GWX3 Stadiometer markings wrong.

[Neutrino]

The stadiometer markings on the periscope are seem very wrong to me. When taking a range reading the notepad reads 0.7 while the periscope reads 0.5! But the notepad only gives you a single digit of accuracy which is utterly insufficient for an accurate reading.

You can pause the game and find out at which points the one digit value in the notepad changes and interpolate between those values to get something more usable. But this requires correlating the points at which the notepad value flips over to features in the periscope and then counting the pixels : /

Wouldn't it be better to just fix the periscope stadiometer graphic, then we wouldn't have to use the notepad at all?

[makman94]

The stadiometer markings on the periscope are seem very wrong to me. When taking a range reading the notepad reads 0.7 while the periscope reads 0.5! But the notepad only gives you a single digit of accuracy which is utterly insufficient for an accurate reading.

You can pause the game and find out at which points the one digit value in the notepad changes and interpolate between those values to get something more usable. But this requires correlating the points at which the notepad value flips over to features in the periscope and then counting the pixels : /

Wouldn't it be better to just fix the periscope stadiometer graphic, then we wouldn't have to use the notepad at all?

hello Neutrino,

check my stadimeter here: [RELl]New optics+stadimeter for olc gui 127,NEW VERSION 2 IS OUT (27/11/08) (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=144743)

but i have made it for use with olc gui 127.so first install olc gui 127 and then my mod.

you are right with the mast's heights.i don't know how they have figure out their values but i can tell you that are not ok for some ships (not all of them)but i never write down the 'problematic' ships .the mast heights need fixes but this means a huuuuge work.
i had in my mind to make a mod that you will have to measure the funnel's height and not the mast's height but i left it becuase need a lot of work(you see ,a lot of ...ships) .so i have fixed 3-4 for use them in my single missions as i don't care about the career campaigns at all.

try the mod and feel free to say your opinion

bye

[Neutrino]

Thanks Makman. I've installed OLC and the x6 magnification mod you linked. I haven't used the OLC mod before so I'm not completely clear what additional functionality the stadimeter mod provides. I think it adds a stock SH3 notepad style stadimeter and modified periscope ranging rings tweaked to use doubled mast heights, is that right?

That's very nice but the notepad is still only showing 1 decimal place of accuracy in the stadimeter angle readout which is not good enough for long range shots. I can see that the notepad uses a more precise calculation in the background that in theory enables you to get the required accuracy, but the notebook uses mast height values from the ship recognition manual some of which I suspect are wrong. What's really bugging me though is that on the periscope while the stadimeter is activated the only vertical scale appears to bear no relation whatsoever to the angle measured to one decimal place by the stadimeter notebook.

http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stadi.jpg

If the stadimeter could be made to provide a more accurate angle readout (either on the notebook by an extra decimal place, or via adjusted periscope markings) then I don't think it's actually all that much work to fix the mast heights. The only posts I've read here that have considered that issue seem to have assumed that the fix would consist of exporting the models and loading them into a CAD package, measuring them and resizing the masts, which would of course be a total ball ache.

But wouldn't a far simpler fix be this? Improve the stadimeter to provide an accurate angle measurement. Load the game with the chart in God mode and then you can measure the exact range to a target on the chart and use the stadimeter formula 'range = mast_height / sin(theta)' in reverse, and use the known range to calculate the actual correct mast height. I believe it is then a relatively simple matter to update the config files for the ship recognition manual with the corrected mast heights.

It may not be the historically accurate approach, but an accurate range determination is so critical to the game that for me a little historical inaccuracy about the actual mast heights would definately be a price worth paying.

I can think of another way to do it too by calculating the amount of error in a range measurement and working back from that to the mast height error. But I only installed SH3 a few days ago and so far I've only run couple of missions. It did seem to me though as if I was repeatedly taking good measurements that were consistantly out by a fixed amount, and a more accurate readout of the raw stadimeter theta angle would really help narrow down the cause.

[makman94]

Thanks Makman. I've installed OLC and the x6 magnification mod you linked. I haven't used the OLC mod before so I'm not completely clear what additional functionality the stadimeter mod provides. I think it adds a stock SH3 notepad style stadimeter and modified periscope ranging rings tweaked to use doubled mast heights, is that right?--no.my mod adds the stadimeter in olc gui.be careful,reinstall the olc gui and DON'T run the double mast .exebecuase ,as i saw from your picture , you have run it.mast height for the tramp streamer must be 23.2 and not 46

That's very nice but the notepad is still only showing 1 decimal place of accuracy in the stadimeter angle readout which is not good enough for long range shots. I can see that the notepad uses a more precise calculation in the background that in theory enables you to get the required accuracy, but the notebook uses mast height values from the ship recognition manual some of which I suspect are wrong. What's really bugging me though is that on the periscope while the stadimeter is activated the only vertical scale appears to bear no relation whatsoever to the angle measured to one decimal place by the stadimeter notebook.

http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stadi.jpg -this is happening becuase you are at x6 zoom level.its absolutely normal. when degrees at x6 zoom are 6.4 then at x1.5 zoom would be 6.4/4=1.6 which is the reading on your notepad. why to devide with 4? becuase 1.5(zoom) x 4 = 6(zoom).

If the stadimeter could be made to provide a more accurate angle readout (either on the notebook by an extra decimal place, or via adjusted periscope markings) then I don't think it's actually all that much work to fix the mast heights. The only posts I've read here that have considered that issue seem to have assumed that the fix would consist of exporting the models and loading them into a CAD package, measuring them and resizing the masts, which would of course be a total ball ache.

But wouldn't a far simpler fix be this? Improve the stadimeter to provide an accurate angle measurement. Load the game with the chart in God mode and then you can measure the exact range to a target on the chart and use the stadimeter formula 'range = mast_height / sin(theta)' in reverse, and use the known range to calculate the actual correct mast height. I believe it is then a relatively simple matter to update the config files for the ship recognition manual with the corrected mast heights.

It may not be the historically accurate approach, but an accurate range determination is so critical to the game that for me a little historical inaccuracy about the actual mast heights would definately be a price worth paying.

I can think of another way to do it too by calculating the amount of error in a range measurement and working back from that to the mast height error. But I only installed SH3 a few days ago and so far I've only run couple of missions. It did seem to me though as if I was repeatedly taking good measurements that were consistantly out by a fixed amount, and a more accurate readout of the raw stadimeter theta angle would really help narrow down the cause.
so,your range readings where messed becuase you had run the double mast tool .exe (sorry,i must have warned you about this) .reinstall olc gui 127 ,then my mod and see what you get.

ps1: if you want to see how it works but with FUNNELS HEIGHTS ,i upload today a jsgme ready file witch contains the values for the funnels of the ships that are showed in torpedo training.run this last in your mod list.then enter the torpedo training (ONLY) and do your measurments but looking at the FUNNELS,not masts.don't bother with the rec manual(it will still say mast but ,in fact is funnel)

ps2: also get the RULER mod by Moose Malloy.it is a 'must have' tool for acurate ranges.

edit: oh, and the type is tan(θ)=mast/range ( tan(θ) ...not sin(θ) )

try it,

bye

[Neutrino]

My last post was not well written I was in a rush so I inadvertantly misled you there a bit.

I'd knew that I still had the DoubleHeightMasts mod on and had worked out that it needed to be removed for the stadimeter to give the correct range. The issue I had with some ranges being out was with stock SH3 where the stadimeter on some ships gave a consistantly 15-20% wrong reading. The other issue I had was that I couldn't relate the vertical marks on the periscope to the angle given by the notebook.

You said: 'when degrees at x6 zoom are 6.4 then at x1.5 zoom would be 6.4/4=1.6 which is the reading on your notepad.' I had to think a bit before I started to understand what you meant here but I think I have it now. I think you're saying that the marks on the left of the periscope are true for the lowest magnification which is 1.5x, therefore readings against that need to be divided by (current magnification / 1.5), which makes sense.

I hadn't realised the lowest zoom setting was 1.5x instead of 1x so I was seeing no relation there at all, plus I hadn't actually noticed that I have 3 magnification levels on the periscope, not sure if that's stock or has been added by one of the mods I have running. On my highest magnification 7 vertical marks gives me a reading of 0.7 on the notebook, so am I right in thinking that means my highest magnification is 15x ?

If my understanding of this is correct I shall go away and do some more testing to see if I can identify a consistant error with some of the ships I'm having problems with. I'd like to try that ruler mod you mentioned. But I've searched the forum and Google and so far no joy, the closest I've found is a dead link here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=258604&postcount=100

Do you have any idea where I could get this from please?

You are of course right about the range formula too. I got that out of the SH3 manual and never thought to check it. Doesn't make any difference at long range though which is why I'm still not sure all the mast heights in the recognition manual are correct.

And many thanks for all your help.

[makman94]

My last post was not well written I was in a rush so I inadvertantly misled you there a bit.

I'd knew that I still had the DoubleHeightMasts mod on and had worked out that it needed to be removed for the stadimeter to give the correct range. The issue I had with some ranges being out was with stock SH3 where the stadimeter on some ships gave a consistantly 15-20% wrong reading. The other issue I had was that I couldn't relate the vertical marks on the periscope to the angle given by the notebook.

You said: 'when degrees at x6 zoom are 6.4 then at x1.5 zoom would be 6.4/4=1.6 which is the reading on your notepad.' I had to think a bit before I started to understand what you meant here but I think I have it now. I think you're saying that the marks on the left of the periscope are true for the lowest magnification which is 1.5x, therefore readings against that need to be divided by (current magnification / 1.5), which makes sense.

I hadn't realised the lowest zoom setting was 1.5x instead of 1x so I was seeing no relation there at all, plus I hadn't actually noticed that I have 3 magnification levels on the periscope, not sure if that's stock or has been added by one of the mods I have running. On my highest magnification 7 vertical marks gives me a reading of 0.7 on the notebook, so am I right in thinking that means my highest magnification is 15x ?--yes,now you are absolutely correct.my mod is adding the third zoom level(x15). your zoom levels are x1.5 , x6 and x15 .

If my understanding of this is correct I shall go away and do some more testing to see if I can identify a consistant error with some of the ships I'm having problems with. I'd like to try that ruler mod you mentioned. But I've searched the forum and Google and so far no joy, the closest I've found is a dead link here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=258604&postcount=100

Do you have any idea where I could get this from please?--here you are : http://hosted.filefront.com/makman94/ (http://hosted.filefront.com/makman94/). --i have uploaded it for you and for everyone who is interested.

You are of course right about the range formula too. I got that out of the SH3 manual and never thought to check it. Doesn't make any difference at long range though which is why I'm still not sure all the mast heights in the recognition manual are correct.--in fact a better formula is : θ/2=arctan[mast/(2xrange)] <=> tan(θ/2)=mast/(2xrange) but is very complicated to explain why is better.

And many thanks for all your help.
i am accuracy fan ,too :up:

[Pisces]

Thanks Makman. I've installed OLC and the x6 magnification mod you linked. I haven't used the OLC mod before so I'm not completely clear what additional functionality the stadimeter mod provides. I think it adds a stock SH3 notepad style stadimeter and modified periscope ranging rings tweaked to use doubled mast heights, is that right?Just to explain the OLC (and U-jagd mod by joegrundman) functionality better, it ALSO measures AOB using the same tool, in a historical and technological accurate way, as opposed to the stock periscope notepad-way. I don't know if or how makman modified this procedure but he (OLC) made some videos explaining the procedure. I'm uploading them at the moment (takes about an hour) to my filefront page to mirror. But they are also at:

http://hosted.filefront.com/UberTorpedo/2352577

and

http://hosted.filefront.com/LaufenZumZiel/2380141

[makman94]

Just to explain the OLC (and U-jagd mod by joegrundman) functionality better, it ALSO measures AOB using the same tool, in a historical and technological accurate way, as opposed to the stock periscope notepad-way. I don't know if or how makman modified this procedure but he (OLC) made some videos explaining the procedure.

hello Pisces,

first of all ,i have to say that i didn't 'touch ' the olc gui procedure at all ! just a small correction:there is not notepad in olc gui.

my mod adds the stadimeter in olc gui.you have an alternative tool to take your ranges measurments now.i had add another zoom level (x15) becuase my eyes were tired ...trying to find the edge of mast.i know that this is not historically acurate but i also think that germans didn't deal with pixels when looking through peri.(meaning that had better vision at x6 zoom in RL than the game)also i had adjust the angular angle in order the stadimeter to work correct.(of course some tiny adjustments must be made at mast's heights but this is a huge work to be made by one.as it is now ,you will see that is more acurate than before)
i have in my filefront page ,two sets of this mod. one is called 'x6' and the other 'x15'. the difference between these mods is that the middle u-jagd ring is set for use when you are at x6 zoom(in the 'x6' version) or is setted for use when you are at x15 zoom (in 'x15' version)

ps:if you running olc gui ,i suggest you to try my mod and you will see what i have done.i 'loved' olc gui and didn't touch the procedure,all my mods are additions to it!

ps2: if you want,get from my filefront page the funnels heights.run this last in your mods list . (it has values for the funnels of ships that showen at torpedo training ONLY.enter the torpedo training and play your game BUT looking at FUNNELS,not masts.

i know Pisces that you had dealed with scopes at the past (so you know about what we are talking here) and really wait to hear your opinion about this.
if been possible (that depends of how many will help) i would like to create a mod that all the FUNNELS heights to be adjust for all the ships

sorry for my english,
bye

[Pisces]

If finished uploading the videos to my own filefront page. More OLC stuf will be uploaded next.

http://hosted.filefront.com/Pisces347/2382567

@Makman94

I'll try out your mod soon. I too don't like the lack of resolution due to pixels. But I have taken it for granted sofar and tried to find ways that didn't require actual range measurements. Or used the height of the smoke for things I could not identify. Since I had my last patrol weeks ago it's starting to itch again. Must...sail.... soon!!! ;)

As far as 'dealing with scopes', I only have a functional understanding of it in the game. And the math involved. But I have no idea how OLC, you and the others tweak/modify such things as magnification/FOV settings in the various game files.