Sea Shepards ram Japanese whaling ship [Archive]

Takeda Shingen

08-16-09, 11:00 AM

Fishing quotas for fish have been proven enforceable in several countries.
Due to their size, I would imagine it is easier to enforce whaling quotas.

As for assessing numbers, educated guesses can be made and quotas drawn
up to provide minimal risk in the worst case scenario.
So long as a sufficient margins are left, there is no significant risk.

I agree that this is an effective method for most marine life. However, whales are mirgratory. Let's say that pod X spends the summer in the Pacific Northwest and the winter off Mexico. Everyone's allowed to take 4 whales, which is what the Mexicans do during the winter. Pod X now moves off Seattle, where the Americans take another four whales from the pod, as is their legal right. The pod is decimated.

No one would really be at fault. How are the Americans to know that this is the same pod that the Mexicans took during the previous season? Given the low birth rates of whales, it would take a decade for harvestable numbers to return, making whaling under these conditions unprofitable. In the long run, whales make for poor harvest.

Letum

08-16-09, 11:05 AM

ETR3(SS)

08-16-09, 11:13 AM

1.Ramming ships on the high seas.

2.Attempts to board ships (my perspective after watching the video).

3.Written record of crimes committed against other vessels in International waters.

4.Flying the Jolly Roger (albeit their version) which is synonymous with piracy.

5.Written evidence claiming Pirate status (again albeit they claim to be the "Good Pirates")

Wanna stop whaling? Good for you! Wanna violate International Maritime Law and claim status as a pirate? Then you should get what every pirate deserves, a short drop and a sudden stop!

OneToughHerring

08-16-09, 11:22 AM

Yes. that would not be a sustainable way of going about it, but that does not
mean there isn't a sustainable way of going about it at all.
That is part of the reason the whaling commission is international.

Yea well, so far what has happened is that many whale species are and have been at the brink of extinction for some time. Many stems like the blue whales might never recover and just one day be gone from the oceans. Whales also suffer from hereditary conditions like humans and when the stem becomes too small it will not be able to recover no matter how protected it is.

Platapus

08-16-09, 11:48 AM

My opinion?

Great intentions, but unacceptable implementation.

I am all for changing the laws about whaling, and for increased enforcement of existing laws.

But committing such acts of violence is not acceptable. :nope:

But then I do not subscribe to the Consequentialism philosophy.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions as Samuel Johnson once said (but he was not the first)

Takeda Shingen

08-16-09, 12:37 PM

I don't think that anyone here was advocating the methods used by Sea Sheperds. Furthermore, I would agree that they are indeed criminals and should be treated as such.

nikimcbee

08-16-09, 12:53 PM

Sledgehammer427

08-16-09, 04:24 PM

I don't think that anyone here was advocating the methods used by Sea Sheperds. Furthermore, I would agree that they are indeed criminals and should be treated as such.

before you guys think I'm a lunatic for saying this, Let me tell you im 18 and fresh out of high school.
yup

Granted they've gone a little overboard, but I support what they're doing. Not many other people are going to jump in a boat and do everything in their power to stop "illegal" whaling. I have tried to see this from all sides and I figured that theres something iffy with the japanese "research" bit. you really need to kill only maybe 2, like every 6 months for research. Apparently, theres more than that being killed.
At a recent flea market, my stepdad flew a Jolly Roger from the back of his car. But we weren't running around plundering and so on. It just looks cool. and maybe thats what the Sea Shepards had in mind too, just with a bit more dedication.

Aramike

08-16-09, 04:36 PM

before you guys think I'm a lunatic for saying this, Let me tell you im 18 and fresh out of high school.
yup

Granted they've gone a little overboard, but I support what they're doing. Not many other people are going to jump in a boat and do everything in their power to stop "illegal" whaling. I have tried to see this from all sides and I figured that theres something iffy with the japanese "research" bit. you really need to kill only maybe 2, like every 6 months for research. Apparently, theres more than that being killed.
At a recent flea market, my stepdad flew a Jolly Roger from the back of his car. But we weren't running around plundering and so on. It just looks cool. and maybe thats what the Sea Shepards had in mind too, just with a bit more dedication.There's a right way and a wrong way to handle things. These people have an opinion (which I don't necessarily disagree with) but have decided to attempt to IMPOSE their opinions on others.

So let's say the Japanese come up with the opinion that these people are terrorists and need to be destroyed, and decide to impose their will on them? By the same justification, that would be okay.

Rilder

08-16-09, 04:42 PM

Heres a picture of the Sea Shepards fighting some Japanese whaling ships.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9669/st4water.gif

Platapus

08-16-09, 04:44 PM

Hence the ongoing debate concerning the Consequentialism philosophies and the Deontology philosophies.

Wiser men and women than I have not been able to figure out which is beetter. :nope:

Aramike

08-16-09, 05:05 PM

Hence the ongoing debate concerning the Consequentialism philosophies and the Deontology philosophies.

Wiser men and women than I have not been able to figure out which is beetter. :nope:Heh, pure deontological ethics simply aren't always practical. Consequentialism is unpredictable. Both tend to remove "will" and intent from the equation, which is why I subscribe to a little bit of each, with some common sense thrown in.

Platapus

08-16-09, 05:22 PM

And one can't just assume that those are the only two choices either. :)

FIREWALL

08-16-09, 05:39 PM

OneToughHerring

08-17-09, 03:15 AM

Heres a picture of the Sea Shepards fighting some Japanese whaling ships.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYHfJks15jY

Funny cause I understand what those guys are saying.

Contact

08-17-09, 03:26 AM

Freiwillige

08-17-09, 03:49 AM

Personally I think they should be screaming "Remember Pearl Harbor!" As they are sending a fan spread of torps across the Jap fleets path.:har:

Aramike

08-17-09, 03:57 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_6v5bcVSS4

I do support Sea Shephards activities in oceans trying to save as much whales, dolphins as possible against Japaneese money greed in this bloody business.

No comments.. :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkgCTDqQYBE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkgCTDqQYBE&feature=related)I don't disagree with their cause. I disagree with their dangerous, illegal, and more importantly, UTTERLY USELESS methods.

Contact

08-17-09, 03:59 AM

I don't disagree with their cause. I disagree with their dangerous, illegal, and more importantly, UTTERLY USELESS methods.

You have something better to offer ? or you prefer taking no action against this animal massacre at all ?

Takeda Shingen

08-17-09, 06:59 AM

You have something better to offer ? or you prefer taking no action against this animal massacre at all ?

You know, it wasn't the Sea Shepherds that made 90% of the world's oceans safe for whales. No, it was peaceful diplomacy between nations, urged by the world's scientists. Aramike is correct: History has clearly desmonstrated that this type of violent approach is highly ineffective.

So yes, petitions, nonviolent protests and political action would be some better solutions.

Contact

08-17-09, 07:53 AM

You know, it wasn't the Sea Shepherds that made 90% of the world's oceans safe for whales. No, it was peaceful diplomacy between nations, urged by the world's scientists. Aramike is correct: History has clearly desmonstrated that this type of violent approach is highly ineffective.

So yes, petitions, nonviolent protests and political action would be some better solutions.

It may be not so effective as all sorts of petitions or protests, but it is surely a fastest way to disrupt the illegal hunting for NOW. Not tomorrow or next month. Cuz the period untill "peacefull diplomacy" will start giving the results they can kill another thousand of whales, and dolphins and cost even more damage to the nature.

Long Live Sea Shepherd! :arrgh!:

Takeda Shingen

08-17-09, 08:18 AM

It may be not so effective as all sorts of petitions or protests, but it is surely a fastest way to disrupt the illegal hunting for NOW. Not tomorrow or next month. Cuz the period untill "peacefull diplomacy" will start giving the results they can kill another thousand of whales, and dolphins and cost even more damage to the nature.

Long Live Sea Shepherd! :arrgh!:

So you will also advocate dealing with a troublesome forum poster by having a mob of SubSim members go to his house and beat him with tire irons in an effort to stop him from posting until a moderator can suspend him?

Letum

08-17-09, 08:20 AM

So you will also advocate dealing with a troublesome forum poster by having a mob of SubSim members go to his house and beat him with tire irons in an effort to stop him from posting until a moderator can suspend him?

What do you think really happens at the Subsim meets?

Takeda Shingen

08-17-09, 08:23 AM

What do you think really happens at the Subsim meets?

That explains why I am always asked to attend. :haha:

Contact

08-17-09, 08:27 AM

Contact

08-17-09, 08:30 AM

That explains why I am always asked to attend. :haha:

I guess you're allways asked to attend just because for someone to collect all "woodsticks" that might find your head a perfect landing square :haha:

Tchocky

08-17-09, 08:32 AM

Wha ? Are you having a problem with me Jap ? Cut the bull**** and speak straight, I expressed my opinion, whats your problem with that huh ?!
I agree with Jodie Foster over here.

Takeda Shingen

08-17-09, 08:34 AM

Wha ? Are you having a problem with me Jap ? Cut the bull**** and speak straight, I expressed my opinion, whats your problem with that huh ?!

Woah, calm down. I was just asking if you defended all form of vigilante justice, which is exactly what Sea Shepherds are all about. We were having a civil discusion. Why roll off the deep end?

By the way, I live in Pennsylvania, USA. My ancestory is German and Welsh.

antikristuseke

08-17-09, 08:36 AM

It may be not so effective as all sorts of petitions or protests, but it is surely a fastest way to disrupt the illegal hunting for NOW. Not tomorrow or next month. Cuz the period untill "peacefull diplomacy" will start giving the results they can kill another thousand of whales, and dolphins and cost even more damage to the nature.

Long Live Sea Shepherd! :arrgh!:

No, no it is not, the Sea Shepards effect is minimal at best. All those *******s are doing is pissing people off and puting their own lives, and those of others, at risk unnesseceraly.

Contact

08-17-09, 08:39 AM

Woah, calm down. I was just asking if you defended all form of vigilante justice, which is exactly what Sea Shepherds are all about. We were having a civil discusion. Why roll of the deep end?

By the way, I live in Pennsylvania, USA. My ancestory is German and Welsh.

Yeah "sure". Now you're back on track ? Don't think I'm too stupid to missunderstand what was hidding between the lines to my address in your last post.

SUBMAN1

08-17-09, 08:39 AM

I have to say, I don't mind the Japanese taking a whale here and there. It is their right, and since humans are the only real predator to a whale, it may actually be necessary. Watched a show on that a while back. Whale populations are skyrocketing due to no hunting, but these Sea Shepard guys won't tell you that. They are actually a bit overblown right now.

On the flip side, I detest poaching.

On the other side, I detest illegal activity such as these sea Shepards ramming this boat. These guys should be thrown in jail as environmental terrorists. They are vigilantes. No other way to put it. We do not tolerate vigilantes in modern society.

Animal planet should also be fined for being in cahoots with these guys. We need to start going after rogue channels and what they finance. This world is becoming a free for all.

I spoke my peace.

-S

Contact

08-17-09, 08:45 AM

I think all this ramming stuff is caused because these poachers doesn't care about all the restrictions of whalehunting and Sea Shepherd sees that as a last resort option to ram a poachers ship to stop them.

