View Full Version : Pause for thought differences in education.
I have been thinking about why despite enjoying both of the latest evolutions of Silent Hunter, both III and IV, I am always drawn back to hunting in the cold waters of the Atlantic and wonder if age and education is part of the reason. I have to say that WWII had only been ended 15 years before, almost exactly as I was born on the 9th May.
I was born in 1960 in Great Britain and have travelled widely both with my Father as a Royal Air Force Officer and as a member of the Armed Forces myself, so have enjoyed education in a variety of locations, but mainly in either state schools or those that were set up by the Military when overseas.
I am interested in hearing the thoughts of other skippers, who were born in the US or in countries around the Pacific Rim, because I have come to recognise that although, in study of modern history, I learn't about all of the important events of WWII, much of the focus was of the events in the European Theater of Operation, with only the major events of the Pacific War, being studied to any great depth ie Pearl Harbour, Singapore, Malaya and Burma,plus the invasions of the Island groups and of course the use of the atomic bomb. However we spent a great deal of time on the events of the war against Nazism, with lots of contact through family and friends of those who fought for the Allied cause as well as seeing some of the ongoing re-building in Germany, when my Dad was posted there. If you add to that films, books and other forms of entertainment and hobbies, I have a great deal of knowledge of the events of the war that were so close to this country, but it is only as an adult that I have taken a major interest in deeper examination of the war in the Pacific.
I feel that this may well be part of the reason that I enjoy playing the role of U-Boat Commander so much, as the Pacific Theater, was so far away and not as widely studied in education. I do for instance remember meeting veterans that would not under any circumstances buy any goods that were Japanese in origin and in the early 70's, whilst living in Cyprus, some superbly reliable motor cars went under the title Golt Gallant, with the Mitsubishi logos being hidden away, so as not to offend those who had fought in the far East.
So as this is a place where there seems to be interesting discussion, surrounding the reality of those events that we engage in/simulate in our learning and when on patrol, do others have any feelings or thoughts on my view?
In closing I do wish to state that this subject is for discussion only and is not intended to upset or cause hurt to anybody else.
I look forward to seeing the thoughts of others.
Aye,
John
GoldenRivet
09-09-08, 07:10 PM
As i was growing up in Rural Texas i had two heroes.
One was my paternal grandfather, he was a merchant marine, a sea captain complete with the white beard like you see in the movies, and a fine smelling high quality cigar never too far from reach. he was a man that to a 5 year old boy seemed large than life itself... and though his presence commanded respect, he was probably the kindest and most gentile human being i have ever known in my life.
His home, but a stones throw from Mexico Beach Florida had a large brass ships wheel in the front yard, complete with a flag pole and a brass bell.
Some of my earliest memories involve standing out there in his front yard, at 5 years old not even standing high enough to see over the ships wheel. I steered us through a lot of rough storms and around a lot of battleships and submarines in that front yard. :up: and im almost sure of the fact that the bell drove the neighbors insane.
Being a sea captain, his home was replete with all things nautical and strange trinkets and what not from various parts of the world. As his area of responsibility was primarily the Atlantic ocean, most of the items within his museum of a house drew from his experiences in the Atlantic no doubt. It was truly a wondrous place to grow, and had he lived past my 12th birthday i probably would have gone to sea myself.
Burying that hero was probably the saddest day of my life.
My second hero, my maternal grandfather was an infantryman under Patton's 3rd U.S. Army who came ashore in normandy and stayed with that posting until VE-Day.
He was a coal miner, and a steel mill worker in the backwoods of Eastern Kentucky before the war. He literally was born in - and did most of his growing up in an honest to goodness log cabin (the remains of the chimney still stand deep in the overgrown mountains of Appalachia).
As a hunter, he was a natural as a U.S. Army sharpshooter and according to many verbal accounts from friends and family he "could hit a running rabbit at 100 yards".
He Joined the Army on December 8th 1941 like most young men, and due to illness was removed from his training and his unit and reassigned to another unit when his health returned. His old Unit went to the Pacific theater, and his new unit went to England.
He never really speaks much about his experiences during world war two. However, while looking for some scratch paper in the drawer of an upstairs bedroom one day i located his Honorable Discharge papers which were Dated in 1945. According to the document, he had served in every major campaign which patton's 3rd army had been a part of, and had been awarded several medals. Though he told us his profession in the military was "truck driver" the document listed him as being a "sharp shooter".
i always remember his home being decorated with commemorative pieces related to the Eurpoean Theatre of Operations.
And he even has his uniform hanging in his closet, decorated fully as if it had just been worn yesterday.
For me... it is difficult to grow up with two such heroes and NOT have a deeper appreciation for the Atlantic and the European sections of WWII versus the Pacific.
though i am highly familiar with the Pacific engagements and many of the signifigant events of the PTO... im just so much more passionate about the ETO.
thanks for reading.
thats an excellent question and i never really thought about it until now.
~GR
Madox58
09-09-08, 07:49 PM
Through High School and beyond?
I have always been interested in WWII.
In High School I Majored in History.
My main interest was, of course, WWII.
I knew more facts then the Teacher!
After High School I joined the 82nd AirBorne.
I needed the thrill and challange.
But always had books around on the Sub Services.
I even qualified to transfer to the Army Divers program!
I started with SH1
And LOVED it!!
I had to pass on SH2 ecause my real life and the system I had
could not run it.
I came late to SH3.
But it was all I could hope for after being away.
Until I got the Modding Bug.
Most of my older family members fought in the Pacific.
My Uncle fought in Korea.
I fought in Grenada and Panama.
And did missions else where.
But the Courage and Determenation of the U-Boat Crews,
and the area of Operations,
Are of the unmost interest to me.
Well...
I was born in 1952 and like you, for me the WW2 is in Europe and even the West Europe.
In my country we never say "the war 1939-1945" but always "the war 1940-1945".
It's clear.
Invasion may 10, 1940, battle of Britain, occupation and resistance actions, and the major point the D Day, Sainte Mère Eglise and Omaha beach the glory of "AA" Airborne and my eternel gratitude for all of the poor guys who sleep today at Colleville-sur-mer.
And finally the battle of the bulges of course witch was 25 miles near my hometown.
That's my WW2 references.
The war in the Pacific would never attracted me, except for acts of bravery of Kamikazes.
About Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it disgusting me.
It makes that for me, SH3 is on a U-Boot and in the Atlantic not in a pink submarine in the Pacific.
Sailor Steve
09-09-08, 11:47 PM
I was born in 1950, and grew up in the shadow of the war. I was always interested in the machinery, but mostly the planes. Of course I saw movies that told me how America won the war single-handed, and how it was all in the Pacific, except of course for the B-17s bombing Germany.
The 1960s brought new movies like Sink The Bismarck, The Longest Day, Battle of Britain and others that showed me a wider view. It took years for me to find out the war didn't start on December 7, 1941.
1983 brought Das Boot and 1985 found me playing Silent Service on my Atari 520ST. It wasn't until 1998 that I got my first PC and discovered Silent Hunter. As I played that I found myself wishing I could do it in a u-boat. When SH2 came along I was both happy and disappointed, and then I found an old copy of Aces Of The Deep.
My real interest is in Early American History and some aspects of World War One, but my gaming is all about the submarines. I love the machinery for itself and will gladly play either side in subs or surface ships.
headcase
09-10-08, 12:48 AM
I was born in the VERY late 60's to an Infantryman and his wife. Growed up diggin' music and math. Didn't do worth a flip at much of anything except sax in junior high. Didn't know how to deal with the Navy Recruiter in HS so I missed out on that chance. Wanted to go to OSC and wind up Commandind a fast-attack. Wound up after a failed attempt or three at Music School in the Infantry my own self. Never gave up the horn. Seperated from the U.S. Army, and within 9 months wound up playing on Cruise ships. Got fired once came close a few more times in the ensuing 10 years.
While I was bugged out of Ship Gigs a drummer hooked me up with SHII. It was cool. But I was into Jane's Longbow at the time . I sucked at it maybe beyond sucked. SHIII came out I All but built a system around it.
Antiacus
09-10-08, 01:48 AM
Born in 72.
Grandson of a Pacific Theater Marine.
As a kid is spent my summer days zig zagging through the sand dunes on the Oregon coast dodging bullets on "Iwo".
In my early teens i was drawn to the politics of the ETO probably more because culturally i could identify better with europeans. The Battle of Britain has always fascinated me. The scenes of sacrifice and bravery of the British people never fails to move me. Christian people huddled together, suffering, but refusing to lose faith.
Now that i'm in my 30's i'm learning about the Pacific peoples more and more. I'm just now starting to gain an understanding of the political climate in Japan that led to war and it's no less fascinating and enlightening.
As for gaming, i'm still always drawn to the Eastern theater. I just know it better and therefore the ability to immerse myself is more complete.
Born in 1963 in Eastern Ontario. My maternal grandfather & maternal great uncle were Great War veterans (WW I for those unfamiliar with the term "Great War"). My maternal grandad passed on few years before I came along. My great uncle Bruce (mom's side) survived the war only to die in about 1928-29 from complications from being gassed.
On Dad's side I remember my great Uncle John. He was captured on Crete & spent the rest of WW II in a POW camp. He caught dysentery there from the poor diet and living conditions & if I remember correctly, he never really recovered his health.
I was always interested in WW II. I guess that I inherited that from my dad. He had stacks & stacks of books and since I wasn't really good at sports I started reading them.
I used to collect Third Reich & Soviet era medals & badges. I managed to amass a fair sized collection (which I still have) before I stopped; realized that I pretty well had everything that I could afford.
Started playing SH III last year. Dad would have loved GWX. He liked flight sims but I'm sure that GWX would've gotten him hooked on SH III (much like I am :D). I think about him sometimes when I'm playing & say to myself "If only Dad could see this"...
The 1960s brought new movies like Sink The Bismarck, The Longest Day, Battle of Britain and others that showed me a wider view. It took years for me to find out the war didn't start on December 7, 1941.
I hope you have watch this movie too:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049665/
It is great that so many skippers have replied and actually echoed many of the thoughts and values that I myself hold dear. I was one of those servicemen that trained from the age of 16, as a Junior Soldier, on armour, to respond to the need of the Western Allies, to defend against the real threat of the warsaw pact, but never saw the chance to experience combat.
I have always held those who fought and died, so as to give me the freedom to make personal choices in my life, to follow whatever path I desire. My Grandfather on my Dad's side was an RSM in the Rifle Brigade and never forgave the Army, for not allowing him to see frontline service as he was deemed to be too old, but young enough to pass his knowledge on to others.
Them My Mum's Dad, served in the Royal Navy and initially served in the Med on Malta Convoys, but later was part of the force on MTB's that protected the Eastern coast of the UK, against the 'S' Boats and the U-Boats that might have gathered intelligence on the build up to 'D' day. It is also more telling that I spent many of my Holidays with them in a small seaside town, only a short distance from Slapton Sands, where all of those young men of the US Army and Navy, died in a sea that was cold and cruel, through errors and misfortune. I had heard about this many years before the story was released, because even although it was kept a secret, local fisherman, knew what had taken place and often prayed for their souls.
It must be said that to many of us who have not had the chance to visit the Pacific, that our views are often tainted in thinking it a warm and beautiful place, after learning of things like the voyages of Capt Cook, whereas the Atlantic is a cold and forbidding place; which I know is true as I have seen its power, through sunshine and storms.
I have been amazed that the teaching of history in schools now, seems to avoid too much discussion of WWII, leaning towards more modern events, which often seem to be tilted in a manner that meets the personal views of the teacher.
I enjoy MIlitary Modelling and simulations like Silent Hunter and earnestly believe that there is a serious side , to our hobby and discussion, in keeping history alive.
Then by keeping history alive, we continue to remember the warnings from the past and seek to keep alive the memory of those who gave the ultimate gift, in keeping freedom alive for us all to enjoy.
To me though the thought that 75% of those young men, who sailed off to war, in the U-Boat fleet, never returned and are on eternal patrol in the cold and dark of the Atlantic.
So for all those who have died, or suffer still through their service to keep freedom alive, I give daily thanks.
Hopefully not a sermon, but an echo of our gratitude, for our right to make choices in our lives.
Aye,
John:arrgh!:
The 1960s brought new movies like Sink The Bismarck, The Longest Day, Battle of Britain and others that showed me a wider view. It took years for me to find out the war didn't start on December 7, 1941.
I hope you have watch this movie too:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049665/
A film that shows what sheer determination and courage can achive and I was fortunate enough as a young child to meet Douglas Bader at an RAF station where my Dad served.
A great man and a wonderful film.
Aye,
John
Captain Nemo
09-10-08, 06:00 AM
Born in 1962 and as far back I can remember I have always taken an interest in WWII (both theatres) and WWI to some extent. My dad was to young to serve in the forces in WWII, however, two of his older brothers served in the Royal Navy. The eldest served from 1939 onwards in destroyers escorting the Atlantic convoys and the second eldest served from late 1944 in the Pacific in submarines in HMS Tiptoe. Sadly both are not with us now so I can't ask them about their experiences and didn't ask to much when I was younger because my dad said they very rarely discussed the war. Two things that stick in my mind today are something my uncle who served on submarines said. Soon after he joined the navy, they were looking for new recruits for submarines. Anyway, in a line up an officer asked for volunteers to step forward, when no one stepped forward the officer went along the line and picked people out, my uncle was one of them! So much for the RN saying that all submariners were volunteers! Also, during an American attack on one of the islands in the Pacific he witnessed through the periscope the bravery of the American soldiers who were leading the attack on the beaches. After seeing this he refused to say or hear anything bad about an American again.
Nemo
Rommer69
09-10-08, 06:47 AM
Born in 1969, in Spain, so though I´m very interested in WWII, both theatres, all types of battles (terrestrian, naval and aerial) and the Holocaust i have no family at all involved in any theatre and there are no militar staff relatives.
I like more ETO and the atlantic, but maybe only because the role of the US submarines is less known than their german counterparts and the role of the US navy in the pacific is better known for their surface and air battles.
I´ve always admire all the people who get involved, many of them by their own, to let us live our actual way of life. Honour to all of them.
But I love both SH3 and SH4. I play more SH3, but less than i would want!
Kielhauler1961
09-10-08, 07:56 AM
...and I was fortunate enough as a young child to meet Douglas Bader at an RAF station where my Dad served.
A great man...
