BBC - Nuclear subs 'collide in ocean'

[BobbyZero]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7892294.stm

I still don't understand how that could happen...with sonars and all, somehow they managed to collide?!

[Letum]

To war with the French!
1066 shall never be forgotten. Bring on Waterloo. :arrgh!:

[Jimbuna]

If they were both in silent/stealth mode it's possible they never even knew of each others presence in the vicinity.

[Takeda Shingen]

If they are close enough to collide, they would be close enough to hear each other's plant noise.

[OneToughHerring]

Seamen Balls and Balzac were given their turn at the helms of their respective submarines. :03:

Ok enough of the funny stuff.

[Platapus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7892294.stm

I still don't understand how that could happen...with sonars and all, somehow they managed to collide?!


We have to realize that the construction and operation of the sub along with the procedures followed by the well trained crew are all designed to keep their sub NOT being detected by sonar and other sensors.

If either of the subs was being detected on sonar or other sensors, I think there would be bigger trouble. :D

Both the English and the French are pretty good at hiding their subs. In this case a little too big.

It is a tragic accident when two really stealthy subs try to occupy the same part of the water at the same time. :nope:

[Kapt Z]

ouch.

[Torplexed]

First two satellites collide, now it's two submarines. Insurance rates are gonna skyrocket.:D

[longam]

I guess now they need to put lookouts back out on deck. :hmm2:

[A Very Super Market]

Myesss.... thissss issssn't an excussssse to attack the French at all.... your theoriesssss are coooooreeeeect......
http://www.z3btr0n.com/images/blogger/cobra_commander.jpg

[goldorak]

If they were both in silent/stealth mode it's possible they never even knew of each others presence in the vicinity.


I find that very difficult to believe.

[Oberon]

Hmmm
The French sub took sonar dome damage which indicates a bow collision, it's possible that one of them came up through the layer and met the other.
The chances of two missile boats colliding are pretty astronomical, if it was an SSN and an SSBN then I'd say it's the old 'got too close while tracking' story, but two boomers? Boomers don't trial, well, they're not exactly designed for it.
Strange, but true, wrong place wrong time I guess :damn:

[Letum]

if it was an SSN and an SSBN then I'd say it's the old 'got too close while tracking' story, but two boomers? Boomers don't trial, well, they're not exactly designed for it.

I bet they still practice for it tho.

[Jimbuna]

If they were both in silent/stealth mode it's possible they never even knew of each others presence in the vicinity.


I find that very difficult to believe.

The real drama will unfold if/when an official explanation is ever released.

[Sub146]

Perhaps they were acting out the part from dasboot where they nearly collided with thompson in high seas. :ping:

[antikristuseke]

If they were both in silent/stealth mode it's possible they never even knew of each others presence in the vicinity.


I find that very difficult to believe.

The real drama will unfold if/when an official explanation is ever released.

The official version:
"there was no collison, there were no submarines in that sector of sea, Steed is not among us."

[Rhodes]

:haha: What is the probability of two nuclear subs collide in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean? And one being english and the other french???:06: :06: :haha:

[Jimbuna]

:haha: What is the probability of two nuclear subs collide in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean? And one being english and the other french???:06: :06: :haha:

A lot less than they were prior to the collision :DL

@antikristuseke....Precisely :up:

[Weiss Pinguin]

:haha: What is the probability of two nuclear subs collide in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean? And one being english and the other french???:06: :06: :haha:

A lot less than they were prior to the collision :DL
:rotfl:

Regardless of how it happened, I'm sure this'll leave a big black mark in both skippers' books.

[goldorak]

:haha: What is the probability of two nuclear subs collide in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean? And one being english and the other french???:06: :06: :haha:

From the bbc article :


'Large ocean'

Lib Dem shadow defence spokesman


Nuclear engineer John Large told the BBC that navies often used the same "nesting grounds".

"Both navies want quiet areas, deep areas, roughly the same distance from their home ports. So you find these station grounds have got quite a few submarines, not only French and Royal Navy but also from Russia and the United States."


:o c'mon the ocean is big and all these guys drive the subs to same place ?
Man it must be more crowed down there than a traffic jam on the champs elysees on a weekend. :haha:

[Weiss Pinguin]

Well, in case of a nuclear attack at least they'll know where to send the fast attacks :O:

[Oberon]

if it was an SSN and an SSBN then I'd say it's the old 'got too close while tracking' story, but two boomers? Boomers don't trial, well, they're not exactly designed for it.

I bet they still practice for it tho.

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised, but considering how valuable an asset an SSBN is, you'd have thought they'd be more concerned with hiding it than having it trail someone. If either boat was trailing then that would go a long way to explaining how this happened.

Kinda reminds me of the DVD chapter on Das Boot. "In position...More or less."

[Frame57]

If one of these boats were a fast attack it would be obvious what happened but because they are SSBN's. Very very quiet ones I might add, then an accidental collision is viable.

[Oberon]

If one of these boats were a fast attack it would be obvious what happened but because they are SSBN's. Very very quiet ones I might add, then an accidental collision is viable.

Agreed, it's a one in a million occurance, but possible. Particularly if sonar conditions were bad.

[Letum]

if it was an SSN and an SSBN then I'd say it's the old 'got too close while tracking' story, but two boomers? Boomers don't trial, well, they're not exactly designed for it.
I bet they still practice for it tho.
Oh, I wouldn't be surprised, but considering how valuable an asset an SSBN is, you'd have thought they'd be more concerned with hiding it than having it trail someone. If either boat was trailing then that would go a long way to explaining how this happened.

Kinda reminds me of the DVD chapter on Das Boot. "In position...More or less."

The BBC is now reporting that they where on unrelated operations.

[Oberon]

if it was an SSN and an SSBN then I'd say it's the old 'got too close while tracking' story, but two boomers? Boomers don't trial, well, they're not exactly designed for it.
I bet they still practice for it tho.
Oh, I wouldn't be surprised, but considering how valuable an asset an SSBN is, you'd have thought they'd be more concerned with hiding it than having it trail someone. If either boat was trailing then that would go a long way to explaining how this happened.

Kinda reminds me of the DVD chapter on Das Boot. "In position...More or less."

The BBC is now reporting that they where on unrelated operations.

A one in a million chance then. Either that or we just declared war on France again :hmmm:

[Letum]

if it was an SSN and an SSBN then I'd say it's the old 'got too close while tracking' story, but two boomers? Boomers don't trial, well, they're not exactly designed for it.
I bet they still practice for it tho.
Oh, I wouldn't be surprised, but considering how valuable an asset an SSBN is, you'd have thought they'd be more concerned with hiding it than having it trail someone. If either boat was trailing then that would go a long way to explaining how this happened.

Kinda reminds me of the DVD chapter on Das Boot. "In position...More or less."
The BBC is now reporting that they where on unrelated operations.
A one in a million chance then. Either that or we just declared war on France again :hmmm:

I dunno about one in a million.
I would expect the best hiding places to be popular, even in a global game of hide and seek.

[Jimbuna]

The first photograph of the incident to be released to the public/media

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/601/2008worldsubmarineracinrq1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Rhodes]

Jimbuna, as always, my reaction to your post is this: :har: :har: :har: :har: :har: :har: :har: :har: :har:

[Skybird]

A wild guess:

maybe there were two subs of two nations, and both took interest in a third variable in their vicinity that both of them detected. I know that SSBNs are not the first choice for recce jobs since they are no attack boats, but maybe both saw themselves in a situation that left them no choice than to investigate whatever it was that caught their attention. It could have been something potentially dangerous or unknown that they could could not judge whether or not it was a threat, or something that appeared so harmless that they thought they could afford to be curious beside running their SSBN business. So both were investigating the same "variable" with one location in the ocean, and ooops.

The hypothesis that two SSBNs collide with each other in the middle of the ocean at great depth and just by chance, includes a little bit too much of random chance indeed, for my taste.

But eventually they heared each other, and manouvered to avoid or to identify the other. Just that they ran into each other blind and deaf and not knowing that something was out there - this I have a hard time to believe.

[bookworm_020]

:haha: What is the probability of two nuclear subs collide in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean? And one being english and the other french???:06: :06: :haha:
From the bbc article :


'Large ocean'

Lib Dem shadow defence spokesman


Nuclear engineer John Large told the BBC that navies often used the same "nesting grounds".

"Both navies want quiet areas, deep areas, roughly the same distance from their home ports. So you find these station grounds have got quite a few submarines, not only French and Royal Navy but also from Russia and the United States."

:o c'mon the ocean is big and all these guys drive the subs to same place ?
Man it must be more crowed down there than a traffic jam on the champs elysees on a weekend. :haha:

Time to set up a kebab stand and wine outlet in the area!:D

Could you imagine the skippers trying work out who is at fault, swapping insurance details?:hmmm:

[badhat17]

The hardest part about playing chicken is knowing when to flinch.

[Jimbuna]

Time to set up a kebab stand and wine outlet in the area!:D

Could you imagine the skippers trying work out who is at fault, swapping insurance details?:hmmm:

Quite :DL

[Skybird]

But wouldn't insurances demand them to call a traffic cop in a rubber boat to write down the details at the scene of the accident? :DL

[goldorak]

But wouldn't insurances demand them to call a traffic cop in a rubber boat to write down the details at the scene of the accident? :DL

I imagine this is what the french captain said after the collision :

http://www.objectifterre.org/turquie/images/haddock_bachi-bouzouk.gif :har:

[Digital_Trucker]

The hypothesis that two SSBNs collide with each other in the middle of the ocean at great depth and just by chance, includes a little bit too much of random chance indeed, for my taste.

But eventually they heared each other, and manouvered to avoid or to identify the other. Just that they ran into each other blind and deaf and not knowing that something was out there - this I have a hard time to believe.

Almost as hard to believe as two satellites in orbit around the Earth running into each other, eh?:hmmm:

[Oberon]

Had to fight a VERY strong urge to go Hulk and tear up the front page of the Independent today. Dammit, why does everyone start crapping their pants whenever a nuclear missile boat bumps into something. The way they were carrying on, you'd think it was K-219! :nope:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/so-admiral-what-have-you-got-to-say-about-the-nuclear-submarine-crash-1623787.html

:nope: :nope: :nope: :nope: :nope: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn:

However, Skybird has a point, it could be they picked up something nearby, both went to investigate and collided. Still, at least both boats are alright. :up:

[Skybird]

The hypothesis that two SSBNs collide with each other in the middle of the ocean at great depth and just by chance, includes a little bit too much of random chance indeed, for my taste.

But eventually they heared each other, and manouvered to avoid or to identify the other. Just that they ran into each other blind and deaf and not knowing that something was out there - this I have a hard time to believe.

Almost as hard to believe as two satellites in orbit around the Earth running into each other, eh?:hmmm:
If you think nobody on earth noted that they were approaching each other, you probably are wrong. My theory would be that each side tried to figure what the other would do, and decisions and/or manouvers were ordered that unfortunately neutralised each other.

Earth controls tracks every object of at least 10 cm in diameter. Currently there are around 600.000 such objects in orbits around earth, most of them debris and dead satellites, some active satellities. with an unquantified numbers of even smaller objects, the likelihood for space collisions is not as small as the wide public prematurely may assume. If it were like that, there would be no need to keep all those many objects ander tight tracking control. And the ISS already has repeatedly manouvered to avoid collisions until today. Same probably is true for the majority of active satellites as well.

[goldorak]

Had to fight a VERY strong urge to go Hulk and tear up the front page of the Independent today. Dammit, why does everyone start crapping their pants whenever a nuclear missile boat bumps into something. The way they were carrying on, you'd think it was K-219! :nope:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/so-admiral-what-have-you-got-to-say-about-the-nuclear-submarine-crash-1623787.html

:nope: :nope: :nope: :nope: :nope: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn:

However, Skybird has a point, it could be they picked up something nearby, both went to investigate and collided. Still, at least both boats are alright. :up:

I read an article today on repubblica (italian newspaper), we don't even have a nuclear navy and reading the article you'd think that atomic destruction was upon us as a consequence of this little incident. :haha:
There is nothing to say, journalists just like to blow facts out of proportion. :shifty:

[Digital_Trucker]

The hypothesis that two SSBNs collide with each other in the middle of the ocean at great depth and just by chance, includes a little bit too much of random chance indeed, for my taste.

But eventually they heared each other, and manouvered to avoid or to identify the other. Just that they ran into each other blind and deaf and not knowing that something was out there - this I have a hard time to believe.
Almost as hard to believe as two satellites in orbit around the Earth running into each other, eh?:hmmm: If you think nobody on earth noted that they were approaching each other, you probably are wrong. My theory would be that each side tried to figure what the other would do, and decisions and/or manouvers were ordered that unfortunately neutralised each other.

Earth controls tracks every object of at least 10 cm in diameter. Currently there are around 600.000 such objects in orbits around earth, most of them debris and dead satellites, some active satellities. with an unquantified numbers of even smaller objects, the likelihood for space collisions is not as small as the wide public prematurely may assume. If it were like that, there would be no need to keep all those many objects ander tight tracking control. And the ISS already has repeatedly manouvered to avoid collisions until today. Same probably is true for the majority of active satellites as well.
I'd be interested in knowing where you got that 600,000 figure from. Either Air Force Space Command doesn't know what's up there or there has been a HUGE increase in the number of objects of that size in space in the last year.

Maybe you were reading this article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_debris
) and got 1cm confused with 10cm?


According to this article ( http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Faster_Than_A_Speeding_Bullet_Why_We_Track_The_Tra sh_999.html ) there are only 17,000 man-made space objects within the 60- to 20,000-mile band above the Earth.

From the article :

If it sounds like there is a huge layer of material orbiting around the Earth, requiring launching craft to dodge and scurry around them, this is not the case. "Only a small amount of debris exists where the shuttle orbits, and the likelihood of a 'significant collision' between a piece of debris and the shuttle is extremely remote," Mr. Wood said.
Even though the numbers cited here sound rather large, in the 60- to 20,000-mile band in which the SSN tracks, there are usually only about three or four objects in an area roughly equal in size to the airspace of the continental United States.


So, maybe the odds aren't so great that two things in a vast area might accidentally collide with each other. Seriously, though, you don't believe that human beings could be unobservant enough to allow these collisions to occur without prior knowledge of the other? Human beings make more errors than you give them credit for.

[Skybird]

I'm refering to a guy speaking for European Space Agency ESA who mentioned that 10 cm/600.000 numbers, and in a longer radio report on the issue. It's exactly the same numbers that were reported on at least two major TV news that I remember mentioning it in the past 2-3 days due to the space collision.

[Digital_Trucker]

I'm refering to a guy speaking for European Space Agency ESA who mentioned that 10 cm/600.000 numbers, and in a longer radio report on the issue. It's exactly the same numbers that were reported on at least two major TV news that I remember mentioning it in the past 2-3 days due to the space collision.
Well, it's estimated that there are 600,000 objects in space, but just not 600,000 10cm or larger objects. Guess the "journalists" read the numbers wrong, too. That would be a first, wouldn't it, TV and radio getting something wrong:D


As far as the logic behind the subs operating in the same areas, that would make sense (and make the odds of them accidentally running into each other a bit higher).

Edit for SB : Here's another article that gives you an idea how possible it was that the two satellites collided before anyone realized it might happen http://www.space.com/news/090217-satelllite-crash-future.html

[Rhodes]

But wouldn't insurances demand them to call a traffic cop in a rubber boat to write down the details at the scene of the accident? :DL

I imagine this is what the french captain said after the collision :

http://www.objectifterre.org/turquie/images/haddock_bachi-bouzouk.gif :har:

And after, this:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/6077/scan0003yu7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/scan0003yu7.jpg/1/w1035.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img291/scan0003yu7.jpg/1/)

:haha: :haha: :haha:

[Terror_666]

What I think happened is both subs were given a overlapping patrol areas, both skippers looked for the best hidey-hole they could find, then one hears the other or they hear each other and since there mission is basically "Don't get found" they both go quite and vanish from sonar, they drift and then all of a sudden BANG they drift into each other.

As for objects in space; you have a large amount of objects traveling at great speed in all kinds of directions in orbit. You also have stuff ie meteors coming down regularly. well lets put it this way I am surprised it took so long for something to collide.

[Blood_splat]

Quote:
'Large ocean'

Lib Dem shadow defence spokesman


Nuclear engineer John Large told the BBC that navies often used the same "nesting grounds".




Each year all the nuclear submarines return to their nesting grounds to give birth.:O:

[Capt.Warner]

I dont understand how two submarines collide in the WHOLE ocean:o.It would be kind of hard to think about two subs colliding and you got all that room to manuever around.I just cant put me finger on it lol.
See Ye on the High Seas,
Capt.Warner:arrgh!: