Looking for The Voice of Experience...

[Briney]

I posted this on the SH4 Forum... no results. So I am trying here... [I am currently a Brand New 'Boot' in SH4]

I am looking for comments on the game "Dangerous Waters", from those that have played BOTH SH4 and DW, please. I'm quite new to these games and only recently found out about DW. It 'sounds' interesting, although the True Squids I know [that retired from the Silent Service] suggest that a game made of Attack Boat sensors, while intriguing, is not likely to be as 'entertaining' as SH4...with both undersea and surface activity. Without getting into too many details I *retired* from Sea Service THIRTY TWO years ago and now lack the 'quick eval' capability for a flight game; that's why I'm here.

It's not the cost, rather the 'is it entertaining as well as time filling'...?

Thanks for putting up with a pretty crusty Salt...

[SwordfishCrew]

Welcome the forum!

I have played DW/SH3/SH4. So I will pass on some comments.

SH4, as you know, is in the WW2 era. Nice graphics and a good campaign engine. Game consists mainly of hunting down convoys and sinking as much as you can. With some photo recon missions thrown in.

Different sub types are available and newer equipment becomes available during the game. Multi player is there, mostly wolf pack against convoy type of play. I tried Multi Player and did not like it, game is much too slow without the time compression you have in single player.

All in all not a bad game. I played it for a while then, for me, it became repetitive.

DW is a late cold war era. Graphics are functional, but not pretty. It has a campaign, but not a campaign engine. Lots of single missions have been made available by the DW community. The main focus of the game is a little hard to pin down as it depends on which platform you are using. If you are using the sub then there sub vs sub, sub vs surface with some recon missions available. As you may know you can also chose to operate an FFG, P3 or Helo.

The single player missions are OK, but once you successfully complete them they have limited replay value.

For me, where DW really shines is in the Multilayer side of things. It can be hard to find players, but once you do the game is a lot of fun. Multiplayer is what has kept me playing for a long time.

If you read through this forum, you should find lots of comparisons between the two game.

Have fun !

[Nexus7]

I played SH3+4 and Sub Command+DW.

The genre is TOTALLY different.

SH: I played vs AI only.
DW: I played (almost) vs human only.

SH: great focus on graphics (details, explosions), huge use of the periscope. Little use of sensors.
DW: little attention on graphics, little use of the periscope, huge use of sensors.

SH: crew management
DW: no crew management

Special features:
SH: crew management inclusive promotions and medals
DW: "multistation" - up to 4 players in the same sub (sonar;fire control;TMA;ship control).

While for SH it is vital to deliver a good visive experience, for DW it counts little (to me). The graphic detail in DW is to be found in the stations of the sub, witch allow you to gather all the knowledge you need...
Skill at sonar, TMA, fire control, evasion and general tactics makes the difference between a win and a loss.

With DW/SC i had extremely rewarding moments. With the use of the sensors, you might come up to read the mind of your opponent :o (I mean, be able to have a good guess on your opponent's next move).
In SC/DW the stress situations are not rare (lot of things to do). I would say that when "into the action" things evolve more quickly than in SH.

Finally, two totally different games.
You will find that DW is much more demanding than SH in terms of knowledge requirements. The book will help you out with the basics, but it doesn't suffice by far. I find DW to be more challenging than SH (and more rewarding).

Playing multiplay DW with autoCrew ON is something you don't want to do (except auto TMA).

Little drawback: as already mentioned, not so easy to find opponents, but there are virtual navies that help out.

[Briney]

Thanks for taking the time to be 'detailed' ! I do appreciate it.

From the looks of it, I will stick with SH4. The Kids gave it to me a while back and I didn't really get going...but I *do* need something to play at. I'm a Technician at heart, not an Operator, and now that I have every computer in sight running 4.0... I gotta do SOMETHING.

I think the clincher is the idea that DW is best, Multi-Player. I am inclined to shy away from that. I often need time to gather my thoughts about what to do, and how to do it. That became quickly apparent when all I was doing was EJECTING in that plane game!

I do have to stick with SH FOUR though, as my 'turning teen' years during WW2 make it impossible for ME to even 'play' as part of Doentz's unterzee-waffe.


'Fair winds and following seas', Mates

[SeaQueen]

It 'sounds' interesting, although the True Squids I know [that retired from the Silent Service] suggest that a game made of Attack Boat sensors, while intriguing, is not likely to be as 'entertaining' as SH4...with both undersea and surface activity.

I think the appeal of the two games is different. WWII was much more "look through the periscope, shoot the torpedo" but if you compute your own firing solutions and don't rely on the computer to do it for you, then you might get into DW.

DW is a much more slow paced game. Sensor ranges are longer and you have a greater variety of sensors, so a fair amount of the challenge of DW is finding the enemy while remaining undetected yourself. Do you go fast and increase your search rate at the expense of increasing your detection range? Do you go slow and risk missing the guy?

