A few questions about the game

[smack]

Hello everybody,

I am planning to purchase the game, because I feel it is much better than Sub Command and it has way more realism added to it. I am very excited about it and wanted to ask a few questions:

1. When you stop the Submarine, does the propeller stop or it keeps rotating like in Sub Command? I found that unrealistic and irritating.

2. Do you have any control on the bow/stern planes? Another thing that should have been added earlier.

3. Do you have any control on the ballast tanks? (Ex: Blow all the ballast from the forward tanks) I think should be a great addition if it is not in the game, maybe in the next patch.

4. Can you reverse the propellers? When you give the order for All Back 1/3 -> Emergency the propellers should reverse motion.

5. Can you communicate with allied platforms via the antenna or by other means?

6. Is the radio message floating wire longer? (In Sub Command it is very short)

7. Can you emergency dive the ship?




And now a few things I would like added hopefully in the next game:

I. Battle Stations mode (Click a button and the stations are with red light and crew is more alert)

II. 1st person option (Choose to See the rest of the crew and give them commands individually and wonder around the submarine and its compartments, ie. Not likely but its cool to dream lol)

III. Use morse code to communicate between platforms (It will have a guide in the sub on usage) and also via the antenna and to ask for help ect..

IV. Flags on the different platforms to point out origin.

V. Drills on the sub (the least drills you perform the worse the crew will be to able to manage situation/ optional selection from the Options Menu)

VI. "Disaster" Option (It would be an option selectable from the options menu where at any point during a mission or not depending on random selection, there will be a problem that would cause damage and needs repair)

VII. Abandon The Ship (An option selectable from the orders menu to evacuate the crew and scuttle the boat, the crew will be on rafts visible in the water and could make way points for them to reach to an allied platform or wait for one before debrief)





And these are a few off the top of my head... Sorry for the long writing, but I get passionate and visionary when it comes to submarine games and want them as realistic as possible. ;)

Thank you for reading this long dream of mine. I hope you can answer the questions about the game since I am planning to purchase it in mid December.

Thank you folks!

[SandyCaesar]

1. It doesn't look like the prop ever stops; that wasn't fixed.

2. Nope, no ability to trim.

3. Yes, there is. Emergency blows are fun, if not practical, to perform. On the 688 (not sure about the others) there's the option to "Open" or "Close" the MBTs

4. Maybe in the LWAMI mod; unsure about stock.

5. Yes! You can put enemy platforms on the datalink with the antenna (receive with the floating wire), and let your friends handle some of the work. In fact, IIRC, some missions will have you finding and linking something so that the Ticos/Burkes can handle it.

6. Depending on the mod, sometimes.

7. No...no emergency flood. You can experiment with the MBT vent controls, but aside from that...

And as for the rest...that's Silent Hunter III/IV territory!:doh: It's be amazing to have, but it'll be the devil to code.

Other advice: be sure that you patch to 1.04, then get the LWAMI modification, available at Mr. Bill Nichols' site (www.subguru.com.) It fixes a number of problems and adds to the realism considerably. Beyond that, there's Alfa Tau and Reinforce Alert, both of which are currently the subject of intense discussion in the forum.

Oh, and before I forget: welcome aboard to DW, smack!:up:

[smack]

Thank you SandyCaesar!

Well I am disappointed in that most of these simple things can be fixed. Like the propeller and floating wire ect.. I suppose it doesn't take that much code for it. As well is the ballast tanks and planes and emergency flood.

And as for the communication with other allied platforms, can you do that in missions or has to be multiplayer?


And my point is that it took them 4 years for a new game, why dont they take another 4-6 years and come up with a game as big as a few gigs (2-8) and fix all these problems add realism add more stations and controls of things along with every platform playable. It would be far better than getting a game out every year with fair improvements. I say to them, take your time and come up with a game that will change simulation for ever. Make it a few gigs and add everything in it. Even if its a bit buggy, create a few patches and fix those problems. Its the will power, not how hard it is to do. I hope they do something like that.

[kgsuarez]

Hi, smack. I've played both SC and DW. I think you will pleased with your purchase of DW. It is a great game that I have gotten a lot of fun from over the years.

I'll do my best to answer your questions.

1) I don't know, I haven't looked. There was some discussion about this on the forums once. I think the the conclusion we came to was that it is realistic for the propeller to continue turning. When you order all stop, what actually happens (in a real sub) is that the angle on the blades is adjusted so that they are not biting into the water to create thrust. The reasoning behind this was that the propeller shaft must remain in motion to prevent too much water from leaking in through the seals.

2) No. It's too bad really. Very few subsims have included this feature.

3) You can blow the tanks for an emergency surface like in SC. You can also open the MBT vents while on the surface to manually dive the ship, but I don't remember if this was already an option in SC or not. Unfortunately, no subsim I have ever played has given the player realistic control of the ballast tanks. Its a shame, because ballast is a very important aspect of submarine control.

4) Again, I am not sure. But according to what I referenced in No. 1, what would really happen is the propeller blades would shift to allow reverse thrust.

5) Kind of... they can communicate with you. If your antenna is raised you can receive information from allied platforms on the location of enemies.

6) I don't know. But, there is a mod available for DW called LWAMI that makes adjustments to various sensors and weapons in the game. With the LWAMI mod the floating wire is the correct (real world) length.

7) No, but I would imagine that this is not that much of a realism issue. Modern nuclear submarines are meant to stay submerged 99% of the time so I would not be surprised if they don't even have an emergency dive procedure. Due to the advancement of detection technologies a modern submarine would be (hopefully) submerged long before there is any visual contact with another vessel. Either way, diving a modern boat is probably a complicated procedure with a lot of room for mistakes if it is rushed.

And now a few things I would like added hopefully in the next game
We all have our own lists like that. :) There are some independent developers creating subsims that will include a little more user input than in the past, so it will be a reality one day. We just have to be patient. Look around on the forums, there is a section for "Indie SubSims" that has a bunch of info on these games. A few of them look very promising.

[smack]

kgsuarez, thank you for taking the time and answering my questions, I am really excited about it and can't wait to buy it.

The reason I asked about the propeller is that in reality the propeller stops moving and you become quiet, hence no rotating of propeller which means no moving parts and impossible to detect unless using active sonar. So it would have been better if it stopped, but I guess its not such a big deal. The reverse of the propellers is also something that could be made in a patch, its not a long code to write and as you mentioned, a current patch contains extension of the floating wire, so something to that extent.

The game seems way better than its predecessor, I can only imagine what will see in the next game. I went to subguru.com and saw many patches for DW, so hopefully then can make more that will fix these problems. The rest of our lists will hopefully become the future.

However I don't know many people playing sub simulators and is that a problem for the makers of the game? I mean compared to Flight Simulator which I have every version going back to the '90s people actually buy the game and its filled with so much realism that I wish could be applied to the Sub Simulators. The last Flight Simulator was like 15 Gigabites. Imagine what a sub sim will be with these parameters.

Anyway, thanks for the time and for the advice, I can't wait!

[MR. Wood]

If they would release a 15 gb dw or like it naval sim that would be sweet just think of the posibilitys real water depth harbors etc etc:rock:

[Molon Labe]

Hello everybody,

I am planning to purchase the game, because I feel it is much better than Sub Command and it has way more realism added to it. I am very excited about it and wanted to ask a few questions:

1. When you stop the Submarine, does the propeller stop or it keeps rotating like in Sub Command? I found that unrealistic and irritating.
Most subs always keep their props turning to keep the shaft seals from breaking, so that's really not a problem. But as has already been said, it's a fixed animation.[/quote]


2. Do you have any control on the bow/stern planes? Another thing that should have been added earlier.

3. Do you have any control on the ballast tanks? (Ex: Blow all the ballast from the forward tanks) I think should be a great addition if it is not in the game, maybe in the next patch.
Not in DW, but you might want to check out Dr. Sid's community subsim (http://www.commanders-academy.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=87). Development is slow but steady, and it promises to be higher fidelity than DW in these areas--including manual control of the planes and some control over the ballast tanks.


5. Can you communicate with allied platforms via the antenna or by other means?
There's a datalink and an option for side chat. You can also script messages to be sent to platforms when certain events occur, if you're creative you can use that to send planned messages. There's a "COMSAT" mod out there that has an object specifically intended to be used this way.


7. Can you emergency dive the ship?
Not really. Shift+3 will send you to 300ft IIRC though, so there is a quick command available to do a quick dive, but nothing resembling the emergency drill (which really is a shame).




And now a few things I would like added hopefully in the next game:
I'm with you on the flags and casualty drills.

[Neptunus Rex]

Emergency Deep would be nice, and it's just not a depth order, it's a command phrase. it's one of those things that only the O.O.D or Capt will say.

When Emergency Deep is commanded, the Dive orders the plansman to take the boat to 150 feet, helmsman orders up 2/3 bell, Chief of the Watch will flood depth control tanks.

As a matter of fact, when coming up to periscope depth, if the OOD says anything other than "No close contacts" the ships control party will automatically take emergency deep actions without the actual command.

DW changes depth a little too casually.

[Castout]

About propeller animation not stopping when at full stop it's imo just a cosmetic faults.

Yes 3D models in DW are just for cosmetics because the real gameplay is played from the various stations. That's why we have the disable 3D option.

Don't be taken aback by cosmetic faults like this. DW is a great game with community mods that will make it even greater in terms of realism. Of course you cannot expect DW to be perfect even with the mods but hey there is nothing better than DW in its genre not now and not in the near future.

[smack]

I am not saying its not a good game. No game is perfect! Even the 15 Gigs of Flight Simulator could have bugs. What I am saying is that to make a simulation realistic, small things matter. And only the more experienced people play without the 3D. You get a lot of more realism of your surroundings with the 3D and detail is what matters. All of these could be fixed with a patch so its not a big deal. What I was basically saying is that small things matter and if simulation is to be a "simulator" it has to imitate reality, and turning propellers while a ship is STOPPED is not in reality true.

And also what Neptunus Rex said about the emergency dive. To have a good game means the realism level should be a top priority that includes graphics ect. So yes the propeller is important but no need to get obsessed with it since it can be fixed and I believe it must. How can you pretend to be silent when the propeller is still turning with the same speed as it was when you were going 25 kts?

Anyway more realism would be nicer in the next game. So far so good, can't wait to get it!

[Bubblehead Nuke]

DW is a good sensor sim. The longer I play it, the more I see why the Navy uses it. They are not concerned with shiphandling. DW is all about the sensors and the proper employment of said sensors. Granted, the sonar model is simplistic. The shiphandling model is beyond simplistic. But this is all known. We are using a cut down version of the NavSimEngine. Things like this are to be expected and honestly, we will never see improvements in this engine beyond the tweaks that we have already seen in prior patches. I would not expect major things like even the simple cosmetic fixes mentioned on this thread to be fixed.

Let me take a moment here and talk about the ComSubSim.

The Community Sub Sim should have MUCH higher standards as far as sound levels, controls, trim, and many, many, MANY other things. Things like Emergency Deep, Flooding, angles and dangles, trim control and serveral other physical aspects of ship hydrodyamnics & handling have been discussed and worked on.

If you know something about subs, Non-nuke OR nuke, then please contact Dr. Sid to have some input. I ask those who HAVE SERVED on subs to contribute some insight. Yes, you have to be cirmumspect. Yes, you have to search all over the internet to find examples and ideas to get a general point or concept across. I had to search far and wide but finally found a decent book (Concepts of Submarine Design by Cambridge Press is EXCELLENT reading BTW) to get a few points across in a way that is understandable. Yes, you have to obey the rules and not devulge classified material. But, if you can get a CONCEPT across, the rest (the data) can be created to make a balanced sim.

If you have not served, feedback is always welcome, but please understand what what you THINK you know is not always even close.

Case in point on this very thread. A stopped screw is NOT going to make you silent. In fact, it may make you more noisey in some circumstances. For the record, the shaft can sit ALL day stopped and not hurt a thing as far as the shaft seals are concerned. There are other consideration as to why we preferred to keep the shaft spinning, even if very slowly.

[smack]

Bubblehead Nuke thanks for the input, but how can a stopped propeller make you noisier? I have been on a submarine, the propeller stops because moving though the water creates sound that can be picked up by nearby vessels. It is called moving parts, when you have things moving in the water they emit sound. And its simple physics, how can the propeller spin and the sub not go forward? Its designed to propel the sub and when the sub stops, the screw should stop as well. Thats why submarines stop their engines when somebody is coming in their wash or behind the subamarine and then perform a Crazy Ivan just to be sure. The screws have to stop. Watch any movie with subs in it and you will see the propeler stops everytime the sub stops.

A stop device for application to an outboard marine engine to retain the propeller against rotation while the prop nut is being tightened or loosened. The device is T-shaped and includes side wings and a vertical leg. The wings have slots which permit the device to be slipped onto a tail plate located above the propeller. The leg extends downwardly between the blades of the propeller and engages the blades to prevent propeller rotation.

Thurst is made by faster and faster rotations, so how can a rotating propeller stop the submarine? Its like a bycicle, can you be at one place while turning the peddals? No.

And I dont expect them to be fixed, I expect a patch that fixes them since it is the only way, unless the developers start thinking outside of the box and use different code for some of these things, for a good code writer its not exactly a head scratcher.

[kgsuarez]

smack, the only submarines that can approach anything like total silence are diesel-electric boats. And even then it is difficult. Because, as you say, there are moving parts that simply must keep moving if the boat is going to stay within control.

The nuclear reactor on submarines cannot be turned off; it is always running. The only time it is turned off is when a boat is decommissioned and scrapped. Nuclear reactors produce a lot of heat and require water pumps to keep them within an optimum and safe operating temperature. Those pumps make noise. In addition, submarines require a lot of electricity. The generators that produce that electricity make noise, and lots of it.

Obviously, they try very hard to keep things quiet. For example, on a 688i, the aforementioned generators are sealed in an acoustically padded compartment, atop a lot of thick rubber and giant springs. The noise level in that compartment approaches 96 decibels. I don't know if this is accurate. I read about this in a fiction novel. Nevertheless, I think it at least helps to illustrate my point.

As far as a propeller spinning, but not moving the boat, it's simple. A lot of airplanes have what are called variable pitch propellers. The individual blades on the propeller can be adjusted so that the amount of "bite" they take out of the air is greater or less. If the angle of the blades was adjusted to a certain point, the blades would no longer be moving the water around them and the thrust would be gone. The propeller at this point is still moving through the water, but it is not causing as much of a disturbance as before, at least sound-wise.

Think of it as the transmission in a car. 2500 RPMs in 1st gear moves you at 25 MPH, but 2500 RPMs in 5th gear moves you at 50 MPH. And then, placing the gear shift in neutral and and revving up to 2500 RPMs doesn't move the car. The engine is moving at the same speed in these 3 configurations, but the speed is affected differently.

I'm not sure if I understand what you where talking about in regards to the Crazy Ivan. But, the reason a trailing sub would go to all stop in this situation is to avoid a collision. :dead:

I hope that helps explain it a little better.

[smack]

Crazy Ivan is when a sub is behind another sub, and the sub that is in front has difficulties detecting the sub behind; most of the times because the screw is breaking up the signal. The submarine in front banks to the left or to the right (also could complete a whole 360 dgs) that is done so the sonar can detect anybody behind it by turning hence the screw wont break any signal coming from behind. That is why subs that come in the wash of other subs (behind it) are virtually silent to the enemy because they are coming in behind the screws.

I hope you understand now.

Anyway enough about the propellers lol... I hold my opinion on that piece of graphics but its not important anyways.



Thank you for answering the qs in the first post guys, really helped me make my decision even more solid!

[Nippelspanner]

Hello everybody,

I am planning to purchase the game, because I feel it is much better than Sub Command and it has way more realism added to it. I am very excited about it and wanted to ask a few questions:

1. When you stop the Submarine, does the propeller stop or it keeps rotating like in Sub Command? I found that unrealistic and irritating.

2. Do you have any control on the bow/stern planes? Another thing that should have been added earlier.

3. Do you have any control on the ballast tanks? (Ex: Blow all the ballast from the forward tanks) I think should be a great addition if it is not in the game, maybe in the next patch.

4. Can you reverse the propellers? When you give the order for All Back 1/3 -> Emergency the propellers should reverse motion.

5. Can you communicate with allied platforms via the antenna or by other means?

6. Is the radio message floating wire longer? (In Sub Command it is very short)

7. Can you emergency dive the ship?




And now a few things I would like added hopefully in the next game:

I. Battle Stations mode (Click a button and the stations are with red light and crew is more alert)

II. 1st person option (Choose to See the rest of the crew and give them commands individually and wonder around the submarine and its compartments, ie. Not likely but its cool to dream lol)

III. Use morse code to communicate between platforms (It will have a guide in the sub on usage) and also via the antenna and to ask for help ect..

IV. Flags on the different platforms to point out origin.

V. Drills on the sub (the least drills you perform the worse the crew will be to able to manage situation/ optional selection from the Options Menu)

VI. "Disaster" Option (It would be an option selectable from the options menu where at any point during a mission or not depending on random selection, there will be a problem that would cause damage and needs repair)

VII. Abandon The Ship (An option selectable from the orders menu to evacuate the crew and scuttle the boat, the crew will be on rafts visible in the water and could make way points for them to reach to an allied platform or wait for one before debrief)





And these are a few off the top of my head... Sorry for the long writing, but I get passionate and visionary when it comes to submarine games and want them as realistic as possible. ;)

Thank you for reading this long dream of mine. I hope you can answer the questions about the game since I am planning to purchase it in mid December.

Thank you folks!

Im no DW expert, but I own it and I have the feeling that you miss-understood the game a bit. Your questions are very...unrelated to DW. In this game, it doesnt matter if the screws are doing anything at all actually. The graphics are pretty bad, effects are rare and you should sit in front of the map or any sensor-screen all the time anyway. Not much time for graphicdetails ;o)

Why dont you try out the Demo? I cant give you a link, but Im sure google can.

[smack]

I know the game, its like Sub Command on steroids (improved). I own Sub Command and was just wondering about a few details that I found irritating or unrealistic in the previous game.

Thanks for the tips, you don't sound very enthusiastic about it, I hope you are not one of the people who has the game and it is "dangerously" collecting dust on the shelve lol. :lol:

[AirHippo]

I realise you probably can't answer this, BN, but would I be particularly wide of the mark if I were to suggest that the reason you'd prefer to keep the shafts rotating, even if only at very low revs, would relate to lubrication? Specifically of the propeller shaft bearings, turbine spindle bearings etc. Just curious, and I understand you may be incommunicado.

Incidentally, smack, the screw could also be made to rotate - albeit in reverse - by the flow of water past its blades. As you say, simple physics; if the screw is not being rotated in one direction to cause a flow of water in another direction, the process can work in reverse providing there's no brake on the shaft. Just a thought.

While on the subject, I should here provide a note of caution. Optimum realism is all very well, but what we have access to, as civilians, is never going to give us true realism. Short of conducting a simultaneous, worldwide electronic raid on every Navy on earth's records and information, we're never going to get true "realism", merely a pale approximation. Furthermore, a submarine simulation is already a complicated business for the player as it is. I don't bother with SC or DW multiplayer, because I'm more interested in commanding the sub as and when I choose than in spending hours bouncing between stations.

[Hitman]

I'm no expert here, but I think a stopped (blocked) propeller would make noise if the sub is still moving or a water current flowing through the blades. A propeller where the shaft is disconnected from the engine (Like a car with transmission in neutral gear i.e. no gear) would leave the propeller free to rotate as the water flow impulses it, but in this situation again it might produce small noises.

In any case, it's just a graphics thing, the real effect of stopping the engine in the enemy sensors is present anyway.

[Frame57]

"Give me angles and dangles or give me death...":D

[smack]

I realise you probably can't answer this, BN, but would I be particularly wide of the mark if I were to suggest that the reason you'd prefer to keep the shafts rotating, even if only at very low revs, would relate to lubrication? Specifically of the propeller shaft bearings, turbine spindle bearings etc. Just curious, and I understand you may be incommunicado.

Incidentally, smack, the screw could also be made to rotate - albeit in reverse - by the flow of water past its blades. As you say, simple physics; if the screw is not being rotated in one direction to cause a flow of water in another direction, the process can work in reverse providing there's no brake on the shaft. Just a thought.

While on the subject, I should here provide a note of caution. Optimum realism is all very well, but what we have access to, as civilians, is never going to give us true realism. Short of conducting a simultaneous, worldwide electronic raid on every Navy on earth's records and information, we're never going to get true "realism", merely a pale approximation. Furthermore, a submarine simulation is already a complicated business for the player as it is. I don't bother with SC or DW multiplayer, because I'm more interested in commanding the sub as and when I choose than in spending hours bouncing between stations.

Of course, I am not saying go through every CIA/KGB file and help make the game more realistic lol. What I mean is graphics wise. Silent Hunter 4 has the best graphics for a sub sim so far, the game is 6GBs and it looks pretty good (aside from the bugs). So why can't they make the same size (or bigger) sub sim with modern subs? Use different engine for the graphics ect. I mean when you compare the sea realism, SC and DW look like a games from '92 compared to SH4. So why not make the game bigger, add more things, get amazing graphics and realism like in SH4 or better with most of the bugs fixed and sell it (and downloadable patches of course).

Its a better market strategy to just make a big game with the best you can do and sell it, because people will be interested. When you make the game small like SC, not many people buy it and it takes longer for them to learn about the product, I accidentally found SC like 6-7 years ago, it was virtually an unknown to me whilst I knew command and conquer and was looking for that. So as a customer if you mentioned SC to me a few years back I would have thought you were asking me about a movie...

My point is that Ubisoft got it right, make a huge sim as realistic as possible and continue the series, each one is a bit bigger and has more cool options and realism, in this way you keep people interested and people know about it since the graphics are impressive. As mentioned above, the graphics of the SC and DW are not at that level. I am waiting for the next game, just hope I am not too old by then lol.

I hope people catch my drift on this lol....


As for the damn propeller... It sounds logical to stop, but there are propellers that rotate ect... so there is no point in arguing something that in both cases is true. Some propellers keep turning, while others stop. I was pissed about the fact the damn propeller didn't slow down, so when I am going 25 kts and then stop the propeller is still going with the same #'s of rotations/sec, which is not what happens in real life, I think some of the guys from DW need to spend some more time on this forum, I see a lot of great ideas by many people. The more input from us, the better!

[Molon Labe]

My point is that Ubisoft got it right, make a huge sim as realistic as possible and continue the series, each one is a bit bigger and has more cool options and realism, in this way you keep people interested and people know about it since the graphics are impressive. As mentioned above, the graphics of the SC and DW are not at that level. I am waiting for the next game, just hope I am not too old by then lol.

I hope people catch my drift on this lol....

You're talking about emersiveness, not realism.

With the exception of the flags issue on the wishlist, the graphical blemishes you've complained of have no impact on the sim and are entirely cosmetic. If they were fixed, the simulation would not be any better, but you would have a better feeling of "being there."

Spitting hairs I suppose, but maybe it'll keep people from wasting time arguing about things they don't really disagree about.:yep:

[goldorak]

[
You're talking about emersiveness, not realism.


Emersiveness is as important as realism (now I agree that the kind of emersiveness of a modern subsim is different from that of a WW I or WW II subsim but that doesn't change the issue).
Even if we use 2d stations, the amount of detail that goes in representing those stations is as important as the kind of information they convey to the player. 3d also has a role to play, albeit much less prominent than what you would find in a WW I/II subsim.

Look at these images (2d not 3d) and I dare you to tell me how they wouldn't improve the emersiveness of dangerous waters if we actually by miracle had something like this. :)

http://x7buza.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pO_7gpZ7CB-Nm4J1EdnS_KeD4jn1ItxfEWnVOkJFFRFs7IHgzAuuSt3LKVdPm-1fPHBXWCOuZ5Cw/fastattack1.JPG
http://x7buza.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pMBKhc2s17qFFILXgzXr1ttClaDBGqGM9_nBLOIQk9zcJwlY RVJphGLJKCUqqR4JtP4zwinJP0wg/fastattack2.JPG
http://x7buza.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pw6hc4UPWxchNGQENA9J9fhooZfmI0PggGKYjmmDR-0e30c5wJ2i2kj0hjdnI67ukGcp1qgwMJVo/fastattack3.JPG
http://x7buza.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pdGd-b4K2ZSVp1nEn2EB8K6FjLKdIOVxU_nbZfhHaTFDZalW0VTWIyp JV2XMrlAK1kUB0qnpxRcA/fastattack4.JPG
http://x7buza.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p8FUm0QTc4rqLQrpP_S26hhFbZ6hxgpzMynCp3c2TUu_XalZ-ro5-tyeB8A6frh-GsMOJ_yOMRf4/fastattack6.JPG

[kgsuarez]

I actually prefer the dated graphics of DW to those of SHIII/IV for a few reasons. My computer is old and can't handle advanced graphics very well, so a smaller game runs a whole lot better. And, call me crazy, but I really enjoy the nostalgia that dated graphics evoke. These days there are too many games that look fantastic but play horribly.

I set my graphics to the lowest possible setting... :|\\

[Molon Labe]

[
You're talking about emersiveness, not realism.

Emersiveness is as important as realism (now I agree that the kind of emersiveness of a modern subsim is different from that of a WW I or WW II subsim but that doesn't change the issue).
It is for a lot of players, and I'd like to have more of it too. I never said it wasn't important, I just said that it's silly to have people arguing about something they agree on because they're confusing concepts.


Look at these images (2d not 3d) and I dare you to tell me how they wouldn't improve the emersiveness of dangerous waters if we actually by miracle had something like this. :) I think not having the text on the stations written in English for a US platform pretty much destroys any emmersiveness that was possible. For the most part though, I'd put realistic stations more in the realism column than the emmeriveness column, because the interface determines what information is available, what actions can be performed, and how they can be performed. There are certainly elements of both, though. For emmersion in stations, you'd want to do it 3D, have the ability to move though the ship, have ambient sound, be able to see crew members, see the lights flicker when the ship gets hit, etc.

[goldorak]

[quote=goldorak]
It is for a lot of players, and I'd like to have more of it too. I never said it wasn't important, I just said that it's silly to have people arguing about something they agree on because they're confusing concepts.


Ok


I think not having the text on the stations written in English for a US platform pretty much destroys any emmersiveness that was possible. For the most part though, I'd put realistic stations more in the realism column than the emmeriveness column, because the interface determines what information is available, what actions can be performed, and how they can be performed. There are certainly elements of both, though. For emmersion in stations, you'd want to do it 3D, have the ability to move though the ship, have ambient sound, be able to see crew members, see the lights flicker when the ship gets hit, etc.

Oh c'mon Molon Labe I was making an example. Of course the stations are written in english, they represent the stations of a 688/688i. :) Obviously if we had the same quality stations for the akula they would be in russian (and toggable in english for gameplay purposes), if they were to represent a french sub they would be in french and so on.
We obviously disagree on what constitues realism and emersiveness in a simulator.
For me, the realism aspect is linked to the game engine, how well does it adheres to reality. How realistic is the sonar model, how realistic is the modeliing of physics and so on.
Emersiveness (either in the 2d variant or 3d variant) is linked on the other hand to the interface. And therefore to how the relevent information is represented and conveyed to the player. Here are improtant the artistic sense of the 2d station, of the 3d model of the sub, of the environment, the sea, the sky, the stars, the coastline, the ports with the buildings etc...

[PeriscopeDepth]

I think not having the text on the stations written in English for a US platform pretty much destroys any emmersiveness that was possible.
It's just the German version of the game. Fast Attack definitely had English text in the American version.

And I agree, the Fast Attack interfaces hands down kick the snot out of DW's.

PD

[Molon Labe]

Yeah, I was being a little flip with the language thing. Considering I've never been aboard a 688 and have no way of knowing which version of the stations look more realistic, it's the only possible way I could have responded to the question asked directly to me. So :p:p:p:p:p,

[smack]

goldorak is right, Emersiveness is Realism. You can not have 1 without the other. As I mentioned have you seen the SH4 water graphics? WOW I mean you can not tell the difference between a real ocean and the one in the game (well in the game its better lol). The game is 6Gigs (not that big) and has more detail than SC and DW combined.

Every detail counts, its called SIMULATION, which means emulates reality, and you can't pretend you are really in a sub, when things like the propeller and the floating wire and graphics aren't realistic. I remember playing the old games of the '90s, they were horrible, and after looking at SH4 and comparing it to DW, I mean the difference is amazing. I give Ubisoft a lot of credit, because they almost perfected the graphics. What we need is realism, for those who play without the 3D it is their choise, for the rest of the 3D enthusiasts like myself we want realism in the surroundings.

The ther thing that I noticed was that the sea barely changes as a result of weather in the DW clips and snapshots, in SH4 the water has almost as real property and movement and transperency as real water. Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt that what Simulators are for?

Comparison:

DW

http://fotos.trucoteca.com/fotos/7375/DANGEROUS_WATERS-2.jpg

SH4

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h265/reno187/settingsun.jpg


I say find a new engine for the graphics and lets make the game much better.

I went to see an Indy Simulator down the board and downloaded the DEMO. The Demo's water effects were better than the DW ones, and the DEMO was far from complete from an independent group. So c'mon, people at sonalysts can do better than that. I might buy both DW and SH4 (SH4 just for the graphics and realism).

I am no expert but what SH4 did with 6Gigs is beyond me, I wonder what engine they used.


Anywayhope to see more graphical improvements for DW soon.

[MBot]

I think not having the text on the stations written in English for a US platform pretty much destroys any emmersiveness that was possible.

Considering I was 13 years old when I picked up Fast Attack, I was quite happy to have the text in german. Learning something as complex as submarine warfare in a language you do not understand is not very fun.

I think Fast Attack is a great example how to create a better "I'm there" expierience by using authentic graphics. It might not be perfectly realistic, but it has the same look as the real 688(i). In that regard it is vastly superior to the generic station graphics of HK/SC/DW. Also Fast Attack, while overall having less depth than DW, actualy has more "station realism" in some regards (no weapon-show-thruth, great fire control).

[Bubblehead Nuke]

I'm no expert here, but I think a stopped (blocked) propeller would make noise if the sub is still moving or a water current flowing through the blades.

Ding ding ding ding.. give this man a cigar!

The water flowing over the stopped surface fo the blade makes one heck of a cavitation noise. Move the flat of your hand through water rapidly and you will get the idea.

[smack]

I'm no expert here, but I think a stopped (blocked) propeller would make noise if the sub is still moving or a water current flowing through the blades.
Ding ding ding ding.. give this man a cigar!

The water flowing over the stopped surface fo the blade makes one heck of a cavitation noise. Move the flat of your hand through water rapidly and you will get the idea.

Fair point, but there are different types of shafts and propellers. So depends. Maybe for it to slow down significantly so it is still rotating but not as fast as it was while you were going 25 kts in the simulation, that would add a missing piece.


Lol am I the only person who finds the propeller thing kinda getting rusty? lol All I wanted to say with that propeller is that small things can make the difference in game play and how the player perceives and enjoys the game as a result of excellent realism.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Bubblehead Nuke thanks for the input, but how can a stopped propeller make you noisier? I have been on a submarine

Have you SERVED on a sub or just toured one?

, the propeller stops because moving though the water creates sound that can be picked up by nearby vessels. It is called moving parts, when you have things moving in the water they emit sound.

See my post about the Kilo class submarine. Just because you are not turning the screw does not mean you are not making noise. In most cases, you can turn the screw quite a bit before the screw generated noise level exceeds ownships noise level.

And its simple physics, how can the propeller spin and the sub not go forward? Its designed to propel the sub and when the sub stops, the screw should stop as well. Thats why submarines stop their engines when somebody is coming in their wash or behind the subamarine and then perform a Crazy Ivan just to be sure.

See above post.

What you THINK you know may be FAR different from what things are.

Boats do NOT stop turning the screw to listen in the baffles. You have to be making headway in order to turn to DO the Crazy Ivan

The screws have to stop. Watch any movie with subs in it and you will see the propeler stops everytime the sub stops.

Where did I say that the screw does not stop spinning to stop? You can also turn ONE RPM and move BACKWARDS if you are against the current

A stop device for application to an outboard marine engine to retain the propeller against rotation while the prop nut is being tightened or loosened. The device is T-shaped and includes side wings and a vertical leg. The wings have slots which permit the device to be slipped onto a tail plate located above the propeller. The leg extends downwardly between the blades of the propeller and engages the blades to prevent propeller rotation.

Yeah, we call it the shaft locking device. With the shaft stopped it takes about 20 seconds to engage it. Btw, the boat can be moving at 20+ knots and you can Stop and Lock the shaft if you need to.

Thurst is made by faster and faster rotations, so how can a rotating propeller stop the submarine? Its like a bycicle, can you be at one place while turning the peddals? No.

Backing bell. greatest e-ticket ride on the boat from an engineering standpoint. All ahead flank and they order a emergency crashback. You slam the ahead throttles shut and open the astern throttles. The blade REVERSES and you come to a stop REAL DANG fast.

Or you can be slow and lazy. They ring up all stop. you close the ahead throttle and the propellor 'windmills' in the water stream. The drag of the screw will slow the ship and stop it eventually.

And I dont expect them to be fixed, I expect a patch that fixes them since it is the only way, unless the developers start thinking outside of the box and use different code for some of these things, for a good code writer its not exactly a head scratcher.

You don't expect them to be fixed yet you want a patch? This is confusing to me.

[Molon Labe]

goldorak is right, Emersiveness is Realism. You can not have 1 without the other. As I mentioned have you seen the SH4 water graphics? WOW I mean you can not tell the difference between a real ocean and the one in the game (well in the game its better lol). The game is 6Gigs (not that big) and has more detail than SC and DW combined.

Every detail counts, its called SIMULATION, which means emulates reality, and you can't pretend you are really in a sub, when things like the propeller and the floating wire and graphics aren't realistic.

"Simulation" does not necessarily mean you can "pretend you are really there." All it means is that it is coded such that events occur in the program as close as technology allows to how they would happen in reality (realism). This is a mental, abstract, logical concept. Emersion--feeling like you are really there--is an emotional concept. Unless you think that thoughts are the same as feelings, it should be obvious that these cannot be the same.

A simulation can also be emmersive if that is what the designers want to focus on. But a program does not have to be emerisive to be a simulation--you could have a bare-bones program that simply tests for sonar detections based on several variable inputs that yields a binary result as an output, and it would still be a simulation, even though at no point would you ever feel like you're really operating a sonar. Nor does an emersive game necessarily have to also be a simulator--lots of FPSs will give you the feel that you're actually there being shot at but there is no attempt to make them realistic whatsoever. Hell, a good book can make you feel like you're there, even though nothing is simulated whatsoever.

If you say "you can't have one without the other" then you understand--perhaps subconsciously--that they aren't the same, but are complimentary. Realism in the simulation certainly helps emersion. But as you've noticed, when you were asking for more realism (but meant emersion) others started talking about the limits of realism because of a lack of available information--which has little to no bearing to what you've been advocating. Yet, you still insist on the fiction that they are the same.

I don't know why you and goldie seem to think that by trying to sort though the confusion that I'm somehow advocating that emersion doesn't matter. I never said that and I've already said that I think it does matter. But if you want to continue talking past other people here because you're talking about completely different things without realizing it, I'll leave you to it. Good day.

[smack]

^^^ I think we are all on different pages, never mind what I said in that quote. I was saying something totally different. "Goldie" got me confused. You are right on the simulation aspect ;)



For BN: (hope on the same page)

1. About the Crazy Ivan, of course you have to be moving so you can bank to lets say X dgs to starboard/port so the sonar can detect the contacts. I am sure we are on the same page on this, since that was what I wrote. The way I wrote it might have been misleading.

2. It was mostly touring different classes of subs, It is part of my job to inspect them (pretty much all I can say), always wanted to become a captain, but knowing people that are, sometimes make that dream possible for a few minutes.

3. Yes or cavitation. Usually all ahead standard --> Flank (depending on different classes sometimes even at ahead 2/3s) at PD or Surface. Makes noise ratio exceed own ship hence getting detected.

4. Of course you can't listen in the baffles, thats why you perform the Crazy Ivan. I do it at 10 kts / left[or right] full rudder 360 dgs turn. If near surface, slower speed. Or you can use the towed array

5. Your comment refers to real submarines, we dont have current in the game as far as I know.

6. Yes, or more simply just order to reverse the screws. But thats real life its not in the game, unless you order going backwards and watch your speed decrease before doing so. The command you are referring to I believe is " Disengage the screw".

7. A patch would be great. You didn't have to asnwer that part, I was being a little skeptical about it.

Thanks for replying BN

[Bubblehead Nuke]

6. Yes, or more simply just order to reverse the screws. But thats real life its not in the game, unless you order going backwards and watch your speed decrease before doing so. The command you are referring to I believe is " Disengage the screw".


You can not just 'disengage' the screw. Granted, on the older S5W boats, you COULD disengage the shaft from the reduction gear, it was not something done lightly. If the clutch failed then you are stuck on the EPM. Also, those boats had a LOT less shaft horspower then say a 688 or newer. Thus a clutch was a workable solution for that powertrain.

The order I was refering to was 'All Stop'. You simply shut the throttles and let the boat coast down.

The OTHER order is 'Back Emergency'. This order is actively reversing the screw to stop the boat. If you do not come off the bell as you approach zero knots you then start making sternway. BTW: a submerged sub can be DIFFICULT to control in a sternway situation.

[Neptunus Rex]

Crazy Ivan is when a sub is behind another sub, and the sub that is in front has difficulties detecting the sub behind; most of the times because the screw is breaking up the signal. The submarine in front banks to the left or to the right (also could complete a whole 360 dgs) that is done so the sonar can detect anybody behind it by turning hence the screw wont break any signal coming from behind. That is why subs that come in the wash of other subs (behind it) are virtually silent to the enemy because they are coming in behind the screws.

I hope you understand now.

Anyway enough about the propellers lol... I hold my opinion on that piece of graphics but its not important anyways.

The noise mask at the screw is called "the baffles" and the manual I believe mentions it.


Thank you for answering the qs in the first post guys, really helped me make my decision even more solid!

What you've described is a "baffle clear" and has a pucker factor of 0. :cool:

A "Crazy Ivan" is NOT a baffle clear. They do what's called a "Williamson turn" so when they come 180 degrees about, they come back down the same track they just traveled and they increase speed too. It has a pucker factor of 6 or 7. :huh:

A slick crew takes precautions and can just watch.:up:

[smack]

A Crazy Ivan is when a submarine makes a rapid and sharp turns in one direction or another so they can detect other submarines via the sonar, because sonar can NOT detect what is there right behind the submarine and that INCLUDES shifting of the baffles so the sonar can pick up anything behind your submarine.

Thats what it is in one sentence.


Here is a sketch that I made:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2049/submarinebafflesty1.png
(http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=submarinebafflesty1.png)

[Bubblehead Nuke]

What you showed is a simple baffle clear. Dead simple and just as easy to counter.

Geesh, OOD's would see this and wonder is they had a trainie at the conn on the other boat.

[SandyCaesar]

Supposedly that's no longer something to worry about in the open ocean with the advent of towed arrays, but not for older subs or in littorals, where TAs may not as useful. Still, most modern subs would just stream TAs in open oceans, wouldn't they?

Just a sidenote.

[kgsuarez]

I think at high speeds the only array that doesn't get washed out is the bow sonar. I forget what thread it was that covered this, but SeaQueen wrote a little bit about it.

I guess since the TA is being dragged through the subs wake it gets completely washed out, as do the conformal arrays. But since the bow of the boat is cutting through the water, there is less resistance or turbulence or something. :doh:

[BobbyZero]

I think at high speeds the only array that doesn't get washed out is the bow sonar. I forget what thread it was that covered this, but SeaQueen wrote a little bit about it.

I guess since the TA is being dragged through the subs wake it gets completely washed out, as do the conformal arrays. But since the bow of the boat is cutting through the water, there is less resistance or turbulence or something. :doh:

As far as DW goes, bow sonar also washes out at high speeds.
I wouldn't know exactly how bow sonar works in a real life sub, but I'd expect for it to wash out also at high speeds, simply because the water that flows over the bow part of the hull at such high speeds probably distorts the soundwaves that the array should "hear".

[smack]

I think at high speeds the only array that doesn't get washed out is the bow sonar. I forget what thread it was that covered this, but SeaQueen wrote a little bit about it.

I guess since the TA is being dragged through the subs wake it gets completely washed out, as do the conformal arrays. But since the bow of the boat is cutting through the water, there is less resistance or turbulence or something. :doh:
As far as DW goes, bow sonar also washes out at high speeds.
I wouldn't know exactly how bow sonar works in a real life sub, but I'd expect for it to wash out also at high speeds, simply because the water that flows over the bow part of the hull at such high speeds probably distorts the soundwaves that the array should "hear".

That is correct, at high speeds the background noise (water) increases and becomes noisier, hence harder to detect other contacts. You can use the towed array/hydrophone, the background noise would still be high a bit but will be quieter to rely on because it is towed behind the ship instead of the hull. The sonar has limits due to the noisiness of your own ship. Thats why submarines use Nuclear Reactors and batteries and special blades that reduce the noise of your ship. When tracking I use small speeds. In the game the background noise increases after 10 kts. and becomes harder to track. So for tracking I would recommend below 10 kts.