End of the war - Questions for moders and history experts

[meduza]

How can I change the date when the war ends in the game? This is set to May 8th, AFAIK. I looked at the .cfg files but couldn't find it...

According to some sources, Doenitz issue an order to cease hostilities on May 4th, and according to some others, on May 5th. Some time later he sent his famous "My U-Boat men..." message.
Anyone knows the exact date and (at least approximate) time of these messages?

[Nictalope]

I s'ppose i could say date and am sure many could too.
Didn't you bother to check?,
there's a thing called google, yes.... :har:

[meduza]

I s'ppose i could say date and am sure many could too.
Didn't you bother to check?,
there's a thing called google, yes.... :har:
Yes, I did bother to check. Please read my first post.

[mookiemookie]

According to uboat.net, there were 3 attacks on Allied ships carried out on May 7, 1945, the last of the war.

[Nictalope]

ok, ok

On 4th may, 1945 (also, as an example and among many others, Heinz Trompelt, a Torpedo Obermech. Maat and Fähnrich zur See in U-459 and U-172 gives this date)

"Meine U-Boot-Männer !

Sechs Jahre U-boot-Krieg liegen hinter uns. Ihr habt gekämpft wie die Löwen.
Eine erdrückende Materialübermacht hat uns auf engstem Raum zusammenge-
drängt. Von der verbleibenden Basis aus ist eine Fortsetzung unseres Kampfes nicht mehr möglich.
U-Boot-Männer! Ungebrochen und makellos legt ihr nach einem Heldenkampf
ohnegleichen die Waffen nieder. Wir gedenken in Ehrfurcht unserer gefallenen
Kameraden, die ihre Treue zu Führer und Vaterland mit dem Tode besiegelten.
Kameraden! Bewahrt Euren U-Boot-Geist, mit dem ihr lange Jahre tapfer und
unbeirrt gekämpft habt, auch in Zukunft zum Besten unseres Vaterlandes.

Euer Großadmiral\"



On 9th may 1945 (it would sustain still the attacks on 7th may carried on at 21.45 hours by U-1023, sinking the norwegian minesweeper HNoMS NYMS-382 ; and later on, at 23.03 and 23.06 hours when U-2336 attacked the convoy EN-591 (http://uboat.net/ops/convoys/convoys.php?convoy=EN-591) near May Island in the Firth of Forth and sank two ships, the Avondale Park (http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship.html?shipID=3512) (2878 tn) and Sneland I (1791 tn.), this one reported as the last U-boat attack during WWII)

U-Boot-Männer, nach einem heroischen Kampf ohnegleichen habt ihr die Waffen
niedergelegt. Das höchste Opfer müßt ihr jetzt eurem Vaterland bringen, indem
ihr bedingungslos folgende Weisungen durcbführt. Zahlreiche Opfer werden da-
durch in der Heimat vermieden. Der mit FT 341/314/316/319 auf Küste erteilte
Befehl zum Rückmarsch nach Norwegen ist aufgehoben.

Euer Großadmiral

(These from U-boat.net)
:salute:

[meduza]

Thanks, that was helpfull. :up: Still, I don't have the exact times, but I'll improvise.

Now, if someone can give me the answer to the first, and more important question: How to change the date when the game ends (with "The war ended message")?

[Nictalope]

uh, well, perhaps this extract from the Cryptologic Documents in the Navy Department Library, Special Research histories, Battle of the Atlantic, Vol. II [U-Boat Operations--December 1942 to May 1945 including German U-boats and raiders in the Indian and Pacific Oceans], Nr SRH-008 (415 pages)...

"Friedebur technically assumed command of U-boats in 1305/2 May, and on the 3rd and 4th of May repeated that the U-boat war was being continued; but COMSUBs West again took over the U-boat command in 0447/4 May. First fruits of the negotiations appeared in 1118/4C May: "COMINCR forbids destruction of German merchant ships when enemy action threatens, except in case of action by Bolshevik forces." Then in 1614/4 May, Dönitz himself, in a special message, ordered all U-boats to cease all war-like activity and secretly begin return to Norway.


(1614/4 was not read until 16 May; hence the first actual proof that Dönitz had issued orders to U-boats to cease hostilities and return was in a fragmentary plain text message intercepted at 1745Z on 5 May which referred to 1614/4. At ---1/5 May all U-boats were ordered to cease operations against England and America immediately. (Read on 7 May)


A few hours later, a prod: "No one is more under oath to him (Dönitz) than the Navy . . ." (2311/4C) A "flash" message at 0134/5 declared the situation had changed, all U-boats in German and Danish ports and bays were to scuttle. Only eight minutes later, under Keitel's signature, all were informed that the surrender of North Germany to Montgomery would go into effect at 0800B: "No scuttling or demolition to be performed." (0142/5) At 2158/5 May Dönitz to all U-boat men: "Six years of U-boat warfare lie behind us. You have fought like lions. An overwhelming superiority in material has forced us into a very narrow space. From this small basis a continuation of our battle is no longer possible . . . U-boat men, unbroken unashamed, you are laying down your arms . . . Keep your U-boat spirit, with which you have fought bravely . . . Long live Germany."
In view of the professed German motive of surrendering to the Anglo-Americans in order to save something from the Russians, it must have been hard to send out the message on ciphers at 1204/8: "Triton and Niobe cipher data are being

handed over to the Anglo-Americans and Russians. . . "Plain language orders followed, canceling the return to Norway, giving orders to surrender according to Allied instructions. (2026/8 and 2034/8).

Note that U-881, Frischke, has not been accounted for as of 25 May 1945. It was later learned that U-881 was sunk on 6 May 1945 by the USS Farquhar off Newfoundland.


Hope is useful :salute:

Cheers

[meduza]

Then in 1614/4 May, Dönitz himself, in a special message, ordered all U-boats to cease all war-like activity and secretly begin return to Norway.
At 2158/5 May Dönitz to all U-boat men: "Six years of U-boat warfare lie behind us.
That's what I've been looking for!! Thanks! :yeah: But all I could find was some vague info. Best I could come up with was "the early morning hours" for the first message, and no info about the second...


Now, the first question still remains unanswered. :D

[Nictalope]

welcome,
btw i take you read the note on 1614/4 may

(1614/4 was not read until 16 May; hence the first actual proof that Dönitz had issued orders to U-boats to cease hostilities and return was in a fragmentary plain text message intercepted at 1745Z on 5 May which referred to 1614/4. At ---1/5 May all U-boats were ordered to cease operations against England and America immediately. (Read on 7 May)

A detail, but worth enough to consider a thought o two, specially the ---1/5.

Cheers

[meduza]

welcome,
btw i take you read the note on 1614/4 may

(1614/4 was not read until 16 May; hence the first actual proof that Dönitz had issued orders to U-boats to cease hostilities and return was in a fragmentary plain text message intercepted at 1745Z on 5 May which referred to 1614/4. At ---1/5 May all U-boats were ordered to cease operations against England and America immediately. (Read on 7 May)

A detail, but worth enough to consider a thought o two, specially the ---1/5.

Cheers
It certainly adds to a confusion. :D

I found some other source stating that the order was given on May 4th, and became effective at 0800 May 5th, and that supports the 1614/4. Although another source mentions morning of May 4th. :damn:

[Nictalope]

well, i guess always is healthy to mention which sources are those, from where came from, as some are sources of sources :O:, to say, they just repeat or mention something taken without check the info too deep, and some other sources are first-hand or almost.
I guess one have to measure and weight the quality of the source and give accordingly more or less credit to it, of course many source are better than just one.
maybe the "morning" meant that time of the day for a certain u-boat at sea, to say, it was earlier than in continental germany , @ time the order was issued ?.

Anyhow, you're closer now, hehe :yep:

Cheers

[meduza]

well, i guess always is healthy to mention which sources are those, from where came from, as some are sources of sources :O:, to say, they just repeat or mention something taken without check the info too deep, and some other sources are first-hand or almost.
uboat.net (http://uboat.net/fates/at-sea.htm)

Anyway, I decided to accept the 1614/4 and 2158/5.
Of course, this will all make sense if I find out how to change the end of game date. If not, I'll have to stick with current date, and adjust the messages dates accordingly.

Thanks again for your help!

[Nictalope]

My own opinion is the 8 may-end of the war date @ (GWX modded?) shIII
is quite accurate, as the attacks and sinkings on 7 may would lead us to the second message issued 9 may, which I put in first :

U-Boot-Männer, nach einem heroischen Kampf ohnegleichen habt ihr die Waffen
niedergelegt. Das höchste Opfer müßt ihr jetzt eurem Vaterland bringen, indem
ihr bedingungslos folgende Weisungen durcbführt. Zahlreiche Opfer werden da-
durch in der Heimat vermieden. Der mit FT 341/314/316/319 auf Küste erteilte
Befehl zum Rückmarsch nach Norwegen ist aufgehoben.


Of course i forgot to mention (my baaad) that order heading, which was:


\"9.Mai 1945, 0140-2026/8/k2 0 An alle Boote.


I think this clears things a bit :yep: (or not :nope: )

Cheers

[meduza]

On 8th May, 1 minute after minute, the ceasefire signed a day earlier was taken into effect.
The German troops started to surrender a few days earlier. For example, American troops stoped fighting the Germans on May 6th.

I believe Doenitz issued the first order for surrender on May 4th (this is the first message I talk about):
ALL U-BOATS. ATTENTION ALL U-BOATS. CEASE-FIRE AT ONCE. STOP ALL HOSTILE ACTION AGAINST ALLIED SHIPPING. DOENITZ.

Several boats were sunk after this. Some of them probably didn't receive the message for a few days, because they were submerged, or had a faulty equipment or whatever. For example, when interrogated, the commander of U-530 stated that he received a ceasefire order on May 8th, and subsequently changed the date to May 10th.