targets for "food."

For a graphic and stomach-wrenching view of Japanese merchant food read Tears in the Darkness, an amazing look at a nasty corner of that normally considered glorious war. You'll never like General Douglas MacArthur again. I didn't like him to begin with, but now I finally see him for who he was.

I think he was referring to Atlantic warfare. There's plenty of evidence that allied merchants were scavenged for supplies. I can think of the "Regent Tiger" & "Paulus Potter", for instance:

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/11.html

http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ships/1929.html

I think the criticism of "micromanagement" is going a little too far. There's no need to go into excessive detail - food should just be a limitation to prevent players from pulling any crazy stunts, like staying on patrol for half a year. I remember that once in "Sub Battle", which I played on a 25 mhz 486 computer, the crew starved to death because I overshot the patrol area by thousands of miles. There were no visual representations of food or detailed menus - it was just another issue to be factored in like fuel & ammunition. If this could be done nearly two decades ago I hope that we don't hear cop-outs like, "it's too demanding for a typical PC". One gauge or a static screen would be fine. Scavenging merchants would be nice but I can understand if there's no time to implement this feature.

To sum it all up, my opinion is mixed. SOME representation of food supplies would be nice, but I agree there's no need for micromanagement, and I don't want it at the expense of more important features.

[Ducimus]

But do we know yet whether SH5 will?

So I'm not the only one fearing "SH5: The Das Boot Video Game"?

I have noticed that some people seem to consider Das Boot as the authoritive source on all things U-boat. Could be worse I guess, people could be asking for things like they saw in U-571...

That, i think, is exactly what it's going to be. From what ive seen so far, nothing is being furthered to enhance the simulation at all, just the feel of it. Too many people define "realism" and "immersion" as eyecandy and the das boot feel. The impression i have, is too many folks have no taste for the details. I don't think they want a game that makes you read a manual before you can play it (IE, a simulation), that's just boring details, they want a first person submarine action roleplaying game. I think im the non conformist, as id prefer a detailed, WW2 submarine simulation to go along with that eyecandy. After 4 or 5 years of Sh3/SH4, Im bored with the usual gameplay mechanics. I want more authenticity, not less.


As for being able to refuel at sea, im guessing you haven't played SH4 much. That functionality is already there in SH4, and SH5 is using Sh4 as a foundation.

[SteamWake]

That, i think, is exactly what it's going to be. From what ive seen so far, nothing is being furthered to enhance the simulation at all, just the feel of it. Too many people define "realism" and "immersion" as eyecandy and the das boot feel. The impression i have, is too many folks have no taste for the details. I don't think they want a game that makes you read a manual before you can play it (IE, a simulation), that's just boring details, they want a first person submarine action roleplaying game. I think im the non conformist, as id prefer a detailed, WW2 submarine simulation to go along with that eyecandy. After 4 or 5 years of Sh3/SH4, Im bored with the usual gameplay mechanics. I want more authenticity, not less.


As for being able to refuel at sea, im guessing you haven't played SH4 much. That functionality is already there in SH4, and SH5 is using Sh4 as a foundation.

It is?

Ive always had to sail to a base to re-fuel.

Then there is the plethora of posts "I'm out of fuel... now what?" to which the only answer is "Load a previous save or start a new carrer".

I guess there was some feature in the Uboat expansion but I never played the axis side so maybe I missed it.

[Ducimus]

It is?

Ive always had to sail to a base to re-fuel.

Then there is the plethora of posts "I'm out of fuel... now what?" to which the only answer is "Load a previous save or start a new carrer".

I guess there was some feature in the Uboat expansion but I never played the axis side so maybe I missed it.

I was referring to milk cows. Milk cows allow you to refuel and resupply at sea. The functionality is there, and your using it everytime you hit the "refit" at an allied base and your fuel gauge and torpedo count are fully restored in about as much time as it takes you to click a button. Now where you place the milk cows, and what you use to represent a milk cow (resupply sub, tanker, sub tender, etc) of course, is an entirely different subject. If you really wanted to, you could place a "Milk cow" right off the coast of japan, not very historical, but you can do it.