Takeda Shingen

08-17-09, 08:54 AM

Yeah "sure". Now you're back on track ? Don't think I'm too stupid to missunderstand what was hidding between the lines to my address in your last post.

Well, I'm sorry if I offended you. I made what I thought was a harmless euphemism regarding vigilante justice. Evidently, I was wrong. Again, my apologies.

Time to walk away.

Contact

08-17-09, 09:02 AM

Well, I'm sorry if I offended you. I made what I thought was a harmless euphemism regarding vigilante justice. Evidently, I was wrong. Again, my apologies.

Time to walk away.

First you try to run on me abstractly, but that didn't worked so now you act doleful as if you never ment to say that ?

Just don't put silly examples to serious topics and you won't be needing to feel sorry for yourself.

Onkel Neal

08-17-09, 09:04 AM

Contact, it's clear Takeda was using his example with humor. And he has retracted the comment, so you can sit down and breathe normally again. Please return to the topic.

Neal, as admin

Contact

08-17-09, 09:12 AM

Simple humour and sly humour has their own differences as they have they own reaction. Back to the topic.

Cheers.

Melonfish

08-17-09, 10:09 AM

wait a mo, whats all this "Sunk" am i right in saying that these whale protestors are actually SINKING whaling ships?

or are they mourning the loss of their own?

seriously i agree they may have a cause but this stupid and reckless way they're going about it is going to kill people.
hell what happens if a whaling captain gets annoyed and starts popping off rounds with his old m1 carbine or some sutch? what happens if the japanese navy gets involved?!

don't care what they stand for there's no excuse for stupidity.

Contact

08-17-09, 10:24 AM

Usually rencounters end up with slight ship damages. Rammings ain't happening at 90 degrees to cause serious damage to the ship. But it is enough to make disruption in further hunting. Sea Shepherds crew is the one who risk the most, they can be shot, they can be pelt with grenades. They are risking they lives to save a whale. Isn't that a self-denial ?

And I feel most of you just want to call them bandits or pirates or whatever while sitting back there in your sweet warm houses :nope:

August

08-17-09, 10:33 AM

I wouldn't object if the Japanese traded their water cannons for real ones and sank the SS ship with all hands. Sea Shepherds are nothing but pirates and they deserve a pirates fate.

Contact

08-17-09, 10:46 AM

I wouldn't object if the Japanese traded their water cannons for real ones and sank the SS ship with all hands. Sea Shepherds are nothing but pirates and they deserve a pirates fate.

So you can easily spit on nature too. :down: It is sad but looks like materialists have already sold their moral. Lets ruin our ecosystem and kill our planet today, while diplomatic solution findings are sinking in bureaucracy waters ?

Edit: They are poachers and by the way it is violation of the law.

Just because protests and petitions ain't helping to stop the whalings. There will be people who going to be partial to Sea Shephering hopefully.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/2968/seashepherd2.th.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/i/seashepherd2.jpg/)
http://www.seashepherd.org/get-involved/crewing-at-sea.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2AzWr4P4Eg

Die Whale Poachers!

Letum

08-17-09, 11:28 AM

Edit: They are poachers and by the way it is violation of the law.

You denounce 'poaching' as against the law and promote piracy as better
than the law in the same breath. Don't you think that is a little rich?

Aside from that, the IWC is an entirely voluntary organization and as a result
the Japanease whaling program is breaking no international or national laws.
The SeaShepard on the other hand, is.

FIREWALL

08-17-09, 11:37 AM

The problem I have with the Japanese is their Research.

It's done on a Dinner Plate not a Petri Dish.

Green Peace got nowhere with them.

I see it as the next step. And no doubt will get worse.

OneToughHerring

08-17-09, 11:41 AM

You denounce 'poaching' as against the law and promote piracy as better
than the law in the same breath. Don't you think that is a little rich?

Aside from that, the IWC is an entirely voluntary organization and as a result
the Japanease whaling program is breaking no international or national laws.
The SeaShepard on the other hand, is.

You really think these guys are pirates? I don't think the Sea Sheperds are evading the law in any way so if they break any laws they are pretty open for prosecution. So, I don't think they are pirates in that sense. And btw they're Americans. Are you calling Americans terrorists?!11one!

Contact

08-17-09, 11:43 AM

You denounce 'poaching' as against the law and promote piracy as better
than the law in the same breath. Don't you think that is a little rich?

Aside from that, the IWC is an entirely voluntary organization and as a result
the Japanease whaling program is breaking no international or national laws.
The SeaShepard on the other hand, is.

If you want you can call it piracy, terrorism or whatever crap is available on your tongue at the moment. But all this is done for good purposes: To stop massive whale killing. I hate to look at these floating ****y wherrys covered under "research" caption.
So yes I promote such kind of piracy as defensible.

Onkel Neal

08-17-09, 11:52 AM

You denounce 'poaching' as against the law and promote piracy as better
than the law in the same breath. Don't you think that is a little rich?

Aside from that, the IWC is an entirely voluntary organization and as a result
the Japanease whaling program is breaking no international or national laws.
The SeaShepard on the other hand, is.

One thing I noticed, they may want to stop flying the Jolly Roger if they don't like being compared to pirates :arrgh!:

Letum

08-17-09, 11:58 AM

OneToughHerring

08-17-09, 11:59 AM

One thing I noticed, they may want to stop flying the Jolly Roger if they don't like being compared to pirates :arrgh!:

Even if they do have a kind of stylized version of the Jolly Roger doesn't mean they are actual pirates. Besides, it's a cool looking symbol. :)

Anyway, you live in the US, go tell them of your disapproval. Even the Dalai Lama supports these guys.

FIREWALL

08-17-09, 12:03 PM

The problem I have with the Japanese is their Research.

It's done on a Dinner Plate not a Petri Dish.

Green Peace got nowhere with them.

I see it as the next step. And no doubt will get worse.

:haha: I see this post didn't get touched by the PC here. :haha:

On tv this weekend I saw Civilized Researchers Tagging and photos of Whales.

Contact

08-17-09, 12:11 PM

If you condone illegal actions because you agree with the cause, you lose
the right to complain when you become the victim of illegal actions that
someone else condones because they support a different cause.

I think in this simple way. That one illegal action can be fought by another illegal action if this one stands for good purposes. Well at least as long as there is no civiliazed version (or they do not work) to prevent massive whalings from happening.

Letum

08-17-09, 12:19 PM

Care to point out the law the Japanese are breaking, given that the IWC is
entirely voluntary?

OneToughHerring

08-17-09, 12:32 PM

Care to point out the law the Japanese are breaking, given that the IWC is
entirely voluntary?

What exactly does the maritime law that governs whaling stipulate when it comes to whaling those whales that are endangered or in danger of being extinct. The Japanese give themselves a licence to whale so-and-so many whales, whales that could arrive at the US coast and entertain paying tourists. Think about it. :hmmm::)

Letum

08-17-09, 12:41 PM

What exactly does the maritime law that governs whaling...

There is no international maritime law governing whaling. Only the IWC guidelines; which are not law.

August

08-17-09, 12:45 PM

So you can easily spit on nature too. :down: It is sad but looks like materialists have already sold their moral. Lets ruin our ecosystem and kill our planet today, while diplomatic solution findings are sinking in bureaucracy waters ?

I spit on nature all the time, the ground, bushes, that sort of thing, because i've found that if you spit on people they tend to get upset.

They are poachers and by the way it is violation of the law.

Maybe they are and maybe they are not, but either way the SS are not the authorized enforcers of the law.

What they are doing is criminal vigilantism pure and simple.

OneToughHerring

08-17-09, 12:51 PM

What they are doing is criminal vigilantism pure and simple.

Well why aren't you suing them then? Drag their asses to court.

Aramike

08-17-09, 12:54 PM

Letum's exactly right.I think in this simple way. That one illegal action can be fought by another illegal action if this one stands for good purposes. Well at least as long as there is no civiliazed version (or they do not work) to prevent massive whalings from happening.So illegal actions are okay depending on whether or not you agree with them?

Bad argument.

So then, from the Japanese perspective, who have a long history and tradition of whaling, over-whaling is okay because, even though its illegal, they see it as for a "good purpose".

Contact

08-17-09, 01:01 PM

bureaucracy waters ?

I spit on nature all the time, the ground, bushes, that sort of thing, because i've found that if you spit on people they tend to get upset.

[color=Magenta]

Maybe they are and maybe they are not, but either way the SS are not the authorized enforcers of the law.

What they are doing is criminal vigilantism pure and simple.

I assume you're not that stupid to understand what I had in mind by saying: Spit on the nature. yes ?

Pure and simple is the reason why SS are doing this hard job. For those who are interested in facts about whaling and animals under global protection program can use uncle google for answers. And I think I got enough for today. See you all tomorrow and we can continue to debate.

OneToughHerring

08-17-09, 01:06 PM

There is no international maritime law governing whaling. Only the IWC guidelines; which are not law.

Which in your eyes means it's legal to hunt all whales?

Letum

08-17-09, 01:41 PM

There is no international maritime law governing whaling. Only the IWC guidelines; which are not law.Which in your eyes means it's legal to hunt all whales?

Legality is not influenced by any point of view. However much you dislike
something, if there is no law covering it, it can not be anything but legal.

My eyes, however they happen to see the subject, have nothing to do with
the legality of it.

FIREWALL

08-17-09, 01:49 PM

I say let the N. Koreans settle the Japs hash. :haha:

A little missle practice on J. Whaleing ships. :woot:

August

08-17-09, 02:20 PM

Well why aren't you suing them then? Drag their asses to court.

Neither you or I have legal standing to bring suit on that issue OTH. If we were whaling ship owners whose vessel had been rammed by a SS ship then we would have legal standing.

OneToughHerring

08-17-09, 02:27 PM

Well are the Japanese suing them then? If so then it hasn't put the Sheperds out of business. Seems to me that both sides act in a kind of legal grey area.

August

08-17-09, 02:49 PM

If so then it hasn't put the Sheperds out of business.

I'm no expert on international civil law but don't think it's all that easy to do that. I suppose Japan could sue them in a Japanese court but how could they force payment? It's not like SS has assets in Japans jurisdiction that could be seized in lieu of payment and they can't very well have law enforcement seize an SS ship on the high seas.

Better to just sink them as the pirates they are imo...

Jimbuna

08-17-09, 03:19 PM

The French had an almost unique way of dealing with such people but sadly, one person lost their life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

Aramike

08-17-09, 04:24 PM

The French had an almost unique way of dealing with such people but sadly, one person lost their life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_WarriorI remember reading about that awhile ago. Frankly I thought that to be a good way of handling it, versus sinking the ship offshore likely killing all on board.

Tribesman

08-17-09, 05:21 PM

Well why aren't you suing them then? Drag their asses to court.
They have been repeatedly sued , they have lost thier ships to the courts , they are the subject of international arrest warrants for terrorism, they are about to lose their registry status for breaking maritime law.

SUBMAN1

08-17-09, 08:27 PM

They have been repeatedly sued , they have lost thier ships to the courts , they are the subject of international arrest warrants for terrorism, they are about to lose their registry status for breaking maritime law.

Please provide details. This is good stuff! This Sea Shepard needs to be sunk!

-S

Contact

08-18-09, 01:40 AM

Opposition of Sea Shepherd!

You are seeing evil in the wrong side here and that is your biggest mistake!

Aramike

08-18-09, 02:00 AM

Opposition of Sea Shepherd!

You are seeing evil in the wrong side here and that is your biggest mistake!So you're the authority on evil now, too?

Contact

08-18-09, 02:11 AM

So you're the authority on evil now, too?

What do you want me to tell you exactly ? I don't like poachers at sea I see them as bigger threat to earths ecosystem, than SS activity. And if I ever start and finish contructing my u-boat I will find them and give them something to remember :arrgh!:

Morts

08-18-09, 02:36 AM

Zachstar

08-18-09, 02:55 AM

What do you want me to tell you exactly ? I don't like poachers at sea I see them as bigger threat to earths ecosystem, than SS activity. And if I ever start and finish contructing my u-boat I will find them and give them something to remember :arrgh!:

So you dream of becoming a pirate (In my opinion)? Is that the case contact? Do you dream of killing all those people with families? I do not believe even SS wants the whalers dead.... what does that say about your U-boat dreams (In my opinion) eh?

You stop poachers by using whatever sensors you can to record their activity. The whaling popularity in Japan was starting to sour fast until SS turned it into a nationalistic thing. The whalers are being hailed as heros for withstanding SS attacks instead of people doing a flawed activity.

OneToughHerring

08-18-09, 03:20 AM

So you dream of becoming a pirate (In my opinion)? Is that the case contact? Do you dream of killing all those people with families? I do not believe even SS wants the whalers dead.... what does that say about your U-boat dreams (In my opinion) eh?

You stop poachers by using whatever sensors you can to record their activity. The whaling popularity in Japan was starting to sour fast until SS turned it into a nationalistic thing. The whalers are being hailed as heros for withstanding SS attacks instead of people doing a flawed activity.

Enjoy trolling much? The Shepards have never killed or even harmed anyone.

There is no real entity to keep the illegal or semi-illegal whaling in check, if there was then maybe these guys weren't needed. As things are they are out there and if they hadn't been out there defending whales many species would have been on the brink of extinction if not extinct.

Tribesman,

well they've been at it for about 30 years, if they're about to go out of business then, well, I'll believe it when I see it.

antikristuseke

08-18-09, 03:44 AM

OoneToughHering, I find it very hard to belive that the sea shepard has ad anything but the most minute effect on any population of any species of whales. Their tactics are only druming up support for whaling from the japanese public, though I have no information on wether its popularity was waning beforehand or not.

Now, back to herr Contact.
Are you 12? I no not mean this to be insulting, I only mean that you come off as someone very young, allways talking in absolutes and speaking of grand gestures. The thing about those is that there are very few (if any) absolutes in this world and grand gestures only look good on paper whithout having much real effect on the real world.

Now then, I do not particularly like Japans whaling activity, but that is more due to their oversteping of quotas and breaking of international law, than any urge to shave the whales. Regardless, what the SS is doing is silly, wrong and counterproductive to their efforts and therefore needs to stop before things escalate from sillyness and stupidity to the grand magnificence that a pile of fail is.

Contact

08-18-09, 05:08 AM

Now, back to herr Contact.
Are you 12? I no not mean this to be insulting, I only mean that you come off as someone very young, allways talking in absolutes and speaking of grand gestures. The thing about those is that there are very few (if any) absolutes in this world and grand gestures only look good on paper whithout having much real effect on the real world.

If you asked.. I'm 27. And my speaking manner is directly related to my charachter. That is where from the absolute thinking is rising.

Speaking of grand gestures I think most important is at least to have them!

Contact

08-18-09, 05:16 AM

Now then, I do not particularly like Japans whaling activity, but that is more due to their oversteping of quotas and breaking of international law.

Exactly, and Japaneese whalehunters are constantly breaking this law. It is ok that at least some media like Discovery channel is showing to world society what is really going on there.

Anyway this discussion more and more is getting useless because we all are going to stick by our own opinions and noone but only ourselfs can change that.

OneToughHerring

08-18-09, 09:39 AM

Contact

08-18-09, 09:43 AM

Well from what I know whaling isn't that popular at least among younger Japanese. The whale meat that is fished for 'scientific purposes' is sold at the fish markets. Interesting science.

I would say money making science :nope:

Aramike

08-18-09, 12:50 PM

If you asked.. I'm 27. And my speaking manner is directly related to my charachter. That is where from the absolute thinking is rising.

Speaking of grand gestures I think most important is at least to have them!More like grand gestures are meaningless, but alas...

In any case, your argument finds itself in a precarious position. You're not trying to defend the attacts on whalers from a moral standpoint, and that's the fatal flaw.

You can't use the law to justify the SS attacks on whalers, and then turn around and ignore the law regarding said attacks. Either the law validates an action or it does not. If you take the approach that SOME laws validate the attacks, but the laws related to the attacks themselves are irrelevent, then you made the argument about perspective and not law whatsoever.

Meaning, from their view the Japanese are correct in engaging in whaling. Furthermore, from their view, the Japanese could possible be correct in destroying the SS.

And that view is no more or less correct than yours.

Spike88

08-18-09, 01:08 PM

In my opinion, what there doing is kind of like the people who shoot abortion doctors to try and stop abortions. Its still illegal.

Apparently Greenpeace, dislikes the SS and her captain, because of his methods, and tries to distance themselves from them.

Aramike

08-18-09, 01:50 PM

In my opinion, what there doing is kind of like the people who shoot abortion doctors to try and stop abortions. Its still illegal.

Well put. :up:

Contact

08-18-09, 01:56 PM

More like grand gestures are meaningless, but alas...

In any case, your argument finds itself in a precarious position. You're not trying to defend the attacts on whalers from a moral standpoint, and that's the fatal flaw.

You can't use the law to justify the SS attacks on whalers, and then turn around and ignore the law regarding said attacks. Either the law validates an action or it does not. If you take the approach that SOME laws validate the attacks, but the laws related to the attacks themselves are irrelevent, then you made the argument about perspective and not law whatsoever.

Meaning, from their view the Japanese are correct in engaging in whaling. Furthermore, from their view, the Japanese could possible be correct in destroying the SS.

And that view is no more or less correct than yours.

**** the law! You think every law branch is perfect and even for everyone ? Then you must be simply naive if you do. C'mon! what law SS are braking ? Do they kill or kidnap people ? Do they rob or take over ships from these Japs ? Explain precisly in details right now and here what ****in law are they braking ?! Cuz you already pissed me off with your one way attitude. You think it's not against the law to ignore the limits of allowed quantity of whales that they kill ? They don't care about quatas you know why ? because only what they care about is money they are getting for every single whale they kill! Ipso facto they cover themselves under some 'research' cover what is also a bull**** to make blindly law obeying people all over the world to believe this fairytale!

Zoomer96

08-18-09, 02:00 PM

I guess its a matter of ethics............

A wrongful action is not a morally[/URL] appropriate way to correct (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/moral) or cancel[URL="http://www.subsim.com/wiki/cancel"] a previous wrongful action.

Tribesman

08-18-09, 02:08 PM

Tribesman,

well they've been at it for about 30 years, if they're about to go out of business then, well, I'll believe it when I see it.
Thats where the registry comes in . OK when there is another specific legal case they just lose their ship again and buy another, but without registry every harbour and every navy is obliged to impound the vessel by law . Once the Dutch follow other nations in refusing to flag the vessls then sea shepherd will be unable to dock anywhere in the world .
They want to be pirates, then thats the price they pay.
Oh and the attempt they want to try at sailing with the nations confederacy flag won't work as no country recognises it as a registered merchant marine.
Quite frankly these idiots are even worse than the complete idiots at PETA.

**** the law!
Thats a very expensive business and not a very sensible one to follow, especially when they have no possible legal arguement to justify their actions.

ETR3(SS)

08-18-09, 02:08 PM

Two wrongs don't make a right?:hmmm:

Letum

08-18-09, 02:19 PM

C'mon! what law SS are braking ? Do they kill or kidnap people ? Do they rob or take over ships from these Japs ? Explain precisly in details right now and here what ****in law are they braking ?!

Are you kidding?
They claim to have sunk ten ships!. The have rammed many more
causing damage to the ships and injury to crew members.

They have thrown acid onto the decks of ships, also causing injury and
damage.

They have boarded several ships and destroyed equipment on board as well
as cutting lose drift nets.

The captain has stated that "I stand in honourable company as a
modern-day pirate".

It is undoubtable that they have caused damage to property, disruption to
legal commercial and scientific activity and put lives at needless risk.

Aramike

08-18-09, 02:21 PM

**** the law! You think every law branch is perfect and even for everyone ? Then you must be simply naive if you do. C'mon! what law SS are braking ? Do they kill or kidnap people ? Do they rob or take over ships from these Japs ? Explain precisly in details right now and here what ****in law are they braking ?! Cuz you already pissed me off with your one way attitude. You think it's not against the law to ignore the limits of allowed quantity of whales that they kill ? They don't care about quatas you know why ? because only what they care about is money they are getting for every single whale they kill! Ipso facto they cover themselves under some 'research' cover what is also a bull**** to make blindly law obeying people all over the world to believe this fairytale!So by your view, it's okay for anti-abortion protesters to kill abortion doctors.

Like you said, **** the law.

In fact, the Japanese should just sink the SS and be done with it. **** the law, right?

Btw, you may want to get smarter before you engage me with your typical hate-filled spew. I'm not seeing things one way - YOU are. I'm seeing both sides. I disagree with whaling, but I disagree with what those morons on the SS are doing, as well - and I find it hilarious how they are willing to break maritime law for a totally ineffective tactic.

Contact

08-18-09, 02:37 PM

So by your view, it's okay for anti-abortion protesters to kill abortion doctors.

Like you said, **** the law.

In fact, the Japanese should just sink the SS and be done with it. **** the law, right?

Btw, you may want to get smarter before you engage me with your typical hate-filled spew. I'm not seeing things one way - YOU are. I'm seeing both sides. I disagree with whaling, but I disagree with what those morons on the SS are doing, as well - and I find it hilarious how they are willing to break maritime law for a totally ineffective tactic.

No one is talking here about any human killings here and stop puting lame adequations into topic ok ?!

If Japs would start sinking SS that would most probably lead to open dogfights in the areas where "researchers" operates. But that is not going to happen anyway. Sadly I don't think SS community is big enough to start this war on poaching seriously.
But if it would be imminent than yeah **** the law again :arrgh!:

And about effectiveness you might be just right but IMO they're doing good job by dirupting they hunts at least temporarily. And think deeper, if they were so ineffective Japs wouldn't start using worldwide pressure against SS as well.

OneToughHerring

08-18-09, 03:01 PM

Thats where the registry comes in . OK when there is another specific legal case they just lose their ship again and buy another, but without registry every harbour and every navy is obliged to impound the vessel by law . Once the Dutch follow other nations in refusing to flag the vessls then sea shepherd will be unable to dock anywhere in the world .
They want to be pirates, then thats the price they pay.
Oh and the attempt they want to try at sailing with the nations confederacy flag won't work as no country recognises it as a registered merchant marine.
Quite frankly these idiots are even worse than the complete idiots at PETA.

Thats a very expensive business and not a very sensible one to follow, especially when they have no possible legal arguement to justify their actions.

I think we've reached the 'ad nauseum' phase in this debate but let's keep going anyway, in the end this is a good, worthwhile issue.

Again, I'll wait until they will be 'barred from harbours' and how exactly that will stop them. And what will happen with the Japanese 'scientific' whaling then. Obviously some people have much faith in basicly commercial companies keeping natures intrests first when the other option is to make more profits. I wonder what option they will choose. Or then, more likely option is that some people just don't care if certain species are basicly hunted to extinction.

Interesting you should bring up PETA because both them and the Shepherds are from the States. If one should critizise the SS for something then a good point would be to point out that they are based in the US and mainly carry out operations against non-US targets making then an entity that furthers US intrests around the world against it's competitors.

Letum,

I think they have these things called lawyers that represent them in the courts and stuff. They're not like, fugitives and stuff.

Contact

08-18-09, 03:16 PM

Fight for whale life continues:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYR4u2IljZ4

Spike88

08-18-09, 03:23 PM

Two wrongs don't make a right?:hmmm:
Three do.

Aramike

08-18-09, 03:41 PM

And about effectiveness you might be just right but IMO they're doing good job by dirupting they hunts at least temporarily. And think deeper, if they were so ineffective Japs wouldn't start using worldwide pressure against SS as well. That has nothing to do with effectiveness. If you owned a factory and someone damaged your walls, you'd probably not suffer and production setback, but you'd still be inclined to press charges.

Contact

08-18-09, 03:47 PM

That has nothing to do with effectiveness. If you owned a factory and someone damaged your walls, you'd probably not suffer and production setback, but you'd still be inclined to press charges.

Japs have a right to be angry with SS as much as they want. But this angriness will still leave them with holey nets and no whales onboard as long as SS units are around. That is effectivness.

Aramike

08-18-09, 03:53 PM

Japs have a right to be angry with SS as much as they want. But this angriness will still leave them with holey nets and no whales onboard as long as SS units are around. That is effectivness.Effective how? In harrassing them? Okay, who cares? That isn't going to save a single whale.

Even Greenpeace calls the moron that runs things for SS a violent extremist.

All these idiots are doing is making many people who would otherwise agree with their cause sympathetic to the Japanese.

Hans Schultz

08-18-09, 03:56 PM

Japanese research my socks! they are hunt whales for food plain and simple. Too bad they didn't sink the whaling ship.

Contact

08-18-09, 04:11 PM

Effective how? In harrassing them? Okay, who cares? That isn't going to save a single whale.

Even Greenpeace calls the moron that runs things for SS a violent extremist.

All these idiots are doing is making many people who would otherwise agree with their cause sympathetic to the Japanese.

Why are you so sure it's not going to save a single whale ? Are you concrete sceptic from birth ?

That Greenpeace is your beloved form of petition and protest way formed community to show dissagreement in useless soft way that will never give any results in whale saving.

The main problem for SS to expand is these dumb morons and idiots who are just whining about how bad SS are, always adequateing them with dangerous "terrorists" and silently expressing sympathy to Jap poachers but in doublefaced form. In public they would say they are against whaling too. :down:

I'm off to sleep already, keep up the steam for men that works hard to save another whale life for our planet.

Aramike

08-18-09, 04:27 PM

Why are you so sure it's not going to save a single whale ? Are you concrete sceptic from birth ? I'm a realist, not a skeptic. Any entire Japanese cultural industry isn't going to be hampered by the efforts of a few nutjobs and their ship.That Greenpeace is your beloved form of petition and protest way formed community to show dissagreement in useless soft way that will never give any results in whale saving.I honestly, I've read this 3 times and I have no idea what the hell you're trying to say.

But, for the record, I don't like Greenpeace either.The main problem for SS to expand is these dumb morons and idiots who are just whining about how bad SS are, always adequateing them with dangerous "terrorists" and silently expressing sympathy to Jap poachers but in doublefaced form. In public they would say they are against whaling too. :down:Umm, I wouldn't be calling anyone an idiot if I were you...

I mean, it doesn't take a smart person to realize that its possible to be against something but ALSO against certain methods used by the original thing's opponents, and you don't even comprehend that.

OneToughHerring

08-18-09, 04:48 PM

I mean, it doesn't take a smart person to realize that its possible to be against something but ALSO against certain methods used by the original thing's opponents, and you don't even comprehend that.

As in have your cake and eat it? :)

Personally I wouldn't want to live in a world where people like the Sea Shepherds would be banned from trying to bring justice to a worthy cause. When it comes to the 'health' of the oceans the situation is pretty critical. Many old timers who have sailed the worlds oceans when they were young and lately say that the oceans are dead. Dead as in compared to what they used to be. It's not a question of how many species will go extinct, it's more a question of will there be any kind of ocean ecosystem as it once was. And by once I mean as recently as ~50 years ago.

Aramike

08-18-09, 04:56 PM

As in have your cake and eat it? :)

I don't think it's having your cake and eating it too, really. It's the same principle as someone being against abortion but also against killing abortion doctors, as someone else brought up.Personally I wouldn't want to live in a world where people like the Sea Shepherds would be banned from trying to bring justice to a worthy cause. When it comes to the 'health' of the oceans the situation is pretty critical. Many old timers who have sailed the worlds oceans when they were young and lately say that the oceans are dead. Dead as in compared to what they used to be. It's not a question of how many species will go extinct, it's more a question of will there be any kind of ocean ecosystem as it once was. And by once I mean as recently as ~50 years ago. I don't disagree that there needs to be steps taken to preserve the ecological balance of the oceans. However, a vigilante group ramming ships does nothing to that end. Instead, as I said earlier the are doing nothing more but casting a shadow over the real problem and breeding sympathies for their opponents.

Task Force

08-18-09, 05:03 PM

These whale people are stupid.... putting people in a dangerous situation, and sinking ships... What do they think happens when a ship sinks... all the oil, and s*** that was in it gets out and gets into the water...

These people remind me of peta in the way they are extremists... they take something which they could handel by calling the athurotys if the people are doing illegal stuff.

yes, its rong to kill wales, and its rong to do illigal thing... but these people take it to an extremes...

my 2 cents on this...

August

08-18-09, 05:29 PM

If Japs would...

so ineffective Japs wouldn't......

That term is a disparaging racial slur so please stop using it immediately. The proper name is Japanese.

Tribesman

08-18-09, 05:46 PM

Again, I'll wait until they will be 'barred from harbours' and how exactly that will stop them.
Know much about ships do you ?:har::har::har::har::har:

Interesting you should bring up PETA because both them and the Shepherds are from the States. If one should critizise the SS for something then a good point would be to point out that they are based in the US and mainly carry out operations against non-US targets making then an entity that furthers US intrests around the world against it's competitors.

Wow , that makes sense:doh:
So you support violent idiots and hate the US, you really are putting up a good arguement here.

But this angriness will still leave them with holey nets and no whales onboard as long as SS units are around. That is effectivness.
Ah effectiveness , possibly a decent arguement ....well a decent arguement if the Japanese whalers hadn't filled their legal quota of whales each time despite the attempts to stop them

Contact

08-19-09, 01:39 AM

Woke up, having a coffee, reading useless anti SS comments and making silly face expressions.

If this is a war for whales, all means of fight becomes justifiable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b322f6ZQfkY&feature=related

Tribesman

08-19-09, 02:18 AM

Woke up, having a coffee, reading useless anti SS comments and making silly face expressions.

Well if the anti seashepherd comments are useless why not have some from themselves just to see how crazy these idiots are .
Lets run through a couple just to see how much you agree with these "noble" people and their cause .
All fishing must be banned
All cars , aircraft and ships must be banned apart form solar powered Zeppelins and sailingships
Schools must be banned
Everyone must beome a vegetarian or even better a vegan
All cities must go.
No town should have more than 20,000 inhabitants and must be isolated from all other towns.
Five out of every six people on the planet have to be removed.
Only people who agree with these views should be allowed to breed.

So what do you think , good decent people fighting for a just cause?
Or howling mad violent extremists with a lunatic agenda?

Contact

08-19-09, 02:43 AM

Well if the anti seashepherd comments are useless why not have some from themselves just to see how crazy these idiots are .
Lets run through a couple just to see how much you agree with these "noble" people and their cause .
All fishing must be banned
All cars , aircraft and ships must be banned apart form solar powered Zeppelins and sailingships
Schools must be banned
Everyone must beome a vegetarian or even better a vegan
All cities must go.
No town should have more than 20,000 inhabitants and must be isolated from all other towns.
Five out of every six people on the planet have to be removed.
Only people who agree with these views should be allowed to breed.

So what do you think , good decent people fighting for a just cause?
Or howling mad violent extremists with a lunatic agenda?

You're falling over the edge. This ironic derogation of yours that you've listed has nothing to do with true SS policy against whalings. :arrgh!:

However for these actions these poaching bastards should be dragged to court: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxNJU5OcQTw&feature=related

Tribesman

08-19-09, 03:07 AM

You're falling over the edge. This ironic derogation of yours that you've listed has nothing to do with true SS policy against whalings.
Are all those policies on the Sea shepherd website?:yep:

OK maybe that isn't clear enough , perhaps those wierd views are just written by some fruitcake who posted in the visitors comments section.

So.....Are those the views of the founders and leaders of this lunatic organisation as published by them on their own website which aims to promote their views and their values.:yep:

You fell over the edge when you voiced support for these idiots and their actions.

Contact

08-19-09, 03:17 AM

Are all those policies on the Sea shepherd website?:yep:

OK maybe that isn't clear enough , perhaps those wierd views are just written by some fruitcake who posted in the visitors comments section.

So.....Are those the views of the founders and leaders of this lunatic organisation as published by them on their own website which aims to promote their views and their values.:yep:

You fell over the edge when you voiced support for these idiots and their actions.

Look, if you want just to rant yourself up go ahead. But you're getting weak on weight arguments mate. You're just pathetic now.. :yawn:

Yeah and just because you asked about the website and policy existance here it is: http://www.seashepherd.org/
Maybe you'll learn something you did not knew. Sorry but I really got bored to pick with bald people at the moment.

OneToughHerring

08-19-09, 03:31 AM

Know much about ships do you ?:har::har::har::har::har:

The SS is still out there so I guess your prediction is far from coming true. Or should I even say, false. :)

Wow , that makes sense:doh:
So you support violent idiots and hate the US, you really are putting up a good arguement here.Violence as in killing people or hurting people? Nope. That's something the US government takes part in on a regular basis. But I do understand that these ecogroups aren't always as universal as they claim to be. If you follow the money you'll see that some of them target specific companies etc. However I would still give the SS the benefit of doubt in this respect since they have opposed US whaling as well.

Edit. Then again Ireland isn't the most should I say ecologically oriented nation in the world so I can sort of understand where you are coming from.

Contact

08-19-09, 03:39 AM

Equality Statement

Sea Shepherd Conservation Society operates internationally without prejudice towards race, color, nationality, religious belief, or any other consideration except for an impartial adherence to upholding international conservation law to protect endangered marine species and ecosystems.
Those illegal operations that we oppose routinely attempt to accuse Sea Shepherd of being anti-Japanese, anti-Native American, or anti-Scandinavian etc, for our opposition to illegal whaling or the killing of dolphins. We are accused of being anti-Canadian or anti-African for opposing the slaughter of seals. We have been accused of being anti-Latino for opposing illegal South American shark finning operations.
Nothing could be further from the truth. We do not oppose Japanese or Norwegian whaling we oppose illegal whaling as defined under international conservation law. We do not oppose Canadian or Namibian sealing, we oppose the killing of seals.
Sea Shepherd operates outside the petty cultural chauvinism of the human species. Our clients are whales, dolphins, seals, turtles, sea-birds, and fish. We represent their interests.
Our volunteer crewmembers come from all over the world including from the nations that we are forced to oppose such as Japan, Norway, and Canada.
We are not anti-any nationality or culture. We are pro-Ocean and we work in the interests of all life on Earth. We only oppose criminals and criminal operations.

Source: http://www.seashepherd.org/who-we-are/equality-statement.html

Kazuaki Shimazaki II

08-19-09, 05:16 AM

Equality Statement
Sea Shepherd Conservation Society operates internationally without prejudice towards race, color, nationality, religious belief, or any other consideration except for an impartial adherence to upholding international conservation law to protect endangered marine species and ecosystems.
In the United States, IIRC for better or worse, there is a legal concept that whether you are discriminatory is based on results. Thus, even w/o obvious signs of discrimination, if the resulf of a certain policy affects for better or worse a group much more than others, then the policy IS legally discriminatory unless one can show otherwise, or show why the discriminatory policy should be permitted due to necessity.
Nothing could be further from the truth. We do not oppose Japanese or Norwegian whaling we oppose illegal whaling as defined under international conservation law. We do not oppose Canadian or Namibian sealing, we oppose the killing of seals.
For better or worse, for whaling there's only apparently an agreement, not a law nor a treaty. Even if it DID have the status of law, both countries are apparently at least staying technically legal. One might say something about staying "technically" legal, but that's what happens when "laws" that don't fit the needs of particular parties are passed under duress (thanks to America) - the aggrieved parties obey only minimally, and Norway just used its right to object, since the US apparently didn't have the convenient leverage to lean on them so hard.
And since it is not illegal, what's left?

Skybird

08-19-09, 05:29 AM

The problem here, like quite often, is that protest only is considered as acceptable as long as it is done in a way that enforces no change or consequences to what the protest is directed against. In other words: let them talk and wave posters as long as they want - if only it does not change anything.

Fact is the Japanese are betraying the global public about whaling since years and decades. They are liars on this, and quite blatant liars indeed, and they spend ridiculous sums and efforts on international corruption and bribary to buy votes of others nations (who often have no interest in whaling at all) when whaling decisions are about to be made. Fact also is it is not so much about eating whale meat (most younger Japanese do not like it!) but national pride of not bowing to international pressure, resulting in a policy of stubborness. The Japanese government had to conduct a huge promotion campaign some years ago to advertise eating whale products in Japanese media. It is more a "cultural thing" than a thing of taste. But their yearly headless mass-slaughtering of dolphins on the beach also is a cultural thing.

I spit on such cultural things, and I throw my disgust and anger in their face over that bloodthirsty event.

Either you have a principal thing with killing animals and eating them, or you have not. If the latter, you have a responsibility nevertheless to serve your eating habits and spending your life in such a way that you do not take more from the global ecosphere and do not more damage to it than it can replace and regenerate. And here is the problem. Because our fishing habits, amongst many other of our lethal habits, habe emptied the oceans and brought many species close to or beyond the brink of extinction.

Whaling factories are like other death factories on land. But usually there is no violent protest against killing chicken, swine, and cattle in these factories.

I have a problem with the way we bring paintings of Bosch to life in such death factories, to feed our oh so precious masses. That'S why I have reduced my meat consumation to a very, very low level. We could not feed these masses of humans without industrialised, centralised farming, to think that would be possible by means of "bio" strategies alone is naive. Not to mention the desatrous energy balance regarding turning crop and water, into meat. Fromm that perspective alone it makes no sense at all.

Which brings me to an old argument of mine that cannot be disconnected from any discussion of ecologic issues, and is a very dominant anchor point and key issue to adressing problems of shortening sweet water reserves, food, climate change: 7 billion human people on earth are simply too much. We are too damn many people, and we kill our host - the planet - like a virus is killing it's host - an infected organism - too. At least we kill those parts of it that are vital for higher lifeform's existence, including ourselve.

Legally, Sea Shepard may travel on dangerous ground. But morally they hold the superior ground over the Japanese, and any other whaling nation. Which means that the legal basis and the laws being used on such an incident do not reflect morally valid values, making the legal situation a problem in itself - that is true for both the act of ramming a ship - and also the Japanese whalers cheating the public with their scientific BS excuses. the solution can only be the government bringing whaling to a total zero and bringing the fisherman into different work. That fishermen worldwide need to feed their families cannot be an excuse until the end of time to help destroying the ecosphere in the ocean, beside all the other industrial damage we are doing to it. The criterion is "Nachhaltigkeit", what is the English word for that? another criterion is the ammount of terror we bring upon other intelligent, feeling life forms, and the ammount of suffering we make them subject to when taking profit of their existence.

A law is just an arbitrary rule. It can be just, or unjust. It can be morally valid, or it can be immoral. A law can be unappropriate for a given issue, due to absence of a better suited law. Laws can collide with other laws, lowering or increasing the resulting legal damage.

I will not openly applaud Sea Shepard, but I have sympathy for their cause and their determination as well. Which makes me tolerating their action. that may be somewhat unthankful, maybe, but I am sure those subscribing to such tactics know in advance that they will be seen as a necessary evil at best, and never receive applaus from the oh so civilised world.

Contact

08-19-09, 05:46 AM

Thank you Skybird, I completely agree with every single line you wrote. It is always a pleasure to read your thoughts that are layed in series so precisly and delivered to reader in calm, without strong emotions way.
This is something I admire since I'm too hothead to do it myself. Appreciating it :salute:

Skybird

08-19-09, 05:50 AM

:oops: [blush response]

Aramike

08-19-09, 12:42 PM

I agree with you Skybird in that the human population has become unsustainable. However, nature (both human and otherwise) seems to have run out of solutions. Sadly enough, we have to accept that for the problem to be rectified there needs to be a disaster.

Onto whaling, I am as morally repulsed by it as anyone else. But I am equally (if not more) morally repulsed by the vigilante actions of a group that is doing NOTHING if not raising sympathies and support for the Japanese whalers. Any group that equivocates animal life with human life deserves no support!

For instance, I am a donating member of the ASPCA, but I'd never be aligned with those nuts from PETA. The SS group reminds me of a more extreme version of PETA and have claimed the sinking of several ships. To that end, what have they accomplished? They've inconvienienced the Japanese, perhaps - but they are still going to get their whales. And if the point is to take some sort of idiotic revenge for a humanized animal, they've done nothing more than make the rest of us rational thinkers stop and wonder - "who're the bad guys?"

Indeed, one can say that protest without direct action seems pointless or more acceptible, but one must ignore the fact that protest has driven much change throughout the centuries. But in any case, if you are going to take action, you should be sure that it's meaningful and supported - and won't backfire upon your cause.

Tribesman

08-19-09, 03:48 PM

Look, if you want just to rant yourself up go ahead. But you're getting weak on weight arguments mate. You're just pathetic now..
Well I must say that I didn't think it would be so easy , I really thought dedicated fruitcakes would put up more of a believable arguement.
So then one tough herring are you ridiculously attempting to deny that all those policies I mentioned are on the sea shepherd website?
Are you really attempting to say that Paul Watsons editorial conmmentary published on that website on Friday May 4th 2007 is a figment of my imagination?
Or is it that you simply have no idea how bat**** crazy these loonies are?

Then again Ireland isn't the most should I say ecologically oriented nation in the world so I can sort of understand where you are coming from.
Wow , so you not only have a silly racist thing about America but also about Ireland...thats a good measure.

The SS is still out there so I guess your prediction is far from coming true. Or should I even say, false
Or should you ?
The removal of Dutch registration is currently ongoing, all previous efforts to remove registration for violation of maritime law have been succesful.
Do you really ridiculously believe that the Dutch will somehow violate maritime law for a bunch of nutters

OneToughHerring

08-20-09, 09:06 AM

Wow , so you not only have a silly racist thing about America but also about Ireland...thats a good measure.

I wasn't talking about race as much as the environmental politics of nations or more the lack of any. Unfortunately Ireland doesn't rank very high when it comes to nations that take care of nature.

Or should you ?
The removal of Dutch registration is currently ongoing, all previous efforts to remove registration for violation of maritime law have been succesful.
Do you really ridiculously believe that the Dutch will somehow violate maritime law for a bunch of nutters

For the third time, I'll believe it when I see it. Wonder if fourth time will be needed.

With the support that the SS recieves I would consider them to be in the mainstream of environmental movements. With their own show on Animal Planet and support from big names such as the Dalai Lama I see no reason not to support them.

ETR3(SS)

08-20-09, 09:22 AM

I wasn't talking about race as much as the environmental politics of nations or more the lack of any. Unfortunately Ireland doesn't rank very high when it comes to nations that take care of nature.

For the third time, I'll believe it when I see it. Wonder if fourth time will be needed.

With the support that the SS recieves I would consider them to be in the mainstream of environmental movements. With their own show on Animal Planet and support from big names such as the Dalai Lama I see no reason not to support them.
Might I point out that having their own show is to promote Animal Planets ratings and get more funding for themselves(Animal Planet not SS). Shock and Awe sell quite well to the populous. And as for the Dalai Lama he is the leader of a Theocratic government in exile. Would anybody listen to the Pope and the Catholic Church if they got kicked out of the Vatican?

Letum

08-20-09, 09:52 AM

Would anybody listen to the Pope and the Catholic Church if they got kicked out of the Vatican?

The vatican has been in exile several times in history. At times it became
disorganized; usualy because there was more than one pope, but it still kept a
good deal of it's authority and was certainly listened to.

OneToughHerring

08-20-09, 10:40 AM

Might I point out that having their own show is to promote Animal Planets ratings and get more funding for themselves(Animal Planet not SS). Shock and Awe sell quite well to the populous. And as for the Dalai Lama he is the leader of a Theocratic government in exile. Would anybody listen to the Pope and the Catholic Church if they got kicked out of the Vatican?

Ok I'll remember that next time the US has difficulties paying back it's debts to China and tries to use the Tibet - issue to attack China. :O:

Tribesman

08-20-09, 12:19 PM

Unfortunately Ireland doesn't rank very high when it comes to nations that take care of nature.

Thats true, take the Saimaa ringed seal for an example.
It only lives in Irish waters and is on the critical list of endangered species as its population is unable to breed at a level that will reduce the threat of total extinction...yet the Irish government refuses to ban the fishing which kills these seals year after year because it would upset the locals.
I am so glad your country doesn't face these problems or you would look very silly complaining about other countries.

For the third time, I'll believe it when I see it. Wonder if fourth time will be needed.

You shouldn't have to wait to long, the papers were submitted by the minister at the end of June so should work their way through the Dutch system by October.

