He calls it racism...

[Skybird]

... and I think since quite a while now that that assessment is absolutely right. The level of totally derailed hostility and almost irrational hate tirades against Obama, comparing him to the worst criminals and massmurderes in the history of mankind, cannot be just differing opinion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8258011.stm

What you see in many pictures about opposition to Obama, his policy or his person, often is nothing else but unveiled hate. That Republicans line up with such sentiments tells you somethign about their political self-understanding and missionary spirit that makes them believe that they and only they have the right to hold power, and that voting against them is almost unnatural.

That there would be angry opposition to Obama, was to be expected. But that it reaches that far, would bturn so shamelessly public and unhidden, becomes so unforgivingly hostile and irrational and hysteric, is a big desillusionment about the United States's freedom and political culture.

One would wish that quite some Americans would live for one or two decades under a Stalin or Nazi regime or in a death camp and suffer from tyranny and supression. Just that they get an idea of what it is that they accuse Obama of.

Somebody who abuses his freedoms for such excesses as we see in the opposition to Obama, must accept the question if he is really ripe enogh to deserve them.

And no, I am no big Obama fan, I see his record so far very critically, and in parts as misled and dangerous. I always said he is a great speaker, but as a political acxtor is overestimated, so that he necessarily must fail. and in parts that is his own guilt, since he certainly helped to push expectations up beyond what was reasonable.

In germany, not few comparisons and hate-fiulled tirades that get fired would lead to persons ending at court, for incitement of the people, and slandering and character assassination.

[MothBalls]

And he's right.... It's been obvious since before the election. It just took someone with enough credibility and nothing to lose to finally say it. If anyone else stood up and said this it would be the end of their political career. He doesn't have one so he can say anything he wants.

The country really wasn't ready for anything other than the stereotypical President, an old white Christian male,.... until McCain picked Palin. Given that choice, he got elected because he was the lesser of two evils.

If Palin ends up running for president and her party nominates her, I'm gone. I'll go rent a room from Skybird and live in Germany.

[Oberon]

I predict thread nosedive in approximately three-four hours.

http://www.gearsandwidgets.com/external/wherethisthreadgoing.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

Wrong on two counts:

Skybird...it is not a racial thing with Obama...it is a to radical thing with Obama. He wants to change the entire face of the US in one fell swoop. He is spending like mad and it does not look like any thought is going into it. Congress approval rating is what 35%? Obama approval rating is what 54%? How then is this racial with an approval rating like this? There is a small segament in this society that we can equivically say is racist towards Obama. Then again every President had their detractors no matter what color they are. Pulling the race card with an approval rating over 50% does not make for good math....I take it with a grain of salt that Jimmy Carter is saying this. Jimmy is one of the top 5 worst presidents the US has had IMO.


The country really wasn't ready for anything other than the stereotypical President, an old white Christian male,.... until McCain picked Palin. Given that choice, he got elected because he was the lesser of two evils.


Not true...Obama outsmarted McCains camp. He played a good hand. Every major city in America was targeted. In the major cities live democrates who for the most part would not normally vote. Obama got them out to vote. He even got smart and used every major media outlet he could find. The most influential being the internet. He won because of his excellent feel good speeches. McCain had not much to offer but the old school politics. Obama is young, fresh and inspiring. These traits helped win the white house. Obama would have one even if McCain had George Washington as a running mate.

[August]

Gee, where was Skydivers moral outrage during 8 whole years of "Bush = teh hitlerz"?

[AVGWarhawk]

Gee, where was Skydivers moral outrage during 8 whole years of "Bush = teh hitlerz"?


From what I understand Germany is quite racial:



A black politician in Germany vowed Thursday to continue campaigning for Chancellor Angela Merkel (http://www.subsim.com/people/angela_merkel)'s party despite suffering racial abuse from far-right opponents.

http://www.blnz.com/news/2009/08/13/Black_politician_Germany_defy_racist_7244.html

[antikristuseke]

Racism is a global problem, no matter how much some people would like to close their eyes and pretend it is not an issue anymore. It may not be as open as it used to be, but it is still there.

[AVGWarhawk]

Racism is a global problem, no matter how much some people would like to close their eyes and pretend it is not an issue anymore. It may not be as open as it used to be, but it is still there.

Absolutely. I just find it funny when some sit on a high horse like none of the worlds ills happen in their neighborhood.

This article coming from a common peanut farmer done good by becoming a president. The world breathed easier when they dump him back in Plains Georgia after 4 years of his nonsense. See the Panama Canal lately? Oh never mind.

[antikristuseke]

Absolutely. I just find it funny when some sit on a high horse like none of the worlds ills happen in their neighborhood.

Agreed, but personally did not get this vibe in this thread.

[AVGWarhawk]

Agreed, but personally did not get this vibe in this thread.

I do not either but I felt compelled to point out that racism is global and not just a mainstay in the US.

[antikristuseke]

Same here, but just for ****s and giggles maybe we should argue about which one of us agrees with the other more on this specific thing.:hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

I certainly do not agree with Carter, Skybird or Mothballs. I think Wilson should had shut up out of respect for Obama and Congress...it is civil behavior to do so. Do I think this racial idea they are peddling is a stretch? Sure do.

[antikristuseke]

No i ment you and me on the issue that racism is a global issue.

[Tribesman]

From what I understand Germany is quite racial:

If it was quite racial then that party would reach the threshold in the national elections and get a seat , the threshold for political represntation in Germany is very low yet that bunch of neo-nazis don't even get close to it.
But since you raised a story about that particular party into the topic it comes nicely back to ya. They host an American politician at some of their meetings , he was a wizard once but not like Harry Potter, he even got elected to national government in the US as a republican , though when he ran again he didn't make the cut but was very pleased to boast that he got 55% of the white votes.

[AVGWarhawk]

No i ment you and me on the issue that racism is a global issue.

You lost me.

[antikristuseke]

You lost me.

Good, I was trying to make a funny, which seems to have not worked.

[Letum]

It would be naive to think that quiet racism doesn't exist or that it doesn't
exist amongst political representatives in such a way that it effects their
politics and that should certainly be spoken against when it can be clearly
identified.

That said, I think Carter is making a mistake by not being careful to avoid
mixing up issues of race with specific policies (i.e. H.C. Reform).
It makes the accusations of racism look like counter-arguments about the
policy they have got mixed up in. That's not good for the policy and it
cheapens the issue of racism.

[SteamWake]

Whipping out the race card smacks of desperation.

I saw plenty of black faces in the crowd at washington.

When people are jeeering at Harry Reid and Ms Pelosi I'm pretty sure there white.

Desperation at best.

[AVGWarhawk]

What is strange here is everyone is screaming racism yet Obama has accepted the apology and moved on. So tell me, get rid of Congress or Obama? I vote Congress! Everyone needs a BEER GATE at the White House!

If this is really construed as racism then no matter what anyone says to Obama that is negative will be construed as racism. I think Carter was out of bounds here.

[CastleBravo]

The protagonist of this fable is a bored ex-president who entertains himself by calling out "Racism!" People who hear of it come running, only to find the alarms are false and that they had wasted their time. When the ex-president is actually confronted by racism, the people will not believe his cries.

[SteamWake]

The level of totally derailed hostility and almost irrational hate tirades against Obama,


I think this perception is way out of line although I can see why you would feel that way seeing as how the media portrays the crowds.

In fact I have first hand knowledge of the crowds attitude at the washington march and I can say that it was not hostile nor irrational. In fact they were quite upbeat, friendly, and resolute.

Your being played, and played quite well I might add.

Besides its Jimmy Carter for christs sake. Where did they find him to trott out on this issue?

[AVGWarhawk]

The protagonist of this fable is a bored ex-president who entertains himself by calling out "Racism!" People who hear of it come running, only to find the alarms are false and that they had wasted their time. When the ex-president is actually confronted by racism, the people will not believe his cries.


Crying wolf as it were.

[AVGWarhawk]

Besides its Jimmy Carter for christs sake. Where did they find him to trott out on this issue?


Exactly. I would not look for advise from Carter on what laundry detergent to use. He is that bad and that out of touch not only when he ran the country into the ground for 4 years but even today.

[Thomen]

... and I think since quite a while now that that assessment is absolutely right. The level of totally derailed hostility and almost irrational hate tirades against Obama, comparing him to the worst criminals and massmurderes in the history of mankind, cannot be just differing opinion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8258011.stm

What you see in many pictures about opposition to Obama, his policy or his person, often is nothing else but unveiled hate. That Republicans line up with such sentiments tells you somethign about their political self-understanding and missionary spirit that makes them believe that they and only they have the right to hold power, and that voting against them is almost unnatural.

That there would be angry opposition to Obama, was to be expected. But that it reaches that far, would bturn so shamelessly public and unhidden, becomes so unforgivingly hostile and irrational and hysteric, is a big desillusionment about the United States's freedom and political culture.



Somebody who abuses his freedoms for such excesses as we see in the opposition to Obama, must accept the question if he is really ripe enogh to deserve them.



Welcome to the land of politcal double standards.. where one is a hero for displaying hostility against Bush and Israel, and a racist for criticing Obama. :nope:


Pictures from:

http://www.ringospictures.com/index.php?page=20090816


http://www.ringospictures.com/photos/20090816/1.jpg


http://www.ringospictures.com/photos/20090816/2.jpg


http://www.ringospictures.com/photos/20090816/4.jpg


http://www.ringospictures.com/photos/20090816/5.jpg


http://www.ringospictures.com/photos/20090816/120.jpg


http://www.ringospictures.com/photos/20090816/161.jpg

http://www.ringospictures.com/photos/20090816/173.jpg





And no, I am no big Obama fan, I see his record so far very critically, and in parts as misled and dangerous. I always said he is a great speaker, but as a political acxtor is overestimated, so that he necessarily must fail. and in parts that is his own guilt, since he certainly helped to push expectations up beyond what was reasonable.


And that, would make you for some on the fringe left a... wait for it... a racist. ;)

[AVGWarhawk]

Dang Thomen....you pretty much nailed it on the head. Double standard certainly. We will chalk it up to the long term memory loss that Americans seem to have inherited through the years. We will chalk it up to complete memory loss and babblings of an old man named Jimmy Carter.

[CastleBravo]

Someone has gone off the reservation when it comes to the narrative of what racism is all about. Oops, I used the word reservation.

[roman2440]

When I see a promenent democrat decry a republican outburst as racism, all I really see is a fearfull group that realizes that outburst has got their dream boy by the balls. I see a last ditch effort to detract from the validity of the outburst.

How can a character truth be racism? His outburst was not directed at a race. Also consider would that remark have been made if Obama was a white president touting the same healthcare plan? I think so. Just look to previous presidential speeches and outburst and other such shenanigans by both sides when the other side is in power. The outburst was a political move and not racially motivated at all.

This is the democrat bandwagon circling around defend one of their own. Trying to cover up truth about Obama's character and his long term intentions in this bill/speech, all in an effort to preserve the power of the democratic party.

[SteamWake]

Jimmay Carter = Prominent Democrat

Wow I knew they had troubles but ... just wow.

[AVGWarhawk]

OK, anyone who cares what Jimmy Carter says please raise your hand.

[CastleBravo]

Jimmay Carter = Prominent Democrat

Wow I knew they had troubles but ... just wow.

Lets give the man some credit. Jimmy Carter is often refered to as our worst president, and in that respect he is prominent.

[AVGWarhawk]

Lets give the man some credit. Jimmy Carter is often refered to as our worst president, and in that respect he is prominent.

Worked for peanuts.

[CastleBravo]

Carter is senile. And Racist himself. Video doesn't lie. 'This black boy'.

Flashback Video: Carter referred to Obama as 'this black boy'

http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/watercooler/2009/sep/16/flashback-video-carter-referred-obama-black-boy/

[AVGWarhawk]

Carter is senile. And Racist himself. Video doesn't lie. 'This black boy'.

Flashback Video: Carter referred to Obama as 'this black boy'

http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/watercooler/2009/sep/16/flashback-video-carter-referred-obama-black-boy/

God...I remember that one. Nice on Jimmy! Idiot....

[Thomen]

Carter is senile. And Racist himself. Video doesn't lie.

Flashback Video: Carter referred to Obama as 'this black boy'

http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/watercooler/2009/sep/16/flashback-video-carter-referred-obama-black-boy/

We had this discussion when he made that comment. AFAIR, the general consensus was that he did not mean it in any racist way.

[AVGWarhawk]

We had this discussion when he made that comment. AFAIR, the general consensus was that he did not mean it in any racist way.

Well..we had a dicussion on 'YOU LIE' and determined it was not racist. Certainly less credibility of being racists as compared to 'This black boy.' That is what makes this so incredibility stupid.

[CastleBravo]

We had this discussion when he made that comment. AFAIR, the general consensus was that he did not mean it in any racist way.

So its OK to call a black man 'boy'? Try that in your nieghborhood and see where that gets you?

“BOY” is not a term of affection, but a term of referring to a black male. The term became so offensive, that black jazz artists started referring to themselves as “MAN”. Thus the much used term MAN.

[Sea Demon]

... and I think since quite a while now that that assessment is absolutely right. The level of totally derailed hostility and almost irrational hate tirades against Obama, comparing him to the worst criminals and massmurderes in the history of mankind, cannot be just differing opinion.



Your analysis is some of the worst I've seen on this matter. It's utter nonsense really. The fact is, alot worse has been said about the previous President. And worse comparisons made. Even though I think comparing different Presidents to Germany's Hitler is not exactly appropriate, it's safe to say Obama is overreaching in many areas, and is attempting unnecessary fundamental changes not compatible with freedom or prosperity. More like mass government dependancy and welfare.

And it doesn't help with the people he's surrounded himself with. Communists (Van Jones), outright racists (Wright) and leftwing loonies (ala Cass Sunstein). It's the policy and people within ultimately that people are ticked off with. Your opinion on it is merely a diversion....and just outright nonsense.

This analysis is just crap. Yeah, I would be okay with these hideous Democrat policies if they were coming from a white man. :doh:

Get real dude.

[Thomen]

Well..we had a dicussion on 'YOU LIE' and determined it was not racist. Certainly less credibility of being racists as compared to 'This black boy.' That is what makes this so incredibility stupid.

Agreed.

[ETR3(SS)]

I know for a fact that in the Navy you CAN NOT call a black man "boy" or "son" because it is classified as being racist. And as for the "You lie!" outburst, he just said what we all knew anyways. Politicians lie, nothing new. As for Jimmy, I wonder what made Rickover decide that this guy could operate a nuclear reactor?

[AVGWarhawk]

As for Jimmy, I wonder what made Rickover decide that this guy could operate a nuclear reactor?


:har:

[CastleBravo]

I know for a fact that in the Navy you CAN NOT call a black man "boy" or "son" because it is classified as being racist. And as for the "You lie!" outburst, he just said what we all knew anyways. Politicians lie, nothing new. As for Jimmy, I wonder what made Rickover decide that this guy could operate a nuclear reactor?

He didn't quite get there..............

When Admiral Hyman G. Rickover (then a captain) started his program to create nuclear powered submarines, Carter wanted to join the program and was interviewed by Rickover. On 1 June 1952, Carter was promoted to Lieutenant. Selected by Rickover, Carter was detached on 16 October 1952 from K-1 for duty with the U. S. Atomic Energy Commission, Division of Reactor Development in Schenectady, New York. From 3 November 1952 to 1 March 1953, he served on temporary duty with the Naval Reactors Branch, U. S. Atomic Energy Commission, Washington, DC to assist "in the design and development of nuclear propulsion plants for naval vessels."

From 1 March to 8 October, Carter was preparing to become the engineering officer for the nuclear power plant to be placed in USS Seawolf (SSN 575), one of the first submarines to operate on atomic power. He assisted in setting up training for the enlisted men who would serve on Seawolf. During this time his father became very sick and died in July 1953. After his father's death in 1953, Carter resigned from the Navy to return to Georgia to manage the family interests. Carter was honorably discharged on 9 October 1953 at Headquarters, Third Naval District in New York City. On 7 December 1961, he transferred to the retired reserve with the rank of Lieutenant at his own request.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well Castle....might have been a good thing he did not get there! :03:

[ETR3(SS)]

He still made it past Rickover though.

[CastleBravo]

He still made it past Rickover though.

Most folks in the know respect Rickover. Can the same be said for Carter? I think not. And his recent use of the word 'boy' in reference to Mr. Obama, and calling disagreement with Mr. Obama's policies racist are by any standard anathima.

I would like to set out that it is a tactic first used by this administration during the Dr. Gates issue.

[AVGWarhawk]

Most folks in the know respect Rickover. Can the same be said for Carter? I think not. And his recent use of the word 'boy' in reference to Mr. Obama, and calling disagreement with Mr. Obama's policies racist are by any standard anathima.

I would like to set out that it is a tactic first used by this administration during the Dr. Gates issue.

Let's discuss this over a beer in the Rose Garden. :D

[AngusJS]

I don't think the reaction we're seeing is founded in racism. Instead, it's because of the right's irrational fear of any politics to the left of Ayn Rand. Thus, desperately needed health care reform becomes just another power grab by the government on the road to socialism. The fact that every other First World country has a health care system much more expansive than the system being proposed, and none of them have yet to descend into a Stalinist hell is irrelevant.

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't think the reaction we're seeing is founded in racism. Instead, it's because of the right's irrational fear of any politics to the left of Ayn Rand. Thus, desperately needed health care reform becomes just another power grab by the government on the road to socialism. The fact that every other First World country has a health care system much more expansive than the system being proposed, and none of them have yet to descend into a Stalinist hell is irrelevant.

Well....no...perhaps this is just a lie after all. Did anyone think about that? It would seem that Obama has changed his tune quite a bit since being elected. :hmmm:

[SteamWake]

I don't think the reaction we're seeing is founded in racism. Instead, it's because of the right's irrational fear of any politics to the left of Ayn Rand. Thus, desperately needed health care reform becomes just another power grab by the government on the road to socialism. The fact that every other First World country has a health care system much more expansive than the system being proposed, and none of them have yet to descend into a Stalinist hell is irrelevant.

Nah I think its more along the lines of this


Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., ripped into the health-care bill developed by Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mt., the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee.

The Baucus proposal would impose, starting in 2013, a 35 percent excise tax on insurance companies for "high-cost plans" -- defined as those above $8,000 for individuals and $21,000 for family plans.


http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/09/dem-senator-warns-of-big-big-tax-on-middle-class-in-baucus-bill.html

Now I do believe Mr. Rockefeller is slightly left of Ayn Rand.

[CastleBravo]

I don't think the reaction we're seeing is founded in racism. Instead, it's because of the right's irrational fear of any politics to the left of Ayn Rand. Thus, desperately needed health care reform becomes just another power grab by the government on the road to socialism. The fact that every other First World country has a health care system much more expansive than the system being proposed, and none of them have yet to descend into a Stalinist hell is irrelevant.

Are you saying?.........

It isn't healthcare reform. It is insurance, tort and, defensive medicine reform? healthcare as it stands is among the finest in the world, is it not?

Yet you look at a poll from doctors and it goes south very quickly.

45% Of Doctors Would Consider Quitting If Congress Passes Health Care Overhaul

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=506199

[AngusJS]

Are you saying?.........

It isn't healthcare reform. It is insurance, tort and, defensive medicine reform? healthcare as it stands is among the finest in the world, is it not?


I agree that we need tort reform. Our health care tends to be about average when compared with other OECD countries.

Yet you look at a poll from doctors and it goes south very quickly.

45% Of Doctors Would Consider Quitting If Congress Passes Health Care Overhaul

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=506199So it's dueling polls at 50 paces, is it? :DL

From the New England Journal of Medicine: 62% of doctors support the public option, and another 10% support pure public health care

http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1790#more-1790

[AngusJS]

Nah I think its more along the lines of this



http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/09/dem-senator-warns-of-big-big-tax-on-middle-class-in-baucus-bill.html

Now I do believe Mr. Rockefeller is slightly left of Ayn Rand.I meant opposition to the idea of government involvement in health care in general, regardless of the specifics.

It sounds like the only person who supports the Baucus plan is Baucus. Certainly fining people four grand for not having insurance without first making it affordable is asinine. But the insurance companies would sure love it. :DL

[CastleBravo]

Allow doctors, you kow those guys and gals who have spent so many years of their lives to stop practicing defensive medicine and treat their patients.

Introducing 37-47 million new patients into the system can do nothing more than introduce triage of the worst nature.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Racism is a belief of one race being superior over another.

That is not what is happening, scare mongering is however. Perhaps there is a racial tinge to some of the scare mongering, but by and large it's just plain old scare mongering. And that's just how American politics works.

PD

[Thomen]

"The president does not believe that the criticism... is based on the color of his skin," White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said today.


http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/09/wh-president-obama-disagrees-with-former-president-carter-that-most-animosity-towards-obama-is-raceb.html

[FIREWALL]

If all you've been ever trained to do is use a Hammer....

Everything then on looks like a Nail. :know:

[Sea Demon]

Instead, it's because of the right's irrational fear of any politics to the left of Ayn Rand. Thus, desperately needed health care reform becomes just another power grab by the government on the road to socialism.

Jeez. I get blue in the face with some of you here. :O: Republicans aren't your problem. Many Democrats are standing in the way, and are making any 'public option' (government option) totally impossible. That's your big indicator that the country as a whole doesn't want it. Republicans don't want it. Independents don't want it as their approval of Obama has plummeted to the floor. And many Democrat voters in various Democrat districts don't want it. And the Democrat Representatives in these districts are voting accordingly.

The fact that every other First World country has a health care system much more expansive than the system being proposed, and none of them have yet to descend into a Stalinist hell is irrelevant.The rest of the world has nothing that I want. In my opinion, they would be better off with real competition, private services, lower tax rates, and less government in total. And in my opinion, they have second rate care compared to ours anyway. In addition, some of the problems encountered in the UK and Canada and others are horrendous. No thank you. They can have it.

[Skybird]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/16/jimmy-carter-racism-barack-obama

Blog sites round the US attracted an unusually high volume of traffic today in the aftermath of Carter's claims and highlighted the rawness of the divide.
Carter, interviewed by NBC to mark his 85th birthday, said: "I live in the south, and I've seen the south come a long way, and I've seen the rest of the country that shared the south's attitude toward minority groups at that time, particularly African-Americans.

