SH3 ships damage model

[roadhogg]

Hi all,
i'm playing a mission where the German heavy cruiser Prince Eugen steams in to visual range..
Problem is, she normally has to take some fire from a couple of British DD's, which more often than not leave her dead in the water, but with very little gunfire damage. It's getting sickening to see the ship looking almost pristine, but stationary.
By contrast, i cannot remember any occasion where a British heavy cruiser has been stopped by a few shell rounds from DD's. Normally they'll keep sailing merrily along until they've taken so much gunfire damage you can't see the paintjob anymore, and if they're not actually sunk they quite often keep going.
I'm talking gunfire damage here, not torpedoes.
Regarding the stationary bit, i've tried it with the Hipper and Lutzow too, the German cruisers all seem to have the same problem.
Is there a fix?

Also, the Lutzow bobs from side to side in the water like a cork, as if her centre of gravity is too high or the hull too narrow.
Is it the LR and UD drag figures in the ships sim file that are responsible for this?
I've not played with them yet. They seem similar to other ships, but i'd love to stabilize her a bit in the water. It must be a miracle if she can hit anything she fires at, i'd have more luck with my deck gun i think.

[roadhogg]

I guess nobody knows then?
I suppose most ppl spend so much of their time hunting the enemy alone, they may never have seen one of their own heavy cruisers under fire.
I hope if they ever do, it's not brought to a halt by a little destroyer fire.
Bit of a disappointment really.

[Graf Paper]

So why not mod these ships so they'll behave more as you would expect?

Grab Silent 3ditor (S3D) from skwas' website and dig into the .dat, .sim, and .zon files. I can tell you that the .zon file has a lot to do with how a vessel takes damage and the .sim file determines some of a vessel's behaviors but the .dat file is where you would look for many crucial items, such as center of gravity.

Looking forward to your release of this mod. Don't forget a catchy name for it! :up:

[CWorth]

Well lets just ignore the post above mine and go from there.

Maybe if you can list what mods you have running with your game someone may see one that conflicts with another that could cause this sort of behavior.

I personally have never seen this,but I also do not go out of my way to find German ships so rarely if ever see any except in port and while leaving port.

As for the post above mine.It makes more sense to try and troubleshoot what may be causing the problem first before trying to fix something that may not need that kind of fix.

[roadhogg]

Thankyou both for replying :)

Graf Paper it's just a single mission i've made because i got fed up with having careers mess up. Furthest i ever got was about June 44, before i had to abandon the career due to messed up saves, so after playing most of the single missions i just figured i'd work on a single mission that would keep me entertained for a number of hours gameplay, and instead of finding the enemy, they'd come and find me as i and the pride of the German carrier fleet ran the gauntlet through British waters.

Therefore it's not a mod release, but you're welcome to the mission if you want it.

CWorth (anything to do with Cosworth by chance? :D ) . . . i have very few mods running actually, on GWX 3 with
Community Units for GWX 3
VonDos armed liners ( a folder i made up to add all of VonDos's ships in one hit for JSGME)
RN CV Glorious ( cos it's not been incorporated in the above yet)
Gerome's Bismark-Tirpitz multiskin
Torpedo damage final version 2
The Q-ship mod
A Green atlantic 8k ( different sea colour for the 8k atmosphere)

That's it.

I think personally that theres a numerical error somewhere in the damage model for the German cruisers, but probably no ones noticed cos most people don't see the German cruisers under fire regularly, if ever.

I've looked in various folders and files, and it looks like the problem might be in zone 5 in the .zon files (which corresponds with number 5 in the zones.cfg index), but i daren't touch it cos in that section are x,y and z co-ordinates with numerical values ( to 4 or 5 dec. points) and i could make it worse, or make the game crash by messing with it.

A bit of advice from a ship modeller who knows how to set the armour levels for the engine rooms on the German cruisers is what i need really, but they're not forth coming lol.

While i'm on damage models, to have the Graf Zeppelin aircraft carrier sunk by a destroyer seems a bit much as well, which is another thing nobody will probably have noticed.

The Illustrious and Graf Zeppelin should be more like VonDos's CV Glorious . . . tough to sink with gunfire but without the big guns.

But thanks again for trying to help, the post has been up for almost a week ( or at least it feels like it) and nobody previously replied before you two.
. . . much appreciated :DL.

I might have to bend VonDos's ear soon, or pick his brains etc.

Can't have my comrades conking out every time they see an enemy shell lol.

[onelifecrisis]

I'm afraid I can't help, but I am curious about something...

While i'm on damage models, to have the Graf Zeppelin aircraft carrier sunk by a destroyer seems a bit much as well, which is another thing nobody will probably have noticed.

The Illustrious and Graf Zeppelin should be more like VonDos's CV Glorious . . . tough to sink with gunfire but without the big guns.

Are you saying that IRL a destroyer would not have been able to sink a carrier? I know nothing about this stuff, but I know that the sole purpose of a destroyer is to destroy sh!t (the clue is in the name ;)) and I know that an aircraft carrier is basically a floating warehouse full of fuel and ammunition, so, I'm thinking... 2+2=4?

[roadhogg]

Hi onelife,
i'm no expert myself either, but if you were going to build a floating fuel, ammunition and aircraft warehouse, and it's purpose was to make war, would you give it a wafer thin shell that couldn't withstand even the small shells a destroyer fires?

Personally i'd give it the next best thing to the resilience of a battleship.

I'd certainly give the hull and deck thick armour plating, so that it wasn't liable to explode or sink when coming under fire from anything with a deck gun.

Having said that, i gather the japs built their early carriers with wooden decks, a decision they were later to greatly regret.

About as daft as fitting 11 inch turrets to the Scharnhorst and Gneisenua when all the British BB's had 15's. They were due for 15 inch refits that they never got.

As for destroyers, seems to me they were multi-purpose vessels, built to protect other vessels and ward off attack.
By necessity, bearing in mind thier role as protector and sub hunter, they would be small ( a harder target to hit) and agile.
Bigger guns would require a bigger boat (stable gun platform and resistance to recoil effects) bigger engines to achieve the same performance, easier target to hit etc.
Sure, they had a lot of fire power for their size, but against an aircraft carrier?

Somehow i doubt it.

Just my uninformed opinion tho, obviously we need someone with a bit of knowledge of aircraft carriers to sort us out :DL

[roadhogg]

I just Googled "WW2 aircaft carrier" onelife and found an article on the Graf Zep.
Apparently she was scuttled by the Germans in 45 just before the Russians overran Germany, but was refloated and towed back to Russia.
Her final fate was to be used as target practice by the Russians.
Aerial bombs were placed in her hangers, flight deck and smoke stack.
She was then bombed and shelled by aircraft and warships, but after 24 hits from a combination of bombs and warship shells she was still afloat, and had to be finished off by torpedoes.
It also says the Germans didn't have the carrier design experience of the British, which suggests to me that the Illustrious class would have had even better attack resistance.
Obviously under those circumstances the Graf Zep didn't have any cargo onboard ( fuel, ammo,aircraft) although with bombs placed inside her and presumably detonated before resorting to torpedoes, she had the next best thing.

But somehow i still don't think a destroyer or two could have much effect :03:

Just kiddin with you mate, don't take it serious fgs lol.

[roadhogg]

Oooh . . i never noticed, i've become a torpedoman.

Deepie joy :D

[Graf Paper]

Really, CWorth, your assumptions and comments weren't all that helpful. Putting aside the issue of your lack of manners, if you're going to denigrate another's advice, the least you could do is take some pains to describe the steps for precisely how he should test for any probable causes to the fault described. :nope:

It depends on the approach roadhogg wishes to take in addressing this suspected bug.

Assuming it can be narrowed down to a conflicting mod, you'll have two choices on how to deal with it:

roadhogg, if you really like the mods you have enabled, and wish for the ships to work properly with those mods, then you will have to resort to some fine-tuning and get things rebalanced by modifying the ships. You can then create a mod, containing those fixes, which can be enabled and easily disabled with the use of JSGME. This allows for making any changes temporary, should you need to go back and tweak things a bit more or scrap the fixes altogether if they have undesirable effects on the game.

If you'd rather opt for relative simplicity and sacrifice an add-on mod, should it turn out to be the culprit, then CWorth's approach would be the preferred solution. Either way, it's your choice, RH. I'm sure we'd all help in any way we can if you're willing to get involved in the process.


As for the merits of carriers and destroyers:

I'm no scholar on the specifics of aircraft carrier design but Graf Zepplin was a very modern-looking carrier for her time, to my eyes. As for toughness, look at how American fleet carriers took a real pounding from kamikaze attacks, yet managed to stay afloat. A "Zero" loaded with a few hundred pounds of explosives certainly packs a wallop.

Of course, destroyers are no slouch in combat, either. There's a reason why it bore the brunt in naval engagements. As kaleuns in SH3, we primarily see the destroyer only in its role as an ASW vessel so we tend to not think of it as a ship-of-the-line. Despite its light armor and armaments, the DD's agility,speed, and versatility made it a serious threat to just about anything short of a battleship (and even one of those could be whittled down to size, given enough time or destroyers attacking). It was manufactured in far greater numbers than all other fleet ships combined and saw more action, in various combat roles, than any other class or type of frontline warship. No wonder command of a DD in WWII became regarded as the fastest way for ambitious and capable officers to be promoted in the U.S. Navy...if they lived long enough!

It would be interesting to find out if there ever were any battles where a fleet carrier was attacked by one or more destroyers and what sort of damage the DD's guns inflicted. :hmmm:

It's remarkable how a game can inspire people to learn more about history. I've learned far more about the WWII Atlantic Theater, since I picked up SH3, than I ever thought I would. It's led me to read books about WWII submarine warfare and even purchase some naval documentaries (Victory At Sea is the best, IMHO). Although I doubt we'll see school teachers endorsing commercial video games as a motivational tool for learning anytime soon. :O:

[CWorth]

I do apologize if my original post did come across as rude.Really was not intended as such.Damn lack of any actual way to make your intent known through typing and words only.
I saw your original post to be a bit rude myslef and unhelpful due to the instant mod it yourself comment without first knowing what may be causing the trouble.I have little patience for that due to other forums I frequent where that is the answer to everything no matter what the problem is...You have a problem fix it yourself and leave us alone tyoe attitudes when you ask for help.For that I do apologize.

As for the destroyer vs carrier thing..

I would guess that it would have been rare since most carrier battles were in the pacific and those were mostly carrier vs carrier at long range fight.I may be wrong but I dont recall any fights where destroyers got into firing or attack range of a carrier during the war.

Would be an interesting study to see how much damage a destroyer could do to a carrier and how long it would take to sink it.

I would guess it would take a long time to whittle away at a carrier given how much punishment they did take from aircraft bombs and torpedoes duringthe war and continued to remain afloat.Just look at Enterprise and the poundingthat ship took during the war.Only to come back again and again.

[roadhogg]

Come on guys, have a kit kat :D

There are a few here i've noticed that get off their trolley and take things too seriously. Lets not fall in to that trap.

I have to say CWorth that your original post did look a little dismissive of GP, but i didn't think you intended it the way it came out in writing.

It is, as you say, sometimes difficult to express your intention accurately in writing, so where theres any ambiguity in the intent of a comment people can easily mis-enterpret it.
Certainly wouldn't be the first time lol.

I could take as a case in point onelifecrisis's comment about destroyers
" the clue is in the name :03:" . . . but i prefer to think he was pulling my leg and i'll continue to do that unless he makes his intention clear.

I spoke to one fella in the past who tried to slight me because i dared to question his opinion about what can be discerned of ship types through sonar, but it just told me that the guy and his opinions weren't worth my time. And neither were his mods, as i found recently when i tried one :DL.

But lets put it in perspective. It's a game, a forum for a game, and people will have different ideas and opinions, based on greatly differing degrees of knowledge.

Everyone that uses this forum should respect that, otherwise they're not fit to contribute to it. Nuff said :up:

Anyway . . . Graf it's a stock GWX ship that hasn't been modified, the German Hipper/Prince Eugen type heavy cruiser. I thought it was all the German heavy cruisers, but after more testing the Admiral Scheer/ Lutzow type seems to be ok.
I have no mods that would affect that type of ship, so i think it's an error in the armour level for the engine area on that type of ship.
Because it's a German ship, and most ppl spend all their time shooting at British ships, rarely ever seeing a German ship, i suspect it's slipped through the bug net.
It's an error that only a ship model maker would be able to identify and adjust. Making these ships appear, look and behave correctly in the game is no easy task. Playing with the settings without knowing what i'm altering is just plain stupid lol.
Regarding SH3 being a catalyst for historical interest . . . me too m8 :)

As for destroyers versus A/C's, all we un-knowledgable can do is guess.

For my money, with superior armour, attack resistance and weaponry to a destroyer, i'd guess the A/C would make short work of sinking it.
The biggest threat would probably be the destroyers ability to launch torpedoes, but with at least twice the number of guns to dodge it would be sunk before it ever got close enough to launch one that had a hope of hitting the carrier.

Maybe someone will know of an historical encounter and can tell us the outcome?

[roadhogg]

Just a thought . . maybe at night, in the right weather conditions, before radar was used on ships, a destroyer could sneak up close enough to hit it with torpedoes. Like a sub on a surface night attack.

[Madox58]

The Prince Eugine uses the wrong Engineroom zone.
It's useing a Merchant zone.

zone type 157

[NEngineRoom]
Category=Engines Room
Multiplier=3.0
Flotability=1.000000
HitPoints=100
Destructible=No
Armor Level=14
Critic Flotation=0.3
Critical=No
;Critical Chance=0.05
FloodingTime=600
CargoType=None
Crash Depth=19

It should be changed to
zone type 162

[NEEngineRoom]
Category=Engines Room
Multiplier=4.0
Flotability=1.0
HitPoints=50
Destructible=No
Armor Level=-1
Critic Flotation=0.3
Critical=Yes
Critical Chance=0.05
FloodingTime=165
CargoType=None
Crash Depth=300

[onelifecrisis]

I could take as a case in point onelifecrisis's comment about destroyers
" the clue is in the name :03:" . . . but i prefer to think he was pulling my leg and i'll continue to do that unless he makes his intention clear.

I was poking fun at my own ignorance more than anything... thought I made that clear :hmmm: but I guess it just goes to show you can't be too careful!

Back on topic, I'm fascinated by the various accounts of the toughness of aircraft carriers... quite amazing really! :o Given what's been said, it does sound like one DD alone would have quite a task on it's hands.

[Graf Paper]

Thank you, CWorth. Text on a screen sometimes has severe limitations. :roll:

I'm just glad we're able to work past these limitations when we keep an open mind and heart. :DL

I always try to encourage players to take control and get their hands dirty by learning a little of how the game works. You never know who might turn into the next great modder around here, with the right support and encouragement.

On the other hand, I commend your diligence in guiding players through the shoals of insincere and empty replies, CWorth. :up:

Looks like privateer has indeed confirmed roadhogg's observations. A mod as huge in scope as GWX will inevitably have a few items to slip past notice. A merchie's engine room in a warship? A few good hits from a u-boat flak gun could punch holes in one of those! Does this problem also afflict the other cruisers mentioned in the first post? Good work in catching this one, roadhogg and privateer! :DL

I think one of the big reasons for U.S. carriers being so durable was the inclusion of an armored flight deck that nearly matched a battleship's armor belt. There's steel under them thar' wood planks!

[Madox58]

It took me a while to get time to look at the files.
I'm a bit busy on new 3D stuff.
;)
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/New_Turret.jpg

[CWorth]

Well I found this info for the Graf Zeppelin..

Type: aircraft carrier
Displacement, standard: 19,250 tons
Displacement, full load: 28,100 tons
Length, overall: 246.96m
Beam: 26.97m
Draught (mean): 5.59m
Flight deck: 240.75 x 26.97m
Complement: 1,760 + air crew
Machinery speed: steam geared turbines 200,000shp (149,260kw) to four shafts
Speed: 32 knots
Class: Graf Zeppelin (1936), Peter Strasser (1936)
Armament: sixteen 5.9-inch (4x2, 8x1), twelve 4.1-inch anti-aircraft, twenty-two 37mm anti-aircraft, twenty-eight 20mm aircraft
Armor: belt: up to 9cm, deck : up to 3.8cm, flight deck: up to 1.9cm, casemates for 5.9-inch guns. Initial design did not include bulges. But when construction was revised in 1942, she was equipped with bulges at Kiel during winter 1942-43. The bulges proved their effectiveness when she received her first torpedo hit during the tests by the Soviets. The bulges were completely destroyed, but the armor belt remained intact. Sides appear to be armored for two-thirds of length amidships, and to a lesser extent as far as bow, which is of bulbous form. Will have island superstructure on starboard side
Aircraft: 40: 18 Ju 87C (http://home.inreach.com/rickylaw/luftwaffe/carrier/ju87c/ju87c.html), 22 sea-version Me 109T (http://home.inreach.com/rickylaw/luftwaffe/carrier/me109t/me109t.html)


The bolded underlined part also stood out a bit considering a destroyer would have used torpedoes as well as gunfire to take her down.

So just looking at the above info if indeed correct I would say she would have put up a pretty good fight against a destroyer and probably survive it.Just the sixteen 5.9-inch (4x2, 8x1) alone probably could have done some pretty good damage against a destroyer.Then add in aircraft that would surely be up and you have a pretty good fight on your hands.

Now compared to a say Fletcher Class destroyer..

Displacement: 2,325 tons (2,924 tons Full load)
Length: 376 feet 5 inches
Beam: 39 feet 7 inches
Draught: 13 feet 9 inches
Machinery: four Babcock & Wilcox boilers 2-shaft G.E.C. geared turbines
Performance: 60,000 shp for 38 knots
Bunkerage: 492 tons
Range: 6,500 nautical miles at 15 knots
Guns: five 5 inch; four 1.1 inch; four 20 mm
Torpedoes: ten 21 inch

[roadhogg]

Nice one privateer :up:

Thankyou.

No probs here onelife :DL, i had no intention of chewing on that comment, just using it as a case in point of "interpretation" possibilities, in view of CWorth and GP's brief misunderstanding.

Graf i thought it also afflicted the Lutzow class heavies, but after some testing they don't seem so fragile.
I'll check through the zone specs anyway to see if i can see anything that looks wrong, bearing in mind i don't have the foggiest about zone specs :D

Privateer has kindly provided references for comparison tho.

CWorth, some of the Battleships have the bulges, like the Revenge class, i figured they were probably full of water. The bulge casing triggers torpedo detonation, but the water jacket inside absorbs much of the explosion, minimising damage to the hull behind the jacket.
No doubt someone will put me right if it's not water inside them, but i always try to aim fore, aft or underneath them when BB hunting.

My totally unsubstantiated guess is that 9cm ( or 3 and a half inches) of armour plate would take almost all the impact of a 5" shell, so a DD would have trouble even piercing the hull. The only chance it would have is dozens of hits just below the waterline fore or aft of the bulges. Difficult to achieve considering the A/C would be firing back with twice the firepower. Plus the DD would be dodging aircraft attack.
Of course in the game, you don't get aircraft attacks straight away normally, so the two slug it out with gunfire, but i still think the Graf Zep and Illustrious, and probably Essex are too fragile.

Having said that, i just watched the Scharnhorst and Admiral Scheer spend 20 minutes trying to sink VonDos's Glorious and 2 London class heavies in a running battle.
The Scharnhorst and Scheer sank so much lead into the Glorious you couldn't see what colour paint was on it anywhere anymore, it was just a mass of shell scars and holes, while the 2 London's were firing at them virtually unanswered.
By the time they sunk it, the Scheer had been sunk by the London's and the Scharnhorst looked as bad as the Glorious lol.
Wicked :DL
Maybe VonDos has overdone the resilience just a tad :03: but it sure made things interesting.

[roadhogg]

Privateer . . . ( grovel . .grovel :DL ) i know you're busy working on new 3D stuff ( for SH3 by any chance? ) but i could do with a little more guidance cos i know diddly squat about ship modelling, and zone control.

In the .zon for the Prince Eugen, section 63, the property tree contains 48 boxes. Box 0, 1, and 38 are of type 157.

Do i alter all 3 zone types?
and what parameters exactly, is each box responsible for?
And is the same section (63) and boxes responsible for the engine parameters on each ship?

I need to know these things in order to know what i'm checking the settings for on the other cruisers.

Sorry to be a nuisance :oops:

[Madox58]

No problem roadhogg.
:)

Change all 3 of the 157's
There are 3 props,
Thus,
3 Enginerooms!

You change ONLY the 157 setting.
The others are the size and placement of the 'Boxes', etc.

And Yes,
I'm working on a Ship for SH3 and SH4.
None of the existing Gun Models does justice to the Ship.
So I build a new one.

[roadhogg]

Thanks privateer :)

It doesn't give any indication what the zone type or box number is for, so without knowledgable advice i'd have no clue what i was messing with.

I was also worried because i would have expected the boxes controlling a given area to be consecutive . . . so 0,1 and 2, instead of 0,1 and 38.

Is there any way of telling what each box or sphere is for, like a zone and sphere index maybe?

Different ships have different numbers of sections . . . ie the P Eugen has 66 or so sections in it's .zon but the Devonshire only has about 58 i think.

Therefore without some kind of key, or index guide, it's impossible for me to check the engine room settings on any other kind of ship, cos it doesn't indicate what that section is for.

I just figured while i was checking the P Eugen type, i could check the Lutzow type and some others to make sure they were set correctly, and check them against other ships for comparison.

I hate to bother people like yourself and VonDos, who work hard for the SH3 community and almost always have projects in progress, but as you'll know, giving something an inappropriate value or changing the wrong area of a ships configuration, results in abnormal behaviour of the ship, or CTD 's.
Some of the sections in the some of the files ( .dsd, .sim, .dat and .val) indicate what they're for, but the .zon is a bit of a mystery indication wise, so knowing what i'm playing with is difficult.
Thanks again for the info you've already provided.

Good luck with your new ship and guns.

I look forward to it's release.

[roadhogg]

Scratch the last post privateer. I was looking for area 5 according to the index in the zones.cfg, but i've sussed that's the u-boat engine room.

I should have taken more notice further down the index list to numbers 157 and 162.
Sowwy :oops:
:DL

I should be able to track what i'm playing with now.

I was trying to understand each section cos i have a sneaky desire to toughen up the Carriers ;)

The error affects all the German heavies.
Graf Spee, Scheer, Duetschland, Blutcher, Lutzow, Hipper, P Eugen.
The k class light has the BBEngineroom lol.
I might leave that one :)