August

08-20-09, 02:16 PM

Ok I'll remember that next time the US has difficulties paying back it's debts to China and tries to use the Tibet - issue to attack China. :O:

Yeah because you don't actually care about the plight of the Tibetans, it's all about dissing the USA right?

OneToughHerring

08-20-09, 02:29 PM

Yeah because you don't actually care about the plight of the Tibetans, it's all about dissing the USA right?

That's something you'll have to work out with ETR3(SS), he's the one who started dissing the Dalai Lama.

August

08-20-09, 02:41 PM

That's something you'll have to work out with ETR3(SS), he's the one who started dissing the Dalai Lama.

I see you don't deny it...

FIREWALL

08-20-09, 03:13 PM

Is their something about the meaning of the word "EXTINCT" that doesn't sink in. :roll:

Contact

08-20-09, 03:15 PM

I see you don't deny it...

Back off from my mate you hyenas! Or I'll slip ya throughts open with my pirate long knife! :arrgh!::arrgh!::arrgh!:

FIREWALL

08-20-09, 03:18 PM

Maybe N. Korea has a use after all. :yeah:

ETR3(SS)

08-20-09, 03:37 PM

That's something you'll have to work out with ETR3(SS), he's the one who started dissing the Dalai Lama.
Because I don't worship the ground that the Dalai Lama walks on I'm dissing him? I guess I'm dissing the Pope too then.

OneToughHerring

08-21-09, 05:44 AM

I see you don't deny it...

I care more about the Tibetans then the Americans who only care about them when it's time to pay back the loan they took from China.

Tribesman,

I never said my country is perfect in terms of ecology and nature preservation, it's just a whole lot better then, say, Ireland. Significantly better. That's exactly why the SS is needed, to bring much needed attention to the plight of endangered species. You sound like a nationalist, are you a nationalist? Or maybe even a racist, considering how quick you were to bring up the issue of race earlier?

October, you say? Well you, me and...August will see in...October. :)

August

08-21-09, 07:09 AM

I care more about the Tibetans then the Americans who only care about them when it's time to pay back the loan they took from China.

That's a lie. You care nothing about the Dali Lama or the SS for that matter, other than as an excuse to indulge in your favorite sport, America bashing.

Tribesman

08-21-09, 08:35 AM

I never said my country is perfect in terms of ecology and nature preservation
Really , then it was a very silly move for you to go slagging off other countries then.
it's just a whole lot better then, say, Ireland. Significantly better.
Thats so true, I am so glad Finland isn't driving its unique species to extinction in the same way as Ireland is .:har::har::har:
So just for the fun of it why not look at the European list of endangered species. then compare how many endangered species Finland has exempted from its own list to those of other nations.
You really are living in a fantasy world if you think a country which still permits the hunting of endangered species can stand up to a comparison test with other nations .
You really have gone off blind on this topic havn't you

You sound like a nationalist, are you a nationalist?
:har::har::har::har::har:
Not in the slightest , a country as far as I am concerned is just some lines on a map where you have to utilise different ways of avoiding tax.

Jimbuna

08-21-09, 08:58 AM

http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img104/2807/icontennisyk3.gif

Thomen

08-21-09, 09:20 AM

http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/1974.gif

Kloef

08-21-09, 09:58 AM

as far as i'm concerned every whale killing vessel should be blasted out of the water....they make great practice targets for subs too..

Small adress to japanese people,if you permit me...

Japanese tourist,listen....

Stop coming to my country please!!

Its not normal to ring the door and ask if you can look around,its not a museum its my house...

And we dont like people that look the other way so we have to step out of the way to avoid banging into you,we both avoid or we bang,and you accept the consequences because i'm 6 foot 3 and 200 pounds..

We dont go to your country EN MASSE,and you shouldnt too!

Yes wooden shoes are worn by some Dutch,but not 80% of the population as you might think,we mostly sell them to stupid tourists like you,for ridiculous prices,hahahaha!!! wanna buy some??

And the most important thing for me,stop taking pictures of tall people,its just our average male size,really tall people excepted offcourse..the next one who does is having 'camera casserole' for diner....

As for japanese girls,i love you i really do but stop giggling in our faces ALL THE TIME,its rude and disrespectfull..and stop wearing clothes that make you look like a 12 year old,age never lies..

And please,we want to get to know you so we talk to you,dont go ape on us because we are part of the scene and really can talk,its a country not a museum with live animation...if that happens to be your thing,stay in Japan and visit Holland village..they actually build a Dutch village,fake VOC ship included,and people riding bikes with a tulip in their hand,walking on wooden shoes,you want the old Holland? thats the closest you will ever come even better then the original country..

To conclude,we have lots of old fishing villages with strange people wearing clothes that were fashionable in like 1356,so NOT EVERYONE has to go to just that one village which happens to be close to Schiphol airport,and clutter our highways with busses,cabs and worse,public transport.....you screw our arrival times by asking the most difficult questions in something remotely simular to some kind of English...we lose jobs and companies because of you.

Think about the people in that village called Marken,they go trough hell every day because you 'want pictare prease?'Also bear in mind these dressed up people are frauds...they still dress like that so they can steal from you selling their terrible souvenirs at crazy prizes,its junk.We dont make it in our little souvenirshops,we import thousands of tons of the stuff from Asia..

I was kidding for a bit,just a bit,if you all come and it would stop you from eating whale meat by just being here(whalemeat is illigal here) you are very much wellcome,i have room for bed and breakfast for 2 Japanese girls all the time.

Believe me this post has more effect then just complaining about Japanese whale eating and mass tourism,you need to provoke them and Sea Shephard does just that...i love those guys because they dont stand by and watch,they act!

Every Japanese tourist should be informed that we really disapprove of eating whale...bet you it will work because they really all come to my country in some point in their lives.

August

08-21-09, 10:50 AM

Every Japanese tourist should be informed that we really disapprove of eating whale...bet you it will work because they really all come to my country in some point in their lives.

Do you think it would work as well as all the "Brits out of Northern Ireland" graffiti I saw adorning your buildings and bridges when I visited back in '79?

Tribesman

08-21-09, 11:30 AM

Every Japanese tourist should be informed that we really disapprove of eating whale...bet you it will work because they really all come to my country in some point in their lives.

That would be like the idiots that rant at North American tourists because Bush was a ***** , it works well at informing the tourists that there are ranting idiots around.

August

08-21-09, 11:32 AM

I hope it will have more effect then our 'lets paint anti British slogans on every bridge and building in the name of all Dutchman' campaign but we learned alot in between 30 years...man that was a long time ago..great year though with a beatifull Indian summer,remember?

It was one of the best summers of my entire life (so far) and the Nijmegen March was the highlight of it.

Dont take life to serious mate...i was just kidding around to take some heat off the tread..but its true,they all come here,nice people especially the girls,maybe its the whalemeat cause they have beautifull skins..

Oh i'm not taking it too serious. I probably should have added a smiley to my last post. :DL

Kloef

08-21-09, 11:35 AM

:DL

I just deleted that post:rotfl:Northern ireland is of no concern anymore i guess..we shouldnt take an old cow from the canal as we say here..

It was one of the best summers of my entire life (so far) and the Nijmegen March was the highlight of it.You were in the military probably,right?Bet you were cheered on and it made you feel good..

Tribesman wrote:

That would be like the idiots that rant at North American tourists because Bush was a ***** , it works well at informing the tourists that there are ranting idiots around.Politics and whales dont mix very well i guess.I dont mind people ranting,i just ignore them.Also we are used to see people express their opinions all the time,its part of the Western culture..people are so easily offended and insulted these days,my advise get a hobby or a girlfriend,or both..

OneToughHerring

08-21-09, 12:22 PM

That's a lie. You care nothing about the Dali Lama or the SS for that matter, other than as an excuse to indulge in your favorite sport, America bashing.

Chill out, man. The SS is American, right? So how do you deduce that I'm anti-American if I support them...?

As far as the Dalai Lama is concerned I don't care what you think about my opinion about him.

Really , then it was a very silly move for you to go slagging off other countries then.

And why exactly is this?

Thats so true, I am so glad Finland isn't driving its unique species to extinction in the same way as Ireland is .:har::har::har:
So just for the fun of it why not look at the European list of endangered species. then compare how many endangered species Finland has exempted from its own list to those of other nations.
You really are living in a fantasy world if you think a country which still permits the hunting of endangered species can stand up to a comparison test with other nations .
You really have gone off blind on this topic havn't you

No, I don't think so. There are organisations like the SS in Finland as well. Also the Saimaa seal is protected so I don't know what your point is.

When it comes to overall ecological 'level' of a nation there are no '100% ecological' nations around. However there are countries that do more then others. Here's a list (by the Americans) about the 'ecology level' of certain nations. Ireland really doesn't rank very high. You can get the specifics when you click the country name.

http://epi.yale.edu/CountryScores

Not in the slightest , a country as far as I am concerned is just some lines on a map where you have to utilise different ways of avoiding tax.

Oh yea, tax evasion. Tell me that you also indulge in beating up Polish immigrants and I will believe that you are indeed a 100% Irishman.

Tribesman

08-21-09, 02:14 PM

Also the Saimaa seal is protected so I don't know what your point is.

Its protected???? So on average how many are killed each year by fishermen in Finland?
How many animals on the critical list of endangered species can you legally kill in Finland?

However there are countries that do more then others. Here's a list (by the Americans) about the 'ecology level' of certain nations. Ireland really doesn't rank very high. You can get the specifics when you click the country name.

What an interesting chart , if you reset the parameters to conservation Finland really plummets , if you do it to marine conservation and protection it plummets even further ..if you do it to critical species conservation it drops right down the list.
You really do make it too easy, have you ever considered thinking before you write?

Oh yea, tax evasion. Tell me that you also indulge in beating up Polish immigrants and I will believe that you are indeed a 100% Irishman.
More racist stereotyping on your part, you really shoud learn to not be so silly.

OneToughHerring

08-21-09, 03:02 PM

Its protected???? So on average how many are killed each year by fishermen in Finland?
How many animals on the critical list of endangered species can you legally kill in Finland?

I'm not sure, presumably quite a few. None for 'scientific purposes'. This is supposed to make the case for organisations like the SS worse in what way...?

What an interesting chart , if you reset the parameters to conservation Finland really plummets , if you do it to marine conservation and protection it plummets even further ..if you do it to critical species conservation it drops right down the list.
You really do make it too easy, have you ever considered thinking before you write?This is supposed to make the case for organisations like the SS worse in what way...?

Edit. Btw, Finland still does better then Ireland. :D

More racist stereotyping on your part, you really shoud learn to not be so silly.Tell me, how does one go about evading taxes? You being the expert and all.

Tribesman

08-21-09, 06:39 PM

This is supposed to make the case for organisations like the SS worse in what way...?
It is to show your arguements to be of the bollox variety , there is no need to make the sea Shepherds case worse as they have no case at all .

nikimcbee

08-22-09, 02:25 AM

I actually watched part of their show tonight.:dead: While I don't really like whaling, this show just glamo(u)rizes eco-terrorism imo.

