The proposed health care bill thread (merged) [Archive] - Page 2

Onkel Neal

08-04-09, 06:52 PM

How the heck do you guys think that certain people shouldn't be allowed to get care when they need it? To simply give health care to people who are wealthy is wrong... people who are poor and unable to buy insurance are just as deserving of care when they're sick or injured as anyone else weather it be joe blogs or the president himself. Your all people, but you think that some people aren't worth the effort from what I read here.

First of all, please be more precise in stating your case:
"To simply give health care to people who are wealthy is wrong.."
No one is giving health care to the wealthy. Health care is purchased. And not just by the wealthy. A lot of middle class working people buy their insurance, and part of their compensation package is insurance. I purchase health care insurance, and it costs me about 15% of my monthly salary. No one is giving it to me. Why the hell should I have to pay more in taxes to give it to someone else? :timeout:

People who are poor and unable to buy insurance? They can afford a lot of other luxuries, though. Joe Blogs might afford insurance if he stopped buying scratch off lottery tickets, beer, cigarettes, cell phone time, cable TV and Internet access, cars and motorycles, computer games, and about 5000 other things he thinks he cannot live without. Not to mention stopped popping out kids like he's the son of Adam.

Nothing is free. Someone has to pay for anything of value. This all boils down to someone wants something and they want someone else to pay for it. Fine, let's pass a Poor Person Insurance package. Tax me for it. But in return, I want poor people to mow my grass. And they need to be organ donors and give blood every 8 weeks. And I better not see them ahead of me in line at the steak restaurant. :arrgh!:

August

08-04-09, 07:02 PM

Really? I'm sure that will come as news to the woman in this story who was denied the cancer treatment recommended by her doctor. Blue Shield stepped in between the doctor and patient and said NO.

http://cbs5.com/local/cancer.treatment.denied.2.1007394.html

And could you honestly guarantee that a government health care plan wouldn't also say NO?

Morts

08-04-09, 07:07 PM

People who are poor and unable to buy insurance? They can afford a lot of other luxuries, though. Joe Blogs might afford insurance if he stopped buying scratch off lottery tickets, beer, cigarettes, cell phone time, cable TV and Internet access, cars and motorycles, computer games, and about 5000 other things he thinks he cannot live without. Not to mention stopped popping out kids like he's the son of Adam.

yeah, cause every poor person does that:damn:

Onkel Neal

08-04-09, 07:14 PM

No, not every poor person. But would you care to guess a percentage? :DL

AVGWarhawk

08-04-09, 07:33 PM

No, not every poor person. But would you care to guess a percentage? :DL

Oh, say 80%:hmmm:

Morts

08-04-09, 07:53 PM

No, not every poor person. But would you care to guess a percentage? :DL
im guessing its quite high, but its still somehow unfair that person has to die (worst case scenario) just because they cant afford healthcare. lets take my family forexample, we're not the richest people on earth and if we didnt have the healthcare system that we do in denmark, meaning everyone is entiteled to it, we probably couldnt afford it

mookiemookie

08-04-09, 08:03 PM

Oh, say 80%:hmmm:

People who are poor and unable to buy insurance? They can afford a lot of other luxuries, though. Joe Blogs might afford insurance if he stopped buying scratch off lottery tickets, beer, cigarettes, cell phone time, cable TV and Internet access, cars and motorycles, computer games, and about 5000 other things he thinks he cannot live without. Not to mention stopped popping out kids like he's the son of Adam.

So let's say your family makes $40,000 a year total and you don't have health insurance. You think if you really buckled down got rid of cable TV, etc etc, you could come up with the $12,000 a year needed to purchase health care?

About 9.1 million of the uninsured have household incomes (http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf) greater than $75,000, and 10 percent (about 4.7 million) make more (http://kff.org/uninsured/upload/7451-04.pdf) than 400 percent of the federal poverty threshold, according to KFF. In 2007 (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/threshld/thresh07.html), the most recent year of Census statistics, a family of four at 400 percent of the poverty level would have a household income of $84,812 or more.

So it's true that many of the uninsured could, in theory, spare the $3,354 average annual employee contribution (http://www.kff.org/newsroom/ehbs092408.cfm) for employer-sponsored family coverage, or even the $5,799 average premium (http://www.ahipresearch.org/pdfs/Individual_Market_Survey_December_2007.pdf) for individually purchased family coverage. But it's also true that 66 percent of the uninsured make less than 200 percent of the poverty level according to KFF, which is less than $42,406 for a family of four in 2007. And a family's premium costs may actually be much higher than the average for individually purchased insurance, depending on the number of dependents, the ages of family members, their state of health and the state in which they live. For instance, the average annual premium for individually purchased family coverage in Massachusetts, according to America's Health Insurance Plans' Center for Policy and Research, was $16,897 in 2006-2007 (before the state changed its insurance plan), and in New York it was $12,254.

Furthermore, even those who can afford coverage cannot always get it. AHIP found (http://www.ahipresearch.org/pdfs/Individual_Market_Survey_December_2007.pdf) that 72 percent of 2006 applications for health insurance were eventually approved, while the rest were withdrawn, not processed, or denied for medical or non-medical reasons. And of those who got coverage, 11 percent had to pay a higher rate than requested.

http://www.factcheck.org/politics/th...uninsured.html (http://www.factcheck.org/politics/the_real_uninsured.html)

AVGWarhawk

08-04-09, 08:10 PM

So let's say you make $40,000 a year and don't have health insurance. You think if you really buckled down got rid of cable TV, etc etc, you could come up with the $12,000 a year needed to purchase individual health care?

Again and in my view, the only person who is at fault for no health insurance is the individual. Again, do not take a job that does not provide health insurance as part of the benefit package. If you do take that job, then that is your choice and not my problem. Why should I pay for someone poor choice in employment? Please do not say some do not have the means to get jobs with benefits. McDonalds offers health benefits.

mookiemookie

08-04-09, 08:38 PM

Again and in my view, the only person who is at fault for no health insurance is the individual. Again, do not take a job that does not provide health insurance as part of the benefit package. If you do take that job, then that is your choice and not my problem. Why should I pay for someone poor choice in employment? Please do not say some do not have the means to get jobs with benefits. McDonalds offers health benefits.

If it's so easy to find a job that offers health insurance, why hasn't everyone already done so? Do you think people enjoy being uninsured?

And then let's say you're poor and you get a job at McDonalds and now you have health care. What happens when you get cancer, you exhaust your lifetime cap and they drop you and you're bankrupted by having to pay for your treatment?

Platapus

08-04-09, 09:28 PM

I just know it will be a pain in the ass!

You won't feel much due to the goofy drugs they will give you.

A colonoscopy is much better than a Sigmoidoscopy in my opinion, having experienced both.

Onkel Neal

08-04-09, 10:43 PM

So let's say your family makes $40,000 a year total and you don't have health insurance. You think if you really buckled down got rid of cable TV, etc etc, you could come up with the $12,000 a year needed to purchase health care?

What choice do I have? I need to have health care, it gets purchased.

$5,799 average premium (http://www.ahipresearch.org/pdfs/Individual_Market_Survey_December_2007.pdf) for individually purchased family coverage.

That's half of $12,000, btw. No one is forcing me to live in New York and pay $12,000. Edit: Where the heck does factcheck get that average? It appears a lot higher from other sources. (http://www.ppinys.org/reports/jtf/healthinsurance.html)

Besides, if I don't pay for it, who does?

One other thing to note; insurance is artificially high because it covers costs that are bloated from treating uninsured. If the "poor" bought some form of insurance, it would go a long way towards lowering the cost for the rest of us.

Onkel Neal

08-04-09, 11:03 PM

im guessing its quite high, but its still somehow unfair that person has to die (worst case scenario) just because they cant afford healthcare. lets take my family forexample, we're not the richest people on earth and if we didnt have the healthcare system that we do in denmark, meaning everyone is entiteled to it, we probably couldnt afford it

Well, on second thought, I should change my definition of "poor" people, too. A lot of uninsured people are not poor, they just choose to focus their spending on non-essentials. A truly poor person does not have a car, cell phone, or jet ski.

August

08-04-09, 11:13 PM

Besides, if I don't pay for it, who does?

That's the point. I work, I have paid health care insurance but another heart attack like the one i had two years ago could wipe me out financially. You say make the poor buy some form of health care insurance but that's not going to help me if and when i have to crap out another 70 grand for a 20 minute procedure and a three day hospital stay.

Sea Demon

08-05-09, 12:17 AM

Well, on second thought, I should change my definition of "poor" people, too. A lot of uninsured people are not poor, they just choose to focus their spending on non-essentials. A truly poor person does not have a car, cell phone, or jet ski.

Excellent point. I guess it truly is a matter of priorities. If health care is so important to these people crying about it, they better not have any luxuries such as large screen TV's, cell phones, XBox 360's, Satellite TV plans, an automobile through financing, credit cards, etc. before purchasing a health plan. Otherwise, I don't want to hear the sob stories.
@ August. Well, doesn't that situation above scream for more market place competition, and fixing alot of the things creating the 70 grand/ 20 minute procedure? I'm not sure what you're driving at.

Tchocky

08-05-09, 12:56 AM

That's the point. I work, I have paid health care insurance but another heart attack like the one i had two years ago could wipe me out financially.

That's insane.

Healthcare isn't a perfectly competitive good. You don't buy it like bread. The standard more-competition-equals-better-results doesn't pan out here. Most economic theory points away from competitive healthcare. The US has the most competitive private healthcare market of any industrialised nation, and it's not the best or the cheapest one.

I have to love the attitude in this thread that all poor people have these lovely luxuries. It makes no sense.

*stand by for anecdotal evidence of XboXes*

PeriscopeDepth

08-05-09, 01:00 AM

That's insane.
http://pnhp.org/PDF_files/MedicalBankruptcy.pdf

PD

Sea Demon

08-05-09, 01:31 AM

That's insane.

Healthcare isn't a perfectly competitive good. You don't buy it like bread. The standard more-competition-equals-better-results doesn't pan out here. Most economic theory points away from competitive healthcare. The US has the most competitive private healthcare market of any industrialised nation, and it's not the best or the cheapest one.

Well, that's the way it pans out here. The fact is, my own personal health plan that I pay for is widely accepted, and I have excellent choices in doctors and hospitals throughout the region. Unlike the government run Medicare and Medicaid, I do actually get better health care, and much much better results.

And the USA is not the cheapest indeed, but I have yet to see any evidence of Americans leaving in droves to your nation or any others with single payer for treatment. I have seen alot of evidence to the reverse though.

I have to love the attitude in this thread that all poor people have these lovely luxuries. It makes no sense.

*stand by for anecdotal evidence of XboXes*

Well, my point is that if healthcare is so darn important, than it should absolutely come before anything else. And you're kidding yourself if you think that there are not people who choose to opt out of paying for themselves, whine about it, yet have cell phones and such.

Ultimately, the attitude I find most hilarious about this is the insecurity of people from countries with "Universal" health care, who are frantically desperate to convince us Americans to adopt the same. I as an American am very happy with what I got, and I don't care what health care system you have in your country. And as I see our health care as being better than what you have, I still wouldn't try to convice you to adopt our system. That's your business. It's almost like you people have to validate your system because it's really not that great at all.

TDK1044

08-05-09, 05:28 AM

I think we'll end up with a two layered system where people like me will still pay for private healthcare insurance, while also paying for healthcare for people who will look to the Government to do everything for them.

The only difference for honest, hard working Americans will be that the Hospital they go to for a surgical procedure will be in the Bahamas or Grand Cayman where all the good Doctors will have gone to work.

In our own hospitals, you'll see rationed chaos.

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 07:51 AM

I agree with Sea Demon and TDK on both of their last posts. Under my current plan I can see what doctor I please. I need no referals. I have the very best in healthcare that is provided by my employer. I have stated in this thread numerous times, I do not accept employment with a company that does not have healthcare as part of the benefit package. If someone does, that is their bag, not mine. I should not have to pay into this program if I have my own. Period. Many say that I'm already paying for the uninsured through my premiums. That is true, so, if this program goes through, I should see a reduction on my premiums since uncle sam is now picking up the tab. I wish to continue to keep my choice of doctors. I wish not to have to wait on a referal. I wish not to have to finance healthcare for someone elses poor choices in lifestyle concerning lack of exercise, eating right or bungy jumping every weekend with a subpar rubber band. It just does not seem right that I'm forced to pay for others poor decisions.

mookiemookie

08-05-09, 08:06 AM

It just does not seem right that I'm forced to pay for others poor decisions.

So are you going to drop your current coverage? Because that's exactly what the concept of insurance is.

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 08:18 AM

So are you going to drop your current coverage? Because that's exactly what the concept of insurance is.

Ok Mookie, I have CareFirst with a paid health credit card for a family of 4 that my employer fills every year with $2300.00. I get taxed on it as income and that is fine. I have a $20.00 copay that I use this card for as well as perscriptions or any procedure that is not covered 100%. I can use it for glasses, dental or any health related issues. You tell me Mookie, would you drop this type of insurance and take on a hope for the best government plan? Will the government load a credit card with $2300.00 for perscriptions, copay or any other health related issues? Doubt it. So, the answer is no I will not drop my current and my employer said he would not drop it. However, he and I do not believe we should have to pay into yet another system for others.

August

08-05-09, 08:38 AM

Will the government load a credit card with $2300.00 for perscriptions, copay or any other health related issues?

Theoretically a universal government plan wouldn't have any limits.

Besides $2300 a year for a family of four ain't all that much even just for prescriptions, but especially when you add all that other stuff too.

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 08:53 AM

Theoretically a universal government plan wouldn't have any limits.

Besides $2300 a year for a family of four ain't all that much even just for prescriptions, but especially when you add all that other stuff too.

'Theoretically' is all the government program has right now. Yes, there will be limits and you can hang your hat on that.

$2300.00 is better than nothing. Furthermore, last year I spent about $200.00 on that card. This year I have spent about $1300.00 on the card. That includes glasses for three people and my daughters usual health check ups and vaccinations. My wifes yearly gyno visit. So, really, barring anything major I do not see any more of the money spent this year. Again, better $2300.00 than empty pockets. You be the judge.

TDK1044

08-05-09, 09:20 AM

Again, better $2300.00 than empty pockets. You be the judge.

He doesn't want to be the judge, AVG. He wants the Government to supply him with all his healthcare needs and he wants you and I to pay for it.

This is what Obama calls 'redistribution of wealth', and what his hero refers to more honestly as:

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

Tchocky

08-05-09, 09:22 AM

@ TDK - Do you really believe that Karl Marx is Obama's hero?

TDK1044

08-05-09, 09:33 AM

@ TDK - Do you really believe that Karl Marx is Obama's hero?

Absolutely. He admits a keen interest in Marxism at College, and he constantly refers to a fair process of redistribution of wealth. His book 'Dreams From My Father' would seem to reiterate his beliefs.

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 09:35 AM

He doesn't want to be the judge, AVG. He wants the Government to supply him with all his healthcare needs and he wants you and I to pay for it.

This is what Obama calls 'redistribution of wealth', and what his hero refers to more honestly as:

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs

Oh, I fully understand his position TDK :)

mookiemookie

08-05-09, 10:14 AM

He doesn't want to be the judge, AVG. He wants the Government to supply him with all his healthcare needs and he wants you and I to pay for it.

I'm actually more interested in putting the slimy insurance companies out of business whose business model is built on people dying. I pay my taxes and insurance premiums just as I'm sure you and everyone else here does. No need to get personal.

