If they cant do AI wolfpacks...

[GoldenRivet]

Would you be willing to settle for AI U-boats that can fire torpedoes, dive and surface, and respond to your contact reports?

even if they cannot model complex AI instructions for coordinated attacks by radio etc etc.

in other words, you send a contact report

the AI BDU checks to see if any AI subs are within XX miles if your location

if there are AI subs within XX miles, BDU responds "Shadow convoy, and await assistance"

then AI boats eventually show up and attack.

[Gezoes]

That happens to be exactly what I am expecting when thinking about wolfpacks ingame. Hope for more, but at least that.

[rosentorf]

This would be adequately satisfactory...I think it won't matter too much if very complex wolfpack strategies are implemented or not. Most of the time anything complex like this ,in the end, will not really represent what happened/was possible in RL and rather be cumbersome and repetitive, unless it is flawlessly implemented. If you just "call in" u-boote that are in your area it is a simple yet effective system that matches the simulated world we hunt in. For a somewhat coordinated attack ther should be a radio message (if surfaced of course) of any friendly boats that are arriving in the vicinity of the targets so you know you can start attacking.

[THE_MASK]

They had a german scout plane in the uboat expansion so a german pseudo scout sub shouldnt be too hard .

[JU_88]

Would you be willing to settle for AI U-boats that can fire torpedoes, dive and surface, and respond to your contact reports?

even if they cannot model complex AI instructions for coordinated attacks by radio etc etc.

in other words, you send a contact report

the AI BDU checks to see if any AI subs are within XX miles if your location

if there are AI subs within XX miles, BDU responds "Shadow convoy, and await assistance"

then AI boats eventually show up and attack.


IMHO that is all that is required of Wolfpacks anyway, I dont see what more people could really want?

[looney]

Afaik subcommanders didn't talk to eachother during missions anyway.. They knew radio could be tracked by the enemy. Heck they did it themselves. Wolfpacks where organized by their commanders from germany.

So all we need is an AI wich dives and fires torps submerged and survaced. And if that is posssible MTB's will be able to fire torps also :)

For instance get orders to attack at say daybreak or sundown.. and then around that time you will see another explosion from an AI sub spawned nearby with same orders.


P.s. check out the actual effectiveness of wolfpacks
http://www.uboat.net/ops/convoys/convoys.php
I always thought when a convoy was picked up by a wolfpack they would decimate the convoy. But mostly they destroyed only 1 or 2 ships, with some exceptions.

[sergbuto]

So all we need is an AI wich dives and fires torps submerged and survaced. And if that is posssible MTB's will be able to fire torps also :)

For instance get orders to attack at say daybreak or sundown.. and then around that time you will see another explosion from an AI sub spawned nearby with same orders.

Yes, the proper sub-specific AI is needed. Formally, even just a 3D model of a sub which only moves on the surface and fires its guns could be already called by AI submarine but that is by far not good enough. Specific sub-AI routines in the code are needed.

Currently, in SH3 and SH4, the situation you describe with the spawned AI sub can't even happen because there is no spawning formalism like that in the campaign mode, specific triggers do not work. Therefore, in addition to sub-specific AI, working triggers or spawning formalism like in SH2 are also needed.

[karamazovnew]

the AI BDU checks to see if any AI subs are within XX miles if your location


Read this again please. What this means is that the career must have an aditional layer dedicated to submarines AND their influence on all other layers. If you remember, Ubi said that the player will be able to influence some parts of the war. Each sub's actions will matter more or less. Increased activity of uboats in an area will result in increased ASW presence and decreased convoy presence. And not only must the game keep track of everything those uboats do, it must also ensure that they act according to hystorical statistics. How many Uboats are built, where they are sent, how they interact whith BdU and you (radio chat) , how succesful they are, how many are sunk and so on and so forth. And I'm sure 90% of us will be bitching about why Prien is still alive in 1943 :D

Giving them an aditional order to come to your position, or keep shadowing a convoy untill you get there is a bloody piece of cake compared to the big picture :haha:. Ask yourself what you want. Do you want a Call of Duty type game where the entire army is there just to wait for you to get to the next waypoint? Or do you want a Falcon 4 campaign where you're just a very tiny piece of the puzzle and the war doesn't trully care about you? I'd go for the latter myself, but it requires a LOT of work from the devs. I hope they have time to implement this, but who knows.

[looney]

How are hunter killergroups generated in SH3? Shouldn't uboats treated the same? If they come across an enemy throw the dice about outcome.. and continu.

[GoldenRivet]

one problem that must be addressed for wolfpacks is proper intercepts.

we cant have AI u-boats making a bee line for the location of your contact report... otherwise they show up 2 or 3 days later about 100 miles behind the convoy!

they have to be able to intercept.

[Col. Caldwell]

It'd be nice if you could request other subs to join in an attack. Having AI subs would be nice even if wolfpacks aren't implemented. It'd be great to finally know you're not the only sub out there.

[FIREWALL]

Something has to be worked out to make SH5 a unique WWII subsim.

SH4 was not their finest hour.

