Twenty killed on Russian submarine (merged)

[CCIP]

Looks like a real tragedy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7718156.stm

Alright, what actually happened here? Anyone have any more information?

[CCIP]

Alright, details beginning to emerge, the cause is still unclear beyond a fire extinguishing system failure.

The boat was on sea trials and had 208 people on board, most of whom were civilian (with only 81 being military personnel).

The boat has not officially been named, but is most likely the Akula-class Nerpa, which would be a match since she'd be likely to be on sea trials now - the boat had been recently working up as part of her sale to the Indian navy, to which she was due to be transferred in 2009.

[Oberon]

(EDIT'd Since CCIP analysis of the boats ID is highly likely correct.)

A bloody tragedy, RIP to those poor guys and prayers for their families :(

[Ramius]

Sorry, just re-read the article.

Obviously must be fitted with some kind of "drench" system, possibly Halon or Nitrogen.
Not the way to go :(

RIP

[PeriscopeDepth]

May the sailors RIP.

Over 200 people on an Akula? Sounds crowded. I imagine it was a rather chaotic scene.

PD

[Thomen]

Alright, details beginning to emerge, the cause is still unclear beyond a fire extinguishing system failure.

The boat was on sea trials and had 208 people on board, most of whom were civilian (with only 81 being military personnel).

The boat has not officially been named, but is most likely the Akula-class Nerpa, which would be a match since she'd be likely to be on sea trials now - the boat had been recently working up as part of her sale to the Indian navy, to which she was due to be transferred in 2009.

I knew I had read about the Nerpa before..
It was mentioned in an article on the SubSim main page couple of days ago..

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19146&sectionid=22&issueid=31&Itemid=1

[CCIP]

Looking further at Russian sources here - the system involved was based on Khladon-114B2, which is a Freon-based refrigeration compound that is indeed used as part of the drenching system on the sub in all compartments except the reactor.

Still no official name for the sub, but the Udaloy DDG Admiral Tributz is known to have been accompanying the sub on trials and took on the casualties; it is due to arrive back ashore to transfer the casualties shortly.

Currently the report says "more than 20" killed, and another 21 non-lethal casualties of various degrees of severity, all currently aboard Admiral Tributz.

[edit] - interesting tidbit about Admiral Tributs - that ship suffered an accidental on-board fire in which she was heavily damaged in 1991. According to Wiki, her sister ship Marshal Shaposhnikov, which is also in the Pacific Fleet, was also severely damaged by a fire just this september.

Great safety record they've got in that fleet :shifty:

[edit 2] - although before I blame the fleet, it should be noted that Nerpa was/is not yet commissioned. Officials are already blaming the shipbuilder, who is responsible for the boat until it is commissioned.

[Marcantilan]

A real tragedy. RIP.

[Task Force]

Sad that stuff like this happens. RIP to them, and best of luck to there familys.

[SteamWake]

My god... what a tragity. I pray for them.

I watched the file "The Widow Maker" the other night, makes one wonder as to the Russians attitude of safety vs mission.

[MothBalls]

Tragic and really sorry to hear about this.

Something that bothered me in the article;

Military prosecutors are investigating the incident.

This makes it sound like they are searching for blame and not the cause.





RIP

[CCIP]

This makes it sound like they are searching for blame and not the cause.

Yes, unfortunately this is how things often work in Russia. As I mentioned, the government is already starting to clean its' hands of this by blaming the shipbuilder, suggesting that the civilian workers aboard were a factor and the ship, not being commissioned, is the factory's responsibility and not the navy's.

To quote my favorite song about the Kursk tragedy,


Later of what happened here,
For so long they'll lie...
Will the commission ever tell
How hard it is to die?

Actually, would be quite appropriate to link that song/video now as a memorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luOBPfrvYvY

:(

[Yorktown_Class]

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4A738V20081108

[McBeck]

What a tragedy! :cry:

[XabbaRus]

It's the same everywhere though especially so in Russia.

I remember when that Upholder going to Canada had an incident and a crewman died, the blame game started pretty quickly.

I wonder if someone pressed the wrong button. Human error quite often is the most likely cause.

[AntEater]

:(
RIP

Since I can't read russian, I don't have the latest news on that, but from my perspective it seems that the automatic firefighting system was triggered in one compartment, either by accident or maybe by oversensitivity.
Since the sub was kind of overcrowded with shipyard personell, maybe there were not enough rebreathers for all in the compartment, so those who got one survived and most of those who didn't died.
Maybe the compartment would have around a dozen people with a standard crew and now it had twice as many.
Since there were injuries, it seems they opened the compartment pretty fast.

I was pretty sick of reading the usual "drunken incompetent russians" comments on german news (not naval) forums :(

[CCIP]

Well, the medical staff have confirmed that the cause of death for those killed was Freon poisoning. The casualties include 17 civilians and 3 navy crewmen killed, and 21 injured.

Apparently the submarine was submerged when the incident took place and the compartment bulkheads were locked, which both contained the incident, but also made it impossible to escape.

Interestingly, all of the crew, both military and civilian, are supposed to carry a portable oxygen bottle for breathing in these instances, at all times. Obviously the alarm is also supposed to go off to let them know to use the oxygen. The speculation now is that either they were not carrying their breathers, which would be a gross violation of safety, or that perhaps the alarm did not go off and they didn't know about the gas until it was too late.

[Jimbuna]

Well, the medical staff have confirmed that the cause of death for those killed was Freon poisoning. The casualties include 17 civilians and 3 navy crewmen killed, and 21 injured.

Apparently the submarine was submerged when the incident took place and the compartment bulkheads were locked, which both contained the incident, but also made it impossible to escape.

Interestingly, all of the crew, both military and civilian, are supposed to carry a portable oxygen bottle for breathing in these instances, at all times. Obviously the alarm is also supposed to go off to let them know to use the oxygen. The speculation now is that either they were not carrying their breathers, which would be a gross violation of safety, or that perhaps the alarm did not go off and they didn't know about the gas until it was too late.

Your alarm theory could well be right when you consider the article states:

The BBC's Richard Galpin in Moscow says that in normal cases of a fire on board a submarine, the area would be evacuated and sealed off before pumping in freon gas.

However:

6 Sept 2006: Two die after fire in Viktor-III class Daniil Moskovsky
28 Aug 2003: Nine die after decommissioned November class K-159 sinks
12 Aug 2000: 118 die in sinking of Oscar-II class Kursk
7 Apr 1989: 42 die after fire in Soviet-era Komsomolets


Is not a very impressive safety record :nope:

[CCIP]

However:

6 Sept 2006: Two die after fire in Viktor-III class Daniil Moskovsky
28 Aug 2003: Nine die after decommissioned November class K-159 sinks
12 Aug 2000: 118 die in sinking of Oscar-II class Kursk
7 Apr 1989: 42 die after fire in Soviet-era Komsomolets


Is not a very impressive safety record :nope:
Well, mind you, the first (and worst) of those two took place at a very different time for Russia, especially economically. Putin & co. have been pushing for the idea of a resurgent Russia where things like that don't happen - alas it's often a ruse. Military prestige is a big idea, but often doesn't match up to reality. Just like the fact that, for all the muscle flexing, independent observers report Russians using woefully obsolete equipment in the Georgia conflict, perhaps because the high-tech stuff wasn't running for lack of funding as usual. Russians are also notorious for having a lot of teething troubles with their equipment even after it enters service (the BMP-3, for instance, was notoriously hated in Chechnya because for all its high-tech features, it was basically rushed into combat in a non-working condition, and its ballistics computer and stabilizing system were broken).

That said, something like this could probably happen on any sub, unfortunately. Especially in a testing period like this.

From the casualty numbers, I would venture to guess two compartments were involved, not one. 41 people is 1/5th of all aboard - I doubt that many would've been in one of the forward compartments at one time, especially since it's speculated that the incident started in the torpedo room.

[MothBalls]

BBC posted a graphic;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7718604.stm

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45189000/gif/_45189018_akula_2_466.gif
1. Fire extinguishers switched on in front of submarine for unknown reasons
2. Affected area may have been sealed off, trapping personnel inside
3. Freon gas released by fire extinguishing system to remove oxygen
4. Twenty people die and 21 are injured - reportedly poisoned

The authorities say the submarine's nuclear reactor is not affected, the injured are sent for treatment and the vessel returns to port

[Red Heat]

My god... what a tragity. I pray for them.

I watched the file "The Widow Maker" the other night, makes one wonder as to the Russians attitude of safety vs mission.

Me too...last night before i go to sleep i so one more time the K-19...
What a tragedy another acident in sea tests i will light a candle for the crew and families! :cry:

http://www.euronews.net/en/article/09/11/2008/russian-nuclear-sub-accident-leaves-20-dead/

[Frame57]

My god... what a tragity. I pray for them.

I watched the file "The Widow Maker" the other night, makes one wonder as to the Russians attitude of safety vs mission.Some of the scuttlebutt we used to hear in the navy was that the navy went out on a limb in a humanitarian effort to help the Soviets with reactor safety issues during the cold war. I do not how factual this is but that was the buzz back then.

[wild bill]

At least 20 people died Saturday when a fire safety system malfunctioned on a Russian submarine (Akula class). freon gas, used to stop fires, killed twenty one persons on board. The boat returned to base on it's own power.

wild bill

[scrag]

Freon is bad stuff it displaces Oxygen in your lungs and you are a dead man - you can not purge your lungs from it - that is one foolish design - we freak when we have a minor leak from one of our systems.

[D'biter]

that was the Akula II that Russia was lending to India, right?

[HunterICX]

Already has been posted here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=144168

also it got more information about the incident :yep:

HunterICX

[SteamWake]

As I posted somewhere else there is much safer extinguishing agents available.

Freon was commonly used as a referigerant in air conditioning systems. Its use was banned in the US when fears of it depleting the ozone layer were expressed. Freon was never used as an extinguishing agent to my knowledge. In fact I believe the article may have misspoke mistaking Freon for Halon.

A more common agent was Halon, its use has also been banned for 'new' installations. It was in common use for computer rooms where the use of water would be catastrophic. However it had real safety issues as you can see from this accident.

As I said its use is now banned and it is to be removed from any existing installations if you spend 10 cents on remodeling. The alternatives while safer are more expensive.

Here is a lengthy article on the subject http://www.halcyon.com/NAFED/HTML/Halonalt.html

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Actually, it is probably Freon according to Romanov (Fire at Sea). They apparently bought the stuff from Japan, and they presumably used the stock (yeah, if you are the Russian Navy, you would be spending your very finite rubles on more expensive fire-fighting gas...)

[Dmitry Markov]

Poor guys. People who served in our navy say that most accidents usually happen on the test runs before a vessel comes into comission. Especially on subs - because even in normal situation a lot depends on discipline and skills of crew, but when unfit ship in sea is overcrowded with civilian personnel who doesn't have much notion of sea ways and sub service - beware for the trouble...
As for Freon - our industry doesen't produce it since they've signed an agreement for Environment Care - but there is a lot of it in stock and an agreement doesn't forbid to use previously produced Freon. And as Nerpa is of the old design - probably they've decided not to change the project and to use the system with the stocked gas.
Sad anyway...

[Konovalov]

In this article (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/11/13/russia.submarine/index.html)today:


A committee investigating the accident aboard the Pacific Fleet sub said Thursday that the crew member "for no particular reason activated the submarine's anti-fire system."

The Prosecutor General's Office has launched a criminal case against the person, who was not named. He is expected to be charged with carelessness resulting in the death of two or more people, the office said in a statement.


Didn't take long to lay the blame.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

To be fair, if this is true, this Grobov deserves more than seven years.

Manslaughter, 20 guys
20 more injured
Sabotage to equipment
Harmed Russian prestige and pride (incalculable national security interest) - since the world compartmentalizes Western accidents and generalizes Russian ones).

Roasting him alive in a cerematorium is too kind a punishment ... if he did it, of course.