"And that racism inclination still exists. And I think it's bubbled up to the surface because of the belief among many white people, not just in the south but around the country, that African-Americans are not qualified to lead this great country. It's an abominable circumstance, and it grieves me and concerns me very deeply."

(...)

The Southern Poverty Law Centre, one of the main groups in the US tracking hate groups, today expressed 100% support for Carter. Mark Potok, who is director of the team investigating the hate groups, said: "I think what President Carter said is precisely what is going on. I am not saying that everyone involved in opposing health care reform is a Klansman in disguise but it is the elephant in the room."

His group has noted an increase in the number of hate groups, plots and racist incidents linked to Obama since he accepted the Democratic nomination to run for president last year.

I find many comments in this thread extremely alienating, and so seriously biased and ignorant towards the capital crimes of the Republicans in the past 30 years that it is worrying.

Carter got defeated by Reagan while the Republicans had arranged a deal with their claimed arch-enemy Iran that the hostages would not be released until the election had been held in the US, so that carter would not be able to enjoy a boost in votes when presenting successful solving the hostage issue. It were the same Republicans that under Reagan had the Iran-Contra-Deal and ordered the CIA to assist the Hunduran Contras to sell drugs in the US, mainly the West Coast, so that they would have the needed income to pay for the weapons America delivered to them, the US police was actively hindered to investigate.

that there is no and has not been public outrage over Republicans doing this, even half as intense as the tirades against Obama now, shows some worrying double standards, and dangerously derailed priority-setting in ethical assessment. Republicans claim to live by the values that made Bonanza so successful a TV show, an idyllic depiction of stereotyped American harmony regarding family, country, good-versus-evil, and God. but if the extatic hate against Obama and the heavily biased forgiveness for Republican crimes have any meaning beayond the obvious de,onstration of hate, then that they reveal much of the Republican claimed idyll of values and way of life as - hypocritic, and showacting only. the revealing of this hypocrisy started with the mud-throwing during the campaign. It got a face with this extremely vicious and vitriolic viper, Sarah Palin, and it found it's temporary climax in the Republican full blockade to Obama, no matter what he is doing or not doing, just for the sake of doing maximum damage to the man, at all cost, no matter the cost.

This selfunderstanding - is all the shining greatness in what the Republican's are about. In other words: no crime is too worse and no lie is too mean if it promises to help regaining power for the Republicans.

CB's attempt to score easily but foul by bringing up the long-solved, context-sensitive story of Carter calling Obama a black boy, is just an illustration of this general attitude. the issue has been dealt with, and not one second in time it ever was like CB tried to make it appear. It is known, and nobody should try to start trouble over it again. It is so obvious a manouver only.

[AVGWarhawk]

I find many comments in this thread extremely alienating, and so seriously biased and ignorant towards the capital crimes of the Republicans in the past 30 years that it is worrying.



What is worrying is the fact that this is a thread on racism but you catagorically pigeon hole Republicans here as being the culprit to it all. Really, look at the march on Washington 9/12. Several signs hoisted that stated they were worried Democrates.

"You lie" construed as racism is a stretch at best. I have stated this in this thread already. Everyone pulls the race card with exception of the offended...Obama. This is so unproductive and to take an entire day from the country to discuss what to do with Wilson is a waste of my time, tax money and a travesty. They need to get back to work for the country and unify it. This does nothing but create divide.

[Skybird]

"You lie"...?

It is not about a single symptom. It is about a phenomenon
that has mounted over several months now. And you know it.

Another symptom is that the constant rethorical, often bizarre crossfire of Republicans against Obama, plays no role for you. But that putting the Republican self-claimed and show-acted innocence into relation when reminding people of the immense crimes and failures of Republicans since the Reagan or Nixon era - gets described as pigeon-holing Republicans.

The Southern Poverty Law Centre is not the only institution having noticed a rise in racism and racist crimes in the US since Obama'S campaign began. In the past 12-18 months, I have read similiar news, sometimes with accompanying statistics illustrating it. It may be the reason why the US Secret Service has rated Obama to be the most threatened president ever. In June, there was an investigative documentary revealing that with Obama in office security operations of the Secret Service have massively grown in intensity (not meaning that this has not been already known before june) , and are on a level that has never been seen before, under any president. the threat level is higher, and the security concerns are bigger than ever before.

Obama has offered several invitations and compromises to the Republicans from the very beginning, trying to offer a hand for healing the polarised gap within america that Bush had left behind. And it has been the Republican party that in general and totally has rejected the invitation every time. And you want to tell us that the Democrats should unify your country...? Polarising it even more is seen as the Republican's recipe to minimise chances for Obama's presidency to be partially successful, and is seen as the best chance to prevent a second term of him. I have no doubt that this total blockade will continue, no matter the issue being discussed. He even could run Republican agendas know, they would get blocked, in order to damage him. It is called a policy of scorched earth. It does not matter what Obama does, or does not, and if he is right or wrong. He must fail - that is the goal. And if the nation pays for this destructive policy by the Republicans, it does not matter. Better all America loses truthfulness and reputation, than that the Republicans cannot claim power again next time!

If Palin should announce her candidacy, eventually, it will become much, much worse, and the rethorics even more malicious, since she has already and repeatedly demonstrated her love for that kind of attacks. I think this viper was the first to start reasoning loud and in public about Obama's "death camps", if I recall it correctly. What she does not have in intellect, she surely has in venom.

[Letum]

If Palin should announce her candidacy

Is this likely?
I was under the impression she died a political death.

[Tribesman]

"You lie" construed as racism is a stretch at best. I have stated this in this thread already.
But it isn't hard to construe Wilson as a racist is it.
After all someone who describes revelations about a white supremacist having had sex with people who ain't white as a smear campaign could easily be called a racist.
After all a smear campaign is meant to dirty a reputation, how do you dirty the reputation of someone who is so brainless that they can't possibly have a clean reputation?...unless of course the revelations were meant to dirty the white supremacists reputation with other white supremacists

[Skybird]

Is this likely?
I was under the impression she died a political death.
Maybe, but many commented her retreat from Alaskian office as a first step to prepare her candidacy.

I really don't dare any prediction regarding her plans.

[Sea Demon]

"You lie"...?

It is not about a single symptom. It is about a phenomenon
that has mounted over several months now. And you know it.

Another symptom is that the constant rethorical, often bizarre crossfire of Republicans against Obama, plays no role for you.

One thing is clear. You have no understanding of the USA, Republicans, or Democrats. I think you read from too many kook Internet sites. :D

[Aramike]

"You lie"...?

It is not about a single symptom. It is about a phenomenon
that has mounted over several months now. And you know it.No one knows it. The least of whom is you.

"You lie" could merely mean what the words mean at face value. The fact that people on the left seem to convieniently ignore is that, the part of the President's speech that Representative Wilson was referring to, Obama was indeed actually lying - otherwise he was criminally misinformed.

There's this idiotic (yes, these people are idiots) segment on the left that believes that, because the healthcare bill doesn't specifically say that it covers illegal immigrants, that means that it doesn't cover said people. In fact, illegal immigrants would receive the SAME DEFACTO healthcare coverage that they receive now.

The current Patient Bill of Rights (rightly) requires hospitals to treat any and all people who enter their doors. Considering that illegals have no social security number and work illegally, there is NO WAY for healthcare providers to recoup any costs that aren't paid up front.

In essence, illegal aliens receive better heathcare coverage than your average American, and it's costing taxpayers millions.

So, was Joe Wilson right? Absolutely. Obama CAN'T be so stupid as to realize that the health bill doesn't allow continued defacto coverage of illegal aliens. Indeed, there is language in the bill requiring that those covered be US citizens. However, there is NO language in the bill requiring anyone to PROVE that they are US citizens.

