The proposed health care bill thread (merged)

[GoldenRivet]

Told ya not to feed the troll GR, but you didn't listen... He's not interested in having an actual friendly conversation with anyone. Notice how he answers every question with another question. That'a sure sign that all he want's to do is play gotcha games.

yes...

plucking out the questions he either lacks the knowledge or intelligence to answer - so he simply counters them with another question.... sometimes, in fact frequently the question has no bearing on the "discussion".

simple fact is that the supreme court has ruled in the past that Congress does not have the authority to require American Citizens to purchase a good or service.

it is a breach of constitution.

congress has acted contrary to the constitution by passing the bill.

The president has acted contrary to the consitution by signing it.

and there are a large number of states prepared to take this to the supreme court... where, God willing it will be overturned.

if and when that is the case, it is my opinion that any officials (President included) who have acted contrary to the constitution should be impeached or asked to resign.

against my better judgment ill give tribesman one last remark

For decades they have been giving money to Chevrolet(GM) and encouraging people to buy their products

Now you understand, Tribesman, congratulations.

they can encourage the sh*t out of us

but they do not have the authority to require

ever since Obama took office he has been mandating to the citizens... requiring them to do business with GM (through $800B in tax payer allowances - one step short of requiring us to buy their products) and now requiring us to do business with the insurance companies.

[AVGWarhawk]

GR, yes, what was done was completely illegal. In short, the Constitution was used to finish up the paperwork in the bathroom. Sad really. We have in the past seen state sue the government on the same type grounds. We will see with this one. For the love of God, I wish Pelosi would just go away....

[tater]

This bill sucks, big time.

Note that the dems want to repeal all the medicare cuts they've been canceling each year. For docs, this is good, and how the (very left, BTW) AMA was bought (AMA is a fraction of doctors, maybe 20%). It's good because even without cuts, specialist docs lose money on every Medicare patient. Not lose income—which would be getting paid $70 when private pays $100, and saying "I lost $30 to see medicare." I mean lost actual cash. You get paid $70, and your COST to see that patient (rent, and employee wages, etc) is $100. So you actually get paid ZERO as the doc, and get to pay $30 for the privilege of seeing the patient. Medicaid is FAR worse than that. The AMA guys are more in the "medicine" camp (not surgical), and tend to be GPs, and other primary care docs—they have much smaller cost of sales, so medicare can be OK for them.

This bill increases the rolls of those programs. That is an incentive to cease accepting medicare/medicaid patients. In addition, providers need to secure contracts with real insurance to get paid MORE to offset losses due to seeing people on government care. This bill can only decrease access and raise insurance premiums on those already paying—someone has to pay, docs will not be able to see patients if they lose money on every visit. They cannot see patients even if they break even, they still need to have an income themselves.

With the 21% cut in medicare, my wife's practice was going to not see medicare any more at all. Also, some private plans claimed they would cut as well to keep some offset vs medicare. They'd find themselves having to airlift patients to another state in that case at a far greater expense (since they'd simply cancel the contract and leave that plan swinging in the breeze with zero docs), so they'd deal. Bottom line is that everyone with insurance subsidizes those already on government care in addition to their taxes.

Obama claimed that people would see their premiums drop by $2500/year for a family. LOL. Let me know how that works out for ya, I won't hold my breath.

The bottom line is that the only solutions to "bending the cost curve down"—which was Obama's stated purpose in going into health care reform—are not in the bill at all—except maybe rationing of care. That will indeed cut costs, and it's great as long as the person denied care isn't YOU, but just mortality stats.

While end of life care is the huge majority of total health expense (over 90% of lifetime costs!), it is also ultimately ineffective—or it'd not be "end of life" would it? But that is only half-true. Say you are a 35 YO mom or dad. You have cancer, and at great expense they buy you 3 years, then you die. With no treatment you'd have lived a year. What are those 2 years with your kids worth? Actuarially, they spent hundreds of thousands, and you are still a mortality stat—so to the bean counters that money was wasted. To your kids, and extra couple years with mommy is worth what again?

THAT is what you'll lose when they start the rationing, and that is the ONLY mechanism they have to deal with costs.

At least with private insurance you can fight, try that vs "city hall."

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah but tater...to the common person it is ALL FREE. That is the only magical word anyone hears....FREE. We know it is not free and the bill has so many holes and ramification it is not even funny. Yet we see the likes of Obama, Reid and Pelosi just trying to be in the history books for generations to come. This is legislation is not over by a long shot.

[SteamWake]

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh312/UlteriorModem/Corruption.jpg (http://s259.photobucket.com/albums/hh312/UlteriorModem/?action=view&current=Corruption.jpg)

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Dear republicans,

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.
You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate energy policy.
You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.
You didn't get mad when the Pentagon misplaced $2.3 tril...lion.
You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.
You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.
You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.
You didn't get mad when you saw the abu ghraib photos.
You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people
You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.
You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.
You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.
You didn't get mad when we let a major US city drown.
You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.
You didn't get mad when the debt went up $5 trillion under Bush.
You finally got mad when.. when... wait for it... when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all ok with you but helping other Americans...That is all.

[tater]

Dear republicans,

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.

The recount was cherry picking, and the nefarious aspects were the challenger who lost doing so. The other side wanted a non-cherry picked. Regardless, 1 year later, the newspapers counted everything possible, and Gore lost in every possible scenario they tried, even the partial, cherry-picked recounts that Gore wanted (with optimistic "chad" counting).

You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate energy policy.

Making such policy is what the executive does. Clinton did the same, or did you forget Enron was his pal, too?

You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.

She was not covert. You can, as they say, indict a ham sandwich, yet the charges were NOT for outing anyone, as there was no crime committed there since she was NOT covert. In addition, she was using her government position to secure a job for her husband at taxpayer expense (nepotism), AND for internal political interference vs the WH but suborning him to make false reports. Outing her should have been a "whistlerblower" condition, regardless.

You didn't get mad when the Pentagon misplaced $2.3 tril...lion.

Huh?

You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.

With almost total Democratic support. That's called democracy.

You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.

Nor did the overwhelming majority of democrats who also voted to do this.

You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.

Not illegal, it was voted on (multiple times, as in every single year to fund it). It continued to be supported with money under democratic majorities.

You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.

10 billion? How many billion per hour has Obama wasted so far on political payoffs?

You didn't get mad when you saw the abu ghraib photos.

Actually, everybody was POed at that, and the perps were tried. Personally, I found it odd that a case already being prosecuted, where the principal crime was humiliating people had the images shown again and again on the news—increasing the humiliation of the victims for partisan, political reasons. Try them? Yes! Show the pictures constantly? That's like trying someone for taking embarrassing, nude pictures of women that no one but the perp ever saw, then allowing the pictures to be published.

You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people


We were not. Read the GC, torture requires "severe" physical hardship. It's intentionally gray, and back when written, every single cop on earth beat people up in interrogation rooms. That was SOP. The very first US POW in WW2 was interrogated with a hammer back .45 pointed at his head.

You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.

Not illegal, and only Americans on the phone with known or suspected terrorists abroad. Or Does any citizen at large have the Right to unfettered communications with OBL?

You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.


Huh? I'm pissed, myself.

You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.

PLenty did.

You didn't get mad when we let a major US city drown.

I was pissed at the lack of preparedness even though the State officials practiced this, including a major exercise the year before for almost the exact scenario. Actually, that exercise resulted in presumed deaths of almost 50,000 people, so the actual number of dead was far better than the exercise they did. You can read about the exercise in national geographic, actually.

You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.

Many of us did. Adding another trillion or two in under a year also pissed me off. If you LIKE Obama's trillions, they you liked the previous trillions, right?

You didn't get mad when the debt went up $5 trillion under Bush.

It went up wat too much, but not 5 trillion, sorry. According to the CBO, it was 3319.6 billion in 2001, and by 2008 it was 5803.1. That's 2483 billion.

In one year alone Obama did 1741, lol.

You finally got mad when.. when... wait for it... when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all ok with you but helping other Americans...

You clearly have not looked at the bill passed. It did not create a right to see a doctor (which everyone has always had, nothing stopped anyone). The bill does NOT help anyone. It raises taxes, raises premiums, and decreases care. Be sure.

[GoldenRivet]

Kapitan Phillips,

How do you know we didnt get mad at those things? this is just an example of the left or right playing off sides against one another

Its like i told a democrat friend of mine earlier - as he is also upset about this bill.

"The republicans and Democrats hold office in Washington DC... you and i are front line Americans who have to put up with their crap..."

point being, when you dont get the political agendas involved... i think that the American people pretty much see eye to eye on a lot of issues.

for example, i agree with a lot of reasons for health care reform.

i dont agree with the mandate.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Kapitan Phillips,

How do you know we didnt get mad at those things?

That's why it was a quote.

[AVGWarhawk]

tater :yeah:

[SteamWake]

Dingle sums things up for you...

http://www.breitbart.tv/shocking-audio-rep-dingell-says-obamacare-will-eventually-control-the-people

[OneToughHerring]

Actually, everybody was POed at that, and the perps were tried. Personally, I found it odd that a case already being prosecuted, where the principal crime was humiliating people had the images shown again and again on the news—increasing the humiliation of the victims for partisan, political reasons. Try them? Yes! Show the pictures constantly? That's like trying someone for taking embarrassing, nude pictures of women that no one but the perp ever saw, then allowing the pictures to be published.

Sure you were "POed" at that. And I can understand why you would be against the showing of those photos.

We were not. Read the GC, torture requires "severe" physical hardship. It's intentionally gray, and back when written, every single cop on earth beat people up in interrogation rooms. That was SOP. The very first US POW in WW2 was interrogated with a hammer back .45 pointed at his head.

Oh, if it's in "GC" it's ok. Every cop in US, you mean.

[August]

Oh, if it's in "GC" it's ok.

GC = Geneva Convention. What did you think it meant?

[OneToughHerring]

GC = Geneva Convention. What did you think it meant?

I think it means his interpretation of it. Where in the Geneva Convention are the all (not just water torture) forms of torture that the US has used condoned?

[August]

I think it means his interpretation of it. Where in the Geneva Convention are the all (not just water torture) forms of torture that the US has used condoned?

That may be but I think your posts are torture too, however the "GC" doesn't specifically ban them either.

[OneToughHerring]

That may be but I think your posts are torture too, however the "GC" doesn't specifically ban them either.

Well you've already banned free speech through Homeland Security etc. so it's not like you're a stranger to fascism.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well you've already banned free speech through Homeland Security etc. so it's not like you're a stranger to fascism.


Where did you get that notion? Was it the folks voicing protests on the mall in DC this past weekend?

[August]

Where did you get that notion? Was it the folks voicing protests on the mall in DC this past weekend?

It wasn't shown on Finn Pravda TV so it didn't happen. :yep:

[Tribesman]

I think you are bit ahead of yourself in stating there will be less traffic in the ER now that people can get a family doctor. That would have to be studied after said medical plans have commenced. It would require many years of study as well.
I know, I was just going off the forcasts KaiserHealth produced in the short time between the paperwork being published and the vote taking place.

Told ya not to feed the troll GR, but you didn't listen...
Its you that is being a troll August.
He's not interested in having an actual friendly conversation with anyone. Notice how he answers every question with another question. That'a sure sign that all he want's to do is play gotcha games.
What a strange mind you have. Questions are a way of exploring the topic and expanding on the reasoning behind it. Is that too hard for you to understand?

Now you understand, Tribesman, congratulations.

they can encourage the sh*t out of us

but they do not have the authority to require

Really, so they didn't haver the authority to take all that tax money and give it to GM.
simple fact is that the supreme court has ruled in the past that Congress does not have the authority to require American Citizens to purchase a good or service.

So what about motor insurance, business insurance, public liability insurance can the government not be making laws about people requiring them?

Yeah but tater...to the common person it is ALL FREE. That is the only magical word anyone hears....FREE.
Thats where a problem arises, things like this rapidly become popular no matter how badly screwed up the actual details are.
Just look at the protesters who wanted the government out of healthcare...but don't mess with the government healthcare they get

[Aramike]

You finally got mad when.. when... wait for it... when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick.Who's mad about that? That right has been in place for decades.

Will the liberal who doesn't have to employ spin to make the healthcare bill sound reasonable please stand up?

[AVGWarhawk]

Thats where a problem arises, things like this rapidly become popular no matter how badly screwed up the actual details are.
Just look at the protesters who wanted the government out of healthcare...but don't mess with the government healthcare they get

What government healthcare do they get sir? With exception of medicad/medicare for the elderly there is nothing else. These people protesting do not want to lose what they have and worked for all their lives. Private health insurance. It is not government provided healthcare they are looking to save for themselves. Even so the actual details OTH is witnessed on the news tonight. An elderly couple in this plan will pay $700.00 less next year on medications. You think, great, however the premium on the healthcare itself will go up. THERE IS NO SAVINGS! NONE! The perscription savings is offset by the premium increase. Welcome to smoke and mirrors. :shifty:



So what about motor insurance, business insurance, public liability insurance can the government not be making laws about people requiring them?



Only motor vehicle insurance is required by the state of Maryland. It does not matter anyway because the state does not offer insurance for cars and does not force you to purchase insurance from them if they did offer it. This argument of yours here does not work. The state and local by law require you have automobile insurance. But...the state does not offer nor requires you buy THEIR insurance. That is the fundamental difference. :03:

[August]

Only motor vehicle insurance is required by the state of Maryland. It does not matter anyway because the state does not offer insurance for cars and does not force you to purchase insurance from them if they did offer it. This argument of yours here does not work. The state and local by law require you have automobile insurance. But...the state does not offer nor requires you buy THEIR insurance. That is the fundamental difference. :03:

I might add that motor vehicle insurance is required to drive on public thoroughfares only. To drive a motor vehicle on your own land you don't even need a license let alone insurance.

[CaptainHaplo]

While I can't speak for other states, there has been one locally well known case where the driver of a motor vehicle was pulled and did not have a license - due to the fact he could not get one. He could not get one because in this state, they require your SSN - and he had legally removed himself form the SS system. *This entails a LOT of legal work due to the US of A being set up as a corporation in an of itself but thats another matter.* In the end - his constitutional right to freely travel was upheld, though it was a very long and expensive battle.

[Onkel Neal]

I don't get it, why wait until 2014 for the free insurance to take effect? What about the next 4 years? What's the point in creating a new law that takes effect after the President leaves office?

[GoldenRivet]

I don't get it, why wait until 2014 for the free insurance to take effect? What about the next 4 years? What's the point in creating a new law that takes effect after the President leaves office?

that way it will be the next guy's fault

[Jimbuna]

I don't get it, why wait until 2014 for the free insurance to take effect? What about the next 4 years? What's the point in creating a new law that takes effect after the President leaves office?

that way it will be the next guy's fault

Not too unlike your British political cousins :DL

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't get it, why wait until 2014 for the free insurance to take effect? What about the next 4 years? What's the point in creating a new law that takes effect after the President leaves office?

I will take that 4 years any day of the week. First, time for repeal. Second, time for election and elect a group of people to run the country who respect the people wishes and respect the Constitution. Next in charge at the White House dumps it completely. Third, if it sticks there should be 4 years of study and refinement of how this lame brain bill should function.

For the most part it looks like a political ploy to gain another 4 years. Think about it on the podium...Obama stating that if he is not re-elected his healthcare legislation could go bye bye. Watch and see. :03:

[AVGWarhawk]

While I can't speak for other states, there has been one locally well known case where the driver of a motor vehicle was pulled and did not have a license - due to the fact he could not get one. He could not get one because in this state, they require your SSN - and he had legally removed himself form the SS system. *This entails a LOT of legal work due to the US of A being set up as a corporation in an of itself but thats another matter.* In the end - his constitutional right to freely travel was upheld, though it was a very long and expensive battle.

I'm sure it was. In MD the DMV says driving is not a right...it is a priviledge. :hmmm:

[August]

I don't get it, why wait until 2014 for the free insurance to take effect? What about the next 4 years? What's the point in creating a new law that takes effect after the President leaves office?

He probably plans to run for reelection on a "Stay the Course" platform.

[AVGWarhawk]

He probably plans to run for reelection on a "Stay the Course" platform.


Hmmmm were have we heard this before? :har:

[SteamWake]

I don't get it, why wait until 2014 for the free insurance to take effect? What about the next 4 years? What's the point in creating a new law that takes effect after the President leaves office?

Because he has a 'shot' at another four years ;)

The timing is a bit uncanny no?

[OneToughHerring]

It wasn't shown on Finn Pravda TV so it didn't happen. :yep:

Compared to US media? What media wouldn't be better then that.

[August]

Compared to US media? What media wouldn't be better then that.

What do you know about US media?

[SteamWake]

Harsh reality begins to rear its ugly head...


Even before President Obama signed the bill on Tuesday, Caterpillar said it would cost the company at least $100 million more in the first year alone. Medical device maker Medtronic warned that new taxes on its products could force it to lay off a thousand workers. Now Verizon joins the roll of businesses staring at adverse consequences.

In an email titled "President Obama Signs Health Care Legislation" sent to all employees Tuesday night, the telecom giant warned that "we expect that Verizon's costs will increase in the short term." While executive vice president for human resources Marc Reed wrote that "it is difficult at this point to gauge the precise impact of this legislation," and that ObamaCare does reflect some of the company's policy priorities, the message to workers was clear: Expect changes for the worse to your health benefits as the direct result of this bill, and maybe as soon as this year.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703312504575141642402986422.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_sections_opinion

[OneToughHerring]

What do you know about US media?

Most Finnish news and other media come unfiltered from some US source. We don't have our own media, everything is fed to us from the US media conglomerates.

[Snestorm]

Most Finnish news and other media come unfiltered from some US source. We don't have our own media, everything is fed to us from the US media conglomerates.

I hope you're kidding.
That's like watching / hearing / reading science fiction.

[Aramike]

I don't get it, why wait until 2014 for the free insurance to take effect? What about the next 4 years? What's the point in creating a new law that takes effect after the President leaves office?Yet, there were certain things that were supposed to take effect immediately, such as pre-existing coverage and raising the age cap on being able to remain under one's parent's plan (even though they snafu'd on one of them).

It seems to me as though they KNEW that most of the bill was unpopular, so they decided to enact the desirable stuff first and hope that the public forgot about who's responsible for the world of hurt yet to come.

[Aramike]

So now fast food chains must begin putting calorie counts all over their menus due to the healthcare legislation.

Isn't it amazing that what was supposed to be the most transparent Congress in history can cook up a healthcare plan that will cost trillions behind closed doors, but than come out and require COMPLETE transparency for Big Macs?

[August]

Most Finnish news and other media come unfiltered from some US source. We don't have our own media, everything is fed to us from the US media conglomerates.

Well judging by your posts over the past year OTH i'd have to say that what you're being fed isn't very accurate.

[Jimbuna]

I hope you're kidding.
That's like watching / hearing / reading science fiction.

:hmmm::DL

[August]

The US media isn't a reflection of American society, it tries to be an influence upon it, and I think some Europeans don't really understand this.

[SteamWake]

The US media isn't a reflection of American society, it tries to be an influence upon it, and I think some Europeans don't really understand this.

Well the enlightned Eu pepole should be. After all they invented it.

[GoldenRivet]

According to some of the things i have read about this bill...

it is a very real possibility that i will be in prison in about 4 years

:woot:

If these liberals wanted European health care so effin bad they should have moved to Europe

[Skybird]

I read that not just a few, but many representatives receive threats of assassination, and letters teling them that snipers had been send out to kill their children, and that many have asked for police protection.

Several Republicans have been accused to have helped to heat up things like this. I only remind of Palin and her death camps, or claims over alleged euthanasia as a result of this bill.

Here borderlines get crossed, with friendly assistance from some who accept even means like this if they think it helps themselves to reclaim power.

If anything, this shows how totally hysteric, irrational, disconnected from reality the debate has become.

I always had the strong impression from the history books that the more serious political scandals and the more hurtful political crimes in america in the past century, after WWII, has come from the Republican camp's direction. While the Democrats also had scandals, none of them can compete with the severity of Watergate, Irangate, Iraq 2003. The extremely hate-filled climate created by Republicans even long before the bill became a hot issue, already during the election campaign, maybe one day also will be mentioned in one breath with these, due to the rifts (created by Bush) beeing deepened to an degree that I currently cannot see how this rift in American society could ever be healed again within the next generation. How could that be possible if the right, whenever it weeps for its lost powers, runs a policy of scorched earth?

I am no Obama fan, and have said that repeatedly very clearly. I was sceptic about him from the beginning, nevertheless I gave him a chance to show his line, and I got dissapointed, mainly referring to foreign policy.

But what is happening now, again is too much.

Edit:
I also remind of one thing. There are people, a majority of around 60% they say, that are against the reform. But the camp of these is split. There is a majority in this camp that is against the reform in principle. But there also is a minority in this camp that is against this reform because it is not radical enough, thus opposing it for a dcompßletely different reason. I really wonder if there really is a majority in society being against the reform in principle.

[August]

Again we have foreigners thinking what they see on TV is the unvarnished reality.

What they don't seem to realize or care is that politicians receive thousands of messages from constituents and other concerned Americans every week. The one or two obscene or threatening messages they get are the ones the media reports, effectively making a mountain out of a mole hill in order to marginalize the political opposition. Remember that our media plays favorites.

So stop believing the hype. Have any of you actually heard these threats? How do you know they aren't just made up by a pol trying to gain sympathy? Why are you such suckers? And have you heard about my super duper American bridge and monument sale?

[AVGWarhawk]

So now fast food chains must begin putting calorie counts all over their menus due to the healthcare legislation.

Isn't it amazing that what was supposed to be the most transparent Congress in history can cook up a healthcare plan that will cost trillions behind closed doors, but than come out and require COMPLETE transparency for Big Macs?

A lot have already provided a list of calories for each product sold. McD has done so for quite sometime. Most have done that on their own dime. Subway, McD, Friendly's etc.

[AVGWarhawk]

I read that not just a few, but many representatives receive threats of assassination, and letters teling them that snipers had been send out to kill their children, and that many have asked for police protection.


True. Some are just out of control. However, Congress wiping their arse with the Constitution would draw some unwanted attention.

Several Republicans have been accused to have helped to heat up things like this. I only remind of Palin and her death camps, or claims over alleged euthanasia as a result of this bill.


Yes sir, let the Dems use this as a politcal ploy. Sorry to say several Repubs got threats also. The Dems have not been singled out nor have the Repub instigated these threats. A lot of folks say Palin is a twit...why listen to her know? The Palin assumption is far fetched.

Here borderlines get crossed, with friendly assistance from some who accept even means like this if they think it helps themselves to reclaim power.

If anything, this shows how totally hysteric, irrational, disconnected from reality the debate has become.


No, what it shows is complete disregard for what America wants. It shows complete disregard for the Constitution and broad definitions of what the Constitution means. What it means is Congress made up rules as they went along to make historic legislation and get into the history books.


I always had the strong impression from the history books that the more serious political scandals and the more hurtful political crimes in america in the past century, after WWII, has come from the Republican camp's direction. While the Democrats also had scandals, none of them can compete with the severity of Watergate, Irangate, Iraq 2003. The extremely hate-filled climate created by Republicans even long before the bill became a hot issue, already during the election campaign, maybe one day also will be mentioned in one breath with these, due to the rifts (created by Bush) beeing deepened to an degree that I currently cannot see how this rift in American society could ever be healed again within the next generation. How could that be possible if the right, whenever it weeps for its lost powers, runs a policy of scorched earth?


Thats a good one....read up on all the Clinton-gates....odd trails of dead bodies and papers found in trunks of cars at the junkyard. :hmmm: http://www.boycottliberalism.com/Scandals.htm

I am no Obama fan, and have said that repeatedly very clearly. I was sceptic about him from the beginning, nevertheless I gave him a chance to show his line, and I got dissapointed, mainly referring to foreign policy.


He has no foreign policy. However he likes to keep the eye on the ball in Afghanistan!


But what is happening now, again is too much.


Agreed....know you understand the threats maybe?

Edit:
I also remind of one thing. There are people, a majority of around 60% they say, that are against the reform. But the camp of these is split. There is a majority in this camp that is against the reform in principle. But there also is a minority in this camp that is against this reform because it is not radical enough, thus opposing it for a dcompßletely different reason. I really wonder if there really is a majority in society being against the reform in principle.

I do not believe the majority is against it. What I believe is the method of operation to obtain this legislation is part of reason some are against it...ie. making back door deals for abortion. Wiping their arse with the Constitution. Completely ignoring the public outcry. WTH did they expect from the public when promises are broken and the peachy keen squeeky clean Obama made promises our checkbooks can not write. Reform needs to take place...throwing trillions at it will not create reform. Reform needs to start at the root cause.... Why is healthcare so expensive and what can be done to reduce these costs? That is the ultimate question that requires an answer before trillions are thrown in for good measure.

[SteamWake]

The CBO report is out....

Read it and weep.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/26/cbos-2020-vision-debt-will-rise-to-90-of-gdp/

[AVGWarhawk]

Print more money!!! :arrgh!::up::rock: Down the crapper!

[Capt. Teach]

This is a very interesting thread.

I wish I had enough factual knowledge to get involved with the discussion but sadly, I don't.

I can comment on what I have read though ... although Ill keep most of that to myself.

I find it interesting that a lot of our european brothers have what seems to be rather strong opinions about a healthcare system that has nothing to do with them. Although, as an American I recognize and will fight for their right to state it [regardless of content] within my country. To head off any future comments, no I'm not an isolationist. However, please take into consideration that the number of people we deal with is far beyond what you deal with. [ Example: Norway approx population 4.858 million? (Jan 2010 http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/02/01/) Compare that to one state ... say California 36.756 million (2008 estimate US Census bureau. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html)] So, I think it somewhat safe to say that passing something in Norway is not unlike getting something passed in the city of Los Angeles ( 2006 estimate http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/0644000.html ) I think that you might not be considering that a sweeping change that involves our entire country has the potential of causing a lot more grief than a sweeping change that involves your entire country.

I will however make one statement that is my own belief. It's something I fight for all the time. I believe in freedom of choice. When someone, anyone, comes into my life or the lives of others and states "There is no choice, this is how it will be." then yes, they get my full attention. If it radically limits freedom of choice ... then I am against it and how "good it is" no longer becomes an issue. Why? Because a precident has been established and you can now expect further limitations in the future.

Simply stated, I don't like being force-fed by anyone.

[AVGWarhawk]

Simply stated, I don't like being force-fed by anyone.


Welcome to the Obama diplomacy theory! Silver spoon or will plastic due? :shifty:

[Capt. Teach]

Welcome to the Obama diplomacy theory! Silver spoon or will plastic due? :shifty:


Thanks for the choice brother! :salute:

I think I'll choose .... a SPORK! :har:

[CaptainHaplo]

I think we have been SPORKED enough...

Both parties have had their share of "scandals". The reason is simply - both sides have professional politicians whose only goal is the amassing of personal, party and federal power - which they then control.

Get rid of professional politicians, get rid of the 2 party system and the federal government could be reduced to the size its supposed to be.

[August]

I think we have been SPORKED enough...

Both parties have had their share of "scandals". The reason is simply - both sides have professional politicians whose only goal is the amassing of personal, party and federal power - which they then control.

Get rid of professional politicians, get rid of the 2 party system and the federal government could be reduced to the size its supposed to be.

Well Hap though I am with you on the professional politicians, I'm not likely to agree with any scheme to "get rid of the 2 party system" but be that as it may all you need to do is get the agreement of 38 state legislatures:

Article V
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

Here's one amendment that i'd like to see. "The Federal government is prohibited from taxing the income of Americans directly. It must receive all it's funding from and through the state governments."

Now THAT would certainly limit the size of the Federal government...

[JackAubrey]

I find it interesting that a lot of our european brothers have what seems to be rather strong opinions about a healthcare system that has nothing to do with them.
Thats maybe because many, many europeans have grown up with public healthcare, me too.

For example, in germany the first health insurance was formed in 1843, the public healthcare system was started in 1881.
So, if there were any objections against public healthcare, they were stated 129 years ago and we don't know about them anymore. :DL

I don't know how different the planned US Healthcare System is from ours over here, neither is my english good enough to understand the differences in detail, but when somebody tells me, he has to pay 60.000 Dollars total for a complete gallstone removal operation including postsurgical care, because his employers insurance does not cover that kind of stuff, it sounds kind of scary.

I don't know if he made that up, and maybe you'll never have to pay any bills for things regarding your health in the U.S., but seeing a doctor and then pay him for the consultation or operation is a concept most people with public healthcare can't grasp.
Ok, maybe the privately insured can, but they get their money back from their insurers.

I too don't know how the current healthcare system in the U.S. really works.
Are you free to see any doctor you want? Do you have to pay doctor's bills? Do you get this money back from your insurer? Does the insurer pay the doctor directly?
If you are insured, does the insurer cover a heart transplant as well as a headache regardless who the insurer is?

To be honest:
I was taught in school, about 20 yrs ago, that many, many americans are not able to see a doctor because they simply don't have the money left. To us, this sounded like a 3rd World country back then. :D

[August]

You want to know how health care works under Obama JackAubrey?

It's actually simple. We've been all ordered by our Federal government to go out and purchase private health care insurance or pay a fine.

That and the government has pissed away a ton of money that we don't really have to piss away. Once you strip away all the politics and rhetoric that is pretty much all it boils down to.

[JackAubrey]

It's actually simple. We've been all ordered by our Federal government to go out and purchase private health care insurance or pay a fine.

Thanks for boiling it down for me.
So the people that can't afford an insurance now, still can't afford an insurance then? What's the point in calling this a "healthcare reform"?

[August]

Thanks for boiling it down for me.
So the people that can't afford an insurance now, still can't afford an insurance then? What's the point in calling this a "healthcare reform"?

The people who can't afford insurance will now get it for free like they always have.

Yeah they threw us a couple of bones, can't be denied insurance for pre-existing conditions and kids can stay on the parents health care plan until 26 etc. But what they don't tell you is that such denials were not the norm, especially for workplace insurance plans, and that insurance plans don't set rates by the number of kids in a family.

My wife and I, who have no children at all, pay the same as a family of 11, (which btw is more than we'd pay with separate plans). Now seeing as how folks between the ages of 18 and 26 don't tend to rack up all that many health care bills that benefit isn't really all that significant.

[SteamWake]

What in the heck does student loans have to do with healthcare?

Actually what does this healthcare legislation have to do with healthcare?

"Kids untill there 26" :D I dunno wether to laugh or cry.

[Blacklight]

The people who can't afford insurance will now get it for free like they always have.

Um. My wife has no health insurance because she got laid off two years ago and we can't afford it. When she got really sick and needed to see a doctor, we had to blow half of whatever was left of our life savings to pay for the doctors and the prescriptions.

That kills THAT arguement. This bill is going to help people like us where my wife has been unable to find work that is willing to give out health insurance, and with me on dissability already. My wife went from a really good paying, full benefit job to working for the same people as a temp with a quarter of the pay and no benefits. Every week she sends out at least 30-50 resumes and goes for job interviews several times a week. Shes been stuck temping for two years, going on three.

God. I WISH we had always gotten free healthcare like the above poster states. That just isn't the case for most of us. That's why this healthcare plan is so great. Now, if something happens to my wife that requires anyhing medical, it's going to be taken care of (At least a hell of a lot better than it will be now).

There are LOTS of people in the same situation me and my wife are in who NEED a healtcare plan like this. Especially now with so many unemployed and so few jobs available.

[August]

There are LOTS of people in the same situation me and my wife are in who NEED a healtcare plan like this. Especially now with so many unemployed and so few jobs available.

Such a sad story. Hope it all works out for you Blacklight. Just remember though that nothing is free. If you get health care out of this it'll be because your neighbors are paying for it.

[Platapus]

Here's one amendment that i'd like to see. "The Federal government is prohibited from taxing the income of Americans directly. It must receive all it's funding from and through the state governments."

Now THAT would certainly limit the size of the Federal government...

That could work. Citizens pay taxes only to the state and the state pays the federal government. The state of Virginia has a whole lot more influence than I do when it comes to bitchin about taxes.

The only problem with that idea is that states are often worse then the federal government when it comes to fiscal responsibility. It would be like me signing over my paycheck to the 22 year old and having her responsible for paying my bills. :nope:

[August]

That could work. Citizens pay taxes only to the state and the state pays the federal government. The state of Virginia has a whole lot more influence than I do when it comes to bitchin about taxes.

The only problem with that idea is that states are often worse then the federal government when it comes to fiscal responsibility. It would be like me signing over my paycheck to the 22 year old and having her responsible for paying my bills. :nope:

I know but the feds are no better. At least the state house is within protesting distance, so not only does the state have more influence with the Feds than you do, you also have a lot more influence with your state.

[Blacklight]

Just remember though that nothing is free. If you get health care out of this it'll be because your neighbors are paying for it.

The average person shouldn't see much of an increase in taxes beyond what one would normally expect every year. The biggest increase will be with the wealthy. Despite what's being said by the far right, this bill is NOT going to bring about the end of society through tax increases.

The US NEEDS a set of healthcare laws that prevent all the bull crap that unregulated privatized insurance from abusing their power such as dropping people when they get sick or turning people down when they have a preexisting condition. It's also going to make it a LOT easier for businesses to get decent insurance plans for their employees. There's too many people out there, especially with the economy and jobless situation that's going on right now. We can't just expect all these people who got laid off or who can't find work (or work with any benefits) in this economy to be able to pay for their own insurance when the insurance companies would charge them twice their life savings every month.
It's also going to close the "donut hole" in medicare part D so instead of covering perscription drugs only to a certain dollar amount each year and then nothing till the next year, it will cover all the time. This is great for me because I'm on medicare and I have to take a lot of medications. I hit the donut hole after four months. What little money I get from Social Security is BARELY enough to handle the cost which leaves my wife who's stuck as a temp worker to handle everything else.
This bill is a god send for people like us who used to be earning a nice middle class living and are now living below poverty levels.

[August]

The average person shouldn't see much of an increase in taxes beyond what one would normally expect every year. The biggest increase will be with the wealthy. Despite what's being said by the far right, this bill is NOT going to bring about the end of society through tax increases.

No, it's not going to end society, it'll be repealed long before that, it's just going to add to everyone's tax burden and that includes the middle class. Now you and the Democrats claim it's not going to be "much of an increase" but you really have no idea, nobody does.

I'll tell you what I do know though. Here in Mass, where we have our own version Obamacare (Patrickcare), we have the highest health insurance premiums in the entire nation. A recent report by the Commonwealth Fund showed that the average family premium for plans offered by employers in Massachusetts was $13,788 in 2008, 40 percent higher than in 2003. Over the same period, premiums nationwide rose an average of 33 percent. I just don't see how that's going to change if enacted on a national scale.

Oh and FWIW i don't expect my taxes to go up every year, my pay sure doesn't so why should my taxes? At what point is enough?

The US NEEDS a set of healthcare laws that prevent all the bull crap that unregulated privatized insurance from abusing their power such as dropping people when they get sick or turning people down when they have a preexisting condition.That is both easily legislated and enjoys bipartisan support. It shouldn't cost a trillion dollars to implement though...

It's also going to make it a LOT easier for businesses to get decent insurance plans for their employees.Again I disagree. Not only are the cost of healthcare plans going to go up it's much cheaper for business to pay the fine for not providing health care than it is to provide it.

There's too many people out there, especially with the economy and jobless situation that's going on right now. We can't just expect all these people who got laid off or who can't find work (or work with any benefits) in this economy to be able to pay for their own insurance when the insurance companies would charge them twice their life savings every month.

It's also going to close the "donut hole" in medicare part D so instead of covering perscription drugs only to a certain dollar amount each year and then nothing till the next year, it will cover all the time. This is great for me because I'm on medicare and I have to take a lot of medications. I hit the donut hole after four months. What little money I get from Social Security is BARELY enough to handle the cost which leaves my wife who's stuck as a temp worker to handle everything else.
This bill is a god send for people like us who used to be earning a nice middle class living and are now living below poverty levels.Which brings me back to my original point. Your neighbors are the ones who are gonna get stuck paying for it.

Y'know Blacklight, I'm a pretty generous guy when it comes to donating to charity. I'm just that hot on the idea of being forced by my own government to donate to something that I seriously doubt will live up to it's claimed benefits.

[tater]

Our taxes are going up a lot.

Since the wife is mandated to see any medicaid or medicare person that goes in through the ER, even if she no longer take a either as scheduled appointments (which she no longer does), we also pay a medicaid/medicare "tax" in that we actually spend money out of the family bank account to care for these people. That is because the 2 together only pay 70% of COST (medicaid is the FAR worse of the two). Add in the lost wages and it's far worse.

BTW, the cutoff for medicaid is actually a fairly high income level. Also, I know that my old family doc in CT no longer takes ANY insurance, he has people pay an annual retainer in cash, instead.

Regardless, here's an article about something I said a few pages up someplace—doctor shortages being the REAL healthcare problem in the US.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304506904575180331528424238.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond

Funny thing is that article—wrongly, IMHO—concentrates on primary care. Primary care docs are who you see when you have most of your illnesses. The trouble is that the vast majority of illness is SELF LIMITED. Meaning it goes away on its own with no medical care. Yeah, they function as triage, but the reality is that the benefits of "preventative" primary care are overrated (read a recent study to that effect). When you are really sick—sick in a "get care or die" sense—you'll likely present acutely in an ER setting, or you'll go to the primary just to get a referral to a specialist (two office visits when just going to the specialist would suffice). The specialist shortage is worse.

As the article says, primary care might not be sexy, but it also has a great lifestyle, virtually nothing after hours, and little or no call, ever.

[tater]

A very short and accurate take on some of the major flaws in the new law. This is spot on, and we pay very close attention to this as it will very directly and quickly affect us.

http://healthcare.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Y2Q1ZWZkZDAzYWNiZGQyZDhhMzEyNjU0YTY3YzU3Njg=

The bullet point #4 is particularly concerning. The requirement that Medicaid patients get all services. Right now, doctors frequently don't take medicaid at their offices. They simply cannot do it since it pays below cost. That'd be like requiring all plumbers to do work at 20% of the actual cost to provide service—not counting the plumber's time. As a result, many people will either wait in line at low-income clinics, or only get seen when they present at the ER with conditions bad enough to get to see a specialist (and be sure, the current situation will make specialists far less cavalier about letting any medicaid get on their service, whereas now they don't even know).

Being "entitled" medicaid people means they sue more. Since this is a Democratic law, it would never think of doing anything to mitigate lawsuits—since if nothing else, they are the party of the trial lawyers. These people will sue the State any time they have to wait (they are the most likely to bitch and moan about having to wait a couple weeks to be seen for their non-emergency care as it is—sorry, lady, you've leaked pee for 20 years already, waiting an extra week because there are actual sick people to be seen and half as many docs as needed is tough luck for you.

Sigh. These idiots didn't even read this POS bill they signed.

[CaptainHaplo]

Heck - I am pissed that it included what amounts to a "white woman" tax.....

[Tribesman]

Regardless, here's an article about something I said a few pages up someplace—doctor shortages being the REAL healthcare problem in the US.

So according to that article the problem will be that as more people have coverage more people will go to doctors.
There is a simple solution, make sure as few people as possible have coverage then only a few will go to doctors so there will be no shortage of doctors

[tater]

So according to that article the problem will be that as more people have coverage more people will go to doctors.
There is a simple solution, make sure as few people as possible have coverage then only a few will go to doctors so there will be no shortage of doctors

The is a shortage of doctors and nurses NOW.

Let me explain something to you. The US is big. Physically large. The doctor shortage is NOT in the areas of high population density—you know, the places where people are packed like sardines like Europe. Take Connecticut, where I grew up. You can lay Connecticuts in New Mexico like throw rugs and fit 20 of them. CT has more than twice the NM population, and yet has loads of docs per capita. This means that not only do you meet per capita requirements, but all those docs are physically close to everyone. Overlapping, in fact, if you set some arbitrary travel distance.

So, you need a level one trauma center. In CT, there are several, and given the fact that you can cross the state the long way in 2 hours, and the short way in one—by emergency ground vehicle in traffic. In NM, we have ONE level one trauma center. It's in the center E-W, and 2/3 the way N-S. It takes 4.5 hours to get to the South end of the State by fast moving vehicles from ABQ, so maybe 8 hours to cross the state that way, and 6 hours the other way. In small places with large population, you can get some economies of scale. Not in the middle of the US.

In the "fly over" states in the middle of the US, you need MORE healthcare infrastructure per capita (and we have less) since if you need a specialty urgently, that means you need doctors physically close. No one in CT is probably more than 20-30 minutes (including ambulances stuck in traffic) from a trauma center. In NM, the average is probably 1.5 hours BY AIR. So to have "equal protection" (if the government is responsible, I DEMAND equal travel time as someone in CT!) we'd need MANY more docs and facilities (remember that no one wants 24/7/365 call, so every facility needs 3+ people in every specialty).

Get the picture? Health care in a large country does not scale linearly with population. Area matters.

So into this, we add MORE patients—patients who get treated by a plan that pays doctors less than it costs them to care for the patients not even counting their own time. They need to make far more doctors—while letting them know that they will in fact have to pay money out of pocket to treat patients! The only way to do that is to drop standards. Foreign docs? Nope, in the US they have to do a US residency. So for a specialist, 5+ years at 100-120 hours a week for $3/hour in pay. We know a few foreign MDs who are NURSES in the US because they don't think it's worth it to do a residency when they could pass the nursing exams and instantly start making 60k a year or more for great (compared to docs) hours (this one guy is really a doc in my wife's specialty—she loves him in the OR cause he's "telepathic" and hands her the right tool before she even verbalizes it since he knows, too, lol).

So we are left with minting new docs—which REQUIRES lower standards, AND it requires TIME. If med schools magically have 30% more docs starting in 2011, then we'll see the least important kind—primary care—popping out in 2018 to start. The surgeons will not ripen til 2020. And that is only a 30% increase for one year, it will take a few decades to catch up at that rate.

If you think healthcare is simple, or that anyone in politics in favor of this pig of a bill actually understands it even a little, you're wrong.

[Tribesman]

Let me explain something to you.

So someone in New Mexico wanting to get to hospital would probably get there quicker than someone from the arse end of Mayo would even though NM is 4 times bigger than the whole of Ireland.

Foreign docs? Nope, in the US they have to do a US residency.
Do they really?
And there was me thinking the 3rd and final exam that is required for doctors who are graduates of foriegn medical schools to be granted a licence can be taken in several States without having to do the residency.

[tater]

So someone in New Mexico wanting to get to hospital would probably get there quicker than someone from the arse end of Mayo would even though NM is 4 times bigger than the whole of Ireland.


Do they really?
And there was me thinking the 3rd and final exam that is required for doctors who are graduates of foriegn medical schools to be granted a licence can be taken in several States without having to do the residency.

No, foreign medical grads have to complete a residency in their specialty to practice.

We know a lot of docs who did med school in other countries, too. Sucked. Not sure about Canada, actually, I think they are in the same system and can come at will. <EDIT> I checked and Canadians are in the same system and can come directly, that's it, though. Also, while in some cases it sucks for docs to do a residency over again here, even european docs we know said their US Residency was far harder than their similar training abroad (jamming 10-5 years experience into 5, by working them to death, basically).

Passing the USMLE means you CAN practice medicine in the US—as a Resident, so you are sort of right (ie they are docs here, but only within the confines of being in a hospital Residency program). Part 3 is done during Residency I think. You pass the exams, and that means that your med school education is up to snuff, but you are still required to take a Residency in the US before you can practice for real. I don't know of any State where you can pass the USMLE and simply hang out a shingle. I suppose a State might chose to do this in desperation, though no medical society would Board Certify them I bet.

Boards are specialty related, and have nothing to do with license, just your ability to hang out "Board Certified."

I'm not sure where Mayo is in reference to a proper hospital, but since medical air travel is incredibly expensive (I'm talking helicopter or fixed-wing ambulance, so think in terms of many thousands of dollars per hour), most are stuck with road travel of several hours.

Regardless, while you might find that acceptable for a public system, here in the US if the system was public people would demand "equal protection" and they;d have to magically make more hospitals—that's easy, the tricky part is magically making docs and nurses (both are short here).

[tater]

The bottom line WRT this awful bill is that when the President campaigned on the need for health care reform, many of the basic goals he stated were (and remain) desired by the population over all, as well as both political parties. The bill passed into law addresses virtually none of these salient points. IMO, the bill was simply a foot in the door to try and make more people wards of the State in the hope they will then vote themselves more stuff paid for by their neighbors who actually work.

It would have been possible to pass a far simpler bill that would have worked towards the goals of: increasing access to care, "bending down the cost curve," and doing the above without negatively impacting quality of care.

There was in fact a bipartisan bill proposed to do so, but the dems killed it.

A few ideas off the top of my head:

1. Allow providers to write off care delivered below cost as a charitable contribution equal to the difference between the amount they were reimbursed, and some average reimbursement for private insurance (likely some multiple of medicare, ie: 123% of medicare or something like that). This incentivises taking people getting government care instead of the current system which pretty much requires seeing as few as is possible/legal. This should be a 100% deduction off income before any taxes, not the amount times their effective tax rate.

2. Allow insurance to cross State lines. This would vastly broaden competition.

3. The current system has the bulk of insurance sold to BUSINESS as the customer for their employees. Change this instead to individuals buying their own insurance.

4. TORT reform. No, malpractice insurance is not a huge % of medical costs. No, malpractice awards are not a huge % of medical costs. Defensive medicine to CYA, on the other hand, IS a major % of total medical costs. As a reality check, some studies have suggested that defensive medicine amounts to 20% or more of the total cost of care in the US. The insurance company profits demonized by the Democrats? 1-2% of total costs. This will not be an instant fix, docs are trained into defensive medicine. It will take some time for them to unlearn ordering every test, "just in case," as an immunization against lawsuits.

5. Allow any citizen to buy into any plan that any government employee has as if they were government employees (they are, after all the employer in that case). This doesn't matter if individuals buy plans instead of businesses, as suggested above.

6. If there are any people legitimately falling through the cracks, then expand medicaid a little. This will not hurt as much since the docs providing care can now write this off.

I'm sure other ideas are out there. Right now none of this has been done.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

"Kids untill there 26" :D I dunno wether to laugh or cry.

That's funny, no where in the health care bill does it say you retain minor status until 26. Are you reading a different health care bill?