[Sevrin]

That, i think, is exactly what it's going to be. From what ive seen so far, nothing is being furthered to enhance the simulation at all, just the feel of it. Too many people define "realism" and "immersion" as eyecandy and the das boot feel. The impression i have, is too many folks have no taste for the details. I don't think they want a game that makes you read a manual before you can play it (IE, a simulation), that's just boring details, they want a first person submarine action roleplaying game. I think im the non conformist, as id prefer a detailed, WW2 submarine simulation to go along with that eyecandy. After 4 or 5 years of Sh3/SH4, Im bored with the usual gameplay mechanics. I want more authenticity, not less.

Could not agree more, but apparently (and unfortunately) this represents the minority view... :-?

Graphics aside, I feel the series is regressing. What major systems have been improved?



Maybe it's just me, but walking around in 3-D mode pushing the 'soup guy' out of the way just isn't compelling... :zzz:

They may as well hand us grenades and an MP40 and let us shoot everything...

[JScones]

That, i think, is exactly what it's going to be. From what ive seen so far, nothing is being furthered to enhance the simulation at all, just the feel of it. Too many people define "realism" and "immersion" as eyecandy and the das boot feel. The impression i have, is too many folks have no taste for the details. I don't think they want a game that makes you read a manual before you can play it (IE, a simulation), that's just boring details, they want a first person submarine action roleplaying game. I think im the non conformist, as id prefer a detailed, WW2 submarine simulation to go along with that eyecandy. After 4 or 5 years of Sh3/SH4, Im bored with the usual gameplay mechanics. I want more authenticity, not less.


As for being able to refuel at sea, im guessing you haven't played SH4 much. That functionality is already there in SH4, and SH5 is using Sh4 as a foundation.
Could not agree more, but apparently (and unfortunately) this represents the minority view... :-?

Graphics aside, I feel the series is regressing. What major systems have been improved?



Maybe it's just me, but walking around in 3-D mode pushing the 'soup guy' out of the way just isn't compelling... :zzz:

They may as well hand us grenades and an MP40 and let us shoot everything...
+1 to both of you. :up:

Which reminds me - totally random thought - I wonder if SH5 will fix up the supercharger issue (GW Kapselgebläse and MAN Buchigebläse) that exists in SH3?

[kapitan_zur_see]

Sh5 is not going to be a revolution of a subsim simply because there is not "so much" entirely NEW left to implement... It's tuning the AI, tuning the uboat behaviors, tuning damages etc. but still, it's just tuning... Or add bits of nice no critical ideas like crew morale or wolfpacks. Yes wolfpacks, as some might have forgot, is not what defines a subsim. Torpedo targeting is, for instance... You won't see anything of that wolfpack thing the few times it will take place in your whole career. You're not going to track in the environment exactly what each uboat is doing in realtime... Bottomline is? No interactions between each subs... So you could as well model wolfpack by simply sending you a message making you believe there are other subs in the battle whilst not even model them into the environment and just making some of the ennemy boats kinda randomly explode from time to time and gameplay wise, you'd be tricked to such an extent that your experience would be close to just the same as you would get with true wolfpacks implementation.

Anything going really further on all these points would be starting an HARDCORE sim, and that, marketing wise, unfortunately, have only chances to appeal to flightsimmers or drivers. Because there are lots of people flying around the world, or people dreaming of supercars. The same on uboat just doesn't applies...

So what options do you have left? Improve mechanics and spend as much as to get it as close to a good movie like experience, so that at least, you also feels very immersed and not becoming a technician

[Ducimus]

In my mind, a submarine sim that puts you as the boats captain, is (aside from shooting torpedo's), all about making decisions. Part of that is how you operationally conduct the boat, and how you conduct your patrol. (Not about letters from home or other such BS) Your sub should be authentic in it's nonclamature, and for example, if the sub your using has a listed endurance factor of 75 days, then it should have an endurance of 75 days before you need to resupply. Period. This is no different then battery life, diesal fuel capacity, or test depth.

But then again, maybe thats too hardcore for some folks. In my mind, it would be REALLY nice if i could run on the batteries while on the surface, have both prop's with independant throttle, and dive planes that actually control how many degree's you put on the planes. THAT would be nice. Instead you get soup.

[Sevrin]

You mean you DON'T want to ground your boat, go ashore in an alternate time-line to rescue Rommel from a group of genetically-altered invaders from Mars?? :woot:

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx43/sevrin2009/wolfenstein.jpg?t=1257213335

[IrishUboot]

I like the idea of food rations. I would love to combine the joy of fishing with that of commanding my U-boat.

It seems people tend to go overboard with the whole "developers wasting time" thing. It's not like the game is on a yearly cycle. Surely they could spare a day to write something into the game that would allow for greater realism.

[Webster]

I like the idea of food rations. I would love to combine the joy of fishing with that of commanding my U-boat.

It seems people tend to go overboard with the whole "developers wasting time" thing. It's not like the game is on a yearly cycle. Surely they could spare a day to write something into the game that would allow for greater realism.

well the thing is, something that sounds so simple to do can really add all sorts of interconnection problems you dont notice at first.

something you learn quickly once you start doing your own mods is that any simple minor thing you add to the game can very easily have all sorts of unintended consequences.

for a game in developement it could take several months to a year to get it working properly with the other parts of the game and a few after release patches to become bug free. it can also cause many things in the game that were working bug free to suddenly become buggy just to add some seemingly minor element.

[Annatar]

A second fuel gauge with a constant rate of consumption and some if/then morale penalties at low levels will not take a year to implement. Nor will it require fundamental rewrites of the game.

I don't see how anybody can argue against the inclusion of supplies in a supposed sim that simulates the operation of a vessel which may spend months at sea. Nobody objects to limited torpedoes or limited fuel. Food is people-fuel and is as vital to the operation of the boat as diesel.

Of course it's all moot. I doubt the devs had already planned for food, and I doubt they'll add unplanned new elements with ~5 months left before release.

[mookiemookie]

I don't see how anybody can argue against the inclusion of supplies in a supposed sim that simulates the operation of a vessel which may spend months at sea. Nobody objects to limited torpedoes or limited fuel. Food is people-fuel and is as vital to the operation of the boat as diesel.


We can argue against it because it wasn't the limiting factor that fuel or torpedoes were. Most boats ran out of fuel or armament long before they ran out of food.

U-196's 225 day patrol in 1943 was extraordinary. No one starved to death, though. I'm sure morale was low on the ship (they only sunk 2 ships for 12,000 tons) and it seems the developers have taken this into account by having crew morale gradually degrade the longer you are at sea. That's all the food and morale management I need in my sim. I don't want the tedium of raiding ships and implementing half rations, or blah blah blah that takes the focus off what I'm out to do: sink ships. I have no idea why people are so hung up on this idea.

[Snestorm]

The more I think about it, and the more I read our posts on this topic, the more convinced I become, that the devs made the right call in "not bothering us with the details".

We all sink together.

[Ducimus]

>>that the devs made the right call in "not bothering us with the details".



Hmm, quite. I found some new and exciting gameplay footage of SH5!

Check this out, you can board the new Uboat at 3:00!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D7hZBUfekg

[Webster]

I found some new and exciting gameplay footage of SH5!

Check this out, you can board the new Uboat at 3:00!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D7hZBUfekg


:woot: :06: :hmmm: :) :haha: :har:

[Sevrin]

I wouldn't laugh too much, that may be where SH series is headed... :hmmm:

[JScones]

Stop teasing! I bet a lot of people just got very exciting watching that, thinking you were serious.:rotfl2:

[mookiemookie]

Stop teasing! I bet a lot of people just got very exciting watching that, thinking you were serious.:rotfl2:

Like the spaz on the Ubi forums who wanted a captain's sidearm included in the game so he could shoot crewmen who didn't perform their jobs if morale got too low.

Everytime I give that place a chance, I'm reminded why I keep writing it off.

[Highbury]

Hmm, quite. I found some new and exciting gameplay footage of SH5!

Check this out, you can board the new Uboat at 3:00!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D7hZBUfekg

I didn't see crates of food stored anywhere, NOT impressed.

[kptn_kaiserhof]

how about soup