In DW you'll probably find yourself spending a lot more time sailing around the ocean looking at nothing. When the action starts, it'll probably be very fast, but it'll take a lot of time building up to that.

Also, a lot of DW scenarios are designed specifically to avoid the long time spent searching and locating the enemy. Frequently they're very scripted, and you have to follow the designer's solution to the problem, and not your own.

[Briney]

And thanks to you 'Queen...Ma'am {?}..... I guess what I need is some balance. Many days I have hours to 'kill'. I read a lot, but can get 'read out'. That's when I hope to have a game to play at, that is both entertaining.... AND mentally challenging {Good for the Brain}. Maybe 'I can't get there from here'.... But I've noticed that the little I have played SH4 in full realism, it isn't easy.

Keep cool back there........{I live within an hour of Boomer Heaven}

[Briney]

Say.... before I go, I'd like to know if you think it is possible to have success playing this game, without the use of that 570 page book they sell? I thought it might be fun enough to run an Attack Boat around, but I never DID have any intentions of learning the In's-and-Out's of P3's, helicopter torpedoing, or ASW Frigates.

Just a thought, left unanswered ['cuz I didn't ask it!]

[Nexus7]

If you got time, learning the stations is part of the fun, at least it was for me with Sub Command (and without any book). Piece after piece, to come to fire your first ADCAP :D

In regards of subs only, the nice addition in DW compared to SC, is the diesel Kilo.

I'd say that first, you need to like the idea to pass a good portion of time watching the waterfalls in the sonar station and seek and classify contacts, as it is your eyes in DW.

It is there that the first adrenaline flows :rock:

[Molon Labe]

Say.... before I go, I'd like to know if you think it is possible to have success playing this game, without the use of that 570 page book they sell? I thought it might be fun enough to run an Attack Boat around, but I never DID have any intentions of learning the In's-and-Out's of P3's, helicopter torpedoing, or ASW Frigates.

Just a thought, left unanswered ['cuz I didn't ask it!]

You definitley dont have to read the entire thing, especially if youre only going to use one platform. But, you should still read the appropriate sections for that platform. Youll probably be lost if you dont. (sorry about the lack of apostrophes, the browser is going weird things when I hit that key)

[goldorak]

As Molon Labe said, you have to read the manual at least the section concerning the platform you want to use (in most cases 40 pages or less) so you understand what the different buttons, screens represent.
The one thing this manual won't tell you though is HOW to play the game.
For that you will need to read some tutorials developed by members of this community and made available on different websites, subguru.com or cadc.com.

[Briney]

Wow...... Well, at least I now know what it is about! I thank you all for your input. I am sure now that this game would be beyond my ability. But you saved me some frustration.

By the way Nexus... we have relatives in Canton Glarus

Thank you all again. I will continue to read this thread, but I think I will not have anything more to say...

Briney .........

[Shearwater]

Just out of interest Briney - if you're still reading this thread : Have you checked out any other naval games yet? Granted, those are the first two that come to mind when I think of submarine games (well, replace SH4 with SH3 for me), but there are also a lot of other games out there that might catch your interest.
Also, I really think that DW isn't that complicated. Admittedly, it takes a bit more of reading and practice (for me: a lot of practice) than other games, but after all, that's why we love simulation games :) Doesn't mean I want to talk you into playing it ;) There are two demos on the Sonalysts homepage, one for the Kilo sub, and one for the Seahawk. These could give you a first impression.

[Briney]

Say, thanks for the Demo tip. I *will* look into that!

No, I have only tried SH4...[and Jane's F/A-18. THAT is tough!] As I stated, I cannot do SH3. I know a couple guys pulled out of the Bunker C... No, can't do that one.

I *did* last Winter learning and playing at Photoshop, which was 'OK'. I don't think I can progress further in that, without some educated guidance, so here I am [wink].

Interesting where some of you Wanna-be Squids are from...

Briney

[Briney]

Shearwater...... I just wanted to be polite and respond to the Demo Download suggestion. I fear I do not have 'the makings' for this game. [probably NO game...] But, between The Kids, and you kind folks, I gave it a shot.

Thanks again, and Happy Days, around...

B

[FIREWALL]

DW is a harsh mistress. The learning curve is tough.

It is a learning tool that was made into a Sim.

[SeaQueen]

Just to echo what everyone else is saying, if you're not interested in the FFG or aircraft, don't read those sections. If you have experience with previous modern submarine simulations, then you'll probably have a feel for what's going on without even reading the manual. If you don't, then it's worth reading.

Say.... before I go, I'd like to know if you think it is possible to have success playing this game, without the use of that 570 page book they sell? I thought it might be fun enough to run an Attack Boat around, but I never DID have any intentions of learning the In's-and-Out's of P3's, helicopter torpedoing, or ASW Frigates.

Just a thought, left unanswered ['cuz I didn't ask it!]

[Blacklight]

I think the clincher is the idea that DW is best, Multi-Player. I am inclined to shy away from that. I often need time to gather my thoughts about what to do, and how to do it. That became quickly apparent when all I was doing was EJECTING in that plane game!

DW is NOTHING like a plane game. You usually have quite a bit of time on your hands to evaluate situations, multiplayer or not. DW situations tend to evolve in slow motion. It's almost like a game of Chess in it's execution. I've been a part of multiplayer games where me and my buddy were stalking each other for a good five hours before one of us got the drop on the other. You can allso set up missions so that you're both on the same team. I like those type of missions the best rather than player vs player.
The mission editor adds a LOT to the replay value and there's always room for more new missions out there ! :salute:

I for one find the single missions AND the multiplayer very rewarding. Multiplayer IS where the most fun is, but there are a LOT of fun and interesting single player missions out there as well. Don't totally discount DW on that. I actually prefer DW over SH4. There's no eye candy, but it doesn't NEED any.

Silent Hunter 4 is more of an adventure game rather than a simulation. DW is a simulator in the most pure of form. Heck. Looking at what's going on outside for the eye candy is CHEATING in my book. The stations are rendered very well.

I'd say download the demo from the Sonalysts website and give it a dry run. The demo has some limitations, but it will definitely give you a tiny taste of the sim.

[SeaQueen]

It's almost like a game of Chess in it's execution.

Chess is more fast paced than DW.

[goldorak]

Chess is more fast paced than DW.


This is mostly true when playing in single player.
You are not constranined in any way to having 2-3-4 hours scenarios, so yes things can go very very slow indeed.
On the other hand multiplayer scenarios are time limited, the reason begin that DW doesn't give you the ability to stop and resume at a later date multiplayer games.
So you can't realistically design scenarios that last more than 4 hours at most and expect people to show up. Therefore in multiplayer things go "hot" very fast and the more people playing (8-10 players) the more fun such missions are.

[SeaQueen]

So you can't realistically design scenarios that last more than 4 hours at most and expect people to show up. Therefore in multiplayer things go "hot" very fast and the more people playing (8-10 players) the more fun such missions are.



That's why I don't do multiplayer. As someone who is heavily involved in thinking about ASW every day, I can say authoritatively that ASW is VERY VERY slow paced. The action only heats up after hours or even days of basically sailing around looking at nothing (searching and not finding anything until FINALLY you find what you're looking for). If it wasn't time consuming, it'd be easy.

After you find the target, things are dominated by weaponry and countermeasures not sensors, which is fun too but for that part of the scenario to unfold reasonably realistically things have to be set up right. Sometimes I think people fail to understand the essential problem in the scenario, which makes for great "free for all" exchanges of lots of torpedoes, but do you come away learning anything about naval warfare in general? I'm not sure that you do.

The only exception I can think of where things are more fast-paced is when you are a diesel electric submarine approaching a group of surface vessels traveling at high speed.

[goldorak]

That's why I don't do multiplayer. As someone who is heavily involved in thinking about ASW every day, I can say authoritatively that ASW is VERY VERY slow paced. The action only heats up after hours or even days of basically sailing around looking at nothing (searching and not finding anything until FINALLY you find what you're looking for). If it wasn't time consuming, it'd be easy.


I don't agree, you can develop complex missions with specific objectives, dynamic roe, etc... (not a free for all if thats what you were thinking of) in a 4-5 hour timeframe.


After you find the target, things are dominated by weaponry and countermeasures not sensors, which is fun too but for that part of the scenario to unfold reasonably realistically things have to be set up right. Sometimes I think people fail to understand the essential problem in the scenario, which makes for great "free for all" exchanges of lots of torpedoes, but do you come away learning anything about naval warfare in general? I'm not sure that you do.


Its not about playing in a free for all scenario. Its about designing complex missions, that let you search track, identify enemy subs (and doing some other things also like land attacks if it is warrented by the rules of engagement) and comply with mission objectives.
Not necessarily a free for all type of game.
Just because you make a living out of ASW, doesn't mean everyone has to look at DW like a professional training tool. It is not that, at least the version sold in game shops. With your kind of professional deformation, just about any kind of computer simulation would be ridiculed by any real life expert (be it an ASW expert, a combat fighter pilot, etc...) just because it would never "capture" the real deal.


The only exception I can think of where things are more fast-paced is when you are a diesel electric submarine approaching a group of surface vessels traveling at high speed.

No, you can make much more elaborate scenarios than just stalking enemy subs, or attacking enemy convoys.
But for this you have to use more elaborate mods than just lwami.

:shucks: