Sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff on TV

[bigboywooly]

For those in the UK there is a documentary on the sinking of the liner Gustloff in Jan 45

Already started on Discovery but will start again at 11am on Discovery +1

[mr chris]

Hmm how i miss Sky:dead:
The wife's Grandmother just missed being on the Gustloff.
She was born and brought up in Konigsberg.
She was telling me last year how as a 6 year old she was trekking through the snow fleeing the Russians with her family. While the Russian planes staffed the people as they fled.
Fortunately for her they arrived a few hours after the Gustloff had sailed.

[bigboywooly]

Lucky indeed
Biggest maritime disaster that hardly anyone knows about

[Schroeder]

Yep, even here in Germany there aren't many people who know about it.:-?:roll:

[mengle]

i have seen it on discovery , dident know that it was such a disaster so many dead

[bigboywooly]

I only knew from scripting AOTD_Maxs Gustloff liner and doing some research
I dont think the Germans were too keen on releasing details of the sinking so kept it hush hush

Mind you you cant really blame the Russian uboat Kpt
If she sailed across my bows I would have let some eels go too
Wonder if he stayed long enough to see all the passengers flooding to top deck trying to get off ?

Probably couldnt believe his luck spotting it lit up and un missable
Mind you if he did hang around he would have had a chance at the Hipper - who declined to lend a hand picking up survivors and sent its torpedoboot escort to help while sailing merrily back to Kiel, though it did have another 1500 refugees onboard too

Sad story indeed that one

[Red Heat]

Some more information about the Sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KdF_Ship_Wilhelm_Gustloff

http://www.wilhelmgustloff.com/sinking.htm

[piri_reis]

Mind you you cant really blame the Russian uboat Kpt
If she sailed across my bows I would have let some eels go too
Wonder if he stayed long enough to see all the passengers flooding to top deck trying to get off ?

Probably couldnt believe his luck spotting it lit up and un missable
Mind you if he did hang around he would have had a chance at the Hipper - who declined to lend a hand picking up survivors and sent its torpedoboot escort to help while sailing merrily back to Kiel, though it did have another 1500 refugees onboard too

Sad story indeed that one


I just watched the "Sea Hunters" episode where they dive to the wreck, under 42m of water in the Gulf of Gdansk, Poland. The show gives great insight to the tragedy. The captain of the torpedo boat escort that comes to the rescue, is also interviewed, where he says while helping the survivors the lookouts call two torpedo wakes, which forces him to order leaving the area. So the submarine might've fired again..
After the war the wreck was cut to pieces and blown apart by the Soviet Gov., searching for treasures stolen from Russia. Which were thought to be carried by the Gustloff.

[bigboywooly]

Yeah on the Discovery show they dived the wreck and said pretty much the same thing

Though you would have thought would have been classed as a war grave or something as all off duty crew were sealed in bow when flood doors shut
Though bulk of crew were civilian it was a KM ship

Obviously nothing found by the Soviets or a big deal would have been made over a find

[kranz]

has anyone seen Die Gustloff made by ZDF Channel(german tv) a few months ago? There was no cinema premiere, only a tv one. I'm also looking for any dl sources-dunno if it is legal etc..so maybe a pm to avoid posting it here, but I guess if recording sth from tv may be legal this is also.

check this btw http://gustloff.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/11/0,1872,7131083,00.html

[bigboywooly]

has anyone seen Die Gustloff made by ZDF Channel(german tv) a few months ago? There was no cinema premiere, only a tv one. I'm also looking for any dl sources-dunno if it is legal etc..so maybe a pm to avoid posting it here, but I guess if recording sth from tv may be legal this is also.

check this btw http://gustloff.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/11/0,1872,7131083,00.html

Thanx for that
Just watching Hafen der Hoffnung on that site now
:up:

[Jimbuna]

has anyone seen Die Gustloff made by ZDF Channel(german tv) a few months ago? There was no cinema premiere, only a tv one. I'm also looking for any dl sources-dunno if it is legal etc..so maybe a pm to avoid posting it here, but I guess if recording sth from tv may be legal this is also.

check this btw http://gustloff.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/11/0,1872,7131083,00.html

PODZIĘKOWANIE kranz....great link http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[jaxa]

Not only "Wilhelm Gustloff" was sunk there at the same time, "Steuben" and "Goya" too. It's not common known part of history, everybody know about "Titanic", but "Gustloff", "Steuben" and "Goya" are uknown for many people, even in Germany (on "Gustloff" died 9600 men, on "Goya" 6800 and on "Steuben" 3350 - on "Titanic" 1500).
"Gustloff" is better known of them because this ship probably transport Amber Room from Konigsberg to Germany.

This time these ships are protected by international and Polish law as war cemetaries, diving there is forbidden.

[Red Heat]

has anyone seen Die Gustloff made by ZDF Channel(german tv) a few months ago? There was no cinema premiere, only a tv one. I'm also looking for any dl sources-dunno if it is legal etc..so maybe a pm to avoid posting it here, but I guess if recording sth from tv may be legal this is also.

check this btw http://gustloff.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/11/0,1872,7131083,00.html

Great link! :up:

[Jimbuna]

Not only "Wilhelm Gustloff" was sunk there at the same time, "Steuben" and "Goya" too. It's not common known part of history, everybody know about "Titanic", but "Gustloff", "Steuben" and "Goya" are uknown for many people, even in Germany (on "Gustloff" died 9600 men, on "Goya" 6800 and on "Steuben" 3350 - on "Titanic" 1500).
"Gustloff" is better known of them because this ship probably transport Amber Room from Konigsberg to Germany.

This time these ships are protected by international and Polish law as war cemetaries, diving there is forbidden.

The Amber Room...one of WWII's unsolved mysteries http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Room

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/doubleissue/mysteries/amber.htm

http://www.geo.uw.edu.pl/HOBBY/AMBER/amberroom.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5174876/

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaeoXWpwmDQ

[jaxa]

I see you are interested in history and mystery of The Amber Room, jimbuna.
What do you think about that? Where is it in your opinion? Do you know theory about castle in Pasłęk (northern Poland, former Preussisch Holland in Ost Preussen), where Amber Room could be hidden?

[bigboywooly]

I take it the Goya and Stueben recived the same treatment from the Soviets after the war as the Gustloff ??
Both those sinkings are in GWX too

As well as the Theilbecks ( sp )

[geosub1978]

I believe Gustlof and the rest are just part of the game. The 9600 poor souls lost onboard "Gustlof" are of the same value of the 600 souls of "Ceramic". Recently I read about a german merchant sunk after allied air raid in 1944 out of Salamis base (don't remember her name) which transfered 4500 italian prisoners. None of the prisoners survived. These acts are result of the fog of the war, as long as they have not been done deliberately. On the other hand, the "deliberately" or "not deliberately" is part of the "after war" fog! Such a big petty!

[Jimbuna]

I see you are interested in history and mystery of The Amber Room, jimbuna.
What do you think about that? Where is it in your opinion? Do you know theory about castle in Pasłęk (northern Poland, former Preussisch Holland in Ost Preussen), where Amber Room could be hidden?

I honestly have no idea where it might be or could be hidden.

Unless Indiana Jones found it and it is stored in crates at some secret location underground storage site. ;)

[gmuno]

It might even have been burned during some bombing raids. I think, it's lost, gone, never to be found. What would life be without some mysteries.

I've never heard or read something about big-scale salvage-operations on the Gustloff. Mid 2008 the ZDF made a two-part film about the sinking and (who would have guessed) released a documentary book alongside. I stumbled across this book, had a look through it and there was no mention about a salvage ops and this book was quite well researched.

The Steuben was found in the sixties and identified only a few years ago by Polish minehunters. If you google it, you're gonna find at least one high-res sonarimage of this ship. Or go to Wiki and type Steuben ;).

The Wreck of the Cap Arcona was broken up shortly after the war. I wonder what the the RAF-pilots did after they found out what they had done.

The Goya was found and identified 2002.

The sinking of those 4 ships aree the greatest tragedies in shipping history (together and each single for itself).

[jaxa]

I see you are interested in history and mystery of The Amber Room, jimbuna.
What do you think about that? Where is it in your opinion? Do you know theory about castle in Pasłęk (northern Poland, former Preussisch Holland in Ost Preussen), where Amber Room could be hidden?

I honestly have no idea where it might be or could be hidden.

Unless Indiana Jones found it and it is stored in crates at some secret location underground storage site. ;)

Indiana Jones will find Amber Room in his next film :D

[mariuszj1939]

I saw on Discovery channel documentary film abt those ships approx one year ago (narrated by Captain Baranowski) and one thing still remember. Divers couldn't find anything belonged to the crew or passengers. He explained all ship's wrecks were under Soviet control till end '50 and everything found on board was packed and delivered directly to Soviet Union (especially with Nazi marks).

Acc. to Soviet's propaganda - all ships evacuated German troops and ... it was partly true (mostly wounded soldiers).


mr chris - my personal opinion - War is always War. WWII was launched by Germans and finally even some innocent German people died at sea or air raids over German cities ... but please just compare it to heavy lossies in Soviet Union or Poland. After 6 years of War terror/occupation we lost 5.600.000 (over 16 % of population). People (like all of my family) had to escape from Homeland but few years earlier ... :cry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Casualties_by_country

[Schroeder]

mr chris - my personal opinion - War is always War. WWII was launched by Germans and finally even some innocent German people died at sea or air raids over German cities ... but please just compare it to heavy lossies in Soviet Union or Poland. After 6 years of War terror/occupation we lost 5.600.000 (over 16 % of population). People (like all of my family) had to escape from Homeland but few years earlier ... :cry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Casualties_by_country
O.K. and what is the point of this post?
We shall not remember the dead of these catastrophes because there have been others too? German civilians killed is no tragedy but allied civilians killed by Germans is a war crime?
There have been many crimes and atrocities on both sides but we usually only remember the dead of the allied nations. If it had been Polish people on those ships and a German sub had sunk them would it have been more worthy of remembrance?:roll:

[jaxa]

Dead and war are tragedy for all people: Polish, German, English, American, Russian, Jewish etc., but we should remember who started WW2. We have proverb in Poland: who sow wind this one gather storm. Was bombing of Dresden war crime - yes, probably was. Many German women were raped by Soviet soldiers. Was it war crime? I'm sure it was. But we can't forget that before raid over Dresden were Luftwaffe raids over Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam and London, cities without any military targets. Before Soviet rapes were many mass executions of civilians in Poland, Soviet Union etc. Many Germans from Ost Preussen were forced to leave their houses and escape in cold winter 1945 - it was tragedy for them, but I can't forget that many of them voted for Hitler in 1933.
I saw film about 'Gustloff ', it was terrible disaster. I don't care there were Germans or any nationalities, for me there were only people, people who died. It was human tragedy. But I remember that human tragedy was Warsaw Uprising, Holocaust and many other war crimes too.
This time, over 60 years past WW2, we should remember what was the reason of WW2 and should think how to prevent the wars.

[Schroeder]

What I can't stand anymore is that when ever someone is posting something about a desaster happening to Germans some people are jumping at it to say "But they have too done that and that....". I mean we have been talking about German crimes for the last 60 years! Everyone knows it and here in Germany we are VERY aware of our past. There are documentarys over here pretty much weekly that show us time and again what our grandfathers did. Now why can we only discuss German crimes and remember allied victims? Whenever a tragedy is pointed out that happened to German people someone jumps at it and trys to make it irrelevant!
Can't we remember ALL tragedies? It always seems to me as if some people were realy afraight that Germans could also have been victims.

By the way, just by remembering such a desaster we don't deny our guilt in all this. But after 60 yerars we should finaly be able to have a look at ALL that happened and not always just beat one side. Blaming us for being monsters and then pretty much doing the same things is a bit of hypocritical, isn't it?
(This is not directed at Poland but at all Nations that took part in WWII)

One more thing, would you have known in 1933 that Hitler would start a war like this? Do you know what the situation was back then in Germany? Hitler gave a lot of people hope. He made lots of promisses. How often are elections won today because of that? If they had voted for him in 1939 I would share you oppinion.

[jaxa]

Schroeder, it's not simple thesis - bad Germans and good Allies. I have never said this. My grandmother alived the war thanks to German officer who gave her medicine for typhus, there were many decent Germans during WW2. But in fact Germany started the war and had to bear responsibility for that.
You told Hilter gave Germans hope and nobody known in 1933 that Hitler will start the war. What was this hope? Hope for revenge for WW1 defeat. There were many Germans in 1933 which supposed what will be result of Hitler's victory in election. He created SA in 1921 for fighting against political opponents, organised Munchen coup in 1923, wrote 'Mein Kampf' in 1924 - it's forbidden book in Germany now, but after reading this book you can simply understand which methods of authority he prefered and something about Lebensraum (more in A. Hitler, 'Das zweites Buch', 1928) and extermination of Slavs, Jews and other Untermenschen by German Ubermenschen. Germans liked this theories and allowed him take power in election 1933. This is fact.

[GerritJ9]

Re the Amber Room: it was most probably destroyed in Königsberg AFTER the city was taken by the Soviets, in a fire caused by drunk Soviet soldiers.
See: "The Amber Room" by Catherine Scott-Clark and Adrian Levy; ISBN of my copy is 1-84354-035-5. The Soviets went to extreme lengths to cover up this embarrassing affair, claiming it "disappeared" in 1945 thanks to the Germans, a position the Russian Federation still takes. As part of the smokescreen, diving expeditions to the "Gustloff" and the efforts to salvage the cargo.

[mariuszj1939]

Can't we remember ALL tragedies? It always seems to me as if some people were realy afraight that Germans could also have been victims.

Who said something like this - a lot of Germans were victims of course !
But ask yourself why they were victims in 1945 and what they have done in the beginning of War ? Some of those German families emigrated in 1939-40 to occupied Northern/Western territory of Poland and relaced Polish citizens sent to mid Poland.
Are these info also present today in German TV ?
Do you know background of some facts ? Why people were afraid of Russians and sail away to Western Germany ?



One more thing, would you have known in 1933 that Hitler would start a war like this? Do you know what the situation was back then in Germany? Hitler gave a lot of people hope. He made lots of promisses. How often are elections won today because of that? If they had voted for him in 1939 I would share you oppinion.

I like and know history WWI/WWII (my hobby) - understand election in 1933 (Versal treaty and a lot of problems for Germany in 1920-33).
He gave them hope when started build autobahns and reduced unemployment.
But why people in 1938-41 were so charmed by his War and wons in Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, Balkan countries etc ? Have they supported Nazi or not in these years ?

[Schroeder]

Who said something like this - a lot of Germans were victims of course !
But ask yourself why they were victims in 1945 and what they have done in the beginning of War ? Some of those German families emigrated in 1939-40 to occupied Northern/Western territory of Poland and relaced Polish citizens sent to mid Poland.
Are these info also present today in German TV ?
I think I've seen something about deportations of Polish citizens and that they have in fact been replaced by Germans. So yes, I would say that is present on German TV. So is the Holocaust, the crimes of the SS, the stuff that lead to Hitler's rise (including the SA thugs) and the elimination of: critics, homosexuelles, communists, gypsies... . The massacres and retaliations against civilians in occupied countries...scorched earth in those countries towards the end....and the list propably goes on.


Do you know background of some facts ? Why people were afraid of Russians and sail away to Western Germany ?
I think the above statement says so.;)


I like and know history WWI/WWII (my hobby) - understand election in 1933 (Versal treaty and a lot of problems for Germany in 1920-33).
He gave them hope when started build autobahns and reduced unemployment.
But why people in 1938-41 were so charmed by his War and wons in Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, Balkan countries etc ? Have they supported Nazi or not in these years ?
I have to admit, many did.
But what I'm asking is why isn't it possible to remember thousands of civilians who have died (as a result of Nazi politics)? Do you know how many of those people were war criminals or hard core Nazis? I don't.
I don't want to say they were all innocent or even against nazism. But I don't think that the majority of them were war criminals or evil people. So why can't we just remember ANOTHER tragedy of WWII? It's not that anyone here would like to rewrite history so that Germany stands there as the victim. And no one forgets the victims caused by Germany. All I ask for is that we may also remember the German people who got caught in the war and lost their lifes togehter with all the people of the other nations who had to suffer because of the Nazis.

[jaxa]

Did Erica Steinbach ever tell about these facts in German TV? She told many times about German victims of WW2, but unfortunately nothing about Allies (especially Slav) victims of war and nothing about that who started the war. This is reason why we are so sensitive about problem of victims of war.

Schroeder, you should know why we are so cautious talking about German victims of WW2. Many people, like Erica Steinbach, try to say that Germans are only victims of WW2. She talks only about displacements of Germans in 1945, she doesn't want to talk about pre-1945 history and German war crimes during war in occupied countries. This is falsification of history.

[Schroeder]

Actually I had to look her up in wikipedia. I never heard of her before (or maybe I just forgot her again, so she can't have been important).

If you read the Wiki article it says:
"sie [ist] heute in Polen bekannter als in Deutschland... "
That translates into :"She is nowadys more known in Poland than in Germany..."
http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/54/1012554/1024_3531303631623763.jpg

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erika_Steinbach


Here we usually don't take such people too serious. There aren't many of them and they definitely don't represent Germany.

There have always been idiots around and she seems to be one of those.
Don't worry, no one over here who is sane is trying to rewrite history. As I already said we are aware of the deeds we committed.

Let's just remember all people who had to suffer from the war no matter of which nation.:yep:

[jaxa]

Good said. Salut to you :up:

[mariuszj1939]

There have always been idiots around and she seems to be one of those.
Don't worry, no one over here who is sane is trying to rewrite history. As I already said we are aware of the deeds we committed.

Let's just remember all people who had to suffer from the war no matter of which nation.:yep:

Agree totally ! :up:

[Schroeder]

:up:

[jaxa]

After this interesting discussion we should drink beer like old friends - Bavarian beer (very tasty) and Polish beer (if you didn't drink it yet I propose you to try, very good, maybe better than Bavarian ;) )

[Cezbor]

Happy New Year mates, let's make this world better place to live in 2009 ..... together :up: .

[Schroeder]

After this interesting discussion we should drink beer like old friends - Bavarian beer (very tasty) and Polish beer (if you didn't drink it yet I propose you to try, very good, maybe better than Bavarian ;) )
Sounds good.:D

@Cezbor
Happy new year to you too and to all Subsim members.:yep:

[Jimbuna]

Is it safe to come back yet http://imgcash5.imageshack.us/img134/3995/newshy222ul3cg8.gif

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4030/winkbigid2zj6.gif

All the very best for 2009 folks http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/Party.gif

[Robert Fulton]

For those not familiar with it, a book by A.V Sellwood is an account of the sinking of the Gustloff. "The Damned Don't Drown" was originally published in 1973 at London by Wingate and re-published in 1996 in the U.S.

It was written before access to Soviet archives and before release of some allied archives as well. But it was also written when survivors and others on the scene were able to be located and interviewed.

[bigboywooly]

For those not familiar with it, a book by A.V Sellwood is an account of the sinking of the Gustloff. "The Damned Don't Drown" was originally published in 1973 at London by Wingate and re-published in 1996 in the U.S.

It was written before access to Soviet archives and before release of some allied archives as well. But it was also written when survivors and others on the scene were able to be located and interviewed.

Might try and locate a copy of that
Thanx
:up: