[WIP] More Roll Over/Capsizing mod

[Lil' Subsim]

currenty the tankers now kind of have a bigger chance of roll overs, but may get weird behavior in bad weather, now working on the liners/troopships, its a pain, like the NLUS or the HMT Aquitania, can't get it to roll over well, unless someone that is good with the damage model can help me made the HMT Aquitania, more roll overable.

[Lagger123987]

Okay.....Mr.Roll-Over-Capsizing.

[iambecomelife]

Good work; I hope to install it once you're finished. It is extremely dissatisfying to see the exact same types of sinking behavior over & over again.

[Lanzfeld]

yeah but if ships are sinking in bad weather then it is a deal breaker.

[Jimbuna]

It would be great if you could do something with the Liberty hull.....not much variation at the moment.

[irish1958]

Good work; I hope to install it once you're finished. It is extremely dissatisfying to see the exact same types of sinking behavior over & over again.
Don't almost all ships sink by flooding? And slowly go under?

[Lil' Subsim]

It would be great if you could do something with the Liberty hull.....not much variation at the moment.
in the near future, but do need a beta tester or two would make the mod go a little faster so far, i need to test out the tankers in higher winds only tested in 0-5 mph winds same with the liners. iambecomelife, your pm box is full....

[Lil' Subsim]

bump

[Woof1701]

Good work; I hope to install it once you're finished. It is extremely dissatisfying to see the exact same types of sinking behavior over & over again. Don't almost all ships sink by flooding? And slowly go under?


Depends on where they are hit, how they flood and what secondary damages there are.
I've done a lot of thinking about the various supermod's tendencies to change the sinking behaviour since I always liked how SH3 portrayed it, though, I also believe the ships should sink far more slowly.
However, I don't think the NYGM version is satisfactory, since I believe ships do not sink by simple flooding due to exterior damage alone. It just isn't that simple: Internal fires weakening the structure and hastening the sinking, broken backs by torpedoes (which happened not too unfrequently) and finally internal explosions due to ammunition or an exploding steam engine where reasons for sinkings as well. Of course: the end result would always be that the ship no longer was able to stay afloat because there was too much water in it. Just a few more or less famous examples I picked out.

RMS Titanic hit the iceberg and approx. 1/5 of the hull's length directly beneath the waterline was ruptured on the starboard side and she sank bow first with the ship almost standing upright after the tail section broke off. Although only one side was damaged she barely listed to starboard and the sinking took about two and a half hours.

HMHS Brittanic (sister ship of Titianic) hit a mine and listed slightly and rolled to starboard before sinking bow first within only 55 minutes. Although her bulkheads and flood doors were superior to Titanic's she sank much faster.

U.S.S. Oklahoma (battleship) was hit by several torpedoes on the port side below the waterline and she turned turtle within less than 20 minutes.

U.S.S. Arizona (battleship) exploded because a bomb hit the magazine and tore the bow apart.

Yamato (battleship) received 13 (!) torpedo hits as well as many bomb hits and capsized. At which time her magazine exploded and she was torn into two pieces which sank quickly.

HMS Ark Royal (aircraft carrier) received only one torpedo hit and capsized only after many hours.

MV Wilhelm Gustloff (passenger liner) received three torpedo hits to the port bow to midships and first listed to starboard (!) then started to settle, then listed to port and finally went down bow first after only one hour.

SS Ohio (large tanker) was hit by two torpedoes and several bombs and managed to reach its destination with a broken back nearly braking completely apart.

SS Henry Bacon (Liberty Ship) was hit in an aft cargo hold followed by an explosion enlarging the hole. The ship sank stern first.

SS B. Stephens (Liberty Ship) was first hit by a torpedo in the bow. Parts of the cargo started burning. Ten minutes later a second torpedo hit further aft. The ship broke in two and both sections stayed afloat still burning. The aft section then was sunk by gunfire and the bow section sank while under tow.

SS Fort Lee (T2 Tanker) was hit aft in the engine room and a few minutes later in the starboard quarter sinking the ship stern first within approx. an hour.



I'd also like to point out that while describing quite dryly how those ships sank, I don't forget that about 16,000 people lost their lives with those ships alone. The worst of which being Wilhelm Gustloff with approx. 9,000 dead followed by Yamato, Titanic, Arizona and Oklahoma.

[iambecomelife]

Good points Woof1701.

One of my main hopes for merchant modding in SHV is for there to be a much more complex damage model for shipping. It should take into account many different factors, instead of the "X hitpoints and you're dead" approach:

-Structural failures. These could occur either because the torpedo explosion stressed the ship, or because the ship can't bear tilting at an extreme angle. It would be ideal if the ship could break into several pieces, instead of at the same point all the time.

-Progressive fire damage. "Call of Juarez" is an FPS with an excellent progressive fire damage model for wooden buildings. Shoot at an oil lamp and a fire starts, spreads as it touches other wooden objects, and may eventually consume an entire structure. There's no reason why a similar system can't be adopted for the SH series.

-Weight and density of cargo. An iron ore carrier should behave differently from a ship with a load of timber; there are accounts of some ore freighters sinking 30 seconds after being torpedoed. More cargo types would also make things visually interesting, with freight spilling into the sea as a merchant broke apart. Just like oil, bulk cargoes would often stain the seas for miles around. I recall an account of a Liberty loaded with powdered milk that literally turned the ocean white.

-Crew behavior & damage control. I'm not asking for "The Sims" here - maybe just a few canned animations of men using fire hoses, jettisoning cargo, etc. Premature abandonment would be another interesting feature; some ships were abandoned and drifted for days before being sunk/salvaged.

-For the record I'm not bashing the developers, and I am thankful they gave us a damage model so much better than AOD's or SH2's. I just believe there's always room for improvement.

[A Very Super Market]

I think structural failure being re-implemented would be a great idea! If there was a way to separate deck gun damage and ship damage points, then I'd be all for it. How many trawlers can survive 280 kgs of explosive anyways?

Progressive fire damage seems like a good idea at first, but are fires considered damage caused by you? I really hate it when the weather gets credit for a juicy cruiser. Then again, I also hate it when a tramp steamer thats completely engulfed in flames doesn't take any damage. Then again, I hate when I somehow cause blazing fires in the rain. Then again, I nitpick constantly.

Good idea. Can't stop laughing about the powdered milk thing:rotfl:

Good idea. Still can't stop laughing about the powdered milk thing:rotfl:

[iambecomelife]

I think structural failure being re-implemented would be a great idea! If there was a way to separate deck gun damage and ship damage points, then I'd be all for it. How many trawlers can survive 280 kgs of explosive anyways?

Progressive fire damage seems like a good idea at first, but are fires considered damage caused by you? I really hate it when the weather gets credit for a juicy cruiser. Then again, I also hate it when a tramp steamer thats completely engulfed in flames doesn't take any damage. Then again, I hate when I somehow cause blazing fires in the rain. Then again, I nitpick constantly.

Good idea. Can't stop laughing about the powdered milk thing:rotfl:

Good idea. Still can't stop laughing about the powdered milk thing:rotfl:

For the record, that Liberty was the "Walter Q Gresham". Cargo: "10.000 tons of general cargo, including powdered milk and sugar." :o

http://uboat.net/allies/ships/photos/am/walter_q_gresham.jpg

[irish1958]

Wolf1701,
Thanks for the detailed info. Very interesting. I also like your commit about the lives lost. Occasionally we must pause and consider the terrible toll of war.

[Woof1701]

@Iambecomelife
Right. The cargo was one more thing to be considered, however I think that one's hard to model. The most direct approach seems to be to simply develop different damage models for different types of ships. So a fully laden ore carrier would sink comparatively fast while a normal mixed cargo freighter would take longer. However, I have no idea what's possible, and what isn't. Introducing different floatsam after the sinking should be no problem, but I have no idea whether it's possible to implement that and tell the game which type of ship has which cargo and should spawn a certain type of floatsam. Maybe Privateer might know more about that.


Wolf1701,
Thanks for the detailed info. Very interesting. I also like your commit about the lives lost. Occasionally we must pause and consider the terrible toll of war.

Thanks for reading it!
Being German I admit I wanted to stress the sinking of the Gustloff, since it's one of those tragedies almost exclusively remembered in Germany even though to date its still the worst maritime tragedy ever (though Titanic got far more coverage). Same with the Lancastria, Steuben, Goya, Armenia, Junyo Maru and the raid on Cap Arcona, Deutschland and Thielbek. All those ships were deliberately attacked and sunk in World War II by either the British, the Germans or the Soviets with a loss of about 40.000 lives. Mainly civilians and/or prisoners. Barely anyone remembers them.

Well, we're playing a game with the experiences, feelings, and horrors of our parents and grandparents. In a way it can be seen as a macabre type of spending ones time. However entertaining this game, historic simulation, whatever you like to call it, may be, it recreates events that really took place. Maybe not completely accurately, but close enough to get a partial understanding of what it must've been like. Far beyond all kinds of UEBER-patriotic John Wayne-type hero movies of the fifties and sixties which made you believe that death maybe is part of war, but basically war really was supposed to be heroes, glory and justice.
So no propaganda here, but entertainment and a little history for those who choose to appreciate it. I still own my Aces Of the Deep Manual from 1993, and on occasion I still read in it. It contains a very good overview of the Battle of the Atlantic seen from the German side, and a lot of information beyond the sheer facts and numbers, that made me think about what I was actually playing there, and I deeply regret that the manuals of the current games and sims are so completely useless in this regard.

So now back to the game. My speech on morality and history is over. :)

[Lil' Subsim]

need a beta tester or two if availble, thanks to lagger123987 for letting me use his filefront to upload the file, anyone that volunteer, i'll send you the link for the file.