View Full Version : Tracking an evading target and wire-guiding?
Hey all, just thought I'd post this question in case anyone here is still bothering to talk about tactical issues.
I am wonder how best to TMA a target's evasion for wire-guidance. I have recently gotten pretty good at obtaining a manual firing solution, generally using just the towed array, but unless I can fire from the opposite side of a layer, the target begins evading very early after I fire. The way I figure most people counter this is by tracking the target and re-steering the weapon(s), but I am having trouble tracking the target once it begins high speed maneuvers.
I generally have a DEMON contact by the time I fire, so I usually watch this screen as the first indication of when the target begins evading. As soon as this happens, I put a marker on the nav map where he currently is. Once his speed has topped off I punch that into the TMA screen and lock it. I then wait for new lines and here's where I start having trouble. I've only been studying TMA for about two or three months and so I'm not really sure what to do with the information I get.
So here is a bit of a ragtag bag of questions in no particular order. How do I tell if he is on an opening or closing course? Once I've gotten two new lines, can I use the last NON-EVADING line as a third? Once I start the evasion tracking, I usually set the TMA time scale the the shortest possible to clear what is now inapplicable data of my screen, is this alright or do I actually need those older LOBs? Should I be doing all this at all or should I be tracking/guiding directly from sonar data?
Any help would be great!
goldorak
09-30-09, 03:15 PM
Ok first things first. If a contact is evading you sure as hell don't want to waste time doing a tma on him during this phase.
Lets suppose you had a correct tma, and the moment you launch a torpedo he goes evasive.
Now you know what his position, speed and course is at this moment, mark it on the navmap.
Then go in the sonar station and look wether the contact has launched countermeasures. If yes mark them with a tracker. Countermeasures don't move so with 2 bearing lines you'll get the position of the cm and therefore a very precise estimate on where your prey is.
Next, go to the broadband and search for the contact. Look at what the track is doing. If his bearing line goes in one direction and then goes in the opposite direction he has inverted course.
Next, you have uuvs use them. If the contact is near a uuv can be really handy.
Last if everything else fails use active sonar. Ping the hell out of him and steer the torpedos his way. Don't give him time to react. Be sure to place yourself on a lag course before initiating an attack.
OKAY! Good **** man, thanks alot. Good to see this forum isn't completely useless.
I've got a few questions. First, can you detect active decoys on narrowband? The bearing to contact gets way too cluttered to on broadband for tracking of any one contact. If the target began evading immediately, it would actually be easier, but by the time he does start to evade, my torpedoes are on the same bearing and blanking him out on BB. Second, how do you tell using just sonar whether the contact is closing or opening course. This information has proven very important as sometimes the AI does seem to travel at high speed on a closing course even though this doesn't seem like a logical evasion pattern. One time he did manage to slip right past my torpedo while it was snaking in the opposite direction. Finally, how do you effectively use active? I can get range by listening for when the ping return happens, but unless the target is closer than about 4000m I can't see him at all on the screen.
By the way, in case this info is relevant, I am using a fully up to date RA mod (1.0 with all patches) on DW 1.04. I've been driving either the Akula or Lada and firing UGSTs.
I have recently gotten pretty good at obtaining a manual firing solution, generally using just the towed array It's great isn't it!!! :D I've been doing manual TMA using the TA since 688I came out and accurate manual solutions really make you appreciate the sim that much more. if you are proficient with manual TMA in this fashion, the akula offers unmatched flexibility that will easily make up where TMA lacks, usually in the case of evasion and new data at different speeds.
Once his speed has topped off I punch that into the TMA screen and lock it. I then wait for new lines and here's where I start having trouble. I've only been studying TMA for about two or three months and so I'm not really sure what to do with the information I get.this is the beauty of the akulas weapons deployment system. to compensate, fire what are known as a 'bracket', 'triangle' or 'box' salvos. Designate these salvos to your outer tubes. And actually the evading contact will be doing you a favor simply by closing the distance to itself and the soon-to-be location of the asw torp. for a more aggressive follow-up.. fire a internal tube spread on the target soon as the asw torps hit the water; good chance he won't be sitting still at this point. But if he is running, he is not listening.. meanwhile ping em, match bearing and readjust..
If its a torpedo run(I.E. 688), you'll need to get in as close as possible for your initial attack and reduce the chances of a successful evasion. Under these circumstances, fire a torpedo spread over his bearing.. The spread angle is inversely proportional to range.. meaning the farther the contact is, the smaller the spread angle, and vice versa.. If you can, fire from the target AFT section as best as possible, and there are two reasons for this..1 - if the target tries a lateral evasion, making a course change will delay his evasion and give your fish more time to reach target. the time delay is due to a brief loss of momentum on a turn(course change) to an evasion course and ramp-up to flank.. hopefully you'll bag em before full momentum is restored.. 2.. if the target returns fire, he will need time to steer his fish on your bearing, thus giving you more time to evade.. also depending on the mod, active intercept has a baffle area, so the target won't hear your active fish closing.
So here is a bit of a ragtag bag of questions in no particular order. How do I tell if he is on an opening or closing course? you said you usually have DEMON on your initial salvo. Well if he is closing then you will see more DEMON lines appear and grow in amplitude (brightness), when you see this, he is closing. to confirm closure, use other sonar arrays that were not picking him up before and see if he is showing up on those as well. Of course the situation is opposite of he is opening, (DEMON losing lines, amplitude growing weaker, other arrays losing contact.
Any help would be great!hope it helps and leads you to new more effective tactics and strategies..
:salute:
Molon Labe
09-30-09, 06:02 PM
You're already going about prosecution very intelligently, so you're in good shape from the start. My advice for improving what you've got now is to simply assume that the target is evading at a right angle to the LOS at the time for firing for TMA purposes. This solution will represent the maximum bearing deviation the target can achieve, which means the target will be between that solution and the initial solution. Checking the current bearing will give you some more useful information and theoretically reduces your solution to two points, provided you have an evasion speed. As for opening vs. closing, you can check if signal strength is increasing by checking the # of narrowband lines or how clearly the lines are showing in DEMON.
Also, keep in mind it's much easier to get sphere/hull array contacts on an evading target than it was before he went evasive. You might be able to get some triangulation going, which will help a great deal with telling if he's opening or closing.
Brilliant stuff, thank's suBB. In fact it's a lot to digest before I start asking too many more questions, but...
How do you use DEMON strength to determine closing/opening course if he is also accelerating? Don't the lines tend to get thinker no matter what if his speed is increasing? Likewise using other arrays, he tends to appear on all my arrays as soon as he starts to really put the hammer down. I'm pretty good at determining opening/closing while building my firing solution, but once he starts evading I can't tell anymore.
I am so fixated on the opening/closing thing because, like I said, I've had enemy (AI) subs run at a very acute angle toward my torpedoes. If I don't detect this and enable the fish sooner than my RTE, he sometimes can get close enough to slip past once they start snaking. It's only happened once to me, but I mean to see it doesn't happen again. (That evasive tactic is called 'crazy Ivan' right?)
I just started playing around with a scenario using the Kilo Improved for primative ASW against old diesel boats like the Daphne. In some ways it's actually easier. For instance, I don't have to wait for the TA to stabilize after a turn. The really hard part is that I can't get DEMON data until the target is WAY too close, close enought that I should have had an accurate solution by that point, so I pretty much have to do TMA without speed data. I've also been trying to use the USET-80 instead of the TEST-71 because of it's speed and range advantages, but using non-wired torpedoes is much more difficult. I end up using all six tubes loaded with USETs to destroy a single target. I do a lot of intercept calculation and use that range to spread inversion you were talking about and still only one torp, sometimes two, will actually lock on to the target.
Anyway, just throwing more thoughts and questions out there. Thanks again both of you for your quick and informative responses.
Hey Molon Labe, I guess we posted at the same time cause I missed yours. THANK YOU for the advice about the triangulation, I cannot believe I had not thought of that. I feel like a complete dumbass since it now seems like the most obvious way to track him.
On the other hand, now that I'm playing with the Kilo, I doubt there's enough difference between the two arrays to triangulate with so I'm basically back to where I was. It's a bit different from SSN combat, but I'm dealing with putting a slower moving torpedo on a slover moving target at closer range, so things pretty much even out.
goldorak
09-30-09, 06:44 PM
You can triangulate using uuvs. :D
This is true, but in Kilo you only have 18 weapons (including tube loaded) and if I'm expecting more than two targets even one UUV will take away an indespensible weapon.
The scenario I built is pretty basic, but it's great fun to play with for practice. I have a Kilo Improved patroling about 20 nm from the Port of Karachi at about 4 kts. There are from one to three Daphne class subs and a very low probability Agosta generated at the beginning in a random box about 15 nm wide around the Kilo. All enemy subs are at different speeds and different depths and use 'random box' as tactic. I also threw in a few randomly generated merchants just for the hell of it.
The Kilo's sonar is so much weaker than all the other subs I've driven that even though the environmental conditions are just about as good as they can be (except for the bottom limited SSP) I can only pick up the a sub at about 10 nm if he is traveling at more than 5 kts. TMA is proving quite a bit harder without speed data. Especially since the subs always seem to be generated with a course that is more or less pointed right at me making the LOBs very close together.
goldorak
09-30-09, 07:29 PM
This is true, but in Kilo you only have 18 weapons (including tube loaded) and if I'm expecting more than two targets even one UUV will take away an indespensible weapon.
Yes, but a single UGST should be enough to sink the Daphne or the Agosta. And don't forget that uuv give you a tactical advantage, either when tracking a sub (since you don't have a towed array), and when you're evasive since at that point you will be completely deaf. With the uuv you can still make sure no torpedo is coming you way, and if yes you can pinpoint its location acurately by using the uuv active sonar. So the tradeoff between carrying 2 UGST and 1 UGST + uvv leans heavily versus the second option.
And if you have to attack 2 targets at the same time, use the UGST on one, and a non wireguided torpedo on the other. Kilos also carry subrocs don't they ? So use them they are quite usefull weapons.
The scenario I built is pretty basic, but it's great fun to play with for practice. I have a Kilo Improved patroling about 20 nm from the Port of Karachi at about 4 kts. There are from one to three Daphne class subs and a very low probability Agosta generated at the beginning in a random box about 15 nm wide around the Kilo. All enemy subs are at different speeds and different depths and use 'random box' as tactic. I also threw in a few randomly generated merchants just for the hell of it.
The Kilo's sonar is so much weaker than all the other subs I've driven that even though the environmental conditions are just about as good as they can be (except for the bottom limited SSP) I can only pick up the a sub at about 10 nm if he is traveling at more than 5 kts. TMA is proving quite a bit harder without speed data. Especially since the subs always seem to be generated with a course that is more or less pointed right at me making the LOBs very close together.
Yes the Kilo sonar is quite weak. On the other hand, merchants and other surface traffic should be tracked by using periscope and esm.
Since the Kilo only has 2 trackers, use them for sub contacts where the other sensors are useless. But don't do a tma of a surface vessel using sonar, it just complicates your work.
Also by using uuv, you can cut down on the tma process, because triangulation will give you the exact solution without having to estimate speed or go into several legs to obtain a firing solution. Oh and use those subrocs !!!
How do you use DEMON strength to determine closing/opening course if he is also accelerating?
here some logical conditions I've learned about DEMON and threat anticipation(I'd like to think of it that way)
initial state: the threat is at cruise speed of X knots, and has been detected by you, you have BB contact and firing solution, DEMON waterfall is depicting TPK data and lines are spaced.. speed from TPK should coincide with the following conditions.
IF DEMON waterfall = expanding, threat is accelerating
IF DEMON waterfall = contracting, threat is decelerating
IF DEMON waterfall = contracting and disappears = threat rigged all stop or changed layer
IF DEMON waterfall = brighter in color, lines are widening, number of lines increasing (7 max for subs), threat closing
IF DEMON waterfall = darker in color, lines growing narrow, number of lines decreasing, threat opening
*all conditions in combination to determine intentions of the threat..
Once you reach your conclusion based on the info your threat is giving you, plot a counter strategy & attempt for a master solution.. but if its a DM style scenario and you know the 1st contact on your TA is hostile, plot solution(TA only), engage, keep the target under pressure and close the distance for a better solution(attempted master)
I'm pretty good at determining opening/closing while building my firing solution, but once he starts evading I can't tell anymore. I think it really depends on the weapons you are using. All that matters is who can get weapons on target the fastest w/o getting hit. Akulas(Sturgeon, Virgina, SSKs with TAs in RA mod) will be your prime candidates for that. Soon as he starts evading you'll start losing contact and will need to regain if completely lost. If the oppty presents itself, try to pursue at optimal speed while he is deaf and running. when he starts to ramp down to a reasonable speed where he can hear again, rig all stop and refine your solution. Hopefully the SSP type can assist your further in your approach. Worst case go active and readjust wire-guided as goldorak suggested.
If I don't detect this and enable the fish sooner than my RTE, he sometimes can get close enough to slip past once they start snaking. I need to ask, what sub are you using.. because this situation can be handled differently based on the sub you are driving. Soon as you tell me what sub you like to drive then I can better be of assistance.
I just started playing around with a scenario using the Kilo Improved for primative ASW against old diesel boats like the Daphne. In some ways it's actually easier. I'm sorry I can't help you with diesels, TLAM strike and molon(i think goldorak also) are diesel men and probably can provide better advice than I could. I've had intentions on learning diesels but haven't done that yet. My impression of diesels is they are not made for ASW and the only time you'll get wind of a nuke is up close and personal. AFAIC, Diesels don't have enough up-ramp and speed to clear bearing quickly. Your best attempt against a nuke is a coordinated effort with air support or a listening platform, or ambush based on intelligence data.
Unfortunately the Kilo can't load UGSTs. The Russian Kilos have the USET-80 while the Chinese Kilos have the Yu-3, both have the TEST-71 (the only wire-guided torp they can load). I was wrong about the USET-80 in RA. While it is 8 kts faster than the TEST-71 and it has a 95 kg heavier wear, it's range is actually shorter by 1.5 km. The Yu-3, while having a 45 kg heavier warhead than the TEST is just as slow and has a 5.74 km range disadvantage.
The Russian Kilo can carry the Starfish subrock and any Club capable Kilo can carry the SS-N-27 ASW variant, but because detection range is so short I usually don't have a solution until the target is less than 15 km away. Also, the water is pretty shallow where I'm playing (Karachi Bay), though I'm not actually sure of the actual depth. I haven't tried any subrocs yet, but I seem to remember someone saying they didn't work in shallow water. Does anyone remember exactly what the minimum depth is?
goldorak
09-30-09, 09:53 PM
Actually thanks to the parachute, subrocs in RA can enter pretty shallow waters. 100 ft deep water should pose no problem to SSN-27-ASW.
In any case try, no one is going to bite you. :haha:
UUVs are poor man's towed array. They are also useful when you are evading, as they can report incoming torpedo position.
Molon Labe
10-01-09, 11:17 AM
How do you use DEMON strength to determine closing/opening course if he is also accelerating? Don't the lines tend to get thinker no matter what if his speed is increasing? Likewise using other arrays, he tends to appear on all my arrays as soon as he starts to really put the hammer down. I'm pretty good at determining opening/closing while building my firing solution, but once he starts evading I can't tell anymore.
SuBB's got some useful information on that point...
IF DEMON waterfall = expanding, threat is accelerating
IF DEMON waterfall = contracting, threat is decelerating
IF DEMON waterfall = contracting and disappears = threat rigged all stop or changed layer
IF DEMON waterfall = brighter in color, lines are widening, number of lines increasing (7 max for subs), threat closing
IF DEMON waterfall = darker in color, lines growing narrow, number of lines decreasing, threat opening
The thing to keep in mind is that the initial increase in SL from speeding up is going to increase signal strength received, which has an impact on the brightness of the DEMON contact, the thickness of a BB contact, the number of lines/brightness in a NB contact, SNR, etc etc. Once that happens, if these cues continue to strengthen, then he's getting closer. These do tend to be subtle cues so you might not pick up on them for several minutes.
In some cases, it might be useful to use another TMA leg. As a general rule you should be starting a new leg shortly after any course change by the target. During evasion, I'd go with 4 minutes so you get two lines on your original course. So again, it's going to take several minutes to tack it down but it's another tool in the box.
If you're using a diesel for ASW, to hell with one-shot-one kill finesse. Russians always fire at least two of anything they use anyways. If you're torn between opening and closing, assume closing with the -71 and enable early, and shoot a -80 or a SUBROC to meet the opening course. And really, I wouldn't be afraid to use 4 or more weapons. The thing with the Kilo is that it's really hard to get into a firing position. You may never get a second shot, and even if you do it's going to be an order of magnitude more dangerous to take. I'd be less concerned about having weapons left over for another attack than I would be with making the first attack count. Like the attack pilots say, "one pass, haul ass."
Okay, I'm starting to get a handle on this. My deep thanks goes out to all of you for helping and in such a short time too. I've got a lot of down time right now because I'm sick with a pretty bad cold so I'm pretty much just reading books and playing DW. I'd like to think I'm improving pretty dramatically.
I've reduced the number of enemy subs in my Kilo scenario to two possible Daphnes and one possible Agosta. I've also begun using a number of USET-80s/Yu-3s in conjunction with a single TEST-71 per shot which allows me to use two rack spaces for UUVs. I still end up basically out of ammo if all three subs appear in the mission, but at least I always have enough to kill them all. On the other hand, the UUV makes tracking SO much easier that it almost takes all the challenge out of things. I may go back to storing only torpedoes or switching to the Iranian Kilo just to keep myself on my toes.
Another clear indication of a closing or opening contact is how the bearing rate changes with each new line. IF the target doesn't happen to be on a collision course or moving directly away.
A closing target shows an increasing bearing rate until it is at it's closest point. This is seen in TMA as expanding bearing fans. Angle-steps getting wider upto some maximum rate.
Opening targets have passed the closest point of approach (at some time in the past) and will show a bearingrate slowing down. The new bearings as they develop in TMA will start to narrow as it moves into the distance.
It's a bit tricky to see on SC/DW TMA plots because the bearing lines start at different places. In games situations like SH3/4 where you are waiting almost motionless for the target to pass infront of you it is very clear that the rate increases. Far away the sonar crew calls out bearing changes minutes apart, yet when very close he even skips a few degrees. If both subs are moving (like often in SC/DW situations) it becomes less clear, as it depends on how the the relative motion is directed in relation to you. And a change in rate could be the result of a course and speed change by the target. But if the target is pre-occupied by evading torpedos he better not change his mind too often on which direction to evade as that would slow him down.
Pisces, yes this is the method I most often use when building my initial firing solution. Unfortunately, when the target is evading he is usually accelerating and turning at the same time which makes this trick very difficult to use. The AI in RA does some weird stuff too like decelerating during evasion or turning toward the torpedoes. Makes for a fun time though.
If a contact makes a change in turn and speed quickly within 2 minutes (time between 2 bearings) then it is indeed difficult to estimate which way he is going to move. But if he's making a large turn also means he is sort of staying in one spot until he straightens his rudder. Meaning range doesn't change much in that interval.
When I notice a speed change in demon I estimate it's average speed during the last 2 minute interval and set that speed in the TMA panel. While keeping the last-but-one timemark of the ruler located on it's place on the bearing line (where it was projected to be by the TMA computer one time interval back) I adjust target course for the sollution until it fits with the newest bearing line. It's not as easy as it sounds, because the ruler rotates around the current solution location. So you have to move the older mark back a bit. That way my solution stays pretty solid and most of the times it results in a hit or kil. (but that is usually against AI, in MP it may not be so effective)
p.s. Never played RA yet.
Pisces, that advice was EXCELLENT! I've started watching the DEMON pretty much exclusively during the torpedo's run and it gives me quite a bit of information about what he's doing. Averaging the speed was a great idea as he does tend to accelerate and decelerate pretty erratically during his initial evasion. I'm combining this with what Molon Labe said about always assuming his is running perpendicular and I've been having tremendous success.
THANK YOU EVERYBODY! I'm sorry I ever thought this forum was dead.
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