Born in 1961. We are a load of 'oldsters' aren't we?
Douglas Bader groped my mother's @rse at an official function in the 1950's. She only told my father after the function had ended and he never spoke to Bader again.
My father was called-up in April 1940. He chose the Royal Navy (later my choice as well but under less trying circumstances). He first went to sea on HMS Patia, a CAM-ship that was sunk by the Luftwaffe in May 1941 in the North Sea off the Farne Islands.
After that he joined the Fleet Air Arm, flying Swordfish, and later, Grumman Avengers. He was aboard HMS Unicorn at the Salerno landings, where the ship's entire complement of Seafires were written-off in deck landing accidents in the first week, then back to Blighty via the USA for Avenger conversion training in time for D-Day.
On one ant-submarine patrol over the English Channel after D-Day (flying from RAF Manston in Kent), his air-gunner, Fred Shirmer, shot-down a V-1 with only 20 rounds of .50 calibre. This was the only instance of a non-fighter aircraft bringing down one of these weapons.
Then he was posted to 854 squadron, FAA, and joined HMS Illustrious on her trip with the British Pacific Fleet in 1944-45, bombing the oil refineries at Palambang in Sumatra and later the Japanese airfields on the islands of the Sakashima Gunto.
After the war, he re-trained as a test pilot and joined the Special Handling Squadron at Hullavington, England, in 1946, flying new allied and captured axis aircraft for evaluation. One day a friend of his, who was testing the Grumman Bearcat, suggested a race to my father. My dad was testing the de Haviland Sea Hornet, a navalised version of the Mosquito.
They went up to 20,000 feet and on a given signal pushed the throttles fully forward. The Sea Hornet 'just walked away' from the Bearcat...
He later went on to become Chief Test Pilot of the ARB, later the CAA. Some of you may have heard of his book: 'Handling the Big Jets' by D. P. Davies?
The flying stories he had were legion! Blimey, I've wandered off-topic a bit, got carried away!
Anyways, I tried SH4 but just couldn't get enthusiastic about it. U-Boats have always been my passion and ever since GWX and SH3 Commander and other mods have been available, SH4 just gathers dust on my shelf. ETO for me everytime.
onelifecrisis
09-10-08, 08:36 AM
Born in 77 - a bit later than most people in this thread. My grandparents were only children during WW2. But, on topic, I opted to study the 20th century in history classes at school, and although the two-year course did cover several major events in America (prohibition, the wall street crash, etc.) when it came to the wars the focus was heavily on Europe. We learned about about the "neutral" things America did before Pearl Harbor, and of course the attack on Pearl Harbor itself, and briefly about some supposedly important battle at somewhere called Midway ;), and then the US nuked Japan twice, and that was game over. And that was about all I learned on that side of things. But the wars in Europe were covered extensively, and that's definitely one reason why SH3 is interesting to me.
Also, with regards to ETO vs PTO... I knew before buying SH3 that the war had gotten harder and harder for RL U-boat crews, and that the game modelled this to some extent. This I saw (and still see) as "2 birds for 1 stone" for SH3: historical accuracy and a gradual increase in game difficulty! Those are both good things in any war simulation, and in SH3 they complement each other perfectly.
In contrast to that, my (limited) understanding of the PTO is that life got easier and easier for the US subs, and I've often wondered how SH4 gets around this problem without sacrificing historical accuracy or gameplay.
HuskerNlincoln
09-10-08, 08:41 AM
First of all, let me say, what a great topic. It is interesting the motivations why we play this game.
I was born in 1962 to a captian in the US Army, 30 year man.
My earliest memories are of my home growing up on base while he was in Tialand during the Vietnam war.
He served in all three WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, as a demolitions expert.
He didn't speak of his experiences, at all, I have no reference as to his career. My mother has shared portions of their time in Germany after the war, but very little.
I have always been fascinated with the machinery of war, but as a kid growing up didnt care for history that much.
As I got into my 20s and 30s the ETO became almost an obsession, and will watch read, study everything I can get my hands on.
I wonder if its me trying to in some way share my fathers experiences and to know him better.
sharkbit
09-10-08, 10:58 AM
Born in 1964 in Denver, Colorado.
I've had an interest in WWII since I was probably 8 or so. I lean towards the European theater more but I have quite a few books on the PTO as well.
I have an interest in the land war, air, and sea war with probably a leaning toward the land war more than the others, although for the past 5 months, I've been totally immersed in the Battle of the Atlantic, thanks to SH3. I've bought a ton of books on the subject, much to the dismay of my wife. :)
My dad served in the Army Air Corps during WWII as a gunner aboard B-17's flying out of Bury St. Edmunds, England. Unfortuneately, he passed away when I was 7. I never had a chance to talk to him about his experiences.
My step-dad was a mechanic on B-17's in England during the war and my father-in-law served in the Navy in the Pacific on a Net Tender. (Glamorous-no, but he does have some cool stories.)
:)
I was born in 1970 in the US and to me it's very simple...
War in the Atlantic = U-Boat
War in the Pacific = AC Carrier
It's probably just a natural tendency for a sub sim enthusiast to favor the theater in which the submarine was a more prominent strategic focus.
Another thing... There's not really a US equivalent to the German Type VII.
The US subs were all like the Type IX's. Wasn't really any good short to medium range sub in the US fleet.
There's a post at Uboat.net that I think sums up the differences between the Gato and VIIC very nicely.
http://www.uboat.net/forums/read.php?20,59236,59248
And purely from a gaming perspective...
I think if you like to exploit radar and gadgets, and prefer the stealthy single target ambush at distance. You'd probably prefer the US simulation.
If you're more of a "shoot-from-the-hip" type captain and like to get up close and personal with your targets then the German boats are going to be more fun.
I think it's more fun to play with a Gato in the Pacific than a Type IX in the Atlantic for instance. The real challenge, I think, is getting to the point where you enjoy both sims equally because you've learned to play to the advantages of each.
I was born in 1976 in the Netherlands, so well after the events of both sides of the war. However, they still had noticable effects on my early life. The pacific more than the european.
My dad was born halve a year after the Dutch East-Indies surrendered to the Japanese invasion. Shortly thereafter he and his mother and older brother (and more distant relatives) were put into concentration camps by the Japs ('Tjihapit' Bandung and later prison facility 'Struiswijk' in Batavia/Jakarta). Before that my granddad was already at sea fighting the Japs in the Java Sea, where I understand he got shipwrecked. I don't know which ship he was on, just that it was a dutch navy vessel. I only know he later had to work at the Burma railroad (so must have been taken captive as POW at some point) but managed to escape there eventually. Then enlisted himself in the Chinese Army to fight the Japs there, as he couldn't return to Java yet. And eventually also was assigned with Australian forces until the war was over and he returned to Holland. It's mindblowing considering what this man must have gone through and still survive. My dad, grandmother and his brother where the first to be repatriated to Holland, skin and bones. My granddad was later joined with them again there, skin and bones aswell but held together with metal plates. They returned back to Jakarta not long after, but then had to endure the following years as Indonesia fought for their own independance from the Dutch. Pretty scarry events aswel for a small kid of 5-10 years old.
I am slowly getting the desire to do some research into war-records of what happend to my paternal granddad. Very much a mistery-man to me. I only know him as a man on a photo. And stories from my dad and uncle's are sketchy at best as they were only a kid, atleast in those early days. And grandma didn't want to talk about that time later on because of the pain it caused. Well, granddad too no doubt considering. Unfortuneatly I never got to know the man as he died a year before my parents maried and a couple more before I was born.
On the european side my maternal grandmother lived in Arnhem (as in 'Market Garden') and was a nurse. She never talked about her experiences either. My somewhat younger maternal granddad (they hadn't met yet) was old enough to be put to forced labour in Germany so he went into hiding. As the Netherlands was liberated from Germany and the Indonesian indepence war started he was sent there as enlisted soldier to keep order. I don't remember what he may have told about what he experienced there, but I remember seeing the pain in his eyes when he tried to talk about it. My mother was born after the war so she didn't have any direct experiences from it.
For me this didn't create a desire for me to take history classes or anything (.. yet anyway). There wasn't given much attention to the pacific events during my school years (as far as Dutch East-Indies were concerned) anyway. Mostly the focus was on the european theater, and holocaust events. Ofcourse Hiroshima and Nagasaki because of the A-bomb, maybe Pearl Harbor to proof it had become a 'world war', ... but the rest mostly ignored. I just tried to pay as much attention as I could when those old stories were talked about in my (dad's) family. Asking about those experiences was like walking a minefield. Never sure how they would react. And the last thing a kid wants is to make his parent(s) cry, so better not bring it up anyway. Besides, all my dad had was vague images and erratic feelings he couldn't handle so cropped up inside. (triggered by things like Gulfwar '91/violence on the news, and glorification of Japanese culture like that 'ninja'-hype late 80s) He couldn't explain what he felt even if he wanted to. And I know he did.
So my experience of the war(s) was more like a funny (not so funny!!!) unexplainable tension in the family. Ofwhich I never thought that it had any real effect on me, ... until recent years. Realising much of how I behaved as a child was based on my dad's emotions. And indirectly mom's too. Those were more important than what I felt or needed. So these are the things that run through the back of my mind whenever I watch a war-movie, play a wargame or subsim.
Getting SH1 was I guess my (feeble) way to deal with this herritage. Sinking digital Japs. (seeking revenge, yet abstaining from violence --> no harm done to your karma :) ) I wish I understood more of the navigation and tracking techniques at that time to really enjoy the 'payback'. All I did was mostly portraiding, never convoys. Pretty much skipped Sh2 and was a late Sh3-er because I didn't have a good pc. And also I felt weird placing myself in German shoes/raincoat. Only last year did I have a good gfx card to play Sh3. Ofcourse, I would rather play Sh4 and 'do it right' this time. But again my pc is not up to specs for that.
I'm sorry if this message sounds more like a therapy session than a discussion on education. I guess I needed to get that of my chest.
Flamingboat
09-10-08, 01:20 PM
I was born in 1977 in a US Navy Hospital to two sailors. As much as I would like to glorify their "service" they were just two poor Americans with no options so they joined the military. For all you Europen and non American subsimers let me just say in America if you are not born into money you are screwed. Poor American's get a worthless high school diploma and we can join the military or pump gas. I did both actually. I joined the infantry on my 17th birthday thinking it was the proudest moment of my life. My last day in the service ended in South Carolina in a Navy brig. Let's just say I didn't fit in well with the "kindler gentler" army. I almost joined the French Foreign Legion, but then I decided I should grow a brain as it would be less painful.
My study about World War 2 history and other wars is the unpopular aspects. I study how America instigated Pearl Harbor as en excuse to enter world war 2, because at the time America wanted no part in it. Then there is of course the Lusitania. The gulf of Tonkin lie and many more. I study how America tested it's A-bombs on American troops to see what radiation did. I suggest you read up on the USS Liberty. Israel napalmed and torpedoed it to blame it on another middle eastern country to drag America into war in the middle east. Israel also at least allowed the Marine barracks to be blown up to drag us into a full blown war, they may have even helped the bad guys out. This stuff is important to study because it continues today. 9-11 anyone? I was a demo man in the army, I had to use a half pound of C4 just to blow up four strands of concertina wire, they want me to believe jet fuel caused sky scrapers to collapse? If history tells us anything, there is a lot more to things than the "official" version.
I also like to follow the money trails that start these wars. Hitler could not rise to power without the powerful banks behind him. What is shocking is to learn that Hitler had some powerful jewish bankers funding him. Ok, well you all get the drift. There is an old movie in America called the Wizard of Oz. There is a line in the end. "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". Well, you better!
I play SH3 and SH4 because I like the chess like aspect of the fighting. It's the right amount of action and it requires brains as well. It's not as boring and slow as Steel Panthers nor is it a Arcade shoot em up.
Flamingboat
09-10-08, 01:27 PM
I am slowly getting the desire to do some research into war-records of what happend to my paternal granddad. Very much a mistery-man to me. I only know him as a man on a photo.
Daddy's flown across the ocean
Leaving just a memory
Snapshot in the family album
Daddy what else did you leave for me?
Daddy, what'd'ja leave behind for me?!?
All in all it was just a brick in the wall.
All in all it was all just bricks in the wall.
Pink Floyd lyrics, "Another Brick in the Wall"
I am slowly getting the desire to do some research into war-records of what happend to my paternal granddad. Very much a mistery-man to me. I only know him as a man on a photo.
Daddy's flown across the ocean
Leaving just a memory
Snapshot in the family album
Daddy what else did you leave for me?
Daddy, what'd'ja leave behind for me?!?
All in all it was just a brick in the wall.
All in all it was all just bricks in the wall.
Pink Floyd lyrics, "Another Brick in the Wall"Thanks for quoting that! I appreciate it.
Here comes my bit. Since I just copied and pasted from my webbie, it is skeewed a bit toward writing. :|\\
One of my early childhood memories is the pre-dawn roar of lions in Chile’s Santiago Zoo. It marked me for a life of adventure. My first fear had been of the moon. It terrified me when it rose out of the darkness. My second fear was growing up and having to get a job. At least this last fear showed hints of intelligent life inside my head.
I grew up speaking Russian and Spanish. I listened to everything and stored it for future use. My parents called me the Sponge. When they didn’t want me to know what they were saying, they spoke in French. It took them some time to conclude I had learned French from them.
My first chance at writing came with a homework assignment at age eight. Write a one page free composition. I presented a four page unfinished novelette complete with ink spots, in German. It got me an F.
When I reached 18, I was no longer listening to anyone. My mother considered my epistles sent from various Far Eastern ports as masterpieces. She copied them and embarrassed me to all her relatives.
By my late twenties, I had been fairly successful in avoiding my childhood fear, work. After a hitch in the USMC, I packed a gun for a security outfit at night, went to flight school during the day. Aviation led me to Vietnam and Laos. Secretly, I wrote some explosive stuff for our pilot’s labor union. It is reported the American ambassador went livid after reading an inflammatory tract, and wanted to know who wrote this ****. Many years later, this little incident became part of the concept for a thriller.
After the Vietnam War, I wrote my first novel. It was so awful that I limited myself to writing brochures. Europe, Asia, South America, Africa, I flew, sailed, got married, survived a shipwreck. In Kenya started my own safari outfit, and learned my seventh language, Swahili. Since I was one of the few outfitters operating in poacher’s country and had excellent contacts, I got roped to work undercover for Kenya’s Anti-poaching Unit This resulted in the poachers, and their protectors (my employers) going after me. At the dinner table, my revolver sat neatly next to the fish knife.
In Kenya I wrote a series of novels, all left unfinished, and a few articles that got published. Back in Chile, I ran horseback trips into the Andes, and trained horses off-season. Trying to recoup my fortune, in the States, I sold boats and taught navigation. Sands of Maraviti, was my first attempt at thrillers and the beginning of serious writing. By the time I finished, I had lost my friends and my job that was too much like work. Free of encumbrances, I wrote Temple Drums. This novel brought patronage that allowed me to extend writing full time. Part of my writing life is coordinating online workshops, chat and critique groups for the writers' community on AOL.
I have conquered my fear of the moon, but still prefer the nights when the moon is hiding and friendly stars show me the way.
A number of Subsimers have read my novel Kingmaker.
Ping Panther
09-10-08, 02:02 PM
I just made it to my big 40 this past January. So that means I was an early vintage '68 kid.
I developed a very significant interest in world/military history from my early teenage years. I have always had an immediate appreciation for attempting to comprehend the enormous scope of how history, cultures, geopraphy, technology, diplomacy (often not having the best of possitive effects), attributes to the way one interprets the past and the present times. So this may have boiled down into an odly-combined life interest of architectural/cultural matters & military tactics/technologies & historic roles.
I would agree that the European/Atlantic campaigns of this era is more self-identifiable to Americans in their world history education (or lack of it). Since most Americans tend to have a strong majority of their ancestory linked to some landmark from Europe/U.K./Africa. While I would consider based only on my post-WW2 birth comprehension allows, was that the most immediate call to arms fury was was more stronly rooted in the U.S. to the military threat presented by the Japanese forces at the time as being perceived as more immediately urgent, despite the ongoing strife that the German forces had pressed for a considerable amount of years previously, yet it was determined at that time to be blurred from the American perception or direct policies to engage such a direct action. Once this has aged a couple generations of time, my experiences of the highschool education program did lean a certain 75% to the educational matters of the Atlantic war more than the Pacific.
My Grandmother had a brother serve in the U.S. Sub Fleet in the Pacific (he was involved more directly in the '43-'44 patrols, stationed at that time at Midway Naval Base. He attended submariners training school at the U.S. Sub base in New London, CT. (I recently made a visit to this base and viewed the USS-Nautilus sub & museum.) My Grandfather was in the Army (he had preferred to serve in the Navy; however, he was sorted 1-2-1-2... at the last minute in the enlistment offices, 1's were sent to the Navy... he drew a 2... Army you go!),and was deployed into the occupational forces in Japan after the bombing of Hiroshima. He contiuned from his Army career to join the U.S. Merchant Service in the Great Lakes. My Grandfather quite often took me, my brother & my folks for sails around Lake Erie when I was a kid, and I love sailing and the sea ever since. My Dad served in the U.S. Navy, and served on board the destroyer fleets in the Atlantic/Mediterranean Sea in the early '60's. So Silent Hunter has given me some immediate link back to some of my family naval heritage. (I took all 6 years of my highschool German as a second language courses, again, as a link to my Germanic family roots, and then along comes SH3 with the awesome German audio voice option.)
My first sub-simulator experiences were with Silent Service on a Commodore-128. I missed out on SH1, I then came across SH2 for a while, then took a big pause and have steadily wrapped myself even more, into an ever-continuing fascination/appreciation/dedication to exploring the many aspects of this era brought to a technological wonder inside of SH3. I hope to get my now dusty almost 2 year old disk of SH4 off the shelf and give it a spin, maybe. ;)
I was born in 1977 in a US Navy Hospital to two sailors. As much as I would like to glorify their "service" they were just two poor Americans with no options so they joined the military. For all you Europen and non American subsimers let me just say in America if you are not born into money you are screwed. Poor American's get a worthless high school diploma and we can join the military or pump gas. I did both actually. I joined the infantry on my 17th birthday thinking it was the proudest moment of my life. My last day in the service ended in South Carolina in a Navy brig. Let's just say I didn't fit in well with the "kindler gentler" army. I almost joined the French Foreign Legion, but then I decided I should grow a brain as it would be less painful.
Sounds like you've got issues beyond being born to "poor" Americans. I know of people who grew up in mobile homes, got by with C's in high school, put themselves thru basic college classes and now earn respectable salaries. You don't necessarily have to be rich or a genius to be successful in America. ...but there is something to be said for perseverence and common sense.
If anything, poor Americans are the least disadvantaged class of poor in the world. ...and to many foreign countries poor Americans are anything but poor.
Flamingboat
09-10-08, 04:03 PM
If anything, poor Americans are the least disadvantaged class of poor in the world. ...and to many foreign countries poor Americans are anything but poor.
So what you are really trying to say is "there are starving people in China!" ha ha. I know poor American's don't have it as bad as say a poor Peruvian or Burmese, but go tell that to the kid in a one traffic light town working at McDonald's in Nowhereville West Virginia. His country only needs him when they need to have someone do the dieing in a war. After that it's back to the fry cooker. Go look at the state of the VA hospitals even as I write this. After the war machine is "finished" with you, you're on your own.
As for having issues, well my mom and many ex's would agree, however that doesn't go very far in defending the lack of any real opportunity in America. My story ends well, I'm married to money, but if it wasn't for that I would be mopping a cargo ship loaded with rubber dog **** out of Hong Kong. :|\\
I would agree that the European/Atlantic campaigns of this era is more self-identifiable to Americans in their world history education (or lack of it). Since most Americans tend to have a strong majority of their ancestory linked to some landmark from Europe/U.K./Africa. While I would consider based only on my post-WW2 birth comprehension allows, was that the most immediate call to arms fury was was more stronly rooted in the U.S. to the military threat presented by the Japanese forces at the time as being perceived as more immediately urgent, despite the ongoing strife that the German forces had pressed for a considerable amount of years previously, yet it was determined at that time to be blurred from the American perception or direct policies to engage such a direct action. Once this has aged a couple generations of time, my experiences of the highschool education program did lean a certain 75% to the educational matters of the Atlantic war more than the Pacific.:-? :huh: Have you noticed how long one of those sentences became? Please get scissors. :up:
onelifecrisis
09-10-08, 04:12 PM
If anything, poor Americans are the least disadvantaged class of poor in the world. ...and to many foreign countries poor Americans are anything but poor.
So what you are really trying to say is "there are starving people in China!" ha ha. I know poor American's don't have it as bad as say a poor Peruvian or Burmese, but go tell that to the kid in a one traffic light town working at McDonald's in Nowhereville West Virginia.
Perhaps as a non-American I should stay out of this :-? but I really feel the need to say that I think Flamingboat touched on a very good point: everything is relative.
Flamingboat
09-10-08, 04:15 PM
My first chance at writing came with a homework assignment at age eight. Write a one page free composition. I presented a four page unfinished novelette complete with ink spots, in German. It got me an F.
That reminds me of an uncle of mine who flunked out of art school. He has been an artist his whole life and has never had to work a day in his life for "the man". He isn't famous or rich but he did well for himself.
I was told my life was "over" because I got a bad conduct discharge. I got hired by a top military contractor for Iraq even with that. I declined the offer as I had no intention of going, I just wanted to see if I could pull it off.
Flamingboat
09-10-08, 04:17 PM
Perhaps as a non-American I should stay out of this :-? but I really feel the need to say that I think Flamingboat touched on a very good point: everything is relative.
By all means jump on in. One big reason I like this forum is to hear from people around the globe.
If anything, poor Americans are the least disadvantaged class of poor in the world. ...and to many foreign countries poor Americans are anything but poor.
So what you are really trying to say is "there are starving people in China!" ha ha. I know poor American's don't have it as bad as say a poor Peruvian or Burmese, but go tell that to the kid in a one traffic light town working at McDonald's in Nowhereville West Virginia.
Perhaps as a non-American I should stay out of this :-? but I really feel the need to say that I think Flamingboat touched on a very good point: everything is relative.Yup, and my experience is is that comparing sorrow doesn't work. It only makes waves, ... bad ones for sure.
However, humility (not sure I got the right word here) is still a virtue. Better leave the comparing to the person him/herself.
Kielhauler1961
09-10-08, 06:17 PM
@ OLC:
DoB? Everybody else has...:up:
C'mon now...
I know it's hard to admit but America is not all that bad of a place to live.
I was born on a Naval base, and started my life in a mobile home parked in Nowheresville. So don't gimme that, "I'm disadvantaged" crap. I'm not gonna sit quiet while someone tells the rest of the world if you're not born rich in America you're screwed. My first jobs were minimum wage, and I had to scrape together my own money for community college courses. You've got opportunities.
...and I dont' really like when folks hi-jack threads that I start so I'm not gonna go any further on the topic because it seems to be slipping into a political commentary. Which I doubt was the intent of the OP.
Sailor Steve
09-10-08, 07:01 PM
@ OLC:
DoB? Everybody else has...:up:
So did he, Page 1, Post #15.
Madox58
09-10-08, 07:29 PM
Reading all the posts?
Gives me insight to what all of us were taught in our early years.
OLC was taught what was important to his area.
I was taught what was important to my area.
As others have pointed out for thier areas.
We, as an Inter-National Community?
We learn that not all we were taught is true,
nor complete!!
And I believe we all are learning a few most important things!
Don't believe everything your told by the News People
and Governments.
And don't place todays values and such on what happened in
the 40's.
Every decision back then was based on those times.
And each and every Country in the World based thier decisions
on the facts they had at the time.
To look back and say any country was wrong
by todays standards?
That's on a level saying Dinosaurs should not have ate each other!!
Steeltrap
09-10-08, 08:07 PM
Righto.
I'm Australian, born May '67.
My parents studied medicine, graduated 1952. They were born in 1926, so were at school during WWII. We had relatives killed in WWII. My parents knew friends/relatives of their families who were killed/captured, some in North Africa, others in the Pacific (it says something about the Japanese conduct in WWII that ALL decided being captured by the Gremans was infinitely preferable...mind you, about 4% of allied POWs died in German captivity, while the figure for those captured by Japs was around 26%.....so they were right!).
My interest in military history came about through playing war games in my teen years: all sorts of things from Tractics (rules for combat using 1/72 scale tank and soldier models) to Squad Leader, Midway, Bismarck, Second Frond, Fortress Europa etc..... I also got into RPGs (role playing, not the shoulder-launched variety!). My closest friends are those I've had since as far back as year 5 at school (yikes - that's 30+ years!!!!), and we all became friends partly through gaming.
I prefer Atlantic over Pacific because there is a steady swing from the Germans holding the advantages to the Allies doing so. The Allies get better escorts (and more of them), radar, better ASDIC, better weapons etc. The Germans get very little to offset that. In a game context, this means things get harder as the war progresses. It also means things get harder but you build experience to help cope with it. In short, there is a steady build up of tension and challenge.
The Pacific, in contrast, is a situation where the Allies continue to gain superiority in technology and resources. You get better boats, better torps, better radar etc. while the Japs gain very little in comparison (consider that Dick O'Kane was making surface attacks against convoys in 1944 as, even then, the Japs didn't have radar on most convoy escorts and, even when they did, it was so poor it wasn't a great influence on results!).
There's always the challenge of learning how best to use your boat's capabilities, and learn your enemies' strengths/weaknesses, so both sims have things to offer, but the Atlantic is always the more challenging for me (as it was historically).
As for other geopolitical comments etc I'll avoid them, although I do a lot of reading on such things (as it happens, I've just finished reading Nemesis: The Battle For Japan, 1944-45 by Max Hastings....a fascinating read).
One comment I will make is this: it frustrates me somewhat that most people in the Western world tend to overlook a fundamental truth about the European theatre of WWII - it was the USSR that was mainly responsible for the defeat of Germany.
Some really interesting info from other posters here!!
Cheers
Flamingboat
09-10-08, 09:54 PM
...and I dont' really like when folks hi-jack threads that I start so I'm not gonna go any further on the topic because it seems to be slipping into a political commentary. Which I doubt was the intent of the OP.
It's not a hijack because you don't like my story and viewpoint. If it would make you feel warm and fuzzy I could lie and say me and everyone in my family who joined the military dropped out of Yale and Harvard to uphold western civilization as we know it. :know:
Yes you do have to be rich in this and any other country. Take George Bush for example, if he didn't come from a powerful and rich family he would be your insurance agent, not your president.
Flamingboat
09-10-08, 10:12 PM
One comment I will make is this: it frustrates me somewhat that most people in the Western world tend to overlook a fundamental truth about the European theatre of WWII - it was the USSR that was mainly responsible for the defeat of Germany.
Some really interesting info from other posters here!!
Cheers
The USSR actually took Berlin. I do like to point this out here in the US. People get really angry because here in America we take 100% of the credit for beating Germany. America was an imporant part of a large coalition. America still talks about World War 2 like it was last week though. I can understand it because we have not won a war since. Korea, Vietnam and now Iraq. Our track record has been disastrous since. I think we are starting to look like Al Bundy from married with children who won't shut up about his touchdown pass back in highschool.
\
Steeltrap
09-10-08, 10:24 PM
I think the point was that this was intended to be a thread commenting on why people play the sim, and their preference for Atlantic or Pacific theatres.
Having said that, you're entirely correct in saying you've a right to express your views on the matter, including your own perspective on 'social' matters in the USA.
Just on that, there are any number of things one might observe:
* a 'pension' for ex-presidents was introduced as a result of President Truman leaving office without much in the way of personal assets. Given every president since has been a multimillionaire, this is somewhat ironic.
* the US has (indeed pretty much every society throughout history) always had a 'tradition' of the materially disadvantaged fighting the wars of the advantaged. In the civil war it was possible to avoid the draft if one had $300 dollars or an 'alternative' to fight on your behalf. There were cases of people sending slaves to fight instead of going themselves.
* you can add race to the mix. 'Non-white' groups tend to be materially disadvantaged so make up a disproportionate level of armed forces compared with their proportion of society at large. The US Army had separate blood transfusions for african american troops during WWII......
* most of these things boil down to the inevitable consequences of 2 related factors: human nature, and a system in which aggregation of personal wealth is seen as a worthy end unto itself (and I would apply that to any society, not just the USA, although it varies by degree depending on which society you consider). The fact is that the USA, as the richest nation on earth, could readily alleviate the sufferings of the majority of its citizens were there the will to do so. That it fails so egregiously to do so (consider the fact that there are something like 40,000,000 people without access to health care in the USA!!!!) is a direct consequence of a society preferring to place individual wealth and advantage over a sense of community. Do some research into what are even conservative estimates of the expenditure on the war in Iraq and then consider what that might have achieved in areas such as health and education and one is left with the inevitable conclusion that the USA feels it is better served killing people abroad than looking after its own citizenry. I find it hard to reconcile that with the stated position of being "the last, best hope of mankind on earth" or words to that effect.....
* none of this is intended to discount the many good things the USA does across the globe, for which it recieves scant recognition. It does, however, point out the many inconsistencies able to be found in such apparently contradictory behaviour.
* I once attended a function at which President Bush (the elder) was the featured guest (it was sponsored by my employer at the time). I asked him how he reconciled the fact that, in the last census, approximately 96% of respondants identified themselves as Christian, yet there persisted - domestically and internationally - no end of behaviour/policy/attitudes that were anything but reflective of what a really 'Christian' society might be expected to exhibit. They couldn't get the microphone away from me quickly enough.....
Anyway, without intending any disrespect to Flamingboat or any other poster, perhaps we're better served discussing the sim than these other issues. I'm happy to discuss these issues, mind you, but that is probably a discussion better conducted elsewhere.....
Cheers all!
Kielhauler1961
09-11-08, 04:50 AM
@ OLC:
DoB? Everybody else has...:up:
So did he, Page 1, Post #15.
My bad! Missed that. Apologies.
Flamingboat
09-11-08, 07:12 AM
* I once attended a function at which President Bush (the elder) was the featured guest (it was sponsored by my employer at the time). I asked him how he reconciled the fact that, in the last census, approximately 96% of respondants identified themselves as Christian, yet there persisted - domestically and internationally - no end of behaviour/policy/attitudes that were anything but reflective of what a really 'Christian' society might be expected to exhibit. They couldn't get the microphone away from me quickly enough.....
Cheers all!
I can help you with that mystery. The American republican party and the Bush's especially are only "christian" at election time. Go check out the Bohemian grove, they are all a bunch of boy lovers. They are all war profiteers from Conneticuit. All three of them. Speaking of the Bush dynasty and World War 2. Look up Bush one, current George W's Grandfather. He was a world war 2 profiteer. He made money funding the Nazi's in th early days. Back then war profiteering was illegal, it isn't now as you can plainly see in Iraq.
It isn't fair to tell me to shut it, when you all bring up these juicy tidbits like the Bush's or how Russia took down Germany :roll:
I mean come on, you all act like you you have never seen a liberal uboat commander!
Flamingboat
09-11-08, 07:30 AM
I think the point was that this was intended to be a thread commenting on why people play the sim, and their preference for Atlantic or Pacific theatres.
The thread is titled "Pause for thought differences in education" People are giving their age and any military background, or that of family members if any. I commented on this thread as it is a socioeconomic topic beyond just "why you play the game." I told my brief story about where I was born and to whom for the same reason everyone else did. To paint a short picture of how environmental determinism played or did not play a part in my views.
Being born working class in America as I said made me enlist, now had I been rich I would have joined but only after going to a Westpoint or another military academy. I found out when I enlisted that I knew more military history than most of the officers. I have seen troops complaining about getting sniped in Iraq hanging out of the top of the turrets on their tanks. I could have told them tha is called "pulling an Israeli" 12 years ago.
Yes you do have to be rich in this and any other country.
OK, well now you're just screwed if you live on Earth and you're not rich.
Sorry bout that... :nope:
It's not that I don't like your life story, but your repeated message that you must be rich in America (and now I guess any country on Earth) or you're screwed is just patently false.
I told you, I was born into the same working class family as you. My social status did not force me to enlist. Perhaps you felt like you had no other choice because you didn't want to go to school anymore? ...that was your choice. If you can get by with C's in high school and hold down a min-wage job, you can take community college courses at night (I did).
Your assessment does not apply to me nor the vast majority of the professionals that I work with. If I'm telling you that you're absolute statement is false, and I'm proof; that it does not apply to me or the vast majority of my colleagues, I don't understand how you can keep repeating it as if I don't exist.
In 10 years I've come across maybe 3 trust-fund babies... Do you just classify everyone as screwed if they're not the CEO of a company? I'm in middle-management, I do fairly well. I'm not rich... but I'm certainly not screwed.
How much do you think a household needs to make in the US (or the world) to not be screwed?
Flamingboat
09-11-08, 09:58 AM
you can take community college courses at night (I did).
Your assessment does not apply to me nor the vast majority of the professionals that I work with. If I'm telling you that you're absolute statement is false, and I'm proof; that it does not apply to me or the vast majority of my colleagues, I don't understand how you can keep repeating it as if I don't exist.
That settles it. You are middle management in Florida. That totally proves there are no poor people in America. That also disproves that people enlist mostly due to economic difficulties. I guess the big recruiting offices in poor cities are coincidence. Logic like this and some people say a community college degree is worthless. I guess you showed them!
I'm sorry you are uncomfortable with the fact that our or any other military consists mostly of people with no choices economically. Do you really think the poor black kid from Detroit over in Iraq at this writing gives a crap about any of this military history? No, he didn't want to starve or end up in prison. It's reality.
Trust me I wish the military was like the movies make it out to be. I really do, however, that is not the case. I'm not going to lie for them and keep the propaganda flowing.
That settles it. You are middle management in Florida. That totally proves there are no poor people in America. That also disproves that people enlist mostly due to economic difficulties. I guess the big recruiting offices in poor cities are coincidence. Logic like this and some people say a community college degree is worthless. I guess you showed them!
I never set out to disprove the existence of poor people. My posts have been in direct contradiction to your repeated claims that if you're not rich in America you're screwed.
Shortly after I was born on the naval base, my parents moved to a suburb of Detroit and my dad welded bumpers on cars at the Ford plant til I was about 5, we lived in a mobile home.
Everyone has opportunities... I can't fill out the paperwork and do the homework for them. If you have the will to succeed, you certainly can.
I'm sorry that your experience in the US Infantry didn't pan out like the movies. Although, that movie Jarhead, or Blackhawk Down, or any of the WWII or Vietnam movies of the last decade, don't exactly strike me as big recruitment drivers. The movies I've seen suggest the infantry is a very dangerous and perhaps even depressing place to be.
What would you define as a reasonable household income to not be screwed?
Flamingboat
09-11-08, 11:04 AM
What would you define as a reasonable household income to not be screwed?
Off the top of my head you would need a combined family income of close to 200,000 a year. This is for only one child. If you want that child to go to the right private school so they can then go to the right college. After all that they then need to go to graduate school. Today a four year degree from even a decent school alone will leave you working as a barista at starbucks. Bear in mind a good college isn't as easy as getting in. You have cars, laptops, books, housing etc. So even if Jr. from Nowhereville gets a perfect SAT, he will most likely have to pass on a good scholarship because he can't afford the basics.
If you can't afford this then your kid ends up in middle management in the south, like Florida. *shudder
Flamingboat
09-11-08, 11:05 AM
[quote=aaronblood]Although, that movie Jarhead, or Blackhawk Down, or any of the WWII or Vietnam movies of the last decade, don't exactly strike me as big recruitment drivers. quote]
The Navy had record recruitment when Top Gun was popular and when the Village People's song "In the Navy" was a chart topper.
hehe
Actually my 3 kids all attend private school... and I don't make $200k and my wife stays home, and I happen to like Palm Beach, but that's beside the point.
What do the rest of you all think?
Is $200k per household the minimum threshhold to not be screwed in the US?
I'd put it considerably lower, probably by more than half.
When you said "rich" I thought you were referring to the top 5% of the population. Your $200k mark is more like upper-middle class. Barriers to enter that class are typically tied to the accumulation of credentials and education. Those aren't millionaires.
[quote=aaronblood]Although, that movie Jarhead, or Blackhawk Down, or any of the WWII or Vietnam movies of the last decade, don't exactly strike me as big recruitment drivers. quote]
The Navy had record recruitment when Top Gun was popular and when the Village People's song "In the Navy" was a chart topper.
hehe
So Top Gun influenced your decision to join the US Army Infantry?
(incidentally, that's a 20yr old movie)
You were what, in 4th grade when Top Gun came out? I was a sophomore in HS, it was an exciting movie, but it didn't make me run out and enlist in the Navy. Somehow I managed to figure out that flying jets would actually require me to do more than enlist.
Maybe you're parents were influenced by the Village People... you were probably still in diapers.
Sailor Steve
09-11-08, 11:41 AM
What do the rest of you all think?
Is $200k per household the minimum threshhold to not be screwed in the US?
I'd put it considerably lower, probably by more than half.
No. All anybody has to do is strive. Opportunities abound. J.K. Rowling isn't American, she's British, but when she started the first Harry Potter book she was a working welfare mother. Now she's literally "richer than the Queen of England."
The point is that it is possible to make it out of poverty and into practically any level you can imagine, if the desire and the willingness to work are there. On the other hand it's possible to do just the opposite. I was born fairly well off, with a free ride to college. I hated school, so I dropped out and joined the navy. Finished with that, changed states, married, kids, divorced, never managed to find a niche that worked for me, tried this, did that, and now I'm struggling just to not be homeless again; mainly because I could never make myself work at a job I didn't like just for the sake of doing it.
In spite of being about as poor as poor can be, I still see America as the 'land of opportunity'.
Flamingboat
09-11-08, 03:09 PM
[quote=aaronblood]Although, that movie Jarhead, or Blackhawk Down, or any of the WWII or Vietnam movies of the last decade, don't exactly strike me as big recruitment drivers. quote]
The Navy had record recruitment when Top Gun was popular and when the Village People's song "In the Navy" was a chart topper.
hehe
So Top Gun influenced your decision to join the US Army Infantry?
(incidentally, that's a 20yr old movie)
You were what, in 4th grade when Top Gun came out? I was a sophomore in HS, it was an exciting movie, but it didn't make me run out and enlist in the Navy. Somehow I managed to figure out that flying jets would actually require me to do more than enlist.
Maybe you're parents were influenced by the Village People... you were probably still in diapers.
I didn't say I was influenced by either of these. They are factually the times when the Navy set recruitment records. I was responding to your statement about movies not looking like recruitment ads when in fact pop culture heavily influences recruitment.
At any rate you have thoroughly derailed this thread aaronblood and I am going to stop posting here out of respect for the subsim community. You have latched on to one thing I said that has offended your delicate right-wing sensibilities when I pointed out my parents nor myself had many options past the military as early life job choices.
Tell Rush Limbaugh I said hi, but I don't think you can afford his neighborhood. I like that guy, he made millions off angry white males.
[quote=aaronblood]Although, that movie Jarhead, or Blackhawk Down, or any of the WWII or Vietnam movies of the last decade, don't exactly strike me as big recruitment drivers. quote]
The Navy had record recruitment when Top Gun was popular and when the Village People's song "In the Navy" was a chart topper.
hehe
So Top Gun influenced your decision to join the US Army Infantry?
(incidentally, that's a 20yr old movie)
You were what, in 4th grade when Top Gun came out? I was a sophomore in HS, it was an exciting movie, but it didn't make me run out and enlist in the Navy. Somehow I managed to figure out that flying jets would actually require me to do more than enlist.
Maybe you're parents were influenced by the Village People... you were probably still in diapers.
I didn't say I was influenced by either of these. They are factually the times when the Navy set recruitment records. I was responding to your statement about movies not looking like recruitment ads when in fact pop culture heavily influences recruitment.
At any rate you have thoroughly derailed this thread aaronblood and I am going to stop posting here out of respect for the subsim community. You have latched on to one thing I said that has offended your delicate right-wing sensibilities when I pointed out my parents nor myself had many options past the military as early life job choices.
Tell Rush Limbaugh I said hi, but I don't think you can afford his neighborhood. I like that guy, he made millions off angry white males.
I specifically said movies of the last decade. Yeah those old movies/songs boosted enlistment... 10 years before you joined.
You and your parents had the same options and opportunities that I've had.
I'm sorry I thought it was you that was quoting the title of the thread as justification to rant on about all Americans making less than $200k a year being screwed.
I was talking about movies in the last decade, those ones that you were eluding to that glorified the US Infantry life presumably around the time you joined up.
A Democrat in the white house isn't gonna boost the salaries of the working class to $200k. So I guess we're all still screwed...
Steeltrap
09-11-08, 10:18 PM
It isn't fair to tell me to shut it, when you all bring up these juicy tidbits like the Bush's or how Russia took down Germany :roll:
I don't recall telling you to 'shut it'. In fact I don't recall 'telling' you anything. I'm more than happy for people to express their views. I think it's more helpful if those views are expressed in a thread to which the views are relevant. My own view is that these discussions have moved well away from the purpose stated by the instigator of this thread.
I make no criticisms of fellow subsim members in these posts, nor do I try to tell them their views are invalid. I do take note when people start putting words into my mouth, even if that was not what the poster intended.
Please people stay on track....
this topic was so nice and worthful it would be a shame to hijack it and start a different kind of discussion -which belongs to the general topics forum-
To get back to the theme:
I was born in 1972 and I'm spaniard, so I hardly could have a connection to the WW2 and/or cold war history, as my country didn't participate in neither of them. Yet I followed the long time familiy tradition of receiving a german education and studyied in a german school, where I learned to love the german culture and understood their history. Of course I was -and still am- decidedly "pro-german" and have always admired their culture (Philosophy, Classic Music, Literature).
As a child I used to sail with my grandfather in sailboats in the Mediterranean coast, and I always loved that. Finally, I liked very much to read since I was able to hold a book myself, and 20.000 Lagues under the Sea was the book that most impressed me as a child.
Put that puzzle together, german, sea, submarine.....and add the first watching of Das Boot in 1985 or so, and you get a good picture of how I fell inloved with submarines, specially U-Boots.
Nevertheless, I grew up in the 80s and back then the American culture (Films, pop music, McDonalds, Nike) ruled here, so I got interested for their participation in that "far" war and soon discovered their submarine campaign. Silent Service was also the first submarine simulation I had the chance to play, and as is typichal in me, I combine the gameplay with a huge "real life" research to feel more inmersed.
The rest is history :rock:
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