[TEC] Make AI-Uboats attack Convois, via Radio

[urfisch]

Ive been gambling with this topic since years...and now there seems some kind of idea, that might make the ai-boats behave as ai-wolfpacks!

theres another thread on that (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146905) (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146905%29...but) but i want to ask the whole community about the following tec-question. where might the behavior of "called airstrikes" be stored?

i mean the dependence of:

- sending radio message "contact report"
- airplanes are send to your position, if youre "near" a german airfield

where could this be coded? i looked through the "cfgs" and the "dats"...nothing. now i came across some topics in other forums, where the "simdata.dll" is defined as the main controlling unit for this game. does anyone agree on that?

but for me its a bunch of hyroglyphs...i have no idea how to find the strings, that might be responseable for the airstrikes. but if one of you finds them, we could make some new "air-units" - uboats! to get an overview how this idea works, take look into the other thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146905)

thx a lot in advance!

:up:

[bigboywooly]

Airstrike cfg in the Cfg folder governs the strike rates
How often etc

[AirStrikeSettings]
; AirStrike Creation Parameters
; Airstrike Session:
; 1. Compute airbases in range according to their aircraft maximum ranges
; 2. Compute air coverage factors on allies/axis/neutral on the target zone
; 3. Compute airstrike probability from each base
; 3.1 check number of aircraft that can strike at that range and conditions, and compute a coverage factor based on the range of each aircraft type
; and detection area around submarine ( 10 km radius )
; 3.2 multiply coverage factor for the target area with :
; - current airstrike probability againt that side
; - nigft factor ( if necessary )
; - airbase competence
; - close to airbase factor
; 3.3 check probability for airstrike
; 3.4 add more aircraft probabilistically for a large target


Maximum Aircraft Range=2000 ;[>0] in kilometers
Poor Airbase Modifier=0.2 ;[>0] Modifier for poor airbase (carrier) rating
Novice Airbase Modifier=0.6 ;[>0] Modifier for novice airbase (carrier) rating
Competent Airbase Modifier=1.4 ;[>0] Modifier for competent airbase (carrier) rating
Veteran Airbase Modifier=2.4 ;[>0] Modifier for veteran airbase (carrier) rating
Elite Airbase Modifier=3.0 ;[>0] Modifier for elite airbase (carrier) rating
Night Modifier=0.2 ;[>0] Modifier on strike probability at night
Default Air Strike Probability=35 ;[>0] Default probability to send an airstrike from a airbase (carrier)
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Messages Sent=25 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a radio message sent
Friendly Air Strike Probability Increase on Contact Report Sent=50 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on a contact message sent
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=40 ;[>0] Increase over the default probability on player detection
Atenuation Factor=10 ;[>0] decrease from an increased probability to default one on each air session
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=20 ;[>0] steps between air fighting sessions, 10*Logic Interval(90sec)

But there is probably a trigger somewhere too

[urfisch]

yep, and this trigger is needed to modify the airbases with our aiboats...i think?! i also do not know, how the aiboats are lead to your position. there must be given some pararmeters for the planes, which are created by the trigger (your radio message "contact report" or similar.

[A6Intruder]

yep, and this trigger is needed to modify the airbases with our aiboats...i think?! i also do not know, how the aiboats are lead to your position. there must be given some pararmeters for the planes, which are created by the trigger (your radio message "contact report" or similar.

Just a thought. Ask Rowi in german Ubi-Forum about that. ImO he did something like that in LSH 3 with german airplanes. Would be a wonder if he could not help you with that. Would be great if that could work.:up:
Kind regards

[urfisch]

sure, it would be more than great. i sent him a pm...

[rowi58]

Hi,

a "call" by "radio message" only works with NONE-SCRIPTED air units - as bigboywooly mentioned above. A "call" for ai-subs (wolfpack) - similar to the cofiguration in the "Airstrike.cfg" - is impossible (imo).

Ai-subs must be scripted into the RND and/or SCR files.

Greets
rowi58

[Hunter]

How about adding AI boats to Air folder as unscripted arcrafts will it be possible to call them then?

[rowi58]

Sure, if subs can fly :rotfl:. And you must have "AirBase" for subs too. And just remeber the maxium speed of subs: the "AirBase" must be very near to the (possible) convoy routes.

So it is better to script the "wolfepacks" into the RND or SCR files.

Greets
rowi58

[urfisch]

ok. but if the subs are scripted into the layers...they are still not available through radio. that is, what needs to be achieved! so the way with airbases is the way we have to experiment with! (and there must not be so many bases, as you can set their range.)

but how do we get the aiboats linked to airbases? so they work the same way as planes do?

[tater]

I've made "air boats" in sh4. You can make a plane that will happy drive along in the water, with the 3d model of a sub, or whatever you like.

[iambecomelife]

ok. but if the subs are scripted into the layers...they are still not available through radio. that is, what needs to be achieved! so the way with airbases is the way we have to experiment with! (and there must not be so many bases, as you can set their range.)

but how do we get the aiboats linked to airbases? so they work the same way as planes do?

I think all you have to do is go to data\land\[airbase]. Design a new "airbase" that spawns the new unit. For instance, let's say you wanted American subs. Instead of the text below:

[Unit]
ClassName=LargeAirBaseUS
UnitType=406
MaxSpeed=0.000000
MinSpeed=0.000000
Length=1
Width=1
[AirGroup 1]
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19420601
Squadron1Class=LBSPBYCatalina
Squadron1No=2
[AirGroup 2]
StartDate=19420602
EndDate=19451201
Squadron1Class=LBSPBYCatalina
Squadron1No=1
Squadron2Class=LBB24LiberatorUS
Squadron2No=2
Squadron3Class=LBMk.3
Squadron3No=2

You would modify it to:


[Unit]
ClassName=[SubmarineSpawnpointUS]
UnitType=406
MaxSpeed=0.000000
MinSpeed=0.000000
Length=1
Width=1
[AirGroup 1]
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19420601
Squadron1Class=[New Sub Unit]
Squadron1No=2
[AirGroup 2]
StartDate=19420602
EndDate=19451201
Squadron1Class=[New Sub Unit]
Squadron1No=1
Squadron2Class=[New Sub Unit]
Squadron2No=2
Squadron3Class=[New Sub Unit]
Squadron3No=2

[bigboywooly]

I tried something similar for my test mission

[Unit]
ClassName=NormalSubBaseGe
UnitType=406
MaxSpeed=0.000000
MinSpeed=0.000000
Length=1
Width=1

[AirGroup 1]
StartDate=19410102
EndDate=19430101
Squadron1Class=Resupply Uboat
Squadron1No=1

And didnt spawn anything - using a regular AI sub though

[urfisch]

I tried something similar for my test mission

[Unit]
ClassName=NormalSubBaseGe
UnitType=406
MaxSpeed=0.000000
MinSpeed=0.000000
Length=1
Width=1

[AirGroup 1]
StartDate=19410102
EndDate=19430101
Squadron1Class=Resupply Uboat
Squadron1No=1

And didnt spawn anything - using a regular AI sub though

is the ai-boat scripted in itself and defined as "Resupply Uboat"? otherwise it will not even spawn and nothing happens. if it is defined as "Resupply Uboat" it may spawn, but stay there and do nothing - if there are no scripts for these boats. i dont know, how the ai-boats work.

and there may be another problem. as mentioned before, there are parameters sent, which trigger the spawn of luftwaffe planes, which attack your convoi. maybe these triggers do not make the uboats spawn, even they are defined as "air units"...

any thoughts on that? the idea is as simple as it gets. so there must be a working solution!

[Hunter]

I guess that Ai-sub and/or other units should be added to airfolder to be spawned ba a base.

[tater]

What I did in sh4 was to make a new plane, and point it at the 3d model of a boat as an experiment. When that worked, I cloned a plane, and changed the 3d model in the dat to a boat, messed with the sim, etc. Had to live in the Air folder.

[urfisch]

What I did in sh4 was to make a new plane, and point it at the 3d model of a boat as an experiment. When that worked, I cloned a plane, and changed the 3d model in the dat to a boat, messed with the sim, etc. Had to live in the Air folder.
anyone tested this?

anyway, if this works...the cloned "airplane-boats" do not have the properties of the ai-boats...right? and therefore will not attack or dive, or do similar things.

