V.P. Debate poll

[SteamWake]

Noticed no one put one of these up yet :hmm:

[Konovalov]

A tie. Neither made any giant gaffes. It wasn't the train wreck that I thought it may be. Fairly dull.

The only thing of any real interest that struck me was how impartial and professional the moderator was given the host of complaints and outrage by some members on this forum (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=142686)and by the McCain campaign.

Oh yeah, and that single VP debate ain't going to make jack of a difference come the November election but everyone knew that anyway. ;)

[Digital_Trucker]

Definitely a tie, which is a win for McCain/Palin since everyone expected her to fall on her face and also a win for Obama/Biden because many expected Jokin' Joe to gaffe himself to death. Both sides made points, both sides distorted the truth to fit their points.

The saddest part of all was the moderation. The rules were laid out before the questions started and after the first question, the moderator (and I use the term loosely) broke the rules by going on to the second question without the 2 minute rebuttal period. Overall, a very disorganized affair. PBS should be ashamed of the first two debates since, IMHO, both moderators were complete failures. Hope the next two are more debate and less speech.

[SteamWake]

Ill have to admit, the moderator did a good job of trying to be impartial.

Bidin did admit to being against Gay Marrige, which supprised me. Im sure that alone will lose them some votes. He made a few other gaffes, along with a few outright lies at which Palin missed a real opportunity.

Palin came off a little too 'common folk' and stammered a bit at first. But I felt once she got over the jitters and stuck to conservitave Reganesque principals she did well.

[FIREWALL]

Ill have to admit, the moderator did a good job of trying to be impartial.

Bidin did admit to being against Gay Marrige, which supprised me. Im sure that alone will lose them some votes. He made a few other gaffes, along with a few outright lies at which Palin missed a real opportunity.

Palin came off a little too 'common folk' and stammered a bit at first. But I felt once she got over the jitters and stuck to conservitave Reganesque principals she did well.


I picked up on that "common folksy" too. Supriseingly non of my friends did. Oh well.

[Digital_Trucker]

By the way, what's a "nukelar" weapon ? :doh:
It's whar they take them leftover nukelar fewell from the nukelar pahr playnt and spin it round and round until it gets dizzy and then they jam it all together in a warhaid on top of one of them thar missiles to blow stuff up.:D

[SteamWake]

Thats newclur... sheese get it right...

Okay for some fun "Fact checking" yea I know its fox but facts is facts.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/03/fact-checking-vice-presidential-debate/

[Frame57]

IMO Sarah needs to knock off the "Geez, gosh golly " stuff. I too was not impressed by the debate. Really what I would like to see is both candidates Obama and McCain do an address the nation type deal on the TV. Simply present their plans in detail, because that is what we want to know. Not his same old "he voted for this or that", over and over again...

[SteamWake]

IMO Sarah needs to knock off the "Geez, gosh golly " stuff. I too was not impressed by the debate. Really what I would like to see is both candidates Obama and McCain do an address the nation type deal on the TV. Simply present their plans in detail, because that is what we want to know. Not his same old "he voted for this or that", over and over again...

You dont feel that the candidates past voting records are relevant?

It is repeated over and over again because the average american has the attention span of a gnat on speed.

[nikimcbee]

I watched it and the post debate anaysis on ABC. This part was priceless; very typical:roll: . They gave the debate a tie, no naturally, when the score is a tie, you declare Biden the winner.:rotfl:

I thought the debate was all fluff, zero substance. I think they both met their goals: Biden: Mccann=bush and Palin held her ground..


The best I heard was Dennis Miller on Leno last night. Now that was funny! Hopefully it will be on youtube soon. His critisism of obama was spot on and really funny.

[DeepIron]

Nah... it's "new clear"... Avon's new face cream for politicians who constantly have egg on their face...

[nikimcbee]

IMO Sarah needs to knock off the "Geez, gosh golly " stuff. I too was not impressed by the debate. Really what I would like to see is both candidates Obama and McCain do an address the nation type deal on the TV. Simply present their plans in detail, because that is what we want to know. Not his same old "he voted for this or that", over and over again...

Yeah, this blame game stuff is lame. George Bush stomps kittens and John Mccann will stomp kittens too.

Althought Palin had a really bad gaffe when she kept talking about General McCleallan.:oops:

If Iwas mccan/palin, I would attack all of obama's "present" votes:roll: . Every issue, every time he voted present. i suppose no one is interested in the Rezko stuff:roll:

[Thomen]

IMO Sarah needs to knock off the "Geez, gosh golly " stuff. I too was not impressed by the debate. Really what I would like to see is both candidates Obama and McCain do an address the nation type deal on the TV. Simply present their plans in detail, because that is what we want to know. Not his same old "he voted for this or that", over and over again...
Yeah, this blame game stuff is lame. George Bush stomps kittens and John Mccann will stomp kittens too.

Althought Palin had a really bad gaffe when she kept talking about General McCleallan.:oops:

If Iwas mccan/palin, I would attack all of obama's "present" votes:roll: . Every issue, every time he voted present. i suppose no one is interested in the Rezko stuff:roll:
Indeed.
IMO, McCain tries to run a 'honorable' campaign. Instead of going out and confront Obama and Biden directly, he is fighting with one hand tied behind his back. It seems to me, that McCain is sacrificing the Presidency and the future of the USA on the altar of his personal honor. I might be wrong, but that's how I see it.

[Digital_Trucker]

IMO Sarah needs to knock off the "Geez, gosh golly " stuff. I too was not impressed by the debate. Really what I would like to see is both candidates Obama and McCain do an address the nation type deal on the TV. Simply present their plans in detail, because that is what we want to know. Not his same old "he voted for this or that", over and over again...
You dont feel that the candidates past voting records are relevant?

It is repeated over and over again because the average american has the attention span of a gnat on speed.
I think what he was referring to was listening to them TALK about their voting records. It's funny that they try to infer all kinds of things knowing that the average person won't check them on it. Like Biden and deregulation. And who gets the most campaign contributions from who. It's all out there to see if you look hard enough, but most people just take what's said as fact.

[Sailor Steve]

'Honorable'? Really. In the last election whenever the Democrats would complain about the Swift Boat ads, I was quick to bring up the fact that their side compared Bush to Hitler long before that.

But this time? McCain's intense attacks started right at the beginning. I lost any respect for him as a candidate right then.

[Thomen]

'Honorable'? Really. In the last election whenever the Democrats would complain about the Swift Boat ads, I was quick to bring up the fact that their side compared Bush to Hitler long before that.

But this time? McCain's intense attacks started right at the beginning. I lost any respect for him as a candidate right then.

Honorable in McCains own view.. that's why I put it in ' ' ;)

[UnderseaLcpl]

Somehow, we have confused the idea that political aptitude has anything to do with political success. Palin wins by holding her own, more or less. Period.

Watch as the McCain-Palin ticket locks up a large portion of the swing vote (read ,female vote) and goes on to win in November. Short of a liberal media rally that somehow dienfranchises female voters, I don't see any hope of victory for Obama.

The main problem that Obama faces lies in the fact that women are an important liberal demographic. Therefore, a female vote for the McCain ticket is not +1 vote for the Republicans, but rather, -1 vote for the Dems +1 vote for the Republicans.
Couple that with the relatively high voter turnout of Republicans versus the relatively low turnout of Dems and you have a Republican victory.

Next, factor in that Obama is black. There are a lot of trailer-park democrats who won't vote for him just because of that, civil rights be damned. Even if they won't say it quite like that.

McCain-Palin is the winner in '08. Best start debating what that entails rather than who will win.

Question me if you like but expect to see this post quoted, by me, in November. :D

I don't like it, and I don't like the alternative, but that's how it is.

[UnderseaLcpl]

I'm not sure that I understand your post, do you think that women will vote for McCain just because of Palin ?

Yes, but allow me to qualify that.

Many will. Not all of course. But even if we supposed that a relatively small number of women voted for McCain because of Palin, this would be very damaging to the Democratic cause.

There are a lot of female Hillary supporters that have switched sides because of the Palin nomination.

Naturally, this is not the only factor, but many factors are working against Obama here.


McCain will win in 08' wait and see.....

[nikimcbee]

The thing that makes me most upset:

ASK THESE 2 PUTZES ABOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, NOT ONE QUESTION ABOUT THIS!!!!!!!



Stop asking about gay marrage, and ask about real issues.

[Digital_Trucker]

That's what happens when you let idiots moderate the "debates" and the moderator chooses the questions.

[Tchocky]

There are a lot of female Hillary supporters that have switched sides because of the Palin nomination.

As far as I've seen, that really hasn't happened.

Real links and proper thoughts to follow later. Gaming & Booze time now.

[GlobalExplorer]

The intellectual in me says Biden crushed Palin. I was personally inspired by this man, who represents for me the ideal American. If I was an American myself I would go as far that he impressed me more than Obama.

But Sarah Palin did well too! She will snatch a lot of votes from womanfolk who identity with her. I was always reminded her way of dealing with the audience like she was a very popular mother/teacher talking to boys, age 6-12, and how other mothers would love her for that ability. She even blinked an eye at times.

So yeah, on the emotional side, she really did quite well, and that counts with a lot of people. She also managed to fix a lot of broken dishes by not sounding like a dangerous conservative anymore, if that already qualifies her for the office is not mine to decide, but yesterday she didnt scare people.

She returned to the status of a regular candiate, and not the laughing stock she used to be. But it's entirely possible that it will all come back in a few days if she has to answer direct questions again in normal interviews.

[UnderseaLcpl]

The intellectual in me says Biden crushed Palin. I was personally inspired by this man, who represents for me the ideal American. If I was an American myself I would go as far that he impressed me more than Obama.

But Sarah Palin did well too! She will snatch a lot of votes from womanfolk who identity with her. I was always reminded her way of dealing with the audience like she was a very popular mother/teacher talking to boys, age 6-12, and how other mothers would love her for that ability. She even blinked an eye at times.

So yeah, on the emotional side, she really did quite well, and that counts with a lot of people. She also managed to fix a lot of broken dishes by not sounding like a dangerous conservative anymore, if that already qualifies her for the office is not mine to decide, but yesterday she didnt scare people.

She returned to the status of a regular candiate, and not the laughing stock she used to be. But it's entirely possible that it will all come back in a few days if she has to answer direct questions again in normal interviews.

Unfortunately, you just flew past the normal level of cognition of the average American voter by about this much; The intellectual in me


Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl
There are a lot of female Hillary supporters that have switched sides because of the Palin nomination.

As far as I've seen, that really hasn't happened.

Real links and proper thoughts to follow later. Gaming & Booze time now.

Don't believe everything you see. Most of the media surveys tend towards a liberal bias, whether they intend it or not.

But I will await real links and proper thoughts before I say more. Enjoy your booze and games:D I wish I could join you.

[Molon Labe]

A tie. Neither made any giant gaffes. It wasn't the train wreck that I thought it may be. Fairly dull.

The only thing of any real interest that struck me was how impartial and professional the moderator was given the host of complaints and outrage by some members on this forum (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=142686)and by the McCain campaign.

Oh yeah, and that single VP debate ain't going to make jack of a difference come the November election but everyone knew that anyway. ;)

I didn't weigh in on that on this board, but it professional conduct at the debate doesn't excuse the conflict of interest. The fact of the matter is that she has a financial stake in the outcome of the election, likely worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. And she did not disclose this conflict of interest to the board that runs the debates. That was unethical by any standard.

Being an attorney, I tend to compare things like this to the way things work in my profession. All joking about our trade aside, we take professional ethics seriously. Journalists should have a sense of ethics too. Had Ifill been a judge and had Palin and Biden as parties before her, and not disclosed her conflict and recused herself from the case, she would have been disbarred from practice and probably prosecuted for corruption. It would not have been a defense had she in fact been able to preside over the case fairly, professional ethics demand that when you have a financial stake in one of the parties, you do not preside over their cases, PERIOD. Ifill should never be selected to moderate any debate ever again.

[Molon Labe]

IMO Sarah needs to knock off the "Geez, gosh golly " stuff. I too was not impressed by the debate. Really what I would like to see is both candidates Obama and McCain do an address the nation type deal on the TV. Simply present their plans in detail, because that is what we want to know. Not his same old "he voted for this or that", over and over again...
I haven't been impressed with any presidential campaign debate except for Cheney/Lieberman. Probably the only debate where the focus was on substance over presentation (although to be fair, a highlight was when Lieberman mentioned his success in the private sector and Cheney joked that he wanted to help Lieberman by sending him back to it).

The thing that makes me most upset:

ASK THESE 2 PUTZES ABOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, NOT ONE QUESTION ABOUT THIS!!!!!!!
Both of these putzes work for running mates that have the same essential position on illegal immigration: offer amnesty to illegals here, and secure the border. There isn't anything to debate, and whoever brings it up will just alienate the many people who don't like amnesty.

I don't know about that, maybe most women are just as stupid as men and so would indeed vote for a woman regarless of her ideas like men would vote for a "guy like us, or worse", but somehow I doubt it. Appart from their gender there's no much thing that Palin and Hillary have in common. It might play for the "totally clueless & non partisan" portion of women but that's it.
Now about the final win, well we'll see, as a half breed something, I hope you're wrong :D I don't think there many women are going to vote for Palin because she's a woman, any more than many women supported Clinton because she's a woman. The key thing to keep in mind here is that nearly 90% of US voters have their minds made up about what party they support and they aren't going to change their minds anytime soon. There's about 10-15% of the population that's somewhere in the middle who decide elections. So a very small number of undecideds won over makes a huge difference. The Clinton voters who might be converted are not committed Democrats, but part of that middle.

[Blacklight]

All I can say is "At least Biden actually ANSWERED most of his questions instead of just tap dancing around them like Palin did."

I'm surprised she didn't really tick people off when she was asked about the jobless rates and wages shrinking for the middle class. Her answer was pretty much "We have to put more money in education !"
Yeah.. the reason that the middle class's job market is drying up and their earnings are decreasing is because they're uneducated. :nope:

Oh.. and if she winked at me a few more times, I'd have expected a 1-800 number to pop up on the screen.

I also think the woman running the debate did a godawful job of it.

[Hylander_1314]

The thing that makes me most upset:

ASK THESE 2 PUTZES ABOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, NOT ONE QUESTION ABOUT THIS!!!!!!!

But we need these people to do jobs Americans won't do! :nope:

That would require them to do one of two things, either come clean concerning the issue, and give a reasonable responce, or lie and show their true colors, which I'm guessing is lobbyist, and special interest money green.

[Tchocky]

Katie Couric: What do you think is the best and worst thing that Dick Cheney has done as vice president?

Joe Biden: I'm not being a wise guy here ... that I don't know what he's done. I mean, there's not many things I'd pick that I thought he's done that have been good. But I admire his strength. I admire his willingness to take positions that are completely contrary to popular opinion. But I think that what he's done has been just, I don't think Dick Cheney trusts that the American people can make judgments that are in the interest of the country. But the thing I think he's really, really has done: I think he's done more harm than any other single high elected official in memory in terms of shredding the constitution. You know, condoning torture, pushing torture as a policy. This idea of a unitary executive, meaning the Congress and the people have no power in a time of war, and the president controls everything. I don't have any animus toward Dick Cheney but I really do think his attitude about the constitution and the prosecution of this war has been absolutely wrong.

Sarah Palin: Worst thing, I guess that would have been the duck-hunting accident, where you know, that was an accident. And that I think that was made into a caricature of him. And that was kind of unfortunate.

So, the best thing though, he's shown support, along with George W. Bush, of our troops. And I've been there when George Bush has spoken to families of those who have suffered greatly, those who are serving in the military. I've been there when President Bush has embraced those families and expressed the concern and the sympathy speaking for all of America in those times. And for Dick Cheney to have supported that effort of George Bush's. I respect that.


heh heh.

[NealT]

I hate the debates. They prep and prep and prep and really don't speak the truth anyway. They work so hard to get their points across...and in the end analysis it really makes no difference...

Nothing changes!

[Skybird]

I saw excerpts of it meanwhile. Terrible. What a humiliation to a political culture.

Palin did not perform as bad as expected, but she certainly performed much worse than Biden. Little schoolgirl that learned her words for the yearly spelling competition well - and was proud of it. I just waited for her starting to hop in place in excitement. No pigtails, though.

I could imagine that many american women who were for Clinton feel offended by McCain's plump expectation to get their vote by throwing something unripe like Palin into the match. She is almost the antithesis to Clinton.

[Takeda Shingen]

Somehow, we have confused the idea that political aptitude has anything to do with political success. Palin wins by holding her own, more or less. Period.

Watch as the McCain-Palin ticket locks up a large portion of the swing vote (read ,female vote) and goes on to win in November. Short of a liberal media rally that somehow dienfranchises female voters, I don't see any hope of victory for Obama.

The main problem that Obama faces lies in the fact that women are an important liberal demographic. Therefore, a female vote for the McCain ticket is not +1 vote for the Republicans, but rather, -1 vote for the Dems +1 vote for the Republicans.
Couple that with the relatively high voter turnout of Republicans versus the relatively low turnout of Dems and you have a Republican victory.

Next, factor in that Obama is black. There are a lot of trailer-park democrats who won't vote for him just because of that, civil rights be damned. Even if they won't say it quite like that.

McCain-Palin is the winner in '08. Best start debating what that entails rather than who will win.

Question me if you like but expect to see this post quoted, by me, in November. :D

I don't like it, and I don't like the alternative, but that's how it is.

I don't see it that way. Clearly, the momentum has shifted back to Obama, and McCain has all but abandoned Michigan to concentrate in states that are more 'winable'. The fiasco on Wall Street and McCain's playing around with campaign suspension has burned him, and has forced the campaign to be on the defensive for the time being. I also don't buy the theory women are going to flock to the polls in record numbers to vote for Palin. That's akin to claiming that every Navy vet is going to instantly support McCain. Now, plenty of things can happen in October, but at this stage, I see the Obama campaign as having the clear advantage.

Neither VP candidate tripped over themselves. This was good for both campaigns, but McCain/Palin had the greatest benefit, as Palin held up well enough that she won't be seen as a detriment by the public. She still may not be a particularly strong asset, and I don't think you'll see much of her from this point on unless she is on McCain's hip.

[mookiemookie]

If Sarah Palin not making a complete idiot out of herself is seen as a "win" by the Republicans, then the standard that we hold our politicians to has reached a new low.

Biden wasn't spectacular...he had his moments (tearing up about his family, the "not a maverick" rant) but Palin was atrocious. Sticking to canned, generic answers and talking points anytime a question was posed that she hadn't the slightest clue of how to answer is not a success. It shows that she can read notecards and memorize slogans.

If that's confidence inspiring in people, then that's scary.

[Takeda Shingen]

Biden wasn't spectacular...he had his moments (tearing up about his family, the "not a maverick" rant) but Palin was atrocious. Sticking to canned, generic answers and talking points anytime a question was posed that she hadn't the slightest clue of how to answer is not a success. It shows that she can read notecards and memorize slogans.

I disagree. Palin's performance was not a home run, but it was hardly atrocious by any standard. The only thing that any politician is going to say will be phrased as a slogan. It's all they do. Palin is no different than Biden, McCain, Obama, Bush 43, Bush 41, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ, Kennedy any everybody else. All we have ever gotten from any of them are generic answers.

I see it this way: No, Palin did not 'win', persay. She did not convince the populace to turn for her ticket. However, Biden had the opportunity to deliver the knockout punch on Thursday evening. Palin was reeling after several disasterous interviews. McCain was, and still is, in trouble over the financial mess. Had Palin faltered, or Biden really took it to her, the campaign, for all intents, could have ended that night. Biden was tentative in his direct rebuttal, and Palin, for her part, got through the evening without sustaining any bumps and bruises, so the McCain campaign lives to fight another day.

[Zachstar]

A tiny win for Biden....

Mainly because Sarah was not Politically slaughtered during the debate. That alone put her in the ballpark.

Yet he had overall better command of the facts and better command of his positions. And the "That is a bridge to nowhere" was the statement that pushed him into the lead.

[SteamWake]

I guess the fact that Biden flat out lied at least a half dozen times is overlooked.

Oh well.

[Digital_Trucker]

I guess the fact that Biden flat out lied at least a half dozen times is overlooked.

Oh well.

My sentiments exactly. And harping about deregulation when he voted for it isn't exactly brilliant either.

[SteamWake]

Well they both lied quite a lot to make either themselves or their running mate look better, not really a breaking news.

Im not aware of any lies by Palin, any examples?

[mookiemookie]

Well they both lied quite a lot to make either themselves or their running mate look better, not really a breaking news.
Im not aware of any lies by Palin, any examples?
Palin mistakenly claimed that troop levels in Iraq had returned to “pre-surge” levels. Levels are gradually coming down but current plans would have levels higher than pre-surge numbers through early next year, at least.


Palin repeated a false claim that Obama once voted in favor of higher taxes on “families” making as little as $42,000 a year. He did not. The budget bill in question called for an increase only on singles making that amount, but a family of four would not have been affected unless they made at least $90,000 a year.
Biden wrongly claimed that McCain “voted the exact same way” as Obama on the budget bill that contained an increase on singles making as little as $42,000 a year. McCain voted against it. Biden was referring to an amendment that didn't address taxes at that income level.
Palin claimed McCain’s health care plan would be “budget neutral,” costing the government nothing. Independent budget experts estimate McCain's plan would cost tens of billions each year, though details are too fuzzy to allow for exact estimates.


Biden wrongly claimed that McCain had said "he wouldn't even sit down" with the government of Spain. Actually, McCain didn't reject a meeting, but simply refused to commit himself one way or the other during an interview.

Palin wrongly claimed that “millions of small businesses” would see tax increases under Obama’s tax proposals. At most, several hundred thousand business owners would see increases.
Palin said, "We're circulating about $700 billion a year into foreign countries" for imported oil, repeating an outdated figure often used by McCain. At oil prices current as of Sept. 30, imports are running at a rate of about $493 billion per year.
Biden claimed that McCain said in a magazine article that he wanted to deregulate the health care industry as the banking industry had been. That’s taking McCain’s words out of context. As we’ve said before (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/out_of_context_on_health_care.html), he was talking specifically about his proposal to allow the sale of health insurance across state lines.
Biden said five times that McCain's tax plan would give oil companies a "$4 billion tax cut." As we’ve noted previously (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_overstatement.html), McCain’s plan would cut the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 25 percent — for ALL corporations, not just oil companies. Biden uses a Democratic think tank's estimate for what the rate change is worth to the five largest U.S. oil companies.
Palin threw out an old canard when she criticized Obama for voting for the 2005 energy bill and said, “that’s what gave those oil companies those big tax breaks.” It’s a false attack Sen. Hillary Clinton used (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/oily_words.html) against Obama in the primary, and McCain himself has hurled (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/maverick_misleads.html). It’s true that the bill gave some tax breaks to oil companies, but it also took away others. And according to the Congressional Research Service (http://www.ncseonline.org/NLE/CRSreports/07March/RL33763.pdf), the bill created a slight net increase in taxes for the oil industry.
Biden said that Iraq had an "$80 billion surplus." The country was once projected to have as much as a $79 billion surplus, but no more. The Iraqis have $29 billion in the bank, and could have $47 billion to $59 billion by the end of the year, as we noted when Obama used the incorrect figure (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_1.html). A $21 billion supplemental spending bill, passed by the Iraqi legislature in August, knocked down the old projection.
Biden said four times that McCain had voted 20 times against funding alternative energy. However, in analyzing the Obama campaign's list of votes (http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/09/26/debate_reality_check_mccain_vs.php) after the first presidential debate, we found (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_1.html) the number was actually 11. In the other instances the Obama-Biden campaign cites, McCain voted not against alternative energy but against mandatory use of alternative energy, or he voted in favor of allowing exemptions from these mandates.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html