[Webster]

Would you be willing to settle for AI U-boats that can fire torpedoes, dive and surface, and respond to your contact reports?

even if they cannot model complex AI instructions for coordinated attacks by radio etc etc.

in other words, you send a contact report

the AI BDU checks to see if any AI subs are within XX miles if your location

if there are AI subs within XX miles, BDU responds "Shadow convoy, and await assistance"

then AI boats eventually show up and attack.


yes, yes, yes, and yes!

i dont want a wolfpack game where they model complex AI instructions for coordinated attacks by radio etc etc, in my honest opinion it would be something new and wouldnt be what silent hunter series is about (control of 1 sub and 1 crew) so it doesnt deserve the #5 designation and should instead be called "silent hunter - wolfpacks".


i want sh5 with wolfpacks working as you described :yeah:

send a contact report

the AI BDU checks to see if any AI subs are within XX miles if your location

if there are AI subs within XX miles, BDU responds "Shadow convoy, and await assistance" (i would like to see grid coordinates and time to meet up with the other subs added here)

then AI boats eventually show up and attack (again at time and place as reported)

it would be nice if the player also had the option to pick the time and place to meet so if you choose wrong you miss your chance at large score.

i think there should be a way to get extra credit for aranging an attack so you get some credit for the wolfpack overall success or lack there of.

[JU_88]

one problem that must be addressed for wolfpacks is proper intercepts.

we cant have AI u-boats making a bee line for the location of your contact report... otherwise they show up 2 or 3 days later about 100 miles behind the convoy!

they have to be able to intercept.


No, they would have to spawn some place in your grid - much like aircraft, at least that would be the easiest option.

[THE_MASK]

Asking to have wofpacks is easy . Getting it to work in game would be a game within a game , very hard and time consuming i would imagine . But this is how i would do it . As in uboat add on , instead of the scout plane there would be an invisible scout sub . The scout sub continuously scouts and in the same time compression as yourself . If on its random scouting of the entire grids it happens to detect a ship or convoy that is within a certain random distance from your sub then it will generate a location and ask for assistance . This would only happen in the historic time frame , months, years they had wofpacks . This is a start anyway and i would expect at least this in SH5 . See then you could go to the mission editor and script it or keep it random like you do with other vessels in the campaign . Its all about modding and being able to mod it .

[JU_88]

Asking to have wofpacks is easy . Getting it to work in game would be a game within a game , very hard and time consuming i would imagine . But this is how i would do it . As in uboat add on , instead of the scout plane there would be an invisible scout sub . The scout sub continuously scouts and in the same time compression as yourself . If on its random scouting of the entire grids it happens to detect a ship or convoy that is within a certain random distance from your sub then it will generate a location and ask for assistance . This would only happen in the historic time frame , months, years they had wofpacks . This is a start anyway and i would expect at least this in SH5 . See then you could go to the mission editor and script it or keep it random like you do with other vessels in the campaign . Its all about modding and being able to mod it .

hmm fine - but actual AI subs also need to fit in to the equasion somehow,
Would be nice to appoach a convoy to see that some ships are already damaged - or the Escorts are off blasting another Sub.
Sick and tired of having ALL escorts zero in on me - the second my first torpedo hits.
Im just saying that having wolf packs purley as an invisible entinity doesnt cut the mustard -for me anyway.

[The General]

What about integrating multiplayer into career mode somehow? Let's say every time you click the 'Summon other u-boat captains' icon in the radio room, a dialogue window opens with a chat forum so you can request help from other captains online worldwide and they help you take on a convoy , taskforce or whatever? Come on, it's not the craziest idea in the world?! :03:

[IanC]

Just apply whatever wolfpack system was used for Aces of the Deep. That's good enough for me! :yep:

[GoldenRivet]

I got to thinking. You wouldn't have to have another campaign layer for AI boats.

airplanes have airbases as spawn points... the AI BDU detects whether or not you are within range of one of these air bases, and it decides based on a % chance whether or not to send air units to assist you.

why not just have a bunch of hidden AI U-boat spawn points?

you could scatter perhaps 20 or 30 AI U-boat spawn points throughout the North Atlantic, and perhaps 4 or 5 in the south Atlantic and so on.

The spawn radius of each of these AI U-boat spawn points would be something like 150nm or 200nm or something of the sort.

if you are within this spawn radius and you send in a contact report, the AI BDU would then decide based on a % chance how many AI U-boats would theoretically be occupying that radius... then it would decide how many would be responding to your contact report.

The AI U-boats initialized for response to your contact report would then spawn, and set maximum speed toward an intercept point which would be based on the speed and course provided by you in your contact report.

BDU would then provide periodic updates, "U-42 and U-96 have been redirected to assist you, they expect contact in 10 hours."

BDU would then update you on the progress of their arrival on attack stations "U-42 and U-96 have provided tactical updates and will arrive to assist in attack in 5 hours."

and finally "All boats are assuming attack positions, begin attack at 0600 GMT"

to prevent AI U-boats persuing convoys to the ends of the earth and/or attacking until they are killed... i think that a limitation should be placed on AI U-Boats that they will break off their attack and leave the area when one of three conditions are met

1. they have fired 5 torpedoes.

2. they have expended half of their battery life.

