[release] IJN periscope v 1.0

[keltos01]

RL I-400 periscope :

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8672/xjapsub7i400perishotcop.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)
http://www.webenet.net/~ftoon/memory/japsub.html (http://www.webenet.net/%7Eftoon/memory/japsub.html)
(http://g.imageshack.us/img17/xjapsub7i400perishotcop.jpg/1/)



ingame :

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9919/ijnscope.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Finally we have an IJN scope for the IJN submarines :)

It took a bit of trial and error with the alpha channel, at one point I had no mask left but here it come !The picture seen here above was large enough as to have all the scopes' markings visible which in turn ensures a reliable and accurate scope ingame.


download link :

[/URL]
[url]http://www.mediafire.com/file/jcz20in0mo5/V_1.3_IJN_periscope_kaiteL_compass.rar (http://files.filefront.com/V+10+IJN+periscope+I+400Lrar/;13373103;/fileinfo.html)


keltos

[Hitman]

Are you sure that is a TRUE japanese submarine periscope?? :-?

Looks to me very similar to the US one :hmmm: , might be coincidence of course, but still.....

Another question: What are the lines calibrated to? 1 degree?

[keltos01]

Are you sure that is a TRUE japanese submarine periscope?? :-?

Looks to me very similar to the US one :hmmm: , might be coincidence of course, but still.....

Another question: What are the lines calibrated to? 1 degree?
yes it should be, and yes the lines are 1 degree.

The japanese copied both the american and the germans optics for their scopes

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/7967/85574862.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200J-0253-0312%20Report%20X-05.pdf

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/8831/33692108.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200G-0022-0055%20Report%20S-01-1.pdf

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5597/data.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200G-0663-0694%20Report%20S-01-6.pdf

keltos

[keltos01]

FLeet boat periscope :

notice the secondary vertical and horizontal lines forming across to the left and above the crosshairs.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4601/scope02us.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/periscope.html

RL I-400 periscope :

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8672/xjapsub7i400perishotcop.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)
http://www.webenet.net/~ftoon/memory/japsub.html
(http://g.imageshack.us/img17/xjapsub7i400perishotcop.jpg/1/)
Here the secondary crosshair is not there
the vertical graduations do not match the horizontal line like on the US scope
there are 3 graduations under the horizontal line to be level with the vertical markers to the left, 4 on the US scope.


-> ergo different optics

[Hitman]

The fact that the optics were copied from, or inspired by the US and german devices does not mean that the reticles would be copied exactly. In fact, I think that it refers much more to the glass and metallic parts, to the hard parts of the construction.

The shot you posted looks to me like a picture of a japanese submarine when viewed through a US periscope, probably after the rendition of Japan.

There are many pictures taken through periscopes of Fleet Boats, and none I have seen do have those additional vertical and horizontal lines of that drawing you posted above.

See this f.e. : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Periscope-view-sinking.jpg

And this one from Wahoo's scope: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/eb/Wahoo-periscope-view.jpg/180px-Wahoo-periscope-view.jpg

[Hitman]

Come to think of it, may be you would get a good reticle if you are able to see a picture of what current japanese submarines are using today. From what I have seen so far, US Los Angeles class submarines still have in their scopes the same reticle as during WW2, and more or less the same happens with the russian and british submarines.

And in any case, even if it is different from the WW2 counterpart, it still will be positively from a japanese sub :up:

Look at this, this one is a german reticle from the contemporary U-33 (Type 206 class): http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cys2T5FgJdo/SE3z773-xaI/AAAAAAAACok/CuCur92luQE/s320/u33%2Blaunch.jpg

And it looks almost identical to the WW2 reticle in the observation scopes (I have pictures of the manual of one of those scopes and can confirm that)

[keltos01]

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7900/ss200scope2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://www.broseker.net/babroseker/index.shtml

I would tend to think that the american periscopes were standardized.

Here above is a shot through Tresher's scope.

keltos

[keltos01]

Found this small Asahi periscope (last character to the right of the label) on the net :

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6276/a17f08.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


with label on the box :

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/975/a17f02.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.aohc.it/selart17e.htm

which I then used on the IJN periscope :

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1856/scopeasahi.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



So we now have an Asahi labelled periscope :)

Keltos

D/L link :

http://files.filefront.com/V+10+IJN+periscope+I+400Lrar/;13373103;/fileinfo.html

[peabody]

Found this small Asahi periscope (last character to the right of the label) on the net :
which I then used on the IJN periscope :


we now have an Asahi labelled periscope :)

Keltos


Just a suggestion: Why not put it on the scope instead of the Torpedo Launch panel?

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/9387/scopelabel.jpg


Peabody

[keltos01]

Found this small Asahi periscope (last character to the right of the label) on the net :
which I then used on the IJN periscope :


we now have an Asahi labelled periscope :)

Keltos


Just a suggestion: Why not put it on the scope instead of the Torpedo Launch panel?

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/9387/scopelabel.jpg


Peabody
cause I didn't find where the texture came from ? if you can help..

here goes the label :
http://files.filefront.com/labelPeriscopejpg/;13373512;/fileinfo.html

keltos

[keltos01]

FLeet boat periscope :

notice the secondary vertical and horizontal lines forming across to the left and above the crosshairs.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4601/scope02us.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/periscope.html

RL I-400 periscope :

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8672/xjapsub7i400perishotcop.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)
http://www.webenet.net/~ftoon/memory/japsub.html
(http://g.imageshack.us/img17/xjapsub7i400perishotcop.jpg/1/)
Here the secondary crosshair is not there
the vertical graduations do not match the horizontal line like on the US scope
there are 3 graduations under the horizontal line to be level with the vertical markers to the left, 4 on the US scope.
-> ergo different optics

Here's USS Bowfin's periscope : no horizontal line :

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9627/fleetboatscope.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fs earch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dperiscope%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dyfp-t-106%26xargs%3D0%26pstart%3D1%26b%3D22%26ni%3D21&w=500&h=375&imgurl=static.flickr.com%2F3146%2F2979445529_6a7e1 f8546.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Feloran ta_8%2F2979445529%2F&size=65.2kB&name=Periscope&p=periscope&type=JPG&oid=5ae83dddfe8baa60&fusr=eloranta&tit=Periscope&hurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Feloran ta_8%2F&no=40&tt=56,941&sigr=11jbfcbai&sigi=11gsgahnu&sigb=13a0kp9q2&sigh=118tg705g

Keltos

[Hitman]

Very nice pic through periscope :up:

I would say that it is clear by now that the picture you used is of a US periscope. :hmmm: Wether japanese submarines used them or not, is the question, but I'm inclined to believe that there would be some differences.

Are the numbers in japanese normally written as in our language, or do they use special symbols?

[keltos01]

Very nice pic through periscope :up:

I would say that it is clear by now that the picture you used is of a US periscope. :hmmm: Wether japanese submarines used them or not, is the question, but I'm inclined to believe that there would be some differences.

Are the numbers in japanese normally written as in our language, or do they use special symbols?

They used symbols all right, not roman numbers or arabic ones for that matter i think..

I've asked a couple friends in Japan to see what they could dig up at the Kure museum . wait and see..

I wonder where all the data recovered by the US went ? the periscopes and all the studies of japane subs ?

I know they had the Ordnance Bureau analyse them, but hey since i'm in europe it's kindo hard getting access to whatever declassified material there might be... :(

keltos

and it seems that the scope I got my hands on could be post-war as fleet subs' periscopes never show the horizontal line.

[Hitman]

and it seems that the scope I got my hands on could be post-war as fleet subs' periscopes never show the horizontal line.

Which one?? There is none in the pic of the first post :-?

[keltos01]

label on scope :

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3995/asahiperiscope.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/asahiperiscope.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img523/asahiperiscope.jpg/1/)

USS Becuna :

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2424/becunaperiscopeviewofmo.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
@Hitman : this one for instance : USS Becuna's scope

keltos

[Hitman]

@Hitman : this one for instance : USS Becuna's scope

Mate I must be blind but I fail to see any HORIZONTAL line in the first scope picture you posted, claimed to be a japanese submarine one.:doh:

I have however an update about the modern japanese submarine periscopes: They use american kollmorgen periscopes, :damn: so any picture you'd eventually find from them will look like the US ones.

[keltos01]

@Hitman : this one for instance : USS Becuna's scope
Mate I must be blind but I fail to see any HORIZONTAL line in the first scope picture you posted, claimed to be a japanese submarine one.:doh:

I have however an update about the modern japanese submarine periscopes: They use american kollmorgen periscopes, :damn: so any picture you'd eventually find from them will look like the US ones. :har::har::wah::wah:

[keltos01]

gauges going up :

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/10/gauges2.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gauges2.jpg)


sonar :

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/6268/sonar.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sonar.jpg)

Captain on periscope :

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7040/captainperiscope.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainperiscope.jpg)


Periscope view (fake ?) :

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8514/periview.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periview.jpg)

compass :

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8374/compass.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=compass.jpg)


b

[keltos01]

Periscope view 2 :

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7472/periview2.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periview2.jpg)


As the view moves with the periscope, and the ship - a DD ? - comes into view, I'd say the graduations are genuine, they are on the scope.

so this really could be what at least one type of japanese scope looked like ?

the graduations on the scope allow the taking of measurements on the ships's masts thus the range.

Since all the views here are genuine instruments, why wouldn't the periscope be ?




video of L class submarine in training 1941 :

periscope, gauges etc...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3mSiHiR5gM


keltos

keltos

[vanjast]

Keltos01:
Is it possible to get rid of these (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=149114) scale lines on the Uboat scope ?
:)

[keltos01]

Keltos01:
Is it possible to get rid of these (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=149114) scale lines on the Uboat scope ?
:)

Yes, I answered on the other thread.

keltos

[Hitman]

EXCELLENT stuff Keltos!!!

This video certainly shows a lot of interesting things about Japanese submarines :yeah:

I'm inclined to think that, as you say, all stuff depicted is genuine. This was obviously filmed inside a japanese submarine for propaganda/wartime film purpose.

Some quick notes about interesting things I see in the video:

- Depth planes seem to work only manually, no hydraulic system available? The wheels rotate easily and very fast, indicating a string gear reduction to allow easy movement. The hydroplane indicators are above the head of the operators, side by side, and in the video they move when the planes wheels are operated. You can notice that the operators are moving the planes in counterdirection, with the gauges actually following the respective movement correctly. However if you see in detail you can notice that actually they are DIVING -nose down, stern up-. This is probably just because of the film, not real operating.

-Depth gauge seems to be shallow depth one? Only 60 metres is not much...:hmmm: but then again japanese technicians didn't create depth charges for deep explosion, thinking US subs couldn't dive that deep, so it's reasonable to think theirs couldn't either. The interior scale in the depth gauge seems to be a vernier, for enhanced precision of the external one.

-There is a clinometer inside the depth gauge. The bubble is fully right as the sub noses up while raising to peri depth.

-The interiors of these submarines are VERY cramped, even in the large models.

-The periscope is apparently binocular, and you can see a gradation dented wheel on the left hand, above the handle. Probably for fine focusing. On the right side is a two positions lever, which is more than probably the zoom lever (low and high power).

The reduced size of the scope, the fact of being binocular (Which requires additional prisms inside) and the need of space to acomodate the two zooms lead me to think that there is NO double prism stadimeter inside, unlike what happens in US scopes (Those one trade binocular prism for stadimeter inside the housing). However, the dented wheel mentioned before could well be the double prism stadimeter if I'm wrong, but in that case I fail to see the readout for the results.

-The scope reticle seems authentic. I would not bet for a graduation in degrees, as each big mark is 5 and a small 1. If the scope lacks a double prism stadiameter as I suppose, the most reasonable thing is to suppose that the scale follows radians and not degrees, as that allows easy menthal calculations of distance as opposed to using degrees,

-The compass is labelled with conventional western lettering (N/S/E/W) but that doesn't mean it is not authentic; I have seen russian submarines uses compasses that have also exactly the same lettering despite the letters in the cyrilic alphabet not being coincident, nor the nomenclature for north/east/west/south.

-In the second periscope observation you can notice that the IWO on the left has a chronometer in his hands.

Well that's all for now, hope you find something useful in my comments :salute:

[keltos01]

EXCELLENT stuff Keltos!!!

This video certainly shows a lot of interesting things about Japanese submarines :yeah:

I'm inclined to think that, as you say, all stuff depicted is genuine. This was obviously filmed inside a japanese submarine for propaganda/wartime film purpose.

Some quick notes about interesting things I see in the video:

- Depth planes seem to work only manually, no hydraulic system available? The wheels rotate easily and very fast, indicating a string gear reduction to allow easy movement. The hydroplane indicators are above the head of the operators, side by side, and in the video they move when the planes wheels are operated. You can notice that the operators are moving the planes in counterdirection, with the gauges actually following the respective movement correctly. However if you see in detail you can notice that actually they are DIVING -nose down, stern up-. This is probably just because of the film, not real operating.

-Depth gauge seems to be shallow depth one? Only 60 metres is not much...:hmmm: but then again japanese technicians didn't create depth charges for deep explosion, thinking US subs couldn't dive that deep, so it's reasonable to think theirs couldn't either. The interior scale in the depth gauge seems to be a vernier, for enhanced precision of the external one.

-There is a clinometer inside the depth gauge. The bubble is fully right as the sub noses up while raising to peri depth.

-The interiors of these submarines are VERY cramped, even in the large models.

-The periscope is apparently binocular, and you can see a gradation dented wheel on the left hand, above the handle. Probably for fine focusing. On the right side is a two positions lever, which is more than probably the zoom lever (low and high power).

The reduced size of the scope, the fact of being binocular (Which requires additional prisms inside) and the need of space to acomodate the two zooms lead me to think that there is NO double prism stadimeter inside, unlike what happens in US scopes (Those one trade binocular prism for stadimeter inside the housing). However, the dented wheel mentioned before could well be the double prism stadimeter if I'm wrong, but in that case I fail to see the readout for the results.

-The scope reticle seems authentic. I would not bet for a graduation in degrees, as each big mark is 5 and a small 1. If the scope lacks a double prism stadiameter as I suppose, the most reasonable thing is to suppose that the scale follows radians and not degrees, as that allows easy menthal calculations of distance as opposed to using degrees,

-The compass is labelled with conventional western lettering (N/S/E/W) but that doesn't mean it is not authentic; I have seen russian submarines uses compasses that have also exactly the same lettering despite the letters in the cyrilic alphabet not being coincident, nor the nomenclature for north/east/west/south.

-In the second periscope observation you can notice that the IWO on the left has a chronometer in his hands.

Well that's all for now, hope you find something useful in my comments :salute:
glad you agree on the scope :salute:

now I can mod it !!! a real IJN one ! :)

I will respond in details to your answer tomorrow, but the quality of the movie is so much better than the Gochin one I have (maybe a damaged copy ?)

there is a second movie, with parts that you see in Gochin, so maybe a lost part of it or what we call "rushes". will post part of it tomorrow as time allows
keltos
video of L class submarine in training 1941 :

periscope, gauges etc...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3mSiHiR5gM

[rubenandthejets]

Does this mean I can cancel that trip to Kure? :woot:

[keltos01]

L type training movie 1941 periscope view (supposedly) :

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7472/periview2.jpg
By keltos01 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/keltos01) at 2009-03-09


Does this mean I can cancel that trip to Kure? :woot:

You don't get off that easy !
please go to Kure, we need actual data, real confirmation that this could be an IJN scope reticle. They can give us that.

better : an actual picture taken through a type 88 periscope a bit like the US one here below
good : a sketch or blueprint of a type 88 periscope reticle.

I need you to go there, their website is so empty it makes me wanna cry ! not even an email address there !!!!!!

here are some pictures of the museum :
http://www.kankou.pref.hiroshima.jp/global/english/guide/kurephoto.html


Peabody and Ed low at J-aircraft think the periscope view is faked, Hunter thinks like I did that since everything in the movie is genuine, then why the periscope view wouldn't be ?

what do you think ?

keltos



american periscope views :

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2779/snjuan.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/4834/pershots2.html

[joegrundman]

I can't see why it would be assumed to be faked. It has all the scales necessary to do the job, but it is clearly not a US or German scope (what did British scopes look like?) Also the film was made in 1941, so it's not like they would have had someone else's scope reticule available, so even if it was mocked up (which it doesn't look like) it would be based most likely on their real scopes.

So i'd go for this design, at present it is clearly your best bet

[keltos01]

YATTA !!!!

found the real deal !!!


http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1839/022xrh.th.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=022xrh.jpg)
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7077

Major Walter Schmidt : shot with Canon IXY DIGITAL 900 IS (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=Canon+IXY+DIGITAL+900+IS&make=Canon) at 2009-03-09

Kaiten Typ. 10 (prototype)
note the small size-must have been hell in there not to mention the fact that you were facing certian death.....
the latter 2 fotos show the periscope of the kaiten and what it looks like to look inside.


Rubenandthejets : get me more and better pictures of this one please !!!!
I also saw sub models etc.. so actually a good photo report that you would post as a new thread would be good.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7077

google is hard to use sometimes ;) had to look up periscope view Kure to find it !!!! took me 2 darn weeks of looking on the web...

type 88 periscope :

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2650/83592287daknkmb0dsc0672.jpg
shot with DSC-L1 (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-L1&make=SONY) at 2009-03-09
http://www.pbase.com/takeda/image/83592287

keltos

[joegrundman]

that's pretty cool!

[Hitman]

Keltos!

This last one is excellent :yeah: And it seems to confirm a good part of my previous comments:

First of all, the gradation is in 5 unit increments (1 big mark per 5 units) and not each 4 as in the US scopes

Second, the horizontal reticle is divided in degrees, as you can see the proper symbol above the "5". However, the vertical reticle is in my opinion divided in radians, and that was a common practice in military periscopes/telescopes for rangefinding when no stadimeter was available. German U-Boat periscopes also used that pattern. The horizontal is in turn divided in degrees because its use is for "lead aiming" and not for rangefinding, hence you go back to degrees because that's the unit you also use in the firing solution computation :shucks:

The only details I don't see now completely logic in the video are:

-Lack of any numbering.
-Exact same division for horizontal and vertical.

Both details are different in the periscope view you posted, but are not essential in any case.

If I were you I would however model the reticle you can positively point at as coming from japanese submarine:rock:

[Hitman]

Update!!

Just checked the graphic and did some measurements, and I can confirm what I said above:

The vertical marks are mils, and the 10 mark is therefore approx at 6 degrees (Probably at the ideal figure of 5,75º), while the horizontal ones are degrees.

The vertical scale numbering in the larger marks -difficult to read, but not once you know what is there- is actually: 5,10,15,20 and 25 upwards and downwards from the centre.

The marks are calibrated for LOW power, as in german periscopes

The field of view from this scope at low power is around 40º

The zoom is unknown, but my bet goes for a 1,5x and 6x zoom respectively.

Good job :salute:

[keltos01]

Keltos!

This last one is excellent :yeah: And it seems to confirm a good part of my previous comments:

First of all, the gradation is in 5 unit increments (1 big mark per 5 units) and not each 4 as in the US scopes

Second, the horizontal reticle is divided in degrees, as you can see the proper symbol above the "5". However, the vertical reticle is in my opinion divided in radians, and that was a common practice in military periscopes/telescopes for rangefinding when no stadimeter was available. German U-Boat periscopes also used that pattern. The horizontal is in turn divided in degrees because its use is for "lead aiming" and not for rangefinding, hence you go back to degrees because that's the unit you also use in the firing solution computation :shucks:

The only details I don't see now completely logic in the video are:

-Lack of any numbering.
-Exact same division for horizontal and vertical.

Both details are different in the periscope view you posted, but are not essential in any case.

If I were you I would however model the reticle you can positively point at as coming from japanese submarine:rock:


I will do the one from the Kaiten type 10 scope.

btw who said it wasn't a very good scope ? the captain of I-47 ! he said those scopes were useless to attack at night and were of poor quality, you have then to imagine that the type 88 periscope had much better optics .

I think that in the video they mimicked the real scope, as filming through a periscope is very difficult as you can see in Gochin.

keltos

but I still need better pictures taken through that scope Rubenandthejets ! and.. I know you are dying to put your eye to the eyepiece of that scope !

I know I am... :nope:

[joegrundman]

I agree that the video image is likely a mock-up and go for the kaiten image

I think the image is probably good enough to model the ingame one. Ask Hitman to draw you a mathematically precise template and he'll love the job!

[keltos01]

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5493/periscopekaiten10protot.jpg


http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/5493/periscopekaiten10protot.jpg
By keltos01 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/keltos01) at 2009-03-09



I already redrew the markings from the pthotograph using Autocad.

There is also a circle visible in the lower left quadrant of the image.

and maybe another one, larger, in the upper right corner.

keltos

[Hitman]

I had noticed that circle also, but the size of it makes no sense for calculations at 11º :hmmm: unless it's the maximum lead angle for japanese torpedoes, a rough indicator of the proximity of very close targets, or something similar.

It could very well be a image distortion due to a worn out layer in the external lense on a unprotected part of it or similar.

In this thread here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=148975 I uploaded for Vanjast the reticles I did for the german periscopes in SH4. The one in the observation scope has already the divisions you need, calculated for the game when using an aperture angle of 47 in cameras.dat IIRC. That will put the german reticle out of the scope view, and also give you exact readings from the reticle, at the cost of losing 5º FOV at each side (Unfortunately no alternative is possible since the reticle is hardcoded).

Hope that works for you :up:

[keltos01]

I had noticed that circle also, but the size of it makes no sense for calculations at 11º :hmmm: unless it's the maximum lead angle for japanese torpedoes, a rough indicator of the proximity of very close targets, or something similar.

It could very well be a image distortion due to a worn out layer in the external lense on a unprotected part of it or similar.

In this thread here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=148975 I uploaded for Vanjast the reticles I did for the german periscopes in SH4. The one in the observation scope has already the divisions you need, calculated for the game when using an aperture angle of 47 in cameras.dat IIRC. That will put the german reticle out of the scope view, and also give you exact readings from the reticle, at the cost of losing 5º FOV at each side (Unfortunately no alternative is possible since the reticle is hardcoded).

Hope that works for you :up:

some of what you just wrote is greek to me !

I thought : I redraw what I see in the RL picture, create a mask in photoshop, change the periscope.dds, done !

too easy ? :hmmm:

about the circles :

the inner one is definitely there. the outer one I'm not so sure, but it goes straight to the 25 mark on the vertical scale.

keltos

[joegrundman]

I think in the original images, there is a very fine vertical line also present that goes through the gradations on the vertical scale.

[Hitman]

I thought : I redraw what I see in the RL picture, create a mask in photoshop, change the periscope.dds, done !

too easy ? :hmmm:


LOL yes too easy :haha:

It won't work that way as intended...

You need to be precise for the scale to work as conceived. :)

The vertical scale is a means of easily getting distance thanks to simple calculations. Each small mark is not one degree, but approximately 0.6 degrees. Why? Because that is close enough to a radian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radian) and allows stadiametric rangefinding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadiametric_rangefinding) if you know or can estimate the target's heigth.

A quick example: Looking through the periscope of the Kaiten you see a destroyer whose mast reaches the "10" mark in low power magnification. How far is she?

Asuming a 25 metres mast (A good average for destroyers) you do following maths:

25 metres (mast ) x 100 (The scale "constant" value)= 2500

2500 / 10 (heigth the mast reaches in the scope scale) = 250 metres

The destroyer is 250 metres away.

The same example, but the destroyer is reaching only the "5" in the scale:

25 metres (mast ) x 100 (The scale "constant" value) = 2500

25000 / 5 (heigth the mast reaches in the scope scale) = 500 metres

Got it now? :DL

I created my german periscope reticles for SH3 and SH4 using that same principle, adjusting the marks to the proper size, so I could use them to calculate distance as they were intended. It would be a crime to do all the research job you have completed, and now leave the scale inaccurate. :damn:

I will send you a finished scale in a moment, stay tuned. I will just modify my current german one and you are ready to go. :yeah:

[keltos01]

I don't see a vertical line when I zoom (and I can go pretty far in Raster Design...)

keltos





In this archived document they state that Nippon Optical Co made periscopes,
Rubenandthejets : can you get few pictures of the outside of the scope too : labels etc... ?


http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200J-0253-0312%20Report%20X-05.pdf

[keltos01]

LOL yes too easy :haha:

It won't work that way as intended...

You need to be precise for the scale to work as conceived. :)

The vertical scale is a means of easily getting distance thanks to simple calculations. Each small mark is not one degree, but approximately 0.6 degrees. Why? Because that is close enough to a radian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radian) and allows stadiametric rangefinding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadiametric_rangefinding) if you know or can estimate the target's heigth.

A quick example: Looking through the periscope of the Kaiten you see a destroyer whose mast reaches the "10" mark in low power magnification. How far is she?

Asuming a 25 metres mast (A good average for destroyers) you do following maths:

25 metres (mast ) x 100 (The scale "constant" value)= 2500

2500 / 10 (heigth the mast reaches in the scope scale) = 250 metres

The destroyer is 250 metres away.

The same example, but the destroyer is reaching only the "5" in the scale:

25 metres (mast ) x 100 (The scale "constant" value) = 2500

25000 / 5 (heigth the mast reaches in the scope scale) = 500 metres

Got it now? :DL

I created my german periscope reticles for SH3 and SH4 using that same principle, adjusting the marks to the proper size, so I could use them to calculate distance as they were intended. It would be a crime to do all the research job you have completed, and now leave the scale inaccurate. :damn:
I agree completely
I will send you a finished scale in a moment, stay tuned. I will just modify my current german one and you are ready to go. :yeah:


do you mean you are actually gonna make that reticle for us at the Japanese Campaign mod ?
:o :) :DL :D :up:

As I told the guys at RFB, our aim is to be as precise as possible in what we do, so far all our models and changes have paved the way to a Real I-Boat mod.

I would truly appreciate if you could help in that way then.

do you need the stuff I drew in autocad or are the here posted pictures good enough ?

keltos




additionnal intel :

iii) Periscopes and Lens CoatingsAdded to the company's accomplishments in rangefinder production were similar successes made in the field of periscope manufacturing. Nippon Kogaku's first periscope was produced in 1918, and had an overall length of seven metres.49 (http://grad.usask.ca/gateway/archive17.html#e49)Following the First World War, the company began to produce periscopes based upon German designs, manufacturing between 50 and 60 units between 1920 and 1922.50 (http://grad.usask.ca/gateway/archive17.html#e50)By the mid 1920s, German technicians were hired by the company to aid in the development of new models, and records indicate that by the beginning of the Showa period, large numbers of 9-metre and 10-metre periscopes were being produced.51 (http://grad.usask.ca/gateway/archive17.html#e51)Added to these models, which were featured aboard most first and second-class IJN submarines, was a series of smaller periscopes for use aboard the navy's controversial midget submarines. The questionable effectiveness of these one to five-man submersibles notwithstanding, Nippon Kogaku was called upon to make working periscopes for the over 300 units that were produced across their various classes.52 (http://grad.usask.ca/gateway/archive17.html#e52)






Added to the optical engineering of the periscopes themselves was an ongoing effort made by Nippon Kogaku to increase the transparency of their glass surfaces. The standard 10-metre periscope produced by the company featured 33 individual optical elements and its complexity resulted in dramatic light losses.53 (http://grad.usask.ca/gateway/archive17.html#e53)In the interest of maintaining their strategic advantage, Japanese submarine commanders wished to use their periscopes at dawn and in the low light of early evening, but the initial inferiority of the optics prevented them from doing so without difficulty. These commanders placed great pressure on the navy and on Nippon Kogaku to improve the performance of their periscopes under low light conditions, and the company responded by initiating research into new lens coating techniques aimed at increasing their transparency. According to the investigators in the U.S. Navy technical mission:…two methods were found for 'coating' glass surfaces:1. The chemical method, in which the glass was treated with nitric acid.
2. The evaporation method, in which cryolite is evaporated and deposited upon the glass surface, in vacuum. After treatment, the glass is baked at 150°C for one hour for durability.54 (http://grad.usask.ca/gateway/archive17.html#e54)




These procedures were evidently conducted at the Nippon Kogaku's optical factory at Yokosuka, in coordination with the navy's submarine base at Nagaura Harbour. During their analysis of the plant, the U.S. Navy investigators noted: 'Evidence was found that lens coatings had been carried on' and recorded that 'a few samples of apparently experimental coatings and coating material were obtained.'55 (http://grad.usask.ca/gateway/archive17.html#e55)Such experimental work demonstrated the kinds of subsidiary technologies generated by the company's efforts to deliver on IJN optical contracts. As engineers sought new ways to solve these kinds of design problems, a host of secondary investigations was inevitably added to their ongoing studies in the field of glass production. These new tasks included: experimental methods of glass annealing, the four-stage grinding and polishing of both lenses and prisms, and a variety of efforts to enhance night viewing with the aid of lens coatings and filters.56 (http://grad.usask.ca/gateway/archive17.html#e56)The company's efforts in the field of experimental periscope lens coatings would be of particular importance in the postwar period as such coatings were later found to have a variety of optical applications. Periscope production too continued after the war, and Nikon manufactured instruments for construction surveying, as well as a series of 10 metre periscopes for use in the railcar maintenance bays of the shinkansen, or bullet-train railway line.57 (http://grad.usask.ca/gateway/archive17.html#e57)

periscopes diagrams :

type 3 periscope :

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2365/type3periscopediagram.jpg
By keltos01 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/keltos01) at 2009-03-09



Kaiten periscope :

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1906/kaitenperiscopediagram.jpg
By keltos01 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/keltos01) at 2009-03-09


http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200J-0253-0312%20Report%20X-05.pdf

[keltos01]

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1347/attperiscopemask1024cop.jpg
By keltos01 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/keltos01) at 2009-03-09

this is a quick one using what I had redrawn..

keltos

[Hitman]

do you mean you are actually gonna make that reticle for us at the Japanese Campaign mod ?


Yes, it's not a huge job for me now that most research is done :DL

Here is a Beta for you to try: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jnzn4cenyja

I wanted to upload it earlier, but the server has been down :-?

I would truly appreciate if you could help in that way then.

do you need the stuff I drew in autocad or are the here posted pictures good enough ?


Any description of the characteristics of the optics (Available zooms, etc) would help narrowing down their true performance, so we can recreate them accurately. I sent you long ago the link to the document in Fischer Tropp web, but I can't find it any longer :damn:

I'll study what you are posting and will make the proper updates.:shucks:

[keltos01]

do you mean you are actually gonna make that reticle for us at the Japanese Campaign mod ?

Yes, it's not a huge job for me now that most research is done :DL

Here is a Beta for you to try: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jnzn4cenyja

I wanted to upload it earlier, but the server has been down :-?

I would truly appreciate if you could help in that way then.

do you need the stuff I drew in autocad or are the here posted pictures good enough ?

Any description of the characteristics of the optics (Available zooms, etc) would help narrowing down their true performance, so we can recreate them accurately. I sent you long ago the link to the document in Fischer Tropp web, but I can't find it any longer :damn:

I'll study what you are posting and will make the proper updates.:shucks:
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/prima...ort%20X-05.pdf (http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200J-0253-0312%20Report%20X-05.pdf)

it was in one of my posts here... ;)

why doesn't the reticle go to 15° like the picture ?

where do I slip the files in ?

keltos

[Hitman]

The reticle doesn't go more than 15 upwards/downwards because for that I would need to allow the standard full field of view, and that would show the old german reticle....

The file cameras.dat goes into data/library (make back up first)

The scope mask must be renamed to whatever name the german scope mask has and placed where the original one is, substituting it, which I currently can't tell because I don't have UBoat Missions installed.

I thought you would know already where the scope mask goes, since you have tweaked it... :hmmm:

[Hitman]

That document was not teh one I meant, but never mind I got to the index and there are a lot more than when I first found it WOW

Interesting....

night periscope has 1,5 and 10x zoom

attack periscope has 1,5 and 6x zoom

Lookout binoculars are 20x

Must go now, will go on with this later :up:

[keltos01]

:oops: yeah I kindo knew where it was..


http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/7156/japscope.jpg (http://img379.imageshack.us/my.php?image=japscope.jpg)



http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/2046/japreticle.jpg (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=japreticle.jpg)


now the periscope head isn't the same as in the japanese movie from 1941...

but the reticle is real !

the view doesn't change yet when you zoom.

keltos

can we have the circle in ? or leave it out till we figure if it was really there ?

btw I changed the file in .dds otherwise it doesn't show.

keltos

[peabody]

I can't see why it would be assumed to be faked.

We didn't automatically assume it to be 'faked', but there are several clues in the file which indicate the camera was not shooting through the scope but the "mask" was added later when the file was copied. It is possible the scope looked like that but I don't feel from the "evidence" that this is actual footage taken through the scope.
I took the scope section and clipped it, stretched it to put it in slow motion and using some info from almost 40 years of photograph experience, there are too many things that don't add up.

Peabody

[keltos01]

i thought of something more like this :

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9854/30081879.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=30081879.jpg)


but with black reticle

keltos

[peabody]

Ok, color me stupid but you lost me on this one. How can both of the red lines be 10 degrees?

Second: What are the 10s around the outside of the view? Pointed with the yellow.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8262/scopedegrees.jpg


Peabody

[keltos01]

Ok, color me stupid but you lost me on this one. How can both of the red lines be 10 degrees?

Second: What are the 10s around the outside of the view? Pointed with the yellow.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8262/scopedegrees.jpg


Peabody

those would be left over from the german reticle I think, but don't know why ?

anyhow which reticle do you like best ?

keltos

[keltos01]

help from Ed Low at J-aircraft forum :

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=7184.15

keltos

[peabody]

Ok, color me stupid but you lost me on this one. How can both of the red lines be 10 degrees?

Second: What are the 10s around the outside of the view? Pointed with the yellow.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8262/scopedegrees.jpg


Peabody
those would be left over from the german reticle I think, but don't know why ?

anyhow which reticle do you like best ?

keltos

The other one I can't even read.

You say it was 'left over from the german" what was the red or yellow? I asked two questions, I don't know which one you answered. :DL
Another question on this, where did the X15 come from? As it sits now I don't get it. So I can't really give you an answer, because it doesn't make sense to me.

Peabody

[Hitman]

there are several clues in the file which indicate the camera was not shooting through the scope but the "mask" was added later when the file was copied. It is possible the scope looked like that but I don't feel from the "evidence" that this is actual footage taken through the scope.


I'm inclined to concur on that, the more so after browsing through the Fischer Tropp web files, were it states that the pictures taken with cameras through scopes was a primitive technique for the japanese, not giving good results. It looks as it would be a fake scope, although inspired in the real one. The exact same size for vertical and horizontal scope also doesn't match well with the distribution in the real scope I commented above (radians vs. degrees).


Ok, color me stupid but you lost me on this one. How can both of the red lines be 10 degrees?

Second: What are the 10s around the outside of the view? Pointed with the yellow.


Very easy: The modified cameras.dat reduces the Field of view to 30º, thus kicking the old reticle out of the visible area. But the "10" marks are scripted in the menu.ini file and must be manually edited (Something I leave for a perfected final version). They stay were the 10 degree mark was before opening the field of view, which is no longer there :DL

anyhow which reticle do you like best ?


The reticle you posted is of course apparently more exact looking, yet as I explained before it will not work as intended. If you are planning to eliminate the double prism stadimeter in the periscope (And IJN subs apparently had none) you need an exact reticle for manual targeting, so I prefer mine.

[Hitman]

Oh I forgot: Both red lines are actually 10 degrees, BUT one is linear and the other is curved. In the scope field of view it is linear, in the bearing indicator it is curved due to being adapted to a full 360º circumference.

You can do an easy check: place the central vertical line on any fixed object (a tree). Take menthal note of where the linear 10 degree mark is now (Pick another tree as reference). Now move the scope to put on that second tree the central line: ou will see that the scope effectively rotated those 10 degrees :yeah:

[keltos01]

Oh I forgot: Both red lines are actually 10 degrees, BUT one is linear and the other is curved. In the scope field of view it is linear, in the bearing indicator it is curved due to being adapted to a full 360º circumference.

You can do an easy check: place the central vertical line on any fixed object (a tree). Take menthal note of where the linear 10 degree mark is now (Pick another tree as reference). Now move the scope to put on that second tree the central line: ou will see that the scope effectively rotated those 10 degrees :yeah:

can't we find a way for this to work with the larger view (30°) ?

keltos

[joegrundman]

I don't see a vertical line when I zoom (and I can go pretty far in Raster Design...)

keltos

it's very faint, but it's most clear at the top of periscope view. It's most apparent at lower zoom. At higher zoom it gets lost in the noise. But maybe it's not really there.

joe

[joegrundman]

I can't see why it would be assumed to be faked.
We didn't automatically assume it to be 'faked', but there are several clues in the file which indicate the camera was not shooting through the scope but the "mask" was added later when the file was copied. It is possible the scope looked like that but I don't feel from the "evidence" that this is actual footage taken through the scope.
I took the scope section and clipped it, stretched it to put it in slow motion and using some info from almost 40 years of photograph experience, there are too many things that don't add up.

Peabody

thanks Peabody

i had already reversed my opinion, and was in agreement with your assessment. I salute your perspicacity!:salute:

[keltos01]

Ed Low's reticle :

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2091/periscopenumbers.jpg (http://img16.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periscopenumbers.jpg)
By keltos01 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/keltos01)

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2091/periscopenumbers.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periscopenumbers.jpg)
By keltos01 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/keltos01)

in the backgroung you can see the Kaiten type 10 prototype and its periscope

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8540/047kayriu3.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/my.php?image=047kayriu3.jpg)
By keltos01 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/keltos01)
I have received a reticle made by Ed Low at J-Aircraft forum, he sent it to me in .AI, .pdf, .jpg formats.

It's just missing the vertical line and the ° next to the numbers.


There must be a way to use this reticle without changing the camera view.

I noticed when I first worked on the periscope that there was a data\menu\gui\SH3periscope.dds there, so maybe it is used by the german side of the uboot add-on too ?


keltos

[keltos01]

new pictures from Major Walter Schmidt from his trip to the Kure museum :

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4789/8616a8147e3d028ec13a5b6.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/my.php?image=8616a8147e3d028ec13a5b6.jpg)
By keltos01 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/keltos01)


Keltos

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=152805#post152805 (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=152805#post152805)
Posted by: Major Walter Schmidt


thread at Jaircraft.com :
http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=7184.msg52095#msg52095

thread at WWIIincolor :
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7077

[keltos01]

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4858/periscopemask102410prse.jpg (http://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periscopemask102410prse.jpg)


After Illustrator :



http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1959/periscopemask1024100cop.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periscopemask1024100cop.jpg)
By keltos01 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/keltos01)



I remade the reticle using Autocad, because there I can specify distances and measure precisely, unlike Illustrator.

the distances I used were :

100 from center to the 25 mark on the vertical scale.

-> divided by 25 = 4 units per graduation for the vertical scale.

35 units per 5° on the horizontal scale

-> divided by 5 = 7 units per graduation on the horizontal scale.

As the upper and lower scales were aligned with the center, but each on one side of a line that would go through the center, I represented it to the left of that line for the lower scale, and to the right for the upper scale.

The two circles visible on the photograph were placed too :

the first one at the 18.71 mark on the vertical scale

the second at the 25 mark on the vertical scale

I didn't draw neither a horizontal nor a vertical line passing through the center as I believe none are on the reticle.

now I will import it back into illustrator to set the lines' thicknesses, then back into photoshop to edit the mask.

I set the reticle's marks thickness to 0.75, 0.5 for the first and most visible circle and 0.25 for the wider and less visible one. The exterior circle materializing the view's edge is set to 0.75.


Keltos



IJN Kaiten type 10 periscope reticle in Adobe Illustrator 10 format :

http://files.filefront.com/IJN+Kaiten+periscope+v11trar/;13442418;/fileinfo.html (http://files.filefront.com/IJN+Kaiten+periscope+v11trar/;13442418;/fileinfo.html)

[Hitman]

I have checked Ed Low's reticle and the proportions seem right (10 in the vertical scale is approx 5.75 in the horizontal one). The problem to implement this in SH4 is that the hardcoded german reticle shows at 30º, hence doing a FOV larger than 30º will make the reticle show in screen.

[tater]

Any idea why the rings are there? Are they in mils, perhaps?

[keltos01]

no not yet Tater...

But they are there so they must serve a purpose ! maybe ask Nikon ?

keltos

[keltos01]

version 1.1 IJN periscope mod

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6333/37554160.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=37554160.jpg)


here's how it now looks ingame :)

It has a diffrent feel about it !

keltos

[Hitman]

The rings don't correspond neither to mils not to degrees, otherwise they would match one of the existing marks, -which they don't-

My main guess is that if they were placed intentionally there (And are not simply a defect in the lense or the outcome of an imperfect way of either building or coating it) they are exclusive for the Kaiten and are for very fast measuring of expected targets within attack distance.

It could very well be that the rings are respectively for the average BB, CA and DD at ideal approach conditions.

[Hitman]

UPDATE: We cross-posted keltos...

The reticle looks very good but you can see that:

1) 10 real degrees on that field of view (readable in the german scale) do NOT match with 10 degrees in the new scale. Thus it is off the correct proportions

2) The old german reticle still shows, causing a very odd effect.

[keltos01]

UPDATE: We cross-posted keltos...

The reticle looks very good but you can see that:

1) 10 real degrees on that field of view (readable in the german scale) do NOT match with 10 degrees in the new scale. Thus it is off the correct proportions

2) The old german reticle still shows, causing a very odd effect.

I know, now I'll try and get rid of that. I think it has to do with the SH3periscope.dds file somehow.

keltos

[keltos01]

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1838/10degresslowpower.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10degresslowpower.jpg)

aimed at a tree (0)

10 mark on lighthouse

moved 0 to light house : roughly 10 degrees no ?

but the extra horizontal and vertical scales must come from a dds or a tga somewhere... where ???

keltos

[Hitman]

but the extra horizontal and vertical scales must come from a dds or a tga somewhere... where ???

In SH3 they were hardcoded. Believe me, I have tried everything possible to get rid of them, to no avail :damn: The image in SH3 scope isn't responsable, nor could I find any other that would do the trick. Perhaps only Racerboy could help us with that if he digs in some of the external controllers. If it is somehow fully encoded in the exe ... it is hopeless.

[keltos01]

scale in data\menu\gui\periscope.dds (and SH3periscope.dds)

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5038/periscope.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periscope.jpg)

blanked out scale :

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2526/periscopedds.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periscopedds.jpg)


I found the scale in the periscope.dds (same place as in the SH3periscope.dds), I blanked both areas in the RGB layer and the alpha layer (see here above)

still shows up ingame :damn:

keltos

keltos

[AVGWarhawk]

Whatever the case on the scope Keltos...I like what you are doing here and making the interior with Japanese symbols, etc. :up:

[keltos01]

Whatever the case on the scope Keltos...I like what you are doing here and making the interior with Japanese symbols, etc. :up:

Thanks from Peabody and I ! We try to do as accurate a job as we can here, and Peabody keeps me on track, otherwise I'd do 101 things and maybe not finish them all...

keltos

[keltos01]

version 1.1 IJN periscope mod
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6333/37554160.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=37554160.jpg)
[/URL]

here's how it now looks ingame

(http://g.imageshack.us/img212/37554160.jpg/1/)
I would like to ask you guys here at subsim if you could help me.


http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1838/10degresslowpower.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10degresslowpower.jpg)
[URL="http://g.imageshack.us/img8/10degresslowpower.jpg/1/"]

here above : from the tree to the lighthouse 10° on the scope's horizontal scale, about 10° on the compass above - good enough ? -


Now Peabody tells me to go one step further and make it really accurate and he's right about that, , so as a first step I need people to beta test it, and tell me :

- if the horizontal degree scale is accurate according to the upper compass

- if they can use the vertical scale (radians) to determine range of target

in a word : if the layout of the reticle is accurate enough to play manually.


download link:
http://files.filefront.com/V+11+IJN+periscope+kaitesrar/;13444773;/fileinfo.html


keltos

[keltos01]

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8325/reticlecopie.jpg (http://img16.imageshack.us/my.php?image=reticlecopie.jpg)
By keltos01 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/keltos01)

Right.

I imported the printscreen with the reticles on the tree and lighthouse into Autocad.

I set the image to the same size as the reticle I was working on.

Degrees were 7 units in Autocad when I made it if you remember my previous post.

The (gowd-darn) scale on the left is hardcoded, and is in degrees.

so my horizontal scale should match it.

it didn't.

spacing between marks on my horizontal scale is 7 units and 6.35 on the game's vertical scale.

So I took the whole reticle I made, scaled it down to 6.35/7 =0.90714
so 90.714 % of its original size,

look back in : the horizontal and the game's scales now agree at 6.35.

now, back to Illustrator and photoshop to set it ingame, again... this is why a blueprint of the reticle would've been easier to mod : jwould've had just to divide the view..

keltos

[Hitman]

The main problem -I know because I have gone through that myself- you have is that you must first of all find a reliable measuring reference.

What I did was to pick a ship with a known legth (I picked a 100 metres one) and set up a mission with that ship at 90º AOB and 1000 metres distance. That allowed me to measure how many pixels 100 metres covered at 1000 metres distance, and using a simple formula (I think it was 1000=100/tanAngle), how many degrees that was. Once I knew how many pixels each degree was, I created my own reticle starting from that.

[keltos01]

The main problem -I know because I have gone through that myself- you have is that you must first of all find a reliable measuring reference.

What I did was to pick a ship with a known legth (I picked a 100 metres one) and set up a mission with that ship at 90º AOB and 1000 metres distance. That allowed me to measure how many pixels 100 metres covered at 1000 metres distance, and using a simple formula (I think it was 1000=100/tanAngle), how many degrees that was. Once I knew how many pixels each degree was, I created my own reticle starting from that.

That's pretty good work there ! It think I'm getting there..

keltos

[keltos01]

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3527/gettingtherecopie.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gettingtherecopie.jpg)
By keltos01 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/keltos01)

here you can see the first alpha channel, in red, where the reticle was too large, and in black the new one made to fit the hard coded degree scale visible in the periscope view.

btw I create the alpha channel while working with a 4096x4096 pixel dds, then scale it down to 1024x1024 so as not to lose details (the games' dds size)

keltos

[keltos01]

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9310/periscopemask1024copie.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periscopemask1024copie.jpg)
new dds based on hunter's mask

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9310/periscopemask1024copie.jpg (http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periscopemask1024copie.jpg)


alpha channel visible


keltos

[Hitman]

Looks good, but unfortunately your reticle is graded for the current scope field of view, were the german reticle is still visible. If you can't get rid of the old reticle, what is your plan B? Leave it there? Reduce FOV as I suggested?

[keltos01]

Looks good, but unfortunately your reticle is graded for the current scope field of view, were the german reticle is still visible. If you can't get rid of the old reticle, what is your plan B? Leave it there? Reduce FOV as I suggested?

Now that it is maybe done (untested) I would leave it at that.

But :

I would like to have two versions of this periscope mod, so players could choose :

option 1
the IJN periscope version 1.2 LF (large field) which of course would show the german scales till we find a way to get rid of them.

option 2
the IJN periscope version 1.2 RF (reduced field) with a bit reduced filed of view just enought so that you wouldn't see them, that would be yours to do based on the v 1.2 ? if you agree that is...

I would also need you to explain how to use it kindo like what you told me yesterday, especially since the vertical scale is in radians.



this way we would have the best of both worlds :)

version 1.2 is still a wip and reserved mostly for the Japanese Campaign Dev Team for now.

http://files.filefront.com/V+12+IJN+periscope+kaitesrar/;13447523;/fileinfo.html

what do you say Hitman ?

keltos

ps what about the scope's crosshair : can we at least remove that or is it hard coded too ? because on this scope there shouldn't be any..

[keltos01]

could it be this ? the PITA scales I mean ?



[G26 I52]
Name=Gradation (4,33)(10,228)(20,412)
Type=1031;Stat bmp array
ItemID=0x26070001
ParentID=0x26070000
Pos=0,0,66,678
Zone= 51 768 66 678 0 1 0x26070000 0.5 0 0x26070001 -0.5 0 0 0
Color=0xFFFFFFFF
Materials=1
Display=0;No stretch
Mat 0=data/menu/gui/Periscope.tga
Crop 0=0.631836,0.0703125,0.000976563,0.000976563
MatFlags=0x9
TexFmt=0x0
Drag=false
BmpState=1
NeedFocus=true
SelOne=false
IdGroup=0
StatesColors=0xFFFFFFFF, 0xFFFFFFFF, 0xFFFFFFFF, 0xFFFFFFFF
ToolTipText=2206

[G26 I53]
Name=Gradation Under
Type=1031;Stat bmp array
ItemID=0x26070005
ParentID=0x26070000
Pos=1,-651,66,1000
Zone= 53 117 66 1000 0 1 0x26070001 0.52 -0.96 0x26070005 -0.5 0 0 0
Color=0xFFFFFFFF
Materials=1
Display=2;Linear
Mat 0=data/menu/gui/Periscope.tga
Crop 0=0.631836,0.078125,0.0644531,0.0488281
MatFlags=0x9
TexFmt=0x0
Drag=false
BmpState=1
NeedFocus=true
SelOne=false
IdGroup=0
StatesColors=0xFFFFFFFF, 0xFFFFFFFF, 0xFFFFFFFF, 0xFFFFFFFF
ToolTipText=2206


?????

keltos

[keltos01]

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/2733/scopecable.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)

Thanks to the books I received from japan from Rubenandthejets, and his wife's courteous translation of the best picture book on IJN submarines I've seen so far, I've found three different angle views of the Type 88 periscope, which I am now in the process of making in 3D.

It should eventually replace the 3D model seen in the control room, and maybe the conning tower too.

keltos

[keltos01]

placing fine tune screws :

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2798/screwsd.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)

Keltos

[keltos01]

Type 88 periscope final :

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9616/type88periscope3d.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)

Keltos

[keltos01]

type 88 periscope in game on the Kaichu :


http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9964/type88scope.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=type88scope.jpg)

I have to fix that texture...

keltos

[keltos01]

Observation Periscope Type 88 for the Kaichu submarine :


in well :

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2980/peritype88.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=peritype88.jpg)


raised :

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3008/peritype88raised.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=peritype88raised.jpg)



the texture on the head might be a bit bland, but that can always be changed.

now that the texture actually works, I can move on. I'll try and improve it though. the view is monocular because, if you have ever used binoculars, all you see is one circle, not two.


keltos

[keltos01]

new dl link :

http://www.mediafire.com/file/jcz20in0mo5/V_1.3_IJN_periscope_kaiteL_compass.rar

darn FF :nope:

keltos

[keltos01]

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/8862/submarinei331ww2shotsna.jpg (http://img2.imageshack.us/my.php?image=submarinei331ww2shotsna.jpg)http://www.ww2shots.com/gallery/v/Weapons_+military+equipment/Navy/Japan/Imperial+Japanese+navy+Submarines+Of+WW2+-+Pics/?g2_page=2
2 photos of the salvage of the I-33, one taken from the air and one inside

[keltos01]

http://www2.arts.ubc.ca/bcar/no13/articles/alexander/article.pdf

article on IJN coatings including periscopes.


keltos

[keltos01]

Arclight just sent me the RC2 of the Type 88 periscope with nightcoating for the Observation scope.

it adds a historically correct filter/coating on the obs scope thus allowing for better night viewing.

will try later today :D

keltos

[keltos01]

regular, no coating observation scope at night :

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6712/regularnightscope.jpg (http://img513.imageshack.us/i/regularnightscope.jpg/)

coated lens observation scope op 15 :

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2869/scopenight15.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/scopenight15.jpg/)



zoom op 15 :

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5061/scopenight152.jpg (http://img204.imageshack.us/i/scopenight152.jpg/)

This rc2 of Arclight's Type 88 periscope coating is the kind I wanted :D

:yeah: great work Arclight ! now we see at night !

keltos

download link (implement on top of Jyunsen B mod) :

http://www.mediafire.com/file/z3nnw2mjiyz/Type 88 periscope color filter mod - opac 15 - Arclight.7z

[keltos01]

version 1.2 of mod :

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1959/periscopemask1024100cop.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=periscopemask1024100cop.jpg)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/i10uwdkqwgu/V_1.2_IJN_periscope_kaiteL_compass.rar

keltos

[keltos01]

When I consider how simple the solution was, I feel almost stupid for the time (years!) it has taken to figure it out :damn:

I guess I'll never get accepted at MENSA ... oh well :haha:

On to the topic:

THE PROBLEM:

As most modders know, the reticles seen in the periscopes and UZO in SH3 and SH4 (german uboats, not american ones) are hardcoded and can't be removed away. This has given more of a headache to the modders who wanted to change the look of the reticles, because the old ones would still show, no matter what. The only solution we found for this was to reduce the field of view, and make it smaller than 30º for the periscopes (Because the graticle leaves a space of approximately that size in the centre, where you only see the crosshair). But that of course meant losing field of view at the expense of historical reality, where periscopes had some 38º (In the game it is 40º)

THE SOLUTION:

Well, as you also know, when you zoom in with your mouse wheel, the hardcoded reticle does NOT change its size. It is scaled to display in the proper size of the default zoom you have, which is usually 1.5x

Soooooo :DL if you think that the high power zoom is way less than 30º (Normally 8º-9º) and will as such never show the reticle ....

the simple solution is to INVERT the order of the zoom levels in cameras.dat, making the high power (6x) the default one (First zoom entry in cameras.dat), and the low power (1.5x) the second one (Second zoom entry in cameras.dat) you get when moving the wheel mouse. That way, the reticle is scaled to the 6x default one, and actually is moved off the screen, leaving only the central crosshair :yeah: And you won't see it either when switching zoom to low power, because it doesn't rescale :woot:

That's it gentlemen :rock:

Hitman

[keltos01]

Following Hitman's instructions Peabody made a new camera view for the IJN scope type 88 :

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/948/c2ijnscope.jpg (http://img713.imageshack.us/i/c2ijnscope.jpg/)

Thanks to both of you guys !!!

At last, a type 88 perscope view !

keltos

[keltos01]

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/9197/ijnperiscopedata.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/i/ijnperiscopedata.jpg/)


http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_documents/gvt_reports/USNAVY/USNTMJ%20Reports/USNTMJ-200G-0695-0924%20Report%20S-01-7.pdf


So it seems the actual US periscope view with the azimuth might be mistaken !!!!

Keltos

[Hitman]

So it seems the actual US periscope view with the azimuth might be mistaken !!!!Yes it is indeed, we already discussed that some time ago.

The commander looked through the scope and when he called "mark" the assitant on the back of the scope readed the bearing from the azimuth circle, and the distance from the wiz-wheel. If you look at the design of the US scope you will notice that it was built purposedly for having a second person assiting while the captain was looking through it - the wiz-wheel is at the back of the scope!!

From the Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual, available at HNSA.org

204. RANGE - MARK: A phrase which when used by the Approach Officer during a periscope observation directs the Periscope Assistant to read the stadimeter or telemeter range and informs the Fire Control Party of the time of the range. When spoken by the Radar Operator it indicates that the radar is on the target and the range repeaters are reading correctly. It is usually paralleled by a buzzer and a mark light in the latter case.


and:

Approach officer Bearing ____ Mark! Down Scope Periscope Assistant On bearing _____ Mark! rings the bearing buzzer or if the bearing transmitter is out of order, announces the bearing. Lowers the periscope.

[keltos01]

bump