View Full Version : Obama's Foreign Relations
Aramike
03-06-09, 05:37 PM
Is it just me, or does it seem that at least weekly we hear a story about the administration bumbling over a meeting with foreign leaders. First the PM Brown incident, and now this: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/03/06/clinton-goofs-russian-translation-tells-diplomat-wants-overcharge-ties/
Is there ANYONE left in the State Department who pays any attention to detail? While, thus far, there are only minor flubs but this is certainly not a reassuring sign...
Add to these a Vice President who can't open his mouth without the words just haphazardly falling out, I'm thinking we should start being worried.
Overboard
03-06-09, 05:53 PM
I'm not sure but maby there just trying to figure out what the hell is going on,
Or maby there just a little scared to take on the former governments crap.
Anyways only time will tell "give them some" and try not to be to quick in judgement....This is what we have like it or not.
Not that any thing i said made any sence.. whitch it did not sorry.
I think this is not news, of any importance, nor represents any serious lacking of attention to detail by the state department, for chrissakes...:haha::woot:
Aramike
03-06-09, 06:43 PM
I think this is not news, of any importance, nor represents any serious lacking of attention to detail by the state department, for chrissakes...:haha::woot:Obviously you don't understand the nuances of foreign relations.
OMG OMG OMG! US IS DOOMED!
Please, tell me something new.
Or was this thread REALLY about the poor translation on Clinton's case?
Frack me. Burn in hell and so on. :salute:
Obviously you don't understand the nuances of foreign relations.
Oh, but obviously you do! :haha:
The world hates a solitary know-it-all, Aramike.
And, Dowly, you nailed it. :salute:
CaptainHaplo
03-06-09, 08:56 PM
Aramike isn't solitary - I am a know it all too - just we seem to know it all differently. Your comment to him - The world hates a solitary know-it-all - is rather a know-it-all statement as well - and one that I would point out is in error as your implying he is solitary - and I have confirmed he isn't.
Honestly Enigma - its ok that your and Aramike or anyone else disagrees - but is there a reason you have to resort to immature little put downs and insults instead of debating facts? I hate to sound so "republican" - but in this case you seem to prove an oft quoted statement - democrats/liberals can't argue on facts, if you face them with some they instead turn to personal attacks and belittlement instead of discussion. I guess thats the new meaning of "inclusive" and "tolerance" - your included and tolerated as long as you don't disagree with the liberal view, otherwise your demeaned and belittled instead of beaten in the "arena of ideas"
And for the record - I don't agree with "modern" republicans on alot of things - this point however I think your proving Enigma.
Also - having debated Aramike on foreign policy - he isn't without some knowledge. While he and I disagree, his views had demonstrated a familiarity of the subject that the "average" US citizen does not have. You may also have such knowledge - and if so - I encourage you to debate the points vs your current tactic.
Aramike
03-06-09, 10:54 PM
Aramike isn't solitary - I am a know it all too - just we seem to know it all differently. Your comment to him - The world hates a solitary know-it-all - is rather a know-it-all statement as well - and one that I would point out is in error as your implying he is solitary - and I have confirmed he isn't.
Honestly Enigma - its ok that your and Aramike or anyone else disagrees - but is there a reason you have to resort to immature little put downs and insults instead of debating facts? I hate to sound so "republican" - but in this case you seem to prove an oft quoted statement - democrats/liberals can't argue on facts, if you face them with some they instead turn to personal attacks and belittlement instead of discussion. I guess thats the new meaning of "inclusive" and "tolerance" - your included and tolerated as long as you don't disagree with the liberal view, otherwise your demeaned and belittled instead of beaten in the "arena of ideas"
And for the record - I don't agree with "modern" republicans on alot of things - this point however I think your proving Enigma.
Also - having debated Aramike on foreign policy - he isn't without some knowledge. While he and I disagree, his views had demonstrated a familiarity of the subject that the "average" US citizen does not have. You may also have such knowledge - and if so - I encourage you to debate the points vs your current tactic.:rock:
Very succint. Kudos.
Zachstar
03-06-09, 11:36 PM
This is news?
Last time I checked nobody was getting ready to fire nukes over this so it is a non issue.
But another chance to attack the President as the dream is for him to fail.
This is news?
Last time I checked nobody was getting ready to fire nukes over this so it is a non issue.
But another chance to attack the President as the dream is for him to fail.
Apparently it is. While it may not directly involve Obama, it may throw a bad light on him and all Americans, because he picked the people in his administration.
Here is another one.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_clinton_gaffes_odd
He picked the people in his administration, and as such, it is his responsibility. Unfortunately.
Aramike
03-07-09, 12:29 AM
This is news?
Last time I checked nobody was getting ready to fire nukes over this so it is a non issue.
But another chance to attack the President as the dream is for him to fail.First of all, "getting ready to fire nukes" is a terrible idea for an indicator of what constitutes an issue.
Secondly, foreign policy decorum errors ARE news. But the New York Times thinks Obama's graying hair (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/05/us/politics/05gray.html) is more news-worthy.
Freiwillige
03-07-09, 03:29 AM
So, I could have told you that Clinton is not the brightest star in the sky. But you cannot spell Clinton without the sickle and hammer:yeah:
I said when Obama appointed her that it was a move to get her out of her powerful seat in the US Senate and into a position where he can fire her. If she keeps giving him ammunition like this that won't be long in coming.
Aramike isn't solitary - I am a know it all too - just we seem to know it all differently. Your comment to him - The world hates a solitary know-it-all - is rather a know-it-all statement as well - and one that I would point out is in error as your implying he is solitary - and I have confirmed he isn't.
I stand corrected? :doh:
Honestly Enigma - its ok that your and Aramike or anyone else disagrees - but is there a reason you have to resort to immature little put downs and insults instead of debating facts? I hate to sound so "republican" - but in this case you seem to prove an oft quoted statement - democrats/liberals can't argue on facts, if you face them with some they instead turn to personal attacks and belittlement instead of discussion. I guess thats the new meaning of "inclusive" and "tolerance" - your included and tolerated as long as you don't disagree with the liberal view, otherwise your demeaned and belittled instead of beaten in the "arena of ideas"
What a complete load of bubbling tripe. Go back and read the thread. My opinion was that it wasn't news, and not important, and overblown by the OP. His response to MY opinion, was that I "clearly" don't know anything about the subject. So please, spare me the whining. There was no debate to be had here.
Aramike
03-07-09, 12:19 PM
What a complete load of bubbling tripe. Go back and read the thread. My opinion was that it wasn't news, and not important, and overblown by the OP. His response to MY opinion, was that I "clearly" don't know anything about the subject. So please, spare me the whining. There was no debate to be had here.Sure there is. The debate is whether or not you understand the nuances of foreign relations. I stated that you clearly don't, because if you did you'd understand that attention to detail is paramount. In my original post in this thread I did state that these were "minor flubs", but the question I was implying is how long before these minor details become major ones?
Also, what you clearly don't get is that there are entire taxpayer-funded bureaus within the State Department who are tasked with assuring these details are properly handled. Why they can't get these things right when that is their very job is worrying. How long before a world leader who's allergic to nuts is served a peanut dish at a state dinner?
Details are paramount in any world negotiations because they also effect the mood of the leaders who are negotiating. Furthermore, leaders more completely respect the negotiators who've done their homework.
I could go on and on about this, but I think I've made the point. I know that it's damned near impossible for you to criticize anything the Obama Administration does, but even Obama is probably feeling a tad embarrassed...
CaptainHaplo
03-07-09, 12:43 PM
And you further prove the point Enigma - "there is no debate here" - "bubbling tripe", "whining" etc etc etc. In other words - you can't carry on a discussion on the meat of the matter - so your dismissive of it.There was no whining - just an invitation for you to add to the topic in a substantiative manner. You apparently can't, or won't.
Thats fair.
Just don't be suprised when an intellectual discourse is dismissive of you for that very reason.
XabbaRus
03-07-09, 01:15 PM
Personally as a Brit I'm offended at the gifts given.
As for the reset button cockup I think it shows gross incompetence. As Aramike has stated in foreign relations there are many nuances and something like this no matter how small can leave the wrong impression.
Are you trying to tell me that the state department doesn't have or couldn't find a native Russian speaker or a member of the dept. who knows Russian well to check it before it was given.
I think at worst though the Russians are having a laugh now at Clinton's expense.
Fella's,
You severely overestimate how your opinion will affect me. Severely.
Love,
Enigma.:yeah:
Fella's,
You severely overestimate how your opinion will affect me. Severely.
Love,
Enigma.:yeah:
Hmmm, maybe you should have bolded Severely just to prove how overestimating everyone really is... :hmmm:
Oh, ....
And I do have criticism for Obama. But, by and large, I think he's doing a good job. Problem?
You see, I won't go out of my way to dig up anything, anything, even something as useless as this ridiculous example above, to criticize Obama. I've been critical of him for reasons I see relevant, but I have no idea why you would think I should be critical just because you think I should be.
If I'm immediatly dismissed as having no clue about foreign relations because I don't care about your fox news story, so be it. Your not interested in anyone else's opinion if it goes against your own, as demonstrated above, so please stop acting like you encourage it.....
Hmmm, maybe you should have bolded Severely just to prove how overestimating everyone really is... :hmmm:
Do you really feel these guys need you to hold their hand, uncle August?
Hmmm, maybe you should have bolded Severely just to prove how overestimating everyone really is... :hmmm:
Do you really feel these guys need you to hold their hand, uncle August?
If I was your uncle i'd have sold you to Gypsies long ago.
Oh, I'm sure I would have killed myself long before that, old man.
Aramike
03-07-09, 04:14 PM
...because I don't care about your fox news story:har:
Can't handle sticking to the facts, so you rely on an ad hominem response???
Okay, fine, here's the same story from another source you may enjoy more (the New York Times):
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/07/world/europe/07diplo.html?hp
Here's a story about the Russian media making fun of Clinton:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.9ca28ad2530b0d0029e1304762eca18 f.8c1&show_article=1
Oh, and here's Reuters reporting on Clinton mispronouncing EU leaders' names and claiming that the US democracy is older than Europe's:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5253XS20090306?sp=true
Or is Reuters too biased for you too?
Oh, and Fox News is typically considered right-wing because of its commentary-type shows - not because of its reporting. But I do find it telling that you believe that simply invoking the name "Fox News" absolves any relevence an issue may have...
Oh, I'm sure I would have killed myself long before that, old man.
Do you often think about killing yourself?
Oh, and Fox News is typically considered right-wing because of its commentary-type shows - not because of its reporting. But I do find it telling that you believe that simply invoking the name "Fox News" absolves any relevence an issue may have...
I didn't say that, you did. I stated where the article came from. That's it. The rest is just projections from an already made up mind. :yawn:
Do you often think about killing yourself?
Do you often think about leaving the house?
Do you often think about killing yourself?
Do you often think about leaving the house?
Naw, I just go ahead and do it. How about you?
Aramike
03-07-09, 04:42 PM
Oh, and Fox News is typically considered right-wing because of its commentary-type shows - not because of its reporting. But I do find it telling that you believe that simply invoking the name "Fox News" absolves any relevence an issue may have...
I didn't say that, you did. I stated where the article came from. That's it. The rest is just projections from an already made up mind. :yawn:Oh, yeah, sure ... you didn't mean anything by it. Riiigghhtt.... :yeah:
If you didn't want to comment on the subject matter in that Fox News article, why are you in this thread again?
Oh yeah, and my mind is made up on this issue. Unless, of course, your saying that there are more facts I should consider, in which case I would reevaluate my position.
That's how open minds work. It doesn't mean we're indecisive, rather it means we evaluate each piece of information without bias.\ and form our biased opinion from that perspective.
:har:
Yeah, you and your open mind. Don't make me laugh....
And I'm in this thread because I can. Problem?
Naw, I just go ahead and do it. How about you?
Leave the house? Yeah, I do that too.
Aramike
03-07-09, 05:08 PM
Yeah, you and your open mind. Don't make me laugh....Typical Enigma ... just making blanket, meaningless statements accented with a laughing emoticon as though you actually have a point you can support. :salute: And I'm in this thread because I can. Problem?And I'm pointing it that it makes little sense for you to be here because I can. Problem?
I don't seem to be the one with the problem, sunshine. It's your panties that need un bunching.
Typical Enigma ... just making blanket, meaningless statements accented with a laughing emoticon as though you actually have a point you can support. :salute:
It wasn't meaningless. It meant you claim to have an open mind, and in turn you are completely full of ****. Do you need supporting facts for that? You have no tolerance for a liberal perspective, or any other than your own for that matter, so, again, why do you act like you do? Anyone can read your post history. Anyone can see that in your mind, conservatives (read: you) are right, and liberals don't understand any of the issues and should shut up.
Let's not forget that you posted an article, I disagreed with you that it was of any importance, and based on that statement, you ruled me incapable of grasping any of the nuances of foreign relations! It's downright laughable. I don't give a rats patoot about how you feel about my posting in this thread. I know you would prefer a world where no one disagreed with you, but guess what. Too frikkin bad. :salute:
Aramike
03-07-09, 05:31 PM
I don't seem to be the one with the problem, sunshine. It's your panties that need un bunching.Judging by your latest rant, you've got it backwards.It wasn't meaningless. It meant you claim to have an open mind, and in turn you are completely full of ****.Actually, you are completely wrong.
You just hate that an independent thinker would find you so consistantly wrong, that you've made that thinker a construct of the opposite of what you consider yourself to be.
I have no problem calling out conservatives when they screw up. But, guess what - liberals are in power, right now. Therefore, it seems more likely that they would have more screwups. Also, I have given several specifics as to why you don't seem to understand the nuances of foreign policy. You haven't refutted them, instead preferring the tactic of whining about me saying that you don't understand the nuances of foreign policy.
I'll just let the rest of the drivel in your latest post stew in its own juices as it is unworthy of further comment.
Come on Aramike! 3 posts a charm! :har:
Aww. Nice delete!
Ok Mr. Open minded....
So, lets see those threads you made when a Republican President:
Groped the Chancellor of Germany
Swore with a mouth full of food while talking to Tony Blair
Joked about not finding WMD's
Parted with Brown and Sarkozy at the G-8 summit, by saying "Goodbye from the world's biggest polluter"
Stated that the Queen first visited America in 1776
.....can't? Yet you found time to discuss a typo made by a democratic administration. That must be that open mind of yours at work.
Don't. Make. Me. Laugh.
Aramike
03-07-09, 05:38 PM
Come on Aramike! 3 posts a charm! :har:
Aww. Nice delete!Damn browser...
Aramike
03-07-09, 05:41 PM
Ok Mr. Open minded....
So, lets see those threads you made when a Republican President:
Groped the Chancellor of Germany
Swore with a mouth full of food while talking to Tony Blair
Joked about not finding WMD's
Parted with Brown and Sarkozy at the G-8 summit, by saying "Goodbye from the world's biggest polluter"
Stated that the Queen first visited America in 1776
.....can't? Yet you found time to discuss a typo made by a democratic administration. That must be that open mind of yours at work.
Don't. Make. Me. Laugh.Of course I can't show you those threads ... I wasn't a member of this board at those times. Nice try, however feeble...
Funny how you avoided actually asking my opinion on those issues. You knew I couldn't have made a thread ... must've really wanted to be right about something.
Now. I. Am. Laughing.
Yes, I'm some kind of evil genius. Muhahahahaaaa.
Ok Mr. Open minded....
So, lets see those threads you made when a Republican President:
:roll:
Enigma you should at least do a little research before you hit "Submit reply" so you don't embarrass yourself. Aramikes joined on date is right there for everyone to see.
Do you really feel these guys need you to hold their hand, uncle August?
:yawn:
CaptainHaplo
03-07-09, 07:06 PM
August, your smarter than that.....
I am suprised at you my friend. After all - Enigma has shown repeatedly that actual facts or truth are not important if they somehow refute or even have a negative bearing on his opinions.
Lets not expect to much of him now....
Enigma - this is meant in jest - though its also hopefully challenging you to actually deal with real facts.
You indicated you had some negative things to say about Obama - how about a link? Or better yet, share some of those for discussion.
Just to prove its a two way street, I do have a positive comment about the President. I think his decision on stem cell research is correct, provided he doesn't remove the safeguards regarding the SOURCES of those cells. To date, he hasn't indicated he would. I applaud that decision.
XabbaRus
03-07-09, 07:28 PM
As a mod can I just ask you guys to cool it. It's been quite a long time since we've had a fight o like this in GT.
I think everyone knows which side of the fence they are on this one. Lets move along shall we?
antikristuseke
03-07-09, 08:19 PM
Strange. I've asked this same question too after coming to this conclusion.
Enigma man, you need help, whether you know it or not. I'm being serious.
-S
That's rich, coming from a conspiracy theorist.
nikimcbee
03-07-09, 08:51 PM
Is it just me, or does it seem that at least weekly we hear a story about the administration bumbling over a meeting with foreign leaders. First the PM Brown incident, and now this: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/03/06/clinton-goofs-russian-translation-tells-diplomat-wants-overcharge-ties/
Is there ANYONE left in the State Department who pays any attention to detail? While, thus far, there are only minor flubs but this is certainly not a reassuring sign...
Add to these a Vice President who can't open his mouth without the words just haphazardly falling out, I'm thinking we should start being worried.
Who said it was a mistake?:haha: obama wants the Russian change too. He's spent all of ours:x .
Onkel Neal
03-08-09, 12:46 AM
As a mod can I just ask you guys to cool it. It's been quite a long time since we've had a fight o like this in GT.
I think everyone knows which side of the fence they are on this one. Lets move along shall we?
Guys, listen to Xabba. Let's try not to get too personal, ok?
Sea Demon
03-08-09, 12:55 AM
I find it so amazing all the lambasting the Bush administration took for "gaffes", when this current administration has had so many of their own. And people who are more inclined to left wing views tend to question the large liberal media bias perpetrated in most news outlets. I don't know how they can honestly not see it. Some of these instances aren't really all that important in the scheme of things. And this gaffe is certainly not such a big deal. To me the big problem is President Obama basically begging people to invest in the stock market and be confident consumers, and somewhere in the same speech talk about capital gains tax increases to those most likely to have the most impact to charge up the markets. Making it viable for other income people to have the confidence to do the same. He doesn't get it, because he is too mired in Class envy politics IMO. To me, that is the most troubling aspect. So far, the President doesn't seem to understand anything about capital investments or incentive and risk. All of this doesn't actually inspire me to have much confidence in this administration.
In terms of real foreign policy, I'm not sure the Obama people truly have a plan yet. And they should have had one long ago. This Clinton gaffe is no big deal. Much more troubling things than this.....
Aramike
03-08-09, 02:09 AM
August, your smarter than that.....I'm not sure August meant anything bad, although I was curious at first. I won't speak for him, but I think he was making an obvious point to Enigma that was SO obvious that our first reaction is it must be sarcasm. But, I'm pretty sure he was being sincere. The point shouldn't have had to be made, but alas, look where the certain individuals took the discussion...
But good lookin' out. :rock:
In any case, right on with the rest of the post.
You know, I try to do my best to approach every argument from a neutral standpoint. I make a point of weighing the pros and cons of both sides, and I try hard to look at things from different perspectives. Then, I come to my final conclusion, which is always open to being changed by new information.
Maybe it's arrogant to think so, but that's how I believe everyone should approach the issues.
Yes, I do more often than not come down on the conservative side of the issues (but not always). But I do so not approaching the issues from that side but rather merely concluding there. The difference between me an someone who's an ideologue is that my conclusions are indifferent to the perspective I started from. With Enigma, for example, it seems, "Obama's a liberal; I'm a liberal, ergo, Obama and extensions of Obama policies are correct".
Enigma somehow got the idea that I've never been critical of the Bush administration. Well, on this board, he's mostly correct - although the fact that I didn't join here until the administration was effectively over would seem to explain that discrepency. I have often been harshly critical of Bush and his policies. But I never disagreed with a policy just because it was Bush's. Just like I don't disagree with Obama just because it's Obama.
This is just some perspective on me. People who think that I'm nothing than a right-wing shill should consider this question: does being critical of the idiotic mistakes made by the left automatically mean that someone is firmly implanted on the right?
Or, does it simply mean that someone believes that there are idiotic mistakes being made?
Aramike
03-08-09, 02:10 AM
I find it so amazing all the lambasting the Bush administration took for "gaffes", when this current administration has had so many of their own.This is spot-on. One also has to consider that the Bush administration lasted for 8 years. Obama's is barely two months old.
CaptainHaplo
03-08-09, 11:36 AM
Xabba and Neil are correct.
Enigma - if you thought I was talking down to you, then I regret that. That has never been my intent. I haven't called you names, or insulted your intelligence. I do realize that in another thread I indicated a response you posted to me indicated a certain level of cluelessness - only because your response directly ignored what I stated. I would rather give you the benefit of having unintentionally missed that portion of my post, as compared to being intellectually dishonest and intentionally ignoring it. That was also limited to that particular post and response. This is, after all, an imperfect medium to communicate.
I have however noted your pattern of stating a view without offering any backing for it, or willingness to discuss it. That can be rather frustrating when people are trying to understand and give proper weight to your view. Heck, you might have great views that some of us never have considered, but we don't know because you don't discuss them.
I have not meant to attack you personally. I instead would love to see you add to the discussion in a meaningful way. Aramike, August and I went through a similiar "spat" and when I offered them an opportunity to put forth their ideas, I recall they did. While we all 3 still likely disagree on that particular issue, its safe to say that instead of the bickering, we each see that the other people have deeply thought out positions that are reasonable. I am sure yours are too. Just those of us that see things differently can't sea the reasoning behind yours.
Its great to disagree or have a different view than someone else. Discussion is an opportunity for you to present your views in a way that can enlighten or educate someone else, like me for example. Its also a way for you to perhaps learn something you didn't know as well, or refine your own views if you have an open mind. By all means, I encourage you, and everyone else - to take those opportunities.
I will stop here as I don't want to end up brigged, and instead simply want to help clear up any bad air.
Kapitan_Phillips
03-08-09, 03:17 PM
*nerve pinches this thread*
UnderseaLcpl
03-08-09, 03:37 PM
*nerve pinches this thread*
Thread: What the hell are you doing?
KapitanPhillips: Uh..... the Vulcan nerve pinch?
Thread: No no no, stupid. You've got it much too high. It's down here where the shoulder meets the neck.
Kapitan Phillips: Like THIS!
Thread: Yeaaaaah...........<passes out>
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