Do you always report a convoy?

[ncorpuz34]

I start a new career in an S-boat early in the war (no radar) and a couple of days into the patrol, at about 0200 I come off TC as my SO reports multiple contacts. On my binocs I spot 3 destroyers doing a sweep towards my area and the reflections of at least 6 more bigger ships more off into the horizon. Looks like something big! Am I detected? Im not sure, the destroyers aren't "steaming towards my location" so I assume not. I make a radio report of the contact back to base and wait for the response. I am ordered to "Sink IJN Warships" and my mission objects are updated.

Hmm...easier said than done.

So I submerge and get on the sonar. I make a few pings on which in the end turn out to be a convoy of about 6 merchant ships, 3 big passenger liners, 1 cruiser and 6 DDs. The front 3 DDs are now in my area with spots lights but dont know my exact location. Since no surface radar, and my crew is having a hard time maintaining a visual, I had to use active sonar to calculate a heading and range of the convoy. I turns out im in a bad position to attack and as half the convoy has already passed me and is about 5000 yrds away. I sneak past the 3 DDs to get within range. Forced to pass up the juicy 10k ton passenger liners, I turn my attention towards the cruiser and notice through the periscope that the convoy is already on alert and is doing zig-zags. I usually use the O' kane or Cromwell method but since I had no early warning about the convoy, I have to use the good ol TDC. I am forced to get contact range readings using active sonar due to a bug in the new RFB 1.52 not being able to hold a lock on a ship (inhibiting the stadimeter). But at this point didnt matter since the convoy is already doing evasive manuevers. I try to get the best solutions with the TDC before firing off my 4 fish in a spread hoping to hit the cruiser. All miss. Frustrated, I break off the attack and go deep to avoid the DDs and decided to live to fight another day.

Okay now onto my question(s):
Am I expected to always report a convoy no matter what?

There was another time when I spotted the a large IJN convoy and in a good position (Battleships, Carriers, Cruisers), I make a report and get a message somehting like "We have been notified of the convoy, will send out additional forces to deal with them. Attack at your own descretion" So I wasn't FORCED to sink any of the ships. (I was in good position, I did anyway, ending up taking out 1 BB and 1 Cruiser).
In this case I was hoping to get that same msg but guess it didn't happen.

So if I sank 10 ships on this patrol but if none of them were warships, do I fail the mission?

Now I know at least to TRY to get in a better position before making a report but in this case was a bit difficult as I had no radar to determine the convoy's heading and range. My deckcrew seemed to be asleep as well so no visual updates (Contacts came to within 2000yrds, clear weather, excellent visibility, during the night) except for my own eyes (another feature of the extreme 'realism' of the new RFB?:hmm:)

Should I have even made at report in my (bad) position? Even though my mission objects said to report any convoys spotted in the patrol area first before any action is taken (Im also running RSRD). I assume IRL, there was no question about it.

[Kruger]

I did not se any useful effect in reporting convoys and task forces. There are no friendly AI's willing to join the battle, no planes to come and help you, no nothing. You will just receive the eye-candy radio message back to instruct you to make the attack...or not :x

[Rockin Robbins]

I always report convoys and single contacts. It adds renown to your score.

If your mission is to sink warships and you do not, then you fail. But escorts are warships and usually you can persuade one to do battle. Welcome to the wonderful world of radarless S-boats. On the dinner menu is a lot of frustration, followed by limited success and hopefully survival.

[Diopos]

Don't ping when they're warships around! Much more so when they're alot of DDs around! You "announce" yourself! Good for tea parties, bad for sub warfare! :yep:
:D

[Fattysbox]

When you pinged you caused the convoy to zig zag. Don't ping next and its much easier to get in to position. Dive deep when those 3 DDs are close, let them pass and pop up to PD... Convoy should be right in front of you. At least thats my strategy...

[SteamWake]

You are not 'expected' to report but I usually try to report the contacts, its not always possible and sometimes as you have found out they will task you with disrupting the convoy. Which again is not always possible.

As the others have said pinging for range while the escorts are on point is a bad idea. Its kind of like ringing the dinner bell and shouting "Here I am come and get me !" When the whole idea is to not let them know your there till stuff starts blowing up. Next time pop up your scope for a few moments and use that to get your range. Just dont forget to put it back down again :rotfl: . Get some 'situational awarness' and try to use the passive sonar to track your targets. It will give you rough estimates to range (actually too good but thats another topic).

[tomoose]

IRL, yes, as a skipper you'd be expected to report whenever possible any significant enemy movement as that provides the Intelligence gurus one more piece of the huge puzzle and could influence operational or even strategic decisions.