[tater]

No, it acted like a plane in the first test (it WAS a plane, just a different 3d model. Dunno about sh3, but in sh4 you can simply point the cfg at a different model path, and boom, it uses it.

The 2d experiment, actually changed the sim of the plane so that it would drive around on the water. It was none the less a PLANE, and acted like one, just not flying (hence "airboat" :) )

The goal in my experiments was a boat that would happily drop the fully functional AI air torpedo in sh4.

[bigboywooly]

I tried something similar for my test mission

[Unit]
ClassName=NormalSubBaseGe
UnitType=406
MaxSpeed=0.000000
MinSpeed=0.000000
Length=1
Width=1

[AirGroup 1]
StartDate=19410102
EndDate=19430101
Squadron1Class=Resupply Uboat
Squadron1No=1

And didnt spawn anything - using a regular AI sub though
is the ai-boat scripted in itself and defined as "Resupply Uboat"? otherwise it will not even spawn and nothing happens. if it is defined as "Resupply Uboat" it may spawn, but stay there and do nothing - if there are no scripts for these boats. i dont know, how the ai-boats work.
!

Resupply boat is the IXB AI class name
No wasnt scripted
The Sub ( air ) base was placed in the campaign files

Was using blank campaign files so any other scripts wouldnt matter anyway
Besides that shouldnt be a problem as air units are scripted and still spawn from air bases

No Tater SH3 doesnt have that feature to point to a 3d model
Another improvement when using multiple variations of the same ship

May try a clone of the AI IXB but change the type= to an airplane
See if it spawns that way using a normal airbase
Though not sure what the behaviour will be like if does
lol

[Stiebler]

Urfisch's interesting idea led me to carry out some tests with NYGM.

First, I cloned Sergbuto's AI U-boats (all type VIIAs) and gave them new class names, also max speeds of 10 knots. These data were copied into a copy of the cfg file for a FW200 bomber, not a U-boat cfg file. Then I cloned the AI U-boat turms, gave them new names, and referenced the new turms in the new AI U-boats. Then I cloned the German large air base, gave it a new name, gave it an altitude of 15 feet, and gave it three squadrons of 6, 6 and 4 AI U-boats. Then I placed the new turns in the \library folder, the new AI U-boats in the *\Air* folder, and the new airbase in the \Land folder.

Second, I went to Mission Editor. The platform library recognises all these changes without difficulty, and it was easy to create a mission with the new German airbase to spawn AI U-boats ('air-boats') placed in mid-ocean, an Allied convoy going in small circles around the airbase, and a player U-boat to approach the convoy.

The mission loaded without any problems, and I sailed my U-boat round and round the convoy, both close and outside convoy spawning range. All the time signalling to BdU (also the convoy signalled its position every three hours). All this was in early 1944, when air attacks are a real threat from the normal airbases.

I saw nothing at all of air-boats, which should have shown up on the map as blue circles after spawning. Nor was the convoy disturbed.

Third, I added the new German airbase, to spawn air-boats, close to Newfoundland where there a lot of convoys in campaign mode. I sailed a U-boat from France out to Newfoundland (January 1944), waited for convoys to arrive close to the new German airbase, and made the same approaches with the U-boat as in Mission Editor.

Again, there was no sign of any air-boats being spawned.
I did all this testing in almost perfect weather conditions, since the airbases never spawn aircraft in bad visibility.

So I cannot demonstrate that this idea works, although the conventional Allied airbases spawned over the U-boat all right, after all the signalling!

One other item of interest - I tried again, after placing roster entries for the new airbase as British, and for the new air-boats as British, and played the original mission again.
Once again, I never saw anything, but this time something definitely saw my U-boat. While close to the new airbase, and far away from any convoy, and sending numerous radio signals while cruising at slowest speed, the game became sluggish (other units nearby), then the stealth meter suddenly went red! Weather conditions were perfect, but there was nothing to see in any direction. I tried to look underwater, but the water was too dark in deep water and it was impossible to tell if there were any submerged U-boats. (Sergbuto's AI U-boats are designed to operate underwater, not on the surface.)
It was possible to shake off the hidden detection by running off at full speed, since the AI air-boats were limited to 10 knots, but then sending out more radio messages resulted in the same phenomenon, being detected by something invisible.
No Allied unit ever appeared on the main map close to the U-boat, although proper aircraft appear on the map.

It has occurred to me that Urfisch's idea might work in principle, but German air-boats perhaps respond only to the convoy signals, but not to those of the U-boat. This makes the idea impracticable, because it would be necessary to make the convoy signal its progress far too often - and there would have to be a lot of air-boat bases in the Atlantic to respond. It might even slow up the game, if every convoy has to struggle across the whole Atlantic attacked by air-boats, while the player is nowhere near. There is also the problem of weapons load-out. My air-boats had a load-out of bombs in their air .cfg file, so they were probably bombing the ocean bed after every attack! But how would you add a load-out of deck-guns or torpedoes?

Time to give up, I think. Pity.

Stiebler.

[Hitman]

In SH2 we had a similar problem, in that scripting german U-Boat bases to spawn AI U-Boats caused the game to become laggish as battles happened thousands of miles away from the player. I solved that by making the bases attached to the convoy be in fact ALLIED, hence they would only detect the player U-Boat and spawn.....german U-Boats. :)

Is it possible to attach an allied airbase to a unit in the convoy? That way, when the player gets close the convoy would inmediately detect it and spawn the wolfpack :hmm:

Nevertheless, the first problem to be solved seems to be the effective spawning of the U-Boats. Once this is solved, then it will be time to think how to place them properly in the campaign.

[Stiebler]

@Hitman,

That is very interesting information about SH2, thanks for this.

It is certainly possible to have in SH3 a scripted, moving airbase that can spawn aircraft. I experimented with that some time ago, but couldn't find a use for it.

Something to consider, anyway.

If anyone else is interested in experimenting, I could put my cloned units onto Filefront for download. Any requesters must have the skills to add them to mission files or campaign files, though.

Stiebler.

[iambecomelife]

@Hitman,

That is very interesting information about SH2, thanks for this.

It is certainly possible to have in SH3 a scripted, moving airbase that can spawn aircraft. I experimented with that some time ago, but couldn't find a use for it.

Something to consider, anyway.

If anyone else is interested in experimenting, I could put my cloned units onto Filefront for download. Any requesters must have the skills to add them to mission files or campaign files, though.

Stiebler.

Yes, please do. I would especially like to check out their DAT and SIM files.

[urfisch]

nice to see some progress on that! really...would be interesting to see, if this works. and if we keep on trying...we will get it done! as privateer always mentioned: every fail is a further step onto the target.

if i can help, please let me know. but my skills are more graphics, than code.

:up:

[Stiebler]

For those who wish to experiment:

I've uploaded my efforts on wolfpacks-from-airbases as a 7-zip (.7z) file at this address:

http://files.filefront.com/WolfPack7z/;13057487;/fileinfo.html

There is a readme file included.

Please note that this is strictly *EXPERIMENTAL* only, and must be used only by those familiar with creating mission or campaign files.

Good luck, experimenters!

Stiebler.

[Awful Smutje]

Wow, this is getting interesting! :yep:

I hope, that you all can figure this out. This would be a revolution!

I'd wish I could help, but I have no Idea how these files work...
Maybe I do it like Urfisch. Thinking out loud and posting ideas. ;):up:

[biosthetique]

I DLed it, which Mod/super Mod did you design it for, ergo on which ones should it be tested on?
Sincerely;)

[Stiebler]

@biosthetique:

I've put this package up for download because it does *not* function, not because it does!

I cannot make it function, but since other people have expressed interest in trying to make Urfisch's idea successful, I have given them the building blocks from which to start, so they can make an easy start.

It is not dependent on any mod package, since all the units are uniquely cloned, so can be used with any mod package. But you must know how to create single missions and campaign missions using these starting blocks. It is certain that anyone who lacks these skills will not be able to make this package function, so it is a basic test before people try to use the package.

