sonar? what's going on?

[makman94]

hello everybody !!

i am just wondering what' s going on with tha sonar ! it's awful... ,i mean the sonarman sometimes catch a contact at 25km,other times at 20 km,17 km...etc
i know that this is a big broblem ( beaf sonarman....) but i have to say this: i don't need any other skins , guns , torpedoes ...visual mods (i don't mean that i didn't love the work of all the modders that involved with all theese.they got the perfection..)
but what about the game?
it suffers with this sonar and need emergency healing! it's sad this amazing game to be betrated by it's own mother .the sonar was the most critical part of the subs , a REAL simulator has to respect that.ubi didn't pay attention to that??
and why ubi is so silent about that??
(see the work of jane's simulator at 688 for the sonar....it was the half game! )

please modders focus on that (it's a request...not an order !!! :-) )
this game is flerting with perfection ,if sonar works it will touch the perfection !
does anybody knows if the sonar works ok at sh4 ?? (i played it for a bit but it doesn't have the amazing atmosfere of sh3 imo and i quit )

thank you for reading...greetings

[nirwana]

Sonar range isnt a constant number. It depends on the weather, waves, speed of the target, ure bearing to it, ure depth, speed etc.

In my experience using sonar manually increase the range up to 100% (if conditions are perfect and the target is a large convoy).

[Barrett]

well you have to remember, that in your type VII or Type IX is no Signal Processor and no Software like in that Los Angeles Class Sub in 688(i) H/K ;) so your sonar isn't that effectiv, even though you get contacts over decent range most of the time ;) remember, they won't shoot you when you're still 17kms away ;)

[Sag75]

Hi, in the realism settings you can switch off the option Realistic Sensors. This gaves you the maximum sensors performance.

Anyway, just talking with myself, the SH3's sonar perfection is its rudimentary, indeed!

[meduza]

Man the hydrophones yourself. You will hear propeler noise 30km away. If you don't want to bother, have at least one man with Radioman specialization and give him the German cross ASAP, to remove fatigue.

[makman94]

nirwana: i understand that it depends from the conditions (as it shoulds) but the problem is that it doing me so in the same mission.(i mean playing one mission and the sonar get it at 25km,replay the SAME mission and get it at 20 km....) do you think that i have some kind of bug?
using sonar manually is out of discussion becuase i have to be always at sonar room which is impossible!
barrett:i know that the sonar of 688 was different (i said only for the work they have done at jane's) but i don't want to catch the contacts only for not be spotted.when condition are very bad (heavy rain,night ....) i want a good sonarman when it gets in sonar area to inform me exactly in order to mark his position on navmap and start 'watching' the target (see sh3 hydrophone hunting tutorial by raduz)
meduza: i will try that ,i wish to works...

thank you all for replies

[Sag75]

.(i mean playing one mission and the sonar get it at 25km,replay the SAME mission and get it at 20 km....) do you think that i have some kind of bug?
thank you all for replies


Hi, probably you're right, but remember you are listening in passive mode, so you have no informations about the distance.. the only way to have an ROUGH estimate is the noise level and this is why the Sonaman just says to you "long/medium/short distance". Moreover the sonar lines on Navmap are artefactual: try to play at 100% of realism and you will not see never more that lines on your map....

good hunting! :ping:

[Madox58]

There are probability modifiers on all sensors.
So you can play the same mission over and over,
and not detect a contact at the exact same time
and place, every time you play the mission.

[nirwana]

In my experience the reliability to calculate the distance with the sonar line in the maps is at those distances +- 5km minimum. Only when the target is less then 5km from u its pretty accurate otherwise use it only to plot its projected course.

In those days a visual based attack was standard. Sonar was mainly used to detect and track hostiles from the distance beyond the visual range. I submerge every hr and check if there is anything in range the deckwatch cant see.

[gAiNiAc]

Sonar works fine. Which means barely at all, it gives you a crude tactical picture. Frankly the "lines" are a cheat, but then again you don't have a tracking party.

[makman94]

i think that you have missed the point ! i play sh3 with no map update (witch means that i haven't sonar lines at my navmap ! )
the point is that: when sonarman says for FIRST time 'long range' that means that the target must be exactly at 20km ( unless ....he is ...beaf ! :lol:) ,he also gives us the bearing so we can mark the exact position at the map.

a lot of testing shows me that the sonarman screams long range when he want and not when the target enters the circle with radious 20 km ! thats the broblem (see the hydrophone hunting tutorial by raduz and you will get the picture ....)

privateer: thank you for that information....you think that the sonarman isn't beaf at last?

[gAiNiAc]

i think that you have missed the point ! i play sh3 with no map update (witch means that i haven't sonar lines at my navmap ! )
the point is that: when sonarman says for FIRST time 'long range' that means that the target must be exactly at 20km ( unless ....he is ...beaf ! :lol:) ,he also gives us the bearing so we can mark the exact position at the map.

a lot of testing shows me that the sonarman screams long range when he want and not when the target enters the circle with radious 20 km ! thats the broblem (see the hydrophone hunting tutorial by raduz and you will get the picture ....)

privateer: thank you for that information....you think that the sonarman isn't beaf at last?

The range the sonar man gives you is a randomized estimate, it isn't supposed to be exact...........

[makman94]

hello gainiac ,are we talking about the real life or about the game?

[gAiNiAc]

hello gainiac ,are we talking about the real life or about the game?

The game specifically, but in real life I'm sure that a sonar operator, at the time could not accurately (beyond an aducated guess) estimate the target range without an actual active input.

[makman94]

well,in that case you have to accept that the behaviour of sonarman is ordered by some files.if that files orders sonarman to say 'long range' when the target enters 20km radious circle he has to do so....or is something wrong here (i agree in general lines with you but privateer gave us a good information.if the sensor values are randomized is there a way to set the probability at 100% to alert us when the target enters that circle?)

[gAiNiAc]

if the sensor values are randomized is there a way to set the probability at 100% to alert us when the target enters that circle?)

Well..........What fun would that be? Why should it not be random?

[nirwana]

the point is that: when sonarman says for FIRST time 'long range' that means that the target must be exactly at 20km
This doesnt make sense. A target running at max or medium speed is earlier spotted then a target at low speed or with idling engine among other factors influence it. Its a passive sensor and relies on the behavior of the target.

[Pisces]

If the hydro-operator says "long range" when the target crosses the exact 20km radius it would be a big spoiler and far away from reality. Range based on listening to soundlevel is everything but exact science. Too many variables. I allready have a problem with the hardcapped max range of 34km. If you hear it yourself, you know it is within that. If not, you can be sure nothing is within that range. The max range should extend out beyond the range a screw would be audible.

I disagree though that you would need to be in the hydrophone-shack all the time if you do the listening yourself. Just a quick listen and go about your business again. If you found something just head towards it or lead it some in the direction of the drifting sound. Checking again some 15-30 minutes later for a changing bearing and correct your course.

But if you want to know a bit more about it's motion before sprinting towards it try this:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=875260#post875260

[makman94]

nirwana : you are absolutely right (nevermind about the reality so much,i don't think that sh3 'reads' all theese parameters)

pisces:yes i can hear it but sonarman is silence (sometimes don't inform me if something get's in sonar's area - circle with radius 34km,i think that this is another broblem that must be solved.i understand that it depends about too many parameters as nirwana said)
i am saying that i must be always at sonar room(to be more exact i mean to order sonarman to give me report) because i want to 'catch' the moment that he will say for first time 'long range' or 'medium range'...(medium range means,at least at my settings, circle with 8km radius)thank you for the link you gave.it seams very interesting and will look at it with attention
thank you all and sorry if sometimes i get monotone...

[Sag75]

Hi, interesting discussion, I toke a look in Sensor.dat by using SH3ditor. Following are what about GHG/KDB hydrophones parameters:


GHG
SensorType=Hydrophone
PreciseRange=0
MaxRange=25000 (There are also GHG_9 and GHG_2 at 20000 in the Dat file)
MinHeight=-300
MaxHeight=0,0
MinSensorHeight=-500
MaxSensorHeight=-3
Surface=0,0
RPMDetLevel=0,25
SweepPeriod=30
SweepArc=16
ProbInsideArc=0,95
Revolving=False
SkipSweep=True
Bearing(..)=2/150;210/350

KDB
SensorType=Hydrophone
PreciseRange=0
MaxRange=25000 (There are also a KDBtype9 at 20000 in the Dat file)
MinHeight=-300
MaxHeight=0,0
MinSensorHeight=-500
MaxSensorHeight=-3
Surface=0,0
RPMDetLevel=0,25
SweepPeriod=30
SweepArc=16
ProbInsideArc=0,95
Revolving=True
SkipSweep=True
Bearing(..)=0/160;200/360


This is what i found in CFG files:
;Hydrophone
Hydrophone range factor=1
Hydrophone fog factor=0
Hydrophone light factor=0
Hydrophone waves factor=0.2
Hydrophone speed factor=0.5
Hydrophone enemy speed=0
Hydrophone aspect=0
Hydrophone noise factor=0.4
Hydrophone sensor height factor=0
Hydrophone already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]
Hydrophone decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Hydrophone uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]




We can try to increase MaxRange up to 35000m and let see in the operator can hear a contact at this distance. Or we can modify the ProbInsideArc (the Detection probability inside the sweep arc.). Also note that "hydrophone uses crew efficiency"=true.

[makman94]

Hi, interesting discussion, I toke a look in Sensor.dat by using SH3ditor. Following are what about GHG/KDB hydrophones parameters:


GHG
SensorType=Hydrophone
PreciseRange=0
MaxRange=25000 (There are also GHG_9 and GHG_2 at 20000 in the Dat file)
MinHeight=-300
MaxHeight=0,0
MinSensorHeight=-500
MaxSensorHeight=-3
Surface=0,0
RPMDetLevel=0,25
SweepPeriod=30
SweepArc=16
ProbInsideArc=0,95
Revolving=False
SkipSweep=True
Bearing(..)=2/150;210/350

KDB
SensorType=Hydrophone
PreciseRange=0
MaxRange=25000 (There are also a KDBtype9 at 20000 in the Dat file)
MinHeight=-300
MaxHeight=0,0
MinSensorHeight=-500
MaxSensorHeight=-3
Surface=0,0
RPMDetLevel=0,25
SweepPeriod=30
SweepArc=16
ProbInsideArc=0,95
Revolving=True
SkipSweep=True
Bearing(..)=0/160;200/360


This is what i found in CFG files:
;Hydrophone
Hydrophone range factor=1
Hydrophone fog factor=0
Hydrophone light factor=0
Hydrophone waves factor=0.2
Hydrophone speed factor=0.5
Hydrophone enemy speed=0
Hydrophone aspect=0
Hydrophone noise factor=0.4
Hydrophone sensor height factor=0
Hydrophone already tracking modifier=20 ;[detection probability modifier]
Hydrophone decay time=150 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Hydrophone uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]




We can try to increase MaxRange up to 35000m and let see in the operator can hear a contact at this distance. Or we can modify the ProbInsideArc (the Detection probability inside the sweep arc.). Also note that "hydrophone uses crew efficiency"=true.

hello sag75,i am afraid that i 'll disappoint you because the broblem isn't so simple as it looks .

rubini had tried to do something about that but no more news till today (see that thread: [REL]Visual and Hydrophone detection issue: a new workaround )

i 'll try your suggestion and i 'll informe you if i have had any luck ! (my knowledge at editing files is very low and rubini saying that it is difficult i have to accept it....)

thank you for your time,greetings

[Sag75]

Hi, i'm agree, i'm sorry my post didn't want appear so resolutive.. I just toke a look and let see..

I think there are many other variables in all SH3 files that are not visualizable by any editors because encrypted..

anyway ..the hunt goes on!

[makman94]

hello,

sag75 it didn't work but as you said the hunt goes on ....

meduza: i put one man with Radioman specialization and give him the German cross but ...no luck

anyway .... i will surface for a while and look around ! :lol:

[Madox58]

I glanced at all the thoughts,
So if I missed something?
Just point it out.

In the SH3 World?
We are limited to what We can do.
That's always the grip point.
"Who's Mod does it better!"

It will never be perfect for everyone.
And I believe it will never be even close to
what We expect!!

Give me PERFECT data on what happened
on a U-Boot in real life?

I could try to duplicate it in Game.
But I know the engine will NOT cover all the Real Life
stuff.

It's a Game.
Nothing is perfect.
Nothing ever will be perfect.

UBI said 'BYE BYE' to SH3 along time ago.
And until they release the source?

We are, to put it lightly, screwed.

[makman94]

I glanced at all the thoughts,
So if I missed something?
Just point it out.

In the SH3 World?
We are limited to what We can do.
That's always the grip point.
"Who's Mod does it better!"

It will never be perfect for everyone.
And I believe it will never be even close to
what We expect!!

Give me PERFECT data on what happened
on a U-Boot in real life?

I could try to duplicate it in Game.
But I know the engine will NOT cover all the Real Life
stuff.

It's a Game.
Nothing is perfect.
Nothing ever will be perfect.

UBI said 'BYE BYE' to SH3 along time ago.
And until they release the source?

We are, to put it lightly, screwed.


you are right privateer (your post was very nice) but after so many surprises (sometimes big surprises) that modders did to me ,i thought that this one could be set !

if it is pain in the ass ,well ....you know ,perfection can ...wait ! maybe the fixing is sometimes better than the playing !;)

but ubi is out of words....i still wait the sh4 ,i mean the REAL sh4

thank for the reply