So wait, we're going to TRUST people in this country ILLEGALLY to tell the truth? That's damned stupid.

Was he wrong in his conduct? Absolutely. There is a certain decorum that should be followed. Was it racially motivated? Doubtful ... but irrelevent. If someone says "murder is bad" and is doing so because a black person is saying it's good, that doesn't mean that the first person is wrong.

[Skybird]

No one knows it. The least of whom is you.



I was not referring to the content of the statement, but the phenomenon of mounting slurs and attacks against Obama, that make the "you lie"-incident just one symptom in a longer developing phenomenon. And that it is like that we all know for sure - even those of us who for dogmatic reasons reject to admit the phenomenology.

[Aramike]

I was not referring to the content of the statement, but the phenomenon of mounting slurs and attacks against Obama, that make the "you lie"-incident just one symptom in a longer developing phenomenon. And that it is like that we all know for sure - even those of us who for dogmatic reasons reject to admit the phenomenology.I was referring to the same thing as you.

As has been pointed out, this phenomenon is no different than anything that has been seen in recent years in the cases of polarizing world leaders. Do you have any evidence that the US would be responding different should a white president be supporting the same policies? I seem to remember a certain outcry regarding HillaryCare, and the Clintons were far more to the center than Obama is.

The fact is that if race were an issue, Obama wouldn't have enjoyed such early approval successes. His policies, not his skin color, have impacted his decline.

Let's use mathematics here. He started at around 65% approval. That means that there were 35% that disapprove. Bush also started at 65% approval, meaning that there were around 35% who disapprove.

That is before ANY policy decisions were made.

Now, on both sides there were around 35% of the populace that disapproved, essentially regardless, and you want to make the argument that Obama's disapproval is rooted in race?

What, then, explains Bush's disapproval?

And besides, what do those people who are completely ingrained in an ideology matter? Nothing is going to change that dynamic - those people are thoroughly implanted into their ideology. The rest of us tend to lend our support to policies we agree with and oppose those we disagree with. And the "rest of us" are the people that are turning against Obama.

Now does race impact things to some extent? Sure. But nothing more than how, say blacks turned out overwhelmingly to support Obama while staying in for John Kerry.

Indeed, racial phenomenon does exist, but its highly unlikely that race is the factor that is driving the current opposition towards the president.

I mean seriously, when Bush made unpopular decisions it was unpopular because he was wrong, while when Obama does the same thing its unpopular because he's black?

Absurd.

[Skybird]

It's not that those who voted for Obama suddenly turned into racists, although obviously there is quite some disillusionment going on. Its just that the racists in the other camp have become louder after the election. But present it was from the campaign days on. If you doubt that, discuss the issue with some people who are professionals in threat assessement: the Secret Service.

Regarding the display of public protest and incidents at town hall meetings, comparisons with mass murderers and war criminals, and character assassination by inking Obama's policies to Nazi death camps - here in europe you would find yourself in legal troubles for such things displayed on such scale , in several countries, no only germany. If you claim that kind of hysteric, personally most offensive behavior to be "free speech", than neither freedom nor laws battling incitement, slandering and character assassination have any meaning anymore. Freedom does not mean to bully others and behave like a wild bull in the China shop. Freedom could be used to act freely and voice once free opinion, based on argument, freely - and still behave more politely and less cheating. Bullying is no sign of freedom. It is a sign of bad manners, big mouth, and just that.

As it also was often the case in this forum, the problem is not differing opinion, disagreement and somebody protesting. The problem is manners and behavior, using foul tricks and cheats and blatant lies. Some time ago they showed an interesting and very revealing piece on TV, by an American station. They asked protesters and some of the loudest yelling people if they could explain the model Obama was propagating.

They all explained it wrong, showing that they did not even understood what it was for which they yelled out their hate tirades and showed swastikas on Obama portraits and such.

There is no remedy and no cure to lacking education. But not being educated can be perfectly compensated by becoming noisier than those who are.

Which reminds me of a wonderful essay by norbert Bolz, an analysis of the deconstruction of the hero in western modernism and how Western general democracies disparage excellence in the name of "we, the people".
But that is a completely different story! :haha: :D

[Shearwater]

Its just that the racists in the other camp have become louder after the election. But present it was from the campaign days on.

'Getting louder' has also been a key element of Obama's election campaign. You cannot blame the other side for applying the same means.

Regarding the display of public protest and incidents at tpown hall meetings, comparisons with mass murderers and war criminals, and character assassination byl.öinking Obama's policies to Nazi death camps

That is indeed disturbing, to say the least. I wondered how they could get away with this sort of slander and misinformation, not to speak of the bile and fury it takes.

As it also was often the case in this forum, the problem is not differing opinion, disagreement and somebody protesting. The problem is behavior, using foul tricks and cheats and blatant lies.

Could you post some links here? Heated arguments -of course, ad hominem arguments - for sure. But what are foul tricks? In case you're not referring to this forum, please clarify.

There is no remedy and no cure to lacking education. But not being educated can be perfectly compensated by becoming noisier than those who are.

Maybe noise can sometimes be equated by post length ... :hmmm:

All in all, nothing new under the sun this thread.

[Skybird]

Could you post some links here? Heated arguments -of course, ad hominem arguments - for sure. But what are foul tricks? In case you're not referring to this forum, please clarify.


The forum history I will not recall here, there has been too much fighting in the past ten years, and you have missed the better part of the fun. Not for nothing some people I ignore here. What they have in common is that they mixed name-calling, personal insult and bullying - with argument one time too often.

Beyond the forum, for example to claim and claim again Obama is a Muslim Trojan Horse, and claiming it again and again according to the psychologic truth that masses tend to believe the one of several statements that gets
- claimed first,
- claimed repeatedly no matter any counter-argument,
- propagated more agressively.

Or to intentionally misspell his name as Osama.

Both things are dirty tricks, trying to score by appealling to the masses' unreflected, anti-intellectual instincts, making their behavior matching the wanted agenda on basis of irrational reasons when arguments are not convincing. That is what I call playing foul. It's like smearing bull#### onto somebody and then ask people: "Hey, smell him? Wanna follow somebody who stinks that bad?"

Demonising an opponent very much works this way. And if I would believe the noise reaching us from the other side of the Atlantic, Obama no doubt must be Satan himself walking on Earth, aiming at destroying the Union and raising death camps for the old and weak. Actually, quite some people seem to seriously believe he is Satan indeed.

Even worse than Satan - he is a socialist!

No, even worse - a socialist Islamist!

No, worst of all - a terrorist like Osama!

Conclusion: socialism is terrorism :doh: (heared during a town hall meeting that was in the short news on TV over here).



Oh my. Kill your extremist emotions, dear America. They are played upon like a piano player plays on the black and white keys - and obediently, you sing the according tune. Come back to your senses.

Maybe noise can sometimes be equated by post length ... :hmmm:

You can always turn me off and switch on the 30 seconds flash news on TV, if that is more to your liking. ;)

[AVGWarhawk]

"You lie"...?

It is not about a single symptom. It is about a phenomenon
that has mounted over several months now. And you know it.



Nope, nothing has been mounting for months. Those that have feelings of hatred toward Obama have harbored it for a long time. There has been zero mounting. These are folks you see marching on DC. The only difference is they now have become vocal instead of sitting in PA holding on to guns and religion. Why is it only a handful calling it racism? Where is Al Sharpton? Rev Wright? Jesse Jackson? Obama for that matter? Sorry man, if this is construed as racism then no matter what anyone opposes concerning Obama will be considered a racist. Simply a travesty. Like many travesties in this government. Just for giggles why not take it on face value that these people do not like what the government is doing? I did not vote for Obama. HIs policies suck. Do I hate the guy? No. I really dislike Congress. Note, these people who marched did so to Capitol Hill....not the White House. There is discontent with the government as a whole. Obama just happens to be leading the government and therefore the focal point. "YOU LIE=RACISM" The math does not add up. Jimmy Carter blew it by pulling a race card. Ask Michael Steele!

[AVGWarhawk]

I was not referring to the content of the statement, but the phenomenon of mounting slurs and attacks against Obama, that make the "you lie"-incident just one symptom in a longer developing phenomenon. And that it is like that we all know for sure - even those of us who for dogmatic reasons reject to admit the phenomenology.

Go back to post 24...another growing phenomenon or was growing....Bush is home now in TX so who cares and everyone forgets. Look over both walls Skybird. You will find it is the same on either side. The only phenomenon here is Americans have a very short memory.

[AVGWarhawk]

Skybird...I rest my case:



(http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Carter_on_race.html)Jimmy Carter (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Carter_on_race.html) is 84 years old and three decades removed from the White House, but he still has the power to make Democrats run. (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Carter_on_race.html)


Away from him, that is.


From the
(http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Carter_on_race.html)White House (http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm/0909/gibbs_vs_carter_ba6e944a-1f06-4410-b873-151c425bb1e0.html) to Capitol Hill on Wednesday, Democrats raced to distance themselves from the former president’s claim that (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Carter_on_race.html)racism (http://topics.politico.com/index.cfm/topic/Racism) was behind Rep. Joe Wilson’s “ (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Carter_on_race.html)You lie (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/26970.html)” outburst and other attacks on President Barack Obama. (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Carter_on_race.html)
(http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Carter_on_race.html)

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27248.html#ixzz0RNOC2RNS (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27248.html#ixzz0RNOC2RNS)


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27248.html (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27248.html)


Really man....no conspiracy...no friggin phenomenon....just a guy pissed off screaming, 'You lie!'

[Platapus]

I believe what Wilson did was unprofessional, immature, disrespectful, and inappropriate.

But I just can't see any racism context there. :nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe what Wilson did was unprofessional, immature, disrespectful, and inappropriate.

But I just can't see any racism context there. :nope:

Agreed 100%.

[SteamWake]

I believe what Wilson did was unprofessional, immature, disrespectful, and inappropriate.

But I just can't see any racism context there. :nope:


There is none. What you are witnessing is desperate flailing to deflect the accusitions (which were proven correct).

[AVGWarhawk]

Excellent article! Please read!

Mr Obama's election was a moment of triumph for the US and a major step towards erasing the awful stain of slavery. The president himself has a nuanced, sophisticated approach to racial matters.
He is in danger, however, of allowing race to be the principal political weapon used by Democrats against Republicans. A failure to show presidential leadership by calling a halt to this folly could fuel opposition to the Obama agenda – and unpick the scab of racism just as the old wounds were beginning to heal.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6199726/Does-white-America-hate-Barack-Obama.html

[Skybird]

I cannot see that Carter was basing his racism comment on the Wilson issue exclusively, it was just the trigger. The timing, however, hardly equals a contextual, causal, exlcusive link. and nthat The WH distances itself from carter, is no surpirse, becasue they have no other option, even if they are strictly convicned that racism plays a role here. If you want to talk your poltiical oppient into a compromise over an issue, it does not help your ambition to make such sharp accusations. Maybe Obama is naive here, and I think he is, but it is much the same kind of attempted "appeasement" that has been seen from him in the Cairo speech, and his self-restraint in brandmarking Iran and northkorea anymore like it has been american policy in the years and decades before. He wants to talk with them, and maybe that is right or wrong and maybe that is appeasement indeed: but not to verbally strike at them at any possibility is the only chance for him to get them engaged in talks.

The same he wants to do with the Republicans, and tries since months, only to get every open door he offers slammed into his face. I see a pessimistic future here. The Reps do not want compromises with him that would give him successes to sell at the next elections - they want to be in his office, and him out. That'Ws why they will continue to do maximum damages to anything he tries. His hope from before the election that he could succeed in healing the post-Bush split and polarisation in american society by offering his hands even to his worst enemies in the other camp - already has been reduced to zero.

News says new fun is ahead. The missile shield has been put on ice for the immediate future.
That helps to calm relations with Russia - that scores as a strategic "good".
That pisses Czechs and Polish - that scores as "neutral", since nobody must care.
That saves money America cannot afford to spend - the obvious option if you have no money but debts: thus, "good".
That effects Iran in ways to be seen - that scores as "remains to be seen". Shield or not, the iranians would continue as they please anyway, playing for time that they need until they can all of a sudden create hard facts nobody can work around anymore.

But it violates republican policies - "very bad" in their view.

[AVGWarhawk]

I see a pessimistic future here.


Same future seen with every presidency.

News says new fun is ahead. The missile shield has been put on ice for the immediate future.
That helps to calm relations with Russia - that scores as a strategic "good".
That pisses Czechs and Polish - that scores as "neutral", since nobody must care.
That saves money America cannot afford to spend - the obvious option if you have no money but debts: thus, "good".
That effects Iran in ways to be seen - that scores as "remains to be seen". Shield or not, the iranians would continue as they please anyway, playing for time that they need until they can all of a sudden create hard facts nobody can work around anymore.


Sorry for the Polish and Czechs. Just more money Obama can have for healthcare. Still, what does this have to do with Racism? Not much other than Obama has moved on and stopped wasting time and money as Congress did taking an entire day to wrist slap Wilson. The shear stupidity of it all is astounding.

[SteamWake]

Obama says "Huh? What?"

http://whitehouse.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/09/16/obama-and-wh-team-turn-deaf-ear-to-carters-racism-allegations-deny-national-conversation-on-race-going-on-right-now/?test=latestnews

[Thomen]

I cannot see that Carter was basing his racism comment on the Wilson issue exclusively, it was just the trigger. The timing, however, hardly equals a contextual, causal, exlcusive link. and nthat The WH distances itself from carter, is no surpirse, becasue they have no other option, even if they are strictly convicned that racism plays a role here. If you want to talk your poltiical oppient into a compromise over an issue, it does not help your ambition to make such sharp accusations. Maybe Obama is naive here, and I think he is, but it is much the same kind of attempted "appeasement" that has been seen from him in the Cairo speech, and his self-restraint in brandmarking Iran and northkorea anymore like it has been american policy in the years and decades before. He wants to talk with them, and maybe that is right or wrong and maybe that is appeasement indeed: but not to verbally strike at them at any possibility is the only chance for him to get them engaged in talks.

The same he wants to do with the Republicans, and tries since months, only to get every open door he offers slammed into his face. I see a pessimistic future here. The Reps do not want compromises with him that would give him successes to sell at the next elections - they want to be in his office, and him out. That'Ws why they will continue to do maximum damages to anything he tries. His hope from before the election that he could succeed in healing the post-Bush split and polarisation in american society by offering his hands even to his worst enemies in the other camp - already has been reduced to zero.


The thing that you conviently seem to ignore is that Republicans do try to offer advice, alternatives or even want to discuss issues.

It is the Democrats as a whole that are trying to block Republican input into proposed plans. They are not willing to let the Republicans particpate, but are more then willing to let them have a share of the blame if it fails.

Best example is/was the discussion, or rather non-discussion about the health care reform. Even many Democrats are not sure anymore that it is such a great idea as it was proposed by Obama. Are they racist too all of a sudden? According to some of the fringe left they should be kicked out of office.

It took a lot of noise and hollering to get the Left to even hear the concerns of the Right about the proposed bill.

I am not even sure if many people really put the blame for this fiasco solely on Obama. It might be that they single him out because he proposed those plans and probably more important: He is the head of the Democratic Party.

Talk about hypcrits; Pelosi went on the record awhile ago (paraphrasing here can't remember the exact words..) saying that discent and or criticism of the Government is a patriot thing. Now, earlier this year she comes out and says discenters and critics are nazis? What the hell??

Every single person I have sofar talked too said the same damn thing: "Hell, I even like Obama, but his policies suck!"

Trying to display a fringe movement as mainstream is, IMO, intellectual dishonest and does nobody any good in any discussion.

For a change, go over to DailyKos or Democratic Underground. That's some really 'interesting' stuff, but don't forget your tinfoil hat. :D

I do not see you getting all up in arms about Democrats comparing Bush or Reblicans with Hitler, monkeys or whatever. Why is that? Maybe because you are biased?

You should try living in America for awhile, or visit and talk to people here, since you never did except on a forum.

I know that it changed my perception of the average American quite a bit.

[Aramike]

Regarding the display of public protest and incidents at town hall meetings, comparisons with mass murderers and war criminals, and character assassination by inking Obama's policies to Nazi death camps - here in europe you would find yourself in legal troubles for such things displayed on such scale , in several countries, no only germany. If you claim that kind of hysteric, personally most offensive behavior to be "free speech", than neither freedom nor laws battling incitement, slandering and character assassination have any meaning anymore. Freedom does not mean to bully others and behave like a wild bull in the China shop. Freedom could be used to act freely and voice once free opinion, based on argument, freely - and still behave more politely and less cheating. Bullying is no sign of freedom. It is a sign of bad manners, big mouth, and just that.I don't disagree that some people take the issue of "free speech" too far, but I don't find this at all to be a racially motivated phenomenom. None of this kind of behavior is new and exclusive to the Obama administration - was saw plenty of it under Bush.There is no remedy and no cure to lacking education. But not being educated can be perfectly compensated by becoming noisier than those who are.I agree with that, but in the case of healthcare (the issue that's mostly inciting people) liberals are bringing it upon themselves due to their inconsistant accountability towards eduction.

For instance, when conservatives say that the house healthcare bill will lead to things such as death panels, illegal immigrants being covered, a singlepayer system, etc., they are ridiculed as not knowing what they are talking about. When liberals celebrate the same system due to the possibility that it is a step towards single payer (which REQUIRES rationing), they get a wink.

[heartc]

That pisses Czechs and Polish - that scores as "neutral", since nobody must care.


God, you're such an arrogant and cynical S.O.B. I'm glad you're not in politics.
One poster here recently classified you as a pragmatic nationalist. In your answer, you took great exception to the "nationalist" part (of course) but accepted "pragmatic". Here's some news for you:

1. You can't tell other people what to think of you. It doesn't work like that.
2. He was only wrong on the "pragmatic" part instead. "Cynical" would be more fitting.

[Ducimus]

Politics aside, racism, does indeed exist at many levels in America, and is a lot more prevalent then most people would like to believe. Just because you don't see it or encounter it in your daily life, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've had friends effected by racism, i've encountered it in direct relation to my own person (i'm a mutt and proud of it :rotfl2:), ive seen blatant racism from people ive known, and i'm guilty of it myself when it comes to illegal aliens. Anyone who claims racism isn't alive and well in our country is in a state of denial.

[SteamWake]

I do not argue that racisisim exisists I see it quite often.

I do not agree that the average person attending these rallys or express disapproval of the current administration are racially motivated.

Nor do I belive Wilson's outburst was motivated by racisisim. I agree it was out of line but personally I would have had a hard time not having an outburst. I mean after all the president looks straight into the camera and lies.

Now they drag Carter into the mix and make an effin circus out of the thing with Pelosi in tears for god's sake. :doh:

Can we not get back to the issue at hand which up untill just recently had NOT been race.

[Aramike]

Politics aside, racism, does indeed exist at many levels in America, and is a lot more prevalent then most people would like to believe. Just because you don't see it or encounter it in your daily life, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've had friends effected by racism, i've encountered it in direct relation to my own person (i'm a mutt and proud of it :rotfl2:), ive seen blatant racism from people ive known, and i'm guilty of it myself when it comes to illegal aliens. Anyone who claims racism isn't alive and well in our country is in a state of denial.I dont completely agree with this. Indeed, there is racism, but it's not more prevalent than people believe - in fact, I believe the opposite to be true. Just look at this week's events. People were so busy TRYING to find racism that the actual issues were swept aside in many regards.

The bottom line is, sure, there is racism, and its a phenomenom not attached to any particular cultural group. But, the actionable symptoms of racism are no where NEAR as prevalent as they used to be.

And that's what matters.

[Thomen]

I do not argue that racisisim exisists I see it quite often.

I do not agree that the average person attending these rallys or express disapproval of the current administration are racially motivated.

Nor do I belive Wilson's outburst was motivated by racisisim. I agree it was out of line but personally I would have had a hard time not having an outburst. I mean after all the president looks straight into the camera and lies.

Now they drag Carter into the mix and make an effin circus out of the thing with Pelosi in tears for god's sake. :doh:

Can we not get back to the issue at hand which up untill just recently had NOT been race.

This

[Ducimus]

I dont completely agree with this. Indeed, there is racism, but it's not more prevalent than people believe - in fact, I believe the opposite to be true.
.....snip....

But, the actionable symptoms of racism are no where NEAR as prevalent as they used to be.
.

Only because being openly racist is as unpolitically correct as you can get in todays society. To be openly racist, would discredit everything one would have to say. However, gagging the opinion, doesn't make the opinion go away. I have lots of stories about seeing racism in places and ways i didn't expect to see it, but i don't expect relating those experiences is going to sway any opinion on this matter. ( that said, I know more then a few people who voted for McCain, PURELY for the reason that they didn't want to see a N****** in the Whitehouse..)

The main reason i respond to this thread at all, is this dismissive attitude to racism by some posts in this thread, which strikes me as unrealistic. Now I'm not saying every political opponent, or any sizeable percentage thereof to the Obama administration is racially motivated, but i am saying racial bigotry in the US is more common then most people think, or would like to acknowledge.

[August]

And I know more than a few people who voted for Obama precisely because he was black. Which is the more racist?

[FIREWALL]

Mud Slinging and Muddying the Waters are Political tools.

Calling someone a big dumda** White Cracker just doesn't make the press. :haha:

[Ducimus]

>>And I know more than a few people who voted for Obama precisely because he was black. Which is the more racist?

Racism isn't, nor ever, has been confined to just one ethnic group of people. It's in many places, and more common then most think. Thanks for illustrating my point. ;)

[Aramike]

>>And I know more than a few people who voted for Obama precisely because he was black. Which is the more racist?

Racism isn't, nor ever, has been confined to just one ethnic group of people. It's in many places, and more common then most think. Thanks for illustrating my point. ;)But there's a huge difference between how people think and what people do. Actionable racism is in decline. Perhaps people THINK certain ways, but we've become accustomed to calling damned near everything racist.

[AVGWarhawk]

But there's a huge difference between how people think and what people do. Actionable racism is in decline. Perhaps people THINK certain ways, but we've become accustomed to calling damned near everything racist.


I would have to agree here. Actionable racism is declining perhaps. That one we would have to look at hate crims % from city to city. Bare in mind it happens both way thought. You are correct, some will twist anything into making it look like racism. 'You lie=racism' See how easy that was?

[CastleBravo]

The question is when did Jimmy become senile, before or after his presidency?

Jimmy Carter walks back racism charge With video

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/27808.html

[SteamWake]

The question is when did Jimmy become senile, before or after his presidency?

Jimmy Carter walks back racism charge With video

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/27808.html

I think it was during if I recall.

Yea heard about his backpeddeling doesent supprise me. I think he was expecting more 'support' in his views.

[AVGWarhawk]

Imagine that :88) Just another growing phenomenon eh Skybird?

[Skybird]

Trying to score by tricks again? Carter did not link his racism remark to the "You lie-incident" in the way it is misquoted since then. In fact Carter said that part of the general attacks on Obama and the allout opposition to him is based on racism.


Former US President Jimmy Carter says much of the vitriol against President Barack Obama's health reforms and spending plans is "based on racism".
(...)
Angry town hall meetings and a recent taxpayers' demonstration in Washington have been vitriolic towards the president, reports the BBC's North America editor Mark Mardell.
Many have not just protested against the president's policies but have accused him of tyranny, and have promised to "reclaim America".
"Those kind of things are not just casual outcomes of a sincere debate on whether we should have a national programme on healthcare," Mr Carter said at a public meeting at his Carter Center in Atlanta held prior to the Congress vote on Tuesday.
"It's deeper than that."

Responding to a question specifically on Mr Wilson's outburst, he said Mr Obama was the head of state as well as the head of government and - like heads of state elsewhere - he should be "treated with respect".
It was a "dastardly thing to do", he said.



That'S how I recall it very precisely. That's what the BBC-article quoted him with.

And even propaganda..com had to hide in its text that that is what Carter said:



“By the way, that’s not what I said,” Carter interjected as he was being asked about the comment. “If you read the remarks carefully, you’ll see that’s not what I said.”

“I said those that had a personal attack on President Obama as a person, that was tinged with racism,” Carter explained. “But I recognize that people who disagree with him on health care or the environment, that the vast majority of those are not tinged by racism.”

“I meant exactly what I said,” he continued. “What I actually said, if you look at the transcript, is what I just repeated to you.”


To characterise Carter correcting the magazine misquoting him as "Carter backing away from former staztements he gave in reply to Wilson", is simply - a lie, in the end. If they write that "Carter touched off a firestorm three weeks ago when he said Rep. Joe Wilson’s (R-S.C.) “You Lie!” outburst was “based on racism” ", then this is simply not true this way, and is an example of extremely bad and biased, distorting propaganda-journalism that FOX and other Republican sources are very happy with if only it serves their interests.

There is no doubt that Carter did not reply in explicit reaction to the you-lie-incident. but possible that interested rightwinged amrican media and sources try to make it appear as that. Lovely. And so honest.

[SteamWake]

Ive heard the audio and Jimmay said something about 'vast majority being racilay motivated' now he recants.

Nah no trickery here Jimmay stepped in it it just took him a couple of weeks to realize it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA4W70E6krk&feature=channel

[CastleBravo]

Two videos

Wednesday, 16 September 2009

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8258011.stm

10/1/09 2:30 PM EDT

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/27808.html

What did he say in video #1? "There is an inherent feeling among many in this country that an African-American should not be president"

In video #2 he claims to mean what he said in video #1

A personal, some crazy 'p' word, attack he is just trying to lie his way out of his senility. Sorry not buying it.

He called everyone who disagrees with Obama a racist.

[Skybird]

I sometimes wonder if you guys can really master your own English languge.

Transcript of Former President Jimmy Carter's Remarks on Racism at an Emory University Townhall Meeting on Wednesday, Sept. 16, 2009

Question: Do you still believe that racism is an issue that President Obama is facing in passing bills in Congress?

President Carter: Yes, I do. Let me answer this question very carefully.

I think it is completely legitimate, and to be expected, to have tough, sometimes even unfair debates about major issues that face our country. Health care is one. I think it is within the bounds of political propriety, for instance, for opponents of President Obama's proposal to raise the false claim that there are death squads, and that everybody that is over 65 years old is going to be deprived of medical care, to let them die early. Those are the kinds of claims that have been made against them. That's okay.

But when a radical fringe element of demonstrators and others begin to attack the President of the United States of America as an animal or as a reincarnation of Adolf Hitler, or when they waved signs in the air that said we should have buried Obama with Kennedy, those kinds of things are beyond the bounds of the way Presidents have ever been accepted, even with people who disagree.

And I think people that are guilty of that kind of personal attack against Obama have been influenced to a major degree by a belief that he should not be president because he happens to be African-American. It's a racist attitude, and my hope is, and my expectation is, that in the future both Democratic leaders and Republican leaders will take the initiative in condemning that kind of unprecedented attack on the President of the United States.

If you do not believe it, see it here, in full, live:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf-goMaQGN8

If one googles, many sources claim that he gave parts of that comment in direct reply to questions about what he think about that you-Lie-Incident. That way they want to construct a situation that Carter is claimed to have said Wilson is a racist.

But get it in your heads, guys: that simple did not happen.

But the propaganda effort is directed against one of your most favourite hate-figures, Carter. And that is the only reason why you applaud it. If there is anything you want to point out as questionable in Carter's else remarkably reasonable and sensible remarks, then that he says that bullying an opponent in a debate by putting things into his mouth and claiming lies about him like him wanting to establish death squads, is "okay". It is not, and it is no practicing of free speech, but practicing free lying. It is perverting free speech by turning it into a tool of destroying speech alltogether. Because you cannot have a reasonable debate wioth soembody who thinks it is legitimate for him to lie and to bully if it helps him to win over his opponent. That simply is shabby behavior and a level of hostility that turns the debate not into something constructive, but into destruction. Talking to such a person is pointless, simply.

Which this forum often has given evidence of, too. I can sing an endless song about having been misquoted, quoted ouzt of cointext, things put in my mouth, and that way making claims about what I should have said and meant that as a matter of fact I never have said.

This status of things into which political culture in the US and it's media has degenerated over the recent years, is the reason why the US society is so very much and very fanatically polarised.

I googled many pages and blogs and newspaper on this issue, and I found that almost all of them made wrong links between what was asked, what Carter did adress, and what he actually said. It was scaring becasue it shows that the media, despite the vital critical role it should play in a democratic order, is totally and completely failing it's responsibility. And this is utmost worrying.

[CastleBravo]

Forgive me if I point out that the first argument was that folks who disagreed with Mr. Obama because of racism and Jimmy was just pointing that out. Now the argument is that Jimmy didn't call disagreement racism and so where does the supposition now stand? Racism or not? If not why the disagreement. If so then Jimmy is not a good spokesman against racism, because he just recinded his own words.


... and I think since quite a while now that that assessment is absolutely right. The level of totally derailed hostility and almost irrational hate tirades against Obama, comparing him to the worst criminals and massmurderes in the history of mankind, cannot be just differing opinion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8258011.stm

[Tribesman]

He called everyone who disagrees with Obama a racist.
English, some people just can't understand the actual language even if it is the language they seem to use themselves.

Forgive me if I point out that the first argument was ......
Wrong. Try again.
Now the argument is that ......
Wrong. try again.

If you cannot even properly identify the arguements how on earth can you claim they are in disagreement and are being recinded.

[Skybird]

I will not sort it out once again for you, CB, or anybody else, I have repeatedly done that now, above. Either you can follow a speaker, and correctly understand to what he responds and to what not, or you cannot.

[Tribesman]

Either you can follow a speaker, and correctly understand to what he responds and to what not, or you cannot.
I am glad you didn't use the word context, as that just confuses him.