@Hitman:

I've checked the airbases again in SH3, and unfortunately there seems to be no way of adding German units (of any type, air or sea) to British airbases. SH3 assumes that a British airbase must operate British aircraft, and a German airbase must operate German aircraft. That does make sense, certainly!
So it appears that the option you had in SH2 is not possible with SH3.

Good idea, though. Any more ideas?

Stiebler.

[urfisch]

hmmm...what was the problem to add bases with ai-boats in the ocean? there was no visible spawn, even you where spotted, right? god damn! there must be a solution for that...

if that is the problem (invisible spawn of units)...how can it be solved? you said, you looked under water and there was nothing too. maybe the boats fly? high above...somewhere? lol...or maybe the have been deep under water, where you couldnt see them? anyway, its interesting, youve been spotted!

i dont know.

:roll:

[VikingGrandad]

Very interesting discussion! Would be great if someone managed to crack AI wolf packs, after all these years...

It is certainly possible to have in SH3 a scripted, moving airbase that can spawn aircraft. I experimented with that some time ago, but couldn't find a use for it.

Something to consider, anyway.
Forgive me if I'm reading too much into what you're saying, but when I read the above I couldn't help but think: could you use that to make SH3's aircraft carriers actually launch planes? Would add a nice touch for carriers in hunter killer groups, or perhaps even other ships that have an aircraft catapult. The number of planes would have to be limited, which perhaps is not possible.

[Weiss Pinguin]

That was also the first thing that popped into my head when I read that. :hmm:

[bigboywooly]

AFAIK carriers etc do spawn aircraft as long as an airbase in range
For instance
No airbase in GWX has Swordfish in it
Carriers only ones that have them and yet have been attacked by Swordfish plenty of times
Early war and closeish to land
Mid war air coverage is almost total so shouldnt be a problem from carriers
Not sure aircraft do spawn from cruisers etc
Steibler did some thorough testing a while ago
Bit of luck he will pop back up and comment

[Stiebler]

Yes, I thought of carrier aircraft too.

I tested the idea of placing a *German* Bogue-class CVE into an Allied convoy, the idea being that the airbase would be so close to the convoy the aircraft would almost certainly respond to the first signal from the convoy (or from the player U-boat). After that, AI air-boats would spawn, while the convoy escort would destroy the German 'Bogue' carrier before the player could arrive on the scene and discover how I cheated to make the idea function!

This idea doesn't seem to work either. The escorts destroy the 'rogue Bogue' with zest and enthusiasm, but no AI air-boats come into action.

But then I thought - what exactly would be the point even if the idea had functioned?
You can easily get proper AI U-boats to attack individual convoys just by adding the AI U-boats to the convoy list. We do this already with NYGM, and I'm pretty sure GWX does the same. So actually this new idea serves no purpose at all.

Let us recap:
We are *not* trying to force AI U-boats to attack a convoy - NYGM and GWX have that already.
We *are* trying to make AI U-boats answer the call when a player U-boat signals contact (or radio message), or when the convoy signals its position.

And we've already agreed that, if AI U-boats respond when a convoy signals its position, then a) we will need a lot of airbases for air-boats, and b) there will be a lot of convoys attacked all over the ocean. So that is not really a valid option anyway.

So the only realistic problem requiring a solution is this:
How do we get AI air-boats to respond to the signal when the player U-boat makes a radio signal?

I don't know. Has anyone else any ideas?

Stiebler.

[Wolfehunter]

Seriously guys Silent Hunter 3? No way...


Widescreen fix in the works,

New ships and mods in the works,

AI improvements in the works..

Jezus what's next? Ubisoft is a fool to stop supporting this game. :nope:

Awesome ideas guys. I can't wait to see something like this happen. ;)

[bigboywooly]

I guess the answer lies within a trigger
Wonder if possible to add a new one - clone of the airbase one but pointing to a sub base with a new copy of the airstrike cfg - substrike
IIRC someone once made an intercept program that intercepted one of the dlls during start up to add somehing
Bit vague I know but cant recall all the details

Though I know bugger all about the triggers ingame have to admit

[Madox58]

There is no way aside from intercepting a Dynamic Link Library call to
allow this action.

Once you go that route?

UBI may have a problem with us.

It's called "Hacking the Code".

It can, and has been done.
Just not for release.

I have asked for an
'Official'
responce to doing this kind of stuff.
I was never answered.

As nothing is ever answered anyway?
Do what you feel is best
and deal with the problem when it arises.

[StarLion45]

:D AHOY all :D

:o I've been reading this post , and I am very very agree with Wolfehunter .:o what next :o For a couple of days ago I bought me 22'' widescreen for the first time ,wiewing SH3 in widescreen is awsome:p A widescreen mod it's on it's way ,
also more mod onit's way , and now this:o I never ever gonna be tired of this game . NO WAY:p :p :p :rotfl:

[StarLion45]

:D Ahoy all :D

I am so agree with Wolfehunter when he wrote this and I qoute :



" Jezus what's next? Ubisoft is a fool to stop supporting this game "
----------------------------------------------------------------
It's a simple soloution in this . Ubisoft know what they did wrong after they build the SilentHunterIII , and they are jealous on the GWX team who has made those wonderful mods , therefor they stopped to support this game:yep: So why in heavens name can be so difficult for Ubisoft to release the gamecode:hmm:
I don't understand it:shifty:

[magicsub2]

but is it possible to make u boats fly??:rotfl:

instead of being dropped into the wter......

[urfisch]

There is no way aside from intercepting a Dynamic Link Library call to
allow this action.

Once you go that route?

UBI may have a problem with us.

It's called "Hacking the Code".

It can, and has been done.
Just not for release.

I have asked for an
'Official'
responce to doing this kind of stuff.
I was never answered.

As nothing is ever answered anyway?
Do what you feel is best
and deal with the problem when it arises.

i am always for doing, what i want to do. in this kind of modding, everyone should to this. the game is out for 4 years now and in the german ubi forum there´s a sticky how to play this game without dvd...as to the problems, with securom.

what you are writing sound very promising! could you send me a pm on that? maybe i can motivate some people who have the skills to do that. as i guess you have no time for a try, dont you?

:hmm:

[bigboywooly]

There is no way aside from intercepting a Dynamic Link Library call to
allow this action.

Once you go that route?

UBI may have a problem with us.

It's called "Hacking the Code".

It can, and has been done.
Just not for release.
.

Doesnt MultiSH3 alter one of the dlls ?
Thats been released for ages with nothing AFAIK said as its still available

[urfisch]

any progress here?

[magicsub2]

how about you turn subs into planes so they can fly??

then alter one thing or another and they can land in the water. (maybe)

[VikingGrandad]

There is no way aside from intercepting a Dynamic Link Library call to
allow this action.

Once you go that route?

UBI may have a problem with us.

It's called "Hacking the Code".
Just out of curiosity: from Ubi's point of view, how is meddling with DLL files different to meddling with .cfg files, .tga files, .sim files, etc.?

Doesn't Ubi's official policy say that none of their software is allowed to be altered? If so, why do they draw a line between different kinds of game files?

[magicsub2]

does that actually mean that the code can be hacked?

if so, why not?

look at battle of the mediteranean........they made an unofficial expansion and SOLD it!

[urfisch]

sure, an addition was released. but they didnt dig into the code (dlls and exes) and changed something in there. they reworked mission files and graphics...even i dont know, why ubi allowed this to be sold as an expansion! there must be some kind of deal, or they really threw this pack onto the market, taking the risk of beeing admonished by ubi lawyers. anyway...

as privateer said:
to succed in getting ai boats, that attack due to radio messages...we have to find the trigger for this action. and this trigger in coded in one of the controlling dlls. so these have to be "decompiled" and changed...and this might be some kind of illegal activity, regarding the terms of use. but who cares? its just for fun and not sold. so...

go ahead!

:rock:

[Madox58]

The main reason I brought up the 'Hack the code'
thing is this.

Several times in the past, if the wrong person mentioned
doing such a thing?

Every closet Lawyer out there jumped in and offered free advise.
(Where are they when I need them? :haha: )

Myself?
I don't think we'd hear a word from UBI proper.
As I recall, they used a Reload fix for one of thier other Games.
;)

Who's to say they would not release a New version of SH3 with
any added benefits of DLL interception?

[urfisch]

so, lets give it a try...

:up:

shouldnt we?