Those marus need to arm themselves with a heavy-duty paintball cannon and shoot oil based paint shells at those guys.

on a side note; do the Chinese eat whale. I'd like to see these guys F@#$ around with the PLAN:haha:. "The sea shepard" vanishes in south seas w/o a trace.:arrgh!:

Jimbuna

08-22-09, 04:53 AM

on a side note; do the Chinese eat whale. I'd like to see these guys F@#$ around with the PLAN:haha:. "The sea shepard" vanishes in south seas w/o a trace.:arrgh!:

Good point....I wonder who'd be turned into crispy noodles then :hmmm:

OneToughHerring

08-22-09, 09:33 AM

on a side note; do the Chinese eat whale.

Not to my knowledge.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-06/13/content_451005.htm

XabbaRus

01-06-10, 09:31 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8442808.stm

Really I can't blame the Japanese for doing this.

AVGWarhawk

01-06-10, 11:07 AM

Dowly

01-06-10, 11:22 AM

Who heck finances these guys to go out harrassing whalers anyway?

Was thinking the same thing when I saw that boat. :hmmm:

jimbob

01-06-10, 12:26 PM

It seems logical that a huge craft is rammin' tiny craft.

No way to avoid it.

:spock:

Spike88

01-06-10, 02:59 PM

However, I see the Japanese were using water cannons! Who heck finances these guys to go out harrassing whalers anyway?

People like that guy who was banned for insulting people in the other whaling thread. I believe his name was Contact.

And maybe Discovery Channel. :hmmm:

AVGWarhawk

01-06-10, 03:03 PM

I know Discovery has a whale wars program. It is all fun and games until someone gets hurt. Until then we will make millions. :yeah:

Spike88

01-06-10, 03:10 PM

I know Discovery has a whale wars program. It is all fun and games until someone gets hurt. Until then we will make millions. :yeah:

I wouldn't be surprised if Discovery gave some/ a lot of money to the Sea Shepherds for creation of their "stealth" boat.

Which looks like something out of Batman in my honest opinion.

OneToughHerring

01-06-10, 03:21 PM

People like that guy who was banned for insulting people in the other whaling thread. I believe his name was Contact.

Boo hoo. And he was subsequently keelhauled.

August

01-06-10, 03:39 PM

Looks to me the protesters got their stealth boat type deal much to close to the larger vessel thus getting it crunched. However, I see the Japanese were using water cannons! Who heck finances these guys to go out harrassing whalers anyway?

The video is very telling.

It looks to me like the pilot of the stealth boat hit forward instead of reverse and caused the crash, which as one of my friends commented, fits the skill set the SS people have displayed so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dXCR9LX-Kc

Dowly

01-06-10, 03:43 PM

Yes, the boat definitely was moving forward just prior to the impact.

longam

01-06-10, 03:44 PM

They might want to put some duct tape on that little hole.

Jimbuna

01-06-10, 03:46 PM

If I was the skipper of the bat boat I wouldn't be getting too near something 50 or more times bigger. :nope:

Batman will be well pi$$ed when they return his boat :DL

Ducimus

01-06-10, 04:11 PM

Can't say im much on greenpeace styled activists. They're mostly a bunch of Ecowhacko's that took a long walk of a short pier.

Having said that, i find myself wanting to turn a blind eye to these wacko's when Japans involved. From a sportfisherman's point of view, the Japanese REALLY need to start having A LOT less seafood in their diet. They've pretty much been raping the oceans for all its worth. Many years ago those c**ksuckers came off the Californian coast with Gill nets and I don't think the Tuna population has ever been the same since.

MothBalls

01-06-10, 04:36 PM

If I was the skipper of the whaling ship and they tried to tangle my prop or throw chemicals on my ship I wouldn't use the water cannon, I'd use a regular cannon. If unarmed, I would have sprayed fuel at them then start shooting flares in their direction. You start playing those types of games in the middle of the ocean then it's game on, and for the little boat, game over.

If the problem needs to be fixed (I don't know enough to have an opinion) then it needs to be fixed here:Japan abandoned commercial whaling in 1986 after agreeing to a global moratorium but international rules allow it to annually kill hundreds of whales under the auspices of a research programme.If the rules need to be changed then go through the process. There has to be a proper channel. Attacking or interfering with any large vessel in the open sea is not an acceptable method, period.

I would have zero tollerance for it. Mess with the bull.........

razark

01-06-10, 04:46 PM

Attacking or interfering with any large vessel in the open sea is not an acceptable method, period.

Wouldn't that be one definition of piracy?

Lt.Fillipidis

01-06-10, 05:57 PM

Im not some ecowhacko or treehugger but am i the only one who wouldnt hesitate implale a few of them on their own harpoons?
I mean, this isnt just dolphin and whale "fishing".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkgCTDqQYBE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-7bFlyLuh0

darius359au

01-06-10, 06:51 PM

So , why is it these lot only go after the Japanese? ,there's a large number of countries that hunt whales http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling and in the same quantity's as the Japanese and that are outside of the IWC!

CaptainHaplo

01-06-10, 07:38 PM

I totally agree with Mothballs on this one - go through the proper channels. The Australian PM, Kevin Rudd - seems to agree as well:
http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/australia-considering-whaling-challenge-3283925

However, you commit criminal acts of aggression against a ship in international waters, your asking for a response. I am amazed the Japanese haven't sent a single FF out with the fleet - and as soon as someone tries to foul a prop detain the lot of em and charge them as pirates.... or just sink them. When they first approach, first warn them away, and if they persist, let em do something criminal, and let em get what they have earned.

As for the question of whaling - the main target is Minke whale. Now - in 1985 the IWC estimated the Southern Hemisphere Minke whale population at 761,000 - with a 95% confidence rating on that estimate. The low and high numbers were 510,000 and 1.14 Million respectively. The Japanese have never taken more that 1100 whales in any recent year. That means if you use even the lowest estimate - the 510,000 number - the MOST they have taken amounts to 0.2% of the population....

This amount is definitely sustainable by any standard - so the idea that they are "raping the ocean" in this particular case is not factual. There may have been other instances where they did - but this is not one of them.

Also - its interesting to note that President Reagan closed American waters to Japanese whaling in 1988 over this issue....

Snestorm

01-06-10, 07:40 PM

They went looking for trouble, and they found it.

So far it is fortunate that their stupidity has not cost any lives.
It would be a positive developement if any insurance company involved found the little boat's actions to be neglegent, and withheld any compensation therefrom.

It would indeed be interesting to learn who is financing this potentialy deadly activity.

Neptunus Rex

01-06-10, 07:49 PM

I said it before on the other thread. These nuts are committing piracy on the high seas and should be dealt with. At the very least, Australia and New Zealand and any other nation should bar entry to their ports.

Skybird

01-06-10, 07:53 PM

Japanese whaling, all in the name of science. Yeah sure, science.

The real grim joke is that some years ago the Japanese government spend millions on avertising campaigns to make the eating of whale meat more popular with young Japanese, becasue whale meat consummation had broken down and threatened the industry. Because many young Japanese - do not like the taste of it. for the Japanese traditionalists, it is more about demonstrating their national sovereignity by giving piss about international whale protection, then it is about solid economic interest.

Once tasted whale meat myself, in Japanese kitchen preparation. Tasted terrible, like rotten. Two bites, and I almost had to vomit. Had nothing to do with the taste of Sushi (which I also do not like: raw fish, and cold, and glibbery). No wonder: whales are no fishes, but mammals, and eating raw mammal is not to everybody's taste. Not even to the taste of the latest models of Japanese consumers. but the damn tradition must be upheld. Like slaughtering hundreds of pamnicking dolphins on the beach, too, for tradition. I would participiate in that bloodshed, but it wouldn't be the dolphins I go after, but stupid big apes.

(I hold Japanese - as well as Chinese - culture for the most in high respect, and my mentor, trainer and teacher was Japanese, so don't even think of accusing me of blind racism when expressing my anger abiut some certain barbaric habits. I would find the same clear words about the Spanishs' perverted love for bull killing).

CaptainHaplo

01-06-10, 07:59 PM

SNES - according to one article - the boat that was rammed was named after the millionaire who provided the funding for it. Also - the crew was rescued by the "Bob Barker" - who gave the group $5 Million dollars recently.

Most Americans will recognize Bob as a former game show host who kept that gig for something like 2 or 3 decades....

Tribesman

01-07-10, 05:23 AM

Nice to see these muppets back in the news.
Press release #1 escalating the battle and going on the offensive , feeling like an admiral with new vessels to bring on the fight in the frontline.
Press release #2 nasty Japanese in an unprovoked attack on innocent vessel that was doing nothing...honestly.

Oh dear the new boat might be sinking :rotfl2:

Schroeder

01-07-10, 06:17 AM

@Skybird

I was thinking the same thing. The brutal slaughter of those animals is disgusting.:down:

XabbaRus

01-07-10, 06:33 AM

Maybe but that does not condone the tactics Sea Shepherd use.

XabbaRus

01-07-10, 06:58 AM

There is already a thread for this under Boo Hoo Hoo NOT!!!!!!

Skybird

01-07-10, 07:26 AM

In this context, only those tatctics are considered acceptable that do not have any effect and leaves the Japanese carrying on to buy support from else uninterested 3rd world countries, and kill whales for endless scientific researches to demonstrate what a proud, independent people they are. Have a peaceful boat journey at a respectable distance, hold up a sign or two, and let them carry on whaling. Wowh. I'm impressed.

Where peaceful protest for a justified cause is ignored, legal or not: more pressing, and from some point on even violant tactics become ethically acceptable. It depends on the cause.

The killing of whales in principle is not different from the industrial mass slaughtering of cattle. The difference is that there is a market for cattle (I would say this market can be reduced in size, and should, but nevertheless: the cattle is wnated for getting eaten). But whaling is looking for often hilarious and absurd excuses to undermine data on endangered populations.

Also, in case of the dolphins massacre festival and Spanish bull killing, the killing serves no purpose to feed somebody. It is done for enjoying the killing. and enjoying to kill is one of the most disgusting characteristics of some people.

In southern France, they also had a tradition of fights between man and a bull. but here, the fight was different, and did not endwith the animal being killed. They had colourful bows tied to their horns, and the hero had to face the beast and rip them off one by one, instead of ramming a sabre into it, and letting it bleed and suffer long before.

The industry we have created for the purpose os mass killing, is disgusting, and the way we deal with parts of creation inside slauightering factories, is a shame for our race. It is my primary argument why I have been vegetarian for 10 years, and when I went back to have some meat on rare occasions I make sure sijnce then that it comes from a local farmer here who manually slaughters himself, not in some damn killing factory. We consider pictures of Hieronymus Bosch depicting hell - but we do not hesitate to throw living, feeling, knowing creatures into this very same hell by the hundreds of thousands every day, letting them suffer fear and panick and pain. Shame on us.

So you see, I do not need methane agendas to propagate low meat consummation. Beyond methane, I could point at the immense environmental destruction mass cattle farming creates, but however.

Lt.Fillipidis

01-07-10, 07:36 AM

in 1985 the IWC estimated the Southern Hemisphere Minke whale population at 761,000 - with a 95% confidence rating on that estimate.

Thats 25 years ago. Back then even the Hyacinth Macaw wasnt endangered.
Anyway, thats not my point.
I wonder how come such a big mammal to exist in such great numbers if they are correct today. As far as i know, these creatures give birth to one baby whale at a time.

Fish

01-07-10, 03:23 PM

I didn't read all posts in this thread, but did anyone point out it was illegal what the japanese are doing there?

Japan has placed itself above the law because it assumes no government in the world would show the will to actively accuse and legally prosecute Japan for their many violations of international conservation laws. The only entity that has dared to stand up and act is Sea Shepherd. The Netherlands now has an opportunity to join the legal and ethical side in this battle.
Will the Dutch government narrow-mindedly support illegal whaling operations, or will they support the only organization actively seeking to uphold those same laws by not pandering to Japanese objections?
http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/news-090702-1.html

August

01-07-10, 03:27 PM

I didn't read all posts in this thread, but did anyone point out it was illegal what the japanese are doing there?

You'll have to find a link much less biased. AFAIK whaling moratoriums are voluntary.

Fish

01-07-10, 03:32 PM

:DL

You were in the military probably,right?Bet you were cheered on and it made you feel good..

I was when I walk the Vierdaagse. :salute:

Fish

01-07-10, 03:39 PM

You'll have to find a link much less biased. AFAIK whaling moratoriums are voluntary.

Although commercial whaling is banned, whaling for scientific purposes is permitted by the International Whaling Commission (IWC). But about 428 minke whales have been taken illegally under a law passed by Australia in 2000, alleges Nicola Beynon of HIS. This legislation banned the harassment or harm of whales within all Australia's territorial waters, including waters that it claims in Antarctica.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6548-japan-accused-of-illegal-whaling-in-australia.html
August, you realy think they hunt whales because of scientific purpose?

Tribesman

01-07-10, 05:35 PM

Fish, thats a petition filed 6 years ago, the petition was a waste of time as it relates to an Australian territorial claim that only 4 nations recognise.
So they won the case, but as the judge said, it is an unenforcable ruling.

August

01-07-10, 09:04 PM

[/URL]August, you realy think they hunt whales because of scientific purpose?

Doesn't matter. The IWC is toothless. From the wiki article on the IWC:

IWC is a voluntary international organisation and is not backed up by treaty. Therefore, the IWC, in essence, is a voluntary organization which has substantial practical limitations on its authority. First, any member countries are free to simply leave the organization and declare themselves not bound by it if they so wish. Second, any member state may opt out of any specific IWC regulation by lodging a formal objection to it within 90 days of the regulation coming into force[19] (such provisions are common in international agreements, on the logic that it is preferable to have parties remain within the agreements than opt out altogether). Third, the IWC has no ability to enforce any of its decisions through penalty imposition.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Whaling_Commission (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6548-japan-accused-of-illegal-whaling-in-australia.html)

If Japan or any other country wants to start up full scale commercial whaling there is no law that prevents them.

Torvald Von Mansee

01-08-10, 12:35 AM

Wow...WTF is wrong w/you people that would side w/the JAPANESE on this matter??? They're breaking the whaling ban in spirit, and you know it!!!

nikimcbee

01-08-10, 01:03 AM

I wonder why the Japanese don't just raise their own whales, like cattle if that's possible? They'd have their own whale pod and wouldn't be impacting the wild whales.

nikimcbee

01-08-10, 01:05 AM

darius359au

01-08-10, 03:52 AM

You mean their 2 million dollar boat?:haha: It makes great emotional tv for animal planet though.

You mean the 2 million dollar boat that's imitating a submarine now?:D
I wonder if they took all the fuel and stuff off before it sank so there's no nasty oil slicks?

MothBalls

01-08-10, 04:39 AM

I didn't recognize it at first. That's the old Earthrace boat that got hit.

I've been on that boat, talked with the old crew. On the inside it really wasn't that impressive. I saw it when they were on their world tour and they stopped in Oceanside and San Diego. That was the boat that instead of going over waves it was designed to go through them.

http://www.earthrace.net/

@ Some of the comment's about supporting the Japanese, like I said earlier, I don't know enough to form an opinion. If the numbers posted earlier are correct and they are taking less that 0.2% of the population, then let them fish. If that isn't correct and they are endangering the species then do something about it legally.

For all the treehuggers and the "Let's all find something to save this week" crowd, bite me. Save the humans, then we'll talk about the animals.

Tribesman

01-08-10, 06:13 AM

Wow...WTF is wrong w/you people that would side w/the JAPANESE on this matter??? They're breaking the whaling ban in spirit, and you know it!!!

It isn't siding with the Japanese on the matter, its just opposing the idiots in SeaShepherd.

karamazovnew

01-09-10, 04:26 PM

I love whales. They're intelligent and gentle animals (Killer Whales not included). But so are other animals we kill for food, without farming them for it. Since we're too stupid to completely stop eating meat I say we have absolutely no right to judge anything on the matter. We're simply reacting to what to us seems outside the norm. Has anyone wondered why we don't eat goat meat? Hey... they're more delicious and stupid than cows. It all comes down to long established habits and economic value. Unless you fight those, you fight for nothing.

Now, these Sea Shepards guys have really crossed the thin line with this ramming thing. This TV sponsored madness must stop fast. I've sailed through pirate infested waters and it's damn serious stuff there. Once a threat has been established you're allowed to use any means necessary to protect your crew. On one occasion we had warning shots fired at us from a decent-sized pirate ship and the captain decided to play nice and stall for time until a destroyer could assist us (we love those guys). He forbid us from using any force (we had water cannons and molotov cocktails) and he later explained to me "At the moment it's an even fight. If they shoot a gun, we surrender. If we raise the bar, they'll raise it too. If you shoot a gun, they'll shoot and RPG. It's not our job to stop them. We're just a civilian ship to them. Once we become a threat, they'll treat us as such." The ship I was on had been boarded twice and the pirates just stole some money and a few crew laptops and booze (the mechanics weren't amused). The atmosphere was almost "friendly" and the pirates were even invited to a meal to negociate. He told us about one company ship that decided to fight back a while back. The pirates eventually overpowered them, and then beat the crap out of them and even shot 2 people in retaliation. On our round trip we were attacked again by a smaller boat with more men. This time it was much more serious and we did risk being taken hostage with no backup or options at all (no "secret cache" to pay them to leave us alone). We ambushed the bastards in a way I will not describe. Suffice to say they didn't survive. We kept the matter pretty low to avoid future complications. Even the later inquiry was kept very secretive.

What I mean by this is that the Sea Shepard has just raised the bar. They can now be considered as a real threat. It's just a matter of time before they'll be rammed and sunk. And of course the media will turn them into a sort of Civil Rights victims... yeah right.

Jimbuna

01-09-10, 04:40 PM

I honestly believe there is sufficient film footage of the dangerous antics the SS get up to available to the public to prevent a tidal wave of sympathy coming their way in the event of such a mishap.

I would say a mishap is not only foreseeable but almost inevitable.

Happy Times

01-10-10, 09:59 AM

Di´dnt read all the posts but to me the Sea Shepherds acts come close to terrorism/piratism.

OneToughHerring

01-10-10, 10:24 AM

Di´dnt read all the posts but to me the Sea Shepherds acts come close to terrorism/piratism.

Agreed. Let's let the Russians bomb the SS headquarters in the US and deal with this terrorist problem once and for all.

CaptainHaplo

01-10-10, 10:49 AM

Happy Times

01-10-10, 11:11 AM

They are not terrorist acts - because they cause no death or terror to their opponents. However, they are acting as pirates. Too often people throw out words without considering their meaning - and in this case, terrorism doesn't apply.

True, im just not very familiar with iternational maritime law, only that it is one of oldests forms of international law.

XabbaRus

01-10-10, 11:45 AM

They planned to bomb a Russian whaling ship with paint filled lightbulbs.

Now that would have been interesting.

August

01-10-10, 12:14 PM

The SS aren't terrorists,.. yet. The trouble with extremists though is that, like the bar in a high jump competition, the definition of "extreme" keeps getting higher and higher.

NeonSamurai

01-10-10, 12:14 PM

They are not terrorist acts - because they cause no death or terror to their opponents. However, they are acting as pirates. Too often people throw out words without considering their meaning - and in this case, terrorism doesn't apply.

Are they acting as pirates though? I don't see any criminal acts of violence, detention or depredation. Mostly just nuisance and harassment. Otherwise Japan surely would have charged them by now with piracy.

CaptainHaplo

01-10-10, 03:53 PM

Neon - regardless of how big your ship is - if you lose your props, your at the mercy of the waves. Ships have sunk because of it. Sea Shephard was noted to have attempted to tangle the prop of the whaler. That alone is a criminal act in accordance with Maritime Law. On land we call it attempted murder. It also is an attack on what is currently legal (though despicable) acts in international waters.

Also note they admit to using "photonic" weapons - aka laser light - to blind fishermen.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sea-shepherds-hi-tech-weaponry-to-harass-whalers/story-e6freuy9-1225813660593

This is at the least, called assault in most countries.

Also - on the ramming - the video shows that the Ady Gil was in fact under power when it was hit. The law of the Sea dictates that the more maneuverable vessel provide right of way to any less maneuverable. For example - a sailboat has the right of way over a speedboat, but not over a rowboat. The Ady Gill is CLEARLY the more maneuverable vessel, and as such must yield the right of way to the Japanese whaler. Instead, as the video shows, they actually accelerated INTO the collision, when by every standard they should have been removing themselves from any possible collision.

As for "criminal acts" of violence - you may not be aware that the founder of Sea Shephard - Paul Watson, was convicted in 1997 in Norway for the scuttling of a whaler and ramming a Norwegian Coast Guard vessel. In addition, he has an outstanding warrant on his head out of Costa Rica for attempted murder and destruction of property resulting from an altercation with a Costa Rican fishing vessel.

Sea Shephard claims in 1980 to have sunk the whaling ship "Sierra" in Lisbon Harbor. In 1981 they claim to have sunk the whalers "Ilsa 1" and "Ilsa 2" in the Spanish harbor of Viga. In 1988, Sea Shephard claims responsibility for sinking 2 Icelandic vessels and damaging an Icelandic Whaling station.

As to the concern of "raping the oceans" - the Minke whale (the major target of the Japanese fleet) is deemed to NOT be endangered or even "threatened" according to the IUCN - which is the recognized authority on classifying endangered species.

Just contrast the following:

Sea Shepherd adheres to the utilization of non-violent principles in the course of all actions and has taken a standard against violence in the protection of the oceans. "
- SeaShepherd.org official website, July 2009

"If you don't know an answer, a fact, a statistic - make it up on the spot." - Paul Watson, Earthforce: An Earth Warrior's Guide to Strategy

"There's nothing wrong with being a terrorist as long as you win."
"Earthworms are far more valuable than people."
"We should never feel like we're going too far in breaking the law, because whatever laws you break to liberate animals or to protect the environment are very insignificant."
"The fact is we live in an extremely violent culture, and we all justify violence if its for what we believe in."
- Paul Watson, speaking at the Animal Rights 2002 convention.

Sea Shephard acts - both historically and in this case - violate the law. The only reason that nations don't make more of an issue with it - is simply why give this man what he craves - attention? Instead, the nations involved (and Japan is not the only one Sea Shephard targets) allow the actions themselves to minimize the groups efforts.