Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[Rockin Robbins]

Here we are again, the Kapitan_Phillips thread hijackers (sorry), but we had a spirited and really important discussion going on.

One group of people say the swastika is legitimate when used in personal signatures, including self-portraits as a smiling German captain under the Nazi flag with girlfriend/wife/other, glorious medals, manly Latin slogan, etc. The war is over and these symbols have no power.

Another group of people, to which I am an unwilling but still enthusiastic member, having been convinced by a friend I respect greatly who lost his family to the Nazis in the Ukraine, says that so long as there are neo-Nazis out there sincerely and with violence advocating the anti Jewish, gypsy, slav, heck, anybody not "Aryan" other than themselves:D, "cleanse the world of these subhumans" philosophy, that Nazi symbols mean something ugly and present. We should not use them out of respect for those who are still targeted for destruction by vicious people using those symbols as a rallying point.

One argument is the "immersion" argument. "How can we take our U-Boat mission seriously if our flag has a teddy bear in the middle of it? (I put it there just to tweak 'em:up:) OK, I see your point. Kill the teddy bear and use whatever Charlie Chaplin used in his movie. That was cool!

If you look at it closely, the immersion argument is a crock of bull. I can't say it so I'm going to have to quote Ducimus, author of Trigger Maru Overhauled.

The object of attention in these games, is, and should be, the submarine and what it does. No more, no less. Now there has to be some ambiance to draw the player in for immersion sakes, however, there is a line there.

For example, i have conciously, avoided waving the American flag in TMO. Except for the background movie by Captain Cox in the main menu, you won't find national or patriotic references in TMO, at least, none that i placed. From my forum sig, to the intro screen of TMO, i have avoided displaying the American Flag. Why? It's certainly NOT because i'm unpatriotic. Far from it. Ive served for 7 years, and if called upon again, i would go without hesitation or complaint (but certainly with a feeling of dread, but thats another story). Why then? Because when you start displaying flags and other nationalistic symbols, now your getting political. And since the submarine sim community is a world wide thing, i wanted to avoid smearing my countries flag in their faces. Blatant flag waving turns people off, and i think it dishonors the colors when one waves it around like a high school cheer leaders set of pom pom's.

...And my question to you guys is, having played TMO, would you not agree that ive made it as immersive and authentic feeling , and yet, left political ideology, (male bovine excrement), and references out of it?

I think so, and that is why, when people think using the swaztika and Kreigsmarine references (awards/dec's/uniforms/etc) makes the game more immersive - i call (male bovine excrement)!I think that's a valuable sentiment and I agree, although I'm not in a position to have been able to say it myself.

[SteamWake]

Not this again :doh:

[Task Force]

In my opinion, the swastika means nothing other than... well as symbol of a nation that fell years ago... It had other meaning before the war.

Heres what wikipedia has to say about the Swastika.

The swastika (from Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) svástika स्वस्तिक) is an equilateral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilateral) cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross) with its arms bent at right angles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle#Types_of_angles), in either right-facing (卐) form or its mirrored left-facing (卍) form. Archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates from the Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) period. It occurs mainly in the modern day culture of India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_India), sometimes as a geometrical motif and sometimes as a religious symbol. It remains widely used in Eastern religions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_religions) / Dharmic religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmic_religion) such as Hinduism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism), Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism) and Jainism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism).
Though once commonly used all over much of the world without stigma, because of its iconic usage in Nazi Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany) the symbol has become stigmatized in the Western world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world), and it has notably been outlawed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_%C2%A7_86a) in Germany if used as symbol of Nazism. Usage of the sign by religious groups is tolerated. Many modern far right and neo-nazi groups such as Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaner_Weerstandsbeweging) or Russian National Unity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity) use stylised swastikas or similar symbols.

so it use to be a good thing, a religious symbol, then it was turnt into the National german workers partys symbol.

[Highbury]

Inside the game, yes. Outside of the game, no. I don't need immersion on the forums.

I change flags to the proper ones in game, but would never put one in my forum signature. Just my flotilla emblem as my boat historically had none. On the German Captain's desk I changed the photo to one of actress Ellen Schwanneke, that way I had a period authentic picture of an attractive German girl on my desk, as would seem appropriate, but at the same time knowing she is the famous "Girl who said no to Hitler".

@ Task Force: You have good points, but I am sure every person on this forum knows that the Swastika did not originate with the Nazis. When you put the Swastika in a white circle on a red flag and it can ONLY mean one thing. That is what RR is referring to.

@ Rockin' Robbins re Ducimus quote: I haven't played TMO much, but I think that flag waving Americanism is MORE appropriate then Nazism in the decor of boats, offices etc IN GAME. We know that by and large the U Boat crews were not fanatical Nazis. They were patriots, as were the Americans of the time. The difference is, Old Glory did not change for a political party or ideal. It was the same flag before and after the war. To honor the American flag at that time was not to honor the Republicans and FDR but America, and honoring the German Swastika flag was honoring Hitler and the Nazi Party, not just Germany (although even a non-Nazi patriot legally only had that flag at the time, not a totally fair comparison). Big difference IMO BUT, I do feel both are appropriate IN GAME, only one is appropriate out of game. And not because they won the war, just because the flag only meant country.

[mookiemookie]

That time is not here for the Nazis of World War II. The German people themselves testify to that. A poor dead guard at a museum testifies to that. Until their attitudes and positions are exterminated, adopting their symbols and roleplaying their people is not appropriate. There is a line that we need not and must not cross.

You make it sound like everyone should treat the whole subject of U-boat warfare as taboo and there shouldn't be games about it. Do you feel that way about IL2 Sturmovik? You can fly Nazi planes in that game. Does it mean it glorifies the Nazi cause? You can even fly Russian planes too...does that glorify their cause? Ask any Pole from that era about what nice guys the Russians were. Is that wrong? Should we ignore that aspect of the war with our sims?

I doubt the majority of us SH3 fans are roleplaying Nazis and sailing for the glory of Adolf Hitler. That argument is specious.

I prefer U-boats and u-boat history. Does that mean I'm glorifying the Nazi cause? No. I just find the struggles, technologies and theatre more interesting than fleet boats.

Do I want realism in my sim? Yes. I like to experience that side of warfare because I am interested in these tactics. Sim game fans are sticklers for realism and necessarily attract rivet counters. Remember when SH4 came out and people were complaining about the belt buckles on your crew being Marine buckles and not Navy buckles? That's the kind of person you're dealing with. To leave out swastikas or ignore U-boat terminology would make it less of a sim.

People play games for the challenge aspect. Just because I prefer the challenges of sailing a U-boat over the challenges of sailing a Fleet boat is no reason to beat me up over it and tell me I'm inappropriate.

[Sailor Steve]

@ Steamwake: I agree it's annoying to see a subject crop up that has been discussed many times before, but it is certainly appropriate for someone to start his own thread about it rather than let the hijacking continue.

I'm of two minds on the subject. I agree about using the symbols in public forums as sigs and such, but at the same time I have used a small waving American flag as well as the flag of my home state, Utah. But those are currently in public use, and not of much concern. And while I agree that the swastika can be offensive, would we be having this discussion over someone using the old Soviet hammer-and-sickle in his sig? I wouldn't complain about that.

I think it's better to avoid giving offense in the name of civility than to demand my right to show what I want, much the same as I've had the discussion concerning annoyingly loud music in the warehouses I've worked in. Sure, you have a right to listen to whatever you want, but aren't you denying me the right to do the same?

As for in-game, I like seeing the historic flag flying from the surface ships, and I've used the mod in the past that puts it on my u-boat. I also like seeing it in the office, since to me it would look odd without the correct flag there. But that's in my own private game, and doesn't affect anyone else.

As for Ducimus' (and apparently RR's) opinions on usage of those emblems being equated with steer manure, that is your opinion and you're welcome to it, but to state that my considering it to be more immersive is the same is a most unwelcome insult. Should I not watch some of my favorite movies (Das Boot, Battle of Britain and The Longest Day) because they also have the swastika in an historic context? Is that also BS?

[ichso]

I don't need any swastikas inside or outside the game. If you can't imagine that you're on a german WW2 sub without a swastika on your flag than that doesn't say much for your imaginative capabilities. (Don't want to offend anybody, didn't read all of the post :oops: but still ...)

The Nazis have turned a whole lot of things into mess that nobody can use now without creating the association with holocaust and mass murder, and the poor swastika is now only one of the things we can't anymore ;).

[Highbury]

The Nazis have turned a whole lot of things into mess that nobody can use now without creating the association with holocaust and mass murder, and the poor swastika is now only one of the things we can't anymore ;).

That is not really true. If you want to show coins of Troy with a swastika nobody will mind. A buddhist statue with a a swastika, go ahead. A pre-WW2 American 45th Division patch with a swastika, no problem at all. Put it on an all red flag within a central white circle, we have an issue. Everyone knows that the swastika has to be taken in context nowadays.

And putting a few things in game that realistically would have had swastikas is, in my opinion, not a lack of imagination. It is just as important to immersion as having all the bolts and rivets in the right place.. ask Tomi_099 about that one. (**disclaimer - I am not saying Tomi supports or likes swastikas in his game, I do not know his opinion. I am just using his mod as an example of nit-picking detail being a good thing for immersion purposes. If you will make sure a bolt or chain is in the right place, why not an emblem?).

[mookiemookie]

If you will make sure a bolt or chain is in the right place, why not an emblem?).

Hit the nail on the head there.

[Jimbuna]

Not this again :doh:

Don't tell me your actually suprised http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/whistle.gif

[FIREWALL]

I have a very simple solution that has never been brought up or tried, to settle this once and for all. :yep:

[irish1958]

Don't tell me your actually suprised http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/whistle.gif
New players join all the time; they have the same ideas and views that we had who joined two, three or more years ago, and discussed then. I see no problem with the new people bringing up the discussion again.

[Aramike]

You know, I was thinking: are far as the emblem is used on the forums goes, if someone just had a big Nazi flag in their signature, it'd be one thing.

But that's not what we're talking about, are we? We're talking about graphics that incorporate the image in the historical context of the game. I have no problem with that.

Personally, I think too many people are way too fast to take offense these days. Indeed, a certain graphic looked like a recruiting poster for the Kriegsmarine. So what? A reasonable person should put that into context. As such, let's do so.

1: We know this person is not actually recruiting for Nazi mariners.
2: We know this person is participating in a HISTORICAL game which simulates the operations of vessels run by the Nazis.
3: This person has not indicated that he supports anything other than proper historical immersion.

As such, I find nothing wrong with the signature. That person is probably simply appreciating the fact that he's simulating historical situations.

[razark]

I was done with this discussion before the other thread was locked, I don't feel further arguing is going to change anybody's mind. As one of those who kicked this anthill over though, I will repost my last message from the previous thread and leave it at that.

Razark


Previous response:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1118507&postcount=156
And I don't have a problem with someone posting a sig picture, in the context of a WWII subsim discussion forum. If they start posting "in character", then I would probably have a bit of a problem. If they start dressing up and role-playing in the real world, they're taking it way too far, unless they are doing so as a re-enactment.

A different opinion. If the swastika bothers you that much, don't look at it, ignore it. Life will go on.

If the Germans wish to ban the symbol, they shall. I believe that making a symbol forbidden only gives it that much more power. They don't control everybody, though, and people are free to do what they wish in other places. If I recall correctly, the Germans do allow the symbols of the Third Reich to be used in artistic and historical context. I guess you could define a sig picture as art.

[Mr.O'Bannon]

As a person who studies history both good and evil, I cannot find offense in dead symbols of past enemies. The third reich has been wiped clean from this earth and totally deconstructed. The fringe groups who use the symbols today are pathetic and are viewed in the same category with rapists and pedarests. There is no power in the swastika except for the lunatic fringe. It will not burn a hole in your head if you look at it too long, and you will not become a jackbooted thug if you use it in its proper historical context in a virtual reality. People need to be able to take things for what they are and not what they aren't.

[Rockin Robbins]

My only personal negative position in the use of Nazi flags, SS ensignia, or possibly other specific Nazi-related items I might not be thinking of is in items used as personal identification, signature banners, language, such as "Sieg Heil" being used as the traditional opening to someone's posts, etc.

As far as the swastika having benign applications, that is just a straw man because the Nazi flag has definite colors, proportions, thickness of line, etc, which render it an unmistakable and unique symbol of Nazi thuggery. Nobody would mistake the pre-WWII Thunderbirds' swastika for a Nazi symbol, or any of the other swastikas put forward as establishing the harmlessness of the Nazi flag.

That swastika or Nazi flag, when used as part of a ship or submarine, flying from a flagpole in port as part of the game says nothing of the personal identification of the person playing the game. It is part of the environment within which he plays and is historically justified so far as my opinion is concerned. The German nation has other views on that, but even they nuance their position. However you take a position, there will be uncomfortable but permitted usages which will always be in question.

However, when you affect a signature picture, or an icon, or a name on the board, which incorporates Nazi symbolism, you are saying something about yourself and your opinion of those symbols. Showing yourself as a smiling officer, decorated by the Fuhrer, pretty wife in uniform under a flowing Nazi flag with manly Latin slogans is glorifying yourself in the reflected "glory" of the Reich. That says things to people that you might not want to say. I say, and Ducimus said, and the German people say, and U-Boat veterans say that use of Nazi symbolism is over the line. Why? Because Nazi ideology is being used as personal identification, implying that you personally endorse that horse squeeze.

As far as characterizing certain emblems as male bovine excrement, that was a quote from Ducimus and does not imply that I have that opinion. I personally don't have a problem with historically accurate uniforms, medals, flags or insignia within the game. I have a problem when people personally tie themselves to those symbols in a way that implies agreement with those values. The signatures I called attention to do just that, just as someone with the handle "JewKiller" would. NOBODY would consent to that, but the flag in the signature says the same thing.

Many have perverted my position to pretend I am saying things I am not. I realize it is not done honestly, but just to provoke heat. My position is born of the opinions of the survivors of the war who actually ran the U-Boats, of the citizens of the country responsible for 100 million deaths. They agree with me. Actually it is I who agree with them.

If you were to be in the same room with a U-Boat sailor and spouted nonsense about how the Nazi flag is just a piece of cloth that is harmless and you think it is cool to use it as your personally identifying signature picture on the Internet, you would not be in the same room for long. You might not be in the same WORLD for long. You would never forget what he said and did next, I promise.

When I say U-Boat veterans savagely deny any heroism on their part during the war, I am vastly understating their position and their passion.

@razark: Where the hell did all these ants come from????:D

[rubenandthejets]

Whenever I see the rising sun ensign of the IJN I think of the black vans spewing anti foriegner propaganda at 140 decibels.

That flag has been adopted by the Japanese revisionists and ultra nationalists, the people who deny the Rape of Nanking and every year push for changes to the history textbooks to paint the "Great Pacific War"
in ever rosier hues.

It is an appropriate symbol in the game, a historical combat simulator.

At least Germany came to terms with its past and made ammends. Japan is still for the most part ingnorant or in denial.

[Rockin Robbins]

I think both Japan and Germany stand as shining examples that no nations are irredeemable, that war need not be about conquest, and that the losers of the wars need not to be destroyed utterly, but given the means and guidance to raise themselves up again in the family of nations and then be left alone to stand on their own, once again the equal to the United States, France, China, Russia, the United Kingdom or any other country on earth.

And they both stand now as first-rate citizens, needing to apologize to no one, contributing to the welfare of all nations, seeking to subjugate none, both respecting and being respected without taint from their past.

You know, Germany and Japan won World War II in a much more profound way than if they had been able to obtain military victory. Both are a hundred times greater a nation than they would have been had their rogue leaders been able to establish their twisted will.

It could well have been Britain, or France, or the United States who came under the domination of a slavering totalitarian despot instead of Germany. Hitlerism had very little to do with Germany, except that Germany was a suitable host for the disease.

I believe the United States might have been a good host as well, but Germany with her hyperinflation, past defeat in WWI, Versailles reparations, rampant socialist and communist elements and anti-Jewish regions had the same effect on Nazism as gasoline on a fire. I believe other countries could have burned as well.

I wonder if another country, defeated in war, dedicated to such despicable aims, would have become the great nation either Germany or Japan has. Their people are magnificent!

[AVGWarhawk]

At least Germany came to terms with its past and made ammends. Japan is still for the most part ingnorant or in denial.

Japan did just recently apologize for the Batan Death March. Interesting they did so.

[Akula4745]

I have a very simple solution that has never been brought up or tried, to settle this once and for all. :yep:

Pray tell what, FW?

[FIREWALL]

Japan did just recently apologize for the Batan Death March. Interesting they did so.

Their scared ****less with NK lobing missles their direction. :haha:

[FIREWALL]

Pray tell what, FW?

Let NEAL STEVENS the owner of this website do a poll for 30 days so a broad numbership can vote.

No posting. Just 1 vote. And end this once and for all.


Simple and Final. :shucks:

[Dowly]

Let NEAL STEVENS the owner of this website do a poll for 30 days so a broad numbership can vote.

No posting. Just 1 vote. And end this once and for all.


Simple and Final. :shucks:

Sounds like a plan. :yeah:

[Highbury]

But a vote on what? If swastikas will be allowed on the forums? What about mods containing swastikas? What about the Rising Sun.. what about the asinine objectors we are sure to have that will say the <insert your choice of flag or symbol here> is offensive?

Do we have a vote for each issue?

The truth is, it is a non-issue. What we mod into our own games is up to us, nobody else has to see it nor should they care. As for what goes on the forums, (this debate DID start over someone having a swastika in a recruiting poster as a sig) if you think someone's sig or post is in bad taste then report it. Let those who run the site decide that. They are smart people, I trust them to make a good choice. I also know that if I object to their decision it is a gaming forum.. not real life...

[razark]

Let NEAL STEVENS the owner of this website do a poll for 30 days so a broad numbership can vote.


Sounds good to me. The thought had crossed my mind as well. Unless Neal wants to make a declaration.

Razark

[sunvalleyslim]

Can't say I've seen any pro nazism posted here.....Not that it has, just haven't seen any. We are all here to simulate War and Submarines. I have grown up here in the U.S. seeing the Nazi Symbols. I have always thought the German Uniforms were some of the best looking. I think the Greman Nazi Flag was a beautiful design.
However I have never believed what Hilter and Nazi Germany did was right. I am only here in my own home and computer simulating what it was to be a U-Boat Kapt. To me if you have a problem with the symbols of a long ago defeated country maybe you shouldn't play the game simply because you are simulating death and destruction.......I don't think SH3 is going to make a bunch of NeoNazis out of us......I think the sanity of players here is far greater than kids playing "GTA".....merely MHO

[Armistead]

This is so silly.

Someone needs to make a politically correct German sub....and be creative....just use smiley faces.

[mookiemookie]

I have always thought the German Uniforms were some of the best looking.

Me too. Hugo Boss designed them. :know:

[Rockin Robbins]

This is so silly.

Someone needs to make a politically correct German sub....and be creative....just use smiley faces.
:har: I still vote for teddy bears.

Look, voting on right and wrong IS just plain silly. I don't seek to restrict anybody's behavior, just to set the table on how we'll think about these things. This is a good group, not in need of set rules, which will always have some kind of defect or quibbling point. Oftentimes the rule is much worse than the problem it seeks to address.

I don't see a large quantity of questionable signatures or posts or attitudes here. The Grey Wolves, for instance on one of their GWX4 preview videos, chose to put a pawprint on their German flag. In other instances they have used swastikas, but clearly in historically appropriate ways.

But democracy doesn't work for right and wrong. Democracy is two cats and a mouse voting over what's for dinner. Right and wrong is established by authority, which alone can protect the rights of minorities.

If the lawmaking authority is popularly elected, the government is called a republic: the best form of government so far devised. Democracy sucks. It would suck here. Better to let Neal make up his mind and make a rule than have a silly poll of self-interest and call it an informed and responsible vote.

For myself, I'm not asking for any new rules. All I want is for people to think about how they look when they paint themselves red and black with strange angular symbols used in the past for systematic genocide and intimidation. I want them to think about how they wish to be viewed.

I do not wish to require them to make the right decision.

[Joe S]

When I was a young child, say 6 or 8 years old , the sight of the swastika would bring a wave of anxiety over me. It was associated with Hitler and the Nazis and all the evil that they did as I learned from my parents and what I saw on TV. My interest in WWII ultimately led to me collecting World War Two militaria, including Third Reich swords, medals, etc. Now, the sight of the swastika no longer results in the emotional reaction that I once had. Occasionally, however, I get a relapse of that reaction and it is amazing how that sense of fear or dread can still reappear. At any rate, this is an individual choice. If you are offended by the sight of the Hakenkreuz then by all means dont use it. If it does not offend you, then download it and use it if you want to. As long as you do not wear it publicly or flaunt it in someone else's face, I dont think its anybody elses business. I also build model planes and tanks, etc, and see nothing at all wrong with putting swastika decals on a model where historically accurate.

We all have to be sensitive to those who lost everything due to the Nazis and have some respect for the victims of their hatred. The publishers of the sim obviously did not want the use of the Swastica to be an issue so they left it out, which is exactly what I would have done.

One more comment, a great many books on the subject state that U-boat crews who were captured and interrogated were almost always described as fanatical Nazis. I dont know that I believe that they all were fanatical Nazis, but that is how the British apparently viewed them. Joe S

[FIREWALL]

Personally, I don't see the Swastika any more or less offensive than the Rising Sun or Hammer & Sickle when used in a Mod or Role Playing use.

Hell ! In 5yrs there will probably be more flags or insignia's on the list in new Sims. :haha:

[mookiemookie]

One more comment, a great many books on the subject state that U-boat crews who were captured and interrogated were almost always described as fanatical Nazis. I dont know that I believe that they all were fanatical Nazis, but that is how the British apparently viewed them. Joe S

Of course they said that. It's much easier to garner public support for your war when you paint the bad guys as inhuman monsters.

[Torplexed]

This is so silly.

Someone needs to make a politically correct German sub....and be creative....just use smiley faces.

Groovy man...:cool:

http://pyxis.homestead.com/U1970.jpg

[Rockin Robbins]

Was it Jimbuna who quoted a section of a captured German crew interrogation by the British? It was hilarious! The British had already figured out what sort of comic book martinets the German Crew was and just stuffed the real people into their already prepared mold. They needed a lot of forcing to make them fit, but what of it!:woot:

They especially made light of the crew's girlie pictures and racy magazines. As if every British sub didn't have the same thing going on! (after all, how else would they know where the stuff was hidden hehe) But no, the German crew was especially crude and had literature of no cultural value whatever (sniff, sniff). Monty Python had a lot of truth in it.

Yup, tried to paint the Germans as a bunch of monsters and just made themselves look silly.

[Buddahaid]

I've been thinking on this all day and I'll agree, as a sig, it's at least in bad taste. But I also wonder if Germany outlawing it's use is wrongheaded? Yes, the nation would love to live it down and make it go away, but it also did really happen and nothing can take that away. It seems to amount to covering your eyes with your hands and declaring it gone. In any case, why not let the current nazi's use it? It makes them easy to spot and they're still all over the place, at least in the USA.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rising sun flag the Japanese maritime flag, and still in use today? I recall seeing it recently flying on the stern of a ship in a documentary about finding a sunken I-400.

Buddahaid

[owner20071963]

Guys and Gentlemen as We are,

Please Please Please Note,
Silent Hunter Is A GAME,

Not to be Linked to REAL LIFE,
I can tell You all in real Life? I've saved many,
But I Choose this GAME to Enjoy it,
Not As A Tool To Replay REAL LIFE,
History as We Learn Is Done,
Gentleman. It Is A Game ,,
Our Website Now has over 150 Europeans
Germans,French,Italians,
This Is A Post started not For the Game Itself,
Just to cause ., Public Opinion on A Game?
Correct RR???
Enjoy the Game for what it gives Us,
Play It Or Do not Post
Simple :salute:

[Highbury]

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rising sun flag the Japanese maritime flag, and still in use today? I recall seeing it recently flying on the stern of a ship in a documentary about finding a sunken I-400.

Buddahaid

It is indeed still the flag of the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Forces, which is what they call their Navy now. It is however viewed by others as synonymous with Japanese militarism in WW2. This was shown when Japanese fans at the Olympics were warned not to wave them, by the Chinese Embassy, as it might illicit bad feelings from the Chinese.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUST35118820080808

[XLjedi]

It is a game on the one hand...

It's a history lesson on the other. I don't like erasing or editing parts of history books. If you fight the Germans in WWII you're going to come across a swastika.

However, excluding the markings from the vanilla SH3/4 doesn't phase me a lot due to the fact that the most famous/infamous boats had no such markings. ...and from the books I've read it seems as though a number of the boat captains resisted (or at least privately resented) the politics and practices of the Nazis.

To me, a more noticeable omission would've been to exclude the red devil, swordfish, bull, or olympic rings. Personally, the rings are my favorite because they were said to be used by a number of boats and not necessarily affiliated with a single captain or crew.

[goldorak]

In my opinion, the swastika means nothing other than... well as symbol of a nation that fell years ago... It had other meaning before the war.

Heres what wikipedia has to say about the Swastika.

The swastika (from Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) svástika स्वस्तिक) is an equilateral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilateral) cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross) with its arms bent at right angles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle#Types_of_angles), in either right-facing (卐) form or its mirrored left-facing (卍) form. Archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates from the Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) period. It occurs mainly in the modern day culture of India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_India), sometimes as a geometrical motif and sometimes as a religious symbol. It remains widely used in Eastern religions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_religions) / Dharmic religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmic_religion) such as Hinduism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism), Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism) and Jainism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism).
Though once commonly used all over much of the world without stigma, because of its iconic usage in Nazi Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany) the symbol has become stigmatized in the Western world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world), and it has notably been outlawed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_%C2%A7_86a) in Germany if used as symbol of Nazism. Usage of the sign by religious groups is tolerated. Many modern far right and neo-nazi groups such as Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaner_Weerstandsbeweging) or Russian National Unity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity) use stylised swastikas or similar symbols.

so it use to be a good thing, a religious symbol, then it was turnt into the National german workers partys symbol.

So what, maybe in a thousand years sensibilities in europe will be so that the use of the svastika symbol won't be given second thought (and everybody will think of its religous symbolism forgetting what it actually represented for 15 years in the 20th century). But right now, not even a century has passed since the end of WW2 and all of the atrocities comitted by a regime whose symbol is the svastika.
These things just don't dissapear overnight you know ?

[Rockin Robbins]

Owner, the attributes of the game have never been questioned or even discussed in my posts. I've talked only about attributes of Subsim members and the propriety of wrapping oneself in the Nazi emblem. No my thread is not to "started not For the Game Itself, Just to cause ., Public Opinion on A Game?" whatever that means.:06:

I have no problem whatever with Nazi emblems used in a historical context within the game. I understand and agree with Ubi's decision to avoid that. I understand and agree with modders' efforts to produce options to restore them. They existed. Their existence within a simulation is justified. I enjoy playing the U-Boat side of SH4UBM and SH3.

The rising sun is a national, not a party flag and as such is just as rehabilitated as the Japanese and German people. It wouldn't be appropriate to question the propriety of its use. Respect for the people of the nations of Germany and Japan dictates that we allow them to choose their own flags.

[Jimbuna]

Was it Jimbuna who quoted a section of a captured German crew interrogation by the British? It was hilarious! The British had already figured out what sort of comic book martinets the German Crew was and just stuffed the real people into their already prepared mold. They needed a lot of forcing to make them fit, but what of it!:woot:

They especially made light of the crew's girlie pictures and racy magazines. As if every British sub didn't have the same thing going on! (after all, how else would they know where the stuff was hidden hehe) But no, the German crew was especially crude and had literature of no cultural value whatever (sniff, sniff). Monty Python had a lot of truth in it.

Yup, tried to paint the Germans as a bunch of monsters and just made themselves look silly.

No....not me, but I do vaguely recall the thread you are referring to.

[Rockin Robbins]

I'd love it if you or somebody could find it and paste the quote here. It was priceless!

[Jimbuna]

I'd love it if you or somebody could find it and paste the quote here. It was priceless!

Without a title or rough guesstimate of date/contributors, would be like looking for a needle in a haystack :hmmm:

[mookiemookie]

Without a title or rough guesstimate of date/contributors, would be like looking for a needle in a haystack :hmmm:

"Among personal property captured from U 570" were a number of parodies, skits and poems, all of an unrelievedly coarse and obscene nature, there being scarcely a single redeeming witty phrase in the whole. A strong undercurrent of unashamed blasphemy was apparent, and may well be a result of modern Hitler Youth training."

From this thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=150058) referencing this Interrogation report (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570INT.htm). :know:

[Rockin Robbins]

Wooo Hooo! Thank you mookie. That was well worth dredging up. From the self-mocking tone of Churchill's "U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs," I don't think he bought into that claptrap.

But the tone of the interrogation report shows that someone in Britain was a bit delusional. Wonder if they read it after the war and were embarrassed?

[Armistead]

You think this is bad. I remember Sid Meyer's Gettysburg years ago and the many emblems squads used, but how can you take the confederate flag out of a Civil War game. To me it's the same, how can you take any true emblems of war out of a historically correct game.

I collect Civil War, am a Civil War re-enactor. I respect Southern history..as history. Simply, I have no problem with any emblem in itself. I have two original battleflags hanging in my basement along with all the stuff I collect and dig up. But you'll never see a confederate flag hanging in my front yard or a southern rights bumper sticker on my car. I accept we lost the war of Northern Aggresssion.;)

However, with marketing, placing games on shelves I guess you have to be correct, so we couldn't blame Ubi for that, but as long as people use emblems historically correct there should be no problems with modders adding them.

[Rockin Robbins]

Actually, the American Civil War is a very strange and interesting case. The North won the military struggle, and then sought to reincorporate the South.

Democrats from the South promptly took over the White House and resumed a very prominent place in the House and Senate. So they were able to keep laws relating to universal rights and promoting the security and civil rights of blacks from being enforced. In fact, as recounted in The Bloody Shirt: terror after Appomattox, by Stephen Budiansky, the "defeated" southerners waged a terror campaign worthy of the Taliban for the next 60 years, denying freed slaves any freedom at all and killing any who "stepped out of line."

Fortunately, a reinvasion by northerners seeking sunshine and lower costs of living decimated the south once again during the 1960's, 70's and 80's (which I am a part of:)), bringing the south securely into the national concept that all men are created equal.

But even today, everyone knows that the northern carpetbaggers goverening the south after the war were all cheating and killing thieves who needed to be put down by justified violence. Hogwash! They were enforcing the laws. While they were here we had black property owners, Senators, Representatives, Governors, local officials of all kinds doing good jobs. Once the terror campaigns held sway, all that was gone and slavery in all but name was reinstituted until the middle 1960's.

Read the book. What you know about the south is dead wrong, a false legend created by liars, killers and thieves who snatched victory from resounding military defeat in the American Civil War. What an amazing story! Read the book.

A good friend of mine is a Civil War reenactor. He was a southerner for a long time, but got tired of sitting around waiting to be asked to take part. He saw the light, bought Union regalia and now is in great demand for every event. He loves it! And he has a complete uniform and equipment for both sides. So you can see that there is no bad blood between the two sides within Civil War reenactors. They simply share a fascinating hobby that educates all of us.

[Jimbuna]

From this thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=150058) referencing this Interrogation report (http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570INT.htm). :know:

Well done mookie...nice find http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

So it wasn't me http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/scream.gif

Sad to see the thread deteriorate like it did....was enjoying my dialogue with AVG.

[Kipparikalle]

Congraturations, you somehow managed to derail this thread so succesfully, that it has gone from discussing about swastikas to American Civil War.


70% - 79.2% of the world population is fine with the swastikas being used in games. Period

[Armistead]

I loved being a part of the movie Gettysburg and God's and Generals, although the Gettysburg experience was much better. Can't say I ever saw myself on film, but the experience outside of the movie was great.
I think Gettysburg was so much better because the actors loved history.

Your friend must have been in a poorly run group. I could go to an event almost every weekend. Almost every event that takes place requires both groups. I actually have my GGG pappy's sword. No blue uniform will grace this body.

I'm in a calvary unit. What was funny in Gettysburg during a practice charge where we clashed, I popped someone reasonable hard, but not unusual for what we do. Off SHE plops off her horse. When her hat came off only then did I realize she was a girl. I was so sorry, but we southerners keep our girls back at the fires cooking.

For me it's a weekend thing, but you would be surprised at how many it becomes a total lifestyle. The fun things are the big Balls..nothing beats southern women in those dresses.

As for politics....that debate could on forever and I tend to refrain..:salute:

[Armistead]

Congraturations, you somehow managed to derail this thread so succesfully, that it has gone from discussing about swastikas to American Civil War.


70% - 79.2% of the world population is fine with the swastikas being used in games. Period


:haha:

[Kipparikalle]

Prove me wrong

[Task Force]

I believe your right... the swastika is realy no difference to any other flag in my opinion, it becomes a bad thing when your put a bad meaning to it.

[Armistead]

Prove me wrong

We're simply comparing other instances where this comes up and how gaming companies manage it and how community members often resolve the differences with common sense. A little research on American history may resolve why it was brought up.;)

[Armistead]

I believe your right... the swastika is realy no difference to any other flag in my opinion, it becomes a bad thing when your put a bad meaning to it.

When people put things in proper historical perspective flags and symbols aren't usually a problem. Most wouldn't have a problem with a Swastika being correctly used in a game, but would have a problem with Skinheads waving them in their face on the road...

The same reason my Confederate flag stays in the truck on the way to a re-enacting event and not flying off a 10ft pole off my bumper...not that you still can't see plenty of that driving into a Nascar race....but I'm paying more attention to all the girls tops coming off.

[Onkel Neal]

You think this is bad. I remember Sid Meyer's Gettysburg years ago and the many emblems squads used, but how can you take the confederate flag out of a Civil War game. To me it's the same, how can you take any true emblems of war out of a historically correct game.

I collect Civil War, am a Civil War re-enactor. I respect Southern history..as history. Simply, I have no problem with any emblem in itself. I have two original battleflags hanging in my basement along with all the stuff I collect and dig up. But you'll never see a confederate flag hanging in my front yard or a southern rights bumper sticker on my car. I accept we lost the war of Northern Aggresssion.;)

However, with marketing, placing games on shelves I guess you have to be correct, so we couldn't blame Ubi for that, but as long as people use emblems historically correct there should be no problems with modders adding them .

Well said, I agree. And as a Southerner, I think it's obvious that the Civil War was a plainly BAD idea for the South, and although the rebel flag has a kind of cool appeal, I don't feel compelled to defend the South's actions. Actually, Sam Houston was the only man in Texas with any brains in 1861.

Houston was governor of Texas when the Confederates, in convention, declared its withdrawal from the Union. The convention officially informed the governor of the act, and that they had instructed their appointed delegates to ask for the admission of Texas into the Southern Confederacy. To this communication Houston promptly replied, in substance, that the convention had transcended its delegated powers; that its acts were usurpations; and that he should consider it his duty to act as governor until the legislature of the State should take action in the matter, regardless of all alleged changes in the political relations of the State. This reply produced great excitement. Believing the governor was about to assemble the militia of the State to resist the convention, that body passed an ordinance (March 8, 1861) which defied his authority. Then the venerable Houston, in a stirring address to the people, recounted his services and his trials, and complained bitterly of the " usurpations " of the convention, which, he said, " had transferred the people, like sheep from the shambles, from the Union to an unlawful league." Loving Texas too well to do aught that should kindle civil war upon its soil, he said he should not attempt, under the circumstances, to exercise his authority as governor, nor would he take the oath of allegiance to the Southern Confederacy. He took no part in public life after this act.




Sounds good to me. The thought had crossed my mind as well. Unless Neal wants to make a declaration.

Razark

I would rather not make any kind of declaration other than the current one we have laid out in the past on this subject, and that is, the nazi symbol is not a problem as long as it is in a historical context and not a political statement.

I prefer to see less of Hitler's logo, but that's just me. As long as we do not have an abundance of people displaying large swastikas as political statements, we should be ok.


I also know this subject, as well as many others, will be raised from time to time. Some people will have strong feelings about it but as long as we all agree to discuss it civilly, we're good.

thx
Neal

[sunvalleyslim]

Thanks Neal.............IMHO,....... sound advice :salute: :salute: :salute:

[goldorak]

I would rather not make any kind of declaration other than the current one we have laid out in the past on this subject, and that is, the nazi symbol is not a problem as long as it is in a historical context and not a political statement.

I prefer to see less of Hitler's logo, but that's just me. As long as we do not have an abundance of people displaying large swastikas as political statements, we should be ok.


I also know this subject, as well as many others, will be raised from time to time. Some people will have strong feelings about it but as long as we all agree to discuss it civilly, we're good.

thx
Neal

Having nazi symbology in one's signature is not what I would consider "historical context". Its more like an endorsement of the ideology than anything else. In this specific case censorship or a well defined forum rule that establishes that one cannot use nazi symbols in one's signature should be welcomed and enforced.

[tomoose]

I would rather not make any kind of declaration other than the current one we have laid out in the past on this subject, and that is, the nazi symbol is not a problem as long as it is in a historical context and not a political statement.

I prefer to see less of Hitler's logo, but that's just me. As long as we do not have an abundance of people displaying large swastikas as political statements, we should be ok.


I also know this subject, as well as many others, will be raised from time to time. Some people will have strong feelings about it but as long as we all agree to discuss it civilly, we're good.Hear, hear Neal. I think you summed it up nicely. As to the signature blocks and swastikas that's another issue (e.g. suppose someone has a pic of their chosen U-boat commander and there's a nazi symbol in the background, is that political or simply a historical picture?) ergo I think should be dealt with on a case by case basis and hopefully the final decision will be respected.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

My view of the swastika or any other Nazi symbol is this:SO WHAT!!!!! The war ended many years ago, and its not like you have to download a mod that has the swastika in. If there is one and you find it offencive for some reason then the answer is simple don't download it or find a way to remove it so you don't have to look at it.:up: And I think that most Germans during the war weren't really Nazis, it was a time of conform or be thown in jail or shot.:nope: I have a book called Agent ZigZag, its about an Englishman by the name of Eddie Chapman who wound up working first for the Abwehr and then for MI5 and it showed just how much some of the German people didn't care much for Hitler or the rest of his gang. It even has a photo of graffiti in the attic of La Bretonniere, the German Spy school in Nantes, France. The graffiti is Adolf caricatured as a carrot.:rotfl:And you know what else there are more iron crosses painted on German vehicals from WW2 than there are swastikas. So if you don't like the swastika or any other Nazi symbol, thats your problem.

[Armistead]

Having nazi symbology in one's signature is not what I would consider "historical context". Its more like an endorsement of the ideology than anything else. In this specific case censorship or a well defined forum rule that establishes that one cannot use nazi symbols in one's signature should be welcomed and enforced.

:down:

[Rockin Robbins]

And again, my position, which I have now clearly stated four times is being willfully distorted by those who can't argue against my position so they argue against something else.

My position: already stated. The swastika, when used in an environmental context, inside the game, is a reflection of historical fact and is used appropriately there. Inside the game, the swastika only reflects reality and makes no statement of your personal beliefs.

However, the use of Nazi symbols in your signature pic, or the use of Nazi related terminology such as "JewDogKiller" for a name on Subsim is your identity to others on Subsim, is wrapping yourself in that ideology and endorsing it. These are equivalent actions. If you do this, you should not be surprised if I call you out as being grossly inappropriate, and I will do so every time I see it. You should not be surprised if others call you a Nazi. For my part, I shall confine myself to saying you have very bad judgment. I do this, not for myself, because I have a very thick skin and don't care how stupid some may appear, but in the name of others, who have convinced me against my normal inclination for restraint. That is detailed above.

I don't call for any new Subsim rules. We have enough, thank you, and any rule made is likely to be worse than the disease. Over at Ubi forums, for instance, they ban ALL Nazi symbolism, even where historically justified. All I want is for people to think about what their signature, their Subsim identity, is saying about their beliefs and attitudes toward others.

If you really idolize the Third Reich and want to kill all the Jews, Catholics, Gypsies, southern Europeans, Jehovah's Witnesses, blacks and assorted others on Earth, by all means, adopt the Nazi flag as a siggy pic, take on a disgusting name and let us all know who you are. That's much less dangerous than remaining undetected. And we can all have a good laugh at you just before we put you on ignore.

But throwing the baby out with the bathwater is human tradition. Just look at all the people around here pretending that I am saying that no display of Nazi regalia is appropriate. Of course, their argument (unspoken) is that if it's proper in the game, it is proper to have the smiling officer, Fuhrer's medals, uniformed wife, all under the flowing Nazi flag as your signature too. After all, nothing means anything, it's all a game, if you have a problem (perform some kind of impossible physical activity with yourself). Of course, a logical extension of that line of thinking is that "JewDogKiller" would be a perfectly acceptable name, as nobody is actually trying to kill Jews here, don't be silly, the war was over 60 years ago, blah, blah, blah.

The reason my views are being distorted and the reason everyone is arguing against another position entirely is that they are unable to effectively disagree with my REAL position. It's called the straw man fallacy in debate, and it is nothing but an endorsement of my real position. After all, you will choose every time not to disagree with a position you agree with.

Wow! Everyone has demonstrated agreement with me then. That's good.:D

[mookiemookie]

I don't see that having a kriegsmarine poster in your signature automatically makes you a Nazi. SH3 is a game about the U-boat arm of the kriegsmarine, and thus a kriegsmarine poster is in the spirit of what the game is about. If it were one of the Nazi propaganda posters about the "Jewish threat" or some such nonsense in someones signature, then I would be more inclined to agree. However, a U-boat fan with a Kriegsmarine recruiting poster in his signature is not a whole lot different than a fleet boat fan with a U.S. Navy submarine service recruiting poster in his sig.

[tater]

Having nazi symbology in one's signature is not what I would consider "historical context". Its more like an endorsement of the ideology than anything else. In this specific case censorship or a well defined forum rule that establishes that one cannot use nazi symbols in one's signature should be welcomed and enforced.

This is true.

I suppose one could argue that an unaltered image of a boat with a flag on it, or a skipper with a nazi symbol around his neck, etc would be within some sort of historical context, but ADDING the symbols in photoshop to pictures that lack them... shows some political pathology, IMHO.

Not someone I'd invite to a dinner party, likely (and you should see the various political parties go at it over my dinner table sometimes ;) ). Course that sort might not leave mom's basement often anyway, even if invited out.

tater

PS—I'd say the same about Soviet or other communist imagery, BTW, they bumped off rather a lot of people as well. That includes those morons wearing Che shirts.

[goldorak]

:down:

I suppose you would :yeah: if members of subsim started putting porn images in their signatures. Somehow I don't think so. If you're :down: because of free speech, well having free speech doesn't give you a free pass to say whatever you like. Try to write something that defamates a specific person and see how quickly you'll be sued, and free speech argument thrown by the side.

[Rockin Robbins]

I don't see that having a kriegsmarine poster in your signature automatically makes you a Nazi.Yup, I agree with that. Again, you are arguing against something that is not my postiion. A kriegsmarine poster doesn't have to contain and most often did not contain any Nazi overtones. The kriegsmarine looked upon itself as a professional occupation above politics.

Granted, politics did enter into their activities, sometimes by an enthusiastic Nazi demonstrating command abilities and being promoted, sometimes by imposition of an officer responsible for enforcing party loyalty. But I have no problem with the use of a kriegsmarine recruiting poster that doesn't have explicit and prominent Nazi overtones. Yes, it's possible that somewhere on the poster there might be a swastika or German flag. But it would not be the predominate message of the the poster, and so would fall under the protection of being historically appropriate.

http://www.u47.org/images/kriegsmarine/kriegsmarine_poster_2.jpg

THIS, however has the Nazi flag as its dominating element. It flies over the entire top of the poster and envelops the man. This symbolism is willful and intended to say that this man is devoted to and places himself voluntarily (I'm assuming this is supposed to be a recruiting poster) and "honorably" under glorious Nazi rule. "Join the Navy and be an elite part of the Fuhrer's glorious Reich." Here I'd say the word "Kriegsmarine" doesn't get the poster off the hook. It is like putting "Peace on Earth" on the bottom a "Kill the Jews" poster.

And it is not the same as most of the real Kriegsmarine posters that I have seen. They tend not to be grossly political in this manner.

[Mr.O'Bannon]

I would argue that any nations recruitment poster would contain a flag of that nation. The flags are put in the poster to appeal to the patriotic young men looking for adventure. And yes, most Germans at that time were patriotic. Germany has always had a strong heritage of arms. It is hard to get past the knee-jerk reaction that has been ingrained in all of us by years upon years of anti-German sentiment. Once you learn more about the worlds history, you start to see that maybe the problem is not the symbols but the prevalence of narcissists who are constantly trying to build a socialist utopia at all our expense. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao are all of the same mold. The real enemy is not the dead symbols of the past but the progressive, utopia aspiring ideaology that installs these despots. Who knows? The next evil symbol may already be here and we cannot see it yet, just like the Germans of the 1930's.

[AVGWarhawk]

I would argue that any nations recruitment poster would contain a flag of that nation.


Google images for WW2 recruitment posters. You will find many more without the flag then with the flag. Both sides. :03:

[Mr.O'Bannon]

Google images for WW2 recruitment posters. You will find many more without the flag then with the flag. Both sides. :03:
I don't disagree.

[Rockin Robbins]

I would argue that any nations recruitment poster would contain a flag of that nation.Mr. O'Bannon, you take a most unfortunately fallacious position there:


http://www.olive-drab.com/gallery/photos/manthegunsposter_sm.jpg http://www.olive-drab.com/gallery/photos/fivesullivanbrosposter_sm.jpg http://www.olive-drab.com/gallery/photos/cadetnursecorps_poster_sm.jpg http://www.olive-drab.com/gallery/photos/wishIwereaman_poster_sm.jpg

Nazi flags are more common in German posters than American flags on American recruitment posters, but it IS possible to find some without the Nazi banner their most prominent feature.

http://www.janmontyn.com/rolespics/kriegsmarine2.jpg http://www.janmontyn.com/rolespics/jeugdstorm.jpg http://www.divisionhg.com/hgimages/hgposter.jpg http://www.divisionhg.com/hgimages/luftposter.jpg
http://www.divisionhg.com/hgimages/ladyluftposter.jpg http://www.pzg.biz/pzg_fascist_poster_banner.jpg http://www.waffen-ss.no/poster/poster4.jpg

OK, that's enough. Now, what part of the rest of your post should anyone give credence to? Logic does not work on reality. It is or is not. In this case it is not necessary for a flag to be in a recruitment poster. Frankly, I find myself in agreement with the remainder of the post. It's just a shame you began so badly.

Also note that although the Luftwaffe poster has small swastikas on it, they are not the focus of the poster ,proclaiming "OUR Luftwaffe." Joining the Luftwaffe is defending home and hearth: your family, is what this poster is saying. In that context I personally don't have a problem with the swastikas there. Others might.

Also you ignore the fact that the Nazi emblem and flag are not the national flag and emblem of Germany, but a party symbol and flag. The Nazi flag is not the same as the Japanese flag or American flag or British flag. Yes, the Nazis sought to establish an equivalency there, but repeating a lie often enough does not make it true.

Naziism was a disease. The nationality was afflicted by the disease but did not become the disease. They are now cured.

[Mr.O'Bannon]

Mr. O'Bannon, you take a most unfortunately fallacious position there:


http://www.olive-drab.com/gallery/photos/manthegunsposter_sm.jpg http://www.olive-drab.com/gallery/photos/fivesullivanbrosposter_sm.jpg http://www.olive-drab.com/gallery/photos/cadetnursecorps_poster_sm.jpg http://www.olive-drab.com/gallery/photos/wishIwereaman_poster_sm.jpg

Nazi flags are more common in German posters than American flags on American recruitment posters, but it IS possible to find some without the Nazi banner their most prominent feature.

http://www.janmontyn.com/rolespics/kriegsmarine2.jpg http://www.janmontyn.com/rolespics/jeugdstorm.jpg http://www.divisionhg.com/hgimages/hgposter.jpg http://www.divisionhg.com/hgimages/luftposter.jpg
http://www.divisionhg.com/hgimages/ladyluftposter.jpg http://www.pzg.biz/pzg_fascist_poster_banner.jpg http://www.waffen-ss.no/poster/poster4.jpg

OK, that's enough. Now, what part of the rest of your posts should anyone give credence to? Logic does not work on reality. It is or is not. In this case it is not necessary for a flag to be in a recruitment poster.

Also note that although the Luftwaffe poster has small swastikas on it, they are not the focus of the poster ,proclaiming "OUR Luftwaffe." Joining the Luftwaffe is defending home and hearth: your family, is what this poster is saying. In that context I personally don't have a problem with the swastikas there. Others might.

Also you ignore the fact that the Nazi emblem and flag are not the national flag and emblem of Germany, but a party symbol and flag. The Nazi flag is not the same as the Japanese flag or American flag or British flag. Yes, the Nazis sought to establish an equivalency there, but repeating a lie often enough does not make it true.

Naziism was a disease. The nationality was afflicted by the disease but did not become the disease. They are now cured.
The swastika was the flag of Germany for many years, that cannot be disputed. For those who grew up in the third reich, that was their flag and they used it during the thirties and half of the forties. I don't need you to give credence to anything I post, because you have already proved to be highly excitable and prone to inciting drama by this ridiculous thread and the derailment of the other. I posted my opinion, that there are bigger things to worry about then the old symbols of WWII. We are all men here and within the confines of a u-boat game , a realistic swastika does not make me piss myself. As an American who believes in common sense, lets leave the thought crime laws to the rest of the world.

[DarkFish]

Also you ignore the fact that the Nazi emblem and flag are not the national flag and emblem of Germany, but a party symbol and flag. The Nazi flag is not the same as the Japanese flag or American flag or British flag. Yes, the Nazis sought to establish an equivalency there, but repeating a lie often enough does not make it true.It may not have been the 'official' national flag, but was pretty much used as such. The only instance I can remember where I've seen the 'official' national flag is the small shield on wehrmacht helmets. Almost all other flags I've seen on photos etc. are nazi flags.

I also note of the 7 german propaganda posters without nazi flags you show 3 are foreign recruiting posters (Dutch, Italian and Norwegian). It makes some sense that there are no nazi flags on those as the NSDAP wasn't active in these countries.

[tater]

Having nazi symbology in one's signature is not what I would consider "historical context". Its more like an endorsement of the ideology than anything else. In this specific case censorship or a well defined forum rule that establishes that one cannot use nazi symbols in one's signature should be welcomed and enforced.

I should add that I don't have a problem with people making whatever image is OK with Neal. "Free Speech" does not apply, this is a private setting.

In fact, it is a good indicator of who we are talking to. Someone who goes to the trouble of making a sig like that is not gonna be on my short list of people to hang out with (or probably the long one, either). Heck, I've never gone to the trouble of making ANY sig on any forum since there have been forums. Or a sig on usenet groups, back in the day :) Heck, the assigned avatar here is the only forum avatar I have, I don't do that, either.

[Rockin Robbins]

The swastika was the flag of Germany for many years, that cannot be disputed. For those who grew up in the third reich, that was their flag and they used it during the thirties and half of the forties. I don't need you to give credence to anything I post, because you have already proved to be highly excitable and prone to inciting drama by this ridiculous thread and the derailment of the other. I posted my opinion, that there are bigger things to worry about then the old symbols of WWII. We are all men here and within the confines of a u-boat game , a realistic swastika does not make me piss myself. As an American who believes in common sense, lets leave the thought crime laws to the rest of the world.

Are there bigger things to worry about for the family of Stephen Tyrone Johns? Perhaps you could travel to their home and explain how there are bigger things to worry about than "the old symbols of WWII." If you survive, you'll leave with a different opinion. These old impotent symbols continue to motivate a number of dangerous and vicious groups of people today. Adopting symbols of that dangerous delusion as personal identification implies agreement with these murderers of the present, as well as the Nazi thugs of the past.

I understand that you don't have a problem with that. I understand that rather than persuade people the correctness of your view, you believe substitution of personally disparaging remarks highlighted above will work as well. I understand that you are too enlightened to take your own side of this discussion. Your only alternative then is to personally attack me. That is tantamount to surrender. Thank you.

If the thread were ridiculous you would not be so actively participating in it.

And again, you are joining the throng, pretending that I am against ANY display of the Nazi flag or swastika. Even in my examples of what I think is permissible, I include depictions of the swastika. But, unable to find disagreement with my real position, you resort to attacking the old abused straw man, and then to personally attacking me. But I am the one who is "highly excitable and prone to inciting drama," hmmmmmmmm?:haha: Most entertaining! Thanks for contributing.

[Mr.O'Bannon]

I am not as outspoken as you, but in reading this board for awhile I haven't seen anything that causes me to think there may be a problem. If you are referring to the slain guard at the holocaust museum, I don't know how that ties in to the use of historical flags in a WWII game. There are sociopaths of every variety out there, and being sociopathic causes them to do evil to others, not using historical flags in a u-boat game. Excuse my bluntness, I am not disparaging you, but I just don't feel alarmed as you do.

[mookiemookie]

I am not as outspoken as you, but in reading this board for awhile I haven't seen anything that causes me to think there may be a problem. If you are referring to the slain guard at the holocaust museum, I don't know how that ties in to the use of historical flags in a WWII game. There are sociopaths of every variety out there, and being sociopathic causes them to do evil to others, not using historical flags in a u-boat game. Excuse my bluntness, I am not disparaging you, but I just don't feel alarmed as you do.

He's not talking about the use of historical flags in the game, just the use of Nazi symbolism in forum signatures.

[sharkbit]

.... and being sociopathic causes them to do evil to others, not using historical flags in a u-boat game.

I don't think Rockin Robbins has an issue in game. He keeps hammering home that he has a problem with it used in someone's signature. I don't think anyone has a problem with it in game. It is being used in a historical context.

My opinion, for what's it worth:
I too don't have an issue with it when used in game. I raise eyebrows when I see it used as a signature as well. I don't get as riled up about it as RR does, but that's just me. It is the internet afterall.
To me the signature usually says something about one's self to some degree. I'm not necessarily saying that if you have a swastika in your sig, you are following Nazi ideals in your own life, but it would make me wonder.

Someone has or used to have a signature with SS runes and the 2nd SS Division(or some other division-I can't remember which) and that really made my skin crawl. Someone called him out on it(maybe RR?-:hmmm:) and I believe he changed the runes but left the rest of the sig alone and explained his reasoning. Everytime I saw it though, it just made me wonder.

[FIREWALL]

I recommend everyone go back and read the last part of Post #56

It's the only post that counts. :yep: :up:

[Rockin Robbins]

It says that discussing the issue is fine. It says that the issue will be discussed from time to time. It calls on us to be civil. There's a problem here? I suggest you hit the report button then. Or the ignore button.

I think we have surprising agreement here. Nobody is insisting that their standards be enforced. Well, one said that would be acceptable, and it would have to be, for if Neal did what they do at SimHQ and outlawed all Nazi symbolism in all contexts, then we would accept his ruling or leave. This is not a democracy. Democracies don't tolerate minority opinions.

I am perfectly willing to default to freedom, both in your right use an image of your choosing for a signature pic and my right to say that such a choice is inappropriate and offensive. I don't see any sign that Subsim has a problem.

I do think that periodically it's good to examine the question of exactly what is appropriate and what is not. If it keeps someone without much knowledge of WWII from picking that cool looking (Nazi stuff has a very high cool factor. It is just imposing and striking), pic as a signature, unaware of what it means, then the thread is not silly, but very useful.

It's easy to forget that Naziism is alive and dangerous. Here are a few pics from a neo-Nazi rally in Columbia, South Carolina just a few years ago:

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Zirkle.jpg
Happy birthday, Dolf! We miss you! (kiss, kiss)

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/482078079_f5cfd9231c-1.jpg
Partial phone number in case you're interesting in learning the goose step. I hear it is good exercise!

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/482060058_b4850d51e3.jpg
Ain't that heartwarming, the good daddy and his little girls. Awwwwww!

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/482936615_8860a896ce-1.jpg
There you go! Siggy picture extraordinaire! Smile, kid! Don't worry, it's all harmless fun. All the REAL Nazis are gone....aren't they?

Yeah, these slimeballs are out there. According to Der Spiegel 6,000 of them marched in Dresden this February (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,607821,00.html). They rally under 3rd Reich banners and symbolism. They kill people and blow up innocent buildings. If you're one of them, please adopt an appropriate signature and siggy pic. If you're not, do you want to be associated with that?

[Aramike]

To me the signature usually says something about one's self to some degree.To me, all it's saying is that someone is playing as the skipper of a U-Boat. Considering that U-Boats flew the Nazi flag at the time in question, to me the meaning is obvious and harmless.

This is, to me, an example of how society has gotten way too comfortable with feeling offended. No longer do some people even bother to try to find the intent behind things - rather, they simply demand that things are changed. Frankly, I think it's more of a control issue than anything, but that's just me.

Certainly, this is a special case. The Nazi flag is almost universally accepted as a symbol of past evil. It represents a historical era which had seen great atrocities and the worst of mankind.

But that era DID happen. And, many (if not almost all) of us have played a game in the role of SUPPORTING the mission the flag represents.

Clearly, no one here supports Nazism (at least I hope). But, many here have immersed themselves in doing the "devil's work" as a U-Boat captain. How can THAT bit of historical context be reconciled as acceptable while the flag, AS A periphery, cannot?

[Aramike]

RR, your post certainly does highlight the evils of morons, but how is that relevent? No one is using the symbol in that context, and the actual context is clear.

What I'm curious is how the symbol used in a periphery is any worse than a signature that brags it killed X amount of tons of British shipping (and people to boot)...

Like I said, I think "offense" has become a code-word for "control".

[AVGWarhawk]

Clearly, no one here supports Nazism (at least I hope). But, many here have immersed themselves in doing the "devil's work" as a U-Boat captain. How can THAT bit of historical context be reconciled as acceptable while the flag, AS A periphery, cannot?

Damn fine question. :up: It is accepted that it (flag) is in game. Outside of a game the flag is something altogether different and not of historical immersion the player attempts to recreate in game.

Let's look at it this way, would anyone here drive down the road with the swastika painted on the door of the car? Is that any different than having it in a sig on the internet?

[Rockin Robbins]

Clearly, no one here supports Nazism (at least I hope).

But if they do, I've provided nice, wholesome siggy pic material!:har:

Hold it, here you go! A fine specimen of 4th Reich manhood!

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/482946369_4299df62b2.jpg
Fine siggy pic material:timeout:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Using a sig. with a swastika is the gaming forums is one thing, using it in the General Topics Forum is quite another.

Any sigs. with a swastika that I have seen have been in the gaming forums and in relation to a particular game. Anything blatant in the these forums have been dealt with\edited out in the past. Blatant being the swastika is very prominently featured.

[mookiemookie]

Clearly, no one here supports Nazism (at least I hope). But, many here have immersed themselves in doing the "devil's work" as a U-Boat captain. How can THAT bit of historical context be reconciled as acceptable while the flag, AS A periphery, cannot?

Because when I turn off the game, no one has died. No one has been injured. No damage has been done. The Nazis haven't come closer to conquering Europe. Playing SH3 doesn't further the Nazi's goals. I don't have to swear allegiance to the Fuehrer or the Fatherland to play SH3.

[Armistead]

If you trace any symbol enough someone could rightly say it's offensive. Should I say the American Flag is offensive because slavery existed under it for about a hundred years longer than it did under the Confederate Flag, for all the Indians that were murdered and robbed under it?...In truth it could be just offensive to many groups of people. Should we remove it from the game. We, like the Nazi's were just as brutal, only difference is we won, so it doesn't bother us....We would all stand and say we now know the difference..doesn't change the past history of those we conquered.

We should also remove the Russian flag for it's evil, the Spanish flag for it's evil,...and so on.

Behind every great nation lies an evil that was done, where life and property by war won the day.

I've never understood people that get so upset and don't understand the difference between those that play video games and those that do things in real life. Believe it or not 99% of people know the difference, the 1% that doesn't would still be acting the way they do video games or not.

What'ts silly is your mind knows all the symbols and reality and people pretend their need to be minds..er, screwed so they don't have to know about it as if they don't exist.

This is why we will eventually be limited from about everything, knowledge, truth, so we can all be politically correct. One person can come in and ruin anything today by screaming "you're all racist for this or that." when people simply want to immerse themselves into the reality of history.

[Rockin Robbins]

Yes, definitely. I'll bet Subsim wouldn't allow the one recruitment poster with the four swastikas in the General Forums, but it would be perfectly acceptable here.

Subsim has good rules. Most of the other forums have adopted no tolerance rules that just don't make sense when dealing with a game where World War II Germany is the subject matter.

Hats off to Neal Stevens, his love of freedom, his trust in his site members and his tolerance of those of us who push the limits sometimes.:salute:

[Armistead]

Using a sig. with a swastika is the gaming forums is one thing, using it in the General Topics Forum is quite another.

Any sigs. with a swastika that I have seen have been in the gaming forums and in relation to a particular game. Anything blatant in the these forums have been dealt with\edited out in the past. Blatant being the swastika is very prominently featured.

That man in a dress is offensive.....:haha::03:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Yes, definitely. I'll bet Subsim wouldn't allow the one recruitment poster with the four swastikas in the General Forums, but it would be perfectly acceptable here.


Not exactly, as mentioned in the gaming forums I have seen those sigs. with a swastika figured prominently are edited out or asked to tone it down. Is it flawless\perfect the way the issue is dealt with, not exactly, Neal himself admits this, but over the years it has for the most part been managed fairly well here at SUBSIM.

[Aramike]

Because when I turn off the game, no one has died. No one has been injured. No damage has been done. The Nazis haven't come closer to conquering Europe. Playing SH3 doesn't further the Nazi's goals. I don't have to swear allegiance to the Fuehrer or the Fatherland to play SH3.And when you have a signature on the Internet, in context, is any damage done?

You kind of made my point.

[AVGWarhawk]

That man in a dress is offensive.....:haha::03:

That is a kilt sir! :salute:

[mookiemookie]

And when you have a signature on the Internet, in context, is any damage done?

You kind of made my point.

I agree. :salute:

[Aramike]

Damn fine question. :up: It is accepted that it (flag) is in game. Outside of a game the flag is something altogether different and not of historical immersion the player attempts to recreate in game.

Let's look at it this way, would anyone here drive down the road with the swastika painted on the door of the car? Is that any different than having it in a sig on the internet?Good point. Let's rephrase it a bit though to see if we feel the same way, though?

Let's say someone's navigating the ocean in an historical U-Boat and flying the Nazi flag. Would the flag then seem out of place?

RR: That you keep posting photos of blatant Nazi garbage kind of makes the point against you - no one here is featuring the flag like that. If they were, I'd have little doubt that they'd be reprimanded for doing so.

In the end, it'a all about context.

[AVGWarhawk]

Good point. Let's rephrase it a bit though to see if we feel the same way, though?

Let's say someone's navigating the ocean in an historical U-Boat and flying the Nazi flag. Would the flag then seem out of place?

RR: That you keep posting photos of blatant Nazi garbage kind of makes the point against you - no one here is featuring the flag like that. If they were, I'd have little doubt that they'd be reprimanded for doing so.

In the end, it'a all about context.


Sure it is about context. RR's contention is in game the flag is fine it is after all a game and it is immersion for the simulation. However, outside of the game should the 'immersion' stop? I'm guess RR is thinking so.

[Rockin Robbins]

I'm merely providing a service for any Nazis who are considering joining Subsim.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/smileys/giggle.gif

And I thought it useful to contrast types of images and see if we agreed on which ones were okay and which ones not. I see one that is somewhere on the bad side of the gray area and all the rest not acceptable in my last couple of posts. Naw! His armband puts him off-limits, so all of them would not be acceptable.

However if Nazis are going to join us, they'd be doing us a favor by properly identifying themselves with one of my siggy resource pics.:woot:

[mookiemookie]

Sure it is about context. RR's contention is in game the flag is fine it is after all a game and it is immersion for the simulation. However, outside of the game should the 'immersion' stop? I'm guess RR is thinking so.

Are forums relating to the game "outside of the game?" :hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

Are forums relating to the game "outside of the game?" :hmmm:

Well, no as RDP stated. :03:

[Armistead]

Hitler's conception of lebensraumpolitik - the idea that Germans were innately entitled by virtue of their racial and cultural superiority to land belonging to others, and that they were thus morally free to take it by aggressive military action

- obviously had much in common with the 19th century American sense of 'Manifest Destiny.'

[Rockin Robbins]

The only problem was that the Germans were not racially and culturally very different from those they invaded. They basically invented those "differences" as an excuse.

How was a German different from a Czechoslovakian? Why, he even used the excuse that he was seeking to reunite the Germanic peoples of Czechoslovakia and Germany! Austria different? Holland was apparently different enough to run over with his Panzer divisions. With the exception of the African countries, he confined his efforts in Western Civilization, all similar cultures sharing key values.

As for the United States in the 19th century, we can only say that humans of the 19th century had little to do with our values. While we look back sometimes with a wistfulness for a simpler, more straightforward and honest time, that is mostly a crock. It was a brutal time, where might was right, force was the arbiter of truth and if you had the power to do something you claimed the right.

I can make no excuses for either the Americans or the Indians of that time. They were both insane by our standards. Interestingly an American hero, General William Tecumseh Sherman was the man responsible for the conscious policy of exterminating native tribes. He gets nowhere near the amount of notoriety he deserves, and not even John Trudell mentions his guilt. I guess his civil war halo covers his genocidal aspects...:down:

[ReallyDedPoet]

That is a kilt sir! :salute:

Yeah, what AVG said :DL So there :D

[Aramike]

Sure it is about context. RR's contention is in game the flag is fine it is after all a game and it is immersion for the simulation. However, outside of the game should the 'immersion' stop? I'm guess RR is thinking so.If one makes the argument that the immersion should stop when not in the game, what about the sigs containing the kill totals from within the game? People clearly take their in-game personas to these forums.

Ultimately, my point is this: while I personally would prefer to never see the Nazi flag, I'm not offended by its occassional use here because I understand what is meant by it (as do most of you). I've always believed that the world would be a better place if people didn't go out of their way to be offended by things when clearly there was no offense intended.

[DarkFish]

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/482946369_4299df62b2.jpg
well as propaganda it'd be rather counterproductive:rotfl:
I can't help seeing some resemblance to Himmler in Monty Pyton's 'Mr. Hilter' sketch:
http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc333/DF_3852/bla-2.jpg
"Sorry mein Führer I did not...[Slapped by Hilter] argh.. mein... Dicky old chum!"

[AVGWarhawk]

I've always believed that the world would be a better place if people didn't go out of their way to be offended by things when clearly there was no offense intended.


Two things, the offended more than likely does not know there was no offense intended.
In todays politically correct climate anything displayed intentionally to offend or not will more than likely offend someone anyway. It is the way the world is.

Look at your sig. There must be some reason for it. I do not carry one other than some text of useless dribble. Doing that keeps me out of trouble.

[Armistead]

The only problem was that the Germans were not racially and culturally very different from those they invaded. They basically invented those "differences" as an excuse.

How was a German different from a Czechoslovakian? Why, he even used the excuse that he was seeking to reunite the Germanic peoples of Czechoslovakia and Germany! Austria different? Holland was apparently different enough to run over with his Panzer divisions. With the exception of the African countries, he confined his efforts in Western Civilization, all similar cultures sharing key values.

As for the United States in the 19th century, we can only say that humans of the 19th century had little to do with our values. While we look back sometimes with a wistfulness for a simpler, more straightforward and honest time, that is mostly a crock. It was a brutal time, where might was right, force was the arbiter of truth and if you had the power to do something you claimed the right.

I can make no excuses for either the Americans or the Indians of that time. They were both insane by our standards. Interestingly an American hero, General William Tecumseh Sherman was the man responsible for the conscious policy of exterminating native tribes. He gets nowhere near the amount of notoriety he deserves, and not even John Trudell mentions his guilt. I guess his civil war halo covers his genocidal aspects...:down:

Let's not talk about Sherman, he burnt several of my relatives houses. Who know what untold wealth may have come my way.:-?

[DarkFish]

The only problem was that the Germans were not racially and culturally very different from those they invaded. They basically invented those "differences" as an excuse.

How was a German different from a Czechoslovakian? Why, he even used the excuse that he was seeking to reunite the Germanic peoples of Czechoslovakia and Germany! Austria different? Holland was apparently different enough to run over with his Panzer divisions.ehm, the nazis did not invent any differences, with most western-european countries they instead hammered on being quite similar! They invaded Holland 'cause we Dutchmen are germanic people too and thus needed to join Germany in some huge germanic super-state.
Or that's what they told... It's much more likely Hitler was just a megalomane psychopath aching for even more land to control...

[Rockin Robbins]

Let's not talk about Sherman, he burnt several of my relatives houses. Who know what untold wealth may have come my way.:-?
Yes, from an airplane it is still possible in some places to see the swath cut by his army as it made its way across the south to Savannah and up to South Carolina. My guess is that the South would have eliminated slavery on their own and the economic strata would have mixed anyway. That could just be wishful thinking.

[Jimbuna]

Because when I turn off the game, no one has died. No one has been injured. No damage has been done. The Nazis haven't come closer to conquering Europe. Playing SH3 doesn't further the Nazi's goals. I don't have to swear allegiance to the Fuehrer or the Fatherland to play SH3.

Precisely mookie http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif .....and just in case anyone has forgotten.....this is a game, nothing more, it amazes me what hypocritical spin some people have the brass neck to put forward sometimes.

Discussions and endless debates could easily be orchestrated about any of the participants in the last world war, depending on your sympathies, upbringing, beliefs or whatever. In fact as someone has already pointed out, go back long enough in the history of any nation and the likelihood is you'll discover some atrocity or evil that nation is absolutely guilty of.

It must be nice to focus in on one particular ideology of choice yet have the luxury of ignoring the rest in the same era.

Keep things balanced and in the context they were/are intended......a gaming context. After all this is supposed to be predominantly a gaming enthusiasts forum.

If I come across a sig or anything else on a forum that gives the impression it is supportive of Nazis, Fascists or whatever, I wouldn't hesitate in challenging or at the very least enquire as to the intended purpose of such offensive material.

I have seen very little if any of that here on SubSim and wholeheartedly agree with Neal when he posts the nazi symbol is not a problem as long as it is in a historical context and not a political statement.

The simple rule here folks as I've already said is.....keep things balanced and in the right context.

[Rockin Robbins]

Ooooof! The straw man takes another mighty blow! Too bad he doesn't bleed or anything to reward you for your skill in battle.:D

Looks like he might burn pretty well if you took the trouble to light him up.

[Rockin Robbins]

well as propaganda it'd be rather counterproductive:rotfl:
I can't help seeing some resemblance to Himmler in Monty Pyton's 'Mr.
"Sorry mein Führer I did not...[Slapped by Hilter] argh.. mein... Dicky old chum!"
Don't find him properly intimidating, eh? He's part of the new Reich recruiting campaign, "Let the Reich join YOU!" They're recruiting marshmallows now. Things aren't what they used to be...

[Armistead]

Yes, from an airplane it is still possible in some places to see the swath cut by his army as it made its way across the south to Savannah and up to South Carolina. My guess is that the South would have eliminated slavery on their own and the economic strata would have mixed anyway. That could just be wishful thinking.

Bad as slavery was, it was a US institution of culture. The property value of slaves was worth more than northern industry. To the south it would be equal to the government coming and taking all your money out of the bank. Obvious, the war wasn't started over slavery and Lincoln would have gladly let it continue if the southern states came back.

In a lot of ways the civil war was like WW2. The south started it and Sherman said from the start that northern industry would take over and we would be decimated. In reality why most southerners thought they died fighting against an invading force, they died for a few rich idiots.

[joeljansson]

New players join all the time; they have the same ideas and views that we had who joined two, three or more years ago, and discussed then. I see no problem with the new people bringing up the discussion again.

hes right im kinda new:yeah: and I say go buy the informing movie called "Hitler the rise of evil" watch that :yep: and you understand i watched it yesterday i learnead that hitler started by being invited to speak at a bar and then it grew and grew till it ended. Go buy it and you see. Ps hitler found a dog in ww1 the dog didnt do as he said and ran out hitler came out after him to hit him and 2 sec after hitler was out a bomb exploded where he and the other 20-30 guys ate. the dog died :wah:. learned anything:06: i know i have.:yep:

[Buddahaid]

Oooh! RR's pictures just got pulled for violating policy. :har: Guess will have to use Chaplin's double cross now.

Buddahaid

[AVGWarhawk]

Oooh! RR's pictures just got pulled for violating policy. :har: Guess will have to use Chaplin's double cross now.

Buddahaid'

Looks like he pulled it himself:hmmm:

[Buddahaid]

ehm, the nazis did not invent any differences, with most western-european countries they instead hammered on being quite similar! They invaded Holland 'cause we Dutchmen are germanic people too and thus needed to join Germany in some huge germanic super-state.
Or that's what they told... It's much more likely Hitler was just a megalomane psychopath aching for even more land to control...

My recall of western European history makes nearly all the peoples Germanic in origin. The barbarian invasion into the waning Western Roman Empire was made up of many Germanic tribes as in the Vandals, Visigoths, Ostragoths, Angels, Saxons, Lombardi, Franks, Burgundians, Alemanni, etc. These people eventually were absorbed into the Latin Catholic Church's sphere of influence. The pre-nation states of Neustria and Austrassia were formed as part of the Kingdom of the Franks which preshadowed modern France and Germany. Conversational latin diverged into french, spanish, italian, german and english. It's really pretty much just the Mohammedans and Celts that are not Germanic.

Buddahaid

[Rockin Robbins]

Good! Then I can delete the accursed things from my PhotoBucket page. I don't want 'em there.

OOPS! It was PhotoBucket that deleted them. The most despicable pic of all, of the daddy giving the Nazi salute holding his little daughter, is still there :har::haha::haha::har:! They sure don't seem to know what's objectionable, do they? I think they did a text search for Nazi or idiot, both words used in the pic names, nazi idiot1, nazi idiot2, etc. Seems like if they looked at the photos they'd have deleted the nice Nazi daddy.:rotfl:

But that gives me the excuse to delete the whole lot of 'em. Begone!

So at PhotoBucket, you can post blatantly Nazi pictures, but don't entitle them Nazi Idiot 1.! It's MOST insensitive of me to call a Nazi an idiot! http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/smileys/medium-smiley-064.gif

[Uber Gruber]

This is silly....if you look at ancient roman mosaics you will find the cross symbol adopted by the Nazis during their regime. There are many symbols that have existed since the dawn of human's ability to draw, most have been pirated by mal forces over history. Even the good old pagan cross itself was nicked by those christian types.

It is just plane nonsense to ban symbols for fear they might be associated with some bad guys.....surely we've much more important things to worry about ? If not give me a shout and i'll suggest something like 1 billion in abject poverty, glacial melt, or even the price of eggs.

[joeljansson]

the nazi cross is at an angel and therefore NOT the "real" swatsika:woot:closed chapter:yeah:

[tater]

Like RR I'm not in favor of banning language or symbols, not even in sigs.

That said, in the context of this game forum (talking about ww2) the symbol absolutely has meaning, and anyone using it in a sig is telling us something about himself whether he knows it or not.

It's sort of nice, really, it lets us know who's the sort who would turn in their neighbors if push came to shove.

Some will argue that statement, but that is absolutely a reasonable assumption that many might have viewing the sig. As RR said way up the thread, it's not about banning, it's about the people with the sigs thinking about how they wish to present themselves to the community.

[joeljansson]

im not one who would choose that mark for me or the world because of the bad history in 21 to 45 and some people are still dumb enough to think that nazi power will win still today.

[Rockin Robbins]

Uber, the Nazi flag may use a swastika, but it is a highly trademarked swastika with prescribed proportions, colors, orientation, making a Nazi flag or swastika unmistakable in identification and meaning. It was purposely designed to be a clear and unmistakable symbol of Nazi glory and not to be confused with any other swastika from history.

Interestingly, the Nazi salute is entirely different. It is nothing but the Roman military salute, one empire adopting the symbolism of another. OK, attempted empire.:D It was even referred to as the Roman salute by the Germans.

I feel chastened by the wise people at PhotoBucket. Just think of the poor Nazis who are feeling humiliated right now because I called them an idiot. Why, I'm as thoughtless as President O'bomba when he casually killed that poor helpless fly during a filmed interview. He even appeared to enjoy it. At least I am in good company. I think I'll go away now to hate myself for awhile.... I am an insensitive, horrible person, MUCH worse than a Nazi. PhotoBucket proves it!:damn:

[mookiemookie]

Interestingly, the Nazi salute is entirely different. It is nothing but the Roman military salute, one empire adopting the symbolism of another. OK, attempted empire.:D It was even referred to as the Roman salute by the Germans.


Pre-WW2, it was also the way American schoolchildren saluted the flag:

http://warrax.net/89/9/2.jpg

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, that sure wrecked a perfectly good salute!:oops:

[Stealhead]

My dad was in 1st grade in 1939 I can varify that school kids have never done that in front of the flag at school.That is a picture of some kids doing something that looks like a seig hail but that is not what it is.

[razark]

My dad was in 1st grade in 1939 I can varify that school kids have never done that in front of the flag at school.That is a picture of some kids doing something that looks like a seig hail but that is not what it is.

It's called the Bellamy Salute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute

Created by the guy who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance.

By the way, Bellamy was a socialist. Interesting bits of history...

Razark

[DarkFish]

My recall of western European history makes nearly all the peoples Germanic in origin. [...] It's really pretty much just the Mohammedans and Celts that are not Germanic.Only a small part of all the european countries are Germanic. The Netherlands, Flanders, Germany, Austria, Scandinavia and England could be considered Germanic. France, Wallonia, Spain and Italy are Latin, Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Brittany (and to some extent England too) are Celtic. Most countries in Eastern Europe are Slavic.
That said, of course it isn't as black and white as I describe it here. All of these cultures have been influenced by others, and also within these cultural groups there are a lot of differences.
Conversational latin diverged into french, spanish, italian, german and english.Nope, the Germanic languages, including German and English, all descend from Proto-Germanic.

[Sailor Steve]

Yep, English comes from German. French got thrown into the mix by the Normans, so we do have a lot of words descended from Latin, but relatively few.

[DarkFish]

I couldn't have said it better myself :up:
Indeed a lot of Germanic words originate from latin languages, and vice versa.
Only thing I can add is that English bears much more resemblance to Old-Norse and Dutch than to German.

[Armistead]

Like RR I'm not in favor of banning language or symbols, not even in sigs.

That said, in the context of this game forum (talking about ww2) the symbol absolutely has meaning, and anyone using it in a sig is telling us something about himself whether he knows it or not.

It's sort of nice, really, it lets us know who's the sort who would turn in their neighbors if push came to shove.

Some will argue that statement, but that is absolutely a reasonable assumption that many might have viewing the sig. As RR said way up the thread, it's not about banning, it's about the people with the sigs thinking about how they wish to present themselves to the community. I haven't checked it this same debate is taking place in the SH3 forum, but maybe that's a better place to debate it.


I would say they are immersed in the German aspect of the game. You imply they all belong to some skinhead group....that's silly. They don't bother me at all. It never even crossed my mind, until someone brought it up, because it's part of the game. It's something I would expect to see.

[Stealhead]

You did pick the most Nazi like salute if you look at the wiki page it is clear that the Bellamy is at a much sharper angle than that of the germans. though I have never heard anyone form this era that I know ever mention it so it must not have been done by everyone. Though in the end a Pledge of Allegiance or anything of simular nation is clearly a nationalistic symbol.

Though I do see your point that there where several generaly simular salutes based on the Roman style during this time peroid.
The Hitler salute is bar far the most aggressive and rigid.

[tater]

I would say they are immersed in the German aspect of the game. You imply they all belong to some skinhead group....that's silly. They don't bother me at all. It never even crossed my mind, until someone brought it up, because it's part of the game. It's something I would expect to see.

Skinheads? What little I know of skinheads is that they are not all neo-nazis. I never mentioned them.

I never implied that they all belonged to neo nazi groups.

If you read what I said, I said that it would be reasonable to assume that they might be.

A sig is voluntary. The owner choses what content to put in the sig.

Not everyone with a swastika in a sig is a neo-nazi or other nazi wannabe, but SOME are. The % that are is likely higher than those that don't have the swastika sig. People like me, who don't even play the germans in games, have a virtually zero chance of being neo-nazis. I play a lot of ww2 games online, and while the % of wannabe nazis or nazi hero-worshippers is small, it is not vanishingly small, and those who exclusively play them are the vast majority of such types. I've seen them for years in flight sims and ww2ol in game, in game forums, and OT forums. I have friends who play germans exclusively (fw-190 drivers, etc) who are clearly not, but they don't have swastikas forming anything more than a RL marking as part of the plane (tail in the case of LW).

Anyway, it creates the impression that you might be. Better, IMO, to "avoid the appearance of impropriety," as they say in the political world.

There are loads of people to hang out with in this world, and I'll not waste time with guys that see fit to add swastikas to sig files when the u-boat in the picture is fine without the additional image (I'm fine with it as a marking on the boat/plane/whatever, I'm only talking about adding them in a montage).

It's anyone's right to make what they want, but they shouldn't be surprised if they are judged by their CHOICE of symbology.
tater

[Buddahaid]

Only a small part of all the european countries are Germanic. The Netherlands, Flanders, Germany, Austria, Scandinavia and England could be considered Germanic. France, Wallonia, Spain and Italy are Latin, Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Brittany (and to some extent England too) are Celtic. Most countries in Eastern Europe are Slavic.
That said, of course it isn't as black and white as I describe it here. All of these cultures have been influenced by others, and also within these cultural groups there are a lot of differences.
Nope, the Germanic languages, including German and English, all descend from Proto-Germanic.

So your saying that the Franks were not a Germanic tribe? And that Clovis (a name that evolved into Louise) was not Germanic in origin? Anyway, it's very convoluted and arguments are difficult to support.

Buddahaid

[Stealhead]

It seems that this has split into two seprate threads one being the orginal the other being about the orgins of the germanic peoples.This is going to bcome one of those 100 pound tumors that you read about.

Ich bin deutscher Abstammung. Sind Sie? Was denkst du über das Eintauchen in Spielen? Mögen Sie Käse?:haha: Das ist lustig.

[mookiemookie]

Mögen Sie Käse?:haha: Das ist lustig.


http://www.cheesesupply.com/images/landhaus%20butterkase2.jpg

yum yum!

Isse butterkäse!

[Stealhead]

Ja, dass ist gut, Käse! Und mein Freund haben wir in einem dritten Thema: möchten Sie essen gut Käse? Oder möchten Sie gute Weißbier?

[Buddahaid]

My fault. I'll go away now and polish my Nazi flagpole. :haha:

Buddahaid

[Stealhead]

Sie erhalten den Käse, und ich werde das Weißbier, dann werden wir ein paar Frauen.



Its cool Buddahaid I guess it is in the same ball park.Until a moderator tells you to stop Id say you could keep going with your idea.
I was not trying to discourage you I was just pointing out that the therad was splitting into more than one thing kind of cool to me one idea or thought connects to another right?
Jetzt Ihre Käse essen, bevor ich tun!

[Buddahaid]

I can almost read all that even though I've never studied German. It is pretty close to English if you squint your eyes und pay attention to the sounds. By the way, I'm driving a sub on my desktop and posting on a Dell Inspiron 600m with mobo issues. Just so you know I'm not that lonely. :cry:

Buddahaid

[Armistead]

Skinheads? What little I know of skinheads is that they are not all neo-nazis. I never mentioned them.

I never implied that they all belonged to neo nazi groups.

If you read what I said, I said that it would be reasonable to assume that they might be.

A sig is voluntary. The owner choses what content to put in the sig.

Not everyone with a swastika in a sig is a neo-nazi or other nazi wannabe, but SOME are. The % that are is likely higher than those that don't have the swastika sig. People like me, who don't even play the germans in games, have a virtually zero chance of being neo-nazis. I play a lot of ww2 games online, and while the % of wannabe nazis or nazi hero-worshippers is small, it is not vanishingly small, and those who exclusively play them are the vast majority of such types. I've seen them for years in flight sims and ww2ol in game, in game forums, and OT forums. I have friends who play germans exclusively (fw-190 drivers, etc) who are clearly not, but they don't have swastikas forming anything more than a RL marking as part of the plane (tail in the case of LW).

Anyway, it creates the impression that you might be. Better, IMO, to "avoid the appearance of impropriety," as they say in the political world.

There are loads of people to hang out with in this world, and I'll not waste time with guys that see fit to add swastikas to sig files when the u-boat in the picture is fine without the additional image (I'm fine with it as a marking on the boat/plane/whatever, I'm only talking about adding them in a montage).

It's anyone's right to make what they want, but they shouldn't be surprised if they are judged by their CHOICE of symbology.
tater


You state you never implied, but in the same breath said we should assume they are...Why would you assume what someones character inside of a game is, when the object that offends is a historic part of that same game.

Inside a game people should be able to immerse themselves as long as they follow the rules and other than that people should butt out because you can't judge the motives of someone through a computer screen that has historical elements that were once offensive.

[Rockin Robbins]

There we go again with two fallacies.

Fallacy #1: failure to separate in-game display of the swastika, which is an environmental aspect saying nothing about the player other than he is playing a World War II game and has encountered or is playing the Germans, and use of Nazi symbolism in a sympathetic way in signature graphics outside the game in a forum like Subsim, which is a voluntary action.

The word "signature" implies a personal identification with whatever it contains and an agreement with its content. You would hardly sign your name "Charlie Brown" if you were really "Ellen Farr." The use of a male signature implies that you are male. Or at least it is reasonable for the reader to imply that you are male. Why would it be unreasonable for other personal attributes of a signature not to be similarly read? Symbols do mean things, even if we insist that they do not. When they are used voluntarily and substitute for an infinite list of signature graphics alternatives, they tend to be read as more important indicators of who the person is.

Fallacy #2: assuming that the Nazi movement was somehow German by necessity or character. The Nazis were just another totalitarian regime in a random country. Naziism was a disease, not an innate characteristic of the German people. Hitler was not different in character from Idi Amin, the "Butcher of Uganda," or Pol Pot, two other tinhorn dictators not worthy of respect or usage of their symbolism. The real Germany is the country you see today reunited at great cost, with the people of West Germany paying a significant personal price to repair grievous damage done to East Germany through 40 years of totalitarian socialism.

Other countries, including the United States could fall prey to a similar disease. Your diseases say nothing of your personal character. We no longer believe leprosy is a moral disease indicating personal depravity and deserving banishment from humanity. Naziism has no bearing on the character and greatness of Germanic people anywhere.

[DarkFish]

It seems that this has split into two seprate threads one being the orginal the other being about the orgins of the germanic peoples.This is going to bcome one of those 100 pound tumors that you read about.

Ich bin deutscher Abstammung. Sind Sie? Was denkst du über das Eintauchen in Spielen? Mögen Sie Käse?:haha: Das ist lustig.
You're right, buddahaid and I are slowly drifting away from the original subject;)
So as to not further change the thread's direction I'll not reply to Buddahaids last post

What do you think buddahaid? One of us start a new thread in the general topics forum "History and culture of the germanic peoples"?:rotfl:

Ich bin nicht Deutsch, aber ich sprech' es doch ganz nicht schlecht, meistens kann ich genau sagen was ich sagen will. Naja, Niederländisch gleicht natürlich auch auf Deutsch.
Und ja, ich mag gern Käse:up:
dann werden wir ein paar Frauen:o this means "then we'll become female". sounds like "wild night in bangkok";)

[Armistead]

RR......It's a in game sig, not a life sig, there is a difference ya know. You do know.....:know:

Next we'll be wanting to ban SS that have symbols on them because people can view them.

[Buddahaid]

Yep, English comes from German. French got thrown into the mix by the Normans, so we do have a lot of words descended from Latin, but relatively few.

I see I read more into this post than when I read it now, but, here is part of the Strasbourg Oath (842) as written, and then older and newer forms.

Strasbourg Oath
Pro deo amur et pro christian poblo et nostro commun saluament, d'ist di en avant, in quant Deus savir et podir me dunat, sI salvarai eo cist meon fradre Karlo, ...

Classical Latin
Per Dei amorem et per christiani populi et nostram communem salutem, ab hac die, quantum Deus scire et posse mihi dat, servabo hunc meum fratrem Carolum, ...

Conjectural Spoken Transistional Period
Pro deo amore et pro christiano popolo et nostro commune salvamento de esto die in abante, in quanto deos sapere et potere me donat, sic salvaraio eo eccesto mem fratre Karlo ...

Eleventh Century French
Por dieu amor et por del crestiien poeple et nostre comun salvement, de cest jor en avant, quant que Dieus saveir et podier me donet, si salverai io cest mien fredre Charlon, ....

Middle French
Pour l'amour Dieu et pour le sauvement du chrestien peuple et le nostre commun, de cest jour en avant, quant que Dieu savoir et pouvoir me donet, si sauverai je cet mien frere Charle, ...

Modern French
Pour l'amour de Dieu et pour le salut common du peuple chretien et le notre, a partir de ce jour, autant que Dieu m'em donne le savoir et le pouvoir, je soutiendrai mon frere Charles ....

Charlemagne or Carolus Magnus was German.

And yes, English evolved from the proto-germanic, but what written forms when only the Church could write?

[Rockin Robbins]

RR......It's a in game sig, not a life sig, there is a difference ya know. You do know.....:know:

Next we'll be wanting to ban SS that have symbols on them because people can view them.
Actually, no, it isn't an in-game sig. It's a public internet sig having no relationship to playing the game, which is not even necessary to post here.

I don't understand the irrational need to pretend that while on SS you are engaged in the act of playing SH4, unless that is the only possible defense for an otherwise unacceptable practice.

Trying to draw a non-existent equivalence is the same as saying "I have no real defense, so all I have left is just to make up a story." Then you repeat "posting on Subsim is playing Silent Hunter 4" until presumably people actually believe it. Seems a little tenuous to me...

Then there's the "next we'll be wanting to ban" scare tactic. That is equally ridiculous. After all, if someone either has Nazi sympathies or doesn't care if they make that implication, I want to know because that is an important piece of information about that person. I'll take that into account whenever I deal with them and will be able to do so in a more informed manner than if the expression was banned. They have a right to use Nazi symbolism in their signature pics. I have the right to call them on it. The only people talking ban are those in favor of the use of Nazi symbolism in signature pics.That is not a coincidence.

[Urge]

Stealhead wrote...

Sie erhalten den Käse, und ich werde das Weißbier, dann werden wir ein paar Frauen.

Babelfish translation ...

They receive the cheese, and I become the white beer, then we become a few women.

I think something was lost along the way or I just don't get it.

Urge

[Armistead]

I have no doubt people know the difference in game. Obvious this issue is sensitive to some and that's OK, it's just not to me. I know I don't have a racist bone towards this at all. Maybe it's all the past debates playing civil war games. You walk into a WW2 museum your gonna see all this same stuff in public, I doubt that makes them racist. You would say that's history, I would say that's the same historical aspect people playing immerse themselves in. I just don't judge people when they immerse themselves into any historical aspect of a game. However, I do understand to some it goes beyond a game, just never has for me.

Honestly I haven't been around or paid attention so someone probably did something in a racist way causing all these feelings some have, so........

...nuf said, bowing out.

[Sailor Steve]

@ Rockin Robbins: Sorry this side-thread developed within your topic. I'll answer this one here, but if it goes any further we'll get our own.:oops:

And yes, English evolved from the proto-germanic, but what written forms when only the Church could write?
Good point. My objection would be that the Germans did develop their own written language, and it had pretty much nothing to do with Latin. Also, the Church were the only group who spoke Latin, which in my opinion makes it a side-issue.

Or, as I once heard it, the French are the descendants of the Gauls who were conquered by Rome. The Germans stem from those Gauls who never surrendered. Lightweight, I know, but there's some truth in there somewhere.

@ Stealhead: The angle of the arm in the salute is pretty much irrelevant. The Americans of that time thought it was close enough to warrant changing it.

[Buddahaid]

The topic seems to have run it's course to where it's become a matter of opinion, and the side topic started from a reference to Hitler uniting western Europe as a German state again, under the swastika.

Buddahaid

[Rockin Robbins]

Bah! The side issue makes sense and has some connection with the original discussion. I don't have a problem with it. I still say that Naziism was a disease. Germany caught the disease. Germany was cured of the disease. The fact that they had a disease says nothing about the character of Germans.

I don't think there was anything especially German about Naziism. It is interesting that it happened there, but I think we have to be careful about making any conclusions from that.

[DarkFish]

@ Rockin Robbins: Sorry this side-thread developed within your topic. I'll answer this one here, but if it goes any further we'll get our own.:oops:Maybe we should... I too will make only one last reply, unless a new thread is made.

I see I read more into this post than when I read it now, but, here is part of the Strasbourg Oath (842) as written, and then older and newer forms.
[......]
Charlemagne or Carolus Magnus was German.
but what does this have to do with germanic languages? All I can see are latin languages, none of them even closely related to English or any other Germanic language. As Sailor Steve points out only the church and some government officials used those languages.
The Franks did rule over most of western Europe once, but it's been just Germanic influences. France remained a Gaullish land as Sailor Steve says. However, the Germanics do not stem from the Gauls. The Gauls had an entirely different culture/language. They were a Celtic people while the Germanics are, well, Germanic (big surprise, eh?;)). Both Roman historians of the time and modern Historians agree on their cultures being totally different. As Sailor Steve says most Germanic tribes were never defeated and as a result were never part of the Roman empire, and thus Roman influences are much less apparent in Germanic territories than in Gaulish territories.

And yes, English evolved from the proto-germanic, but what written forms when only the Church could write?well, in continental europe there were the Elder and Younger Fuþark and later on the Fuþork (still being used in mid 16th century) while in the UK the Anglo-Saxon Fuþork was used up until the 9th century. (FYI, these are all runic alphabets)
Also, I don't know about the West-Germanic territories (even though I'm Dutch:oops:) but in Scandinavia the Younger Fuþark/Fuþork was common knowledge during the Viking age, a great amount of Scandinavians could write at the time.

[DarkFish]

I don't think there was anything especially German about Naziism. It is interesting that it happened there, but I think we have to be careful about making any conclusions from that.That's all too true:up:
Many countries have (had) similar nationalist movements that considered their own culture/race/whatever to be highly superior to other cultures/races/whatevers. The Nazi's only differ in that they were pretty successful at the time and that their acts were much more horrendous than most of similar movements.

But IMO nowadays we also have to be careful about making any conclusions about someone being a nazi. I'm a huge fan of metal music, and disgusted by the fact that left-extremist organisations entitle many folk/viking metal bands as nazis, only because they use old Germanic symbology and sing about Germanic mythology.
Similarly if I encounter a swastika in a sig on a WW2-related forum it doesn't mean anything more to me than that that person has some interest in the German military.
Of course this excludes non-ww2 related forums, where I think it does clearly make a statement about ones political alignment.

[Buddahaid]

I brought the translations in to show the roots of French are Latin (with words added as no Latin word was available), and support my earlier post regarding western European languages having diverged from the Latin. You stated French was from Normandy. It is my mistake to have included German and English, but I'll research more. It seems you can make many arguments by picking your time-line. Let's see, Charlemagne's surviving eldest son Louis the Pious had three sons. Charles the Bald ruled the western part, Louis the German the eastern part and, Lothaire the middle area from the northern coast to Italy effectively ending the Kingdom of the Franks and the German Christian state of their Grandfather. These became France, Germany, and the Lorraine area that they fight over so much. Charles and Louis signed a treaty in Verdun(843) to help each other if Lothaire were to try and absorb either, and so we see the modern states emerge. It is also notable that we distinguish between states and ethnic origins.

CORRECTION: It was the Strasbourg Oath(842) between Charles and Louis. The Treaty of Verdun(843) established the brothers realms.

On the prime topic, let's examine another symbol and what it represents. What is the basic distinction between the swastika and the red cross on white field the crusaders used. You can argue the Church endorsed genocide in the holy land, and it's symbol is just as tainted. Should it also be banned? Or is there some statute of limitations that applies, a simple matter of time elapsed.

Buddahaid

[Sailor Steve]

On the prime topic, let's examine another symbol and what it represents. What is the basic distinction between the swastika and the red cross on white field the crusaders used. You can argue the Church endorsed genocide in the holy land, and it's symbol is just as tainted. Should it also be banned? Or is there some statute of limitations that applies, a simple matter of time elapsed.
A good point. As Armistead well knows, there has been a long-running controversy over the flying of the Confederate 'Stars and Bars' over government buildings in the southern United States (the region commonly just called 'The South'). To part of the population the flag represents a fondly-remembered lost way of life. To another part it represents a legacy of subjugation and slavery. Which is right? When I see someone wearing a t-shirt with that flag it means next to nothing to me. A shirt with a red cross means even less, probably not because the the amount of time itself, but rather because that part of history is beyond immediate memory. No-one remembers that it represents anything, so no-one cares.

[Armistead]

A good point. As Armistead well knows, there has been a long-running controversy over the flying of the Confederate 'Stars and Bars' over government buildings in the southern United States (the region commonly just called 'The South'). To part of the population the flag represents a fondly-remembered lost way of life. To another part it represents a legacy of subjugation and slavery. Which is right? When I see someone wearing a t-shirt with that flag it means next to nothing to me. A shirt with a red cross means even less, probably not because the the amount of time itself, but rather because that part of history is beyond immediate memory. No-one remembers that it represents anything, so no-one cares.

Bowing back in......I love Confederate history and the era. We have a Ball to attend this weekend. I love those hoop skirts..

I constantly visit Charleston, SC...some good metal detecting. I don't have a problem with the flag in someones yard, merchants selling, ect. I think it adds to the flavor of the town and the history there. I remember the last big uproar about the flag being flown over government buildings. Every where you went people had confed flags in their yards.

I think it's a silly debate. I know for many it's a heritage concept, but common sense tells us the confederate flag doesn't belong on top of a building that represents taxpayers. The funny thing is every time it comes up, confederate flag sells go up 100% and you can't go anywhere and not see them.

However, like most things it went overboard and people wanted it removed from anything funded by tax dollars. Tourism is the money maker in Charleston. It would be hard to remove the flag from many of the historical buildings that had confederate ties. Many wanted it removed from all public museums, welcome centers, historical sites and even statues.

[Buddahaid]

Someone will always be offended at anything, like me. I'm offended by Barney more than swasikas but I don't have living relatives that were harmed by what it represents, and I think that is the key here. As long as there is living memory of the abuses, it will remain highly controversial.

Buddahaid

[Armistead]

Someone will always be offended at anything, like me. I'm offended by Barney more than swasikas but I don't have living relatives that were harmed by what it represents, and I think that is the key here. As long as there is living memory of the abuses, it will remain highly controversial.

Buddahaid

Yep, if you're going to be totally politically correct you would have to eliminate all flags and symbols. That's why we need to use common sense and seperate reality from fantasy. Look at the damage that was done under the US flag, about every indian could hate it. We treated the Indians as bad as Hitler treated the Jews.

And I wouldn't even want to get into religeous flags or symbols. More people have been killed in the name of religion than all others combined.

Barney offensive......:har:

[Stealhead]

Stealhead wrote...



Babelfish translation ...



I think something was lost along the way or I just don't get it.

Urge


It basicly says: You get the cheese and I will bring the white beer then we will find some women.

That is not litteraly what it says but a fulent german would understand it that way.You got some of it right though


You can always use google translate but it is not really perfect it does not always get context like sie can be you or they and erhalten can mean recive or get amoungst other things and I am about at a 3rd grade level with the German grammar but it would be more than enough to get by I am very rusty now used to talk to germans all the time when I was stationed over there.Just dont ever bring a german woman white flowers you will not like the result unless maybe she is very goth in that case the result may be vigorous.

[DarkFish]

Stealhead wrote...
Sie erhalten den Käse, und ich werde das Weißbier, dann werden wir ein paar Frauen.Babelfish translation ...
They receive the cheese, and I become the white beer, then we become a few women.I think something was lost along the way or I just don't get it.It basicly says: You get the cheese and I will bring the white beer then we will find some women.

That is not litteraly what it says but a fulent german would understand it that way.You got some of it right though

You can always use google translate but it is not really perfect it does not always get context like sie can be you or they and erhalten can mean recive or get amoungst other things and I am about at a 3rd grade level with the German grammar but it would be more than enough to get by I am very rusty now used to talk to germans all the time when I was stationed over there.Just dont ever bring a german woman white flowers you will not like the result unless maybe she is very goth in that case the result may be vigorous.actually babelfish got it pretty right here...
In combination with another verb 'wir werden [other verb]' can also mean 'we will [other verb]' but since there is no other verb here it does mean 'become'.
But since you're not a fluent German speaker most germans would understand what you mean and not think you're a transvestite:up:
You're entirely right about Sie, there's one small difference though: you=Sie and they=sie. But since Sie it is the first word of this sentence you can't tell the difference.

Weshalb soll man eigentlich keine weiße Blumen verschenken? Hab das nie gehört... naja, ich bin denn auch nicht Deutsch

[Schroeder]

Weshalb soll man eigentlich keine weiße Blumen verschenken? Hab das nie gehört... naja, ich bin denn auch nicht Deutsch
Ist mir auch neu.:o
Never heard of that too. But maybe it differs from region to region. I think most Americans are stationed in the south of Germany, well you know Southerners are always different, no matter the country.:D

*Edit*
O.K. asked around a little and it seems that white flowers are usually used on graves only.

[Stealhead]

Yeah I recall they told everyone that during the culturial breifing they give out to all the folks who come in each week. Pretty useful info you any single men unless of course the girl is goth then like I said it may have a very positive reaction.:dead:
I guess I would talk in german better than type it I never really focused much on writting it.I found most germans if they realized you spoke a little german they gave you alot more respect becasue you showed the respect to at least speak a little german rather than be the "I speak English you kraut(insert insult for other nation jerk american might be) so I wont bother saying thank you or hello or know how to order food and drink in german."
By the way I once saw a drunken american solider call a german cop a stupid f...... kraut even though the two cops where actually being very nice to him and one said in english "Sir your nose is bleeding." and solider wiped his nose and it was not and he said "what are you talking about?"
the cop then punched him dead on the nose and said "Your nose is bleeding." The solider deserved it though he had been talking some big time crap and this was a DUI stop so he was endangering peoples lives. Some americans tried to rat the germans to the MPs but they where outnubmered by the americans who lied for the germans.And many MP felt that if flapped your mouth to a german cop you deserved the german responce.

Another thing they told us was not to turn down a german's who considers you a friend inviataion to a party or event (unless for very good reason) because it can be taken as an insult not to want to come.

I think it is a good idea to have a basic understanding of a nations language and culture if you are going to be there. In some cases something that would mean nothing to you could be an extreme insult in another culture. Some people stationed in Germany did not leave base much or they went to only places where mainly other americans went...boring. My friends and I went to the bars where the local germans went it was much more fun and you got to know people.What a shame for the ones who "stayed on the reservation" they missed out.

I liked the diffrent festivals that you could find from town to town and the weekend markets you dont see this kind of thing much in the US.Also while drinking with germans your fluency in german goes up notabily.I was in Kaiserslautern by the way Schroeder dont know where you are from I went to most parts of germany at some but not much along the coast.


At Darkfish yeah I did mess that one part up a bit though it would sound kind of funny to hear someone say it that way you would be pretty drunk to become a woman.I would assume that Dutch is largely simular to german or is more like Spanish to Portuguese? There was a guy in my unit who figured a good ice breaker for him when talking to a german woman would be say something funny so he came up with the line:My underwear smells like chocolate. I dont think it was a great success for him he usualy went to red light district in the end so much so that "Red Light" became his nickname maybe he gave out too many white flowers.

[Nisgeis]

You make it sound like everyone should treat the whole subject of U-boat warfare as taboo and there shouldn't be games about it. Do you feel that way about IL2 Sturmovik? You can fly Nazi planes in that game.

You are incorrect. You cannot fly a 'Nazi plane' as that would imply that the plane stood in line at the Nazi party HQ and paid its membership and then pinned its Nazi symbol on its self. Given the Nazi's views on 'sub-humans' I'm pretty sure inanimate objects would not be allowed to join the Nazi party, amazing as a talking plane that wanted to be a Nazi party member would have been. Though, if any instances of any truck ever joining the Nazi party are found, then that may well give credance to the rumours I keep hearing of 'Nazi trucks'. Leave the machines alone and let the humans take the blame - they had the free choice as to join or not.

Having a German plane flown by a Nazi, is of course different, as that human made the choice to join the Nazi party and support its cause, but don't blame the plane for its pilot's choice. To have any such thing close to this in IL2, you would have to be a Nazi, flying a German plane, but as no one can be a member of the Nazi party now, you can only wish for it and it will never happen.

[Nisgeis]

One more comment, a great many books on the subject state that U-boat crews who were captured and interrogated were almost always described as fanatical Nazis. I dont know that I believe that they all were fanatical Nazis, but that is how the British apparently viewed them. Joe S

That's a bit ambiguous, saying that a great many books say that U-boat crews were described as Nazis... that doesn't really mean a lot, as it could be that a great many books, all used the same source that described U-boat crews as Nazis, instead of a lot of independant sources described U-boat crews as Nazis - see the difference? From what I have read, the propoganda of the day was that most U-boat crews were expected to be dyed-in-the-wool Nazis, but in practice this was different. If you read U-Boat Killer, you will read a frank account of the behaviour of the captured crews and how much respect they had for their captains, whether for the better or not. Some crews were completely loyal to their commander and highly efficient, other crews had distain for their commander, who they viewed as cowards, which was bourne out as they were the first to abandon ship when their U-boat was sinking. There are good and bad seaman on each side. Those fast tracked to command by virtue of being a fanatical Nazi party member were probably not good command material from the start.

[DarkFish]

At Darkfish yeah I did mess that one part up a bit though it would sound kind of funny to hear someone say it that way you would be pretty drunk to become a woman.I would assume that Dutch is largely simular to german or is more like Spanish to Portuguese?Either drunk or just been promoted to "Wild Night in Bangkok";)
Dutch words are usually very similar to their German counterparts (one crazy exception: Dutch "zee" (sea) is German "Meer" while Dutch "meer" (lake) is German "See") but Dutch grammar is much easier, almost identical to English grammar.
Example:
English: The dog bites the man and the woman
Dutch: De hond bijt de man en de vrouw
German: Der Hund beißt den Mann und die Frau

If you'd turn these sentences around, keep the cases and delete the woman (because of singular/plural problems):
English: The man bites the dog
Dutch: De man bijt de hond ---- now means: The man bites the dog, just as in English
German: Den Mann beißt der Hund ---- still means "The dog bites the man"
To get the same meaning as in English it would be: "Der Mann beißt den Hund"

[karamazovnew]

As far as fighting skills go, I place the germans along side the Spartans. If wars would only be fought and felt on emtpy battlefields, I'd despise wars less. Soldiers are only humans, once they are conscripted, they bring with them all of their education and morality that was forged during their civilian life. Drowned in propaganda, seeing their friends die daily, that base of their conscience dictates if they remain human or turn into monsters. Since the germans were by large more educated and disciplined than many other nations, it's no wonder that we are more appaled by the Holocaust than the russian death wave of the 30's. In both cases however, only the the leaders can be blamed. We call them the nazis and their symbol was the swastika (the entire flag I mean). If I want to honor the bravery of the soldiers, I don't need that symbol. The true german symbols are the Iron Cross and the Eagle. :salute:

[Rockin Robbins]

Mookie was merely twisting my position into something it is not. I play and mod the German side of the war, as everyone knows. I don't have a clue why mookie would say something as clearly false as that. I guess in an Internet discussion anything goes as long as it scores "points."

The whole point of a simulation is to answer the question "what if?" In this case, what if the Germans had followed different tactics, could the U-Boat have won the war? My conclusion has been that no change in tactics or even advancing the state of the U-Boat beyond 1920 would have resulted in a German victory in the Battle of the Atlantic, much less the war.

Tactically, the Germans would have been much better served by being much less aggressive. They could have wiped out France and Poland, taking the necessary Low Countries in the bargain (you were just in the way, sorry we bumped you!). If the U-Boats had been coastal defense only, the British would not have been so inflamed. The Battle of Britain iced the cake.

Totalitarian regimes are free to act aggressively. Even when provoked, it is very difficult to move a republic or constitutional monarchy to the tipping point where they are wholeheartedly committed to death and destruction. They always contain large groups of supplicators who believe that peace is the greatest good, no matter what, and nothing is worth the price of a single soldier's life.

Just look at the US today, with the radical Islamics at war with us and our official stance is to pretend there is no war. We'll pay for that. Also look at the stance of English peaceniks during the Napoleonic period, who were vicious in their politics of destruction toward the Duke of York and those who saw the need to defeat Napolean.

Hitler didn't understand the dynamics of popularly elected government, and so was unable to take advantage of its characteristics in order to have a greater chance of victory, U-Boats or no U-Boats. But as it was, the U-Boats were responsible for the resolve of the British and the presence of the Americans. Without both of those, the Germans would easily have won.

[mookiemookie]

You are incorrect. You cannot fly a 'Nazi plane' as that would imply that the plane stood in line at the Nazi party HQ and paid its membership and then pinned its Nazi symbol on its self. Given the Nazi's views on 'sub-humans' I'm pretty sure inanimate objects would not be allowed to join the Nazi party, amazing as a talking plane that wanted to be a Nazi party member would have been. Though, if any instances of any truck ever joining the Nazi party are found, then that may well give credance to the rumours I keep hearing of 'Nazi trucks'. Leave the machines alone and let the humans take the blame - they had the free choice as to join or not.

Having a German plane flown by a Nazi, is of course different, as that human made the choice to join the Nazi party and support its cause, but don't blame the plane for its pilot's choice. To have any such thing close to this in IL2, you would have to be a Nazi, flying a German plane, but as no one can be a member of the Nazi party now, you can only wish for it and it will never happen.

Hear that, Jay Jay the Jet plane? Your party membership is hereby cancelled!

http://www.kramlik.com/jj.jpg


In all seriousness, I'm guilty as charged on that one. I should have been more clearer when describing a plane flown by the Nazi ruling regime in Germany circa WW2... But it also proves the point I was trying to make...sailing a U-boat in a sim doesn't make me a Nazi. I'm not sailing for the glory of the Fatherland. I'm having fun sinking pixels with the same weapons and abilities a U-boat carried in the same situations a U-boat would have encountered. Because I like to place myself in the same situations they were in is a far cry from furthering the goals of Nazi era Germany or their ideology now or then.

Mookie was merely twisting my position into something it is not. I play and mod the German side of the war, as everyone knows. I don't have a clue why mookie would say something as clearly false as that. I guess in an Internet discussion anything goes as long as it scores "points."

Another mea culpa for me. I thought your position at the time was that playing a U-boat sim was inherently bad as it supported the Nazi position. I now understand that you were talking about forum signatures displaying Nazi symbolism.

[Tony845]

I've wondered how people felt about this topic. I have not been reading posts on this forum long enough to see any comments before on the subject of symbols. Nine pages of posts on this thread so far. More to come, I'm sure. I'm afraid this is a topic that will never be answered to everyone's satisfaction either in the forum or in real life. Symbols that have been associated with evil or supposed evil purposes seldom regain a neutral or 'clean' meaning. It can take a generational change to do this. Sort of like the peace symbol, (the "upside down broken cross" thing) was taken as anti-religious to many of my fathers generation.

I submit that the best thing to do is play the game the way you want and keep your options (and emotions) about symbols to yourself. Freedom of expression is a wonderful thing but sometimes it's best to bite your tongue.

Tony

[Akmatov]

Obviously a discussion that has generated a lot of interest, can't resist my 2 kopeks.

"so long as there are neo-Nazis>Communists out there sincerely and with violence advocating the anti Jewish, gypsy, slav, heck, anybody not "Aryan" other than themselves:D, "cleanse the world of these subhumans" philosophy>Leadership of the Proletariat Elite, than Nazi>Communist symbols mean something ugly and present. We should not use them out of respect for those who are still targeted for destruction by vicious people using those symbols as a rallying point."

Bear in mind that both Hitler and Stalin were socialists and in the corpse contest Stalin greatly out scored Hitler. Very ugly.

Therefore I expect the EU to ban the depiction of both the Hammer & Sickle and the Red Star - about the time Hell freezes over!

[Rockin Robbins]

Stalin had a much better PR department than Hitler and had the luxury of not being overrun and all his dead bodies dug up for the world to see. And Stalin was bright enough to have limited goals and to stay well within his ability to attain them. All that made Stalin truly a much more dangerous foe than Hitler over thought of being.

For some reason beyond my comprehension, the hammer and sickle always had an allure to Europeans, especially the British, and a surprising number of acolytes in the United States. This was despite never even showing promise of fulfilling its stated aims of realizing a day when the middle classes were destroyed and the lower classes reveled in the prosperity caused by the thieving capitalist's demise.

They only succeeded in being a leech on the capitalist world, claiming victory but only living because they could steal from truly successful cultures. Unfortunately, that meant their technology was 30 years behind the west. When they found they no longer could copy the stuff they stole to reverse engineer the game was up. And when the first generation true believers died, the next two generations realized the true emptiness of the Communist pipedream.

[WilyPete]

Stalin had a much better PR department than Hitler and had the luxury of not being overrun and all his dead bodies dug up for the world to see. And Stalin was bright enough to have limited goals and to stay well within his ability to attain them. All that made Stalin truly a much more dangerous foe than Hitler over thought of being.

For some reason beyond my comprehension, the hammer and sickle always had an allure to Europeans, especially the British, and a surprising number of acolytes in the United States. This was despite never even showing promise of fulfilling its stated aims of realizing a day when the middle classes were destroyed and the lower classes reveled in the prosperity caused by the thieving capitalist's demise.

They only succeeded in being a leech on the capitalist world, claiming victory but only living because they could steal from truly successful cultures. Unfortunately, that meant their technology was 30 years behind the west. When they found they no longer could copy the stuff they stole to reverse engineer the game was up. And when the first generation true believers died, the next two generations realized the true emptiness of the Communist pipedream.


My sentiments exactly. Coupled with the fact that many war crimes and attrocities were commited by the Allies, I have come to the conclusion that the politics of WW2 were only a matter of opinion and there was no "good guy" or "bad guy".

Riddle me this:

The Axis kills 6 million civilian Jews plus another 8-10 million civilians targetting cities etc. Ok, very evil, I agree with you.

The Allies kill let's see: Dresden (bombing by the RAF): from 100,000 to 250,000. Hiroshima: 70 initially add another 500,000 for the aftereffects. Nagasaki, very similar to Hiroshima: 80,000 then 500,000. Fire-bombing of Tokyo by US air force: 250,000. Those are the big ones. Add another million or two for lesser events. Plus add the 30 million the Russians killed. We have a grand total of: around the 35 million mark. Civilians. Targeted.

Were the Allies any less evil? Judging by the figures, I'd say no. And that's how they're gonna judge in 50 years time. By the figures.

Thank you and goodnight. :yeah:

[Armistead]

50 years has passed and history has judged correctly. Why war is terrible and before smart weapons many civilians died, you can't judge the allies by the number of people that died. There is no telling what untold millions would've died had we not been forced into the war. Freedom was on the line, freedom was saved. The nations that start radical wars put their people at risk, thus they are the ones responsible for untold death.

I'm all for protecting Freedom, not forcing it, why I was never for the Iraq war.

[grislyatoms]

Haven't read all the posts, but:

Bear in mind that both Hitler and Stalin were socialists and in the corpse contest Stalin greatly out scored Hitler. Very ugly.

Therefore I expect the EU to ban the depiction of both the Hammer & Sickle and the Red Star - about the time Hell freezes over!

That's about the way I feel about it. The Japanese committed their share of atrocities too. (Nanking, Manila, and Wake massacres, Unit 731, cannibalism, [ever read Flyboys? Good read, a fair bit on the cannibalism thing], chemical weapons on civilians, etc.)
The "meatball" doesn't provoke the same reaction as the swastika, though.

I'm not going to glorify a meatball, swastika, or hammer and sickle by hanging them in my home but I see no problem having them portrayed in a game or forum such as this.

edit - I do see the point, though, I think. If folks want to come on with a screen name of "3rdreichuberalles" or something with prominent Nazi flags...hmmm. I would have to question their sensibilities, amongst other things, and probably wouldn't have much to say.

Case-by-case basis?

[WilyPete]

50 years has passed and history has judged correctly. Why war is terrible and before smart weapons many civilians died, you can't judge the allies by the number of people that died. There is no telling what untold millions would've died had we not been forced into the war. Freedom was on the line, freedom was saved. The nations that start radical wars put their people at risk, thus they are the ones responsible for untold death.

I'm all for protecting Freedom, not forcing it, why I was never for the Iraq war.

Sorry but that's absolute TRIPE and basically just general rubbish. Anyone who's actually read up on that particular era will know different. For starters the Allies started the war. In basic terms Britain declared war on Germany. So who started the war again? You can say anything you want about liberating Poland but if you read about the way the German people were being treated at Danzig, you'd find out that the Polish were the aggressors, regardless if the Radio station was overun by Germans wearing Polish uniforms. Which makes you wonder why they'd bother considering they knew the British had a pact with Poland. You can argue this, but what you can't argue is that proceeding this France attacked and INVADED Germany BEFORE Germany invaded France. Look it up. And finally I would like to know why didn't Britain and France declare war on Russia seeing they also invaded Poland? :03:

And that rubbish that "we had to nuke Japanes civilians otherwise millions more would've died invading Japan". Oh please. That's like saying: "we had to kill millions of women and children otherwise millions of our soldiers would've died". Well sorry to say but civilians are worth more than soldiers. A soldier's job is to fight and if he does it well he dies...end of. A soldier goes out there to protect civilians. Once the Allies targetted civilians, that's it, they became just as evil as Hitler and the Axis. :up:

The hypocrisy is disgusting though. And the old adage "the victor writes the history books (and brain washes the younger generation into thinking they were the good guys and the enemy the bad guys)" is oh so true.

Again, if you try to convince me that Stalin (Allies) was any better than Hitler, because that is what you're saying, I will scoff in your face. Same thing that if you justify the only use of weapons of mass destruction ever on a civilian population (Allies) was made in the name of liberty and righteousness, shows how sad people like you are. Why not try that today...nuke Iraq or Iran...I mean, it could save thousands of American lives, wont it? Oh ok...it's wrong today but back then it wasn't? Is that what you're saying? :hmmm:

There's a famous quote I can fish out for you from an American General in World War 2. Not only a general but one of the generals responsible for strategic decisions. He says something along the lines: "If we hadn't won the war, we'd all have been hanged for war crimes". :yeah:

World War 2 in a nutshell: Germany wants to build an empire pushing East. Britain and France seeing their respective empires crumbling, are envious/do not like it. Plus, "that's something they did in the 19th century...not the 20th century". i.s. hypocrisy. So they declare war on Germany. Warmongering Germany sues for peace the whole of October 1939. Peace-loving Britain and France tell Germany to eff off the whole of October 1939. The US sees an opportunity to make money and takes it, New World Order. :up:

Anyway, opinions are changing. I was brought up in believing the Germans were evil stormptroopers who ate babies and raped old women. Then slowly things filter through and we find out that they are human afterall. The German sub crews, for instance? And the thing I hate is...why lie to us all these years? Why not just stick to the facts so I can make up my own mind. So yes going from a boy believing the things about being told they are evil to finding out they weren't that much different form us, of course I will wonder WHY there is any REASON to lie and make them out as evil monsters. And so you read up on things like Dresden and Bomber Harris (British Air Marshal) who wanted to bomb every German city and kill every German citizen (genocide?). And you read up on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And then doubts come into your mind...evil? Isn't that evil?

Makes you wonder what would've happened if someone objected to Britain building their empire in the 19th century through invasion, force and dictatorship? It was alright for Britain to invade India and much of Africa, wasn't it?

Anyway, I hate hypocrisy and arrogance.

In conclusion, I'll repeat again why I said that you wrote general rubbish and tripe:

"50 years has passed and history has judged correctly. Why war is terrible and before smart weapons many civilians died, you can't judge the allies by the number of people that died."

First off 60 years have passed. Shows people like you don't know the first thing about World War 2, not even the dates. Secondly, there are "smart bombs" and then there is taking 1,000 Lancasters, filling them with bombs and then carpet bombing a town like Dresden in the middle of the night killing babies, women, children....about 200,000 of them in fact. "Good guys"? Wow.

[Armistead]

Pete,,,calm down.:D

You made the statement 50 years will need to pass so history can be judged, I was referring to your statement. I read it again and realize you meant it will take 50 more years, I guess from now. However, we don't need to rewrite history on this one. Only a few radicals believe as you do, but most believe 63 years is plenty time and we have all the facts.

So you believe the British declared war on Germany and that the US declared war on Japan and we were wrong and they were right. I guess you also believe that Hitler didn't commit genocide against the Jews and the Japs didn't rape and pillage most of the far east long before we deserved to be attacked at Pearl....:up: Gotcha.

I know some of the radical views you believe in and people try to take minor truths and pass the blame. I don't even argue them as they are that silly.

Did we have to Nuke...No, we could have walked away...I guess you believe we should have. Even after two Nukes the Military was ready to overthrow the Emperor and keep on fighting as were the civilains. The Nukes didn't compare to the Fire bombing, we could have easly continued that. They started the war and it could have ended with unconditional surrender. Sorry, we couldn't simply pack up and walk away. Had we done so, they would have kept many of the nations they still had control of and just rebuilt.

The sad fact in wars past and maybe in wars future civilians are killed as they are part of the industry that supports war. It is sad when civilians lose all power and are forced into wars where they suffer. However, they support war and power until they start losing, then some say poor civilians when they pay the price for what they support. The japanese population was for the war and gaining more territory, they were on the losing side it's a hard price to pay. Maybe people should know better not to bow down before one person and claim him to be God.

Millions would've died either way. You forget Japan still occupied several nations.

Take our Civil War. Had the North not engaged in all out warfare against the civilians, cities, ect. of the South the war would have gone on for years and it's highly possible the North would have lost and the US would have became a nation of warring states. Grant and Sherman knew the only way to STOP the war was to break the will of the people. Lee on the otherhand wouldn't do that on that level.

I know and have heard of some of the radical views you believe in. There is some truth in past history, but that doesn't negate WW2 in itself and who was responsible for it.

No doubt almost every nation that ever existed had done evil, conquered others, ect. Look what the US did to the Indians. However, we must live in the moment and facts we are in.

[WilyPete]

Pete,,,calm down.:D

You made the statement 50 years will need to pass so history can be judged, I was referring to your statement.

I didn't make any such statement. And you said "50 years has passed and history has judged correctly." to be exact. So stop trying to make up things to hide your error, please, no one is buying it mostly because what you wrote is unequivocal (i.e. impossible to misinterpret). :03:

I read it again and realize you meant it will take 50 more years, I guess from now. However, we don't need to rewrite history on this one. Only a few radicals believe as you do, but most believe 63 years is plenty time and we have all the facts. Wrong again. First of all, I'm not a "radical" whatever that means. I'm A-political, meaning I hate all politics and politicians and political parties whether Nazis, Communists or Centre of the Middle thieving capitalists. :yeah: All that interests me is the military side. Though how the politicians use their military aparatus of course is connected and in a purely military sense there was no difference in the way the Allies were as bloodthirsty for civilian flesh as the Axis was. So you believe the British declared war on Germany Not "believe, they "did". History proves this. :up: and that the US declared war on Japan and we were wrong and they were right. Did I say that? I said EQUALLY AS evil/wrong I guess you also believe that Hitler didn't commit genocide Again...did I say that? Stop putting words in my mouth...thanks against the Jews and the Japs "japs"?? JAPS...nice racist term there, well done Oh High and Mighty One :up: didn't rape and pillage most of the far east long before we deserved to be attacked at Pearl....:up: Gotcha.

I know some of the radical views you believe in and people try to take minor truths and pass the blame. I don't even argue them as they are that silly. And this is where I stopped reading because I finally realise you do not have a clue of what you're talking about and I was in fact right to think you had no idea over 60 years have passed. Please try reading some history...and a few English lessons wouldn't go amiss. ;)

Did we have to Nuke...No, we could have walked away...I guess you believe we should have. Even after two Nukes the Military was ready to overthrow the Emperor and keep on fighting as were the civilains. The Nukes didn't compare to the Fire bombing, we could have easly continued that. They started the war and it could have ended with unconditional surrender. Sorry, we couldn't simply pack up and walk away. Had we done so, they would have kept many of the nations they still had control of and just rebuilt.

The sad fact in wars past and maybe in wars future civilians are killed as they are part of the industry that supports war. It is sad when civilians lose all power and are forced into wars where they suffer. However, they support war and power until they start losing, then some say poor civilians when they pay the price for what they support. The japanese population was for the war and gaining more territory, they were on the losing side it's a hard price to pay. Maybe people should know better not to bow down before one person and claim him to be God.

Millions would've died either way. You forget Japan still occupied several nations.

Take our Civil War. Had the North not engaged in all out warfare against the civilians, cities, ect. of the South the war would have gone on for years and it's highly possible the North would have lost and the US would have became a nation of warring states. Grant and Sherman knew the only way to STOP the war was to break the will of the people. Lee on the otherhand wouldn't do that on that level.

I know and have heard of some of the radical views you believe in. There is some truth in past history, but that doesn't negate WW2 in itself and who was responsible for it.

No doubt almost every nation that ever existed had done evil, conquered others, ect. Look what the US did to the Indians. However, we must live in the moment and facts we are in.What rubbish. The gist of your post can be summed up as "it's ok when we murder, rape, pillage and invade...it's not when anyone else does it". Shame on you.

[WilyPete]

I find it funny though, and I always have, that unless you believe that the Allies could do no wrong and were totally in the right during World War 2, even when they were killing all the babies and children by burning them to death in their beds/cots, you will be branded a Nazi sympathiser or Neo-Nazi. In other words, you will be labeled and persecuted, just like Hitler was accused of doing and by all accounts, used to do with anyone who had differing ideas (hence why I believe the Allies and Axis were two sides of the same coin...freedom? where?). Does anyone see the irony in that? Surely someone must do. It's akin to America going to Iraq and bombing the holy shyt out of them in the name of freedom. "PEOPLE OF IRAQ NOW HEAR THIS: WE HAVE COME TO BOMB THE FREEDOM OUT OF YOU". :salute:

I want to ask you lot this. Did the Allies declare war on Germany to save the Jews? How exactly considering we didn't know about the concentration camps until the end of the war? NO, war was declared simply because OF A PACT with Poland. That's it. Politics. And if the US were so righteous in their belief in freedom, why wait until they were attacked personally to enter the war? Self interest? And why side up with a mass-murdering dictator like Stalin? Stalin killed millions a decade before Hitler went on his killing spree and that we DID know about. "Oh but it's OK, he's on our side".

And then how can you get on your high horse and talk about genocide and attrocities implicated by the Japanese and Germans when you turn around and nuke and bomb the crap out of "enemy" civilians? Wasn't the enemy a dictator like we were lead to believe? So what fault do the civilians have since they are being forced to comply by a dictator? Why take it out on them? To save millions? Were babies and mothers that much of a threat they could cause the deaths of "millions"? And isn't this a form of genocide as well?


Well I don't care, I'm commenting 60 years on. As I have my opinion on Napolean and the Roman Empire I equally have my opinion on World War 2 and if it doesn't comply with yours then you'll have to live with it, afterall the Allies won so freedom rules.....right? :yeah:

p.s. I await "nazi" and "idiot" as retort as is par for the course when someone isn't brainwashed into believing the crap they tell you and instead goes out of his way with an open mind to research history in order to find out how it really went. Whatever, I'll leave you in the bliss of your ignorance. The point I wanted to make was: "you can't fool all of the people, all of the time". There's WMDs in that there Iraq I tells you.

Oh yes, and finally...what this has to do with the thread. Yes, leave the Swastikas in the game, afterall it is historically accurate. And keep your politics to yourself and don't try and stuff them down my throat. Thanks!

[DarkFish]

@WilyPete
what do you think about the German invasion of the Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Denmark etc.? just curious as you state the allies have as much guilt, or even more, for starting this war than the Germans have. What horrible things did we Dutchmen do to make Germany invade us?

[Armistead]

I find it funny though, and I always have, that unless you believe that the Allies could do no wrong and were totally in the right during World War 2, even when they were killing all the babies and children by burning them to death in their beds/cots, you will be branded a Nazi sympathiser or Neo-Nazi. In other words, you will be labeled and persecuted, just like Hitler was accused of doing and by all accounts, used to do with anyone who had differing ideas (hence why I believe the Allies and Axis were two sides of the same coin...freedom? where?). Does anyone see the irony in that? Surely someone must do. It's akin to America going to Iraq and bombing the holy shyt out of them in the name of freedom. "PEOPLE OF IRAQ NOW HEAR THIS: WE HAVE COME TO BOMB THE FREEDOM OUT OF YOU". :salute:

I want to ask you lot this. Did the Allies declare war on Germany to save the Jews? How exactly considering we didn't know about the concentration camps until the end of the war? NO, war was declared simply because OF A PACT with Poland. That's it. Politics. And if the US were so righteous in their belief in freedom, why wait until they were attacked personally to enter the war? Self interest? And why side up with a mass-murdering dictator like Stalin? Stalin killed millions a decade before Hitler went on his killing spree and that we DID know about. "Oh but it's OK, he's on our side".

And then how can you get on your high horse and talk about genocide and attrocities implicated by the Japanese and Germans when you turn around and nuke and bomb the crap out of "enemy" civilians? Wasn't the enemy a dictator like we were lead to believe? So what fault do the civilians have since they are being forced to comply by a dictator? Why take it out on them? To save millions? Were babies and mothers that much of a threat they could cause the deaths of "millions"? And isn't this a form of genocide as well?


Well I don't care, I'm commenting 60 years on. As I have my opinion on Napolean and the Roman Empire I equally have my opinion on World War 2 and if it doesn't comply with yours then you'll have to live with it, afterall the Allies won so freedom rules.....right? :yeah:

p.s. I await "nazi" and "idiot" as retort as is par for the course when someone isn't brainwashed into believing the crap they tell you and instead goes out of his way with an open mind to research history in order to find out how it really went. Whatever, I'll leave you in the bliss of your ignorance. The point I wanted to make was: "you can't fool all of the people, all of the time". There's WMDs in that there Iraq I tells you.

Oh yes, and finally...what this has to do with the thread. Yes, leave the Swastikas in the game, afterall it is historically accurate. And keep your politics to yourself and don't try and stuff them down my throat. Thanks!

I can only think of one word for you...Prozac..:rotfl:

[WilyPete]

I can only think of one word for you...Prozac..:rotfl:

Actually mood isn't conveyed properly in posts. You think I'm having a coronary while writing, I'm actually grinning most of the time. :DL At the end of the day: who cares. That's the way I see it. It's the internet. No one really cares. :yeah:

Darkfish: The Germans invading Holland? With all due respect, have you seen Holland on a map lately? It's tiny. I honestly believe The Netherlands was an afterthought, just like Belgium, in order to go after France. Which is exactly what happened. It's like the US using Afghanistan as a launch point for Iraq. What did Aghanistan do to the US? Either that or Hitler really hated Edam. :yeah:

As for Norway, the Norwegians didn't like the Allies or the Axis. Read up on it. The Allies in fact were contemplating an invasion of Norway to get to the Iron deposits...I suppose this would've been "justified" if this had happened. And actually it did. The Allies did invade Norway and the Norwegians wanted them out. But Hitler got there first. :rotfl:So did the Axis "liberate" Norway from the initial invaders or re-invade. :up:


But who cares...as I said, the Allies were just as evil as the Axis. I'm not taking sides...I wish they had nuked each other and there was another world order because as it is, if you take World War 2 by it's results, it was a total FAILURE. Was Poland liberated? No, it remained occupied...for another 50 years. :rotfl:And we had a Cold War for half a decade as well. And look at how the world is messed up with governments causing a global economic crisis, stealing money from citizens and war, famine, terrorism, discontent etc etc. Yay for FREEDOM! BAHAHAHAA :O:

[Task Force]

Ither way you look at it... both sides were rong, axis, and allies both killed people, civilians died, troops died. Both did rong things... ect... If the allies would have lost, we would be talking about if the british flag and symbols, or the french or symbols, something like that is rong.

[Stealhead]

WillyPete is in outer space and has a neagtive view of the world as a whole guys I think it is a good idea to simply not respond to his posts it is clear he is out there big time.

Like the Japs Armistead if you read his many posts is simply using this as a short version of Japanese it is not meant to have a dirogatory meaning.

WillyPetes goal is to insult eveyone here and spread his views which none of this "lot" are buying dont watse your time guys ignore the looney.
Also note that WilliyPete says that he will screw off in(have sex with (scroff: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scroff screw:http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=screw screw off:http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=screw+off ) Scroffing in someone elses face can only mean something sexual or phycical violence. though it is clear that he cant do that via the web he is violating the
Sub Sim policy by threating to "screw" Armistead's face (damn Armistead you must be a very handsome man).

WillyPete if No one really cares. :yeah: why are you going off so badly in the first place?
P.S. Do not attempt Scoff me WilliyPete I do not swing that way buddy.

[WilyPete]

WillyPete is in outer space and has a neagtive view of the world as a whole guys I think it is a good idea to simply not respond to his posts it is clear he is out there big time.

Like the Japs Armistead if you read his many posts is simply using this as a short version of Japanese it is not meant to have a dirogatory meaning.

WillyPetes goal is to insult eveyone here and spread his views which none of this "lot" are buying dont watse your time guys ignore the looney.
Also note that WilliyPete says that he will screw off in(have sex with (scroff: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scroff screw:http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=screw screw off:http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=screw+off ) Scroffing in someone elses face can only mean something sexual or phycical violence. though it is clear that he cant do that via the web he is violating the
Sub Sim policy by threating to "screw" Armistead's face (damn Armistead you must be a very handsome man).

WillyPete if No one really cares. :yeah: why are you going off so badly in the first place?
P.S. Do not attempt Scoff me WilliyPete I do not swing that way buddy.


"Scoff" means to "laugh", ya ignorant imbecile. Don't try to bring everyone down to your level of (non) intellect. :up:

Nice sexual fantasy you have there of men. :yeah:

Oh and I'm going "off on one" on here because I'm bored and a bit angsty for personal reasons. So I do what a lot of people do. Go on a meaningless internet forum and start spurting a whole load of bollocks. If I had something better to do, I wouldn't bother. Oh and, oh please don't ban me. Oh please don't. I've been here since last week. I have no idea what I'll do (maybe open a new account?). Will I get my money back if I'm banned.

p.s. I think I'm on my 8th account. bahahahaha...

Internet: it's serious.

My God some of you need a life.

Anyway, anytime you want to ban me...feel free. I only came on here for info on SH4 and GWX. I've been a member on here since maybe 2004...but not one of the saddo regulars. I usually come here to get some info, get it and then either go away until I need more info or get banned conversing with the many idiots on here. lol


Yeah ban me...most probably wont ever log in until I have another question which I can't find the answer Googling. ;)

[Stealhead]

So you insult the entire SubSim forum? I know there is some ranting here and there but a lot of this forum is about people who enjoy simming so if you are here only for your stated reason then your have no reason to be a member of this site.This is far from the only thing that I do with my time. If you are feeling bad for some reason buy a punching bag and go to town on it it will do you some good.In fact you dont even need to be a member to find and answer to most real questions.

I am not a moderator by the way so I cant ban you.

That is something to be really proud of getting kicked by SubSim 8 times theses guys are very lax so that is quite an achivement.

Sure Scoff can mean to laugh but this site is based in the United States where the word scroff is not used so an american whom I and Armistead are could take one of many possiable meaning to the word scroff next time simply say laugh in your face that way an american,canadian,german,meaxican,fin can not mistake your possiable meaning.

I think you should read the very first line in SubSims rules they should imply that your kind is not welcome if all you do is rant like this.http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php?faq=susbim_faq_item#faq_1_faq_item some messing around is ok but if this is your only reason for being a member than I suppose they will keep kicking you.Like I said you can get most info on SH4 and GWX simply by coming to the site there is no need to even be a member.

[AVGWarhawk]

Do to the overwhelming popularity of Wilypete and the numerous email notifications of his rampant Sunday night romp at the forums...thread closed for now. :yeah:

[AVGWarhawk]

Since the thread has been relatively civil with exception as noted, thread open for business.

Enjoy your stay:up:

[vanjast]

Unfortunately, that meant their technology was 30 years behind the west. When they found they no longer could copy the stuff they stole to reverse engineer the game was up.

Not exactly so.. ;)
When the west saw the Mig29 Fulcrum they got the biggest shock of their lives. Everybody jumped and said that it was an F14 Tomcat copy.

When studied, it was discovered to have no similarities to the F14 except in looks. It was a complete in-house Russian design, far superior the F14, and almost every aircraft, even today. It was much cheaper and easier to maintain in the field.

A lot of Russian arcraft were discovered to still have old electronics systems, and the west scoffed at this 'inferiority', when comparing it to 'high-tech' western planes. They were not happy when the Russains pointed out that this was a purposeful design to survive the 'electomagnetic impulse missiles' they had.
These electromagnetic impulse weapons that would 'fry' the high-tech weaponery of the west if the Cold war went Hot.

No, I'd say the Russians had the right idea, and the west missed the goal by a few 1000 miles.
:D

[Rockin Robbins]

Similar to the German' ingenuity in adapting low tech solutions to 1920's technology Type VII U-Boats, the Russians had great imagination in applying old technology to new problems. I'm not seeking to minimize that. And ingenuity alone sometimes beats technical excellence that is not accompanied by similar ingenuity.

Our F-14 was a merely adequate plane with a disastrous tendency to in-flight flameouts. We splashed many of them. However we have to be very careful in judging combat effectiveness of planes which never fought each other. Pilots sometimes mean more than technology or speed. On-paper stats are great, but combat results are where the rubber meets the road. Thankfully, we don't have the combat results on that one.

But a lot of the Russians pronouncements were nothing but sour grapes. They were carefully prepared sour grapes, however, calculated to misdirect our efforts. The Soviets were great at public relations and disinformation. They could at will look weaker or stronger than they really were. Sometimes they appeared both simultaneously, and we swallowed it!

[AVGWarhawk]

Rockin Robin

Pilots sometimes mean more than technology or speed. On-paper stats are great, but combat results are where the rubber meets the road. Thankfully, we don't have the combat results on that one.

More often than not the aircraft can and does out perform the pilot. To no fault of the pilot.

[Rockin Robbins]

As a perfect example of where the pilots made the difference, we were sitting with a pantload of lousy P-39's nobody wanted to fly. What to do with those worthless pieces of cow squeeze? Hmmmmmmmm. SEND 'EM TO THE RUSSKIES!!!!

Nobody told the Soviets that the P-39 was a colossal loser. Their pilots jumped in those antiquated cast-offs and discovered a fleet of Klingon Battlecruisers. Our junk became their treasure. Oops. We might not have meant for that to be quite so successful.:oops:

[AVGWarhawk]

Jimmy Dolittle:

His next assignment put him at the controls of the new, twin-engine B-26 Marauder bomber, which pilots called the "widowmaker" because several had crashed. Its 100-mile-an-hour (160-kilometer-an-hour) landing speed and stubby wings made it tricky to handle. Doolittle proved that the B-26 was a safe and effective aircraft and convinced pilots that all they needed to do was learn how to fly it. Lieutenant General H. H. Arnold, the Chief of the Army Air Forces, gave Doolittle the job of proving that the B-26 was a safe and effective aircraft. Arnold was one of the first pilots in what would become the U.S. Army Air Forces and had received his wings in 1911 after being personally instructed by one of the Wright Brothers. Doolittle was successful in taming the B-26 Marauder and convinced pilots that all they needed to do was learn how to fly it properly.


Dolittle took the plane and demonstrated what it could do in this instance. Word has it he took off and shut an engine down, circled the field and landed it on the one engine. Dolittle was the pilot's pilot.

[Stealhead]

Yes the B-26 you know that they also called it the Baltimore Whore( Martin was based out of Baltimore) ? But it was good bomber it was just not as easy to fly as say a B-25. Also you guys mentioned the P-39 being used and rather succesful in the Red Air Force a factor that could have caused this was that on the Eastern Front air combat tended to occur at lower alts than in the west and the P-39 lacked any form of turdosupercharger which was not a good thing at the higer levels that where common on the Western Front but in the east the P-39 got to fly at levels where it was in its element. The P-39 to me is one of the unsung heros of WWII she was one of the front line fighters early in the war that may not have been the best but held the line none the less and also was a rugged plane as well.I used to have a neighbor who was a fighter pilot in WWII and he flew P-39s in the Pacific into late 1943 he got 4 of 6 total kills in the P-39 he felt that the P-39 had good concepts but that its lack of engine boosting and never fully solved stability(the mid-engine) issues are what hurt it most.He always felt that the Reds liked it because they where able to use the P-39 in its best element.

[Rockin Robbins]

OK time to come to Armistead's defense on the kamikaze attack there:D. Judging the man who kills his attacker using deadly force to defend himself as being just as guilty as his attacker, who was using deadly force attempting to kill him is just plain warped. The right to self-defense is a fundamental right.

Also, confronted by an aggressive foe, it is only natural for those who may be attacked by them (it was clear that Germany would attack somebody) to band together in binding treaties, requiring those nations to treat an attack on one of them as an attack by all. Honoring that treaty cannot be called the same heinous act as the attack on Poland which triggered those defensive actions. Surely this is obvious and beyond questioning.

Then, the aggressor is the one who determines the rules of engagement. The firebombing of London and Coventry set those expectations. The Germans were responsible for this. And they received what they dished out, justly and rightly. Just as leaders are responsible for their civilians, civilians are also often responsible for the actions of their leaders and bear the consequences. After all, those civilians are the supporting mechanism for those leaders, who cannot remain in their roles without popular support.

In war, often the case cannot be made for sparing innocent civilians. The question of "must innocent civilians die" is replaced, due to the manner of the aggressor, by the question "WHOSE innocent civilians will die?" Since the first duty of any government is to protect its civilians, the answer must be "the other side's civilians will die." Again, the necessity of even asking the question "whose innocent civilians will die" is forced by the behavior of the aggressor. There can be only one answer for a government honoring its commitment to its people. Failure to act on that resolve results in THEIR civilians dying.

Then there is the necessity to end a war by any means before resolve in the defending country is exhausted and they capitulate from mere war-weariness. This was the case in the American Civil War, where the copperheads and associated allies had just about convinced the populace of the North that the war was lost and thousands of lives were being unnecessarily lost in a lost cause. It was necessary to convince Union citizens that the war was winnable.

It was also necessary to convince the Southern populace that the war was lost. They could choose to keep fighting a guerilla war even after their armies were defeated if they saw a lack of resolve in the North. The means for ending the war decisively was Sherman's march to the sea and subsequent march north through to the birthplace of the rebellion and home of the hotheads who were really responsible for the war, Charleston.

Without that campaign, I don't think it mattered what Grant did against Lee. The defeat of Richmond would not have meant the loss of the Confederacy. Its heart and soul was Charleston. Sherman took the heart out of the Confederacy and ended the war. Even at that it can be argued that the war was really ended by John C Breckinridge and his determination that the war end cleanly with no guerilla fighting and unseemly hanging on to a lost cause. To end war, defeat must be embraced, causes abandoned and a new Union created.

[Armistead]

Well said RR...........I don't think people that come on these board and start crap like that are even serious or believe what they write, rather just trolls spamming forums trying to stir the pot for their
own wierd enjoyment.

Stealheas is right, best to ignore people like that and let them go find some attention elsewhere.

[Stealhead]

Yeah I did say that and then I still answered his post. Though with the bombshell to pretty much insult the entire forum I mean I know every memeber does not always get along with the other but that is just men being men but man what he said was too much.

Anyway we are giving him way to attention.Lets just pretend that WilyPete never was here.:shifty:
The victors always write the history right?:rotfl:

[Buddahaid]

Maybe there should be an insult other members sticky. :cool: And, I was wondering about the use of "japs". I just figured it was to entrenched in our memories from movies and such, and I never really thought it was derogatory to begin with. Just a shortening as is done for many words like "Nips". That one was a joke.

Buddahaid

[Stealhead]

I belive to be honest back in the pre-war era both Jap and Nip where used really as a shortened version of Japanese or Niponese and did not necessarily have a dirogatory meaning. Of course in the 1930's up when most americans where in support of the Chinese who of course where trying to fight Japan they did start to become dirogatory and most certainly it was dirogatory during the war though all sides have dirgatory terms for the opposing side.Huns,Krauts,Marconiies.

I myself will only type Jap after I have typed the full word Japanese in the same post so that it is more clear that I am using short hand.If I see that a member of the forum who is from Japan(I know there are several) and I notice that they have posted in the thread I will not use Jap as short hand at all in that thread.All though I do suppose it would be correct not to use Jap at all because it pretty much WWII and after seems bad.a good example I saw some news clip form the early 50s about some city in Ohio or some state and the people of this town gathered up all this money and used it to bring a group of Japanese women from Hiroshima and bring them to the states and they also paid for the women to have plastic surgery to reconstruct there faces(they had obviously been burned by the A-bombing) anyway in this entire clip they never used jap they always said japanese though when you see things susch as Victory at Sea from the same era they say jap in there some times.

I have seen Armistead post many times so based on how I read his style he does not seem to disliking japanese people at all he is either using jap as short hand or using it to make a more light hearted post have a more peroid feel.He can do things however he likes I am in no way trying to say he should or should not use "jap" that is his free choice.

Hey you could be like my grandmother who is not racist but does say things in the "old" tounge. Once while we where on a trip to Austraila we stopped off at Hawaii for a few days and at the Arizona memorial of all places her camera broke, and Pearl is a very popular place to visit for Japanese people, She said aloud "Oh it will be fine one of these Japaneseys can fix." and she asked this japanese man and he did fix the camera even though i know that he heard what she had said and did not take offence but what a place to hear such a thing even though she would not have been intending to offend.
Anyway Japan is a very important ally of the US now even though we have a still on some things touchy past they are good friends to have.And though they did do some bad things that was not every single japanese solider,sailor,airman. Some where actualy very good Saburo Sakai comes to mind he and his wingmen got inot a battle with a RAAF Hudson in July 1942 the Hudson came head on at the Zeros scattering them. Sakai later wrote the Australian Defence Minister years later describing the brave actions of the RAAF crew wanting them to recive posthumus awards the Australians denied it.He also at one point earlier in the war came across a DC-3 around Java Sakai flew past the plane he saw a woman with a baby on her lap through a window and let the plane keep flying.They did do some bad things but that was a bad goverment that was making unlawful orders lawful when that happens the person if they will obey or not but in a military setting refusal by a japanses solider to do someting he did not agree with would result in his death and most people do not belive in thier morals that strongly seeing as there refusal wont achive anything.

I do know that some Japanese Americans got stuck in Japan and some wound up being translaters at work camps many where still pro american and tried as best they could to help. A very good book I have read: Hells Guest it is written by a POW from Batan he wound up in 1945 at a work camp in Japan and they where lucky enough to get an american and he did try to get them food he even hepled plan out the sabotage of the work the POWs did he once showed them some film of how brain washed the the average japanese populace was. The POWs wrote a letter for the man to keep him from being punished by the allies and they all signed it with their names and service numbers in case there was any doubt.

[Armistead]

Any time I use jap is just to shorten the typing...I imagine that's the case for everyone here.

[Stealhead]

Yeah like the story about my grandmother the japanese man knew there was no ill meaning I guess that is why one has to hear or read the enitre context of a statement.

After all a person could make a racist statement and not use any direct "racial" names.

Armistead seems to be all right guy who loves his SH4. Now take his SH4 away and I dont know if Id want to be in the same room.I bet he would go Rambo.He does have all those yorkies I hear that they are deadly in numbers. He will send them to your house and they will take your SH4.:03:

[sharkbit]

He does have all those yorkies I hear that they are deadly in numbers. He will send them to your house and they will take your SH4.:03:

:haha::haha::haha::haha:

[Armistead]

Yeah like the story about my grandmother the japanese man knew there was no ill meaning I guess that is why one has to hear or read the enitre context of a statement.

After all a person could make a racist statement and not use any direct "racial" names.

Armistead seems to be all right guy who loves his SH4. Now take his SH4 away and I dont know if Id want to be in the same room.I bet he would go Rambo.He does have all those yorkies I hear that they are deadly in numbers. He will send them to your house and they will take your SH4.:03:

I've been laid up for so long, 3 months flat on my back, only got up to potty. Finally last month been able to get up and around some. I'll have to post a picture of how I rigged my bed to use the computer. Before this I probably played computer games once a month. Talk about being bored, I about went insane.....Have to admit this game helped to pass the time.

Unless you're a rat Yorkies are harmless....all bark.

[Armistead]

Yeah like the story about my grandmother the japanese man knew there was no ill meaning I guess that is why one has to hear or read the enitre context of a statement.

After all a person could make a racist statement and not use any direct "racial" names.

Armistead seems to be all right guy who loves his SH4. Now take his SH4 away and I dont know if Id want to be in the same room.I bet he would go Rambo.He does have all those yorkies I hear that they are deadly in numbers. He will send them to your house and they will take your SH4.:03:


We have a japanese couple that lives in our neighborhood. The man is somewhat older than the wife. I guess they abide by some old customs, when they walk around the block, his wife follows about 10 paces behind him. He will stop and talk and she will stop that far behind him. He has broken english but enjoys talking. Why we talk she looks down at her feet.

I'm only racist against stupid people.

[Stealhead]

Yeah I have a good friend from high school who is an officer in the Air Force and he is married to a ryukyuan that he dated while he was stationed in Okinawa.When he does his 20 years and retires he will move back to Okinawa with his wife. he said that they agreed to do that because in ryukyuan culture they have a very strong family and friendship bond.

I belive that the man leading the wife is an older part of japanese culture. I went through Tokyo a few times while I was TDY to Yakota AB and I noticed some old couples doing the same thing but not the younger people.

That would suck to be not able to move around like you where saying. I cant stand to sit around in one place for long thank god I have mechanical skills and have always had jobs that allow me to be up and on my feet doing something. Sitting in deskjob cube all day would drive me insane.

[don1reed]

As everyone reading this forum understands, no amount of colored cloth sewn with threads of symbolism has ever destroyed a single human being; just as we all understand that no matter what weapons we use in warfare has ever killed another fellow human, except for the will of opposing “entities” to actually use them.

Some Americans are adamant in their anger/hatred over the display of the Confederate, stars and bars, Civil War flag; even though they fully understand the flag didn’t put their ancestors into bondage, they are still very sensitive to what the symbol represented.

Symbols used in the context of a computerized war simulation or reenactment are not usually considered offensive as they are depicting historic events, as for as the computer simulation, one must privately open the program to view the contents; however, to display such potentially, hurtful symbols in one’s public signature might/would be considered poor taste and in some instances illegal.

I’m for the brotherhood of man, as are we all, and anything we might do to advance our spirit of friendship and common interest the better for all.

$0.02

[Brenjen]

My $.02

I had relatives killed by Germans in WWII & I had relatives killed by the Yankees during the war of Northern aggression & I don't hold any animosity towards either the Nazi or U.S. flags. They're part of the worlds history.

I see it sort of like the "guns kill people" argument; I've watched my many guns closely now for roughly thirty years & not one of them have ever killed anyone & it dawned on me that....in fact it's people who kill! I feel the same way about the flags, it's the people who wave them & spew BS that are to be the object of scorn, not the inanimate object.

It's freedom of speech in the United States of America to display those flags; if we allow a group of people who's feelings are hurt to dictate on this issue, what's to stop the next group from saying "games that glorify war shouldn't be allowed" - get my drift? I can't speak for other countries but we should allow even the most hated opinions in the U.S.A. lest we find our own opinions in danger of being curtailed.


( BTW, you may have wondered about the "war of northern aggression" statement above; I have a problem calling the war between the states a "civil" war because it's technically incorrect.....but I don't think we should ban the use of the phrase however incorrect it is....sort of like the flags ;) )

[don1reed]

It's freedom of speech in the United States of America to display those flags

Being an International simulation, however, causes the problem. The Swastika is banned by law in Germany since 1945, mainly, at this point in time, to thwart the Holocaust deniers. As long as Holocaust survivors still live, I can respect that law and the feelings of others from afar. Frankly, it's really not that great of a sacrifice to not publicly display something offensive to my neighbor.

Our freedom of speech doesn't allow us to yell fire in a crowded theater absent a real fire; not that this discussion comes anywhere close to that, but doing something just because we can doesn't necessarily mean it's right.

With respect: Just as some have not forgotten the "war of northern aggression" which ended 144 years ago...others still remember and suffered WWII.

cheers,

[Brenjen]

Being an International simulation, however, causes the problem. The Swastika is banned by law in Germany since 1945, mainly, at this point in time, to thwart the Holocaust deniers.....Frankly, it's really not that great of a sacrifice to not publicly display something offensive to my neighbor.

Hence the reason I said - "In the U.S.A." Only other countries can control what goes on in their territory. We are talking about the use of the flag on the forums aren't we?....I thought we were; as far as using the flag in game for historical accuracy my opinion doesn't change, in fact I'm even more pro-flag for reasons of historical accuracy. And if an individual country wishes to block a website or game that violates their laws it's up to them to do it.

Our freedom of speech doesn't allow us to yell fire in a crowded theater absent a real fire; not that this discussion comes anywhere close to that, but doing something just because we can doesn't necessarily mean it's right.

You hit the nail on the head; it doesn't really apply to this discussion so I'll leave it at that.

With respect: Just as some have not forgotten the "war of northern aggression" which ended 144 years ago...others still remember and suffered WWII.

cheers,

Oh certainly people still remember & suffer; in fact I'm in the camp of "lest we forget". As I said, I lost family members at the hands of German soldiers, & I lost many many more to the Federal govt. of the United States 144 years ago.

Now I agree whole heartedly that it's a painful chapter in the worlds history; all wars are but here's a question for you:

The Japanese killed millions of people too, some in just as slow & torturous ways as the Nazis did. My question is do we allow the Japanese flag to be flown without malice just because no white supremacists use it as a modern symbol? It's still the same flag after all & I'm sure if you posed the question to a Chinese that survived Nanking they'd see it as just as vile as any Nazi prison camp.

In the U.S. I say we ignore all the other nations laws that curtail an individuals opinion so that everyone has the right to feel the way they want to about it here. Because after all is said & done I think public opinion has more to do with the current use of a certain two flags by the white supremacists than what they stood for in the past.

No offense intended to anyone, just my opinion.

[don1reed]

I believe we're on the same sheet of music, Brenjen. I have no issue with historical accuracy inside the Sub sim, for all the reasons previously mentioned, that is a private matter for each player.
I just believe it's unnecessary to overtly display the Nazi swastika within one's public signature, for as you know, everything corresponded via the internet is pumped through a hugh filter due to the "patriot act". I just think there's no need for players to draw undue attention to themselves.

Have a great one,

[Kloef]

Using national symbols like an American flag is waaaaayyyy something different then displaying yourself with a swastika or any other Nazi-symbol..the difference is that Nazi's support an (absurd)ideoligy of the past and the American flag represents a country still in existance today and for years/centuries to come.

The SH4 simulation represents U.S submarines and their crews,so an U.S flag is appropriate,hell the game cant do without that!So an American flag in TMO is justified and not a big deal.

The SH3 simulation represents the Kriegsmarine u-boot fleet and yes they had nazi symbols on them,dont forget that the u-boots were an enormous propaganda weapon for the Nazi's although the Kriegsmarine was not really 'enthousiastic' about that role,mainly because of history and aristocratic structures within the kriegsmarine.

Putting swastikas on a boat in a simulator is not a big deal,we do it in movies all the time and let our children watch them!I for one like historical accuracy in movies and sims,but you have to be able to put everything in perspective.if you cant you should not be messing with these symbols as people are easily offended by them,and your personal opinion is less important then hurting people just because you think you can.Well its a sign of the times i guess,human respect is declining at a rocket speed rate.

But sigs with nazi symbols,thats a no go just out of respect of others,if you still think you have a right to use them then you lack certain socail skills and historical concience,but that's just my opinion.

People using these symbols are usually way out of context with history and human suffuring,and use them to shock or offend others,in that retrospect using them is wrong and still a crime today,at least in my country.And that's the way it should stay.

[Rockin Robbins]

As everyone reading this forum understands, no amount of colored cloth sewn with threads of symbolism has ever destroyed a single human being; just as we all understand that no matter what weapons we use in warfare has ever killed another fellow human, except for the will of opposing “entities” to actually use them.

blah, blah, blah...


I’m for the brotherhood of man, as are we all, and anything we might do to advance our spirit of friendship and common interest the better for all.

$0.02
Now THAT's a pantload of cow squeeze! Those colored cloths are part of the tools of manipulation and those weapons are the tools of destruction. Without them, the job couldn't be done. To blithely pretend they are harmless is a very nasty lie. "As everybody reading this forum" knows, it's not nice to try to tell them what they believe.

The way to effectively promote the brotherhood of man is to have lots of weapons and people trained and qualified to use them, so when some pipsqueak pops up and starts his chest thumping, the first time he starts picking on his neighbors he is killed as quickly and violently as possible. In that way the most lives are saved, both in the victim nations and in his own.

Peace comes only through resounding and final victory in war or the prevention of war by overwhelming force. Negotiating with rogue states is a one-way path to a hundred times more trouble. They need to know where the limits are and that the consequences of exceeding them will be swift and it will be terrible. The civilized nations need to be the ones setting the limits, not the rogue states.

"We shoot missiles pointing at you, but if you board a ship we declare war" doesn't cut it. Look pal, missiles launched in the direction of Japan or Hawaii are an act of war and we're real good at it. Try it and find out. If this is a game, you're the loser.

Why do you think Somalian pirates don't attack Russian ships? They know the consequences.

[Kloef]

off-topic

"We shoot missiles pointing at you, but if you board a ship we declare war" doesn't cut it. Look pal, missiles launched in the direction of Japan or Hawaii are an act of war and we're real good at it. Try it and find out. If this is a game, you're the loser.So what you are saying is when you attack us we attack you,Seoul gets about 18000 artillery shells fired on it in a single burst from the North,they counterattack with missiles lacking manpower and eventually China and Russia attack the U.S,resulting in a total nuclear war?

Well in that case we are all losers..cause thats one of the scenarios likely to happen..

[don1reed]

Actually, a civil response as, "I disagree and here are my reasons..." would have been sufficient, Robin. No need to loose one's temper or tilt at windmills.

The topic of [Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?]

It looks as if the title of this thread is asking each of us for an opinion, and as such, no one's opinion is more important than the next guy's. I could be wrong; but, IMHO is that those symbols were OK in the sim and mods, and it was my opinion that they should not be used in our public signatures. There, thats all I'm saying, feel free to respond.

All the best,

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, if it were easy, it would already be being done!:D

Nobody seems to have gotten it right in the 1930's and we're just repeating the pattern with a new tinhorn dictator. Time to make another kind of mistake rather than just repeat the last ones.

To use the analogy of a criminal, criminals prey on the weak. Best strategy in fighting criminals? Don't be weak. The message to the criminal must be that there is no way to get away with it. Then they will find another victim or find another line of work.

I'm surprised you didn't come up with the "who says you're right" argument. That's the real tough one, because power tends to corrupt and you have to find a way to keep the powerful uncorrupted. I don't know how to accomplish that either.:oops:

Still, cooperation between civilized nations bringing total force against rogue nations, using force to obtain and enforce the peace is the best solution, although is is a flawed one, that there is.

[don1reed]

:haha:
:salute: