[WIP] Longer wake.

[Vikinger]

EDIT/ This Project Is Terminated


Hi Folks.

Ive seen in various threads that people want a longer wake mod so i started to look at the files and found out its possible to do.

However it will take quite some time to do cuz i have to go through every ship to test and tweak, test and tweak :)

I wanted longer wake for my self and i was not satisfied how they looked ingame, they where short and to much "milk" in them.

But i didnt want them to long either cuz that wud be a real performance hit.
So far i think i can make the wakes to be about 4-6 times longer than stock and also more transparent so the "milk" effect is reduced.

But every wake will be tested so they fit each ship.

The mod will be based on the ships that comes whit TMO and RSRDC and will be compatible cuz there is only one file that i need to change and that file only affect the wake and nuthing els.

It will be JSGME compatible also.

A small screen teaser for you :)


Here is stock wake for a AUXsubchaser.
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2111/shortwake1.jpg


Here is the modded version:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9812/longwake2.jpg


And here is another view from an destroyer.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4282/longwake1.jpg


From the last picture you can se the bow wake and the prop wake. I will try to make them more transparent also so they fit into the rest of the wake. But for that i must ask for permission to use thos files cuz they are made from some other excellent modders.
But more on that later :)


Vikinger.

ps: I estimate the time to finish this of to about a week since there are so many files to go thorugh.

[Te Kaha]

Looks very nice to me! :up:

Hint: Never announce a time frame for finishing any work, 1st because you'll never know, and 2nd you'll get repeated questions why it ain't released yet.

[Vikinger]

Haha your right but i want to finish this of as soon as possible.

So let say 1 week to 10 year :har:

[NEON DEON]

Haha your right but i want to finish this of as soon as possible.

So let say 1 week to 10 year :har:

That nails it down!:D

[neosnk35]

taht is nice.. one thing will it be compatible with those environmental mods..

tsk tsk.. i hate to be a non-modder...

[Vikinger]

Yeah it will be fully compatible whit the Envirovment mods.

It is only 1 file i need to change in every ship/sub folder and that is the .val file and that file Only handle the wake. So it will not affect anything els.

Another teaser whit a fishingboat.
Quite transparent wake cuz after all its a sailingboat :)

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5811/fishwake.jpg

[kriller2]

Nice work Viking :yeah:

[Vikinger]

Iam still working on this but have ran into tons of problems.:damn:

Its so many variables to take in account so it will look descent and so far i think i have re-done 50 entries/ships.

And today i encounterd another problem. I had completely forgot how it looks when a ship do a narrow turn but i figured that out on a mission.
And the wake was completely wrong.

So after 3 hours of testing and changing just for one type of ship i came up whit this result.

Now i need to go through every ship there is and test them on real patrol.
So it wll take some time before i manage to do all 150 entries :D Fortunatly i have many save games whit different ships so i hope i can do this in descent time frame. But forget that week i was talking about before LoL. :rotfl:

Here is the latest changes to a destroyer/coastal patrolboat. A class A/B.


The 3 first images are rezised to 50%

Full turn at max rudder.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3784/wake1.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9467/wake2.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6383/wake3.jpg


Closer look at front wake. note that there is a wake that is a little wider than normal from the bow wake.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8261/wake4.jpg



And just a nice picture :)

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1886/sunsetqxt.jpg

[602Sqn_Puff]

Now that set of screenies is just jaw dropping!!! Keep up the good work :)

[Soundman]

Looks very nice....Maybe you could start with just doing the subs (ownship) first?

[Sailor Steve]

Nice work on the wakes. Of course it shows the game limitation of the way wakes really work. The foamy part doesn't last very long in real life, but there is a non-foamy 'disturbing' of the water that can extend for miles behind the ship if it's going fast enough. This part is never portrayed in games, and probably for good reason.

Still, it would be nice...

Looking good though!:sunny:

[SilentAngel]

looks awesome:o

[AVGWarhawk]

Nice work on the wakes. Of course it shows the game limitation of the way wakes really work. The foamy part doesn't last very long in real life, but there is a non-foamy 'disturbing' of the water that can extend for miles behind the ship if it's going fast enough. This part is never portrayed in games, and probably for good reason.

Still, it would be nice...

Looking good though!:sunny:

Perhaps look at the file that makes the 3D wake instead of the file that makes the foam? :hmmm:

[Vikinger]

Yeah. The wake is very limited even thou there is many variables to adjust.

I didnt either like the "milky" wakes. Its more like a plane that draws thier stripes on the sky than a ship wake.

I tryed to adjust this part a bit by changing the opacity and it looked good at full speed. But the game change the opacity at different speed so a fast ship that goes half speed will hardley not generate any visible wake at all. I wish i could adjust the opacity at different speed but i have not found the file that handle that.

The ships comes whit 1 wake for small ships. 2 wakes for medium ships and 3 wakes for larger ships and they all have thier own characteristics. When there are more than 1 wake they must be in "harmony". Therefor there is testing on every ship cuz the ships lenght affect how it shows up.

Right now iam trying to adjust thos 50 ships ive allready done cuz there was a value called fixed length that made the wakes to look stupid when they made a turn.
if i stretched out the second wake that starts at the middle of the ship (that has 3 wakes) to last for about 50 meters and the fixed lenght was set to 25. The wake started to "bend" first after that 25 meters. And i wanted it to start to bend as soon the wake leave the stern. So for that i need to take in account how long the ship is and how width the ship is and where the wake starts.

Iam also adjusting the start widht of the wakes and the angle they spread and some other values as well :D

And too long wakes looks just silly but overall the wakes will be from 70 to 200 meters in lenght dependant on the ship type. And that means about 5-10 times longer wake than stock.


I hope i soon can find some values that iam staisfied whit that i can use for more than just a single ship. Like same wake for the destroyers. its darn time consuming to do each ship and iam not sure if its really worth the effort.

I starting to run out of time also cuz i have a movement to a new appartment coming up in begining of May. Need to take care of that also.

But i hope i dont need to postphone this.

And perhaps i release the wakes for the subs first like Soundman suggested. :)

[Vikinger]

Found some cool picture that show the foam from a boat.

Note that most of the foam is on the side of the boat and not just behind it.
I think this can be done by changing the wake_front and wake_back.tga file that handle the wake apperance.

http://www.steelnavy.com/images/Simon1200/Figure%205.jpg

And also some good reading on the site also.

http://www.steelnavy.com/WavePatterns.htm

[Hmuda]

Looks like I chose a good time to come back. Something to look forward to. Keep up the good work Vikinger, looks awesome. :)

[Webster]

well dont forget thats a newer high speed ship so maybe the game shouldnt be as white maybe, but the size and shape will give you a great guide to match

[Vikinger]

Yeah you are right webster, That ships on the picture goes at full speed 30+ knots.
There is other smaller pictures on the site that more reflect normal speed and thos wakes is not so dramaticly :)

I looked into the front and back.tga files a bit and i found out that iam not gona redo any of thos. The modders that have done thos have made a good work and i cant do it much better. :up:

So its just for me to change a bunch of values :) Hopefully i can make it so it looks descent.

[Webster]

Yeah you are right webster, That ships on the picture goes at full speed 30+ knots.
There is other smaller pictures on the site that more reflect normal speed and thos wakes is not so dramaticly :)

I looked into the front and back.tga files a bit and i found out that iam not gona redo any of thos. The modders that have done thos have made a good work and i cant do it much better. :up:

So its just for me to change a bunch of values :) Hopefully i can make it so it looks descent.


well it depends om proportion too, a battleship wont be that fast but the water it churns probably would look like that picture but without the capping on the wave.

the bigger the beam the more foam you get but i dont think you can do differently just one class of ship, arent you dealing with all at the same time?

[Vikinger]

Well so far i have been working on the navy ships.

Battle ships, heavy crusier, light cruiser, Carriers, escort carriers, auxil ships and some other smaller ships.

Thos larger ships differs so much in both lenght and in width so i have to go through them all. but il guess thos ships are the ones that takes most of the time.

Iam soon rdy to start to do the destroyers. The last navy ships and many of them have same characteristics so i can hopefully use same values.

Then there is the merchant ships left. But that wont take so long either cuz there is just small, medium or large, and the tankers.

Ohh and the subs :)

Since iam using TMO+ RSRDC so will only thos ships be affected that i have from thos mods. But its about 150 entries. Many other mods use same ships anyway.
I have not yet decided if iam gona do the sub for Opmonsun.

Only file i change is the .val file and i will not send away all ships files there is. Only the file iam changing, mostley so it wont be so large file. And there is no point to send a full ship folder that is not on the roster anyway. it simply wont show up in the game :)

That means it will be compatible for any mods that use thos ships and even stock. And thos that dont have them wont be affected at all even if the mod will create a ship folder whit the .val file.

[Webster]

wow, so you have to do each ship :nope: join the club brother :har:

i had the same fun with my manuvering fix. which by the way you might want to test the effect it has on them but i dont expect it to effect what your doing it only changes acceleration not speeds but it could become the next must have mod.


well val files are only 1k or 2 so it will never be a big file lol the folder is bigger than the file

what you can do is make a stock version that includes the rsrdc ships because most people use it, then do a rfb patch to add the ones missing and do the same for tmo and fotrs

that way as new ships are added you can just slip them in whatever patch it goes in or just call it the new ships patch and update it now and then

[Vikinger]

Yeah that is what i have for plans. try to release this whit the ships i have first and then do a patch so it is compatible whit any mods.

Here is an explaination on the variables iam working on and the complexitiy in it, as far as i have got it :)

I provide a little drawing also ( Dont say anything about my drawing skills) :har:

Stern ship wake.
All values are in metric and All 3 wakes have this values to play around whit. So i just explain the stern one in detail.


StartOffset=0.0 This value start the wake from the stern starting point. Higher value means it will start closer to the bow. a negative value , it will start after the stern.
I had to high value here cuz its linked to the Fixed lenght. If i set high value here and low value on fixed lenght the wake starts to bend to early under the ship and it look horrible.

Lenght= 200.0 The lenght of the wake. To long wake will make the angle after the stern to be real narrow and that looks bad. it can somehow be adjusted by changing the fronthwidth and aperture angle.

Fixedlenght= 2.0 The wake will start to bend after this value In metric. To high value it means the wake will be straight untill it starts to bend when you do a turn after this lenght.

Frontwidth= 8.0 is the width of the wake at the starting point. This is something i change for every ship to match thier width. And also to adjust the angle to match the length of the wake.

ApertureAngle=6.0 The value in degrees that adjust how wide the wake will be. works toghter whit frontwidth.

Maxopacity=15 High values means the wake become more transparent. Side effect is that to high value the wake become invisible at medium speed for fast ships. But i still experiment a bit whit this cuz all 3 wakes ( or 2 ) overlap each other a bit and to reduce the milky effect i can adjust this for each wake
When a wake overlap they enhance each other and i want to reduce that.

Middle wake, if the ship has one, or if its a ship whit only stern and front wake then i adjust the front wake so it also looks like the middle wake.
But most important thing here is to stretch out the wake in lenght so it fill the gap from the arrow in the aperture angle from the stern wake. se the red lines. And also to adjust the frontwidth so the wake is visible a bit on the side of the ship. So it looks like they are one wake in width.

I had also to high value here for the fixed lenght. I had to adjust that so the wake started to bend at the stern wakes starting point.

And i dont change much in the Geometryshipwake. just the aperture angle for some larger ships. And the lenght so it match the lenght of the stern wake.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/6553/drawingfgg.jpg


So every values must be adjusted so it fits the different ships in lenght and widht if i want the wakes to show up as i want them :)
And biggest problem iam facing atm is to adjust the fixed length for each ship so the front and middle wake starts to bend at stern wakes starting point when a ship do a turn. And for that i really must se the ship ingame when they turn.

I was lucky today on a patrol that i came up whit an US taskforce whit most larger ships in just when they made a turn so i have that saving point as reference :)

Gona look into some single missions also and se if they are to any use for me.


Vikinger.

[Webster]

midway mission is perfect, large tast force followed by a couple of battleships and escorts

you'll have most of the jap fleet right there and US air raids makes them do evasive manuvers for you

[LukeFF]

well dont forget thats a newer high speed ship so maybe the game shouldnt be as white maybe, but the size and shape will give you a great guide to match

The basic shape of warships that size hasn't really changed all that much in the past 50+ years. :roll: Not to mention just about ALL DDs of WWII vintage did 30 knots or more.

[JREX53]

wow, so you have to do each ship :nope: join the club brother :har:

i had the same fun with my manuvering fix. which by the way you might want to test the effect it has on them but i dont expect it to effect what your doing it only changes acceleration not speeds but it could become the next must have mod.



Don't count on it.

[Webster]

Don't count on it.


and you really felt that comment was necessary....:nope:

[Vikinger]

midway mission is perfect, large tast force followed by a couple of battleships and escorts

you'll have most of the jap fleet right there and US air raids makes them do evasive manuvers for you

Ahh gona fire up that mission later when ive got some sleep :)

5 AM now, darn the time just fly by :timeout: :D

[Vikinger]

I found a better solution than wait for "right" moment in saved games or single missions to test the ships out. I simply make a "mini" single mission whit the mission editor and by that i can work whit 3-5 ships at same time and that speed up the time when i can finish this of.

Its quite fun to do own single missions and when iam done whit this wake project i think iam gona do some missions.

Iam thinking of doing an observation mission where you dont play any part of the naval battle. Its more to watch the scenery.
I want to try and set up an air attack followed by an surface attack and also try to make the jap planes to do kamikaze attacks on ships.

And iam gona try to use real naval battle as reference that i found on this page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_naval_battles#World_War_II_.281939-45.29


Or try to make something out of this battle where Submarines where involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Philippine_Sea

Some cool reading there.



Here is the latest picture about the wake project.

Its an Aux Cruiser at full speed that make a turn.

Note the wake that "draft" from the ship hull as the ship turn. I tryed to "simulate" the ships momentum in the wake when they do a hard turn.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2663/wakem.jpg

Vikinger.

[Webster]

looking great :up:



and a note on mission building, only the players sub will move.

its a game thing where subs added to mission sit stationary and do nothing you tell them to.

i dont believe they even shoot back at you with AA or deck guns if i remember correctly. so keep in mind any added sub is just eye candy in missions.

[Vikinger]

A little update.

Ive been working every day on this and i encounter problems every time.

However i have to take a "medium" path so i can finish this of.
There is so many variables that affect the wakes specialy on the submarines.

So far iam done whit all the ships from Stock game and TMO and that is about 125 ships that all have been tested individualy in test missions.
However some ships dont have the .val file and thos ships are linked to another ship. I have not tested thos ship that is linked and can not guaranty how they look ingame. But thos linked ships are based on the other ships hull that have a .val file so il guess you wont have any problem whit it. Iam only tweaking thos ships that have a.val file attatched.
I have the submarines left and about 40 ships from OPMonsun.

The submarines characteristics affect the wake a lot. I noticed this when i thought a had a finished wake for the S-18 sub and then used RFB subs characteristics and the wake looked different. it was not bad but it was not good.

Since iam only working on the .val file i try to make the wakes so they fit the characteristics from stock+TMO and Op Monsun. It wud take forever to change every aspect in every mod.
Things that also affect is the subs turnrate. How much wind there is. The subs draught etc.

I also found an odd behaviour from the subs. it seams when they do a full rudder turn the subs start to turn around its own center of the sub. The turn does not start at the stern. To change that charateristics its possible to change some values in the .sim file that handle the drifting but iam not going into that. As i said different Mods gives a little different Characteristics for different subs, so i had to take a middle part in this.
Iam only testing this in test missions whit windspeed 5.

And this mod will not be perfect at all. the main purpose was just to make longer wake, but of course the wake have to look descent also.

Some rescent screenshoots. All pictures are re-scaled to 60%

This is from stock+TMO

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8197/stockwake.jpg

And here is the modded wake.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5528/moddedwake.jpg


Here is a picture about that odd behaviour that a submarine start to turn around its own center rather than the stern. For a breif moment the wake look odd when a sub start a full turn in full speed. The wake bends first to right when i do a full left turn before it goes back to normal.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2551/startturn1.jpg

Here is same boat in same turn just a few sec later.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4013/startwake2.jpg

Like i said, am not gona do anything about that. Cuz it require more testing and changing in other files that i dont intend to release it wud also make the mod less compatible for other mods. For my self i can live whit that little problem in my game :)


And here is a picture i took when i made a test mission whit all the US battle ships against JAP BBships.
It was a massive battle and fun to watch :D
At the end the water was packed of lifeboats from all sinking ships :D

You can se some of the battle ships wake also from the picture.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8910/battlev.jpg


Vikinger.

[Vikinger]

Forgot this picture that shows the wake from the submarine a Balao.
The sub have done a full left to a full right turn at full speed :)

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/6866/subwake.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

Here is a picture about that odd behaviour that a submarine start to turn around its own center rather than the stern. For a breif moment the wake look odd when a sub start a full turn in full speed. The wake bends first to right when i do a full left turn before it goes back to normal.
It's not odd behaviour at all. The rudder is at the stern, and when you order left rudder it pushes the stern to the right, not the bow to the left.

[Vikinger]

It's not odd behaviour at all. The rudder is at the stern, and when you order left rudder it pushes the stern to the right, not the bow to the left.


Hmm now when you say it i must admit you have right :D its quite elementary :know:
So il guess its ok even if it looks a bit odd in the start of a turn :)
But this is only visible on the submarines, not the ships.

[Sailor Steve]

It's the same in SH3. It might have to do with the fact that a ship's rudder is almost right at the stern while the sub's is just a little forward of it.

On the other hand, I may have a hat I'm talking through.:dead:

[Regio Sommergibile]

looks great:)

[Munchausen]

:yep: Either way, it's still a major improvement over default wakes.

[Vikinger]

Hi folks.

Iam sorry to say that iam giving up on this project.

There are many reasons for it but the major reason is that is just to tedious to do.

I also found out that the characteristics for both the subs and the ships differs a lot between various major mods.

So if it looks ok in one mod it might look bad in an other.
I based this mod on TMO and when i loaded a stock game it looked real bad. And i tested it out on other mods as well and i found out that that i had just done about 20% if i want to support the major mods.

To make a mod like this i need ( or someone els) to make it seperate for each major mods there is. And that would take forever to do.
A time in my life that i dont have atm. I have also a movement coming up to a new appartment that will take all my free time.

I will instead try to concentrate to do smaller mods for the community.

Hopefully W-Clear will have something for you, later on, since he is also working on something similar.

Anyway it have been an intressting ride to figure out all the variables it is behind this and now i understand why it have never been done before :D

Iam sorry if i made anyone dissapointed.


Vikinger.

[Regio Sommergibile]

Disappointment obviously, because of such a project abandoned, but i think everybody will surely understand your reasons :up:

[NEON DEON]

Hi folks.

Iam sorry to say that iam giving up on this project.

There are many reasons for it but the major reason is that is just to tedious to do.

I also found out that the characteristics for both the subs and the ships differs a lot between various major mods.

So if it looks ok in one mod it might look bad in an other.
I based this mod on TMO and when i loaded a stock game it looked real bad. And i tested it out on other mods as well and i found out that that i had just done about 20% if i want to support the major mods.

To make a mod like this i need ( or someone els) to make it seperate for each major mods there is. And that would take forever to do.
A time in my life that i dont have atm. I have also a movement coming up to a new appartment that will take all my free time.

I will instead try to concentrate to do smaller mods for the community.

Hopefully W-Clear will have something for you, later on, since he is also working on something similar.

Anyway it have been an intressting ride to figure out all the variables it is behind this and now i understand why it have never been done before :D

Iam sorry if i made anyone dissapointed.


Vikinger.

Vikinger,

I was wondering if you could do a one ship mod so I could see how you did it?

Thanks,

Neon

[Vikinger]

Il send you an pm Neon :)

[Hmuda]

Too bad, but completely understandable.

I hope that the makers of the big-mods saw your effort and hopefully they'll make somethign similar for their works. It's easier if they don't have to worry about other mods.

[Vikinger]

It is indeed. Its in moments like this i wish the game didnt have so many mods hehe.

Its nearly impossible to make 1 mod that fits them all. Instead we need to do severly different versions. And for a mod like this one i was working on it wud take months to complete.
And i really wanted it to be compatible whit the largest mods.

However i maybe will release a version that is for TMO for thos that have that mod as a base mod. After all its nearly completed for that mod. All ships are done and i had just started to work on the submarines and its better than nothing :)

Or perhaps i can skip to do the submarines since w-clear also is working on it. No point that 2 modders work on same project.

Ahh well, gona take a break from it for some days and we will se what happends next :)

Vikinger.

[gimpy117]

thanks for giving it a go! :up:

I bet somebody will build upon this and find a way