Real Navigation Mod coming soon...

[vanjast]

I've sucessfully scaled the scope (and Obs scope zoom levels) to the Fleet boat manuals AND incorporated the Sextant into the Obs scope.

Preliminary sextant checks are looking very good. The next trick is to get rid of the sub marker, waypoint navigation markers and other goodies, just to make it velly velly difficult for you... :lost:

More news later
:up:

[Schultzy]

How odd! I was just looking through the old celestial navigation thread a few days ago and wondering if I could get it working with RFB 1.52, but I chickened out. :lol:

I'm a novice to modding and saying that is insulting novice modders everywhere and as I love RFB too much, I didn't want to break anything by messing.

Yep, this is really great news!

Thanks :up:

[The Joker]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeessssss! I was just looking at that thread too! Right now, I just settled on a pseudo star navigation system. I made a little mod to remove the sub marker on the map, and just Ctrl+Click & mark to simulate the navigator getting a fix at times when it would be possible. Makes sailing a lot more fun!

[keltos01]

are the stars accurate enough.?
k

[wetwarev7]

Sounds great! I've been waiting for something like this to come out ever since I saw that first thread.

[vanjast]

are the stars accurate enough.?
k So far with SH3 and SH4, it would seem so.

I must just play with the the sunrise/set moonrise/set times and game clock.

I have a problem getting rid the the mouse CTL-LClick, which looks to be 'hard-coded', but this is not the end of the world.

Must ask you guys a question:
What do you think of getting rid of the navigation bar completely for this mod - This would essentially disable anything the 'computer navigator' can do ?

:up:

[Schultzy]

What do you think of getting rid of the navigation bar completely for this mod

No half measures eh? :)
I think that once I get this mod up and running, I'll probably not touch the nav bar, aside from the weather report button. However, I suppose that button could be shifted somewhere else anyway, so why not.

One vote for the yes column :)

[tater]

Make sure the moon and sun are actually ~1/2 a degree across.
:up:

[Sledgehammer427]

hmmm. i have an idea

maybe make lighthouses selectable as targets...then you can get range/position fixes from them....bouys, channel markers too maybe?

EDIT: about making the nav bar disappear...maybe have a "chicken out" option where it slides out?
then you can save/reload to reset?

[DeepIron]

I must just play with the the sunrise/set moonrise/set times and game clock.If you can fix this, I will be, frankly, amazed. I'm very curious how you're going to do a "look up" for the values needed to accurately predict these times based on what data? I don't think there is a ephemeral table in SH4... It could be done by rote calculation but the game clock is certainly *weird* in SH4 so those calculations would have to be tweaked...

Normally you'd need at least on longitude fix to get the correct time and hour offset to correct for UT. A latitude fix will determine the moon and sun azimuth.

Don't get me wrong, I hope you have great success. I've always hated being off the coast of Japan and still in darkness at 11:30 AM, etc...

Cheers. ;)

[gimpy117]

are the stars accurate enough.?
k
heck yes!! remember, first star to the right and straight on till morning! you'll get to Japan in no time!!

[vanjast]

.. but the game clock is certainly *weird* in SH4 so those calculations would have to be tweaked...
After the SH3 nav mod, I did a lot more reading with regard to ship clocks, It seems that the game clock is correct. The ship navigator has to adjust the clock according to longitude, just as it's done in the game.. this was a wierdo one for me too.
I'll look more into this and how to simpify it.
:up:

[starbird]

hmmm. i have an idea

maybe make lighthouses selectable as targets...then you can get range/position fixes from them....bouys, channel markers too maybe?


All you need are 2 fixes to find your position, no real need to have a lock for range. I guess if you knew the height of a lighthouse you could find a range tho. If the ingame maps are good enough, you could also use mountain peaks and other land features to plot your current position.

[Sledgehammer427]

my thoughts exactly

[vanjast]

Here's the Sextant inserted into the Obs-Scope.
I stopped at a British base, and asked them to modify the optics to something more suitable. The result is as follows.

The 1 degree divisions are now 16 pixels (instead of 17 :down:). This results in a slightly wider FOV ~ 2 degrees (I'm Skipper here and what I say goes - No arguments to the contrary..;) ). The FOV is scaled to compensate for this.

Doing this enables the vertical (sextant) scale to be manhandled more easily.


Preliminary Users guide :-
- Place Horizon reference on sea horizon and measure angle.
- For angles above 60, swing scope vertical to 90 and read in reverse (One has a 0.5 Degree compensation here - Nothing I can do... it's a game visual problem)
- Sextant is red, so you can see it at night.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/vanjast/ObsSextant1.jpg

One of the gazillion tests...
Don't forget that Polaris is 0.5 degrees from North, Along the line from Cassiopeia

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/vanjast/ObsSextant2.jpg

That's the scope done... Now down to the Almanacs...
Later..
:know:

[Munchausen]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeessssss! I was just looking at that thread too! Right now, I just settled on a pseudo star navigation system. I made a little mod to remove the sub marker on the map, and just Ctrl+Click & mark to simulate the navigator getting a fix at times when it would be possible. Makes sailing a lot more fun!

:ping: Radar on ... hoping you'd post the specifics of your little mod. If vanjast ever figures out how to correct or compensate for the lack of Zulu time in the game, I'll install his sextant mod ... but, until then, your fix sounds like the next best thing.

:hmm: So ... please, what changes did you make to get 'er done?

[skookum]

This is the most exciting mod I've seen in a while.

[vanjast]

Slight delay in this mod, as I've had to construct a bit of software to convert USNO almanac to SH4's almanac.... see pic below. This proggy will probably become a 'biggy' but will be free for all as it assembled from freestuff - Thanks to those concerned
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/vanjast/Cel.jpg

The proggy will write a CSV format (excel) file, or other formats (pm me) for printing.
This is just prelim - More stuff later..
:up:

[vanjast]

Make sure the moon and sun are actually ~1/2 a degree across.
:up: :D
You'll probably notice the Celestial Adjustments - 'Size' section in the proggy ;)

[Munchausen]

:up: That's gotta be the coolest celestial computation program I've ever seen.

[Satch]

[quote]

I've always hated being off the coast of Japan and still in darkness at 11:30 AM, etc...
Cheers. ;)
I assumed the game clock was on Pearl Harbor time or GMT. Anyone have thoughts on this? The QM had a GMT clock and he set all the division clocks to local time.

[Rockin Robbins]

Make sure the moon and sun are actually ~1/2 a degree across.
:up:
Find a way to put the moon in the correct position at the correct phase at all times. It's hardwired, so the deal is already broken.

[vanjast]

I can change the game sun size, but the glare surrounding the sun is a problem at the moment. The moon and sun are just pictures, that can be changed AFAIK - looking into this.
As far as putting the moon in the correct position, I'm not sure of this at the moment, but you never know.

More later
:up:

[skookum]

Just did a quick test using the periscope to roughly measure the sun's altitude and azimuth. Checked them against a perpetual almanac and was surprised to find that the numbers were in the ball park (within 5 degrees) of my very (VERY) rough measurements. Of course for this kind of mod to work, we would need to be able to measure celestial body altitudes to the minute, rather than degree. And we would somehow need to confirm the accuracy of the in game celestial sphere against marine almanacs (or generate an almanac specifically for the SH4 celestial sphere).
Celestial navigation is pretty neat. Here's a link to a good site on the subject.

http://www.celestialnavigation.net/

[vanjast]

.. Of course for this kind of mod to work, we would need to be able to measure celestial body altitudes to the minute, rather than degree.

As the game was not initially intended for this type of thing, It's going to be a matter of making do with the best we can come up with. I think the accuracy is going to be somewhere around 5 minutes of arc for Latitude measurments.


.. And we would somehow need to confirm the accuracy of the in game celestial sphere against marine almanacs (or generate an almanac specifically for the SH4 celestial sphere). Celestial navigation is pretty neat. Here's a link to a good site on the subject.
With regard to Longitude, I'm busy with a piece of software that will adapt the USNO almanac to the game alamanac. The game celestial objects/almanac are a simplified version of real life, so the idea is to try match it and produce a 'game almanac'. Here the accuracy will be down a minute of arc/time.

So all in all, with celestial nav asssited by nav logs, and visual sightings, one can produce a fairly accurate navigator for game purposes. I expect to start testing my 'almanac adapter' in the new year...

:D

[skookum]

Will I be able to plot St. Hilaire intercepts from an assumed position based on the measurements in your mod?

[vanjast]

You can as the almanac uses nearly all the same formulas. You'll have to keep accurate logs when doing running fixes.

This (or something similar) was done by someone with the SH3 version, and they claimed a 100m accuracy !!

I should make Cosine/sin Tables for manual calculations...
More later.
:cool:

[6SJ7GT]

Vanjast,

Can you use the Almanacs I made for Celestial navigation? I recently added 1939 and 1940 for the SH3 CO's to the collection of 41 to 45 almanacs for SH4.

They are in the Nautical Almanacs folder on my filefront site
http://hosted.filefront.com/6sj7gt

Mike

[Rockin Robbins]

You can as the almanac uses nearly all the same formulas. You'll have to keep accurate logs when doing running fixes.

This (or something similar) was done by someone with the SH3 version, and they claimed a 100m accuracy !!

I should make Cosine/sin Tables for manual calculations...
More later.
:cool: vanjast, you have used real celestial navigation and you know that even on dry land you're not going to get 100m accuracy (except by coincidence). At sea, 50 miles is considered a bullseye! That is why when navigating for a port, for instance, it is standard practice to know your expected error and aim to one side by a bit more than that. Then, when you encounter land, if you aimed south, for instance, you would know to turn right.

If you tried to hit the port dead on, you would be somewhere in the error cone and at landfall wouldn't know whether you were north or south of your destination. You'd have a 50% chance of turning the wrong direction!

[vanjast]

You can as the almanac uses nearly all the same formulas. You'll have to keep accurate logs when doing running fixes.

This (or something similar) was done by someone with the SH3 version, and they claimed a 100m accuracy !!

I should make Cosine/sin Tables for manual calculations...
More later.
:cool: vanjast, you have used real celestial navigation and you know that even on dry land you're not going to get 100m accuracy (except by coincidence). At sea, 50 miles is considered a bullseye! That is why when navigating for a port, for instance, it is standard practice to know your expected error and aim to one side by a bit more than that. Then, when you encounter land, if you aimed south, for instance, you would know to turn right.

If you tried to hit the port dead on, you would be somewhere in the error cone and at landfall wouldn't know whether you were north or south of your destination. You'd have a 50% chance of turning the wrong direction! Yes, I know that, I'm just repeating what somebody else claimed in the SH3 forum.

As an example when I first tried the Mod in SH3, I had my last clear night off the coast of Norway, from there dead reckoning (DR) to Scotland. Sighted land without having a clue where I exactly was - working out an approx position, plotted a course to the outer western island of Ireland. After 2 weeks of gale force seas the sky cleared enough for a quick fix - course adjustment of 10degrees and a few days later spotted the island about 5 NM off the port bow.

That was my first Nav attempt - Now I hoped to have improved the accuracy in SH4, having read volumes on navigation, which is quite interesting. :D

[skookum]

I'd like to see more light houses and better charts in SH4. I know that wartime meant blackouts and such. But combining astronav with coastal piloting by lighthouses would make navigating without the "god's eye view" much more feasable. One could then simply take one last fix to use as a reference for dead reckoning before heading for open water. At least we ton't need to account for set and drift.

[vanjast]

I'd like to see more light houses and better charts in SH4. I know that wartime meant blackouts and such. But combining astronav with coastal piloting by lighthouses would make navigating without the "god's eye view" much more feasable. One could then simply take one last fix to use as a reference for dead reckoning before heading for open water. At least we ton't need to account for set and drift.
I always had this Lighthouse idea since someone made an attempt in SH3.
Would you (or anyone) know of an historical database ('39-'45) of Lighthouses around the world.
:D

[skookum]

You could start here. (http://wlol.arlhs.com/)

It's a lost of lighthouses all over the world. Over 14000 listed.

[vanjast]

..Over 14000 listed.
WOW... Thanks
:D

[Sockeye]

I hate to hijack the thread a bit, but I suddenly got a flashback from time spent using the Heavens for updating the Apollo Guidance Computer while playing the "authentic" mode of NASSP in the space sim "Orbiter", connected to a third-party program called "Virtual AGC". Yeah, the checklist for "Program 54 - Backup IMU Realign", or "V37E 54E" if you prefer; thankfully the sim had a toggle for Celestial Markers or else I would've been digging into astronomy lessons along with everything else on my plate.

Authentic navigation really does add a whole new dimension to the "simsperience", but man, it has to be an obsession if nothing else, especially if you aren't already familiar with the intricacies and can't spend as much time learning as professionals or serious hobbyists.

I remember this girl I dated briefly at the time, who said she was looking for a guy who could talk about something other than video games, what LC was up to, and other blah. "So okay, sweetie, how 'bout Cislunar Navigation Techniques?!" :|\\

Don't take any of this as some kind of discouragement though, mates, because I definitely appreciate what's happening here!

[vanjast]

:o... I haven't had any beer today ?

Everybody has their own preferences... but all the mods make an otherwise boring game exciting to play.
Put it this way.. my kids buy these silly games.. they finish them in a month or 2, boring !!. Short attention span of sorts, or just crappy games. Crappy games I'd say.

Or you can educate yourself by playing the hardway.... it's definitely more exciting, the way Virtual Reality on the HoloDeck is supposed to be..:hmm:

[Sockeye]

Oh, I definitely agree! I'm with you all the way about keeping the mind active, opening new books and exploring territory that you'd never see otherwise. There's nothing quite like that feeling when you realize that you're right on the money, that something that was previously just a concept to you actually works.

That's why I didn't want my previous post to be taken the wrong way, because I really do appreciate the aspects of increasing the workload, taking a more active participation rather than just being along for the ride. I think what I was really intending to say, was that for me, this striving for a "realistic" experience brought me only further into The Matrix, so I had to begin taking a more moderate approach to simming. In the navigation area, this means that I limit myself to dead-reckoning for the most part, except when a maneuvering board is needed to reach an intended station. A compromise, but that's my limitation.

But the arithmetic and concepts certainly have come in handy as my studies continue :up:

[vanjast]

I'm going to take a bit longer with this..
My mother's coming down from Durban for a week, Kids school preparations, and all that real life stuff.:/\\x:

Other news:
Had a problem with the celestial formulae, did a email request but zero answer :nope:.
Anyway found a book printed in 1970 at a 2nd hand bookstore today. Explains everything in precise detail, as clear as daylight, beyond Wikis ability and any other website (even USNO) - So back to the usual when I can and I'll transfer this book into a pdf document for the Mod.

Later
:know:

[cgjimeneza]

I'm going to take a bit longer with this..
My mother's coming down from Durban for a week, Kids school preparations, and all that real life stuff.:/\\x:

Other news:
Had a problem with the celestial formulae, did a email request but zero answer :nope:.
Anyway found a book printed in 1970 at a 2nd hand bookstore today. Explains everything in precise detail, as clear as daylight, beyond Wikis ability and any other website (even USNO) - So back to the usual when I can and I'll transfer this book into a pdf document for the Mod.

Later
:know:

enjoy the visit with your mother, I know how it gets when mine comes down from Panama, but do the PDF, ever since I read my first Hornblower and later the Patrick O`brian novels Ive had this interest in celestial navigation (got a Galileo thermomether and a Goethe barometer, from amazon, of course, no use in a ship but they are cool.

luck man

[vanjast]

:up:
:arrgh!:

[vanjast]

As a social update..
We went to the 'outlaws' for supper/dinner/evening meal.
I'm totaly plastered.. really wrecked... actually drunk.
So my mother and I start 'talking' (she's plastered as well)
You know... that Mother-Son stuff, and talking about the kids/grandchildren...

You look at the 'old bag' - Your mother..
The mother that brought you into this world..
I was there, 'right there', when my kids were born...

You know .... that stuff....

[Mav87th]

Hey Vanjast

Its looking real good from the first posts and the periscopes - can you update us on the status??

[vanjast]

Hey Vanjast

Its looking real good from the first posts and the periscopes - can you update us on the status??
:oops: side-tracked with another 'quick mod', will get back to this when RL goes away..:D

[ichso]

Any news on the sub icon yet ? I play the game with the 'no map contacts' option set, but my own sub still gets this little dark round dot, which gives away it's position precisely.

That also makes approaching ships less interesting. I mean half the fun is to track the movement of your target and the other half of the fun is tracking your own movement during such an approach ^^.

I used the RealNavMod 1.3 for SH4 I found around here, and it replaces some icons (supposedly) with just transparent images, but this small dot representing my sub still remains on the nav map :88)

[vanjast]

Sorry guys... RL is getting in my way... a lot lately:damn:

Links...
Starmaps - You might have these from SH3 days.
http://www.vanjast.com//SH4NavMod/EquatorStarMap.zip (http://www.vanjast.com//SH4NavMod/EquatorStarMap.zip%20%2865MB%29) (66MB)
http://www.vanjast.com//SH4NavMod/NHemisphereStarMap.zip (36MB)
http://www.vanjast.com//SH4NavMod/SHemisphereStarMap.zip (41MB)

Documents
http://www.vanjast.com//SH4NavMod/LongitudeMath.pdf (850KB)
http://www.vanjast.com//SH4NavMod/MoonSun39_45.pdf (225KB)
http://www.vanjast.com//SH4NavMod/navstarchart.pdf (1.5MB)
http://www.vanjast.com//SH4NavMod/SFAStarChartsAll.pdf (526KB)

ObsScope Sextant
.... is in the following Mod. This mod scales all the scopes to their 'correct RFB' dimensions. You will probably have to make changes manually - the instructions are contained in the PDFs PLEASE read these.
http://www.vanjast.com/SH4Mod/AOBWheel.zip (7.5MB)

ichso
You're probably looking for these files - Read the contained ReadMe for info.
One can just extract the dds files that you want.
http://www.vanjast.com//SH4NavMod/RealNavTesting.zip (9KB)

I will eventually get back to this, but this lot should help you 'most of the way'

:up:

[ichso]

But that doesn't disable the map contact update, does it ?

I disabled those in the realism settings but still get a small icon displayed on the nav map when zoomed in for every ship my crew is able to spot.
This also gives away my own position - roughly, but still.

[vanjast]

Your sub small dot dissapears.. It's what I'm currently using.

I set no map updates, etc.. in career mode and I only see the little square box for either a ship or a task force when a message appears, otherwise nothing else.

You might have to explore the mods and pull out what you need.
The mod readme files have all the info.

:D