[Req] Flak Damage

[Warhawk]

Ok, I searched and looked..but couldn't find an answer anywhere

I have a VII/B early '42 w/ dual zwelling 20mm mounts...on air attacks my guys light up the incoming aircraft, 8-10 hits easy..but the planes keep coming...

I am sorry..if you hit a plane with a few 20mm AA rounds..that sucker is coming out of the sky, ok I will even go so far as giving it barely survivable chances with 3-4 (I'm talking direct engine hits, not wing or fuselage hits)

Is there any way to increase the damage done by the flak guns to aircraft?

And a 20mm AA gun within 1000 yards on a standard cookie cutter cargo ship during WWII it would be a floating gazebo (standard construction steel was approx 1/4" thick and wasn't hardened)..well for a little while anyway.

Thanks in advance

[Jimbuna]

You'd be suprised how much damage a plane could sustain.

What version of the game are you playing?

If it's GWX, then yes, the planes are a little tougher to 'down' due to popular demand....but they are definitely not invincible.

Be advised:

If you tweak the hitting power of a given calibre you also do so for the same calibre throughout the game, regardless of which side/unit uses it.

[Warhawk]

SHIII GWX3.0

I have an ultra crap puter...Sempron 3600, Gig of RAM, Nvidia 5700 (it loads but takes 7 min!!)

Yah most WWII planes could sustain a ton of damage from smaller caliber rounds..the .303 and .50 cal rounds would really tear em up but they would keep on flying..but it wasn't till they started putting the 20mm guns on them did the damage start.

I'm watching the planes dive in...I can count and hear the rounds plink plink plinking off the front of the aircraft but nothing..no smoke..no damage...and the KABOOM "were taking damage" (all the while I am turning circles at flank speed {the tricks I learned from the forums})

I mean if a plane with a .50 can hole up and damage the almost 1" thick pressure hull of a sub..don't you think a 20mm would turn a .023 thick aluminum plane into Swiss cheese..especially if a round went thru one of the jugs on their radial engines?

Is there a .cfg or .txt file I can edit to double or triple the damage by the AA guns...just to see the effect.

And tweaking the damage is understandable...I would be very afraid of a fighter coming in with a 20mm gun in its nose as it would turn my sub into Swiss cheese like it would do the same to a cargo ship from my boat.

(and/or) make the daggum planes a bit weaker like in 2.1, these things ain't flying tanks ya know

[Jimbuna]

Is there a .cfg or .txt file I can edit to double or triple the damage by the AA guns...just to see the effect.


Not that I'm aware of....the only way I know of is to do what I suggested above, with the resultant consequences.

[Task Force]

couldnt he lower the aircrafts hit points.:hmmm:

[Warhawk]

couldnt he lower the aircrafts hps.:hmmm:

K where are the aircraft HP files...oh wait..under campaign right?

[Jimbuna]

couldnt he lower the aircrafts hit points.:hmmm:

K where are the aircraft HP files...oh wait..under campaign right?

Task Force should sort you out from here :up:

[Madox58]

The hit points are in the .zon file

[Warhawk]

Yikes..in HEX..don't think I am going to be modifying that...yikes!

[Madox58]

I'm not sure if S3D addresses that area yet.
But TimeTravellers Mini tweaker will.
It's a very easy adjustment.
Even in HEX.

[Bronzewing]

Main thing that bugs me is when you hit and damage an airplane and it just buzzes around you, on fire, outside flack range radioing your loacation to the Royal navy. IRL if an airplane was on fire it was doomed. Either you cut fuel and put the fire out, or you bailed out. I once had a burning aircraft circling me for over half an hour. Would there be some way to make fire's effects more realistic?

[melnibonian]

Have a look at this http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=531580&postcount=22. The issue has been discussed in the past. I do recommend you read through the whole thread as there are some interesting points you might find interesting to you.

[Bronzewing]

What I find interesting about that link is the declaration that most aircraft of the ww2 period were "wood or fabric" Oh really? Funny, I've seen quite a few in museums and most of them are made from Sheet Aluminium over light alloy frames. The only fabric covered airplanes in SH3 are the Swordfish and the Wellington. and both those had steel frames not wood. IRL aircraft were hard to hit due to their small frontal cross section and high speed. but they were very easily damaged. The only armour in a Hurricane for example was the back of the pilot's seat and the front of the cockpit glass. 20mm rounds were perfectly capable of punching clean through the wings of aircraft if they hit directly.
http://www.100thbg.com/mainmenus/349th/images01/1_03_1.jpg

[melnibonian]

What I find interesting about that link is the declaration that most aircraft of the ww2 period were "wood or fabric" Oh really? Funny, I've seen quite a few in museums and most of them are made from Sheet Aluminium over light alloy frames. The only fabric covered airplanes in SH3 are the Swordfish and the Wellington. and both those had steel frames not wood. IRL aircraft were hard to hit due to their small frontal cross section and high speed. but they were very easily damaged. The only armour in a Hurricane for example was the back of the pilot's seat and the front of the cockpit glass. 20mm rounds were perfectly capable of punching clean through the wings of aircraft if they hit directly.


If you read the entire thread carefully you will see that the statement about fabric or wood was made with regards to the Swordfish and the Wellington.

Refarding damages on planes one must remember that a plane falls off the sky when the pilot dies or when a vital part is hit. In (most) WWII planes all the vital parts were located around the engine and the pilot. Therefore holes on the fuselage were not enough to bring the plane down unless the bullets hit cables or other instruments. Taking into consideration that most of the fuselage was empty on those planes a few holes did not cause so much of a problem.

[Bronzewing]

You specifically said "Most of the airplanes of the time were made out of wood or fabric." That is a direct quote.

[Dowly]

While I agree that the planes in GWX shouldnt be able to take that much of an punishment (IIRC, 2-3 30mm rounds was the average for downing an 4-engined bomber, so 20mm should be able to take out an fighter with just about the same amount of ammo), I do agree with which I think was one of the reasons the planes were made as tough as they are; you arent supposed to duel it out with them and they were deadly IRL, either they sank you or radioed your position back home and if you were unlucky, there just might've been enem ASW group close enough to rush there and throw a few DC's at you.

[Jimbuna]

Dowly is correct....the aircraft were beefed up because it was too easy to shoot them down in stock.

It is still possible to shoot them down after 2-3 passes in GWX but the potential resultant damage to your boat is a consequence you now have to consider, as was the case in RL.

At one point the U-boats were given standard orders to remain on the surface and fight it out when spotted by aircraft. They had their AA armament beefed up and some boats were even equipped as specialist U-flacks but the catastrophic consequences soon led to that order being rescinded.

We at GWX are always mindful that one size will never fit all but strive to accommodate as many users as possible.

Quite simply, we built it to suit our tastes and preferences....and hopefully to a level acceptable to as many others as possible.

As Melnibonian has correctly pointed out, this topic has been aired on several occasions in the past and as such is open to individual opinions and conclusions.

[Warhawk]

I'm not sure if S3D addresses that area yet.
But TimeTravellers Mini tweaker will.
It's a very easy adjustment.
Even in HEX.

Negative...I got the mini tweaker and it does not recognize the "HP" of the aircraft in the .zon file.

[Warhawk]

Ok, I think I found them...the HP are under ColisionableObject correct?

I am going to build a "practice" mod under the JSGME to test and see if it helps much.

I will set them for 60% of their original strengths to test.

[A6Intruder]

Ok, I think I found them...the HP are under ColisionableObject correct?

I am going to build a "practice" mod under the JSGME to test and see if it helps much.

I will set them for 60% of their original strengths to test.

Interesting work. If it will work i think a lot of people would like to see your mod released.
I do not know the difference between Vanilla SH3 and GWX aircraft strength but i think the middle would be right.:up:
Best regards


PS: @dowly: Something new out of your factory?

[Dowly]

ps: @dowly: Something new out of your factory?

Nevaaah!! :D

[A6Intruder]

Nevaaah!! :D

:cry:
Best regards

[Contact]

Nevaaah!! :D

What a babe! :arrgh!:

[Warhawk]

OK...went thru and edited all aircraft from the original GWX 3.0 Gold files down to 60% (rounding to nearest whole number) of HP.

I was reading thru the manual and alot of these aircraft have .30 guns..some have .50...yet they tear the ever loving crap out of the sub...sending screaming 20mm lead back at them (wait...ain't the 20mm rounds explosive as well!?!?) should tear them out of the sky rather regularly [as long as you have a good flak gunner]

http://www.2shared.com/file/6214986/99990143/Easierplanes.html

use JGSME to put into your SHIII (aka...put it in the MOD directory under your SHIII main dir)

Remember this is a test..I have yet tested it...I might have made the airplanes flying paper so it can be tweaked as needed..however I feel that 60% is a good place to start

Not really a "MOD" persay..but a personal tweak

The regulars here please check these out and inform me if I have not done these correctly...I really don't know the SOP on creating mods or tweaking

[Warhawk]

Page 107 from GWX 3.0 Manual
Most countries (except the U.S.) began installing 20mm cannon on their fighters to combat bomber aircraft, with bomber aircraft (except those of the U.S.) generally using 0.303-caliber machine guns for self-defense; the U.S. adopted the 0.50-caliber machine gun for both fighters and bombers. Exploding 20mm cannon shells had several times the destructive power of a solid 0.50-caliber bullet, but the U.S. appears to have selected the 0.50-caliber machine gun as its primary air-to-air weapon since:
2) U.S. fighter aircraft had large airframes and powerful engines that could support carrying a large number of machine guns and their ammunition;
3) Most German fighters (except for jets) and all Japanese aircraft easily succumbed to 0.50-caliber gunfire

20mm cannon would beat the ever loving bejesus out of aircraft...hope this tweak helps!

[A6Intruder]

Thanks for your mod. I am testing, untill now only on flak-training. First result: The Swordish ist to weak. I shot down all in minutes but i did not got any Hurricane. Maybe blamed on only a single 2cm? I saw several hits on the plane but no results. Testing will going on.:up:
Best regards

[Warhawk]

Yah I noticed that too last night...the slow moving biplane Swordfish got eaten up real fast by the flak..but the really fast Hurricanes were difficult to hit.

I played the normal campaign as well after I tested...still unable to down a PBY Catalina and they are slow moving too (It could be because I have single 20mm because of the 8 second reload time for the double guns...perhaps the double guns would fare better)

I guess crash diving and turning still is the absolute best defense against aircraft!

My campaign is in mid/late June 1942 and I am having "Happy Times" withdrawls!!

I think I found why!

Large aircraft have WAY high armor levels and large HP compared to fighters, some fighters have high armor levels as well but reduced hp.

The Swordfish has 54HP and .5 armor, the Hurricane has 50HP and .5 armor but is MUCH faster, smaller, and harder to hit, the Sunderland has 118HP and 8.0 armor!! I mean cmon..they are huge..but they are made of the same flimsy aluminum sheeting and rivets as the fighters.

I think all aircraft should have the same armor level (1.0) then adjust the HP accordingly...this way airplanes are on an even keel against weapons damage..but the HP being higher on the bombers gives them the advantage of taking more damage before catastrophic failure.

New fix..all aircraft will be 1.0 armor and the same 60% HP of the GWX 3.0 Gold release (if this makes them too weak..then I might experiment with 1.0 armor and original GWX HP scheme.

Aircraft are flimsy, which means they are all unarmored...but the fact that the bulk of the airplane is empty space makes it resilient by design..but the occasional lucky shot will cause MASSIVE catastrophic damage to it.

K here is the new MK1 issue...please let me know how the planes go

http://www.2shared.com/file/6225399/e2b6b5f0/Easierplanesmk1.html

Is there anyone out there that can generate a "single mission" to where each and every class of enemy plane will do a flyby one at a time?

Remember this is NOT a MOD..its a personal tweak!

[Warhawk]

118 aircraft shot down by 97 individual U-boats for the loss of 31 U-boats either sunk during the attack or due to being located by other forces shortly afterwards and sunk.

One source says that RAF Coastal Command (http://www.uboat.net/allies/aircraft/raf_coastal.htm) (U-boat hunters) lost 700 aircraft (badly damaged, shot down and paid off - not all to U-boats of course) and sank 220 U-boats during the war. I've been unable to verify the RAF losses but the U-boat figure is about right it seems. These figures show the immense effort put out by the British to hunt down the U-boats and almost all the aircraft successes took place in 1942 and later.

http://www.uboat.net/history/aircraft_losses.htm

Yah the u-boats may have gotten its butt handed to it by aircraft...but by these historic numbers....the u-boats dished out at least 3x as much destruction to aircraft.

[Cohaagen]

http://www.uboat.net/history/aircraft_losses.htm

Yah the u-boats may have gotten its butt handed to it by aircraft...but by these historic numbers....the u-boats dished out at least 3x as much destruction to aircraft.

No, you're missing the point - the attrition rate was decidedly against their favour.

One fighter-bomber lost = 2 killed
One heavy bomber lost = 5 - 7 killed
One U-boat lost = approx. 50 killed

Moreover, the materiel cost of the construction and maintenance of one U-boat was far greater than that of even the largest bomber aircraft. A single Type VII, never mind the larger IX boats, was far more expensive, labour-costly and draining on resources than a whole squadron of ASW bombers - any one of which could sink a U-boat far more easily than the sub could down it.

[A6Intruder]

Yah I noticed that too last night...the slow moving biplane Swordfish got eaten up real fast by the flak..but the really fast Hurricanes were difficult to hit.

I played the normal campaign as well after I tested...still unable to down a PBY Catalina and they are slow moving too (It could be because I have single 20mm because of the 8 second reload time for the double guns...perhaps the double guns would fare better)

I guess crash diving and turning still is the absolute best defense against aircraft!

My campaign is in mid/late June 1942 and I am having "Happy Times" withdrawls!!

I think I found why!

Large aircraft have WAY high armor levels and large HP compared to fighters, some fighters have high armor levels as well but reduced hp.

The Swordfish has 54HP and .5 armor, the Hurricane has 50HP and .5 armor but is MUCH faster, smaller, and harder to hit, the Sunderland has 118HP and 8.0 armor!! I mean cmon..they are huge..but they are made of the same flimsy aluminum sheeting and rivets as the fighters.

I think all aircraft should have the same armor level (1.0) then adjust the HP accordingly...this way airplanes are on an even keel against weapons damage..but the HP being higher on the bombers gives them the advantage of taking more damage before catastrophic failure.

New fix..all aircraft will be 1.0 armor and the same 60% HP of the GWX 3.0 Gold release (if this makes them too weak..then I might experiment with 1.0 armor and original GWX HP scheme.

Aircraft are flimsy, which means they are all unarmored...but the fact that the bulk of the airplane is empty space makes it resilient by design..but the occasional lucky shot will cause MASSIVE catastrophic damage to it.

K here is the new MK1 issue...please let me know how the planes go

http://www.2shared.com/file/6225399/e2b6b5f0/Easierplanesmk1.html

Is there anyone out there that can generate a "single mission" to where each and every class of enemy plane will do a flyby one at a time?

Remember this is NOT a MOD..its a personal tweak!

The results are the same as mentioned above. Flak Training.
Best regards:hmmm:

[Letum]

400 u-boats where sunk by aircraft.

155 by CC
31 by FAA
159 by USAAF and USN
17 by RCAF
2 by RNAF
29 by RAAF
1 by PAF
2 by ALA
2 by CEF
1 by SAAF
and 1 by FAB

Between 100 and 200 aircraft where shot down by uboats.

That would give a advantage of at least 2:1 to the aircraft, but that does
not account for the fact that the majority of uboats sunk did not fire back.

[Warhawk]

400 u-boats where sunk by aircraft.

155 by CC
31 by FAA
159 by USAAF and USN
17 by RCAF
2 by RNAF
29 by RAAF
1 by PAF
2 by ALA
2 by CEF
1 by SAAF
and 1 by FAB

Between 100 and 200 aircraft where shot down by uboats.

That would give a advantage of at least 2:1 to the aircraft, but that does
not account for the fact that the majority of uboats sunk did not fire back.

Mind if I ask where you got your numbers?

[Warhawk]

No, you're missing the point - the attrition rate was decidedly against their favour.

One fighter-bomber lost = 2 killed
One heavy bomber lost = 5 - 7 killed
One U-boat lost = approx. 50 killed

Moreover, the materiel cost of the construction and maintenance of one U-boat was far greater than that of even the largest bomber aircraft. A single Type VII, never mind the larger IX boats, was far more expensive, labour-costly and draining on resources than a whole squadron of ASW bombers - any one of which could sink a U-boat far more easily than the sub could down it.

I understand that fully...the fact is that "realistically" the way the aircraft are set in GWX is too hard...a well trained submariner should be able to down many aircraft with well placed 20mm fire, not always but with enough warning (the ones that were sunk were usually surprised by fast moving fighters without enough time for a crash dive or pummeled by a bomber that just wouldn't go down) but the fact is and the numbers from the uboat.net show that more often than not the sub got the upper hand in the fight (not always)...the unlucky ones went to the bottom.

And yes..the war of attrition is what did the uboats in...10 even 100 aircraft downed by a single sub for one sub sent to the bottom brought the allies just that much closer to gaining control of the seas once more.

The guns were marginally effective overall...it was proven that diving was the best defense against aircraft.
http://www.uboat.net/technical/flak.htm But knowing you should have a fighting chance would make things more realistic.

[A6Intruder]

I met in campain 2 Hudsons, 2 Kingfisher and several Martlets. Every plane did several (7-8) offences. With two twins 2cm i got one Hudson. My feeling about our tweak is that there is not a big difference to standard GWX. Is`nt it? Maybe an other screw to turn?:hmmm:
I like that your are working on it. Please stay tuned!:salute:
Best regards

[Warhawk]

I met in campain 2 Hudsons, 2 Kingfisher and several Martlets. Every plane did several (7-8) offences. With two twins 2cm i got one Hudson. My feeling about our tweak is that there is not a big difference to standard GWX. Is`nt it? Maybe an other screw to turn?:hmmm:
I like that your are working on it. Please stay tuned!:salute:
Best regards

Ok..they got 7-8 passes on your sub?

Most fighters armor wasn't reduced that much...some were reduced from 1.5 to 1.0 (all aircraft now have 1.0 armor) the HP assigned to the planes were reduced to 60% rounded to the nearest whole number) of the GWX

Anyone know where I can find the damage listing for the 20mm cannon? Should it be doing "MORE" damage.

My buddy says a .50cal armor piercing round is more than capable of penetrating 1 1/8" steel plating at 1000 yards (he owns a single action .50) so a 20mm should be able to damage a sub substantially and also hurt ships and smaller craft just as well. [just going by real world examples and from other peoples experiences] Keeping with history...not all aircraft carried large caliber weapons, they specially built or assigned aircraft to anti-sub duties that were retrofitted with 20mm+ weapons.

I was on the .50cal team in the Marines...and let me tell you...I would NOT want to be on the receiving end of one of those...let alone a 20mm!

The slower moving torpedo planes were sitting ducks in anti-aircraft fire, I have seen documentaries where entire flights (or all but 1 or 2) of
TBD Devastator were downed enroute to torpedo enemy ships, the dive bombers fared better because they came in hot and fast, not so much as the slow movers, it wasn't until the TBF Avenger come to play did the odds get better (it was faster)

[Letum]

Mind if I ask where you got your numbers?

As many places as I could.
It took considerable time.

Googlebooks is a good place to start.

[Letum]

Regarding 20mm hits per aircraft.
I have a good source for a single engine fighter taking 21 x 20mm hits with an
additional 200+ smaller caliber impacts when inspected on landing. (Robert S.
Johnson's plane - June '43).

That seams to be in the upper end for endurance for fighters.
Of course, multi-engines planes have back-up systems and their critical
components are more spread out. They would be far more likely to take more
hits without having to break off.

That said, all it takes is one hit in the right spot.

[Warhawk]

Regarding 20mm hits per aircraft.
I have a good source for a single engine fighter taking 21 x 20mm hits with an
additional 200+ smaller caliber impacts when inspected on landing. (Robert S.
Johnson's plane - June '43).

That seams to be in the upper end for endurance for fighters.
Of course, multi-engines planes have back-up systems and their critical
components are more spread out. They would be far more likely to take more
hits without having to break off.

That said, all it takes is one hit in the right spot.

WOW!
http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_rsj.html

The Thunderbolt was known as a flying tank! Thus the name for the A-10, which by the way has been capable of flying with part of the wing, 1 engine and 1 rudder missing...

I'm not saying the aircraft are made of glass..but compared to a tank or battleship, or uboat..they are about as tough as crumpled paper...their saving grace is they are fast fast fast.

"Hub" Zemke liked the P-51 because it had great range, but he put one in a dive and when he pulled out he ripped the wings off that airplanesometimes it doesn't even take a bullet.

I love WWII aircraft..thus my nick! The P-40...aka the AVG of FG-15 in China

[johan_d]

I understand the GWX reason, but gamewise I would have a bit more success with the aircraft.
Gamers often want to survive after hecktic missions.. otherwise it becomes frustrating.

[Warhawk]

I understand the GWX reason, but gamewise I would have a bit more success with the aircraft.
Gamers often want to survive after hectic missions.. otherwise it becomes frustrating.

Absolutely! (however for realistic and historic purposes..it SUCKED to be on a uboat 30K out of 36k never made it back!!)

The biggest issue I have right now is taking the "armor" and "HP" basis for what GWX used and then tweaking it to where the u-boat has a fighting chance~ish..

I don't want a u-boat that can kill every plane, every time, with 1 shot..but I do what a plane that after taking a few hits may go down. The u-boats that were sunk usually were surprised and/or could NOT crashdive fast enough to escape. I would almost venture to say that if they did go toe to toe with a single plane they would have come out on top a bit more often than not...now toe to toe against several planes is a much different story!

I guess I will have to do some research and see what the "stock" version HP and armor were...and then compare it to GWX, then come up with a happy medium.

Anyone willing to assist?

I believe the 20mm and 37mm guns are "low powered" in their damages...(on both sides)

A u-boat would NOT want to get within range of a ship or a gunboat with a 20mm or 37mm gun..and an airplane should not want to either!

[Letum]

I often play the flightsim IL2.
In the simulation there is a late war VIIC and a IIB.

I ran a test mission attacking the subs first with a Hurricane IIc

The IIB hardly posed little threat. Taking more than 5 20mm hits was bad for
me, but so long as I flew a good attack pattern and not lazy loops, the IIB
was unlikely to hit me. I flew several runs before it sank.

The VIIC was much more fearsome with 1x37mm and 2xdubble 20mm cannons.
Most of my attacks ended up in me being badly damaged unless I fired at very
long range. Flying over the boat was not a safe option. I did not have enough
ammo in the Hurricane to make a good impact from range. Time for a better
plane!

Bombing with the Mosquito wasn't a walk in the park. It is not a tough plane
and I often took 3-4 hits. This was never fatal, but could be enough to make
me want to RTB. I could drop my bombs over 90% of the time. If anything,
strafing was a little easier. If I aimed at the conning tower I could take out
2/3 guns each pass. Out of 10 separate attempts I was shot down twice
by a single hit from the 37mm and had to RTB once after several 20mm hits.

Finally I tried with a B24 heavy bomber. This was a walk in the park.
IL2s Uboat would have to be very, very lucky to shoot that down.


IL2 isn't a uboat simulator at all. The flak guns are not effected by the rocking
of the waves and it takes several cannon hits to disable the u-boats guns.
It would not be right to use it as anything but the roughest of guides.

I would conclude from it that any small aircraft with out bombs is not a critical
threat to a mid/late war u-boat, but anything with bombs or rockets is a big
threat and very likelyto be able to make at least one pass. Medium sized
planes with cannon are just as much a threat.

I would rather be in the airoplane any day.

[johan_d]

If you take the strange manouvres of the planes into account, they should be gunned down easily. A real aircraft would turn a lot further away, giving the uboat diving time.
Also, as a vidid flightsimmer for many years, I know it is hard to find something in open water.
The aircraft spotting is too good imho!

Furthermore, the faster a plane flies the harder it is to aim correctly, also the higher it is, see for example the Mervile bombings.

The trick is imho to make it so that with some clever and fast reactions one can either down a plane or escape in the deep.
Now its always a no-no to even try, since the uboat guns are highly inaccurate and cause barely any damage, but the planes guns will!

[BulSoldier]

I dont know if it has been mantioned here , but the 37mm AA gun was the best aa gun of its caliber in the war.I cant remember the source but it was considerably more useful even that quad 20mm gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3.7_cm_FlaK_43

[Warhawk]

I dont know if it has been mantioned here , but the 37mm AA gun was the best aa gun of its caliber in the war.I cant remember the source but it was considerably more useful even that quad 20mm gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3.7_cm_FlaK_43

Same thing with the 40mm Bofors upgrades on our ships...