TDK1044

08-05-09, 10:57 AM

Here you have an Administration that has been in power for less than a year, and already they have achieved ownership in a significant percentage of the Auto industry and the Banking industry, and now they are trying to nationalize the health industry.

Ask yourself this question. Why is a bright young medical student going to spend 4 years in medical school and build up a boat load of debt in order to end up working for the Federal Government? The good ones won't.

Are the insurance companies angels in this equation? Hell no. Neither are the pharmaceutical companies who are as guilty of robbery as anyone holding up a convenience store. There are plenty of pieces of this puzzle that need totally re-thinking, but nationalized health care is not the answer.

You don't need to put the insurance companies out of business, Mookie, you need to create an environment where they act responsibly as insurance companies and not companies offering medical payment plans for anything and everything medical related.

If there are effective checks and balances in place regarding medical malpractice lawsuits, the cost of perscription medication, the amount that a hospital can bill an insurance company and so on, then the system will work the way that it's meant to.

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 11:09 AM

Are the insurance companies angels in this equation? Hell no. Neither are the pharmaceutical companies who are as guilty of robbery as anyone holding up a convenience store. There are plenty of pieces of this puzzle that need totally re-thinking, but nationalized health care is not the answer.

How true is this statement? As true as it gets! The cart is being put before the horse under Obama's idea. All Obama has done is throw money at the problems. He wants to do it again with healthcare. That is not smart. He is throwing good money after bad. I agree TDK...the current system needs an overhauled...then looking at universal healthcare should be done. This attempt is so totally haphazard it is baffling. In fact, all that has passed into legislation in the past 6 months has been baffling. No one is taking a good look at anything. Just throw money at the problem and hope it goes away.

August

08-05-09, 11:19 AM

Obama is my hero? This is your big plan AVG and TDK? Alienate a lifelong republican voter just because he doesn't brainlessly join the anti democrat mob on every issue?

Just remember one thing the both of you. I have been employed and paying taxes and buying health care insurance since the 1980's and i'll still be paying if a national health care system is instituted, so neither of you two bozos will be paying for me any time soon.

As a matter of fact since you're so concerned about paying your own way and nobody elses then how about you pay back the government for all the tax money your kids use up to go to public school, because I don't have kids and i'm tired of supporting yours.

What was that you said? "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

Sounds to me like you need me a heckuva lot more than I need you.

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 11:34 AM

As a matter of fact since you're so concerned about paying your own way and nobody elses then how about you pay back the government for all the tax money your kids use up to go to public school, because I don't have kids and i'm tired of supporting yours.

You do not live in my state therefore your tax dollars did not pay for my kids school. BTW, I send my kids to private school. :O:

As far as paying other peoples way...been doing it for years. I do not need yet another program to pay into for others.

Obama is my hero?

I never said that:hmmm:

This is your big plan AVG and TDK? Alienate a lifelong republican voter just because he doesn't brainlessly join the anti democrat mob on every issue?

What plan? My plan is to not have to pay into yet another program when I'm already paying into a program of my choice. I call it freedom to choose.

Just remember one thing the both of you. I have been employed and paying taxes and buying health care insurance since the 1980's and i'll still be paying if a national health care system is instituted, so neither of you two bozos will be paying for me any time soon.

I too have been paying since the mid 80's. BFD! Get a grip. Bozo is a clown. Personally I see my self as Goofy:03:

CastleBravo

08-05-09, 12:09 PM

When liberals question the government (President, Congress, et. al.) they are called patriots, when conservatives do the same thing they are called a mob.:nope:

Sailor Steve

08-05-09, 12:13 PM

When liberals question the government (President, Congress, et. al.) they are called patriots, when conservatives do the same thing they are called a mob.:nope:
The reverse is also true. The same conservatives who ran the "I love my country, but I don't trust the government" bumper stickers in the '90s are also the ones who said "If you question the Patriot Act, you're UnAmerican!"

TDK1044

08-05-09, 12:24 PM

Obama is my hero? This is your big plan AVG and TDK? Alienate a lifelong republican voter just because he doesn't brainlessly join the anti democrat mob on every issue?

A lot of the anger being generated towards Democratic Congressmen and women right now is coming from moderate Democrats who sense a growing feeling of discontent regarding this issue from their constituents.

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 12:26 PM

Healthcare bill will allow abortions:

Health care legislation before Congress (http://topics.breitbart.com/Congress/) would allow a new government-sponsored insurance plan to cover abortions, a decision that would affect millions of women and recast federal policy on the divisive issue.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99SLQBG0&show_article=1

This will go over like a draft card at a hippie love in. :doh:

Aramike

08-05-09, 12:30 PM

I've said time and time again that I'm in favor of a form of universal health coverage, but not Obama's plan. But, I think August is right - some of you guys are looking at this from the wrong perspective. If you wish to bury the plan on the basis of the taxpayer, and that's your main argument, then maybe I should re-examine it because it can't be that bad.

No, there are other problems with the plan that are far larger than the hit taxpayers will take. In fact, anyone who understands Economics 101 understands that such a hit will become so engrained in our society that the economy will simply move around it. This happens to all large taxes.

Just think about it - if the government eliminated ALL taxes today, how do you think the economy will react to the influx of consumer dollars? You guessed it - prices go UP. In the end, everyone has more money, but buying power stays the same.

It's the small taxes that kill. Especially localized ones. But all of that is beside the point.

AramikeCare

Personally, I'd favor a health plan that mandates that all people of certain incomes or higher purchase health insurance. This could be done as a payroll deduction. I would then mandate that insurance companies be required to insure EVERYONE, regardless of existing conditions. Furthmore, I would mandate standardized rates based upon behaviors, and NOT health conditions (in other words, the smokers will pay a little more, etc). People that can't afford insurance can receive government plans, similar to the ones already available to the poor in most states. Plans would have strict limits on co-pays and deductables.

Finally, the government would subsidize catastrophic care for EVERYONE.

Believe it or not, such a universal plan would bring down costs dramatically, as the era of unpaid medical bills would quickly end. Plus, in my plan everyone would be covered but retain control of their coverage.

CastleBravo

08-05-09, 12:36 PM

Healthcare bill will allow abortions:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99SLQBG0&show_article=1

This will go over like a draft card at a hippie love in. :doh:

There is alot of bad in HR3200........

Pg 22 MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 30 Sec 123 – THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get.
Pg 29 Lines 4-16 – YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!! You can only get so much “care” per year.
Pg 42 – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. You have no choice!
PG 50 Section 152 – HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.
Pg 58 – Govt will have real-time access to individuals finances & a National ID Healthcard will be issued!
Pg 59 Lines 21-24 – Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for elective funds transfer.
PG 65 Sec 164 – Payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 – Govt is creating an HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Govt control.
PG 84 Sec 203 – Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs for private HC plans in the Exchange.
PG 85 Line 7 – Specs for Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration your Healthcare!
PG 91 Lines 4-7 – Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example – Translation for illegal aliens.
Pg 95 Lines 8-18 – The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individually for Govt HC plan.
PG 85 Line 7 – Specs of Benefit Levels for Plans. #AARP members – your Health care WILL be rationed.
PG 102 Lines 12-18 – Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will be automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.
Pg 124 Lines 24-25 – No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No “judicial review” against Govt Monopoly.
Pg 127 Lines 1-16 – Doctors/AMA – The Govt will tell YOU what you can make.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 – An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public opt plan. NO CHOICE.
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 – Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.
Pg 149 Lines 16-24 – ANY Emplyer with payroll of 400k & above who does not provide public option pays 8% tax on all payroll.
Pg 150 Lines 9-13 – Businesses with payroll between 251k & 400k who doesn’t provide public option pays 2-6% tax on all payroll.
Pg 167 Lines 18-23 – ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC accrding to Govt will be taxed 2.5%.
Pg 170 Lines 1-3 – Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (You and I will pay for them.)
Pg 195 – Officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access to ALL Americans’ financial/personal records.
PG 203 Line 14-15 – “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax” Yes, it says that.
Pg 239 Line 14-24 – Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor will be very affected.
Pg 241 Line 6-8 – Doctors, doesn’t matter what specialty you have, you’ll all be paid the same.
PG 253 Line 10-18 – Govt sets value of Doctor’s time, professional judgments, etc. Literally value of humans.
PG 265 Sec 1131 – Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.
PG 268 Sec 1141 – Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
PG 272 Sec 1145 – TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS – Cancer patients. Welcome to rationing!
Page 280 Sec 1151 – The Govt will penalize hospitals for what Govt deems preventable readmissions.
Pg 317 Lines 13-20 – PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Doctors what/how much they can own.
Pg 317-318 Lines 21-25,1-3 – PROHIBITION on expansion – Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand.
pg 321 Lines 2-13 – Hospitals have option to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can you say ACORN?!!
Pg335 Lines 16-25 Pg 336-339 – Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing.
Pg 341 Lines 3-9 – Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing all into Govt HC plan.
Pg 354 Sec 1177 – Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs.
Pg 379 Sec 1191 – Govt creates more bureaucracy – Telehealth Advisory Committee. Can you say HC by phone?
PG 425 Lines 4-12 – Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life. Seniors will be interviewed every year for health issues and decisions made as to what care they can or can’t receive
Pg 425 Lines 17-19 – Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!
PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 – Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.
PG 427 Lines 15-24 – Govt mandates program for orders for end of life. The Govt has a say in how your life ends.
Pg 428, 429 Lines 17-25, 1-9 – An “advanced care planning consult” will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.
PG 429 Lines 10-12 – “Advanced care planning consultation” may include an ORDER for end of life plans. An ORDER from the government.
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 – The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
PG 430 Lines 11-15 – The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.
Pg 469 – Community Based Home Medical Services = Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Services here!!?
Page 472 Lines 14-17 – PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment to a community-based org. Like ACORN?
PG 489 – Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt into your marriage.
Pg 494-498 – Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services.

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 12:40 PM

Tchocky

08-05-09, 12:48 PM

I should have my choice of coverage but eventually private insurance will crumble under this. You can not compete with the government.
Private insurance is alive and well in many countries with government-provided healthcare (NB - NOT what is being proposed for the US). It's just that most people don't buy it because there's a better, more cost-effective option
If the government provides a better insurance package then why not go for it?
If private insurance can't compete with that specific plan, then so what? It's not like they're the most loved institution out there.

Anyway, the government is already knee-deep into healthcare, as a regulator. That employer-provided healthcare is so popular is mainly because it's tax deductible.

SteamWake

08-05-09, 12:54 PM

If the government provides a better insurance package then why not go for it?
If private insurance can't compete with that specific plan, then so what? It's not like they're the most loved institution out there..

You know that would be fine... great even. If we had an option.

The way the bill is written right now you WILL lose your private health care regardles of what the politico's are spewing. The bill is intentionally written to cause just this.

So no options.

Obama wants a single payer health plan

http://www.breitbart.tv/obama-in-03-id-like-to-see-a-single-payer-health-care-plan/

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 12:56 PM

Private insurance is alive and well in many countries with government-provided healthcare (NB - NOT what is being proposed for the US). It's just that most people don't buy it because there's a better, more cost-effective option
If the government provides a better insurance package then why not go for it?
If private insurance can't compete with that specific plan, then so what? It's not like they're the most loved institution out there.

Anyway, the government is already knee-deep into healthcare, as a regulator. That employer-provided healthcare is so popular is mainly because it's tax deductible.

It ain't that easy Tchocky. The entire system needs to be overhauled. There are reasons everything cost so much. Find out those reasons and eliminate them. Lawsuit happy Americans can thank themselves for driving up costs. Really, to sit here and look all innocent when in fact it is our own doing that got us here. As per usual, everyone acts dumb about it.

One reason private insurance is so expensive is because we live in a law suit happy society. Unnecessary procedures are done all the time in the name of defensive medicine. In his book, Harvard University professor Michael E. Porter's "The Competitive Advantage of Nations," he points out that one of the reasons the U.S. has such higher health care costs is because doctors can and are sued at the drop of a hat.

Overhaul this issue above in quotes and then see if private health insurance is affordable by all. Just do not throw money at a problem and hope it corrects itself. Keep the government out of it until the have a real plan of action. Not just a response.

Tchocky

08-05-09, 12:57 PM

The way the bill is written right now you WILL lose your private health care regardles of what the politico's are spewing. The bill is intentionally written to cause just this.

Can you point out the relevant section of the bill?

As in, "the way it is written"

CastleBravo

08-05-09, 01:02 PM

Can you point out the relevant section of the bill?

As in, "the way it is written"

Pg 145 Line 15-17 – An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public opt plan.

AUTOENROLLMENT OF EMPLOYEES.—Theemployer provides for autoenrollment of the em17
ployee in accordance with subsection (c).

(c) AUTOMATIC ENROLLMENT FOR EMPLOYER SPON21

SORED HEALTH BENEFITS.—

(1) IN GENERAL.—The requirement of this sub23
section with respect to an employer and an employee

is that the employer automatically enroll suchs em25
ployee into the employment-based health benefits
plan for individual coverage under the plan option
with the lowest applicable employee premium.

Tchocky

08-05-09, 01:10 PM

Pg 145 Line 15-17 – An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public opt plan.

Okay then. Look at what it actually says.

Quoting relevant section.

Source from http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr3200IH/pdf/BILLS-111hr3200IH.pdf

An employer meets the requirements of this section if such employer does all of the following:
24 (1) OFFER OF COVERAGE.—The employer offers each employee individual and family coverage under a qualified health benefits plan (or under a current employment-based health plan (within the meaning of section 102(b))) in accordance with section 312.
(2) CONTRIBUTION TOWARDS COVERAGE.—If an employee accepts such offer of coverage, the employer makes timely contributions towards such coverage in accordance with section 312.
(3) CONTRIBUTION IN LIEU OF COVERAGE.—
Beginning with Y2, if an employee declines such offer but otherwise obtains coverage in an Exchange participating health benefits plan (other than by reason of being covered by family coverage as a spouse or dependent of the primary insured), the employer shall make a timely contribution to the Health Insurance Exchange with respect to each such employee in accordance with section 313

CastleBravo

08-05-09, 01:13 PM

'with the lowest applicable employee premium' Do you think that will be a private company? This is designed to destroy private insurance. Which means no more choice, and the un-employment of hundreds of thousands of people currently employed by those companies.

August

08-05-09, 02:19 PM

AramikeCare

Personally, I'd favor a health plan that mandates that all people of certain incomes or higher purchase health insurance. This could be done as a payroll deduction. I would then mandate that insurance companies be required to insure EVERYONE, regardless of existing conditions. Furthmore, I would mandate standardized rates based upon behaviors, and NOT health conditions (in other words, the smokers will pay a little more, etc). People that can't afford insurance can receive government plans, similar to the ones already available to the poor in most states. Plans would have strict limits on co-pays and deductables.

Finally, the government would subsidize catastrophic care for EVERYONE.

Massachusetts has instituted pretty much that exact same system. It hasn't lowered costs much yet but to be fair it is still relatively new.

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 02:34 PM

Massachusetts has instituted pretty much that exact same system. It hasn't lowered costs much yet but to be fair it is still relatively new.

The only way to lower cost August is to address what drove the cost up to begin with. The first place we look is at the patient. Lawsuit happy hookers looking to retire early. Malpractice insurance is very high as a result. Sure, I will not deny that some lawsuits for malpractice are legit but others are just outlandish and help the court systems grind to a halt. We can throw in the hospitals and drug companies for the same lawsuit happy hookers hit list. We are spending the better part of our time pointing at others over healthcare cost when in fact we need to be pointing at ourselves.

CastleBravo

08-05-09, 02:40 PM

You need look no further than the government run medicare/medicaid programs to see how bad this will be. Both are bankrupt. And treatment is minimul at best. It is an assembly line health care system with bearucrats at the lead.

I contacted my state deligation to congress and none of the Democrats want to reveal their schedules.

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 02:45 PM

You need look no further than the government run medicare/medicaid programs to see how bad this will be. Both are bankrupt. And treatment is minimul at best. It is an assembly line health care system with bearucrats at the lead.

Castle, I have brought that up numerous times and it has been ignored same. I witness this with my parents. It is like beating a dead horse.

CastleBravo

08-05-09, 02:54 PM

Castle, I have brought that up numerous times and it has been ignored same. I witness this with my parents. It is like beating a dead horse.

Never give up telling the truth......Our health care system is not broken. That is a lie. If it were broken people from all over the world wouldn't come here for treatment. No one of means goes to Africa for treatment.

Tchocky

08-05-09, 02:56 PM

People seem to like Medicare

Health Care Consumers Give Medicare Higher Marks Than Private Plans

http://www.nationaljournal.com/njonline/mp_20090629_2600.php

CastleBravo

08-05-09, 02:57 PM

People seem to like Medicare

http://www.nationaljournal.com/njonline/mp_20090629_2600.php

Again it goes back to choice. When that is the only option the level of care will go down. I bet you are against monopolies. This is no different. My mother is 76 yo and I'm not happy with her care under Medicaid/Medicare. But have no choice.

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 03:00 PM

Never give up telling the truth......Our health care system is not broken. That is a lie. If it were broken people from all over the world wouldn't come here for treatment. No one of means goes to Africa for treatment.

People do not realize Castle. My mother has medication that cost $1200.00 per month. She pays out of pocket. My old man is on hand fulls of heart medications as he has had congestive heart failure twice. This medication is paid out of pocket. Medicare only goes so far. As I have been screaming all along...fix the damn proplem that got the cost of healthcare so high then think about a universal healthcare system.

CastleBravo

08-05-09, 03:02 PM

People do not realize Castle. My mother has medication that cost $1200.00 per month. She pays out of pocket. My old man is on hand fulls of heart medications as he has had congestive heart failure twice. This medication is paid out of pocket. Medicare only goes so far. As I have been screaming all along...fix the damn proplem that got the cost of healthcare so high then think about a universal healthcare system.

Trial Lawyers.

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 03:05 PM

People seem to like Medicare

http://www.nationaljournal.com/njonline/mp_20090629_2600.php

Not all of them.

mookiemookie

08-05-09, 03:36 PM

Never give up telling the truth......Our health care system is not broken. That is a lie. If it were broken people from all over the world wouldn't come here for treatment. No one of means goes to Africa for treatment.

Our health care system is broken. Any system that bankrupts the people that make significant use of it is broken. You must work for an insurance company.

If it were broken people from all over the world wouldn't come here for treatment.Got any stats to back up that statement?

Do you know how big the medical tourism business is in this country? Americans going abroad due to the skyrocketing costs in health care?

AVGWarhawk

08-05-09, 03:46 PM

Our health care system is broken. Any system that bankrupts the people that make significant use of it is broken. You must work for an insurance company.

Got any stats to back up that statement?

Do you know how big the medical tourism business is in this country? Americans going abroad due to the skyrocketing costs in health care?

The actual care itself is not broken. The cost and system as a whole is broken.

I know of no one personally that has gone abroad for healthcare. I don't think I ever will.

CastleBravo

08-05-09, 03:54 PM

Our health care system is broken. Any system that bankrupts the people that make significant use of it is broken. You must work for an insurance company.

Wrong health care is working thanks to the dedicated men and women who treat people everyday, and save lives.

What you are referring to are people who make bad decisions in their lives and want others to pay for it. Medical care in this country is second to none. There is no doubt about that. The reform you are talking about will only reduce that care.

Got any stats to back up that statement?

Do you know how big the medical tourism business is in this country? Americans going abroad due to the skyrocketing costs in health care?

No I don't nor do I care. Again they are provided with the best medical care in the world. If they don't like the care they have every right to seek other options. The so called reform bill, as it stands would remove that option for many.

Pg 30 Sec 123 – THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get.
Pg 29 Lines 4-16 – YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!! You can only get so much “care” per year.
Pg 42 – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. You have no choice!
PG 50 Section 152 – HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.
Pg 58 – Govt will have real-time access to individuals finances & a National ID Healthcard will be issued!
Pg 59 Lines 21-24 – Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for elective funds transfer.
PG 65 Sec 164 – Payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 – Govt is creating an HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Govt control.
PG 84 Sec 203 – Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs for private HC plans in the Exchange.
PG 85 Line 7 – Specs for Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration your Healthcare!
PG 91 Lines 4-7 – Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example – Translation for illegal aliens.
Pg 95 Lines 8-18 – The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individually for Govt HC plan.
PG 85 Line 7 – Specs of Benefit Levels for Plans. #AARP members – your Health care WILL be rationed.
PG 102 Lines 12-18 – Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will be automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.
Pg 124 Lines 24-25 – No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No “judicial review” against Govt Monopoly.
Pg 127 Lines 1-16 – Doctors/AMA – The Govt will tell YOU what you can make.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 – An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public opt plan. NO CHOICE.
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 – Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.
Pg 149 Lines 16-24 – ANY Emplyer with payroll of 400k & above who does not provide public option pays 8% tax on all payroll.
Pg 150 Lines 9-13 – Businesses with payroll between 251k & 400k who doesn’t provide public option pays 2-6% tax on all payroll.
Pg 167 Lines 18-23 – ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC accrding to Govt will be taxed 2.5%.
Pg 170 Lines 1-3 – Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (You and I will pay for them.)
Pg 195 – Officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access to ALL Americans’ financial/personal records.
PG 203 Line 14-15 – “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax” Yes, it says that.
Pg 239 Line 14-24 – Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor will be very affected.
Pg 241 Line 6-8 – Doctors, doesn’t matter what specialty you have, you’ll all be paid the same.
PG 253 Line 10-18 – Govt sets value of Doctor’s time, professional judgments, etc. Literally value of humans.
PG 265 Sec 1131 – Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.
PG 268 Sec 1141 – Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
PG 272 Sec 1145 – TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS – Cancer patients. Welcome to rationing!
Page 280 Sec 1151 – The Govt will penalize hospitals for what Govt deems preventable readmissions.
Pg 317 Lines 13-20 – PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Doctors what/how much they can own.
Pg 317-318 Lines 21-25,1-3 – PROHIBITION on expansion – Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand.
pg 321 Lines 2-13 – Hospitals have option to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can you say ACORN?!!
Pg335 Lines 16-25 Pg 336-339 – Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing.
Pg 341 Lines 3-9 – Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing all into Govt HC plan.
Pg 354 Sec 1177 – Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs.
Pg 379 Sec 1191 – Govt creates more bureaucracy – Telehealth Advisory Committee. Can you say HC by phone?
PG 425 Lines 4-12 – Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life. Seniors will be interviewed every year for health issues and decisions made as to what care they can or can’t receive
Pg 425 Lines 17-19 – Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!
PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 – Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.
PG 427 Lines 15-24 – Govt mandates program for orders for end of life. The Govt has a say in how your life ends.
Pg 428, 429 Lines 17-25, 1-9 – An “advanced care planning consult” will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.
PG 429 Lines 10-12 – “Advanced care planning consultation” may include an ORDER for end of life plans. An ORDER from the government.
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 – The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
PG 430 Lines 11-15 – The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.
Pg 469 – Community Based Home Medical Services = Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Services here!!?
Page 472 Lines 14-17 – PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment to a community-based org. Like ACORN?
PG 489 – Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt into your marriage.
Pg 494-498 – Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services.

Aramike

08-05-09, 03:55 PM

Massachusetts has instituted pretty much that exact same system. It hasn't lowered costs much yet but to be fair it is still relatively new.What do you think of the program there?

August

08-05-09, 06:23 PM

What do you think of the program there?

Since I just moved to Mass last month and I already had health insurance through work it hasn't really been an issue for me yet. It sure is nice to know that if I loose my job, and therefore my insurance, there is a safety net to fall back on.

mookiemookie

08-05-09, 06:57 PM

No I don't nor do I care. So you're admitting your point was pulled out of your "stern tube". Mmhmm.

And then you go on to quote some garbage:

Pg 30 Sec 123 – THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get....

(snip) blah blah words and lies(/snip)Why do you have to rely on out and out lies to argue your point?

Since the analysis was done by an opponent of the plan, it contains many half-truths, distortions, and outright lies about the actual bill (shocking, huh?) Some of these I found at open salon (http://open.salon.com/blog/charlie_redmond/2009/07/29/that_email_making_the_rounds_picking_apart_healthc are_bill), and some I looked up myself. First the ones from salon:

"Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!

...the wording on P22 has to do with establishing premium rates by conducting a study of current employer-provided health insurance. There's nothing on that page about employer mandates, either through self-insurance or any other kind of insurance.

Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!

What's on P29 is a proposed formula for determining cost-sharing & co-payments. There's nothing about "health care rationing."

Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)

The committee proposed is not a government committee; it's a public advisory committee chaired by the Surgeon General & with the following membership: 18 members, as worded in the bill, "who are not Federal employees or officers" and up to 8 members "who are Federal employees or officers". So two-thirds of the committee are explicitly not govt, but private sector.

Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

There is no such statement, here on P50, or anywhere else in the bill. In fact, there is a completely opposite proposal: Section 246, on page 143, which explicitly excludes "Undocumented Aliens" --- "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.

well, yes ... to show you have coverage of some sort. We also have to show a driver's license, registration and an auto insurance card to drive in this country.

Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

well, yes ... to allow us to pay for coverage if we choose the new public plan. It's called EFT. You use it to pay bills. Welcome to the 21st century.

Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.

Yes, there will be rules. That's what bills that became law is --- rules.”

Here are a few of the further fallacies I discovered:

Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)

Not there. Page 84 deals with the different levels of plans to be offered; basic, premium, and enhanced, and the benefit levels each plan must meet.

Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.

It says use “appropriate entities” to “inform and educate individuals and employers about...participating health benefits plan options.” Specifically, outreach to “children” and individuals with “disabilities, mental illness, and other cognitive impairments.” No mention of ACORN or Americorps.

Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.

Wrong. People will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid—only if they have not elected to enroll in another participating plan.

Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.

The page says the employer “provides” auto-enrollment for employees. Provide, meaning to make available, not make mandatory.

Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll.

No mention of the $400,000 figure on page 149. The “employer contribution in lieu of coverage” is “8% of the average wages paid by the employer...taking into account all employees of the employer.”

Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.

This page deals with determining eligibility for “affordability credits.” The information required is “filing status, modified adjusted gross income, and number of dependents,” not ALL financial and personal records. Information the IRS already has, by the way.

Page 253: Government sets value of doctors’ time, their professional judgment, etc.

This page does not set the value of the doctor’s time, it requires “validation” of the doctor’s time, to prevent the government being billed for time not spent with the patient and services not rendered, I would assume.

Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.

This section deals with analyzing special needs PLANS with regard to “cost, quality of care, and patient satisfaction.” It has nothing to do with special needs PEOPLE.

Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory.

This section provides for “consultation” and “explanation” of such things as advanced care planning and advanced directives, and a “list of...resources to assist consumers and their families.” This is available to people who have not had such a consultation within the last 5 years.

Aramike

08-05-09, 09:03 PM

Since I just moved to Mass last month and I already had health insurance through work it hasn't really been an issue for me yet. It sure is nice to know that if I loose my job, and therefore my insurance, there is a safety net to fall back on.Heh, that's right - I wasn't just imagining that you were in RI at some point. :doh:

In any case, that's exactly the way it should be. People should NOT be at the mercy of an insurance company. Likewise, people should not be subjected to the absolute foolishness of yet another inefficient government system.

That's why I believe that the government should mandate a set of hard-and-fast rules to the insurance companies. Allow them to make money, of course - but the insurance companies do NOT have the right to make unlimited gobs of it due to unfair practices. EVERY OTHER industry of necessity is highly regulated. Hell, if the utilities want to raise rates here in Wisconsin, they have to get government approval. Even the health insurance industry is CURRENTLY highly regulated. But the current regulations are idiotic, exclusive, and does way more for the industry than the patient.

August

08-05-09, 09:49 PM

Heh, that's right - I wasn't just imagining that you were in RI at some point. :doh:

In any case, that's exactly the way it should be. People should NOT be at the mercy of an insurance company. Likewise, people should not be subjected to the absolute foolishness of yet another inefficient government system.

That's why I believe that the government should mandate a set of hard-and-fast rules to the insurance companies. Allow them to make money, of course - but the insurance companies do NOT have the right to make unlimited gobs of it due to unfair practices. EVERY OTHER industry of necessity is highly regulated. Hell, if the utilities want to raise rates here in Wisconsin, they have to get government approval. Even the health insurance industry is CURRENTLY highly regulated. But the current regulations are idiotic, exclusive, and does way more for the industry than the patient.

Agree 100%.

AVGWarhawk

08-06-09, 06:50 AM

Tribesman

08-06-09, 07:11 AM

Why do you have to rely on out and out lies to argue your point?

Would that cut and pasted chain e-mail of outright lies be one of the things Linda Douglass was talking about.

Got any stats to back up that statement?

Why bother, the falseness of that claim was dealt with in the other health topic. That the claim is repeated just shows how some people can't learn.

TDK1044

08-06-09, 12:02 PM

You know, Guys, strip all the rhetoric and political ideology away from this issue, and you're left with this.

The vast majority of Americans, whether or not they have medical insurance, have two main concerns regarding healthcare in the US.

1) The cost of health insurance
2) The cost of perscription medication

The solution to those two problems is not to nationalize the health service. That would be like nationalizing the NHL because ticket prices are too high.

The solution is to find a formula that allows the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies to make a decent profit, without all of us having to bend over.

There's clearly something wrong when a medication created in a factory in Kansas costs a US citizen more than twice as much as a Canadian citizen.

Bringing down the cost of health insurance is a more difficult proposition, as it involves dealing with ludicrous law suits against Doctors, as well as ending the grotesque game of how much a Hospital thinks it can soak an insurance company for with every claim.

If common sense prevailed in these two areas, then non nationalized health care would be affordable to all and freedom of choice would remain alive and well.

AVGWarhawk

08-06-09, 12:09 PM

Exactly TDK, there is no effort to fix a broken system. Just throw money at it and hope for the best.

SteamWake

08-06-09, 12:31 PM

Exactly TDK, there is no effort to fix a broken system. Just throw money at it and hope for the best.

When you get down to it it is really not an effort to correct a broken system in the first place.

Its all about power and controll.

Aramike

08-06-09, 12:44 PM

There's clearly something wrong when a medication created in a factory in Kansas costs a US citizen more than twice as much as a Canadian citizen.You're exactly right ... and the problem is Canada.

There are two layers to the problem:

1: The drug companies pay incredible costs to R&D new drugs.
2: People need these new drugs.

So, in order to assure that both layers are satisfied, SOMEONE has got to pay. Drug companies simply won't spend as much on R&D if they have no reasonable chance of recouping their costs.

Canada simply refuses to pay, leaving the US consumer to foot the bill. Indeed, there is SOME money to be had in Canada. so the drug companies will keep selling there. But, those same companies are also essentially forced into not only giving Canadians drugs on the cheap, but exporting certain items to the third world at THEIR expense, along with providing insane discounts or even free drugs to the impoverished.

Now, I'm not at all against helping the poor, but I AM against the American middle-class and up almost completely footing the bill for it, just because the Canadians don't want to.

Now, if I were in charge, I'd apply incredible political pressure to the Canadians to "split the difference", as it were. I would put such an enormous export tariff on all drugs headed that way, that the Canadians would find benefit in paying just a little bit more.

The bottom line is that I'm sick of US generosity being taken for granted, or even being forced upon us by the rest of the world. To me there is absolutely no reason why foreigners should gain access to OUR products for lower prices than we can. That is counter-intuitive to the laws of economics.

August

08-06-09, 02:29 PM

You're exactly right ... and the problem is Canada.

There are two layers to the problem:

1: The drug companies pay incredible costs to R&D new drugs.
2: People need these new drugs.

So, in order to assure that both layers are satisfied, SOMEONE has got to pay. Drug companies simply won't spend as much on R&D if they have no reasonable chance of recouping their costs.

Canada simply refuses to pay, leaving the US consumer to foot the bill. Indeed, there is SOME money to be had in Canada. so the drug companies will keep selling there. But, those same companies are also essentially forced into not only giving Canadians drugs on the cheap, but exporting certain items to the third world at THEIR expense, along with providing insane discounts or even free drugs to the impoverished.

Now, I'm not at all against helping the poor, but I AM against the American middle-class and up almost completely footing the bill for it, just because the Canadians don't want to.

Now, if I were in charge, I'd apply incredible political pressure to the Canadians to "split the difference", as it were. I would put such an enormous export tariff on all drugs headed that way, that the Canadians would find benefit in paying just a little bit more.

The bottom line is that I'm sick of US generosity being taken for granted, or even being forced upon us by the rest of the world. To me there is absolutely no reason why foreigners should gain access to OUR products for lower prices than we can. That is counter-intuitive to the laws of economics.

Hear, hear!

geetrue

08-06-09, 05:00 PM

When you get down to it it is really not an effort to correct a broken system in the first place.

Its all about power and controll.

You just knocked all of the milk bottles down with that one ... whooe!

Give that man anything off of the top shelf ... :woot:

Aramike

08-06-09, 09:06 PM

When you get down to it it is really not an effort to correct a broken system in the first place.

Its all about power and controll.Indeed, at least the current Obama plan is.

Tchocky

08-07-09, 01:53 AM

The solution to those two problems is not to nationalize the health service.

No one is seriously talking about nationalising the US health service. THat is not what the legislation is about.

Tribesman

08-07-09, 04:33 AM

Many leading R&D companies are not american . The American companies have R&D facilities and programs worldwide . The American companies get funded in part for R&D by foriegn governments and their health services.
Part of the foriegn work on R&D by US companies takes place in Canada and is funded by their government and health service.
The fact that other countries can both fund the research and development and deliver the drugs at a lower price to patients points to a serious flaw in the American system.
Actually given that the Euopean federation grants have enabled American firms to get their product on the world market much earlier it means that it is other countries that are subsidising them and enabling them to return a profit quicker ....which is the complete opposite of what Aramike claimed.

AVGWarhawk

08-07-09, 08:00 AM

SteamWake

08-07-09, 08:38 AM

No one is seriously talking about nationalising the US health service. THat is not what the legislation is about.

:o

Can I have a bedtime story please?

Tribesman

08-07-09, 09:00 AM

As of late the last trillion printed off at the Federal Reserve went to the economy and bail outs.
Yep and some of that bail out money went to industries that were in part financialy strained by the massive cost of health cover in the US.

Onkel Neal

08-07-09, 11:10 AM

We can sit here all day spewing venom and links to facts but it is all for naught. Has anyone on Capitol Hill stated were a trillion dollars ot fund this is going to come from? As of late the last trillion printed off at the Federal Reserve went to the economy and bail outs. :hmmm: I know, I know, Obama said he is going to take care of me and pay my mortgage also.

No sweat gents, just add some more to the future generations bill. :dead:

Yeah, no arguement here.

I'm not convinced universal health care is working out so well elsewhere either...
France Fights Universal Care's High Cost (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124958049241511735.html)

In the short term, it could be a blessing, but the inefficiencies and counter-productive nature of a government run, free--you get what you pay for, system ... I just don't see it working long term.

AVGWarhawk

08-07-09, 01:16 PM

I'm not convinced either. Every country has their success stories and their horror stories when it comes to medical care and coverage. All I see thus far are town hall meetings turning into riots. This could and probably will bury Obama.

TDK1044

08-07-09, 01:32 PM

In under a year, this Administration has achieved partial control of the banking industry, 60 percent of GM, and is now wanting to control health care. I think people are starting to see through the smoke and mirrors though.

The only "change you can believe in" will be the two dimes left rattling in your pocket once Obama hasn't taxed you. :DL

AVGWarhawk

08-07-09, 01:35 PM

CastleBravo

08-07-09, 01:47 PM

What has been said by the president.......

http://obamalies.net/

geetrue

08-07-09, 02:29 PM

The math on Obama's tax increase for the wealthy who make over $250,000 dollars a year comes to about $300 more per $10,000 dollars you actually make.

Doesn't sound bad for a poor person like me ...

It's the tax increase to come if he doesn't wake up that bothers me ...

Have you seen the graph on coporate earnings this year ... way down and of course all of those people out of work won't have a full years taxable income to get anything from.

No wonder we need national health care ... everyone is going to be hurting next April for sure.

SUBMAN1

08-07-09, 10:11 PM

Looks like Americans aren't as stupid as I previously thought.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99T32G00&show_article=1

-S

GoldenRivet

08-08-09, 12:28 AM

Task Force

08-08-09, 12:31 AM

"F" Obama

"F" the health care plan

"F" everybody who thinks I should have to shell out my hard earned cash to pay for Propecia the crack whore's insurance needs.

sorry boys and girls... that's just my humble little old opinion.

agreed... but maby for old people who need insurance... since they cant work as easy anymore...:yep:

Tribesman

08-08-09, 05:06 AM

Looks like Americans aren't as stupid as I previously thought.

Perhaps you shouldn't use people who shout......
An unruly Little Rock crowd heckled and shouted at two Arkansas (http://topics.breitbart.com/Arkansas/) Democratic congressmen Wednesday, accusing them of supporting a government-backed health plan (http://topics.breitbart.com/health+plan/) that would take away Americans' personal choice and freedom. .....
unless of course you can show the mythical plan they are ranting about.(please don't use the chain e-mail of made up "facts" that was posted in one of the other health reform topics by Bravo)

agreed... but maby for old people who need insurance... since they cant work as easy anymore...
They should have worked in the auto industry if they needed health insurance in their old age

SteamWake

08-08-09, 07:11 AM

Its hard not to shout when they arent listening...

As to the 'old pepole' isnt that what medicare / medicade was supposed to be for?

But really do we need another thread on this already have at least two.

Tchocky

08-08-09, 07:13 AM

"F" everybody who thinks I should have to shell out my hard earned cash to pay for Propecia the crack whore's insurance needs.

I mean, everyone without insurance is a prostitute. Right?

Right?

August

08-08-09, 08:32 AM

Its hard not to shout when they arent listening...

They will listen eventually.

GoldenRivet

08-08-09, 11:57 AM

I mean, everyone without insurance is a prostitute. Right?

Right?

no.... everyone that doesn't have insurance is not a prostitute.

however.

even if you are the president of a multi-billion dollar international conglomerate - I personally should NOT be forced to pay for your government sponsored insurance program... if you want it go get it yourself.

even if you are a manager of a book store, or an astronaut, or a homeless person, or a burger flipper - i personally should NOT be forced to pay for your government sponsored insurance program.

this health plan PUNISHES those who have good health care so that those without it can benifit from said punishment.

taking care of everyone's financial / health care needs is not MY responsibility.

mookiemookie

08-08-09, 12:07 PM

I wonder how the townhall screamers would be treated if they weren't (mostly) old white people?

Platapus

08-08-09, 12:10 PM

Do you also feel that you should not be forced to pay for police forces, Fire and EMS services, military forces, criminal justice services, and more either?

Fish

08-08-09, 12:16 PM

Tell me me please what do you pay for an all in health assourance in de USA?

We pay, on average, 1.096,07 euro a year in the netherlands.
Health assourance is compulsory (like a car assourance).

Tchocky

08-08-09, 12:24 PM

I pay around 1200 euros at the moment. I'll be moving to the Netherlands soon, I don't think the cost will change too much. But from what I've seen, the service will get better :)

GoldenRivet

08-08-09, 12:28 PM

Do you also feel that you should not be forced to pay for police forces, Fire and EMS services, military forces, criminal justice services

these are essential services - REQUIRED - for the preservation of order within a given society.

Me being FORCED into paying so that you can have treatment for kidney stones is not.

me being FORCED into paying so that you can receive cancer treatment for your lung cancer because you smoked your whole life away is NOT a matter of social order or national security.

IF I DONT USE THE FEDERAL INSURANCE - DONT MAKE ME PAY FOR IT.

thats my only request.

i'll keep receiving my quality care. if i need an important surgery you can bet im going to get it inside of a day or two.

you guys do your little social experiment, and let a bunch of governmental beurocrats replace your private beaurocrats if you want... but leave me out of it.

think of the march of dimes thread... it was a charity... but paying into it was your option.

now... if the tax man came to my door and said "you are required to donate a minimum of $50 to each of the following charities....

sorry... i would be livid

Fish

08-08-09, 12:29 PM

I pay around 1200 euros at the moment. I'll be moving to the Netherlands soon, I don't think the cost will change too much. But from what I've seen, the service will get better :)
As I like your sane reactions on this forum, your very welcome. :up:

OneToughHerring

08-08-09, 12:30 PM

these are essential services - REQUIRED - for the preservation of order within a given society.

Says who?

GoldenRivet

08-08-09, 12:33 PM

Says who?

says common sense.

show me a nation of 300 million or more people where there is no police force or military... and i will show you a nation of complete and utter chaos and lawlessness

GoldenRivet

08-08-09, 12:35 PM

Obama has a war brewing over this issue.

and he doesnt even know it. :nope:

OneToughHerring

08-08-09, 12:36 PM

says common sense.

show me a nation of 300 million or more people where there is no police force or military... and i will show you a nation of complete and utter chaos and lawlessness

Oh ok so countries under 300 million are not counted. I guess it makes sense to live in a under 300 million people country then.

GoldenRivet

08-08-09, 12:40 PM

Oh ok so countries under 300 million are not counted. I guess it makes sense to live in a under 300 million people country then.

thats a random number I have used as an example which would be representative of the approximate population of the United States.

it doesnt mean that larger or smaller nations are more or less secure without police and military :doh:

have you been drinking?

SteamWake

08-08-09, 12:42 PM

Tell me me please what do you pay for an all in health assourance in de USA?

We pay, on average, 1.096,07 euro a year in the netherlands.
Health assourance is compulsory (like a car assourance).

For my wife and myself nearly 1/3 of my salary. It would be alot less without my wife but hey she deserves it.

With Obamacare and other sundry taxes I see comming it will be at least 50%.

OneToughHerring

08-08-09, 12:47 PM

thats a random number I have used as an example which would be representative of the approximate population of the United States.

it doesnt mean that larger or smaller nations are more or less secure without police and military :doh:

have you been drinking?

So what you are really saying is that "police forces, Fire and EMS services, military forces, criminal justice services" are needed because "these are essential services - REQUIRED - for the preservation of order within a given society" just because it's like, your opinion, man. Not because there is some magical rule that says they should exist, it's just your personal view on the matter.

Considering the huge US military budget which is taken directly from the US tax payers pocket and fed to various private entities such as weapon makers etc. I would think that the average tax payer at least ought to be vary of what's going on.

And no I haven't been drinking. Have you been sniffing cocaine?

Thomen

08-08-09, 12:49 PM

So what you are really saying is that "police forces, Fire and EMS services, military forces, criminal justice services" are needed because "these are essential services - REQUIRED - for the preservation of order within a given society" just because it's like, your opinion, man. Not because there is some magical rule that says they should exist, it's just your personal view on the matter.

Finnland does not have any Police or Military?

OneToughHerring

08-08-09, 12:58 PM

Finnland does not have any Police or Military?

Sure but who decides what and how much is needed? It's a very complex set of decisions and not always up to the people to decide.

IMO this is a very American way of thinking, I'm thinking in terms of small government, Goldenrivet seems to be thinking in terms of big government. I wonder how this is so.

GoldenRivet

08-08-09, 01:08 PM

Goldenrivet seems to be thinking in terms of big government. I wonder how this is so.

Ill tell you what herring.

firstly... i passionately hate big government. though i do see some police and military as necessary for the protection of the general citizenry.

this opposition to big government should be abundantly evident in the fact that i think it is unfair for my family to be taxed to the tune of $2,000+ additional per year (or more) just so Obama can financially cover the doctor visit of every single citizen who is currently unhappy with their health care providor.

i agree with the statement that "healthcare reform is needed in America."

i virulently disagree with the idea that this "plan" is the answer.

if being opposed to such government takeovers is NOT anti-big government i dont know what is :doh:

Secondly, this is largely an American issue... if you want to start a thread about the governmental decisions of Finland and their effects on the Finnish people - please do so.

i promise i wont post uninformed, illogical and useless opinions in your Finnish health care reform thread.

OneToughHerring

08-08-09, 01:30 PM

http://static.globalissues.org/i/military/us-taxes-2009.png

Almost half of everything goes into "military spending and cost of past wars". I'd say that's a pretty big piece of the pie.

GoldenRivet

08-08-09, 01:34 PM

Almost half of everything goes into "military spending and cost of past wars". I'd say that's a pretty big piece of the pie.

so what does that have to do with doubling peoples taxes so they can pay for their neighbors doctor visits?

Tchocky

08-08-09, 01:41 PM

so what does that have to do with doubling peoples taxes so they can pay for their neighbors doctor visits?

Doubling of taxes?

Really?

Platapus

08-08-09, 01:52 PM

I normally do not forward post crap I receive in E-mail. But this struck me as somewhat humourous.

The following is a humourous posting about the health care issue

The American Medical Association has weighed in on the new health care plan being developed by the Obama Team.

The Allergists voted to scratch it, but the Dermatologists advised not to make any rash moves.

The Gastroenterologists had sort of a gut feeling about it, but the Neurologists thought the Administration had a lot of nerve.

The Obstetricians felt they were all laboring under a misconception.

Ophthalmologists considered the idea shortsighted.

Pathologists yelled, "Over my dead body!" while the Pediatricians said, 'Oh, Grow up!'

The Psychiatrists thought the whole idea was madness, while the Radiologists could see right through it.

Surgeons decided to wash their hands of the whole thing.

The Internists thought it was a bitter pill to swallow, and the Plastic Surgeons said, "This puts a whole new face on the matter."

The Podiatrists thought it was a step forward, but the Urologists were pissed off at the whole idea.

The Anesthesiologists thought the idea was a gas, and the Cardiologists didn't have the heart to say no.

In the end, the Proctologists won out, leaving the entire decision up to the *******s in Washington.

:rotfl:

We now return you to the normal bitchin and whinin. :har:

GoldenRivet

08-08-09, 01:55 PM

Doubling of taxes?

Really?

i know your hero says he can deliver on all these goods all the while lowering taxes.

but wait and see :nope:

doubling everyones taxes might be an exaggeration.

perhaps i should have said "significantly increasing taxes"

and i do mean significantly!

SUBMAN1

08-08-09, 01:59 PM

http://static.globalissues.org/i/military/us-taxes-2009.png

Almost half of everything goes into "military spending and cost of past wars". I'd say that's a pretty big piece of the pie.

I'd have to question the source of this information. Last I checked, medicare and Social Security, accounting for 52 Trillion in outstanding obligations, and National debt as well as stimulus money will easily trump any military spending by a large margin. That blue section should be down around 5%.

An example from 2006 at the height of Operations in Iraq and Afganistan showing that being much lower:
http://www.heritage.org/press/commentary/ed041406d.cfm

-S

Here’s a breakdown of how Washington will spend that $23,760 per household:

Social Security/Medicare: $7,875. The 15.3 percent payroll tax, split evenly between the employer and employee, covers most of these costs. This system can remain sustainable only if there are enough workers to support all retirees, which is why it risks collapsing under the weight of 77 million retiring baby boomers. If nothing is done, taxes eventually will need to be raised by the current equivalent of $11,000 per household to pay all promised benefits. The unpredictable costs of the new Medicare drug entitlement could add thousands more to each household’s tax bill.

Defense: $4,701. The defense budget covers everything from military salaries to operations in Iraq and Afghanistan to the research, development and acquisition of new technologies. Lawmakers drastically reduced defense spending following the collapse of communism in the early 1990s. The 9/11 attacks reversed this trend, and the $1,900 per household increase since 2001 has returned defense spending to its historical levels.

Low-income programs: $3,579. Nearly half of this spending subsidizes state Medicaid programs that provide health services to poor families. Other low-income spending includes: Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), food stamps, housing subsidies, child-care subsidies, Supplemental Security Income (SSI) and low-income tax credits. Despite recent rhetoric about “cuts for poor,” anti-poverty spending now tops 3 percent of GDP for the first time ever.

Interest on the federal debt: $1,930. The federal government is $8.2 trillion in debt. It owes $4.9 trillion to public bond owners, and the rest to other federal agencies (mostly to repay the Social Security trust fund, which lawmakers raid annually). Despite rising debt, record-low interest rates have limited costs. As interest rates rise back to normal levels, these costs will spike.

Federal employee retirement benefits: $870. This spending funds the retirement and disability benefits of federal employees, including the military.

Education: $732. Education spending is primarily a state and local function; 9 percent of the total comes from Washington. Federal education spending has surged 137 percent since the 2001 enactment of the No Child Left Behind Act. Most federal dollars are spent on low-income school districts, special education and college student financial aid.

Health research/regulation: $671. This spending is up 78 percent since 2001, and much of this growth is concentrated in the National Institute of Health. This category includes the Food and Drug Administration and dozens of grant programs for health providers.

Veterans’ benefits: $618. The federal government provides income and health benefits to war veterans. Spending is up 56 percent since 2001.

Community and regional development: $456. The $300 per household leap in this category since 2004 comes from the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), which is financing much of the Hurricane Katrina relief.

Highways/mass transit: $402. Most highway and mass-transit spending is financed by the 18.4 cent per-gallon federal gas tax. Washington subtracts an administrative cost and sends this money back to the states with numerous strings attached. Some economists suggest it would be more efficient to let states collect this tax and decide how to spend the money themselves.

Justice administration: $363. Justice spending includes federal attorneys and prisons, as well as law-enforcement grant programs. New homeland security costs have added $80 per household to justice spending.

Unemployment benefits: $338. Unemployment costs fluctuate based on the number of unemployed Americans. This year, unemployment costs are decreasing as job growth continues.

International affairs: $305. This includes foreign economic and military assistance, operation of American embassies abroad, and contributions to organizations such as the United Nations. International spending has doubled since 9/11.

Natural resources/environment: $287. This includes national parks, federal lands, water projects and environmental clean-up.

Agriculture: $235. Despite rhetoric about supporting small family farms, the vast majority of farm subsidies are distributed to large farms with average household incomes over $135,000.

The programs listed above cover $23,362 per household. The remaining $398 is allocated to all other federal programs, including social services, space exploration, air transportation and energy.

mookiemookie

08-08-09, 02:07 PM

mookiemookie

08-08-09, 02:09 PM

I'd have to question the source of this information.

And then you go on to post something from the Heritage Foundation. They're not the most unbiased of sources.

OneToughHerring

08-08-09, 02:14 PM

Well if you put for example veterans things and the wars in different pots then it can be made to look like the amount going into actual warfare is smaller.

Steel_Tomb

08-08-09, 02:34 PM

For those who say "why the hell should I fork out my cash etc etc etc" what would happen if you lost your job and could no longer afford the insurance... and a family member of yours becomes ill... I bet you'd be bloody grateful for a state health system then hmm?

I'm sorry, but to me personally the view of "Its my money! miiinee! I don't want to ever help anyone else with a health system" is a very selfish approach to things. Christ the US is one of the wealthiest nations in the world... the least you can do is HELP people instead of counting your pennies and reveling in your wealth at the expense of others who may be desperate for help. Not everyone who might need a state health service will be a junkie or some alchy begging off the street. From what I've read online and on these very forums there are a lot of honest good people in some serious **** because they lost their jobs and can't afford the mortgage on their homes.

The US makes itself out to be a beacon of wealth and living the good life.... maybe it would be even better if you guys decided to go put yourself out JUST A LITTLE BIT to help those maybe not quite so fortunate as yourself!

SUBMAN1

08-08-09, 03:13 PM

And then you go on to post something from the Heritage Foundation. They're not the most unbiased of sources.Yet the friends committee is I assume? Check your source. Pot calling the kettle black again, but you prove this to be the case in almost any post you post.

Lets give you the facts though - this site above is the only site that has military spending way off the chart.

The facts:
1 Trillion on Stimulus = nearly 45% of the entire US budget. Where is that factored in? The graphic above has got to be the most skewed biased graphic I have ever seen that is tried to be passed off as fact, when in fact it is a lie of the most massive capacity.

-S

mookiemookie

08-08-09, 03:17 PM

Yet the friends committee is I assume? Check your source. Pot calling the kettle black again.

Lets give you the facts though - this site above is the only site that has military spending way off the chart.

The facts:
1 Trillion on Stimulus = nearly 45% of the entire US budget. Where is that factored in? The graphic above has got to be the most skewed biased graphic I have ever seen that is tried to be passed off as fact, when in fact it is a lie of the most massive capacity.

-S
I made no claims to the validity of the Friends Committee. I simply was pointing out the fact that you said they were biased, and then posted something biased in response.

I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it's sloppy debating to call someone out for doing something and then turn around and do the same thing yourself. If pointing that out makes me a troll, so be it.

SteamWake

08-08-09, 03:32 PM

And then you go on to post something from the Heritage Foundation. They're not the most unbiased of sources.

Perhaps not unbiased but they sure as hell get there facts straight.

GoldenRivet

08-08-09, 04:43 PM

For those who say "why the hell should I fork out my cash etc etc etc" what would happen if you lost your job and could no longer afford the insurance?

Been there done that got the t-shirt... twice

I WOULD NOT become a gold brickin' pan handler.

I WOULD... do what any other hard working person would do, roll up my sleves, shed my pride and walk my ass down to taco bell or burger king and fill out an application... Work multiple jobs... Move to a part of the country where work is readily available.

There is a help wanted sign in nearly every shop, store, restaurant and fast food joint where I live.

Believe it or not I made more money per year stocking shelves at dollar general than I ever did while putting my $100,000 education to work at a regional airline... The jobs like at dollar general suck... But they pay the bills... if one is in fact desperate... No job is really beneath you.

My money IS mine... It's money I worked hard for, went to school for, worked sh*tty thankless jobs for... Charity should be voluntary, not a federal requirement.

FIREWALL

08-08-09, 05:23 PM

I've noticed in just about every post for Pro Medifare plan, the rebuttle argument is always.... What If... What If...

Or some well taught tactic of going off to left field with a What about , this ,that or the other thing that has nothing to do with the Topic.

Those who use those tactics imo are FREELOADERS full of hot air.

Don't try to tell me I have to pay for your free ride.

Respectfully to members of SS who are from countries that this system works. I am happy for you.

I just don't like it crammed down my throat here in USA as my country is largely based on , Freedom of Choice.

And hopefully will continue to be. :DL

AngusJS

08-08-09, 07:21 PM

Been there done that got the t-shirt... twice

I WOULD NOT become a gold brickin' pan handler.

I WOULD... do what any other hard working person would do, roll up my sleves, shed my pride and walk my ass down to taco bell or burger king and fill out an application... Work multiple jobs... Move to a part of the country where work is readily available.

There is a help wanted sign in nearly every shop, store, restaurant and fast food joint where I live.

Believe it or not I made more money per year stocking shelves at dollar general than I ever did while putting my $100,000 education to work at a regional airline... The jobs like at dollar general suck... But they pay the bills... if one is in fact desperate... No job is really beneath you.

My money IS mine... It's money I worked hard for, went to school for, worked sh*tty thankless jobs for... Charity should be voluntary, not a federal requirement.

Good thing you didn't get too sick during those times. Good luck paying for major surgery or extended hospital stays on your own.

This isn't about charity, it's not about handouts. It's about fixing a system which does everything in its power to deny coverage, which bankrupts people during the most difficult times of their lives, and which breeds inefficiency and waste.

OneToughHerring

08-08-09, 07:41 PM

My money IS mine... It's money I worked hard for, went to school for, worked sh*tty thankless jobs for... Charity should be voluntary, not a federal requirement.

I think giving money to the military is charity. It's charity to people like Bush jr, Cheney and the military industrial tycoons. I guess that's the type of charity you're in favour of.

FIREWALL

08-08-09, 07:45 PM

Good thing you didn't get too sick during those times. Good luck paying for major surgery or extended hospital stays on your own.

This isn't about charity, it's not about handouts. It's about fixing a system which does everything in its power to deny coverage, which bankrupts people during the most difficult times of their lives, and which breeds inefficiency and waste.

Are you a US citizen ?

GoldenRivet

08-08-09, 08:39 PM

Good thing you didn't get too sick during those times. Good luck paying for major surgery or extended hospital stays on your own.

matter of fact. :stare:

My wife fell down a flight of stairs and suffered severe nerve damage in her right leg, and caused a deep vein thrombosis (blood clot in your artery) that required hospitalization immediately during one such time that our insurance options were virtually non-existent.

this was considered life threatening.

she spent a week in the hospital (expensive but she got the care she needed within 5 - 10 minutes of arriving at the ER)

This injury has exposed a hereditary condition called Protein C & S Deficiency (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/205470-overview) which causes blood clots quite quickly and easily - even for something as simple as bumping your leg on the corner of the table.

since this little accident, she has to be on Lovenox Injections once per day for the remainder of her life.

these shots cost $30,000 per year... of which our current insurance provider covers $29,000 per year.

at the time of the accident, we were out of pocket for the hospital stay, follow up visits etc.

All of this took place in 2003... her medical debt for the hospital stay was paid off within about 18 months due largely in part to our hard work earning us money... we later used that money to pay for our own ride (i know thats a novel concept for some of you)

so dont preach to me about the "what ifs"

i have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER that if my wife were forced into this BS ObamaCare nonsense.

she would likely be permanently disabled or dead right now :stare::stare::stare::stare::stare:

so i dont want to hear this crap

SteamWake

08-08-09, 08:51 PM

I know this is a hot topic but uhhh dont take your eyes off Cap and Tax... er Trade.

GoldenRivet

08-08-09, 08:55 PM

folks have to realize that when the government gets these big ideas its always the middle class that gets shafted.

im not happy being shafted.

:shifty:

August

08-08-09, 11:39 PM

The US makes itself out to be a beacon of wealth and living the good life.... maybe it would be even better if you guys decided to go put yourself out JUST A LITTLE BIT to help those maybe not quite so fortunate as yourself!

Maybe you ought to get informed on how much public and private money Americans give away to the rest of the world in foreign aid and charitable donations before you start lecturing us.

Tchocky

08-09-09, 04:59 AM

i have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER that if my wife were forced into this BS ObamaCare nonsense.

she would likely be permanently disabled or dead right now

Wow.

Tribesman

08-09-09, 05:46 AM

Maybe you ought to get informed on how much public and private money Americans give away to the rest of the world in foreign aid and charitable donations before you start lecturing us.
If you take out the government military subsidies for other countries to keep the American defence industry employees off social welfare would the amount be comparably less than say for example Sweden or Britain?:yep:

There is a help wanted sign in nearly every shop, store, restaurant and fast food joint where I live.

Do those jobs come with healthcare?

GoldenRivet

08-09-09, 05:54 AM

Wow.

exactly... see the video posted about the socialized health care in Canada over in the "it would mean the end of the Dems as a party" thread.

a similar situation happened to a woman in the video who ended up having to have both legs amputated as a result of their botched nonsense health scare system.

if handled the least bit incorrectly - the DVT could have travelled to my wife's brain, heart or lungs - resulting in her death... or she may have been permanently disabled.

its frightening what they are trying to do to our health care system. :nope:

GoldenRivet

08-09-09, 05:55 AM

Do those jobs come with healthcare?

some do.

antikristuseke

08-09-09, 06:00 AM

exactly... see the video posted about the socialized health care in Canada over in the "it would mean the end of the Dems as a party" thread.

a similar situation happened to a woman in the video who ended up having to have both legs amputated as a result of their botched nonsense health scare system.

if handled the least bit incorrectly - the DVT could have travelled to my wife's brain, heart or lungs - resulting in her death... or she may have been permanently disabled.

its frightening what they are trying to do to our health care system. :nope:

This i silly, there are similar horror stories from both side of the issue. Unless there is a statisticaly significat difference in the likelyhood in one system over the other this is just silly.

GoldenRivet

08-09-09, 06:09 AM

This i silly

I agree that it is silly.

I agree that we desperately need health care reform.

I disagree that Obama's "plan" is the route we need to take.

1. it is NOT bipartisan in any shape or form - Nancy Pilosi is WAY to far left - borderline extremist to entertain the idea of cooperating with the right on this issue. It is her and Barry's love child and they want it forced upon us all no matter what it takes.

2. It is the opinion of EVERY health care professional i have personally spoken to, from Surgeons to Anesthesiologists to Nurses to LVNs - that this plan will significantly lower the standard of care in the United States.

3. It is overly complex.

4. it is being crammed down our throats and the Dems are - for some reason - trying to rush this thing into action way too fast... it seems like congress has been trying to rush at lightning pace to "push" bills through. the stimulus packages, the bills they hired speed readers to read, all this nonsense... take your time congress, this is a big pill you're asking us to swallow and you cannot rush a trillion dollar bill through the system in a matter of weeks.:nope:

5. it is largely unpopular ... many of the poll numbers which i have seen indicate that approximately 76% of those polled are opposed to the Health Care plan.

6. Congress needs to realize that pushing this thing through... that forcing it through... is political suicide.

August

08-09-09, 08:41 AM

If you take out the government military subsidies for other countries to keep the American defence industry employees off social welfare would the amount be comparably less than say for example Sweden or Britain?:yep:

Never miss a chance to bad mouth us eh Tribesman? Well, you're wrong again:

Americans give twice as much as the next most charitable country, according to a November 2006 comparison done by the Charities Aid Foundation. In philanthropic giving as a percentage of gross domestic product, the U.S. ranked first at 1.7%. No. 2 Britain gave 0.73%, while France, with a 0.14% rate, trailed such countries as South Africa, Singapore, Turkey and Germany.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-25-charitable_N.htm

OneToughHerring

08-09-09, 11:33 AM

August,

so you count US help to, say, victims of the hurricane Katrina as 'aid'? Shouldn't that be like, normal functions of a society? Even in like, developing nations, and stuff?

How about looking at foreign aid?

http://static.globalissues.org/i/aid/2009/net-oda-2008.png

Tribesman

08-09-09, 02:18 PM

Never miss a chance to bad mouth us eh Tribesman?
There are always so many opertunities where people wave the flag without thinking, if people from another nation was doing it they would get the same treatment.
Well, you're wrong again:

No, as the claim made was about foriegn aid .

But I suppose the best lesson for those that brag about their great financial donations would come from a rather old little known publication called the Bible.

Fish

08-09-09, 02:48 PM

For my wife and myself nearly 1/3 of my salary. It would be alot less without my wife but hey she deserves it.

With Obamacare and other sundry taxes I see comming it will be at least 50%.
My wife and me pay about 8 % of our income (pension).

Fish

08-09-09, 03:15 PM

Never miss a chance to bad mouth us eh Tribesman? Well, you're wrong again:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-25-charitable_N.htm

The biggest chunk of the donations, $96.82 billion or 32.8%, went to religious organizations. The second largest slice, $40.98 billion or 13.9%, went to education, including gifts to colleges, universities and libraries.
Buying a place in heaven isn't charity. And education doesn't need charity in most countrys.

August

08-09-09, 05:53 PM

No, as the claim made was about foriegn aid

No it wasn't, go back and reread Steel Tombs post. No once was foreign aid mentioned. Nice try at redefining the argument though.

How much does Ireland give again?

August

08-09-09, 05:55 PM

Buying a place in heaven isn't charity.

Nice way of belittling peoples generosity. Perhaps you'd prefer they didn't try to buy their place in heaven all then?

Kptlt. Neuerburg

08-09-09, 06:12 PM

Heres my view on all this, insurance companies legaly don't have the right to deny coverage to certian persons but guess what they do it anyways. Why do they do? One answer MONEY!!!!! The system is broke and has been broke since the 1950's and Obama's health care plan is a way of fixing it. If you want to call it "socialist","evil","bad for everyone" go ahead but it needs to be fixed. But the Republicans who are scared of anything that might the "status quo" don't want this(go figure). Ex-president Bush lied about everything that he "promised" during his campaign for president. He said the the Iraq War was over so why are we still there, solders still dieing? I think Obama is doing more to fix the United States than the Bush ever did in his term in office. Its just that people expect too much too quickly out of Obama, but at least he is doing SOMETHING, while Bush did NOTHING!!!! How many people one this forum who are from the United States know how insurance companys work who don't work for one? I know quite a bit about and never worked for one.

Tribesman

08-09-09, 08:32 PM

No it wasn't, go back and reread Steel Tombs post. No once was foreign aid mentioned. Nice try at redefining the argument though.

Damn. you're right , I am so very sorry.
When I quoted.....
Maybe you ought to get informed on how much public and private money Americans give away to the rest of the world in foreign aid and charitable donations before you start lecturing us.
I should have realised that giving money to the foriegners in the rest of the world didn't mean giving money to the foriegners in the rest of the world.
Thanks for putting me right on that one.

How much does Ireland give again?
Good question , according to that second chart Herring posted its a fair bit below the agreed target, but in proportion its about 3 times what the US gives .
But hey lets have a big cheer for Luxembourg,:woot: whoda thought that a little place with less than half a million people would even make it onto that first chart

August

08-09-09, 11:20 PM

Good question , according to that second chart Herring posted its a fair bit below the agreed target, but in proportion its about 3 times what the US gives

Except that foreign aid is only a small fraction of what US citizens give to various charitable organizations but you knew that right?

Tribesman

08-10-09, 05:31 AM

Except that foreign aid is only a small fraction of what US citizens give to various charitable organizations but you knew that right?
Yes , as the article you posted shows domestic charities and education grants make a sizeable chunk of those charitable donations so should be excluded, though the double counting of foundations money seems a bit suspect.

August

08-10-09, 07:17 AM

Yes , as the article you posted shows domestic charities and education grants make a sizeable chunk of those charitable donations so should be excluded, though the double counting of foundations money seems a bit suspect.

You can't exclude them. If I donate $100 bucks to the Red Cross or to the Catholic Church they spend it where they think it's most needed. That might be for either domestic or foreign projects.

MR. Wood

08-10-09, 10:57 AM

I dont want goverment controlled health care. It's a bad idea just think of how bad the lines are at the bmv.:down:

Tribesman

08-10-09, 11:40 AM

You can't exclude them. If I donate $100 bucks to the Red Cross or to the Catholic Church they spend it where they think it's most needed. That might be for either domestic or foreign projects.
Ah but you can to a certain extent, they are charities which means they are supposed to publish the spendng as part of their tax break deal .
So if you take your first example thats easy , look at the spending of the national American Red Cross which only spends domestic then look at the International services dept of the American Red Cross which only spends out foriegn.
Now of course with church spending it can be quite tricky, after all there has been long history of the big loud evangelists making merry with good peoples honest charitable donations.
But lets take Pat Robertson for example, he really rakes in them donations doesn't he. Slight problem there as he seems to fly very loose with his obligations regarding keeping the records which are needed to retain his tax breaks. But what he does publish shows that he gets a lot of charity money from Americans and spends a hell of a lot of it selling his vision to Americans.....and a little bit selling his vision to foriegners.

Tribesman

08-10-09, 11:53 AM

I dont want goverment controlled health care
Better not join the military then.
Then again in 2005 the VHA managed to outscore every large private health service provider across a whole range of categories didn't it.

mookiemookie

08-10-09, 12:06 PM

I dont want goverment controlled health care. It's a bad idea just think of how bad the lines are at the bmv.:down:

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology and the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the environmental protection agency, using legal tender issed by the federal reserve bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the department of labor and the occupational safety and health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to ny house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal’s inspection, and which has not been plundered of all it’s valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log on to the internet which was developed by the defense advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.com and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can’t do anything right.

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 12:13 PM

If anyone remembers the Assault Wepons Ban of 1994 it ushered in a 12 year Republican majority in congress. This health care reform has the very definate potential to be just as devistating to the Democrats.

Tchocky

08-10-09, 12:16 PM

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology and the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the environmental protection agency, using legal tender issed by the federal reserve bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the department of labor and the occupational safety and health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to ny house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal’s inspection, and which has not been plundered of all it’s valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log on to the internet which was developed by the defense advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.com and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can’t do anything right.

Read it many times before, makes a good essential point.

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 12:24 PM

http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C4&Date=20090807&Category=NEWS06&ArtNo=908070387&Ref=AR&MaxW=575&MaxH=400&Border=0
Mike Sola of Milan demands that U.S. Rep. John Dingell explain why his son Scott, who has cerebral palsy, would not be covered under health insurance reform legislation.

Tribesman

08-10-09, 12:30 PM

Mike Sola of Milan demands that U.S. Rep. John Dingell explain why his son Scott, who has cerebral palsy, would not be covered under health insurance reform legislation.
Can Mike Sola show the world the proposed bit of legislation that says people with cerebal palsy will be excluded.
Still at least its better than sarah Palin bringing her family into the news again by saying the government will decide to kill her child.

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 12:42 PM

Can Mike Sola show the world the proposed bit of legislation that says people with cerebal palsy will be excluded.
Still at least its better than sarah Palin bringing her family into the news again by saying the government will decide to kill her child.

It goes to the rationing of health care which has been seen in every health care system of this type. Mr. Sola's son has no value to the state which will provide the health care and will there fore be excluded.

Tchocky

08-10-09, 12:46 PM

It goes to the rationing of health care which has been seen in every health care system of this type. Mr. Sola's son has no value to the state which will provide the health care and will there fore be excluded.

Where does it say that the state will provide the health care?

The White House

08-10-09, 12:49 PM

It goes to the rationing of health care which has been seen in every health care system of this type. Mr. Sola's son has no value to the state which will provide the health care and will there fore be excluded.

We shall cull the weak from the herd.

We are still watching.

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 01:01 PM

Where does it say that the state will provide the health care?

If it doesn't say it expliciately, like most laws the devil is in the details. We can only go by what Mr. Obama has said publicly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE

I can only guess asto why someone who claims to be from the ruins of Europe would want every country to be in ruin

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 01:19 PM

Believe it..............yet we will continue on that path...........Obama backs off? They see the rebellion.
Canada's Health Care System Would Not Work For US
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/08/10/obama_canadas_health_care_system_would_not_work_fo r_us.html

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 01:24 PM

+57% oppose single payer!

House Democratic leaders have set up a healthcare “war room” to help their rank-and-file members navigate a tumultuous August in which they find themselves on the defensive on their signature issue.

http://hotairpundit.blogspot.com/2009/08/house-democrats-set-up-war-room-on.html

mookiemookie

08-10-09, 02:17 PM

Triple posting? nice...

http://www.driftbitz.com.au/products/Wastegates/images/wastegate.jpg

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 02:27 PM

I wanted to make sure the white house guy wouldn't miss the point. It happens way too often with this administration. :woot:

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 02:57 PM

mookiemookie

08-10-09, 02:59 PM

Health care in the US is not broken. Many folks come to this country for health care they cannot receive in their own countries. Why is that you ask? Because we aren't a national health care system. And the system isn't broken.

Not broken? Do you think this is sustainable?

http://seniorjournal.com/images/Reference/HealthCare-GDP.jpg

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 03:06 PM

Well, I think we are talking about two different things. You are talking about cost and I'm talking about health care.

Tchocky

08-10-09, 03:07 PM

If it doesn't say it expliciately, like most laws the devil is in the details.

If it doesn't say it explicitly? Were you guessing?

How will the state provide the care under this legislation?

We can only go by what Mr. Obama has said publicly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE
Or, and bear with me because this is complex, you could go by the legislation that is in progress. And has been posted on this forum.

I can only guess asto why someone who claims to be from the ruins of Europe would want every country to be in ruin
What?

Health care in the US is not broken. Many folks come to this country for health care they cannot receive in their own countries.
All that that proves is that the US has a better healthcare system than some countries.

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 03:13 PM

All that that proves is that the US has a better healthcare system than some countries.

Exactly! Britain, Canada, Germany, the EU. Why try to fix something which isn't broken?

Tchocky

08-10-09, 03:24 PM

Exactly! Britain, Canada, Germany, etc. Why try to fix something which isn't broken?

No, I think you've missed my point. That the US has a better system than some countries does not mean that the US system does not need improving.

Regarding Britain Germany & Canada, here's a 2007 comparison study that puts the US system in last place.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/In-the-Literature/2007/Nov/Toward-Higher-Performance-Health-Systems--Adults-Health-Care-Experiences-in-Seven-Countries--2007.aspx

News story on the report - http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN1430711120070515

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Americans get the poorest health care and yet pay the most compared to five other rich countries, according to a report released on Tuesday.
Germany, Britain, Australia and Canada all provide better care for less money, the Commonwealth Fund report found.
"The U.S. health care system ranks last compared with five other nations on measures of quality, access, efficiency, equity, and outcomes," the non-profit group which studies health care issues said in a statement.
Canada rates second worst out of the five overall. Germany scored highest, followed by Britain, Australia and New Zealand.

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 03:35 PM

Yet people continue to come to the US for the highest quality medical care.........:salute:

Tribesman

08-10-09, 03:49 PM

Many folks come to this country for health care they cannot receive in their own countries.
Sorry to have to repeat myself. More americans go to out foriegn for health treatment than foriegners come to America .
If you want to hold up health tourism as an example of how good the system is then you need to make a comparrison.
A single hospital in thailand treats almost as many US citizens as health tourists each year as the of whole of the US gets in foriegners coming for health tourism.....not to mention the Indian market which last year got a 30% boost in numbers.
Yet people continue to come to the US for the highest quality medical care.........
I don't know how to break it to ya , but the third world is overtaking you when it comes to both quality and cost.

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 03:53 PM

Which is the truth?

"I think if we get a good public option, it would lead to single payer and that's the best way to reach single payer...I think the best way we're gonna get single payer, the only way, is to have a public option and demonstrate its strength and power." - Rep. Barney Frank (D - Massachusetts)

"What are not legitimate concerns are those being put forward claiming a public option is somehow a Trojan horse for a single-payer system...So, when you hear the naysayers claim that I'm trying to bring about government -run health care, know this - they are not telling the truth." - Prez. Barack Obama

FIREWALL

08-10-09, 03:54 PM

They say Opposites Attract. That's a PantLoad. :haha:

Not when it comes to 2 very different opinions here. :DL

Carotio

08-10-09, 04:23 PM

I'm telling y'all:
This is a discussion neither of you can win. End of story.:stare:

Republicans vs. Democrates
or
Americans vs. Europeans (sorry to leave out Asians and Aussies)

The difference in opinions is too great to meet somewhere in the middle, it seems.
However, imagine if the health care project is made law and established.
You then have two scenarios:
It could actually work for the benifit of a lot of people, and a few would strongly disagree with it nevertheless.
It proves to be a failure, both financially and medically. The opponents can then have their saying: "what did I tell ya..." and get back in power and restore the old system.

But you would never know if you wouldn't try it. Public health care has been an insurance for many people in Europe for years, and though it has its faults, it actually feels good to know that you can get help because you have been paying to it through taxes over years. But of course, I'm also just a socialist European.....:D

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 04:25 PM

The flip flop begins..........Mr. Obama knows he has trouble.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090810/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama

A day before he faces a potentially boisterous town hall in New Hampshire, President Barack Obama praised the spirited debate over his health care plans and predicted "sensible and reasoned arguments" would ultimately prevail in Congress.

FIREWALL

08-10-09, 04:48 PM

They say Opposites Attract. That's a PantLoad. :haha:

Not when it comes to 2 very different opinions here. :DL

bump :)

GoldenRivet

08-10-09, 04:53 PM

You then have two scenarios:
It could actually work for the benifit of a lot of people, and a few would strongly disagree with it nevertheless.
It proves to be a failure, both financially and medically. The opponents can then have their saying: "what did I tell ya..." and get back in power and restore the old system.

I say again...

Medicare is broke

Social Security is broke

Medicaid is broke

What makes anyone think this disaster of a health plan is going to go anywhere?

:06:

im baffled as to how any single American could be for this.

CastleBravo

08-10-09, 05:18 PM

I'm admitedly not the brightest fellow in the world, but I know when I'm getting scr@w*d. And I am by Obama/EU talk.

CaptainHaplo

08-10-09, 05:53 PM

OK - I posted the link to the bill in another thread - so folks can - if they choose - stop throwing talking points and the words of this or that politician and instead deal with what the bill itself says.

Now - lets deal with a couple of issues here. First - the "uninsured". The uninsured are mostly the unemployed or part time employed only. Why do I say that? Because I don't know of a single full time job that doesn't offer at least BASIC health insurance. Even Mickey D's and BK offer health benefits for their full time employees. Fast food places people......

So, lets call this what it is. Its health care for the poorest segments of our society. Ok - but we already have that - its called Medicaid. If you are on welfare, or have an income below a certain amount, you qualify for Federally funded Medicaid. No medical bills at all. So those who are unemployed and part time employed only, do not make enough to be above the CURRENT guidelines for income eligibility. Thus, they should be on Medicaid if they want to have insurance. After all, thats what the program is for. Of course, like any other government run endeavor, its going broke....

Now, there is another segment of people that don't have health care.... the illegal immigrants. Notice they are not excluded from being covered by this great new social program. Why is that do you wonder? Couldn't be a move to further legitimize their status even though they violate the law by their illegal presence inside the country could it? It couldn't be that by legitimizing them, we thus pave the way for further pursuit, so that they can later express their gratitude by voting for those who gave them such benefits... could it? Of course not!

Then we have the elderly. Those old folks on a fixed income... who need this to cover their health care. Right? Well - there is that wonderfully run MEDICARE program that is supposed to do that, but its wallet is empty, and its done horribly at providing for the needs of our seniors.

Thus - we need a "ITS BIGGER - ITS BETTER" plan that will cover EVERYONE that needs it - and ultimately those that dont currently but will be forced by the wording of the bill to do so as time passes, as a way to further squeeze those in society that are actually productive and contributing.

Know why healthcare has become an impersonal business, where your herded in to see the doc, then herded out after your 5 or 10 minutes with them? Because they have a business to run - and they have to have people file insurance forms - dedicated staff just to get paid from the insurance companies. Then they have to make enough to pay those people, keep the office open with all its overhead, and then - the biggest hit - pay their own malpractice insurance. They have to see 5 people an hour to break even pretty much.

Health care will become affordable when three things happen...

#1 Tort reform occurs that makes a doctor or hospital able to afford insurance without having to make his or her business an "assembly line" of patients.

#2 Health care providers have ways of collecting fair recompense for the care they provide, be it from insurance, the patient, or both. Chronic failure to pay means that care can be refused - with the ONLY exception being life threatening situations. Yes - if you have insurance that pays 80 percent and you continually refuse or make no effort to pay the outstanding balance, then break your arm, you should pay up before you get fixed up. If your so poor that you can't pay at all - you would be on Medicaid and not have a bill to start with.

#3 Emergency rooms and ambulatory services have the ability to refuse to treat patients who do not have medical emergencies. There are many reasons to do this. For one, non emergencies create additional waits for emergency cases, thus endangering lives and increasing overall costs. Add in that many use the emergency room as the only doctor they ever see, often not paying afterwards, and you could greatly reduce cost by returning the emergency room to its original purpose.

Kptlt. Neuerburg

08-10-09, 06:16 PM

I agree with Carotio, there are two side to every story and each person thinks it right, resulting in a never ending argument. I support the idea of national heath care, and to those who belive the lie that health care is fine the way it is just wait until you get shafted by the insurance industry only then will your opinion change. Oh and if you do get shafted by the industry don't come here and complane about what happened because it is your own fault for being to stupid to listen to reason.

FIREWALL

08-10-09, 07:13 PM

CaptainHaplo

08-10-09, 08:33 PM

My issue with folks like the poster above (Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg) is for them its an "either/or" solution - either you take this plan - with no discussion of what it really is - OR your some right wing bigot nazi nutcase because private industry will screw you (as if the federal government wont?????).

Instead of dealing with the issue - debating its merits and its flaws - its take it and don't complain. Thats not discourse - thats ramrodding - and its what the American people are not willing to accept. That fact is what is making the extreme left that is pushing this call any who disagree anything they can to disparage them.

FIREWALL

08-10-09, 08:58 PM

August

08-10-09, 09:50 PM

..and get back in power and restore the old system.

Unfortunately socialism, once it becomes entrenched, is extraordinarily difficult to get rid of.

FIREWALL

08-10-09, 09:53 PM

Unfortunately socialism, once it becomes entrenched, is extraordinarily difficult to get rid of.

And the cost immense.

Thomen

08-11-09, 12:04 AM

A little piece from Newbusters regarding the HC Bill, postes roughly an hour ago:

Here (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2009/08/10/fortune-editor-breaks-cnners-obamacare-details-freedoms-lost-inevitable-)

Kptlt. Neuerburg

08-11-09, 03:07 AM

Think of this people the way things are right now in health care in the United States in the way of "general care doctors" i.e. doctors who do checkups,give shots, fix you up after you brake a bone is much less per person now than it has been. There are more doctors who now work as specialists i.e. doctors who do heart transplants,ect,ect, and it all about how much doctors get paid. Doctors care more about how much money they get paid per operation then they do about the well-being of their patients. Personally I find this outrageous. Canada's health care is failing because doctors from there are coming here to become specialists because of the money. And if you want to here about someone getting shafted by the system it happend to my own mother!!!! She worked at Group Health and she became ill to the point that she had to go to the hospital for three weeks and during that time she was fired by Group Health and they did it with giving notice, which is illegal to do in the United States. So then my mother had no insurance so myself and my father had to pay for the time that my mother to stay in the hospital and we didn't have insurance eather. So my own mother who worked for Group Health for four years gets illegally fired and then is left without health insurance, and it was Group Healths fault that she got sick because of mold that was in the roof tiles and Group Health never bothered to fix it and never to this day gave a reason to my mother why she was fired. I call that a good reason to hate the way health care is run in this country. Of course I not tiring to change anyone opinion about this matter, I'm stating the facts as they are. Also its not up to the citizens of America if the health care plan gets passed, thats up to congress. So if it does pass what will all of you naysayers do then? You would more than likely sit there and wine and complane, take it as is(not!!), or back your bags, leave the country and find a nation that still doesn't have a national health care plan.

Carotio

08-11-09, 04:59 AM

Also its not up to the citizens of America if the health care plan gets passed, thats up to congress.

AFAIK, the democrate party have the majority in both chambers now, right? So the odds of this plan not getting realized is very tiny, I suppose....

GoldenRivet

08-11-09, 08:56 AM

Tits not up to the citizens of America if the health care plan gets passed, thats up to congress.

whoa

hold it

:timeout:

wrong.

we the people elect these officials to represent our interests politically. When 76% of the nation opposes the bill, many in congress will receive letters, e mails and phone calls and occasionally personal visits which will indicate this opposition on a large scale.

realizing that the fastest way to shorten your political career is to piss off the voters who put you in office - congress usually goes with the people on these issues.

like i have said.

pass this thing - and congress will successfully piss off 3 out of 4 Americans.

AVGWarhawk

08-11-09, 09:07 AM

GoldenRivet

08-11-09, 09:11 AM

Simple solution:

1. Have the government build clinics or facelift existing building (shovel ready stimulus:doh:) These clinics are for the uninsured or those on the Government Healthcare Plan.

2. Leave me the hell out of it physically and financially.

I could go for that.

August

08-11-09, 09:14 AM

AVGWarhawk

08-11-09, 09:19 AM

Your first solution is makes the second impossible. If government builds it you and I will be paying for it.

Nope, the people who want the government healthcare plan can pay for it through premiums. Just like you and I pay for doctors and hospitals with our premiums. They can have their own government run clinic now. Just as I choice hospitals and doctors they are free to do the same with the government run facilities.

Tchocky

08-11-09, 09:22 AM

That's really inefficient.

Why have duplication of hospitals, doctors, nurses, and equipment on grounds of insurance?

AVGWarhawk

08-11-09, 09:32 AM

That's really inefficient.

Why have duplication of hospitals, doctors, nurses, and equipment on grounds of insurance?

Nope, stimulus. Shovel ready. More jobs for dr, nurses and administrative. All in the name of stimulus. Besides, do you think the current standing clinics and hospitals can handle more people? Hell no.

GoldenRivet

08-11-09, 09:35 AM

not really a duplication... just do this...

1. in every town of 40,000 residents or more, place a government clinic.

2. if the population of the town warrants more government clinics, place more.

3. I will continue to pay my normal premiums to my insurance company, and i will go to the top notch, well maintained, clean facility im used to going to and receive the same high quality of care im used to from stubbed toe to pancreatic cancer and every ailment in between.

4. government insurance card holders can pay their bottom dollar premium to the federal government and visit one of these clinics for health care.

5. in the case of traumatic emergency, immediate life threatening emergency, or serious injury - private hospitals can accept the government policy holders.

6. for reasons of common illness, vaccinations, physicals, check ups, blood work, broken bones, long term cancer care, etc etc the government clinics can be used.

mookiemookie

08-11-09, 10:03 AM

3. I will continue to pay my normal premiums to my insurance company, and i will go to the top notch, well maintained, clean facility im used to going to and receive the same high quality of care im used to from stubbed toe to pancreatic cancer and every ailment in between.

:haha::har: And then, faced with the prospect of you actually making use of your coverage, the insurance company drops you with some flimsy excuse, leaving you stuck with the bill.

You think you have insurance. 70% of the people who declared bankruptcy due to medical bills had insurance at the time:

http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study/Bankruptcy-2009.pdf

AVGWarhawk

08-11-09, 10:13 AM

:haha::har: And then, faced with the prospect of you actually making use of your coverage, the insurance company drops you with some flimsy excuse, leaving you stuck with the bill.

You think you have insurance. 70% of the people who declared bankruptcy due to medical bills had insurance at the time:

http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study/Bankruptcy-2009.pdf

Does not mean that you will still avoid bankruptcy under this Obama plan either now does it? Mookie, what color are the lenses in your glasses?

mookiemookie

08-11-09, 10:20 AM

Does not mean that you will still avoid bankruptcy under this Obama plan either now does it? Mookie, what color are the lenses in your glasses?

I have never ever claimed that this plan was the best plan, or that I even like this plan. :up:

Ishmael

08-11-09, 10:40 AM

I've been out of work for three years now and caring for my semi-invalid wife. We have no health care at all. So here's what happens if I get sick:

I Die!

Also, considering the bulk of my wife's health care problems were caused BY the treatment they gave her for Hep C that DIDN'T cure the disease, my personal take is that I'm perfectly capable of dying on my own. I don't need the "Health Care System" to do it for me while it bankrupts me further. However, I HAVE come up with a way to answer these people who shout down the town halls:

I've been propagating this idea since the first reports of these loudmouths surfaced. This is what I'M doing at my Town Hall on 8/22.

I'm bringing a big bag of Lollipops to hand out to RW loudmouths. My slogans:

Suckers for Suckers!

If you're going to be a Sucker for the Republican Party, at least HAVE a Sucker.

Democrats will GIVE you Suckers instead of PLAYING you FOR Suckers!

I heartily urge all my fellow Progressives to do the same at THEIR Town Halls.

think of the TV images. RW loudmouths screaming while peaceful progressives hand them Suckers. Let the Nation SEE who the REAL Suckers are.

FIREWALL

08-11-09, 10:56 AM

No politicion in his right mind, Dem or Rep is going to go against the, AMA, Pharmicutical co's, Insurance co's, AARP,
and the majority of the citizens of the USA.

BO might be satified with one term but, Professional Politicions look alot farther down the road.

AVGWarhawk

08-11-09, 10:57 AM

I have never ever claimed that this plan was the best plan, or that I even like this plan. :up:

But you sure do love supporting it. :03:

GoldenRivet

08-11-09, 11:00 AM

:haha::har: And then, faced with the prospect of you actually making use of your coverage, the insurance company drops you with some flimsy excuse, leaving you stuck with the bill.

You think you have insurance. 70% of the people who declared bankruptcy due to medical bills had insurance at the time:

http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study/Bankruptcy-2009.pdf

why is it that you pretend to know my personal information?

YOU dont know how much or how little insurance i have.

why would you make such a comment? you have know clue as to what my plan is, what my co-pay is, what my level of coverage is?

did you miss the part where $29,100 of my wife's $30,000 annual Lovenox Injections are covered? :doh:

get real dude

mookiemookie

08-11-09, 11:03 AM

But you sure do love supporting it. :03:

Not really. I think if there's going to be a debate, people need to debate reality. When people start going off about the bill including roving death squads who are euthanizing the elderly, it just tickles me to call people out on their BS.

It's like people are unable to unwilling to have an honest conversation about things, so they rely on shouting the opposition down and creating their own vision completely removed from reality of what the plan entails. Neither of which accomplish anything.

why is it that you pretend to know my personal information?

YOU dont know how much or how little insurance i have.

why would you make such a comment? you have know clue as to what my plan is, what my co-pay is, what my level of coverage is?

did you miss the part where $29,100 of my wife's $30,000 annual Lovenox Injections are covered? :doh:

get real dude

Sorry if I got personal. I do try and avoid that. My bad.

I was just trying to make the point that many people who have insurance see it dropped when something serious happens.

TDK1044

08-11-09, 11:03 AM

I can't think of anything that the Goverment runs well, so why would anyone in their right mind trust them with their health?

What we're going to see is more and more people turning up at hospital Emergency Rooms, a lot of whom don't need to be there.

The Government will then try and treat everyone and quickly discover that it's not possible. Then there will be endless committees and sub committees of not very smart people who were educated in Goverment schools, and they will decide who gets treatment and who doesn't based on flawed criterian, age, and pre existing conditions.

At this point, we'll be where the UK was 30 years ago.

Who knows, maybe they'll let us trade in our 85 year old Grannies for $4500 as long as she doesn't leak oil on the floor.

Change you can believe in. :DL

Sea Demon

08-11-09, 11:07 AM

Democrats will GIVE you Suckers instead of PLAYING you FOR Suckers!

I heartily urge all my fellow Progressives to do the same at THEIR Town Halls.

think of the TV images. RW loudmouths screaming while peaceful progressives hand them Suckers. Let the Nation SEE who the REAL Suckers are.

I think you may be shocked that not everybody against Obamacare at these townhalls are "RW loudmouths" as you say. Many are also Democrats that are becoming lukewarm to the idea of government run health care after seeing exactly what's in the plan. You want to know why many are so upset? Many of these people are livid because the Democrat political class is passing these costly bills with almost no debate. Heck these Democrats can't even be bothered to read what's in it or understand any of it with all the rush to push it through. Many people of all political stripes also see the problems with government assuming this vital 20% of our economy where there is no need to fix things that way. Many people don't see a need for the government to screw with their current health plans to fix what's wrong in other areas. In fact, 7 out of 10 are happy with what they currently got.

So, the Democrats aren't playing you for a sucker, huh? I beg to strongly differ. Is it only these fringe Republican "mobs" that oppose their healthcare reform? Nope. Funny thing is the Quinnipiac poll yesterday found that support for healthcare reform among independent voters is down. And the President is in free fall in the polls. This ain't "right-wing extremists" here. We are talking about moderate, independent voters who arguably gave Barack Obama the edge in the election. But finally, the lightbulb has come on in their heads.

Really, who is getting suckered here? If you're worried about dying, or denied/delayed care, Obamacare should make you shudder. The House Democrat version has some truly scary stuff in it. Go ahead and pass out lollipops......the tide is against this stuff at this point.

August

08-11-09, 11:11 AM

AVGWarhawk

08-11-09, 11:14 AM

Go ahead and pass out lollipops......the tide is against this stuff at this point.

No healthy to hand out lollipop. Hand out carrots.

Sea Demon

08-11-09, 11:17 AM

Not really. I think if there's going to be a debate, people need to debate reality. When people start going off about the bill including roving death squads who are euthanizing the elderly, it just tickles me to call people out on their BS.

Oh yeah, that's the same as the conspiracy of "evil" insurance companies plotting to drop everyone's coverage once they show up at the hospital and call their provider. Yes, please debate reality. The bill doesn't speak of "roving death squads". But it clearly dilineates the government interceding in "end of life" circumstances. Sorry, but I don't want any bureacrat determining my end of life circumstance. No thanks.

What you don't get mookie is the people in this country see the huge deficits coming with this stuff. They know instinctively that Barack Obama cannot promise more and more health care to more and more people with fewer doctors and nurses and NOT resort to rationing and higher taxes. We don't like it ... and we're speaking out. Get used to it. And while you're at it, understand that you are responsible for your own health care. Not me or the taxpayers.

roman2440

08-11-09, 11:41 AM

I agree with others who have said that they agree that the current healthcare system in the US needs reform

I also agree that this plan is not the way to go. Sure it'll bring about 'change', change that will make us more like slaves to the government (on knees like a little orphan saying "please sir can I have some more").

Now I realize that some of the concepts in the bill are good. What I don't understand is why this reform has to come as a total transformation all at once? Why can't we take some of the smaller good ideas and put them in practice seperately?

For instance the incentivization of hospitals towards fixing the problem (i.e. payout via readmitance rating). What prevents us from passing this today? I'll tell you why, if you take all the good ideas out of the bill you can't pass all the pork the politians want you to buy.

mookiemookie

08-11-09, 12:06 PM

Oh yeah, that's the same as the conspiracy of "evil" insurance companies plotting to drop everyone's coverage once they show up at the hospital and call their provider.

They do and the practice is encouraged. THAT is reality: http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/17/business/fi-rescind17

The bill doesn't speak of "roving death squads". But it clearly dilineates the government interceding in "end of life" circumstances. Sorry, but I don't want any bureacrat determining my end of life circumstance. No thanks.You're sadly misinformed. From the bill itself: "such consultation shall include the following: An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to; an explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses; an explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy." Of course this is not mandatory. The services are covered if you desire to make use of it. How you people take this to mean government assisted suicide is beyond me.

And while you're at it, understand that you are responsible for your own health care. Not me or the taxpayers.Sorry if I don't buy into the "screw you - I got mine!" attitude when our society is being choked to death by corporations putting their profits before our health and welfare.

AVGWarhawk

08-11-09, 12:19 PM

Sorry if I don't buy into the "screw you - I got mine!" attitude when our society is being choked to death by corporations putting their profits before our health and welfare.

Well sir, please explain to me why I need to give you what's mine? Something I went out and obtained. Explain to me how you feel you are entitled? I lost on this point.

mookiemookie

08-11-09, 12:25 PM

Well sir, please explain to me why I need to give you what's mine? Something I went out and obtained. Explain to me how you feel you are entitled? I lost on this point.

Because I'd much rather have my tax dollars going to help our own society rather than going to health insurance companies who don't care about me, or better yet, to buy bombs to drop on Iraq.

Sailor Steve

08-11-09, 12:26 PM

And that's the problem with modern American society - the inherent gap between 'Individual Liberty' and 'Promote the General Welfare'. On the one hand it can be argued that for civilization to survive we need to take care of those of us who can't take care of themselves. On the other we have the very real difference between convincing people that they should help and forcing them to do what you think is right by simply taking what you think is appropriate.

The answer to that question? Good luck finding one.

FIREWALL

08-11-09, 12:37 PM

AVGWarhawk

08-11-09, 12:45 PM

Because I'd much rather have my tax dollars going to help our own society rather than going to health insurance companies who don't care about me, or better yet, to buy bombs to drop on Iraq.

Hmmmm.......I have had 3 collapsed lungs and a hernia operation. All covered. Bills paid. I have two children. Birth right through immunizations and health checks without a hitch. My wife had nasal surgery. Plus other lesser problems such as tendonitis, etc. No one has dropped me for anything! Even a recurring collapsed lung problem. My dad with recurring heart problems has not been dropped. Both my mother-in-law and father-in-law died of cancer but they were covered right to the end. I know of no one dropped like a bad habit when it comes to insurance other that auto.

mookiemookie

08-11-09, 12:45 PM

Drop bombs on Iraq ? What kinda Drugs are you on ?

You bounce around like a Skitzo.

You are about WHACKO !!!

Thank you for your mature, well-reasoned and valuable contribution to this thread.

Takeda Shingen

08-11-09, 01:08 PM

Onkel Neal

08-11-09, 01:11 PM

Not really. I think if there's going to be a debate, people need to debate reality. When people start going off about the bill including roving death squads who are euthanizing the elderly, it just tickles me to call people out on their BS.

Boy, do I agree with that :up:
EDIT: Of course, I think there were/are plenty of people spewing BS about the Bush administration, let's call BS on them too :)

They know instinctively that Barack Obama cannot promise more and more health care to more and more people with fewer doctors and nurses and NOT resort to rationing and higher taxes. We don't like it ... and we're speaking out. Get used to it. And while you're at it, understand that you are responsible for your own health care. Not me or the taxpayers.

Ultimately, I think that is where govt run health care will end up. Same as Social Security. After a generation it will be a failed enterprise in need of perpetual bailouts.

Sea Demon

08-11-09, 01:19 PM

They do and the practice is encouraged. THAT is reality: http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/17/business/fi-rescind17

I don't think you read page two of that article that shows Wellpoint's response to the fraud and abuse exposed. I hold out judgement on the other case until it's known exactly why some of the rescissions occured. My 2 year old daughter who had hip dysplasia just had over $70,000 worth of bills from our insurance covered through Blue Cross with no problems or rescission. Real world case....real world experience. And no problems with receiving care.

You're sadly misinformed. From the bill itself: Of course this is not mandatory. The services are covered if you desire to make use of it. How you people take this to mean government assisted suicide is beyond me.There's more to it than that. There is a concern to the effect of rationing due rto rising costs. Actually it's inevitable. And most people have figured out that soaring deficits will force the issue. The elderly are figuring this out quickly. It's not roving death squads, but the concern is costs, and shortages forcing the inevitable. Most people with some economic sense can figure this one out pretty easily. Also I think you need to go back and read pages 239 and 427 again. It's pretty ominous stuff there.

Some of us don't want bureacrats involved at any point in our health care at all? It's a disaster in the making. Looks like 57% oppose the current Democrat approach. And only 32% want single payer.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/32_favor_single_payer_health_care_57_oppose

Sorry if I don't buy into the "screw you - I got mine!" attitude when our society is being choked to death by corporations putting their profits before our health and welfare.I didn't always "have mine". I had to work, plan and prioritize for it. But it is a question of when you think you are responsible for your own life. Do you think the taxpayers owe you a car mookie? If not...why not. You probably need some form of transportation to get to a job or get to your government provided doctor. Right? How about auto insurance? Should taxpayers pony up for your auto insurance...because as you know...you're just one collision away from bankruptcy possibly. How about the taxpayer owing you free food and vitamins for your health? Gotta eat right? Can't work without nutrition. Do you think the taxpayers should also throw you Universal housing? If not...why not? The issue is, at what point are you responsible for yourself mookie?

Sea Demon

08-11-09, 01:23 PM

Ultimately, I think that is where govt run health care will end up. Same as Social Security. After a generation it will be a failed enterprise in need of perpetual bailouts.

And unfortunately, your grandkids and mine will someday have to pay for this mess in the making. In more ways than one. The people who want this aren't thinking of any of that. They simply want others to pay for what they should be providing for themselves.

TDK1044

08-11-09, 01:41 PM

August

08-11-09, 02:14 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v60/flyfish/littlebigtownhalls.jpg

:D

Onkel Neal

08-11-09, 02:32 PM

Anyone see it? Maybe you caught some news on it?

The topic was health care reform. Very interesting. Man, this guy is persuasive.

SteamWake

08-11-09, 02:50 PM

Only thing I heard was that people were bussed in from around the state to fill the audiance.

As to the content dont know havent heard/read anything yet so Ill reserve comment.

Takeda Shingen

08-11-09, 03:04 PM

FIREWALL

08-11-09, 03:51 PM

Thank you for your mature, well-reasoned and valuable contribution to this thread.

Thank You. :D You could try doing the same. :salute:

geetrue

08-11-09, 04:31 PM

I keep sitting here thinking a picture is going to pop up or something ...

I don't see a link ... are you talking about a town hall meeting held in New Hampshire in 2008 before the election?

SteamWake

08-11-09, 04:41 PM

No the one he had today Tuesday 08-11-09 in the afternoon while most people were at work :hmmm:

Hey Neal Im not so sure how persuasive this is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XTi-WdOu2s&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebreitbart%2Etv%2Fobama%2Di ts%2Dthe%2Dpost%2Doffice%2Dthats%2Dalways%2Dhaving %2Dproblems%2F&feature=player_embedded

SteamWake

08-11-09, 04:49 PM

Onkel Neal

08-11-09, 06:15 PM

Haha, yeah, I caught that part. "It's the post office that's always having problems." :haha: Ermm...the post office... not a good example. They are the govt. run company.

I bet he wishes he had that one back.

But, overall, he answered a lot of questions about "universal" and "single payer" solutions. If he's sincere. He has the votes in Congress, I don't see how this is not going to happen in one shape or another. We're moving closer to a nanny state, and the majority rules. It will be a mess for our grandkids to deal with, no doubt.

nikimcbee

08-11-09, 06:20 PM

Haha, yeah, I caught that part. "It's the post office that's always having problems." :haha: Ermm...the post office... not a good example. They are the govt. run company.

open mouth, insert foot.:haha:. How did he get elected again? What a dope.:doh:

Onkel Neal

08-11-09, 06:20 PM

CaptainHaplo

08-11-09, 06:37 PM

Ok Mookie - I am calling you out on this one. You said you wanted a rational debate on the merits of the bill. I challenged you in quoting from the bill on the matter of private insurers being forced out due to the requirement in the bill that any entity offering insurance other than the government must take a loss defined by the government. You have avoided a response. Not found a talking point that has relevance?

mookiemookie

08-11-09, 06:39 PM

CaptainHaplo

08-11-09, 06:45 PM

That happens - and I am glad to see your open to the discussion.

You can find the issue here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1148052&postcount=8

SteamWake

08-11-09, 07:38 PM

And you're right about it being held when most people are at work. I'm currently unemployed, so I got to see it.

Well then that makes you the target audiance. Doom and despair and all that.

Desperate times call for desperat measures something must be done and done NOW... and all that.

What did they say "Never let a good crisis go to waste" ?

It was a 'stacked' audiance but you cant really cavetch about that a republican would have done the same thing. But to call it a town hall meeting is a bit of a stretch.

geetrue

08-11-09, 08:39 PM

September/October are going to be a couple of hot months in the US Congress ...

They have the party, but they don't have the votes to pass anything that resembles a health care bill that a majority of Americans can all agree on.

The debate on this is getting hotter, not in here, but in town hall meetings, CNN, radio talk shows, stupid pass around emails misinforming and informing others of what they think is getting a lot of attention.

If anything gets passed it will be so lukewarm it will have to be recalled to fix it or just go ahead and put it on the back shelf.

Get everybody back to work :yep:

Onkel Neal

08-11-09, 09:49 PM

Yeah, I probably am the intended audience: baby boomer, middle class, unemployed. I jes don't scare that easily :)

It may have been a stacked audience, it's hard to tell these days with extremists on both sides.

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/g-cvr-090811-specter-707p.grid-4x2.jpg
No matter what the issue, I detest hysterical people. :down:

I'm just glad Sarah Palin wasn't there.

GoldenRivet

08-11-09, 10:35 PM

hysterical? maybe

however i can sympathize with the guy

I have only spent about 20 of my 30 years really watching this country go to hell one piece at a time. Be sold up the river one piece at a time. the politics grow uglier and the divide grows more and more vast each year i gaze upon it.

he has spent perhaps 50 years watching it happen.

nothing is more vehement and charged than the citizens of a free democracy who feel they have lost their voice.

of late, especially, congress has been ignoring the majority on some key issues.

such a tuning out is most unwise.

we must always remember that Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

such consent... i feel... is waning.

the thing about divided nations... the division is critical at 50/50.

look at nearly any poll on any issue and you can see how close we are to this critical mass.

Zachstar

08-11-09, 11:47 PM

Go read Ayn Rand then.

Aramike

08-12-09, 03:24 AM

Obama should recall Food Stamps and issue 'Health Stamps' instead. At least then I won't have to stand behind a 300 pound woman at the grocery store, who is talking on her i phone while paying for her cookies and cigarettes with her Food Stamps.

If I'm going to pay for her health care, her fat ass can eat less and exercise more!:haha:

Ironically/sadly enough, I ran into this exact problem today.

Heh, one other time I was behind a woman and her boyfriend (I'm guessing) trailing 5 kids, buying about $18 worth of groceries. She was digging through her purse, unable to find her Quest card (our version of foodstamps), and her boyfriend mentioned that she could just pay with her $50 bill instead. She replied: "Hell no! I'm takin' that money to Potowatami!"

Potowatami is our local casino.

I couldn't help myself from saying audibly that I'm glad our taxpayer dollars are funding her gambling.

Carotio

08-12-09, 05:17 AM

No matter what the issue, I detest hysterical people. :down:.

I just watched a program of The Daily Show yesterday, probably a couple of days old, but still... they made fun of those extremists yelling: "Obama scares us" or something. Just the look of the face of Jon Stewart afterwards made it all worth.... :har:

Carotio

08-12-09, 05:21 AM

I have only spent about 20 of my 30 years really watching this country go to hell one piece at a time. Be sold up the river one piece at a time. the politics grow uglier and the divide grows more and more vast each year i gaze upon it.
he has spent perhaps 50 years watching it happen.
nothing is more vehement and charged than the citizens of a free democracy who feel they have lost their voice.

Beautifully in a democracy, you, that guy and everybody else then have the choice to run as candidate for a politically career and see if you can do it better.... :yeah:

Tchocky

08-12-09, 05:23 AM

Transcript here - http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/11/obama_new_hampshire_town_hall_health_care_transcri pt_97848.html

Onkel Neal

08-12-09, 08:43 AM

SteamWake

08-12-09, 09:50 AM

"Bad Behaviour" is exactly what the proponents of this bill want to portray.

I know its hard to keep your temper and patience when you feel like no one is listening to your point of view but throwing a tantrum... or worse is not going to help the cause.

I understand that the unions are sending pepole out to these town hall meetings. I very much believe they are trying to provoke aggressive reactions to 'prove' that its nothing but a bunch of right wing nut jobs. Dont give them the satisfaction.

sharkbit

08-12-09, 09:53 AM

Good article in the Washington Post 8/7/09 by Charles Krauthammer about health care:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/06/AR2009080602933.html

Echoes a lot of what Golden Rivet has been saying.

:)

Onkel Neal

08-12-09, 10:13 AM

That doesn't surprise me, that the left would send union members out to provoke opponents to the President's plan.

One other part of the meeting that caught my attention was

Mr. President, you've been quoted over the years -- when you were a senator and perhaps even before then -- that you were essentially a supporter of a universal plan. I'm beginning to see that you're changing that. Do you honestly believe that? Because that is my concern. I'm on Medicare, but I still worry that if we go to a public option, period, that the private companies, the insurance companies, rather than competing -- because who can compete with the government; the answer is nobody. So my question is do you still -- as yourself, now -- support a universal plan? Or are you open to the private industry still being maintained?

to which he responded:

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think it's an excellent question, so I appreciate the chance to respond. First of all, I want to make a distinction between a universal plan versus a single-payer plan, because those are two different things.

A single-payer plan would be a plan like Medicare for all, or the kind of plan that they have in Canada, where basically government is the only person -- is the only entity that pays for all health care. Everybody has a government-paid-for plan, even though in, depending on which country, the doctors are still private or the hospitals might still be private. In some countries, the doctors work for the government and the hospitals are owned by the government. But the point is, is that government pays for everything, like Medicare for all. That is a single-payer plan.

I have not said that I was a single-payer supporter because, frankly, we historically have had a employer-based system in this country with private insurers, and for us to transition to a system like that I believe would be too disruptive. So what would end up happening would be, a lot of people who currently have employer-based health care would suddenly find themselves dropped, and they would have to go into an entirely new system that had not been fully set up yet. And I would be concerned about the potential destructiveness of that kind of transition.
All right? So I'm not promoting a single-payer plan.

Am I mistaken when I say I have heard him say in the past that he thought employer based plans should/would be phased out over 10 years? That doesn't jive with what he said yesterday. :hmmm: