[WIP] Webster's Ship Draft & Manuvering Fix for v1.5

[Webster]

Webster's Ship Draft & Manuvering Fix for v1.5
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general info:

i am making this mod to eliminate the way ships in the game take off from a dry stop like drag racers or how they can zip backwards and forwards without
even hesitating for a second. the purpose of this mod is an attempt to get more realistic movements from all ships.

i am no expert on ships but anyone who owns a boat or who has spent any time around them knows there is no such thing as brakes on a boat or ship.
in the game they run around acting like sports cars or ninja motorcycles.

this mod is based on work done by Phillip Thompson for his SH3 Ships mod that has now been taken over by H.sie and i need to thank both of them for
the SH3 info that was used as a base starting point to figure out what settings were best to use in my mod.

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about the mod:

(manuvering fixes)

the first thing i did was to stop the lifeboats from zipping around like chickens with their heads cut off. they now move more slowly and dont move far,
unlike stock where they sometimes move the same speed as my sub is going lol.

i adjusted the way ships will react to the waves so they no longer bob around so much and should ride more stable in large waves like in real life.
im not saying its perfect but they now act like they have weight to them and cut into the waves a little more.

i made some adjustments to the way ships speed up and slow down so they will lose some speed when turning and should be harder to stop forward
movements quickly. they still have plenty of pep and havent been neutered but they will act more realistically as far as accelerating and stopping.


i altered the turning ability of all ships to better match what they were capable of doing in real life, some turn better some worse than in stock game.


(draft fixes)

i included the changes i made in my "WEBSTER's Ship Draft Fix for v1.5" that will fix incorrect ship draft heights for the following surface ships:

(American)

DD clemson, BB north carolina, BB iowa,
victory cargo, liberty cargo, troop transport

(japan)

CL naka, CA furutaka, CV hiryu, CV shokaku,
large composite merchant, small composite merchant

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i released the mod to get large scale testing, before i settle on a final version that gives the most realistic acting ships.


just because its in testing doesnt mean there is anything wrong with it, it works fine and is completely safe to use so go ahead and test it out and give it a good shakedown cruise as it were to find out what version is the most realistic.




Download http://hosted.filefront.com/WSDMF/ (http://hosted.filefront.com/WSDMF/)




i will use your feed back to determine the best overall settings for each ship class so i can fine tune the mod to have the most realistic results possible for each ship class.


but that means i need your help, i need information from players about how realistic looking each version is for each ship class.
which version you like the best and why.


i have made 3 different versions for you to try out and compare, if you can find the time please give me your opinions and observations of each ship class. (small craft, DD, CL, CA, CVE, CV, BB, and merchants)



v1 is where i only made small changes

v2 is where i made medium sized changes

v3 is where i made the biggest changes



i may need to use a blend of more than one version but the reports i get from you will tell me what i need to do.


any manuvering problems you find the ships are having, please give me as much detail about the ship class, the curcumstances, and sea conditions and such so i can figure out the solution.


especially watch ships in bad weather heavy seas conditions and evasive manuvers and remember i changed everything from life rafts to battleships so watch for what all ships are doing.


evaluate ships by class, if one BB looks a certain way then all the rest will be about the same so you dont need to check all of them.


same thing with american or german side, each class of ship is what you compare so a german DD will act about the same as a japanese DD because acceleration and stopping are whats being changed not the speed of individual ships.


if you only play the german side then let me know about how those ships act. (i did every ship in the stock game)


you can PM me or post it, but please report what you find even if its minor. and if used with other mods then you need to install this mod last.


subs are not part of this mod at all. i made no changes to them so they arent worth noting.

[keltos01]

very nice idea Webster, thinking oustside the box as always I see ! :yeah:

keltos

ps i'll try it from home sometimes this week

[Rockin Robbins]

Yes, the more people working on the ship physics part of the game the better, because this is one area that isn't talked about much, but the floating top fuel dragsters really have a negative impact on our game. There is no way, for instance, that shooting a perfect 90º torpedo track angle shot from 1200 yards that the sleeping DD could get underway in time to avoid your shot. It happens in the game routinely. (workaround, shoot at the bow)

I'm going on vacation through Sunday to the Orange Blossom Special Star Party near Dade City Florida, where I will again follow my recent procedure of not taking my own telescope, looking through everyone else's instead (that's MUCH more fun and I actually learn something:03:), spreading the gospel of Omege Centauri Psychosis (you see with your brain, not through your eyes) and plugging my huge, expensive 35mm Panoptic eyepiece into inappropriately inexpensive and small telescopes (you should see the owner's eyes light up when they find out how good their scope REALLY is). Hey, I'm easily amused.:cool:

During one star party ten years ago a friend and I cooked up a fake eyepiece, which was really a slide viewer with a slide of the horsehead nebula in it. Now that sucker is so dim that unless you point at it with a 20" telescope, you're not going to see it. We would walk up to a 6" scope and ask to use it for a second to try out a new eyepiece we bought. Cliff would plug in the Horsehead Eyepiece and say "Hmmmph. Looks pretty good Steve. Check this out. I'd say," Hey, I've never seen the horsehead in a 6" scope. It's pretty clear here." By this time the poor scope owner is having seizures wanting to see. He can't believe his eyes when he steps up to the eyepiece (seeing the horsehead nebula is the amateur astronomer's version of sinking the Yamato IF there were only one Yamato:shifty:) and we let him marvel for several minutes before revealing our little trick. Of course, then he says, "Joe has an 8" scope, let's do this thing on him!" So throughout the night we accumulated a group of followers eager to snag the next victim. This is especially fun to do on a cloudy night...

Enough of that! I'll be glad to test this thing after I return. Good show WEBSTER!

[Wilcke]

Webster much needed! I will give it a whirl!

RR, cruel man! Have fun in Dade.

[Webster]

I'm going on vacation through Sunday to the Orange Blossom Special Star Party near Dade City Florida, where I will again follow my recent procedure of not taking my own telescope, looking through everyone else's instead (that's MUCH more fun and I actually learn something:03:), spreading the gospel of Omege Centauri Psychosis (you see with your brain, not through your eyes) and plugging my huge, expensive 35mm Panoptic eyepiece into inappropriately inexpensive and small telescopes (you should see the owner's eyes light up when they find out how good their scope REALLY is). Hey, I'm easily amused.:cool:

Enough of that! I'll be glad to test this thing after I return. Good show WEBSTER!


great, your the kind of tester i need because you have a better understanding than the average member as far as what looks realistic time and speed wise.

i need people with that kind of knowledge to give this mod a test drive.



as for star gazing, well my brother is a fellow star party member here in laplace,La. and he actually makes a dew buster and sells them.
(not sure if he gives party members any discounts)

this is the link if your interested: http://www.dewbuster.com/

subsimers going huh dew what? :rotfl:

[Webster]

all three versions are now completed and they are jsgme ready and available for downloading

[Webster]

has anyone formed any opinions yet as to which version feels more realistic?

[Wilcke]

has anyone formed any opinions yet as to which version feels more realistic? Man, my schedule is packed and the midnight oil is running low, sorry. Will try sometime this week.

[Webster]

has anyone formed any opinions yet as to which version feels more realistic? Man, my schedule is packed and the midnight oil is running low, sorry. Will try sometime this week.

there is no rush i was just curious since there were several downloads yet i recieved no comments about it. i guess people are just still forming opinions.

[Task Force]

Ill dl it, havent messed with sh4 in a while though.:up:

[Munchausen]

:hmmm: I'd really like to use this but, unless I miss my guess, you can't use it if you play on line and other players (especially the host) haven't installed it too.

[Webster]

:hmmm: I'd really like to use this but, unless I miss my guess, you can't use it if you play on line and other players (especially the host) haven't installed it too.

well im still trying to see what are the best overall settings for it to be as realistic as possible so you'll have to find the version you like the best.

i got a report from someone on ubi forums that my game fixes patch worked great on their servers for a week but ubi servers went down (i guess for updates) and when it came back up the fixes were disabled when playing online.

i always thought you couldnt use any game mod playing online but i guess it depends on whats modded. all i can say is try it and see.

[cgjimeneza]

what is your base data structure

do you think there will be a problem in enabling after TMOv163 + RSRDv420?

will try after I finish my mandatory monthly patrol

[Webster]

what is your base data structure

do you think there will be a problem in enabling after TMOv163 + RSRDv420?

will try after I finish my mandatory monthly patrol

well it would be best to use this mod in the stock game for testing but as for other mods, this mod effects the sim files so im sure tmo and rfb and such make changes to those files as well so i think this would have conflicts with those mods. by overwritting them you could be undoing some adjustments they made for other things but it wont ctd or anything it will maybe just "feel" a little different. so always make sure my mod is the last to install so you will get accurate test results.

some early reports i am getting is that v3 is the most popular so far and just as it would be in real life ships will lose speed when turning or doing evasive manuvers. frequent changes in speeds results from this so you will notice that the further away you are when firing the more likely the ship will change speed or course and you will have a greater chance of missing.

once i get a handle on which is the most realistic version, then i can make versions that are compatable with the big mods too.

[Rockin Robbins]

Sorry about the delay. I begin testing v3 with an essentially stock game (with TMOkeys, some intro music and video mods and some missions) tonight. I'll let you know when I find a static DD if I can poke him with a Mark 14 in the daytime from 1500 yards. It should be possible in real life, so that's my yardstick. Stand by for info and video. First I have to find him. Hehehehe. Started a career in 1944 to do so.

Here's my setup:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/WebstersShipDraftManeuveringFixSetu.jpg

[cgjimeneza]

Sorry about the delay. I begin testing v3 with an essentially stock game (with TMOkeys, some intro music and video mods and some missions) tonight. I'll let you know when I find a static DD if I can poke him with a Mark 14 in the daytime from 1500 yards. It should be possible in real life, so that's my yardstick. Stand by for info and video. First I have to find him. Hehehehe. Started a career in 1944 to do so.

Here's my setup:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/WebstersShipDraftManeuveringFixSetu.jpg

they still had DD´s left LOL

[Webster]

well version 3 has over 50 downloads so it appears to be the favored choice for everyone to test.

its just so quiet, i have only had one or two comments and thats all the feedback i have gotten so far.

if your happy with it like it is let me know.

if you have no idea what is realistic or not but it looks good to you then please let me know that as well.

if you notice anything strange like too many ships just sitting around not moving let me know.

it hasnt been that long but i was hoping to get more feedback than i have so far.

im getting ready to make a version 4 using some of the things i have seen so far in my own tests but without feedback its tough to know what to change.

[Rockin Robbins]

Sorry, Murphy's law is working overtime and I've only engaged single ships so far. Wouldn't you know it?:D

[Webster]

Sorry, Murphy's law is working overtime and I've only engaged single ships so far. Wouldn't you know it?:D

try playing some single missions, then your sure to have action and you'll see more ships


i posted 3 small little drag strip like battleship test missions i was using to compare starting and stopping speeds and zig zag slowing speeds.

i posted them because i thought someone might need a way to help compare the different mod versions.

you can find it at the same link as the mods, it will work good to show the differences in the 3 mod versions i made.

[lothos]

I've been using version 2 and a friend tested as well and definitely liked the addition of inertia to the ships. The only problem I've seen so far had been one DD type sitting on top of the water.

[Webster]

I've been using version 2 and a friend tested as well and definitely liked the addition of inertia to the ships. The only problem I've seen so far had been one DD type sitting on top of the water.


do you mean sitting stationary? which type was it what class?

was he listening for you as they often do to mark your position and others come in to drop DC or do you mean he just stayed there forever?

[Munchausen]

Will this mod be combined with:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=149001#post1060165

[Webster]

Will this mod be combined with:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=149001#post1060165

its all from the same mod, those are numbers from the free drifting tests of v3 of this mod. i had the kongo at speed stop its engines and recorded how fast she slowed without any engines.

the numbers i was using are from v3 i put up for download and im changing a few numbers around to see what happens so these were 3 new versions based on v3 of the mod.

im not getting a lot of feedback from people but i am making progress just the same.

i pretty much decided v3 is the one closest to real acceleration i can get and im working on other peramiters now.

im working on things im learning through my own testing and a little bit of imput and observations from others.

[lothos]

I've been using version 2 and a friend tested as well and definitely liked the addition of inertia to the ships. The only problem I've seen so far had been one DD type sitting on top of the water.

do you mean sitting stationary? which type was it what class?

was he listening for you as they often do to mark your position and others come in to drop DC or do you mean he just stayed there forever?

driving around on the surface of the water. similar to that bug someone had with the Uboat and the environment mod.

[Webster]

driving around on the surface of the water. similar to that bug someone had with the Uboat and the environment mod.

that does mean anything to me, the environmental mods had dozens and dozens of issues so i have no idea what your talking about. can you explain it better?

[lothos]

driving around on the surface of the water. similar to that bug someone had with the Uboat and the environment mod.
that does mean anything to me, the environmental mods had dozens and dozens of issues so i have no idea what your talking about. can you explain it better?

i'll take a screenshot if I get it again. I wanna make sure its specific to your mod and not a conflict due to what I've chosen to run :)

[Rockin Robbins]

i pretty much decided v3 is the one closest to real acceleration i can get and im working on other peramiters now.

im working on things im learning through my own testing and a little bit of imput and observations from others.
I agree, v3 is quite good actually. Suddenly lots of stuff becomes possible. Dragsters made terrible targets!:har:

So subject to some of that real life data making it even slower, v3 is lookin' good!

Webster, most people think environmental mods just make the game look pretty and don't realize the often bad effects they can have on gameplay. That is why the trend in supermods is to severely edit included environmental mods and include them as part of the supermod. It's a double bind problem. If you don't include the environmental mods, people will install them over the top of your supermod, breaking it. If you disassemble and use the parts of the environmental mod that won't absolutely break anything, you're left with an environmental mod maker whose not especially happy, game players who notice what isn't in there, and a game that is STILL affected by the eyecandy. That's why TMO for a long time said that installing LBO or later environmental stuff would harm TMO.

[Munchausen]

im not getting a lot of feedback from people but i am making progress just the same.

:oops: Sorry 'bout that. Once you've settled on a version, I'll pass it along to the guys I sail with in multiplayer. It shouldn't take very long for us to determine if it works better than default. (The hard part is coordinating the DL and installation ... sometimes it's difficult getting even two players on the same page.)

[Webster]

im not getting a lot of feedback from people but i am making progress just the same.

:oops: Sorry 'bout that. Once you've settled on a version, I'll pass it along to the guys I sail with in multiplayer. It shouldn't take very long for us to determine if it works better than default. (The hard part is coordinating the DL and installation ... sometimes it's difficult getting even two players on the same page.)


well i was naive and thought i would get a large test group going to get wider responses and faster feedback to speed up the process but there are no shortcuts in modding lol.

the project is still moving along and v3 is the most favored but i am going farther than those settings so it could take a few weeks to work out the kinks. untill then v3 will be the closest you can get to reality for now. one thing you will see right away is ships are much harder to hit because speeds are always fluctuating just like in real life. the days of 3000m shots are over with these settings, 2000m is very spotty so you want to be 1000m or less and also need to not be spotted. if you are detected and they start evasive manuvers you may as well save your fish unless your within 1000m.

[peewee]

[quote=Rockin Robbins]Yes, the more people working on the ship physics part of the game the better, because this is one area that isn't talked about much, but the floating top fuel dragsters really have a negative impact on our game. There is no way, for instance, that shooting a perfect 90º torpedo track angle shot from 1200 yards that the sleeping DD could get underway in time to avoid your shot. It happens in the game routinely. (workaround, shoot at the bow)

quote]

I fire one straight at them to get them moving and a second one 5 degrees off in the direction they are pointing......they really go down fast when they are hit doing 20 knots.....


Oh and I have just been bought a telescope for my birthday...........but its too damn cold to take outside and use !!!!

[Munchausen]

Oh and I have just been bought a telescope for my birthday...........but its too damn cold to take outside and use !!!!

:hmmm: Kirk was from Iowa.

[lothos]

I must say after switching back and forth a few times between v2 and v3 I prefer v2. Half of my testing down piloting the Iowa though so it is definately effected by the mod alot.

[Webster]

I must say after switching back and forth a few times between v2 and v3 I prefer v2. Half of my testing down piloting the Iowa though so it is definately effected by the mod alot.

this is very helpfull info, you are only the second person to favor version 2.

v3 has over 60 downloads and v1 &v2 have about 25 each so i was looking at that as an indicator of preferability so i guess i shouldnt use downloads as an indicator.

you should test the ships you know best because thats the best way to tell.

those little missions i made were just thrown together quickly to show how to get a good look at it.

[lothos]

I must say after switching back and forth a few times between v2 and v3 I prefer v2. Half of my testing down piloting the Iowa though so it is definately effected by the mod alot.
this is very helpfull info, you are only the second person to favor version 2.

v3 has over 60 downloads and v1 &v2 have about 25 each so i was looking at that as an indicator of preferability so i guess i shouldnt use downloads as an indicator.

you should test the ships you know best because thats the best way to tell.

those little missions i made were just thrown together quickly to show how to get a good look at it.

well, it comes down to a decision between what feels realistic and what feels playable. v3 for instance makes playing the heavier ships like the Ohio SSBN and the Iowa alot more sluggish. The impact of it on the Gar though is negligible. The other issue with enemy ships is to get the benefit placed upon the DD's impacts the larger ships a bit too much almost as if the scale of tonnage of the ships is not quite accurate.

[Webster]

well, it comes down to a decision between what feels realistic and what feels playable. v3 for instance makes playing the heavier ships like the Ohio SSBN and the Iowa alot more sluggish. The impact of it on the Gar though is negligible. The other issue with enemy ships is to get the benefit placed upon the DD's impacts the larger ships a bit too much almost as if the scale of tonnage of the ships is not quite accurate.

subs are not touched at all by my mod so any perceved change there is imagined. as for using playable ships to compare the settings its fouled up because playable ships are not real ships and they work totally different in the game than anything else.

the DD's have like 80,000 hp and the BB's have like 150,000 hp (not exact numbers just guestimates) so you can see why the small DD's are so fast in the game.

they have half the hp of BB and only 10% of the mass. even thou the DD are the most obvious dragsters, light cruisers arent far behind, and all ships move to quickly but arent as obvious right off.

the game engine as setup for stock, doesnt seem to be able to replicate the inertia factor of moving a ship to speed.

[mheil]

Webster, Your MOD sounds like just thing! I'm going to try V3. Unfortunately, it will be a while before I get it going - have to complete the mission I'm on and that may be awhile - Maybe I'll load it up and try a quick mission. You said you made a couple to test. Thanks!

[MajorMagee]

I just saw this thread. Sounds like a great idea, but the link goes nowhere. Did you pull the Beta?

[Webster]

I just saw this thread. Sounds like a great idea, but the link goes nowhere. Did you pull the Beta?

yes, stay tuned to the forum lists.

some final testing and i will be releasing the mod tonight or tomorrow :yeah:

[Webster]

Webster's Ship Draft & Manuvering Fix for v1.5 has now been released.



i wish to thank everyone involved in helping test the 3 beta versions of this mod.


link to the mod: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=149270