More sonar engine sounds?

[roadhogg]

Is there a mod available that will add more different types of engine sounds for various ships, to make identification easier through sonar?

I'm sure in the war many sonar operators could tell what type of ship they were listening to in general and could probably identify it's approximate size by the sound.

Personally i find it hard to tell the difference between a frigate, light or heavy cruiser, battleship or carrier because they all sound so similar.

Merchants/cargo's and tankers also sound similar, though the heavier merchants/cargo's seem to be lacking the little "chink" or "tinkle" and sound a bit deeper.

Could be my inexperience or stupidity but i wondered if there are more varied engine sounds available as a mod anywhere?

[roadhogg]

Ok, should have done this before posting but i just checked the sound folder and theres seperate -hyd- files for the carrier, king george, and dido, so perhaps i need to get between a carrier and battleship with a cruiser in front or behind and compare.

A different sound for the frigate would still be nice tho, to save me getting my hopes up for nothing.

There's also files for the cargo, liberty ship, oil tanker, passenger ships and subs, but theres so many ships in these groups, mainly the cargo's and oil tankers that if theres more sounds available i'd still want to ty them out.

So the question still stands.

Any info appreciated :)

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Ok, should have done this before posting but i just checked the sound folder and theres seperate -hyd- files for the carrier, king george, and dido, so perhaps i need to get between a carrier and battleship with a cruiser in front or behind and compare.

There's also files for the cargo, liberty ship, oil tanker, passenger ships and subs, but theres so many ships in these groups, mainly the cargo's and oil tankers that if theres more sounds available i'd still want to ty them out.

So the question still stands.

Any info appreciated :)

Each ship don't have different engine sounds.
Each engine has different sounds.
Each engine fits lot of different ships.
So there's a whole bunch of different ships with same engine.
One same engine has same sound.
Lots of merchants, few engines.
Few engines, few sounds.

[Sag75]

Each ship don't have different engine sounds.
Each engine has different sounds.
Each engine fits lot of different ships.
So there's a whole bunch of different ships with same engine.
One same engine has same sound.
Lots of merchants, few engines.
Few engines, few sounds.


..it seems a poem.. you can put it in verses! :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Each ship don't have different engine sounds.
Each engine has different sounds.
Each engine fits lot of different ships.
So there's a whole bunch of different ships with same engine.
One same engine has same sound.
Lots of merchants, few engines.
Few engines, few sounds.


..it seems a poem.. you can put it in verses! :rotfl: :rotfl:

"... and so it became to past
that the countess, who was
once bathed in the blood
of a hundred virgins,
was buried alive..."

[roadhogg]

Certainly the same engine will fit different ships, but those engines, even from the same manufacturer, will have different specs as indeed car engines do. Otherwise how does a fast freighter of 12000 tons do 22knots, and a medium cargo 0f 5000 tons does about 16 knots?

The FF has weetabix for breakfast i guess :lol:

Or low compression heads and a turbo

And a frigate sounding like a Battleship? . . . No way

Just look at the performance of these ships in comparison to their size, and the probability that they must have sounded quite individual in many cases seems obvious.
I know some of the performance figures may have been guestimates, but the ship modders here are pretty accurate on things like that in order to avoid complaints, so i reckon the performance figures are generally pretty close to reality.

Get out of that one batman :rotfl:

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Certainly the same engine will fit different ships, but those engines, even from the same manufacturer, will have different specs as indeed car engines do. Otherwise how does a fast freighter of 12000 tons do 22knots, and a medium cargo 0f 5000 tons does about 16 knots?

The FF has weetabix for breakfast i guess :lol:

Or low compression heads and a turbo

And a frigate sounding like a Battleship? . . . No way

Just look at the performance of these ships in comparison to their size, and the probability that they must have sounded quite individual in many cases seems obvious.
I know some of the performance figures may have been guestimates, but the ship modders here are pretty accurate on things like that in order to avoid complaints, so i reckon the performance figures are generally pretty close to reality.

Get out of that one batman :rotfl:

There were two explanations, I gave just one.

The other one is that this is a game.

[roadhogg]

I was hoping you'd take my comments in the spirit they were meant, ie- lighthearted.

Doesn't appear that happened.

Of course it is a game, so does that mean that no ideas to improve the gameplay should be aired?

The original question went along the lines of:

Does anyone know if, or where there are more ship hydrophone sounds available for inclusion in SH3?

Any help appreciated.

[Task Force]

I wonder why UBI didnt give diffrent ships there own sounds so they sound alittle diffrent.:hmm: (Just change the Bass and rotation frequency,:yep:

[Wolfehunter]

All can be done if you want to make it happen. I'm guessing it would take alot of work finding and researching engine sounds of the past and then converting them to a compatible format. Thats the easy part.

Then you have to edit and make new files to work with SH3.. Thats the hard part. :hmm:

I think.

Anything is possible. :rock:

WH

[Task Force]

All can be done if you want to make it happen. I'm guessing it would take alot of work finding and researching engine sounds of the past and then converting them to a compatible format. Thats the easy part.

Then you have to edit and make new files to work with SH3.. Thats the hard part. :hmm:

I think.

Anything is possible. :rock:

WH

Magic little people granting a wish for wings that will let you fly.:hmm:

[roadhogg]

I think maybe PT thought i was trying to be smart with him in my response to his original comments, and perhaps i could have worded my own response a bit differently.
No offence intended PT.

Thanks Task Force, i'll have a bash at that :)

According to my system they're .wav files.

Never tried playing with sound files before but if i can alter them the way you suggest, save the alterations as new files and assign them to particular ships, that should do the trick :up:

[roadhogg]

Just seen the above 2 posts while writing my reply :)

Some may reject different sounds if they don't think they're realistic, but i don't know if the engine sounds already in the game are realistic anyway.

Personally i wouldn't think they had to be, tho obviously it'd be nice if they were.

Just seemed to me that many of the ships hydro sounds were too similar, and i figured quite a few of the ships would sound unique, hence the post.

I'm not expecting miracles fellas, just a bit more individuality in the hydro sounds, and if i can do it myself i'll be happy to upload them so that people can rip me to bits :D

[Sailor Steve]

Just look at the performance of these ships in comparison to their size, and the probability that they must have sounded quite individual in many cases seems obvious.
Does it really seem obvious? How many different types of engines were there? Diesel, steam turbine (used by most warships and a lot of merchants), VTE (steam piston, used by all the rest of the merchants). I can't think of much more. While smaller ships will sound different than larger ships using the same type of engine, most merchants will have different sounds based only on propeller size. One big ship will sound pretty much like another, I think.

I've never heard a story in which a soundman says "Captain, that's an American C-3!"

[Task Force]

I dont think PT took you that way roadhogg.;)

[wdq4587]

There are 2 kind sound: engine sound and propeller sound. If someone can got sound recording from modern submarine hydrophone, that will be easy. And if SH3 allow extend number of engine type, that will be not difficult to add it.

[geosub1978]

Guys, guys, guys!

What the sonarman hears by the hydrophone is NOT the engine sound. This is impossible! Only modern LOFAR procedures can create a frequency pattern of an engine, but certainly NOT an acoustic effect. The only case is if you are 10 meters UNDER the target or something like that!

What a sonarman listens are:

1st: Flow noise. This is the passing of the hull through the water. This has to do with the shape-speed-clariy of the hull-waves. This coases the initial contact and usually warships have a more clear hull and they are more slimm lined (cruisers-destroyers) and they are distincted. I don't know about battleships......

2nd: Propeller sound. This can be distinctive form great distances but maybe not as well. This has to do with the number of propellers, the shape/size and the RPM. The sonarmen should be able to distinct a merchant from a warship by the propeller sound. Counting the beats of the propeller and knowing the TPK could determine the speed or reverse. They determined the speed by plotting, the sonarman counted the beats and thus prodused the TPK for that specific class of target and could use it for future speed calculations when they met that class of target again!

I doupt that any sonarman ever heard engine sound itself!

What should have been done in SH3 which is realistik is the distinction of fishimg boats and the rest junk! The sonarman should be able to identify a fishing boat and prevent you from spending 2 hours approaching just to realise that this is a fishing boat!

So I think a more reasonable classification would be:

1. Merchant Big
2. Merchant Small
3. Warship Big
4. Warship Small
5. Fishing boat/trawler

[roadhogg]

Based on what geosub says, my reasoning tells me that the hull on a battleship is much wider and flatter than that of a frigate. Also, it'll have bigger and possibly more props (not got time to load the museum atm cos i work nights at the weekends).
Both instances tell me the sound of the above 2 ships will be markedly different.

I agree completely with your fishing boat comments.

I wonder though, if the sonar won't pick up the mechanical noise of the engines if it's capable of picking up the tap of a metal object on a hull?

The engines in these ships are BIG diesels, in metal hulls.

I have to admit i've never heard the RL feedback from sonar, and from a submarines perspective in my life, so i'll have to leave that debate to better informed people.

I do drive articulated lorries for a living tho, and they don't all sound the same.
Water transmits sound and vibration further than air or solid ground i believe?

So . .IF . . mechanical noise can be distinguished an experienced sonar operator may even be able to distinguish between a WW1 era merchant/cargo and a WW2 one, if the older one sounds coarser or has more rattles lol.

The prop and hull configurations alone suggest to me there would be more variation in the hydro sounds than exist in SH3 currently.
It wouldn't surprise me if the sounds were done like so many things in stock SH3, as a rush job in order to meet a deadline. So what we have is the most basic set of hydro sounds, that can be improved upon.
Even so, based on what they've included in stock we already have different sounds for Tankers compared to merchant/cargos.
Destroyers and frigates.
Battleships and carriers ( the carrier has a kind of rattle in the sound, and i think a slightly more meshy sound, distinguishing it from a battleship).
Plus there's the passenger ship hydro, of similar size, hull dimensions, prop numbers and performance to the BB's and AC's, yet different.

Large merchant/cargos and smaller ones.

Excepting the latter group, each group is mostly of similar size, hull dimensions and performance to each other, yet they have different sounds.


Sailor Steve i wasn't thinking of quite that much individuality m8 :D


I've never heard a story in which a soundman says "Captain, that's an American C-3!"


Just more than exists at present ;)


And thanks again Task Force, i hope you're right.

Specially since PT's good with sound files :D

[geosub1978]

I wonder though, if the sonar won't pick up the mechanical noise of the engines if it's capable of picking up the tap of a metal object on a hull?

The engines in these ships are BIG diesels, in metal hulls.



1. It is exactly as above water. Have you ever heard the engine of a ship underway when you are on the deck of a liner (if you have travelled with a ship f course)? Ceratinly NOT! You can only hear the passing of ship through the water. Only in small/very small ships you can hear the engine! The same happens underwater but because of the greater density of water mass the sound travels at greater distances!

2. NOOOO! At 50% of the merchants the engines are old styled steam cylinder engines (triple exhaustion/expantion or something like that). At 20% of the merchants the engines are diesels (motorships) and at 30% are steam turbines. As for warships: At 95% their engine is steam turbine, at 4% diesels (e.g. GRAF SPEE), at 1% old style steam cylinder (WW1 era e.g. AVEROF)

3. The capability of a sonarman to distinguish something is a matter of skill/knowledge/experience/sound propagation.

4. In the game the individual sounds can made very distinguishing of course, but again the report will remain the same "WARSHIP" or "MERCHANT" as it is once again hardcoded matter...You have to identify it by yourself!

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Roadhogg, mind beta-testing some new hydrophone sounds for the sound pack V4 for me?

[wdq4587]

Really interesting. It seems SH3 hydrophone sound: ship sound and ping sound are all wrong.

When I first time play SH3. I wonder why ship sound are different compare to Danger Water's sound. I can here the engine sound. And then I guess may be that old style steam cylinder engine sound are much loudder and the ship hull are works like a speaker. Now I know that's not true.

[roadhogg]

1) I don't think i've ever been on anything bigger than the Woolwich Ferry :D

Must fix that one day and book myself a cruise on a big liner.

2) The different sound files of the tankers compared to merchants may be partly due to them being wider than the cargo's and merchants then, therefore displacing water at a wider angle - flow noise. And possibly different prop sizes/numbers.

By the same token a 10,000 ton ship should create a different flow noise to a 5,000 ton ship due to the width and length of hull , number/size of props etc.

3) which would result in benefits to the game players in building up experience at the sonar station to differentiate between the different hydro sounds, IF there were more subtle variations in the sounds.

4) If the reports stayed the same, see 3) above :).
Saves the game doing the work for you. If you don't wanna waste your time chasing useless contacts, get on the sonar yourself.


Yes PT, i'd be happy to.

Had a look on your "version 3.2" thread and noticed the comment for V4 says " New multiple hydrophone engine sounds". Seems you're on the case already. Thanks dude :up:

Couldn't find the download of V4 on your filefront page tho.

[roadhogg]

You mean the hydro sounds in SH3 differ from those in Dangerous waters wdg4587?

Are the hydro sounds in Dangerous Waters realistic?

And how do you know the hull doesn't work like a speaker and the steam cylinder engines are not much louder, on the basis of what geosub has said?

Engines create vibration, vibration creates sound, and given the size of the engines used in ships, and the effectiveness of water as a sound conductor....

No disrespect intended to geosub, and he obviously knows more about the dynamics of sonar than i do, but his comments suggest to me that to an extent, even he is guessing.
Or is he?
Certainly geosub has been ON a ship, but has he ever been UNDER one?

Has anyone actually heard the sonar sound of different ships received by a sub?

Anyone that has please step forward. And i mean that most sincerely :)

[geosub1978]

You mean the hydro sounds in SH3 differ from those in Dangerous waters wdg4587?

Are the hydro sounds in Dangerous Waters realistic?

And how do you know the hull doesn't work like a speaker and the steam cylinder engines are not much louder, on the basis of what geosub has said?

Engines create vibration, vibration creates sound, and given the size of the engines used in ships, and the effectiveness of water as a sound conductor....

No disrespect intended to geosub, and he obviously knows more about the dynamics of sonar than i do, but his comments suggest to me that to an extent, even he is guessing.
Or is he?
Certainly geosub has been ON a ship, but has he ever been UNDER one?

Has anyone actually heard the sonar sound of different ships received by a sub?

Anyone that has please step forward. And i mean that most sincerely :)

I know what I am saying! :up: And believe me I have been below another ship. Thank God it wasn't just 10meters:rotfl: .

As for the flow noise, there is a level of distinction like that:

Warship/Merchant/Well maintained/new merchant/motorship/fishing boat.

Don't take for granted that because the flow noise of a 5000tn ship is diffrent that a 10000tn ship this will lead the sonarman to determine the displacment! He will identify a MERCHANT!

[wdq4587]

You mean the hydro sounds in SH3 differ from those in Dangerous waters wdg4587?
Are the hydro sounds in Dangerous Waters realistic?


In game Dangerous Waters you most time are hearing hydrophone sound and of course looking at sonar screen. And there are less graphics you can see and even no one picture of submarine interior. And I guess these guys also develop simulator for Navy.

[roadhogg]

Were you in a submarine when you were below this ship wdg?

If so did you hear any engine noise?

And hello btw :D

All i'm trying to find out here, is whether engine noise can be detected through sonar, and how much the flow noise differs between different sizes of ship.

The fact that the prop noise is discernable enough for a WW2 sonar operator to be able to count the prop revs is already known.

I'm not suggesting the flow noise difference between a 5,000 ton ship will be discernable from the flow noise of a 10,000 ton ship, but the flow noise isn't the only sound detected by sonar, and the sonar noise picked up between a small and large merchant may be different. ie: 2,500 and 10,000 tons.
If not from the flow noise, then the sound of the props. Or maybe the sound of the engines, or all three elements combined.

I've looked in the sound files of SH3, and the engine noise is included in some of the files. In others, strangely, it seems to be absent. Some of the files appear to be mis-named accordin to the sounds within them.

I'm just trying to determine what can reasonably be expected to be picked up by sonar, and how the noise differs when tracking various ships using it.

Until we can establish just how much, or what differences cause sonar to detect a noticeably different sound from one ship versus another, we're all going round in circles with different ideas and opinions, and no one can agree on any improvements.

If the developers of Dangerous Waters make simulators for the Navy, but it doesn't allow the ability to determine a ships speed from the prop rotation, then they can't call it an accurate simulator, since we know that can be done. Therefore theres still room for improvement.

[geosub1978]

When a ship passes over you, you can only hear the propeller revolution, nothing else! Sometimes if the target is fast the submarine shakes a little bit. Not an engine sound you can forget about that!

As for the rest that you say, I think you state it correctly, but in order to catch up all these you need much imagination because there is not much experience on something like that. I can say you for example:

1.The warship's propeller beating is more sharp, and the flow noise also sharp, because the surfaces of warhip's hull are more frequently cleaned that the merchants.

2. A fishing boat usually has a two stoke engine and a very fast rotating shaft (difficult to count beats) and generally it sounds like "tttrrrrrrrrrrrr":D

[roadhogg]

I feel like i've written loads on a question that had a straightforward answer, if the answer came from someone that knew what sonar from a sub sounds like when listening to ships.

Interesting that the flow noise of a warship can be differentiated from a merchant simply because the hull is cleaned more often :o

Any idea why the prop sound is sharper?

As for the rest of what i said, the basic sounds already exist, and as you say, i think all that's needed is some imagination. For example, the flow noise can be altered slightly, say made to sound a little deeper or sharper, for wider hulled and bigger ships, and ships with bigger props would do less revs for their given speed than smaller ships, and sound sharper and/or deeper too. The type of noise would also depend on how many props the ships had.

The effects between ships can be scaled, say with almost indescernable differences for similar sized/width ships in prop and /or flow noise, but more noticeable when tracking ships of increasing difference to each other.

If it's done right you wouldn't be able to tell some apart, but others you would, and it would depend on how "tuned in" your hearing was, and of course experience.

Apologies if i had doubts about the accuracy of your earlier comments, it wasn't clear to me what kind of experience you spoke from, or whether it was guesswork.

You might have been a diver or something and heard a ship pass overhead.

Your last post cleared that up. You've been under a ship in a sub and listened to it.
That's the kind of input i was looking for if possible, from someone that knew first hand what he was talkng about.

Thank you geosub :up:

[geosub1978]

It is not only the hull that it usually clearer, it is also the smoother hydronamic line of the warships that makes the diffrence in flow noise. I don't know about battleships and carriers.

The propellers are also distinguished, for the same reason. They should be clearer and designed to meet other requirements.

Another distinguishing characteristic of the old merchants is a noise produced by the shaft, which by the years, tends to "drop".

But I don't dare to tell you more because I am not a sonar specialist.

IS THERE A SUB SONARMAN OUT THERE?

[roadhogg]

The shaft noise would have probably helped them (WW2 sonar ops) distinguish between newer ships and the older WW1 era ships.

I was thinking in terms of maybe more rattly engines, as i said in a post earlier, but since that isn't the case, the shaft noise would do just as well as a substitute :D
Slowly but surely, with your help, the info you're giving me and the original idea are coming together :up:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Roadhogg, mind beta-testing some new hydrophone sounds for the sound pack V4 for me?

That's the spirit PT :yep:;)


RDP

[roadhogg]

Not heard from him in 3 days since he posted that comment.

[roadhogg]

26-09-08
Philip Thomson

Each ship don't have different engine sounds.
Each engine has different sounds.
Each engine fits lot of different ships.
So there's a whole bunch of different ships with same engine.
One same engine has same sound.
Lots of merchants, few engines.
Few engines, few sounds.[quote]

26-09-08
Philip Thomson
[quote]There were two explanations, I gave just one.

The other one is that this is a game.[quote]


[REL] Thomsen's Sound Pack V3.2 - May 20, 2008 - NEW VERSION

27-09-08

[quote]
Things to be fixed for V4:

- Improved deckgun sound volume
- New sound for the shell impact
- Reduced volume on some voices
- Amplified rain volume
- Improved submarine interior ambient sounds
- New multiple hydrophone engine sounds
- Fixed two last looping crank sounds 11 and 19
- Better sound for manning the guns
- Fixing the lipsynk for the muted "yes sir" orders
- Something I forgot...



27-09-08
Philip Thomson

Roadhogg, mind beta-testing some new hydrophone sounds for the sound pack V4 for me?


roadhogg
Yes PT, i'd be happy to.

Had a look on your "version 3.2" thread and noticed the comment for V4 says " New multiple hydrophone engine sounds". Seems you're on the case already. Thanks dude :up:

Couldn't find the download of V4 on your filefront page tho.

28-09-08 TO 30-09-08

NO REPLY from PT

RDP
That's the spirit PT :yep:;)


:hmm:

You think so?

[roadhogg]

Credit goes to yamoto9 for providing this link:

LINK: http://www.hnsa.org/sound/

Personally i'm not so sure one i can think of deserves this info, but since it may be in the interests of the SH3 comunity. . .nuff said.

[wdq4587]

If the developers of Dangerous Waters make simulators for the Navy, but it doesn't allow the ability to determine a ships speed from the prop rotation, then they can't call it an accurate simulator, since we know that can be done. Therefore theres still room for improvement.

Sure. You can also do that in SH3 without periscope up to determine target speed change. I remember there are some tutorial and one training mission on that.

But for exactly speed you need identify ship type first. So you can know how much distance ship passed per turn. Basically fast ship using small high speed propeller and slow ship using big slow speed propeller. In that game computer automatically analysis sound spectrum and compare to recorded data to identify ship. (And I guess engine sound may be also used for analysis).

And moden submarine using towed line array, it has some ability to determine target distance if target is not far. And if the submarine are in movement, by using Target Motion Analysis (TMA), it can also determine target solution not based on ship identify. Of course you can also do TMA on WW2 submarine by ploting on map.

[Laufen zum Ziel]

These recordings may be of interest

http://www.hnsa.org/sound/

[Laufen zum Ziel]

Real WWII Ship sounds?

http://www.sound-effects-library.com/soundsearch.asp?func=getlibsounds&start=151&datarequest=mlm

[roadhogg]

Thanks laufen for the links, second one is new to me and any new realistic sounds are a bonus.

wdg i was gonna do a mod to enable the prop count but after looking through forums i discovered that a prop count already seems to be possible in SH3, apart from bugs with the count for damaged ships, like where one prop is out of action or the ship is crawling at just a few knots, which is usually due to attack damage anyway.

Therefore it seems like theres no point me bothering to do something thats already been done.

Shame really, because i was going to add new ship sound files to it, including things like a squeeky prop on some of the older ( WW1 era or badly maintained newer ones) ships, different rotation speeds for different prop numbers and sizes, plus an attempt at adding a 3 position cycle switch in the sonar room to isolate the different sounds, ( ie: wash/flow noise - engine - prop ) with an on/off toggle button so that in the off position the sounds were merged as normal atm.
Since Thomson is adding new sound files to one of his mods ( apparently ), i've scrapped the idea and just modded some of my own sound files to my liking.
Lets hope for every one elses sake he does a decent job of it.

Thanks for your assistance wdg, much appreciated :up:

[roadhogg]

Btw: for anyone that wants to mod their sound files.

You'll find the various ship sound files in the SH3/data/Sound folder.

You can alter the sound files using something like Audacity, which is an audio editing program ( free - findable using web search bar).
Or
You can make certain alterations to the sound file from within SH3.sdl, like pitch, doppler effect, and some others, so you may not need Audacity, depending on how much you want to alter the file sound.

You can play with the sound files, then once you've got a file to sound how you like, name it and place it back in the SH3/data/Sound folder.

(Best to copy the original file in to somewhere else before playing with it, in case you mess it up first time ;) , i copied all the sound files for all the ships in to a back up folder before i touched them.)

Go to the SH3/data/Sea folder for the ship you want to alter and open the .dsd file with S3DEditor (free download available in the forums).
Here you'll find the soundsource identifier files for the ship.

Find the file type you've altered (typically _hyd, _engine, _mix etc) and rename it to your new file name.

Next go to SH3/data/Sound folder and open SH3.sdl file with S3DEditor and do the same (rename it).

Bob your uncle :up:

Might sound a bit involved but the chain of command goes:
SH3/data/Sea/ship folder -ship model soundsource file (.dsd)
SH3/data/Sound - SH3.sdl
SH3/data/Sound (.wav)

Happy sound modding :)