3. they have suffered some form of damage.

Finally, for increased immersion, when a contact report is received by the player (as is so often the case) BdU should direct the player to break off of his current duties and respond to the contact report, when the player arrives he may or may not see other u-boats preparing to attack... however there should come a message from BDU "Boats are assuming attack positions, begin attack at 1800 GMT"

this way it is not always the player initiating the wolf pack tactic.

the pro of doing this

* it is more historically accurate as to real life u-boat operations and BDU micromanagement... hard core players would greatly appreciate the added realism

the con of doing this

* many players like the idea of cruising around having the world to themselves... they might not enjoy being micromanaged.

there should be a realism option to allow for the inclusion of AI wolfpacks... in other words if the player selects "No AI U-boats" it will just disable the U-boat spawn points.

in summation

1. Scatter AI U-Boat spawn points around the map

2. When the player sends a contact report for a convoy (not a single ship) the AI BDU engine will determine whether or not AI U-boat spawn criteria are met

3. if AI U-boat spawn criteria are met... x number of U-boats will be directed to join you in your attack and will head toward an intercept point at max speed.

4. the player will have to hold off on his attack and provide updates so that the "intercept point" of the AI U-boats can be further updated

5. so as to prevent the player from Time skipping through his own attack, BDU will provide updates as to the position of incoming u-boats at 24 hour, 12 hour, 10 hour, 5 hour, 3 2 and 1 hour intervals.

6. finally, when all boats are within visual distance of the convoy, BDU will direct the attack to commence at some later time... this gives the player a time frame to get established into position and prepare to fire his torpedoes - and prevents the AI from attacking before the player is ready... this keeps all hell from breaking lose before you are even in position to attack.

7. When an AI boat has 1. fired 5 torpedoes, 2. used up half of their battery or 3. suffered damage... the AI u-boat will break contact and head it's own separate random direction.

[THE_MASK]

Or just do it all thru the mission editor .

[GoldenRivet]

doing it in the mission editor is ok for single missions... but there is no dynamic element involved - and most people would want wolfpacks in the career mode.

you cant just put AI boats out in the ocean and expect wolfpacks to form... very specific programing routines have to be followed for the AI to function properly.

[THE_MASK]

I know what your saying , but i hope modders have some control over wolfpacks . Wheres the modders control over the scout plane in uboat addon ?

[GoldenRivet]

my guess would be that if there are AI spawn points in the atlantic... the modders could place as many or as few additional spawn points as they would like.

it would probably be a simple CFG file with spawn points being located in various grid squares with parameters by year/ month / spawn radius and the number and type of u-boats etc.

the game engine just has to have something to look at to determine what type of boat to spawn, how many of them to spawn and where to spawn them.

there are only 2 possibilities as far as AI u-boat spawns

1. the game engine spawns an appropriate number of boats

or

2. it doesnt

based on the spawn parameters listed in its programing for deciding whether or not to spawn AI boats

however, if the game engine elects not to spawn... a radio dialogue should be scripted for such occurrences

Example

BDU radios out: "[Player U-boat] has reported a large convoy in grid square CE17 Course 096, speed 8 kts. U-47 and U-96 are instructed to intercept and assist with convoy attack."

now... if the game engine decides not to spawn U-47 for example... radio dialogue would express this

U-47 radios back: "U-47 damaged by depth charges and low on fuel, unable to assist player U-boat, returning to port at this time."

any AI boat that was not spawned - a radio dialogue would be developed to indicate a reason for the boat not responding to your report

conversely any u-boat that was planning to respond would indicate intentions to do so.

"U-96 changing course and intercepting convoy as assigned at maximum speed, expect intercept in 11 hours in Grid Square CE18."

these radio dialogues could pretty much always be the same for every U-boat with 2 or 3 variable responses... the only variables in the messages themselves would of course be the U numbers, Grid Squares and the estimated time to intercept

[Jimbuna]

doing it in the mission editor is ok for single missions... but there is no dynamic element involved - and most people would want wolfpacks in the career mode.

you cant just put AI boats out in the ocean and expect wolfpacks to form... very specific programing routines have to be followed for the AI to function properly.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the mission editor (presuming of course that there will be one included in the release) :DL

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that it won't already include a dynamic element.

Wishful thinking I know.....but you just never know :hmmm:

[Uber Gruber]

Really guys....implementing Wolfpacks is not rocket science. The devs will have no problem implementing them if UBI decide to run with them.

[karamazovnew]

I'm not a fan of spawn points. For example I've just finished Max Payne AGAIN. The only thing that agravated me was enemies spawning after certain triggers so close to me that I couldn't do anything but quickload :damn:. It ruined the entire game, felt more like a quick-time event than shooting real bad guys. At least in Max Payne 2, these spawns were made by cars rushing through fences and stuff like that, giving me time to think a strategy.

What I've always liked about SH was that the ships felt quite real (apart from being generic and completely mute). I'd like them to be even more real, to spawn only at construction docks then transfer to ports to load up, wait for a convoy to be assembled then go across the Atlantic to a secret meeting with my eels :arrgh!:. And if I hit a ship but not sink her, I'd like her to go to port for repairs than resume work. Now that's about ships...

But I care much more about Uboats, I mean, they're my commarades, brothers in arms (or water). I want them to suffer like I do, have malfunctions and have to eat the same soup. I want them to scream proudly on the radio when they sink ships. This might sound weird but when I play GRID singleplayer I actually have one rival I totally hate, even if he's AI. A bit of competition on that tonnage leaderboard would be nice. If such a layer would be done correctly, one expansion could be something like "Silent Hunter 5: BdU", where at the end of a succesfull 2-3 year career you'd be asigned to a deskjob and be able to manage the entire uboat war and jump to any sub you want to sink ships yourself.

Sure, even spawn points for uboats are better than nothing but for me at least, it will ruin the feel. I'd have to smoke something or drink to forget about it and immerse myself in the game :|\\

[Webster]

I'm not a fan of spawn points.


well in silent hunter things spawn only at a good distance away from you (just over the horizon and outside of the distance you can see in most cases) or they dont spawn at all so its not going to pop up in front of you like many games do which i agree about that being really silly and ruins many games

[Webster]

i think wolfpacks are easy to do but hard to manage because they already have the ability in sh4 to call for air support and a plane shows up after a little while so switch the plane out for a few AI controlled u-boats and theres your wolfpack.

i cant see them doing a detailed thing where you have to tell them what to do or plan the attack for them. that would ruin the game in my opinion which is about "you and your crew" not a fleet of subs you push buttons to control or send orders out to like some admiral sitting behind a desk.

instead of the wolfpack showing up on your location like planes do (because planes are fast enough to do that) you should have to give a course and speed of convoy and get a return message of something like "wolfpack will meet you at grid xyz, shadow and report any course changes" weather delays or something could randomly fubar the ambush and you go it alone.

the biggest thing i see as a problem with wolfpacks is making the game look right and the two main AI glitches that i can see to overcome are:

1 if DD go after the wolfpack will you be left alone? this makes the game too easy.

2 if the DD do go after you then how many? if destroyed will any more come after you? if all DD come after you as they do in sh4 right now then this would be a realism killer and would look stupid.

[raymond6751]

And I said 'Let there be a data base' and Lo it came to pass. A data base of uboats out, coming in, at port. Each launches from port after suitable delay and proceeds to a pre-determined grid (currently decided pack location).

At that point the sub simply attacks any enemy shipping found during given time on station. Player sub is informed by radio of current pack location and captain can decide if he is in range to join in.

Pack location can be determined based on time & convoy routes, changed by events/time/weather patterns/player location. Pack must move to new locations at realistic pace.

We already have combat between surface ships in game, so it should not be a stretch to have combat involving ai subs. :stare:

[JU_88]

1 if DD go after the wolfpack will you be left alone? this makes the game too easy.

2 if the DD do go after you then how many? if destroyed will any more come after you? if all DD come after you as they do in sh4 right now then this would be a realism killer and would look stupid.



1) But in reality thats exactly what made the packs so successful! (in the early days of the wolfpack), the pack got between the convoy lanes and the escorts where overwhelmed to the point they could do little more than intimidate the uboats with gun fire and force them to dive - before moving on.
Since the packs struck a night the escorts had an difficult task to pin point the Uboats with out any radar equipment.

Unlike SH3 /SH4 Convoy Escorts would not hunt the Uboat until is was lost or sunk while leaving the convoy to sail off into the horizon - their orders were to stick to the convoy like glue.
Wolf packs will hopefully help remedy this pretty major flaw in Escort behaviour (of the past two games)

People tend forget, you wont likely be attacking in Wolf packs for 80-90% of your career. So overall it will not effect the games difficulty.
If it does happen that way on occasion, then count you self lucky and sink some tonnage while the escorts are preoccupied.:03:

2) Again this is unrealistic behavior for convoy Escorts.
However the escorts AI in SH3/Sh4 is already capable of handling mutiple threats and its really no different from the way AI Bots respond to you and team mates in Squad based First person shooter like ArmA or Battlefield 2. You can test it in SH3 or 4, fire up a mission where some hostile DDs have to choose between you and some other freindly vessels.... then see how they deal with it.


In short I'm saying what ever happens with Wolfpacks, it will work much like any other game where you have AI team mates.
Secondly, whilest it will be a nice part of the game, you will still be hunting alone 90% of the time.

Having Wolfpacks is not going to turn SHV into a Naval RTS or a Squad based naval sim.
I think some folks are reading too much in to it.

[kapitan_zur_see]

whilest it will be a nice part of the game, you will still be hunting alone 90% of the time.

Having Wolfpacks is not going to turn SHV into a Naval RTS or a Squad based naval sim.
I think some folks are reading too much in to it.

You sum it up for good IMHO... people tends to put too much desires into that wolfpack thingy whilst not realising it's gonna be a minor part of the game if you want it to be at least historicaly accurate...

There's plenty of other things where efforts could be concentrate on that would affect your WHOLE carreer.

[THE_MASK]

IF they carnt do uPACKS THANW HO CARES :yeah:

[JU_88]

IF they carnt do uPACKS THANW HO CARES :yeah:

...About 75% of the fans (and more than half the people on this forum)
:DL

[The General]

They've already said their gonna do A.I. Wolfpacks, so there is no controversy here really.

[GoldenRivet]

They've already said their gonna do A.I. Wolfpacks, so there is no controversy here really.

source?

they have said they will include AI U-boats... and that wolfpacks are something they want to include but have doubts about being able to implement them before release date.

[JScones]

Secondly, whilest it will be a nice part of the game, you will still be hunting alone 90% of the time.

Having Wolfpacks is not going to turn SHV into a Naval RTS or a Squad based naval sim.
I think some folks are reading too much in to it.
Wha? You mean I won't have a wingman or third point throughout my entire career?

Seriously, you are so right. And I think the devs are between a rock and a hard place with this: if they implement wolfpacks realistically then the "I don't know what wolfpacks really are but I know I must have them" guys (which, based on posts here at Subsim, seems the majority) will complain in droves: "it's December 1939 and I still haven't been part of a wolfpack yet! When will I see other subs? And when will I get other subs to command?".

Personally, I can't wait for the "This is so wrong! I spent 20 minutes lining up a kill and another sub took it! This has to be a bug! I hate Wolfpacks!" posts, LOL!

[THE_MASK]

What would the modding possabilities[sp] be with AI subs ?

[JU_88]

What would the modding possabilities[sp] be with AI subs ?

Enemy Subs! :D
Would also make A playable DD mod alot more worthwhile.

[THE_MASK]

What about things like torpedo bombers that can drop a torp .

[difool2]

Personally, I can't wait for the "This is so wrong! I spent 20 minutes lining up a kill and another sub took it! This has to be a bug! I hate Wolfpacks!" posts, LOL!

Anyone who has that attitude is a big bloody baby.

[Arclight]

Anyone who has that attitude is a big bloody baby.
Perhaps, but those are the ones that cry the loudest. :haha:

[JU_88]

Anyone who has that attitude is a big bloody baby.

Agreed - the chances of an AI sub stealing your kill is so slim and its no worse than the way the luftwaffe steal your kills in SH3 on the odd occasion!


What about things like torpedo bombers that can drop a torp .

They had them in SHIV, PT boats with torpedos would be nice though :up:

[Méo]

Couldn't agree more, to me this is the critical difference between a simulation and a mere ''shooting game''

[mookiemookie]

They had them in SHIV, PT boats with torpedos would be nice though :up:

PT boats? Oh, you mean those harmless little things I use for AA gun practice?

[LTD1]

It would seem very strange if they , once again, skipped wolfpacks.
Much of the wolfpack- feel could be achieved with little more interactive BdU to subs, subs to BdU interaction alone.
Very well done radio traffic can play a significant part in creating a feel/illusion that payer isn't alone this time around.

[JU_88]

So long as we dont have to give the Wolf pack Arma II style orders though badly designed menus :haha:

"All ... ship.... unkown at... 11 o clock!"
"All.... move to.... that..... water!...."
"2,3,4.... attack... that CARGO!.... at 11 o clock"

(then while submerged)

"All, Disembark...."
"Oh No! 1 ............is down."
"Damn......... 2..........is down."
"DAmn! .....they got........3"

:woot:

[Vader 1]

Wha? You mean I won't have a wingman or third point throughout my entire career?

Seriously, you are so right. And I think the devs are between a rock and a hard place with this: if they implement wolfpacks realistically then the "I don't know what wolfpacks really are but I know I must have them" guys (which, based on posts here at Subsim, seems the majority) will complain in droves: "it's December 1939 and I still haven't been part of a wolfpack yet! When will I see other subs? And when will I get other subs to command?".

Personally, I can't wait for the "This is so wrong! I spent 20 minutes lining up a kill and another sub took it! This has to be a bug! I hate Wolfpacks!" posts, LOL!

So so true lol
I think GR has a real "doable" way with the spawing points and if you want the "Real" feel not everything will work out as you want

Vader

[Sailor Steve]

Of course me being me, I WANT the frustration! I WANT to see the convoy split up under a concerted attack. I WANT to lose track of all of them, then be frustrated when my search turns up nothing while I listen to radio reports of other uboats' successes. If it ain't frustrating, it ain't real.

[Elder-Pirate]

Of course me being me, I WANT the frustration! I WANT to see the convoy split up under a concerted attack. I WANT to lose track of all of them, then be frustrated when my search turns up nothing while I listen to radio reports of other uboats' successes. If it ain't frustrating, it ain't real.


What he said. ^^

Yep that works for me. :up:

[JScones]

Of course me being me, I WANT the frustration! I WANT to see the convoy split up under a concerted attack. I WANT to lose track of all of them, then be frustrated when my search turns up nothing while I listen to radio reports of other uboats' successes. If it ain't frustrating, it ain't real.
I'm with ya. Of course, I have never experienced a real Wolfpack situation but I could imagine, considering that Wolfpack coordination was largely undertaken 100's of miles away in a nice comfortable office and relayed by radio, that things got a bit chaotic out there.

Oddly, I seem to take enjoyment out of being frustrated. So the only person I'd blame if I saw my target exploding in front of me would be...me, for being too slow, lol.

Makes me wonder - does anyone have on hand how many u-boats were lost through collisions with other u-boats whilst undertaking Wolfpack operations?

[JU_88]

I'm with ya. Of course, I have never experienced a real Wolfpack situation but I could imagine, considering that Wolfpack coordination was largely undertaken 100's of miles away in a nice comfortable office and relayed by radio, that things got a bit chaotic out there.

Oddly, I seem to take enjoyment out of being frustrated. So the only person I'd blame if I saw my target exploding in front of me would be...me, for being too slow, lol.

Makes me wonder - does anyone have on hand how many u-boats were lost through collisions with other u-boats whilst undertaking Wolfpack operations?

Intreasting question, I dont think there were many though, didnt wolf packs mostly operate on the surface (at night?)
I think there were 2 Uboats that colided and sunk somewhere just south of Greenland.

Uboat losses by fate.

Ships 264
Aircraft 250
Aircraft & Ships * 37
Allied Submarines 22
Missing 52
Air raids on ports 43
Mines 35
Captured 3
Scuttled 238
Surrendered 155
Paid Off 37
Accidents 25
Other (+) 7

[looney]

wich I found very interesting was the relative low damage done to convoys thus also from wolfpacks!

look here: http://uboat.net/ops/convoys/convoys.php
total results: 1711 ships hit from 668 convoys.

[JScones]

And if you click on some of the links and find those attacks that were performed by wolfpacks (they are notated), you will notice many examples where the number of ships sunk in the convoy was equal to or less than the number of u-boats in the wolfpack that attacked...certainly torpedoing the romantic belief that wolfpacks were crap shoots. ;)

And some stories show very well the risks involved with wolfpacks.

[Castout]

Silent Hunter V must have AI wolfpacks if not it's like saying no alcohol allowed in bar.

[MRV]

Actually I dont get what would be so difficult to do about this.

For spawning: The game knows how much u-boat bases germany has at a certain time. From these, lets say 3 or 4 U-Boats are on patrol at one time, they are issued a random patrol grid based on historical data just like SH3 commander did with the player. After 3 or 4 weeks they return and sail out again (not all at the same time.) while it wouln't be necessary to have action going on with them if the player sub isn't close. All this is an internal calculation of the game, a mixed version of the scripted task force movements we know from SH3 and 4 and random generated routes. So on a good day you could have around 15 U-Boats west of england. ;-)

As soon as you spot a convoy, you could report it, shadow it and wait for the AI subs to react if they are close enough, replying with the grid where they are so you have a basic idea from which side they will attack. With some luck, you have 2 or 3 U-Boats attacking a convoy with you.

About the tactical AI of a sub: it was done before, Destroyer Command had enemy subs which fired torpedoes and were going deep afterwards, same applies in a simplyfied way to Enigma: RT.

can't be that hard to do.....

[looney]

@MRV

That would be correct if the game was a RL simulation... but it's a game. Thus there will be many more convoys on the map than RL. As such the number of AI controlled Uboats need to be higher also. Cause they will meet many more convoys than happened during the war.

[kptn_kaiserhof]

well the mod devs have made it possible in sh3

[looney]

Hmm I never saw that :) I agree that the mods on SH3 where v ery good but no added AI subs which could compete with us.

[tomfon]

i think wolfpacks are easy to do but hard to manage because they already have the ability in sh4 to call for air support and a plane shows up after a little while so switch the plane out for a few AI controlled u-boats and theres your wolfpack.

i cant see them doing a detailed thing where you have to tell them what to do or plan the attack for them. that would ruin the game in my opinion which is about "you and your crew" not a fleet of subs you push buttons to control or send orders out to like some admiral sitting behind a desk.

instead of the wolfpack showing up on your location like planes do (because planes are fast enough to do that) you should have to give a course and speed of convoy and get a return message of something like "wolfpack will meet you at grid xyz, shadow and report any course changes" weather delays or something could randomly fubar the ambush and you go it alone.


I totally agree.

I am not an expert in game development but in my humble opinion the real issue -as far as the implementation of wolfpacks is concerned- is not the technical part - i.e. how to do it/is it possible? - but the way the player interacts with this game aspect. Finding the course and speed of the convoy, sending the data to BdU and waiting for orders would make the game fantastic. Of course, the way the convoy and its destroyers counter-react is something that has to be handled with care ...as you have already mentioned. Personally, for the time being, i'm waiting for Ubi to give the green light for wolfpacks in SHV. The more the announcement is pending, the more the possibility of including them decreases ...most unfortunately.

[Méo]

I totally agree.

Finding the course and speed of the convoy, sending the data to BdU and waiting for orders would make the game fantastic. Of course, the way the convoy and its destroyers counter-react is something that has to be handled with care ...as you have already mentioned. Personally, for the time being, i'm waiting for Ubi to give the green light for wolfpacks in SHV. The more the announcement is pending, the more the possibility of including them decreases ...most unfortunately.

Agreed.

Good post. :up:

[looney]

I don't think the problem is the "planes", but the effect of the "planes" on the theatre of war. The effect of the subs should be calculated also. thus we get more variables: location, kills, attacks made, attacks suffered, chanche of spotting a convoy (weather related), random accidents, random encouters etc etc etc..

Those factors make it hard. A plane only around for a few moments and isn't that important as such. Also as there is no direct interaction between subs (only my megaphone and strobe light), there is no real need for AI subs.

P.s. I just read Iron coffins (great book) and it seems they could learn a lot from the actions of companion subs (I mean they would hear DC attacks torpedoes etc etc). I found the number of attacks they suffered extremely high (outbound and inbound from brest, about 4-8 a day as long as they would be in the bay).

[thruster]

my understanding is that in RL hunting uboats almost never met. so can someone explain why this isnt good enough or wouldnt work:
you see a convoy- you radio its position.>random radio traffic generated.> attacks randomly generated against your convoy at different areas. more radio calls made = more attacks generated. this means escorts randomly get diverted and attack an area hence freeing you up for an attack. obviously huff-duff makes it dangerous to make radio calls as the war progresses. or;
you pick up either the random depth charging of a distant convoy or random radio calls from supposed other boats.

its just a question of random event generation. if you want to see other boats, then they can be presented as just another skimmer, is it a friendly or enemy?

i think the real opportunity for actual visuals would be some sort of animated sequence for milkcow meetings mid atlantic.

[JU_88]

my understanding is that in RL hunting uboats almost never met. so can someone explain why this isnt good enough or wouldnt work:
you see a convoy- you radio its position.>random radio traffic generated.> attacks randomly generated against your convoy at different areas. more radio calls made = more attacks generated. this means escorts randomly get diverted and attack an area hence freeing you up for an attack. obviously huff-duff makes it dangerous to make radio calls as the war progresses. or;
you pick up either the random depth charging of a distant convoy or random radio calls from supposed other boats.

its just a question of random event generation. if you want to see other boats, then they can be presented as just another skimmer, is it a friendly or enemy?

i think the real opportunity for actual visuals would be some sort of animated sequence for milkcow meetings mid atlantic.

probabaly would work but i would geuss it is easier to code an AI sub, than it is to script these random events then put something in place to ensure Escorts respond in a convincing manner to the presence of ghost Uboats.

The Escort Ai has to determine, what to attack and how to attack it 7 when to give up... etc
What you discribe would almost be on par with an AI uboat without a 3d model attached.
To external camera users it will look like it is a horrible bug!
unless i have misunderstood....

[thruster]

thanks Ju88, im not sure how it would look like a bug?
-if a random 'uboat attack(s)' was generated in response to your radioing, it would present as 1 or more ships in the convoy suddenly being hit. thats what youd see if you were actually there. the escorts would be diverted to the relevent area and go thru an attack sequence. this is what would happen, and also allows sudden holes to present in the escort screen. also, there mustve been numerous examples of escorts simply depthcharging empty water because they were spooked, how cool would it be to track an unseen contact by that method!?
as the uboat driver, theres in RL nothing to see in a wolfpack, just radio traffic and its random effects; so simply randomly generate it accordingly?
-if you really want to see another submarine, include them presented as a skimmer like any other ship. if multiple classes are modelled then only when you get close is it possible to ID it as friendly or not. how cool to torpedo an enemy sub!
-the real eye candy prize would be milkcows. actually formateing with another mid atlantic would be awesome. the easiest way would i guess be to have an animated sequence, where at certain stages in that sequence you could be attacked. the milkcow sub has certain predetermined options in response and you do what you want in your uboat. is that too hard?

i look fwd to your thoughts. cheers.

[JU_88]

thanks Ju88, im not sure how it would look like a bug?
-if a random 'uboat attack(s)' was generated in response to your radioing, it would present as 1 or more ships in the convoy suddenly being hit. thats what youd see if you were actually there. the escorts would be diverted to the relevent area and go thru an attack sequence. this is what would happen, and also allows sudden holes to present in the escort screen. also, there mustve been numerous examples of escorts simply depthcharging empty water because they were spooked, how cool would it be to track an unseen contact by that method!?
as the uboat driver, theres in RL nothing to see in a wolfpack, just radio traffic and its random effects; so simply randomly generate it accordingly?
-if you really want to see another submarine, include them presented as a skimmer like any other ship. if multiple classes are modelled then only when you get close is it possible to ID it as friendly or not. how cool to torpedo an enemy sub!
-the real eye candy prize would be milkcows. actually formateing with another mid atlantic would be awesome. the easiest way would i guess be to have an animated sequence, where at certain stages in that sequence you could be attacked. the milkcow sub has certain predetermined options in response and you do what you want in your uboat. is that too hard?

i look fwd to your thoughts. cheers.

i dont quite follow - maybe a dumb question on my part but: what is a 'skimmer'?

[thruster]

hi Ju88,
a 'skimmer' is the term given by submariners (Aussie ones anyway; unless ive stuffed it up) to mean a surface vessel.
so, if you wanted subs in your program, just make it like any other ship in the game that crosses your path. i guess a sub running on the surface could suddenly disappear aswell; as if it submerged.

[JScones]

a 'skimmer' is the term given by submariners (Aussie ones anyway; unless ive stuffed it up) to mean a surface vessel.
You didn't stuff it up - it's still an "affectionate" term used by Aussie Submariners (and presumably others). Check out http://www.upperiscope.com.au/ for some subtle Aussie "digging". :up:

[Webster]

well here in the gulf coast we know the "skimmer" as this: (see picture on page 4)

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/pdfs/strategy/ms_trawl_gear.pdf

[JU_88]

hi Ju88,
a 'skimmer' is the term given by submariners (Aussie ones anyway; unless ive stuffed it up) to mean a surface vessel.
so, if you wanted subs in your program, just make it like any other ship in the game that crosses your path. i guess a sub running on the surface could suddenly disappear aswell; as if it submerged.

I see, but why? It is not difficult to code a sub to dive / surface and lauch eels. It has been done before many times. plus we had that in SH3/4 Im hoping we can make an advance.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

I just hope I don't get hit by an acoustic active torpedo lauched by an AI Uboat, during convoy hunting.

But one thing that would be cool as hell is trying to escape a bunch of destroyer with another uboat near you.

Maybe even tap the hull to send messages in morse-code... :P

"Go left and I'll go right... deploy bold on my signal..."

[JScones]

I just hope I don't get hit by an acoustic active torpedo lauched by an AI Uboat, during convoy hunting.

But one thing that would be cool as hell is trying to escape a bunch of destroyer with another uboat near you.

Maybe even tap the hull to send messages in morse-code... :P

"Go left and I'll go right... deploy bold on my signal..."
You know, there was a time a few years ago when people would have laughed at this recognising it as an obviously humourous comment. Now, it seems hard to tell the difference between deliberate jokes and serious requests. ;)

[Philipp_Thomsen]

You know, there was a time a few years ago when people would have laughed at this recognising it as an obviously humourous comment. Now, it seems hard to tell the difference between deliberate jokes and serious requests. ;)

Im old gang...

My mind still belong to those "few years ago" that you mentioned.

When I first met this community, people here were a lot more humorous.

Nowdays, huh... seems to be 10% of what it was before, everybody is serious and good jokes just go down the drain.

Maybe people are miserable after SH4 failure, and are waiting for a reason to be happy again.

Me? Im always happy! :D

[JU_88]

Im old gang...

My mind still belong to those "few years ago" that you mentioned.

When I first met this community, people here were a lot more humorous.

Nowdays, huh... seems to be 10% of what it was before, everybody is serious and good jokes just go down the drain.

Maybe people are miserable after SH4 failure, and are waiting for a reason to be happy again.

Me? Im always happy! :D


Hey PT, Maybe in March you can start the official 'homourous SHV screenshots' thread - If you don't I will :D

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Hey PT, Maybe in March you can start the official 'homourous SHV screenshots' thread - If you don't I will :D

LOL!

I don't know if Im starting the threat... but sure Im posting pics on it! :up:

[Dave Kay]

That happens to be exactly what I am expecting when thinking about wolfpacks ingame. Hope for more, but at least that.

HERE! HERE! That is EXACTLY what I am expecting TOO--- from Rudel-Taktic! Historically speaking, when BDU directed a sufficient number of boats to a reported convoy location, the shadowing boat(s) were then released to attack---- nothing more! No further communication was needed... unless perhaps... you might want to share one of those Becks beers under the Captains bunk with your fellow commanders/crews afterward... what a simple and effective concept!

[Dave Kay]

I see, but why? It is not difficult to code a sub to dive / surface and lauch eels. It has been done before many times. plus we had that in SH3/4 Im hoping we can make an advance.

An SHIII incident that comes to my mind, and perhaps others have experienced this: while stalking a freighter off the coast of southern Norway, early 1940-ish, I submearged my boat, swung into position preparing to launch an eel when out of nowhere along came a pair of Stukas' dive-bombing my target---- which they sunk quite nicely!

TWO QUESTIONS: Is there any reason why this type of AI behaviour could NOT be coded into AI Uboats in SHV? Would a concerted wolfpack attack be no more complicated than that?

[LiveGoat]

Don't know if this has been mentioned and I'm a rube when it comes to programming but could the wolfpack thing be done in an abstract dice roll sort of way by the game without 3d NPC subs?

Example: You spot a convoy and report it to BdU (or Bdu sends you a report) as you track the convoy the computer rolls to see how many subs show then rolls for attacks then just "sinks" the targets that are hit. I mean how often did U-boats actually visually contact each other anyway during wolfpack attacks? Anyway sorry if this has already been brought up.

[Méo]

I mean how often did U-boats actually visually contact each other anyway during wolfpack attacks?

There's a HUGE difference between RARE but POSSIBLE visual contact and IMPOSSIBLE visual contact.

Imagine if your proposition would be applied to large warships? In SH3 large warships encounters were rare but not impossible!

IMHO, UBI must have higher ambition than just create ''factitious wolfpacks''.

The game would be much more alive and lot more interactive. Thus the longevity of the game would be significantly increased. :yep:

If they don't have time for this now, then they should be seriously considering an add-on or something.