In the game, I don't think there's anything gained by not reporting. As you say it might depend on the response you get back on the radio but you don't get any response from HQ if you don't report.

[tater]

Actually, in RL a USN sub skipper would almost NEVER report a contact.

It was only likely they would do so if they carried specific orders to, and even then they'd not do so unless it was impossible for them to attack, and only then if it was a high-value target. They were very very concerned about enemy DF gear.

I NEVER report contacts, though I know the game wants me to, I simply cannot suspend disbelief and do so.

The real "silent service" was indeed silent. When we started messing with small pack tactics (3 boats, usually) it was hard to get the skippers to even use short range radios with 3 letter code groups because they were so totally used to the doctrine of "no radio use, EVER."

The range to make contact reports in SH4 is grossly short. To have any sense of realism, the range should be set from 4500 yards or whatever it is to maybe 25,000 yards. Any such reports should only be made if there is ZERO chance of making an end around, and only then if the target has real value (a task force, or decent sized convoy).

tater

[SteamWake]

Hey Tater...

I reported one last night only after sinking 5 of the ships and the rest managed to slip away while evading.

Does that count :rotfl: I mean its not like they dident know I was there. Hell one DD stuck behind at the original contact point for hours looking for me.

[Buddahaid]

Actually, in RL a USN sub skipper would almost NEVER report a contact.

It was only likely they would do so if they carried specific orders to, and even then they'd not do so unless it was impossible for them to attack, and only then if it was a high-value target. They were very very concerned about enemy DF gear.

I NEVER report contacts, though I know the game wants me to, I simply cannot suspend disbelief and do so.

The real "silent service" was indeed silent. When we started messing with small pack tactics (3 boats, usually) it was hard to get the skippers to even use short range radios with 3 letter code groups because they were so totally used to the doctrine of "no radio use, EVER."

The range to make contact reports in SH4 is grossly short. To have any sense of realism, the range should be set from 4500 yards or whatever it is to maybe 25,000 yards. Any such reports should only be made if there is ZERO chance of making an end around, and only then if the target has real value (a task force, or decent sized convoy).

tater

I disagree. The wolf packs frequently contacted each other to coordinate the attacks according to 'Silent Victory'. Also, many boats would report the contact after their attack was over and they were clear. Something you can't do in SH4! There were orders to report first and attack second issued, which you mentioned, when the boats were used as a scouting line during invasions. This was amended to shoot first after some juicy targets were missed. Again, according to Clay Blaire's 'Silent Victory'.

Buddahaid

[tater]

Even after an attack, they'd likely not do so, certainly not while any escorts or ships with radios might be around. Why? Because then they would be known to still be alive.

You attack, the escorts dump a few DCs in a desultory attack. They go back and report to their bosses that they sunk you. Heck, knowing the IJN, they report sinking TWO subs! You are now safe.

If you surface and radio, then they know they didn't sink you (or think there is a 3d sub ;) ) and either come back, or they call in air support in some areas. IJN doctrine regarding air was not all that bad. really. They'd indeed try and saturate an area and limit how far you could escape (since submerged you radius is quite small).

Anyway, the USN was not "chatty" which is a large part of the reason so few US subs were sunk. MANY German and Japanese subs were sunk because of their constant use of radio communications, it wasn't just codebreaking, plain ole DF would have done them in, too.

[Orion2012]

Depends. If I have no chance of intercepting and I make visual contact at close range and feel that I'm gonna get the crap DC'd out of me, then I fire off a report directly after ordering for emergency dive. I figure by that point, if he's lookin at me who cares what I radio.

If I have a chance to attack him, I don't dare send it until he is steaming away filling with water.


On the subject of reporting the convoy, is there not a chance of allied air support??

[tomoose]

Point taken; it would be a judgement call by the captain. e.g. A skipper sees an obvious enemy invasion task force heading in a specific direction, I think he'd call it in, I know I would knowing that DF on my moving sub would be problematic at best and the bad guys would not be able to pinpoint my location or my direction of travel.

[tater]

Actually, in RL a USN sub skipper would almost NEVER report a contact.

It was only likely they would do so if they carried specific orders to, and even then they'd not do so unless it was impossible for them to attack, and only then if it was a high-value target. They were very very concerned about enemy DF gear.

I NEVER report contacts, though I know the game wants me to, I simply cannot suspend disbelief and do so.

The real "silent service" was indeed silent. When we started messing with small pack tactics (3 boats, usually) it was hard to get the skippers to even use short range radios with 3 letter code groups because they were so totally used to the doctrine of "no radio use, EVER."

The range to make contact reports in SH4 is grossly short. To have any sense of realism, the range should be set from 4500 yards or whatever it is to maybe 25,000 yards. Any such reports should only be made if there is ZERO chance of making an end around, and only then if the target has real value (a task force, or decent sized convoy).

tater

I disagree. The wolf packs frequently contacted each other to coordinate the attacks according to 'Silent Victory'. Also, many boats would report the contact after their attack was over and they were clear. Something you can't do in SH4! There were orders to report first and attack second issued, which you mentioned, when the boats were used as a scouting line during invasions. This was amended to shoot first after some juicy targets were missed. Again, according to Clay Blaire's 'Silent Victory'.

Buddahaid

Yes, specific orders as you point out, but they were rescinded as you say.

I didn't say that our late war packs never used the radio, but rather that it was hard to convince the skippers to do so (they eventually got better at it). When they started, however, it was like pulling teeth to get them to be as chatty as they needed to be for effective pack tactics. Most boats would err on the side of silence at the beginning of wolf packs, decreasing their effectiveness.

But again, short ranged radios, and packs, something impossible in SH4 anyway.

As for after attacks were over, yeah, they might well make a radio report, but "in the clear" is important. That doesn't mean just a few thousand yards away, it means safe from retribution. Maybe the next night if it was a daylight attack, or perhaps the same night if they could run free and fast on the surface to get away from the scene. The fear would be that air units would appear and force them to remain submerged, limiting their ability to get away. If you keep a sub down long enough, it eventually has to come up, and even IJN doctrine recognized this.

So I stand by the fact that US subs (barring orders like picket boats tasked to do intel (and attack)) would shoot first, and only report if shooting was no option, or they had already attacked. Pre-attack radio contact as the only radio paradigm in game is making some tiny fraction of a percent of fleet boat comms the ONLY method in game.

As for "judgement calls" by the skipper, captains do what they were trained to do. Timing matters (within the war).

Early in the war, skippers even attacked from 100ft down since that was the doctrine at the start of the war. Those (largely older) skippers were replaced with more aggressive guys, and things changed. Silence did not change til later in the war, though. Sure, they'd likely report a TF or convoy early on if they could not attack, but again, when safe to do so. IJN DF gear was actually good, but more importantly, USN doctrine assumed it was far better than it actually was (just as they assumed that air was more capable than it really was in spotting subs).

Late in the war, they were more likely to use the radio, particularly the short range sets in packs.

The current engine seems designed around the KM's overuse of the radio to call home, then central direction from the mainland.

tater

[Rockin Robbins]

In Edward Beach and Eugene Fluckey's books, the skippers in a wolf pack tended to physically rendezvous and confer in person rather than use the radio for comparing notes and strategy sessions. They hated to use the radio according to these two authors.

[Buddahaid]

Seems we're really in general agreement. I thought you were indicated it was rarely or never done. Too bad SH4 does not allow contact reports after contact has been broken. I never do it because of that "feature".

Buddahaid

[SteamWake]

Seems we're really in general agreement. I thought you were indicated it was rarely or never done. Too bad SH4 does not allow contact reports after contact has been broken. I never do it because of that "feature".

Buddahaid

Yea... check this thread here http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=143683

[aanker]

I never make contact reports; this is Silent Hunter! .... lol

Happy Hunting!

Art

[Seminole]

I don't report ...because I can never seem to remember to do so....I guess I have some wierd-o mental block about making reports....maybe it is a form of rebelling against authority that I never outgrew.

But since you mentioned this I am going to make it a point to report from now on, at least for a while, and see what happens.

[Buddahaid]

I don't report ...because I can never seem to remember to do so....I guess I have some wierd-o mental block about making reports....maybe it is a form of rebelling against authority that I never outgrew.

But since you mentioned this I am going to make it a point to report from now on, at least for a while, and see what happens.

I don't see reporting as brown nosing to authority. Reporting a fleet contact or major resupply run would be giving a heads up to your fellow servicemen, saving lives. The sad part is SH4 does not allow one to make reports as they were really done, as I understand it. I like to play according to the doctrine of the day, not using shortcuts or whatever else that makes 100,000 ton single patrols possible. As it is, I still come in with too large "bags". In any case, making a report before attacking cannot be good advice, so I wonder why Ubi even included it. Better wrong than not at all, or a trap for added combat excitement? As I stated before, I don't do it, I just pretend I gave one after breaking off.

Buddahaid

[breadcatcher101]

If I am not in my AO I will report a convey. Sometimes I am given the green light, sometimes not. BTW your report does give the speed which comes in handy.

[SteamWake]

This darn thread almost got me sunk last night :p

I was crusing to my final patrol area with a total of two torpedoes left on the boat. One in the fore tubes, another aft both Mk 28's. It had been a busy patrol and that 'last' convoy used up alot of fish.

Radar picks up a lone merchant cruising north so we plot and intercept it as we close and prepare the shot we dive to periscope depth set up the shot make the calcs and fire ! About 40 seconds of run, when ... contact, heading for us, another, then two others, then more !... Kaboom the torpedo struck the lone merchant which set ablaze, started to list and sail in circles.

I decided to surface and set for the convoy we had picked up on sonar. "Ahead full surface the boat". We wanted to phone this one in. As soon as we broke surface "Ship spotted... two of them... Both destoyers, well within 'sighting' distance! Dammit I guess the fireworks caught their attention. Well of course they both altered their course and headed straight for us.

Take her down, fast, steer course 270, make depth 180, ahead flank. We had a little distance on the destroyers, with any luck...

On crossing 80 feet we reduced speed and went into silent running posture the DD's within 1,500 yards now. Deeper we went yet the dd's close. We leveled off at 180 just as one of the DD's went into their run. "Ahead flank, Left full rudder" a few moments later dull thuds ... phew that was close. "Ahead slow rudder amidships".

Another DD makes her run, we evade as before but turned the wrong way, two DC's detonated close, popped a bulkhead, flooding, electric engines, diesel engines, all damaged. Not to mention flooding.

We come out of silent running and call GQ and assign the usual suspects to the damage control. Ahead standard... get that damn flooding fixed !

For whatever reason the DD's layed off for a bit and gave us time to patch things up, and start pumping out water. They returned though for several passes but never found their mark. Finally the bulkhead was repaired, flooding stopped.

We need to shake these guys before they get lucky again.

Take her down to 220, ... finally on passing 200 I hear passing thermal layer. We slowed, turned south, rigged for silent, and slowly left the DD's searching for us behind. The bulk of the convoy continued more or less SxSW right at us.

After a few hours sonar confirmed no real close contacts, we surfaced, again well within 'sight' range of 'coastal' escorts. This time though within sight range of the bulk of the convoy. We quickly called it in and dived again.

Sonar confirmed the DD's were still well north of us 'searching' in the same spot we were hours ago, the coastals stood dutifully with the convoy, on passing about 80feet we got the message "Good find". Thank goodness they dident want us to prosecute with one torpedo left :p

All was good, we stayed down at ahead slow turned west to seperate us from the convoy and counted our blessings.

[I'm goin' down]

How do you report a convoy, ship or anytingh for that matter.? I could use all the renown I can muster.

[peabody]

How do you report a convoy, ship or anytingh for that matter.? I could use all the renown I can muster.

Down on the right side the button that looks like a ships wheel, click it. It brings up the clipboard (captain's log) On the first page (the tab with the ! ) When you open that page you see an envelope on the left to report status (like mission completed or whatever your status is) and on the right is a picture of a ship to report contacts, but you must be on the surface to do it. And close enough to see the whites of their eyes, and if it's Saturday after a hard Friday night the eyes are all bloodshot so you are out of luck. :lol:.

Do I make contact reports....heck NO. I sink them...all of them...well ok 1 or 2.:roll:

Peabody

[I'm goin' down]

thank you sir.

[Diopos]

...
... I sink them...all of them...well ok 1 or 2.:roll:

Peabody

:D
Spirit: :up:
Implementation::oops:
We must form a clan or something! :yep:
As in: Sea-kings of the near-miss.!:rotfl:

[tater]

We're sort of in agreement. If a USN sub made a contact report it was almost certainly after an attack, and only then if an end-around was no longer possible—the only exception literally being a handful of patrols that were explicitly ordered to report first, orders which were later changed since it was such an awful idea.

That said, such contact reports would be rare indeed, IMO, particularly earlier in the war (pre-1944).

Unfortunately the game mechanics for campaign design assume pretty constant back and forth with home, something that was entirely true of the KM and IJN, but something almost completely untrue of USN doctrine.

I imagine the number of KM and IJN subs sunk due to breaking radio silence is some multiple of the total number of USN subs sunk to all causes.

[Sailor Steve]

I agree with what RR and tater have been saying. I think the one time a report would be practically required is if something huge - a big convoy or a monster task force - was seen at a distance, and the reporting sub was in no possible position for an attack; or had attacked and there were still valuable targets to be reported. And even then it would be reported after it was well out of sight over the horizon, lessening the chance of retribution.

So that sums up the original problem: you can only make a report if the target is in visual range, and that is the one time they most certainly would not make a report.

[peabody]

...
... I sink them...all of them...well ok 1 or 2.:roll:

Peabody
:D
Spirit: :up:
Implementation::oops:
We must form a clan or something! :yep:
As in: Sea-kings of the near-miss.!:rotfl:

I am not just a member of Sea-kings of the near-miss, I am the President.:rotfl:

Peabody

[tater]

Actually, you can only make a report inside 4500m. I never make them, so I'm not sure, do you have to be surfaced, too? That's insanely close, regardless.

[SteamWake]

Actually, you can only make a report inside 4500m. I never make them, so I'm not sure, do you have to be surfaced, too? That's insanely close, regardless.

yes you have to be surfaced... Funny thing is you will get a reply regardless of depth :doh:

[Goose_green]

I don't normally send a sighting report for convoys...maybe 'cos I hardly ever see them. If we had some bonus renown or somthing for making the effort then I would do so more often ;)

[SteamWake]

I don't normally send a sighting report for convoys...maybe 'cos I hardly ever see them. If we had some bonus renown or somthing for making the effort then I would do so more often ;)

Yes you get brownie points for reporting them.

Catch is sometimes they will tell you to attack, and well you just cant, so then you lose brownie points.

Ive had best luck by attacking them first, then as they slip away (as they always seem to do) then report them.

But thats just a 'game' thing.

[<Jason>]

noob question:

how do you report a sighting? :-?

[ncorpuz34]

noob question:

how do you report a sighting? :-?

Scroll up to Peabody's post (#24)

[Goose_green]

I don't normally send a sighting report for convoys...maybe 'cos I hardly ever see them. If we had some bonus renown or somthing for making the effort then I would do so more often ;)
Yes you get brownie points for reporting them.

Catch is sometimes they will tell you to attack, and well you just cant, so then you lose brownie points.

Ive had best luck by attacking them first, then as they slip away (as they always seem to do) then report them.

But thats just a 'game' thing.

I didn't realise you got brownie points for reporting in :o Is it extra renown? Or a polite reply from the brass to go kick some butt?

[Rockin Robbins]

I didn't realise you got brownie points for reporting in :o Is it extra renown? Or a polite reply from the brass to go kick some butt? http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=976390&postcount=3

[Goose_green]

I didn't realise you got brownie points for reporting in :o Is it extra renown? Or a polite reply from the brass to go kick some butt? http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=976390&postcount=3

How do you know that you gain extra renown?

[aanker]

I didn't realise you got brownie points for reporting in :o Is it extra renown? Or a polite reply from the brass to go kick some butt? http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=976390&postcount=3
How do you know that you gain extra renown?
Open:
Data\Campaigns\Campaign\DynamicMiss\ContactReport 01\ContactReport 01.mis - for example - with a plain text editor like Notepad.

See the line:
RenownAwarded=250 in the [Objective 1] section.

But like I said before, I don't report them for historical reasons - not to mention you're giving your position away etc, etc.

Happy Hunting!

Art

[breadcatcher101]

I remember reading somewhere back in WW2 about the policy at that time was to report first then attack. Only thing is, you would have to wait until the task force was gone before you would be able to report and by that time it was too late to attack.

Can't remember if it was Christie or Lookwood's policy, but there was a Japanese battleship group (or maybe carrier) that had sortied, we had a line of subs along it's suspected route and about everyone reported it! It was like a rash of Elvis sightings. Anyway no one was able to attack it so finally they gave the go ahead to attack first. By that time it was too late, it got away.

I am pretty sure I read of this in Clay Blair's book "Silent Victory".

[Ivan Putski]

I just had an incident on my 15th patrol, I was West of Okinawa when I was alerted to a single contact. Turned out to be a huge convoy, not a square marker on the map, but a huge rectangle. I tried to run around end, but the weather 15 meters would`nt allow me any headway. I was able to get a radio message off to ComPac, but was`nt able to catch up, and me with almost all my torps left. Puts:damn: Got 250 points renown for that one.

[Goose_green]

I didn't realise you got brownie points for reporting in :o Is it extra renown? Or a polite reply from the brass to go kick some butt? http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=976390&postcount=3
How do you know that you gain extra renown? Open:
Data\Campaigns\Campaign\DynamicMiss\ContactReport 01\ContactReport 01.mis - for example - with a plain text editor like Notepad.

See the line:
RenownAwarded=250 in the [Objective 1] section.

But like I said before, I don't report them for historical reasons - not to mention you're giving your position away etc, etc.

Happy Hunting!

Art

Thanks for your reply :) And your reasoning for not doing so is very sound :up: To be honest, if I found a convoy I'd get stuck in before worrying about reporting in ;)