CHESS: Subsim team versus Letum

[Skybird]

Well, I fire up another chess thread now. Letum maybe wants to be the opponent again, if I got you correct? I recommend that those players considerign themselves to be beginners jpoin in a team there, and discuss their move suggestions - and the reason why they think of that move. It would be nice if Letum waits with his move, until a consensus is there. I will jump in and comment on any erratic thoughts. I will not suggest moves, though, only make you guys start asking the right questions.

It is an experiment, of course. Let'S see how it works out. In best case, we get a lot of communication and hoepefully a very vivid thread.

Is there enough interest to have a second chess thread where tactics and rules and principles get introduced in one essay per item? Anybody knowing his stuff could volunteer to write a posting about his favourite thing. A given opening for example. The tactical use of Zugzwang/compulsory moves. Berger's square.

Kranz, Kurtz, Lance,
your moment to begin with White's first move. Give your ideas behind your suggestions in brief form.

And for heaven'S sake, number your moves! How shouold one refer to your moves if the list already shows 60 half moves?

[UnderseaLcpl]

Good fun! What shall we do first?

[Skybird]

I emailed the other two over their interest. Let'S give Letum some time to react to the other thread and this one.

If nothing happens within some hours, suggest your first move. If Letum does not show up, I'll take his part.

[Letum]

What the......? :o

I don't like these odds!
But I'm up for it. ;)

I promise not to read any move discussion posted here if you put the move you decide on in large font so I can find it without skim-reading any other move discussion.
*edit* So obviously I won't reply to anything thats not in bold if you do want me to read it.

*edit2*
Ignore everything above! How about the team discusses moves in the old Letum Vs Undersea post and I wont go there.

*edit3* ignore all of the above and read what Skybird said. I am basicaly clueless.

Move 1.
E2-E4

[UnderseaLcpl]

Ok you're white I guess. Apologies in advance for the lengthy discourse that is sure to accompany each move.

[Skybird]

Okay, then Letum plays white, against Lance, and whoever will join.

Black (subsim Team) to make it's move. Make your suggestions. Letum gives some time for the others to react.

And letum, it is okay to read what is written here.this is not so much a duel match but to get bthe starters on track. It is not so much about the result, but to make them think from different perspectives about their moves. By writing their reaosn for their move suggestions, i can show them were they simply think wrong, or have overseen something, or base on false assumptions. I will not give them direct move suggestions.

[Skybird]

Lance suggested 1..../Ng8-f6 in the old and (hopefully shut down) thread.

The advantages would be that I could have more freedom to devlop my strategy with my queen and bishop, I would block the forward progress of his pawn, and I would establish a presence in the center of the board.

No, you do not stop the forward movement, in fact, you invited him for an opening called Aljechin defense whose purpose is to provoke the andvance of e4-e5, and make him move d2-d4 and more pawn moves instead of developing his figures. In that opening Black accepts that he makes many moves with his knight as well. Both parties play illogical here, but Black hopes to have a slightly higher advantage in the end by having one "stupidity" less than White - for White creates a centre of pawns that Black plans to attack, showing it's weakness. This is nom opening for beginners, really. It's considered to be very advanced, and you should really stay away from it for the time being.

You do not have a strategy so far, so you are wrong where you say you want to support it by developing your bishop and knight. A strategy is not just a dream ("maybe attack f2"), but it bases on realities that are perceived while they unfold, it takes them into account and tries to influence their future turnout to support the strategy the more the clearer your idea becomes, it is mutual, and works both directions simulatenously. You have the choice, if you knew chess openings, wether or not you would want to push for centre of flanking games, for closed, strategic positions, or more open, tactic ones, but right now you do not know all that, and thus do not have a strategy any different from "keeping in play". Increase your developement options, keep your position safe, protect your pieces, don't lose one, psotion them so that they can mutually support each other, and must not move again in the early phase, if possible.

e7-e5 blocks white'S advance, opens your king'S bishop to move, bringing you one move closer to casteling, and the knight-move you still can do one move later, if you wish -without him being able to answer that with e5, then. It also givs oyu ypur stand in the important centre. With the knight move, you give up the centre. Bad idea.

However, I made the move I did so as to force him to either support his pawn or move it again, either one of which might restrict the development of his strategy. If he ignores the threat, he loses the pawn and I may be able to fork his queen and kingside rook once I support an attack on f2 with my bishop or queen in my 3rd move.

That is a very vague hope. While you outline part of the idea of the Aljechin defense as described (he needs to derfend his pawn or advance it), the rest of the plan has two faults. first, you want to attack f2 that early, that needs you to move the queen o0ut very early, and if he is aware of it coming, he will develope his figures by chasing your queen arroundk, that means oyu maike many moves and dvelope nothing, while he makes moves adn developes his figures. Second, the early mate on f2 is a famous theme - and only absolute beginners fall for it: don't bet your money on your opponent being so weak.

1. e4/e5 2.Qh5??/Nc6 (to guard the pawn on e5) 3. Bc4/Nf6 4. Qf7#

note that I mark the queen move with two ?, saying it is an exztremely weak move.A strategy that depends on your opponent being stupoid and cooperating, is a weak strategy. A strong strategy is one that you enforce with him being unable to do something against it.

1. f3/e6 2. g4/Qh4#

Another famous chess joke. But remember: Black does not play strong here - but White plays very stupid. Don't mix up these two.

[kranz]

thx for PM Skybird. I got a bit confussed-who plays white? So, my suggestion: 1.e2-e4 if we play white or 1.../c7-c6 for Letum's opening move.

PS: may I know sth about you, Letum? I mean are you a pro-player etc...

[Skybird]

Team Subsim plays black.

I volunteered Letum. :lol: It happened because last match was Letum vs Lance and Lance got a little bit rolled over.

And you are here because you expressed interest in this experiment in the other thread.

Lance said 1.../Nf6, Kranz says c6. And when Kurtz does not show up, you two must make a decision. For example Lance probably doesnot know the long-timed plan behind c6, which also is against all I gave in tips in the othe thread.

Kranz, due to your comment in the other thread I rank you as beginner, too. If I do you unjust, please tell me. Nothing worse than to tell you what to do and what not - and learning afterwards that you are a regular player since 30 years. :)

[kranz]

Ok, so here is the story: as I said before I played in a chess club for about 4 years, about 4-5 people really interested in the game: discussing games, reading books etc. And about 5 kids just having fun moving pieces. But I reached a level that I couldn't lose to anyone and couldn't beat a better player. So I had to decide- devote more time to it going further or just leave it due to lack of time(school). I managed to reach sth like 2nd category lvl which was quite nice among 14-18 y old kids but now is rather "fufu" if you consider how much time I lost. I think that calling me a beginner is quite a good term for the place where I am now. Back to moves: I think we should give Lance more time to show up. And, yes-c7-c6 is a bit out of the general rules you have given.

PS:oh, now I got it! I thought you are going only to play without helping so when I saw your "lecture" I called you a teacher. But it didn't reffer to quality of what you said only to the idea of saying this

[UnderseaLcpl]

Okay I vote for e7-e5.

Btw sky, you got me backwards in that long post. The 3 "reasons" i suggested were for c7-c5. Not for Ng8-f6.


edit: see sky's post below. I said c when I meant e

[Skybird]

Okay I vote for c7-c5.

Btw sky, you got me backwards in that long post. The 3 "reasons" i suggested were for c7-c5. Not for Ng8-f6.
You really need to get those writing errors under control, Lance. ;)

Why c5? What does it do for you? Why is it better than e5, which already does three good things for you? I assume you have snapped up that move, which is the Sicilian defence, in a book. But have you read about the idea behind c5? Can you implement that complex set of ideas?

e7-e5
- blocks the white pwan in the centre
- gives oyu a foothold in the centre yourself (golden rule: always try to hold at least one pawn in the centre)
-opens the diagonal for the king'S bishop, leaving you the choice to develope it beofre the king's knight, if desired,
- brings oyu one move closer to casteling
-denies white the easy occupation of the centre by moving d2-d4.

Whoops, that are not threee but five good reasons.

c7-c5
- denies White the move d2-d4
- opens the diagonal d8-a5 for the Queen (that should not move that early anyway, so that advantage comes too early anyway)

And that in the immidiate turn seems to be all that it is doing. It does not help to develope your figures. It does not improvce your king'S safety perspectives. It does not free any of the bishops. It cannot be covered without moving another pawn, currently. So, why c5?

Gentlemen, you two decide over your next move now, so that Letum can reply.

[kranz]

so I vote for e7-e5, sicilian too offensive.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Glad to have you on the team kranz!:D
Try to keep me from doing anything stupid, will you?

[Skybird]

So be it.

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/6668/image2ba1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Neal must become furious about his bandwidth being wasted like this :D , with plenty of diagrams. I will reduce it, therefore. In the first topic of every page, I will post one diagram, and then constantly REPLACE it with the most actual one. additional diagrams I only give where needed for explanatory purposes.

[Digital_Trucker]

So be it.
Neal must become furious about his bandwidth being wasted like this :D


Pardon the Off Topic and excuse the interruption. I'm no internet wizard, but I believe that the images themselves don't pass through the server, only the links to them do, so there is no bandwidth cost to images except for the viewer and the server hosting the image.

[Letum]

D1-H5
(move2)

[kranz]

Qh5 is :up: move. I know that I'm in the opposite team and your moves are not my business but I thought of some more educational game. So don't get me wrong- you can play like this but....

[UnderseaLcpl]

My instinct in this case says Ng8-f6

Your thoughts, Kranz?

[Skybird]

Your instincts in chess are not yet sharp, Lance. Tell him why Nf6 is considered by you to be a good move and don't leave it to "instincts", and while we are at it - leave the Force out of it as well. Letum is no Sith. In fact he set up a test for people's memory with that move.

So be it.
Neal must become furious about his bandwidth being wasted like this :D


Pardon the Off Topic and excuse the interruption. I'm no internet wizard, but I believe that the images themselves don't pass through the server, only the links to them do, so there is no bandwidth cost to images except for the viewer and the server hosting the image.

Ah. Did not know that, but should have known it if only I would have spent some thinking on it. Thank you!

[UnderseaLcpl]

To fork his queen and pawn, and force him to waste a move?

My only other suggestion would be Qd8-f6, to develop pressure on his king.


I think I'm missing some basic elements of strategy.:oops:

[Skybird]

To fork his queen and pawn, and force him to waste a move?

My only other suggestion would be Qd8-f6, to develop pressure on his king.


I think I'm missing some basic elements of strategy.:oops:

Worse. Ypou miss some important one-move-calculation. At every move he makes, check all his pieces, and with each piece ask yourself "What threat is there"?

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7964/image3cu6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The part with the forking knioght was not bad. Bad bad timing.

[fatty]

Nf6 would challenge his queen but he could respond with Qe5+ and force you to waste your next turn escaping from check.

[UnderseaLcpl]

f7-f6?

[Skybird]

f7-f6?
invalid -> check

there is one immediate threat to loose material. and there is one short-term threat to loose the match in two moves.

What is the latter threat? What is the first move needed by White to checkmate you in the following move?

How to prevent the first threat to lose material?

How to combine both, if possible?

[fatty]

Sky, do you mind if I participate in this thread?

[Skybird]

Nöh... just don't tell the solutions.

[fatty]

Ok. Well, without giving much away, I think I see your mate in two, and if I am correct, one of Lance's suggestions may be quite promising :hmm:

[Skybird]

post #7.

More I really do not give away.

[UnderseaLcpl]

All I can come up with is qd8-f6

It maintains the offensive, it prevents any imediate threat of a checkmate and it protects my pawn.

[fatty]

All I can come up with is qd8-f6

It maintains the offensive, it prevents any imediate threat of a checkmate and it protects my pawn.

I think you're right, but can you use it to answer Skybird's problems?

[Skybird]

Offensive? You are not on the offensive. A single swallow does not make a summer, and a single queen does not make an offensive.

Qf6 does protect your pawn, yes. And it guards against the early mate on f7. One could make that move without immediate consequences, but it is not needed to expose the queen so early. The immediate price is that Qf6 blocks the knight's preferred field f6, which is better positioned on f6 than e7 - because on e7 it blocks the Bishop. The king's fortress gets crowded during developement, and his officers start standing on each other's feet.

Consider these variations, and move them on the board:

2. ... Nc6 3. Bc4 g6 4. Qf3 Qf6 Here, the Queen also moves to f6 - but this time it is with another, even offensive intention, eventually.
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6011/pos2sk3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
You ban his queen away, you have the move Bg7 to develeope the Bishop and free the way for castling, and if he takes your queen, you take back by developing the knight Nf6:, followed by O-O


2... Qe7 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Qd1 d6 6. d3 Bg4 to provoke 7. f3 and weakning the white king'S wing. Black bishop must move, to e6 maybe and next the idea of O-O-O-, eventually, since the king'S side is crowded.
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/6114/pos10il7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Qf6, Qe7 and Nc6 all are possible. But Qf6 I would rate as the most passive variation.

You have seen the motive Qh5 - Bc4 - Qf7: mate. Banning that danger you do, so now you also develope your pieces. That's why I would favour Bc6.

three moves - your choice.

[UnderseaLcpl]

nb8-c6 :up:

[Letum]

Is that the official move?

[UnderseaLcpl]

Is that the official move?

For the sake of my education, let's say yes.

Sky can chastise me later for my folly.

[Letum]

D2-D3

[Skybird]

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1356/image1np3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


d3 covers the pawn on e4 and opens the line for the bishop on c1. Black can develope figures and at the same time force white to waste time, giving Black advantage. Even an early counterattack towards the centre is possible, but I would recommend to not try that but stick with the basic rules that I outlined.


1. In the opening, move each of your pieces only once, if possible. Do not use one and the same figure to start crisscrossing the board. Avoid openings doing that as a beginner. In the opening, and later, try to make moves that pose a direct or indirect threat to the opponent. If he is busy needing to react to you, he cannot claim the initiative.

2. consider that a bishop or a knight close to the sides of the board controls fewer squares than if positioned in the centre. Corners are worst. Centre fields tend to be of primary importance very often.

3. Open with the king’s pawn e2-e4. In principle, it is the most logical first move possible, d4 already is inferior as long as you cannot handle the hidden intricacies behidn that different set of strategies. So be logical, and stick with e4. Keep away from the other systems. You need experience with the basics first, before trying the exotic stuff.

4. Chess has three dimensions: material, space and time. Each quality can be traded for and transformed into one of the others – but that is an art that is part of the experience that separates good players from not so good ones. Nevertheless even as a beginner you should spend some focus on keeping them in mind all the time, but as a starter you stick to keeping your material together: do not tend to waste material for gaining a vague image of winning “room”. This will become important to master – but later on. Avoid openings that play gambits: that is sacrificing a pawn for winning an advantage in time and winning space. It looks chic and makes the audience go "wowh", but that noise is worth nothign for you if you do not know why you sacrifice that pawn.

5. Move only one, at best two pawns in the opening.

6. Develop the knight before the bishop. Develop the Queen last, by tendency develop all light pieces (bishops and knight) before the heavy pieces (Rook and queen). Develop the king’s side first, Queen’s side second. Always try to keep at least one pawn in the centre (d4, e4, d5, e5).

7. Castle early on, preferably to the king’s side, it moves the king further away from the centre line.

8. check carefully this “ideal” textbook opening and see how the principles outlined until here result in both fast development, and gaining covering space in the smallest amount of time possible: (white moves only): e2-e4, Ng1-f3, Bf1-b5, O-O, d2-d4, Nb1-c3, Rf1-e1. In principle, this is the Ruy Lopez opening, and there is a reason why it is the oldest known chess opening, and maybe the best analysed. If you play it like this, Letum probably will know ways to deal with it, so you maybe will have to accept changes. However, the idea behind the sequence, behind each move is that should give you an idea of how to play chess instead of just moving pieces around.

9. Make sure your pieces do not stand around uncovered. Like an army in real life sees it’s different units and branches interacting (“combined arms”), the pieces should provide mutual cover, and support not many different attacks, but one major plan.

10. Do not waste moves.

11. Isolated pawns are weak. Doubled pawns on one line are weak. Weakest are isolated doubled pawns. the one blocks the other, and none of them can support the other.

12. Try to gain and keep control of open lines and diagonals. On open lines, consider doubling your rooks.

13. Watch out for “pins”, that is a figure cannot move without exposing an even more valuable fig-ure or the king behind it to a threat (in case of the king it is forbidden: such pins can be costly, even lethal). Guard yourself against enemy pins, try to fight the enemy by using pins on him.

14. Watch out for “forks”, that is a pawn or figure moves and then is able to attack several enemy pieces at the same time. A pawn advancing and then threatening both a rook and a knight in his new position, is a pain. A knight moving in and greeting your king with a check while threaten-ing you queen or rook at the same time, is real drama.

15. Watch out for “skewers”, that is like a fork, but with the threatened figures standing in line: the one cannot move away without exposing the other. Obviously, pawns cannot do that.

16. Watch out for discovered attacks: his one pieces moves away and poses a thread somewhere else or not – but behind it, another piece is suddenly posing a threat that before was hidden.

17. Always calculate precisely how many attacking pieces and how many defending pieces focus on a disputed square. Try to overload the opponent’s defence of one field, avoid facing getting overloaded yourself.

18. When it is your turn, always ask yourself: “What threats are there?” Check each of his pieces, and where they can move, and can strike. And when I say “each”, I mean “each”. It’s like a pilot checking all his main instruments once every 30 seconds.

19. A pawn is like 1 point in value, a knight is like 3 points, a bishop is like 3.3 points, a rook is like 5 points, a queen is like 9 points. However, the value of rook and bishop may decrease if the position is closed and lines are blocked – in this case, knights often become a bit more valuable.

20. If you have passed pawns, design your plan to push them. If you have combined passed pawns that can support each other, they potentially can become a force – turn brutal in pushing them (but not easyminded!).

21. You wrote in your last mail you believe in the principle of leading from the front. Well, that is the military world, but it is not you and not in chess! Keep your king well-hidden and protected, away from the centre and away from open centre lines. Do not open “breathing holes” and “escape hatches” (h2-h3, h7-h6) until you have to, it weaknes the pwan structure eventually, and makes you losing one move. Once the figure pieces are gone and you are in endgame with pawns only, however it all changes – then the king becomes a warrior and should lead the fight – move him out fast and early, move him to the centre, he is the most powerful around, then. Let him lead the attack, use him to block the enemy king.


Keep it simple for starters, Lance. Stick with the rules. When to ignore them is stuff for advanced lessons. ;) Four moves recommend themselves as playable, but one of them is to be preferred.

[Letum]

:o

My brain bleeds when I try to read chess tactics. I have only ever played by instinct.
I'm liking my odds less and less.

[Skybird]

I have only ever played by instinct.
What - another Jedi around here...?
I'm liking my odds less and less.
Consider it to be a continuation of our discussions by other means. :ping:

[UnderseaLcpl]

I think qd8-f6 would be a good move now. It helps do develop black's ultimate counterattack whilst providing protection for the pawn at e5, whilst simultaneously freeing up the queenside knight for an attack on white's queenside, should the opportunity present itself. It also limits the white queen's mobility.


But perhaps I am too obsessed with gaining the intiative here. Thoughts?

[baggygreen]

If i might interject my newbie thoughts,

I'd be more inclined to move the Bishop from F8-D6. Essentially for the same reasons as USLC pointed out, in that this piece can protect the kings pawn and in doing so free up the queens knight, but moving the bishop has the added advantage that you are a piece closer to castling.

[kranz]

but moving the bishop has the added advantage that you are a piece closer to castling.

yes, but-you block the d pawn from moving. Bishop's best position is not in front of e-d pawns.If I find some time today I will scan an useful diagram showing the main idea of fighting for the center. Also IMO queen move is not good enough. We should consider developing our light pieces before powerful ones. Back to castling-as Skybird said-0-0 is more safer than 0-0-0 BUT are you sure you want to move your king toward white queen on that flank?!

[Skybird]

IBut perhaps I am too obsessed with gaining the intiative here. Thoughts?
Yes. You are too obsessed with the lady. :) Consider rule #6.


Baggy,

the pawn currently is sufficiently protected. If that is your only argument for Bd6, Kranz' argument why not to move that has more substance. Blocking pawn on d7 from moving keeps bishop c8 locked, and prevents pan d7 from supporting the centre. So, you do not gain the initiative - but you prevent it.

Again, hint for a good move: rule #6.

[UnderseaLcpl]

d7-d5

It will ultimately give me more control of the center and my queen has to have an avenue of escape should white move bc1-g5.
It frees up my white bishop and provides more protection to my e5 pawn should white capture the d5 pawn.


I'm not totally sure of this, but I don't see a favorable exchange developing from white bc1-g5.

I'm afraid to say too much more, as it would betray some future plans.


Better? Or worse?

[Letum]

D7-D5?

If you did that I may as well take it with my E4 and force you to waste a move saving your C6.

[Skybird]

What is your plan if White takes the pawn? What's your plan if he does not? What other moves could he do instead of taking d5? No vague reference to strategy, but move calculations, please.

Hint: d5 is a very good move. But why? Prove it with variations. why do you rate d5 as better than for example Nf6 whcih according to rule #6 seems to be recommendable: it deveklopoes a figure, brings you onem move closer to casteling, threatens his queen and force him to move it AGAIN, projects influence into the centre and covers the field e4 and d5.

I will not object if oyu move d5, it is an even better move. but I insist that you have at least an idea, WHY it is such a good move. So, gentlemen, your calculations, please. 2 full moves ahead, please, that is four half moves: two per side.

[kranz]

omg! ok, some pieces of advice. I see that you are obsessed by the Queen. I know-she is the most "powerful" BUT NOT in this part of game. She is blocked and moving pieces only to make here free is a blunder. Good that you see a potential white bishop move which can be dangerous especially giving support for Qh5. Is there any way of reducing this threat in general? Making the move I think of would be against some other rules but it also depends on Letum's move. We probably won't avoid disrupting our pawns structure on that flank-that is normal for the opening made by Letum but you cannot force your opponent to make/not make desired move. If you have any software(Fritz for sure) it would show you that black can take big advantage of white 2nd move so USE IT!

[Skybird]

omg! ok, some pieces of advice. I see that you are obsessed by the Queen. I know-she is the most "powerful" BUT NOT in this part of game. She is blocked and moving pieces only to make here free is a blunder. Good that you see a potential white bishop move which can be dangerous especially giving support for Qh5. Is there any way of reducing this threat in general? Making the move I think of would be against some other rules but it also depends on Letum's move. We probably won't avoid disrupting our pawns structure on that flank-that is normal for the opening made by Letum but you cannot force your opponent to make/not make desired move. If you have any software(Fritz for sure) it would show you that black can take big advantage of white 2nd move so USE IT!
do not use a calculating chess engine, here, Lance. Calculate yourself, else you just copy what the machine is saying - but you do not learn how to calculate yourself. But being able to calculate precisely some moves in advance is bread and butter of chess. Without it you can forget strategy and tactics and openings and theory and all and everything. Nothing replaces precise calculation. It is the very basis - that is why correspondence chess and using several boards, books, notes etc is such a great thing - no better way to learn in chess. Really! Correspondence chess is no second class chess - it is the superior form of chess.

Take your time. If this last three month, at the end of those three months you are still three months older, no matter if you played this match, or not. ;) You miss nothing by playing this.

[Letum]

Actually....on reflection I think the D5 move is better than the move Sky wants to
make (if I guessed it correctly). If it is followed by Sky's move.

*edit* I take that back...it's not "Better" but it might be at least as good.

[UnderseaLcpl]

What is your plan if White takes the pawn? What's your plan if he does not? What other moves could he do instead of taking d5? No vague "strategy", but move calculations, please.Hint: d5 is a very good move. But why? Prove it with variations.


white e4xd5, black qd8xd5, white qh5xf3, black bc8xd6(black gains control of center)

white qh5xh3, black d5xe4, white d3xe4 or h3xe4, bf8xc5 or qd8xf6 (white queen gives ground)

white c2xc4, black d5-c4, white d3xc4, black ng8xf6, white qh5xf3, e2, or d1, black bc8xg4 (white queen boxed in)


white ???, black's brain explodes from trying to analyze in-depth.:D


How's that?

[Skybird]

white e4xd5, black qd8xd5, white qh5xf3, black bc8xd6(black gains control of center)

4. ed5:/Sf6 And the white queen must evade, for example 5.Qg5/h6 6.Qg3/Sd5: Note how White keeps running around with his queen while black developes figures, gains dominance of the centre, and approaches castling!

white qh5xh3, black d5xe4, white d3xe4 or h3xe4, bf8xc5 or qd8xf6 (white queen gives ground)

No...!!! if Qh3, then Bxh3...! Watch out bishop c8. always look at the WHOLE board, not just the focus of the most immediate action! cycle through all his pieces and check every single field they can move!

white c2xc4, black d5-c4, white d3xc4, black ng8xf6, white qh5xf3, e2, or d1, black bc8xg4 (white queen boxed in)
Nice, however, Black needs not to exchange his centre pawn against a wing pawn, so he would move 4 .../de4: 5. de4:/Nf6, White queen must evade, and then Nf6, Bc5, O-O and Bg4 - Black is deployed, white position lags behind by half a century! It becomes apparent now why 2. Qh5 was a very bad move, yes? It exposed the queen too early, where it could not pose a threat, only could promenade, which cost him time without gaining nothing, and made her a target. i am sure Letum played it for educating purposes. While he still needs to develope, you can start to improve your position, form a plan, bring your opieces into striking positions, and hinder his develoepment eventually. You have a time advantage now, that by claiming the initiative for yourself you can try to translate into a space advantage. While he probably needs to trade space for time (to develope, you can figure out how to translate space advantage into a king-attack, or a material advantage.


How's that?
Better than just "instincts". Carry on. Practice leads to routine, routine leads to mastery.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Ok, so d7-d5. Official move.
Still want to take it with your e4 Letum?

do not use a calculating chess engine, here, Lance.

I am using an engine. Skybird1.0 :D

I see that you are obsessed by the Queen. I know she is the most "powerful"

And pretty, too.:p

In all seriousness, I am glad to have everyone's input on this. I know that I focus on the queen too much now, and that I must take more time to consider my moves and plan ahead.

Who knows? I may become a decent player yet!

[baggygreen]

to go slightly ot, now i'm rehooked on it, anyone wanna play this nub in a new thread/game??

[UnderseaLcpl]

to go slightly ot, now i'm rehooked on it, anyone wanna play this nub in a new thread/game??

I'm sure skybird will, but if he doesn't, I'll play you.
Just be prepared for my inevitable fudge-ups from trying to play 3 games at once. I can barely manage 2.

[Skybird]

Who knows? I may become a decent player yet!

"...become a decent player yet, SIR!" :lol: I'm your new drill instructor!

Well, we are working on it, aren't we.


after 3.../d7-d5

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/4595/pos3ez4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Colour code:

A red square means that the piece is under attack and not sufficiently defended, or that it is being attacked by a piece of lesser value. This is usually a pretty serious danger signal and means you must take active measures to avoid losing a piece.

Yellow means that the piece is under attack, but it is just sufficiently defended. You must be careful about removing any defending piece.

Green means the piece has enemy contact but is well defended. Usually it is okay to remove a defending piece.

[Skybird]

Baggy, why don't you send Fatty a mail, it is possible he would accept.
You are also free to join in this thread on any side.

[fatty]

Hi Baggy, I will play if you are still interested. If so, go ahead and start a thread and make your move.

[Letum]

B1-C3

[Skybird]

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5660/pos10qi5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

OK, Black - what are White's possible moves? what threats there are? what threats can you eventually set up yourself? what were your considerations from your last ove? Are they still valid, or do they need to be altered? How to combine immediarte needs with longterm goals? Your pruority must be to seal any holes, and continue to develope your pieces while not letting your time advantage slipping away - if possible.

[UnderseaLcpl]

ng8-f6, pending

reasons,

black ng8-f6, if white Qh5-f3, black bc8-g4 or

white qh5-e2, black nc6-e2, or


or white qh5-d1, black d5-e4, white d3-e4, black nc6-d4

Thoughts?

[kranz]

bc8-g4 loses bishop-that's for now

[UnderseaLcpl]

bc8-g4 loses bishop-that's for now

All those moves are sequenced and assume that my knight is at f6. With that being assumed, my bishop would be covered at g4. Unless you're farther ahead than me and see his inevitable demise from something else.

[Skybird]

Nice, but have you really adressed all possible moves by White after your move Nf6...? ;)

White queen to move:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7427/image1ya6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[UnderseaLcpl]

Nice, but have you really adressed all possible moves by White after your move Nf6...? ;)


Crap. I missed those:damn: , but it's ok if he moves to either of those squares. If white qh5-h4 then black nc6-d4.


I'm a little afraid of white qh5-f5, but I don't see a favourable exchange developing for him under those circumstances. His queen remains effectively "boxed" and I have yet another piece on the battleground.

I can't look far enough ahead to consider all the possibilites, but I think this is a good move.

ng8-f6 is the official move.

[Skybird]

You are afraid of Qf5...??? :rotfl: Name just one reason! ;)

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/1559/image2rl6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

;) You see it - or must I use more brutal means?!



Nf6 was the best move possible indeed. I just wanted you to consider not just some but all possible options for white. The one you ignore usually is the one that will cost you the match.

[UnderseaLcpl]

I meant qh5-g5. You know how I am. All these alphanumeric notations get me confused.

Thanks for making me slow down and look at the big picture, though.

[porphy]

Hello fellow chess players!
I will just add a few thoughts on the current position if you don't mind. :)
Crap. I missed those:damn: , but it's ok if he moves to either of those squares. If white qh5-h4 then black nc6-d4.
UnderseaLcpl is on the right track with chasing the queen which has arrived a bit early to the party. But the white queen still have a decent square at g5, and later at g3, which also stops black from moving his Bishop at f8 at the moment. (unless black want to try some fancy poisioned pawn stuff, but that is for later drill lesson with sergant Sky :cool:)

Also the idea with the Nc6-d4 is good as white really has a weakness on his c2 square (threatening check and losing a rook and or the castling). Unfortunately this doesn't work just yet after Qh4-g5. If the Knight moves, the pawn at e5 will be the queens prey with check! (black moved the defending piece).

Nice to see chess on the forum again!

Cheers Porphy

[Letum]

H5-H4

[UnderseaLcpl]

nc6-d4, official move

[Skybird]

Hi Porphy, you're still alive?

[UnderseaLcpl]

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp14/lcplmaryott/shining_twins.jpg


Hello Porphy. Come and play wth us. Come and play with us, Porphy. Forever..and ever..and ever....:D

[porphy]

Yes, live and kicking, preparing for my next climb. Had a break from posting in the forum for quite a while. But no one really leaves Subsim, as we all know. :cool:

cheers porphy

[Skybird]

Yes, live and kicking, preparing for my next climb. Had a break from posting in the forum for quite a while. But no one really leaves Subsim, as we all know. :cool:

Whom you are telling that... :lol:

Gentlemen, porphy is a survivor of the first chessmatches we had at subsim, in spring 2006.

[Letum]

E1-D1

[Skybird]

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/2738/pos2om5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

White can no longer castle, his king is stuck in the open centre of the 1st line. That is a weakness that should be exploited, if possible.

There are two moves now that are better than all other possible moves. It is worth to remember a motive that is described in rule #16. Try to find it without computer assistance, Lance. Both moves can already decide the match, White needs to play precise and flawless now, or he already will fall off the cliff.

Black has significant advantage, and the initiative. he dominates the centre, is leading in developement (time dimension), has more room (space dimension), both of which should allow Black to turn it into a lead in the material dimension as well, and both the white king and the white queen are object of covered threats. Depending on White's moves, a decisive attack combination against the king itself cannot be ruled out.

[UnderseaLcpl]

d5-e4

[Letum]

C3-E4



eek...d3-e4 and I would have lost my queen.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Try to find it without computer assistance, Lance.



Even if I had a chess program with an engine in it I wouldn't use it. That would be cheating myself, esp. in this thread.

I think I'm thinking along the right lines here, though. I did use arena to manually map a few moves, does that count as computer assistance?

[UnderseaLcpl]

C3-E4



eek...d3-e4 and I would have lost my queen.

You still lose her.:D

nf6-e4+

[Letum]

I do?
How?

H4-E4

that wonderful center ground control you had is slipping away. ;)


if you wish to go back a few moves for training purposes I am happy to do that

[UnderseaLcpl]

oops. As soon as I act in haste i mess it up. oh well.

[Letum]

Shall we go back to:
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/2738/pos2om5.jpg

So you can think things over again and consult the team? :up:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Let's give other people a few hours to weigh in, if they care. I have to go to the store and then work soon, anyway.

A match with a few wrenches thrown in the works could be interesting, too. And up to this point, the development for black has been quite good.

Obviously I still value the queen too much. I thought I had yours dead-to-rights and it cost me.:doh:

[kranz]

Frankly speaking I do care but you are not helping me to follow. PLEASE number your moves guys, if you kill-add "x" and was nf6-e4+ really a check?If yes-I f.. sth in moving the pieces. To which I should go back? I would take on d8 after he took my knight, just to move his king-but I can be wrong since it's a bit messed

[Skybird]

C3-E4



eek...d3-e4 and I would have lost my queen.

You still lose her.:D

nf6-e4+

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2359/acf51bbco6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Your name is on top of the list in my little green book now, Mister! This is what happens if little kids start fooling around without asking big daddy first. Maybe you think I'm preaching the sermon for everybody except just for you, but you will eat that truth I'm preaching with an extra-large XXL-spoon before we are finished here, even if it will be the last thing you'll eat in your life on this planet earth, dig it!

[kranz]

whatever it means Sky, you're right!

[Letum]

Sky, perhaps you could set out the current state of the game as you see fit and
put us all back on the tracks.

[Skybird]

PLEASE number your moves guys, if you kill-add "x" and was nf6-e4+ really a check?If yes-I f.. sth in moving the pieces. To which I should go back? I would take on d8 after he took my knight, just to move his king-but I can be wrong since it's a bit messed
Indeed. number your moves. Use full notation to avoid mistakes and communication failures. figures are m arked by capital letters. simpole moves from-to are using a "-". A move taking a piece uses an "x" instead. chess is indicated by a "+" after the move. En passant is indicated by adding e.p. at the end. a move by black is indicated by putting "..." or ".../" before the move, indicating that white already had moved.

1. d2-d4
7.../Sf6xe4
19. Qf1-f8+
11.../d5xc4 e.p.

No matter if numerical, digital or figurine code, unregulated correspondence chess ALWAYS uses notation that includes both original and target square. Official correspondenc chess is even limited to using the numerical notation exclusively. Short notation is only and exclusively used in literature and writing match protocols during a running table match.

This is well-proven standard world-wide, guys. Don't argue with it, it's useless.

[Letum]

So what is the official state of play now?
How does the board look, what is the move number, whose move is it?

[Skybird]

Sky, perhaps you could set out the current state of the game as you see fit and
put us all back on the tracks.
Assuming you guys have consensus on Letum's suggestion to take the moves back, status is like this:

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/4269/image1uq5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


It helps to see it on a real board. If you have one, use it. Also, turn the board, to see how it looks from the other's side

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/3704/image2yl3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1782/image4eh0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[UnderseaLcpl]

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2359/acf51bbco6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Your name is on top of the list in my little green book now, Mister! This is what happens if little kids start fooling around without asking big daddy first. Maybe you think I'm preaching the sermon for everybody except just for you, but you will eat that truth I'm preaching with an extra-large XXL-spoon before we are finished here, even if it will be the last thing you'll eat in your life on this planet earth, dig it!

AYE AYE, SIR! .......IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN, SIR!...... YES, SIR!.....I WILL RESOVE THE SITUATION IMMEDIATELY SIR!:D

I'm for allowing sky to arbitrate this as he sees fit. His tutelage is important to me, so I will abide by whatever decision he thinks would be the most beneficial, given the lack of votes on this issue thus far.

[Skybird]

Proceed from 6. Kd1 on.

[UnderseaLcpl]

white 6: Kd1-d2

black 6: Nfx6-e4 pending.


Must remind myself to slow down and I will notice these things.:sunny:

[Skybird]

Nfx6-e4 .


Knight Foxtrott takes Six to Echo Four...??? What kind of move should that be...???

Nf6xe4 is something you will not become happy with. Why?

[kranz]

The answer is in one of my above posts

[UnderseaLcpl]

Nfx6-e4 .


Knight Foxtrott takes Six to Echo Four...??? What kind of move should that be...???

Nf6xe4 is something you will not become happy with. Why?


Move I posted by accident. I'm still thinking about it.

My little sister must have hit the enter key when I left for work. She loves buttons:D

It was supposed to be notes for my thoguht process.

[Skybird]

The black queen and the white King stand in one line. Pieces on that line eventually can be removed, creating threats that way.

the white queen stands unguarded, and on the same diagonal like the black queen. Black can increase his pressure on that diagonal and again create threats.

both situations invite for being exploited through motives mentioned in rule #16 "Covered attacks". that motive should drive you.

[RickC Sniper]

I am only a beginner\intermediate chess player, and this is a great thread. I am learning a lot.

I do have a question. Is there a defined point where the opening becomes mid-game and then also to end-game or are these gray areas?

In the game above for black, if I may, I like Bf8-e7. d5xe4 can soon be played. White must be wary of moving it's D pawn opening that file.
It adds pressure on White's queen (the knight at f6 can now move) and allows black to castle soon, getting a rook in play.

White would have little choice but to move his queen to a safer spot and lose time.

[Skybird]

Although books on openings sooner or later come to an end in describing a variation, nevertheless I would consider the border between different phases of the game being fluent. Many openings are - in theory - so long that they reach far into midgame. Preparation to gain a promising endgame begins in midgame - sometimes even the opening's idea already is about favourable constellations (pawn phalanxes or majorities on one wing) in the endgame.

Profi players study all this a lot, so even if they do not calculate the variation tree let's say 20 moves in advance :D , they nevertheless eventually already look into the mid and endgame when choosing their opening by considering the basic idea and typical position types resulting from it.

Profi players also calculate it differently than we usual mortals do. They tend to recognise constellation patterns of figures, not single figures themselves. Simple example, where you see and calculate with pawn f2, g2, h2, Rook f1 and King g1, they take the position as a whole and use that description of a short casteling as the basic unit to calculate with. The same they do fopr example with pawn phalanxes and typical positional patterns resulting from a given opening. Pattern recognition is very important in professional chess, and you cannot make it to that level of playing strength without having accumulated those many thousands of hours of playing that result in your mind seeing patterns instead of pieces and single moves. It is illusory to assume you could make it to that level by calculation alone, like you also do not become a good pianist by playing technique alone, but missing the heart to interpret the music and wgive it soul and emotion. Sould and emotion in chess is pattern recognition, so to speak.

Obviously it is also important in chess programming. Pattern recognition, and mathematical criterions by which to judge a given position or pattern are the bread and butter of it.

Your move is very good, btw. It develoeps a figure. It brings Black closer to casteling. It poses a covered thread to the queen. It supports further attack in the centre. It is more than White can handle with just two hands.

Could you give Lance a full possible variation? Ypou already outlined a plan: to play de4: any time soon. What replies are possible for White, and what threads? Which one do you expect? Could you counter White's attempt to hinder your plan?

[RickC Sniper]

6........Bf8-e7
7. Qg3 ..attacking 2 undefended pawns at f7 and e5
7........ /O-O
8 Qxe5 d5xe4
9 Nc3xe4 bf5? or Qxe4 Rf8-e8

At this point I feel I've lost some momentum. I expect white to want to develop his bishop at c1 so he can move his king off the e or d files.

I have no chessboard set up and I failed to get arena to work so the board is difficult for me to "see" after this many moves.
Does arena require a chess engine to just set up 2 human players and make moves?

[UnderseaLcpl]

In the game above for black, if I may, I like Bf8-e7. d5xe4 can soon be played. White must be wary of moving it's D pawn opening that file.
It adds pressure on White's queen (the knight at f6 can now move) and allows black to castle soon, getting a rook in play.


Hmmmm.....

After much consideration I have decided that I like that move
In this way, black can further the goal of eliminating white's bastion in the center, and the white queen remains at bay. White's knight at g1 vexxes me, however. Should I castle and move my f6 knight to press an attack on the center, he is in a position to support an attack by the white queen on h7. Potentially only 3 moves away in fact, after white moves his queen to h5 to evade my bishop. Admittedly a vague fear, but my main concern is that such a ploy by white will interfere with black's advance and possibly reverse the situation. As such, I'm not liking the idea of castling at the moment, but have not ruled it out.

Other than that, good show Rick! Thanks to the suggestions of people like you (and sky, of course) I get a little closer each day to my ultimate goal of being able to start the thread : UnderseaLcpl vs. Skybird.

Bf8-e7, then?

[Skybird]

I get a little closer each day to my ultimate goal of being able to start the thread : UnderseaLcpl vs. Skybird.


http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/707/fullmetaljacketermeyqz0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

"What...???"

[Letum]

Move 7

Qh4-g3

[Skybird]

Now, gentlemen, things get exciting. A tactical exchange is inevitable, and it could directly lead into a decisive frontal attack, maybe.

Precise calculation of all possible variations now is of paramount importance. Take all time that you need, but do it thoroughly.

Keep written notes of your variations, if you must. keep them included in the record, if you use Arenea and the software allows that (I assume that, since it is a standard function nowadays). When I play it is not rare that I have 6 or 7 variations included in my record-keeping - and that is for every single move, or every knot of the variation tree.

Chess is the ideal game for octopussies and spiders: the more eyes and arms you have, the better. :cool:

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/5839/image1rc4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[RickC Sniper]

Please disregard my suggested move
9......../Qe5xe4 That move is a blunder that I can see now that I have a board set up


Potentially only 3 moves away in fact, after white moves his queen to h5 to evade my bishop.
His Queen could not have moved to h5 because ....../Nf6xf5

Remember Sky pointing out that your Queen stares down the same file as his King? His King cannot castle away to safety. Cracking open that D file should be priority.

Possible moves: after 7. Qh4-g3
pawn d5xe4 ....begins to open the d file
Be7-b4 .....pinning his knight at c3 so that after d5xe4 he cannot retaliate with Nc3xe4.
O-O .....beware of his possible response ..../Bc1-h6 !!
Nf6xe4 ....attacking his queen. Then if Nc3xe4 ..d5xe4 and you are very close to an open d file.
Bc8-g4 ....putting him in check

But...which move should be played first?

edited after repositioning white's king.

[RickC Sniper]

oops, I have his king at d2.

My bad.

[Skybird]

Hope you got Arena up and running, Rick. Lance also uses it since some days, he probably could help you if you still have problems.

[RickC Sniper]

I purchased chessmaster 9000 for $9.95.

It is a good learning tool, and has a great kids section for my grandkids.

It will do nicely. :)

This is always the point in the game where I struggle and often manage to blunder away my advantages. I think I just am not able to see ahead quite far enough.

[Skybird]

I purchased chessmaster 9000 for $9.95.

It is a good learning tool, and has a great kids section for my grandkids.

It will do nicely. :)

Very nice, but try here without the running engine calculating your moves. This match is not so much about winning and playing, but education. It makes little sense if you guys just follow what the machine is telling you.

eventually we could have a new thread with an engine match.

[RickC Sniper]

A computer match does not interest me. I do not see the point of it.
My board is set up as human vs human and will stay that way for this game. My errors will surely convince you. :ping:

[Skybird]

A computer match does not interest me. I do not see the point of it.

the point is the same as in watching two superior players play, or study a match from a book: learning from it. If you are advanced a player, it also has iots pleasure to compare different styles of two engines, and analysing parallel to them and the evaluation they give.

Is chessmaster an GUI that aloows other engines to run under it as well than just Chessmaster, or is it just that one egnine and GUI that cannot load other engines?

[RickC Sniper]

I do not think it can use other engines but I am not sure. I got it last night (download) and am not very familiar with it yet.

Sky, does your program let you have the board coordinates on? They help me, and I think Lance would benefit.

Did we lose Lance's team? No one has commented lately.

....the board with coordinates but I prefer your board with the highlighted squares.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/RickC/chessboard.jpg

[Skybird]

Sky, does your program let you have the board coordinates on? They help me, and I think Lance would benefit.

Roger.

[UnderseaLcpl]

I'm still here. It takes me a while to plan these things out, especially with drill instructor sky looking over my shoulder:D

I'm considering nf6-h5 at the moment.....

[RickC Sniper]

OK, why?

His queen can capture your pawn at E5 and from there it attacks that knight.
I think that is a wasted move and gets you away from the center.


Make a move on your board, then look very hard at it from his side, to see if he has a good counter to it.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Yeah I know, I was working out all the variations of an exchange to see if black could come out on top. It doesn't look too good.

I keep coming back to d5xe4 as well, but I don't think the time is right for that.

Maybe Qd8-d5? I don't know, what do you think?

edit- oops I mean d6.

[Letum]

nf6-h5 and I am guaranteed to get one knight .

[RickC Sniper]

Yeah I know, I was working out all the variations of an exchange to see if black could come out on top. It doesn't look too good.

I keep coming back to d5xe4 as well, but I don't think the time is right for that.

Maybe Qd8-d5? I don't know, what do you think?

edit- oops I mean d6.

Qd8-d6 ? Lets look at that. Are you liking that move to protect the pawn at e5 that his queen stares at? It might have some merit.
Looking at it though, it completely boxes in your Bishop at e7, weakening it. He has a response of f2-f4 adding an attacking piece so the e5 pawn is still vulnerable.

My thinking is time here is important because white can catch up if we don't grab the initiative.

My vote is 7......./d5xe4
White can respond in many ways.
if
8. Nc3xe4 then Nf6xe4 9. Qxe5 OR g7. If Qxg7 then Rh8-g8. Black's pawns are fragmented but Rook is strong there especially after castelling queenside.
8 f2-f3 then 9. e4xd3 Bxd3
8 Qg3xe5 then 9. e4xd3 Bxd3

Sky, I told you this is where I struggle. lol.
I still like black after any of those.

[Skybird]

Yeah I know, I was working out all the variations of an exchange to see if black could come out on top. It doesn't look too good.

Nonsens, your position is superior. You can still castle. You have the centre. the White king i vulnerable, and he can't castle. He lack sin developement, while oyu are ahead. You probably win material.

I keep coming back to d5xe4 as well, but I don't think the time is right for that.

Stop that instinct feeling thing, you still do not have instincts in chess. Calculate it as good as you can, and trust in the results.

Maybe Qd8-d6? I don't know, what do you think?

Look at g7. That move of yours is a loser.

I again point your attention towards oyur Queen on d8 and his king on d1. The queen already has the king in check, if only the pieces on the d line would not block the firing line. If you could manage to remove those pawns on d5 and d3, only the knight on d4 is left. If that knight moves, he exposes his king to your queen, which is "covered check" ("Abzugsschach", somebody correct me if I use the wrong English term, I am not familiar with the English chess vocabulary). So, if that knight moves into a position from where he could reach an important square or in the next move can take a piece of higher value, while he needs to move his king and cannot react to that threat set up by the knoight, it brings you advantage.

Keep this motive in mind, you'll meet it often in chess. In this case it may not be your strategy, the long vision and great plan that is, but it is a tactical motive that you should focus on for the imminent future, and try to exploit.


Question to Rick,

f3 is a strong and unexpected move for somebody describing himself a beginner. You sure you described yourself correctly? What are your experiences, and chess background? I just wnt to know with whom I am dealing in here. Letum is sort of an unknown to me, and so are you. just want to avoid mentioning stuff that people already know.

[porphy]

Hi people!

Sky, I told you this is where I struggle. lol.
I still like black after any of those.
I feel a bit the same as Rick after looking at some of the variations you give. It sure looks like black is better, but white isn't really under that hard pressure any more. Of course the King is still in the center, but how should black exploit this in the best way? Letum is just waiting to get the chance to take a swing back at black :cool:

One idea for black is to keep going after the queen. After all it's a theme of this game :D. My idea for black is 7. Nf6 - g4... (which threatens to be followed by Bh4) This move keeps up the pressure on the queen. Blocks the potential threat at g7, and at the same time guards the pawn at e5. And Black can still go for the d5xe4 after this manouvre. Black can soon castle kingside and put more fuel on the fire, perhaps with pawn to f5 in one or two moves, with a rook gunning down the f-file.

This way promises good tactical chances for black, and hairy calculations for both sides. :hmm: Thoughts about this approach?

[Skybird]

One idea for black is to keep going after the queen.

Yes, that means exploiting the advanatge in the dimension of time. One makes developement moves and improvements to one's positions , while the opponent is forced to move with the same oiece time and again. A constant generation of threats keeps him busy and hinders him from gaining the initiative.


My idea for black is 7. Nf6 - g4... (which threatens to be followed by Bh4)

That is a very good first move for the reasons you gave, but the second simply costs you the bishop. The red line between genius and suicide is a very small one :D


After 7. Qg3

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/2247/pos3yj2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[porphy]

That is a very good first move for the reasons you gave, but the second simply costs you the bishop. The red line between genius and suicide is a very small one :D
Very true indeed, but I fail to see why Bh4 costs me the bishop? It is guarded by my queen, at least on my board ;)



Of course, white could sacrifice his queen in exchange of two lighter pieces, but I think that would be all good for black in the long run.

Cheers Porphy

[Skybird]

That is a very good first move for the reasons you gave, but the second simply costs you the bishop. The red line between genius and suicide is a very small one :D

Very true indeed, but I fail to see why Bh4 costs me the bishop? It is guarded by my queen, at least on my board ;)

Of course, white could sacrifice his queen in exchange of two lighter pieces, but I think that would be all good for black in the long run.

Cheers Porphy
:oops: My fault. Forget it.

Nevertheless Bc8-h4 could be easily prevented by h2-h4.

[porphy]

Nevertheless Bc8-h4 could be easily prevented by h2-h4.
Also true, but the continuation could look something like this.

7... Nf6 - g4
8. h2 - h4, d5xe4
9. Nc3xe4, f7 - f5
10. f2 - f3, f5xe4
11. f3xg4, 0-0
12. Bf1 -e2, e4xd3

Now, what do we think of the resulting position?

The downside of this way of playing tactical moves, I think, is that it's very taxing calculating everything. (I have not done all variations. Especially if you are a beginner at chess, one will certainly stumble somewhere. On positive side, white has to do the calculations as well...;) )

But I still think this way forward is good for black and could be a way to eventually strip the king of his defenses. (which is the main idea, as you say, as he is stuck in the center). Basically the tactical attack on the queen is a way to get the center rolling in favor of black. I certainly don't claim this to be a certain outcome by any means, but it keeps initiative on the black side as he pursues the main strategical goals of the position is this game.) Might be easier ways to do that though, suggestions welcome!

cheers Porphy

[Skybird]

Nevertheless Bc8-h4 could be easily prevented by h2-h4.
Also true, but the continuation could look something like this.

7... Nf6 - g4
8. h2 - h4, d5xe4
9. Nc3xe4, f7 - f5
10. f2 - f3, f5xe4
11. f3xg4, 0-0
12. Bf1 -e2, e4xd3


I give the main match and the actual status on the wooden board, and all variations on the blue board from now on, so that players do not mix it up.

After Porphy's variation:
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/5140/pos4gv1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

However, compare to this:

8. h2-h4/d5xe4
9. f2-f3/f7-f5
10. Qg3-e1/e4xd3
11.c2xd3


http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/6053/pos5fw6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I think the second variation gives white a slightly better defence.

Let's leave it here since we have lost Lance behind. I fear this is a bit too much for him.

[Skybird]

I'm getting trouble with more and more websites since two hours. I wonder if Ike has something to do with it.

[porphy]

Thanks Sky, good idea with different color for the boards with variations.

I don't want to totally derail the main game, just trying to show one way onwards, which looks a bit interesting. And for the guys you train, it is always good to just play through a variation on the board. It all adds up to collecting chess experience. But we have to stop analyzing at some point, and make a educated decision from what we got. All us involved will still learn from whatever route the game takes. :up:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Let's leave it here since we have lost Lance behind. I fear this is a bit too much for him.

No worries. I am keeping up with you (mostly:D )

I like porphy's move of Nf6-g4. I considered it before, but it got lost in the pages of notes I have scribbled down.

I'm beginning to see, though.

Nf6-g4, official move.

And I bet I can avoid losing the knight at d4 as well:D

[Letum]

move 8

h2-h4

[UnderseaLcpl]

White 8. h2-h4

Black 8. g7-g5

[Skybird]

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7971/gunnerysergeanthartmanplg6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

"You'll regret that move...!"


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3113/image3vq4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

No patience, eh? Then you are wrong in this game. You completely shifted the balance with just one premature move, and made the fortune of war changing sides.

[porphy]

As the drill sergeant said. Perhaps not the best way to continue no...., but what made you decide for g7-g5 UnderseaLcpl? What pro and cons did you find with this move?

(you said you where afraid to lose the Knight at d4 at some point, I think the knight at g4 could be in some real trouble soon :D )

cheers Porphy

[UnderseaLcpl]

Maybe white e4xd5, Black c7-c6
Or white h4xg5, black e7xg5 white Bc1xg5, black Qd8xg5
Or white Bc1xg5 Black Be7xg5, white h4xg5 black Qd8xg5
Or white Bc1-e3, black g5xh4, white Qg3-h3, Black Ng4xf2
Or white Bc1-e3, black g5xh4, white, whatever, the queen dies.
Or white Bf1-d2, black g5xh4, same thing, basically.

I'm not sure, I'm probably missing something.


I chose g7-g5 because I don't see an exchange going in white's favor. And I still don't see how I would lose that knight at g4.

Maybe white Nc3xd5, black Be7-d6?

Oh crap. If this is that en passant thing I'm going to shoot myself:roll:

[porphy]

I chose g7-g5 because I don't see an exchange going in white's favor. And I still don't see how I would lose that knight at g4.

Or white h4xg5, black e7xg5 white Bc1xg5, black Qd8xg5
After this variation comes white f2-f3 threatening the Knight at g4 and the queen behind it is unguarded, I thought.... but black can play Ng4 -e3+ and it is the white queen that is going to the otherworld! Missed that one in the first instance! Correct, you don't lose the knight. But it can certainly be a target very soon, as its life hangs mostly on a the tactical escape.

In the above variation the real threat of counter play for white is perhaps that the black queen now leaves c7 unprotected. White can immediately play Nc3xd5 and black drops a pawn and has to defend against the threat at c7, possibly losing his castling.

cheers Porphy

[Skybird]

Or white h4xg5, black e7xg5 white Bc1xg5, black Qd8xg5
I chose g7-g5 because I don't see an exchange going in white's favor.
You did not see white's next move: Nc3xd5, and he has one pawn more, threatening Sd5xc7+ next. Gone is your king's security.
Maybe white Nc3xd5, black Be7-d6?
White moving Sd5: is wishful thinking, because he would commit immediate Harakiri by that:

9. Nc3xd5?? g5xh4!!

Now check where the Queen can go, she has only one free square.

10: Qg3-h3 and a lethal fork by Black with Ng4xf2+!!!

and murder on the dancefloor in the next move. White is done.

[porphy]

I don't think Letum would have let black have the pleasure to take the pawn on h4. Both of you have pointed to the obvious dangers there. Black better prepare a riposte in the long run for white playing h4xg5 (or something else?!), or the game will equalize a bit. Still some nice tactical complications to handle though :)

cheers porphy

[RickC Sniper]

No worries. I am keeping up with you (mostly:D )


I am glad you kept up with all that because I sure got dizzy looking at those two guys analyze those two lines of play. I simply cannot analyze that far ahead.

Question to Rick,

f3 is a strong and unexpected move for somebody describing himself a beginner. You sure you described yourself correctly? What are your experiences, and chess background? I just wnt to know with whom I am dealing in here. Letum is sort of an unknown to me, and so are you. just want to avoid mentioning stuff that people already know.

I described myself as a beginner\intermediate. I have never played chess in a club, and and have only played chess with people casually....with friends. Have never had a teacher, but did have a very early version of Chessmaster which had great tutorials. (Windows 95 I think was the os at the time.)
In the early 90's I frequented a chess website where I found many Russian and Brazilian, as well as American players. It does not exist anymore, but it had an .ru extension so it was based in Russia. I watched game after game after game, and then started playing against some of the weaker players there, but there were only a few. After some time there was accusations of cheating among the elite players so the strong players who stayed moved to speed chess. One cannot use a chess program quick enough when your entire game is one or 2 minutes time limit. I watched them play, then watched the archived games over and over and over. I have played only very rarely now for ten years or more. I learned the correct terms and some common openings from the Chessmaster program.
During that period (3 or 4 years) I played 5 or 6 games a day with a 30 minute time setting.


I cited several possible moves for white and f2-f3 was the one I least expected from white. I did not hold it in as high regard as you seem to.
My thought process was e4xd3 Bf1xe3 then black could perhaps move Bc8-g4 then Qd8-d7 and castle queenside. His move f2-f3 hindered that line so I included it as a possible play.
After 7. d5xe4 I expected white to go pawn hunting with his queen because that's what I would have done. I never even considered 7..... Ng4 which got played here.

@Letum.......what would your response to 7. d5xe4 have been?

[UnderseaLcpl]

If white Nc3xd5, black g5xh4

White must respond with Qg3-h3 ???
or Rh1-h4??
or Nd5xc7, which black will answer with Ke8-f8

once again, white must either rh1-h4??
or Qg3-h3???

Or something equally futile?

I'm getting that queen, one way or another....
Not worried a bit about Nc3xd5:D

Maybe white will play h4-h5. black's response will probably be d5xe4. White will probably respond with Nc3xe4, black will play f7-f5. Now white is either going to lose the knight to f5xe4 or lose his queen by not playing Qg3-h3.

[Skybird]

If only the word "if" would not exist.

nice variations, but it depends on a cooperating opponent making the weak move you hope for.

Better start thinking about White's next move being strong: hg5: ;)

g5 was a weak move because it cripples your castling positions, wastes time, gives awqay the initiative, and now this is difficult to explain in written form: it's just that i do not like the general psotion structure resulting from it, I forsee it into the endgame and possible structures there, and do not like it. You had a list of advantages, and gave them away for free: hg5: shows that very clearly. If Letum plays correctly, he has you on the defence.

[Letum]

@Letum.......what would your response to 7. d5xe4 have been?

c3xe4

[porphy]

nice variations, but it depends on a cooperating opponent making the weak move you hope for

I remember this psychological trap from when I started to play chess. I would be feeling warm and excited because of all the horrible things my opponent would suffer, if he made this or that move. As it turned out, my opponent very seldom made these moves. Instead I would often loose the game, as I had chosen to do moves that looked really good, if the opponent made a bad move himself. I then tried to lick my wounds by showing on the board all the nice things (combinations, sacrifices etc.) that could have happened if...
Of course one has to calculate with these moves as well, but the trick is to not let them drop your guard down. If my opponent have just one move to avoid difficulties, that is the move I should concentrate on. I still find it hard these days, I tend to get much too involved in my own attacking plans...:yep:

One of the best ways to improve as a player, is to get rid of this psychological habit to feel comfort from the possibility of the opponent doing worse, than the best move you yourself can calculate, from his position. In a way, you play yourself in chess! :huh:

cheers porphy

[Skybird]

@Letum.......what would your response to 7. d5xe4 have been?

c3xe4

Lucky it did not went that way! You would have lost material, no matter what you would have done.



Lance,

this is the motive of covered threats, in this case covered check. See this variation in reply to Letum'S move:

7. Qg3 dxe4 8. Nxe4 Nxe4 9. dxe4 Nb3+ (uncovers the threat from the Queen!) 10. Bd3 Nxa1

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/3307/pos6yq4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And what if White would not have taken back in the ninth move, de4:? Several tactical patterns being used that you must keep in mind. Take your time to really go through these variations, there is a lot to learn from both, especially the latter.

7. Qg3 dxe4 8. Nxe4 Nxe4 9. Qe3 f5 10. f3 Nxc2 11. Kxc2 Bc5 12. Qe1 Nf2 13. d4 Bxd4 14. Nh3 Nxh1

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/1349/pos7ol9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Skybird]

In a way, you play yourself in chess! :huh:

Show me how you play - and I tell you who you are! :lol:

[UnderseaLcpl]

my response to h4xg5 will probably be Ng4xf2+
At least I can buy a little time and get a pawn from his inevtiable demise in this way.
White will likely respond with Qg3xf2, black probably d5xe4

after that I'm not sure.

[Skybird]

my response to h4xg5 will probably be Ng4xf2+
At least I can buy a little time and get a pawn from his inevtiable demise in this way.
White will likely respond with Qg3xf2, black probably d5xe4

after that I'm not sure.
???

What should that be good for...? White says thank-you and leads by a knight!? And what you mean by "his inevitable demise"? White stands better!

There is no remedy for donating pieces in chess. Free gifts should always come at the price of being poisened.

[porphy]

my response to h4xg5 will probably be Ng4xf2+
So you sacrifice the Knight for a pawn? Is there anything more to gain from the sacrifice? If not, it looks to me white will just capture the Knight with the queen as you suggest, and say "thank you".

Is it not better to give up castling and one pawn after the variation you considered earlier.
9. White h4xg5, black e7xg5
10. white Bc1xg5, black Qd8xg5
11. white Nc3xd5, black Kd8

edit: you might even consider a bold kingside castling. After 11. white Nc3xd5 black plays 0-0, hoping white will waste tempos taking material at c7 and perhaps even the rook at a8 with his Knight, as you in the meantime look for ways to stab the king or win back material. I don't say this is the best plan, it looks quite desperate, but you have to come up with something better than retiring the black knight with Ng4xf2+


cheers Porphy

[porphy]

Show me how you play - and I tell you who you are! :lol:

Sounds tempting, a kind of chess psychoanalysis!? What about sweeping the pieces of the board when loosing? :p

Cheers Porphy

[Skybird]

Show me how you play - and I tell you who you are! :lol:

Sounds tempting, a kind of chess psychoanalysis!? What about sweeping the pieces of the board when loosing? :p

Cheers Porphy
Former world champion Aljechin : hitting the board over his opponent's head after the poor guy made a bad move. Aljechin accused him of having ruined the beauty of this piece of arts he was creating.

Yes, it's the same Aljechin after whom the Aljechin defence has been named.

[RickC Sniper]

@Letum.......what would your response to 7. d5xe4 have been?

c3xe4

Thanks for responding.

I think it is your move. h4xg5?

[Letum]

Wah? It's my move now?

[Skybird]

Wah? It's my move now?
Yes indeed. See posting #131.

Last move was 8. h2-h4 / g7-g5.

Now move 9 for White. We are waiting. [tap-tap-tap-tap :D ]

[Letum]

Sorry

Bc1xg5

[Skybird]

It seems Letum is not convinced of my arguments :cry:

Match status:
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1983/image1hh5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[UnderseaLcpl]

Why I think my knight's demise is inevitable:

white 9. h4xg5

Oviously, my knight isn't going anywhere right now. If white's 10. is f2-f3, my knight is directly threatened. So, my first thought was to eliminate the pawn at g5.

black 9. Be7xg5, white rh1-h5, black h7-h6, white Ng1-f3, black Rh8-g8, setting the stage for a major bloodletting when white bc1xg5. black h6xg5, white Nf3xg5.

Black cannot harm the white knight at g5 immediately because rg8xg5 white Rh5-h8+ Black can only move the king aside and lose his queen.

Admittedly, this is going rather far into an arms buildup that may not happen or may be derailed at any point.

Going back to Black 9. be7xg5

another possibility is that white wil stick with f2-f3, forcing black to ng4-h6.
white can rh1-h6 with impunity because if black bg5-h6 whte bc1-h6.
And we don't want that. Or, I could kamikaze my knight into an empty square, instead of one with a pawn in it. But then at least white has to move his queen

I tried many variations of this, and none of them looked promising.

As soon as white threatens black's bishop with Rh1-h5, it starts an arms race that black can only lose, because white must make the first attack to initiate it. If white attacks too early, black can win or make an equal exchange, but I don't see Letum doing that.

------------
So next I thought about diverting the g5 pawn to extricate my knight. Unfortunately, there is only one way to do this. Well, two actually. Trying to use my f7 or h7 pawns to goad him into an enpassant. However, if white just sits there and doesn't take the bait, the situation gets even worse. He moves f2-f3 anyway, and I still lose the knight.
Total fail. I didn't even analyze it beyond that point.

Next I thought about Other moves white might consider besides f2-f3.

If I did something like Rh8-g8, to start a different arms race over g5. And white Nc3xd5, I now have knight in the middle of the board that will help thwart any chance of success I might have had in rapidly redeploying to the queens side. Even worse, another white piece is blocking my file to the white king, and I can't kill him.
And he still has f2-f3 to kill my knight with. And I lose a pawn.

At that point all I can do is Be7xg5 again. Or rg8xg5. That isn't going to happen.
White responds with Rh1-h7, I have no choice but to respond with Rg5-g8.

Actually, that doesn't sound so bad. If white threatens my knight at g3 again with f2-f3, Black ng4-f6, white is forced to Qg3-h2......:hmm:

Black c7-c6, white nd5-c3, black qd8-a5, white Rh8xf8+, black be7xf8, white Qh2-h6. Oh that's no good:nope:

I could prevent that but it means keeping pieces there to fortify the king. Including the queen. Not liking that.


So then I thought about other counters, or even just leaving the knight to his fate.

Black 9. d5xe4, white f1-e2. No.

Black c7-c6, white f2-f3, Black be7-g5, white f2-f3 (lose the knight again.) Black bc8-g4+ No.

Black c7-c6 white f1-e2 or f2-e3. Nothing.



Protecting the knight or leaving him where he is means killing my knight and my white bishop

Taking the g5 pawn with my black bishop has the potential to start an arms race in which white has the initiative. All he has to do is threaten g5 with his rook or knight.
I'm probably a bit off on this one, there may be an out in there, but I don't trust things to develop that way and I don't trust Letum to make a mistake.

Letting the knight wait to be threatened by a possible move of f2-f3 or f1-e2 could be worse.

But if I suicide him into f2, white must respond with qg3xf2. This opens some more options, such as a more attractive chance to develop an amrs race over g5. It also buys me some time.
I'm not finished experimenting with all the variations i can think of yet, but some seem promising, or at least less painful.


The other intriguing possibility is bc1-g4, but I can maintain momentum a lot more easily with that move, I think.


So, what am I missing? I'm sure I'm overlooking something.

[Letum]

It seems Letum is not convinced of my arguments :cry:


Letum didn't read them! ;)

I'm trying to avoid reading the team's plans.

*edit* In hindsight I would have moved g1-f3

[UnderseaLcpl]

Part 2, why I am thinking of discounting:
9. White h4xg5, black e7xg5
10. white Bc1xg5, black Qd8xg5
11. white Nc3xd5, black Kd8
12. white qg3-h4
no


or

9. White h4xg5, black e7xg5
10. white Bc1xg5, black Qd8xg5
11. white Qg3-h4.
no

or

9. White h4xg5, black e7xg5
white f2-f3 or Bf1-1e2
black Ng4-h6
no

9.White h4xg5, black 0-0
white f2-f3 black, whatever

Knight dies.

[Skybird]

It seems Letum is not convinced of my arguments :cry:


Letum didn't read them! ;)

I'm trying to avoid reading the team's plans.

*edit* In hindsight I would have moved g1-f3

Ehem, i think nobody would be angry if you do read them. It is only fair, and this match is more demonstration than match anyway.

[Skybird]

Lance, my eyelids are producing a strange slapping sound, so I suppose I better head for my bed now. I read your list tomorrow, okay?

[Letum]

I see a way to save the black knight(s).

Exchange the bishop
Move the queen to G5 to take my pawn
whatever my next move is; castle


no?


err...so that:

B: Be7xg5
W: Ph4xg5
B: Qd8xg5
if: W: Kg1-g3 or Kc3xd5 then: B: castle
or
if: W: Qg3-h4 then: B: Queen exchange or: B: Qg5-g6/g7/g8 or: B: cover queen with pawns, rook or knight

now knight has an exscape route

[UnderseaLcpl]

Lance, my eyelids are producing a strange slapping sound, so I suppose I better head for my bed now. I read your list tomorrow, okay?

No problem, but get some good rest. I'll have a another list for Letum's last move.
I think I know why he did it, and I think it may turn out well for black.

[UnderseaLcpl]

I see a way to save the black knight(s).

Exchange the bishop
Move the queen to G5 to take my pawn
whatever my next move is; castle
no?

I see a way to save the black knight(s).

Exchange the bishop
Move the queen to G5 to take my pawn
whatever my next move is; castle
no?

I think I'm misunderstanding you here. Or maybe I messed my board up.

Are these moves in sequence?

Are we looking at the same board sky just posted?

What if your next move is Qg3-h4? Castle?

What if it's f2-f3? Castle?

Or did you mean steps one and two, or step 3?

White h4xg5 Black 0-0??? What if the next by white is f2-f3?



ng1-f3?

hmm.......

black g5xe4, pending. I'd give my bishop for my knight and yours. And I would give my queen for yours if I have two knigths while you have 1.



Your choice on moves. Or perhaps you'd rather do something different. Or perhaps I've overlooked something again. We're here to learn, not just to win. Especially me :)

[RickC Sniper]

B: Be7xg5
W: Ph4xg5
B: Qd8xg5
if: W: Kg1-g3 or Kc3xd5 then: B: castle
or
if: W: Qg3-h4 then: B: Queen exchange or: B: Qg5-g6/g7/g8 or: B: cover queen with pawns, rook or knightnow knight has an exscape route

Letum, in the underlined move did you mean Knight g1-f3? Please use N for knight I was looking for a king move, :p

11. Ng1-f3 I think gives black an exchange of queens or better after:
11. Ng1-f3 Ng4-e3+

If 11. Nc3xd5 then yes, black can castle and maybe save the knight.

This is after 11. Ng1-f3
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v46/RickC/xhessgame3.jpg
1. e2-e4 e7-e5
2. Qd1-h5 Nb8-c6
3. d2-d3 d7-d5
4. Nb1-c3 Ng8-f6
5. Qh5-h4 Nc6-d4
6. Ke1-d1 Bf8-e7
7. Qh4-g3 Nf6-g4
8. h2-h4 g7-g5
9. Bc1xg5 Be7xg5
10. h4xg5 Qd8xg5
11. Ng1-f3

[porphy]

Hi

The possibility of move Ng4-e3+ for black is crucial in this position, as Rick points out.

But what if white plays 11. Ng1-h3 instead? Now the above reply won't work as white can capture the Knight with Qg3xe3. So, black queen has to move. Possibly retreating to d8 (or maybe f6 and later d6) to cover the c7 square again. If white tries f2-f3 at once, the trusted Ng4-e3+ still works. If white plays Nc3xd5 black can perhaps attack it at with c7-c6 and hope he can get away with losing a pawn. But....

The problem for black is that the knight at g5 can't move without leaving the pawn at e5 unprotected... and moving the knight also exposes the g7 square to a threatening queen move for white. In many variations it looks like black has to continue tactical play to keep the knight alive and to keep the game in balance, for example:

11. Ng1-h3, Qg5-h5 (guards the e5 and g4, threatens a nasty double check with Ng4xf2!)

But all in all, this line of play seems to give white a better and better game, as black tries to hold on to a position that gets more and more overextended.

Edit: I'm away rock climbing today, so I have to check back later and see what happens. :)

cheers Porphy

[Skybird]

Why I think my knight's demise is inevitable:

white 9. h4xg5

Oviously, my knight isn't going anywhere right now. If white's 10. is f2-f3, my knight is directly threatened. So, my first thought was to eliminate the pawn at g5.

black 9. Be7xg5, white rh1-h5, black h7-h6, white Ng1-f3, black Rh8-g8, setting the stage for a major bloodletting when white bc1xg5. black h6xg5, white Nf3xg5.

Black cannot harm the white knight at g5 immediately because rg8xg5 white Rh5-h8+ Black can only move the king aside and lose his queen.

You variation is not precisely calculated.

9 hg5: Bg5: 10 Bg5: Qg5: 11 Nd5: and white leads by one pawn and threatens a fork at c7.



Going back to Black 9. be7xg5

another possibility is that white wil stick with f2-f3, forcing black to ng4-h6.
white can rh1-h6 with impunity because if black bg5-h6 whte bc1-h6.
And we don't want that. Or, I could kamikaze my knight into an empty square, instead of one with a pawn in it. But then at least white has to move his queen

I tried many variations of this, and none of them looked promising.

As soon as white threatens black's bishop with Rh1-h5, it starts an arms race that black can only lose, because white must make the first attack to initiate it. If white attacks too early, black can win or make an equal exchange, but I don't see Letum doing that.

Why the obession with Rh5 - that move is not needed. For example:

9 hg5: Bg5: 10 f3 Bf4 11 Bf4: ef4: 12 Gf4: Nf2+ 13 Kd2(or Kc1) Nh1: +-
and then White torment Black by Qe5+, threatening the Rook at h8 and the knight at d4 at the same time.



So next I thought about diverting the g5 pawn to extricate my knight. Unfortunately, there is only one way to do this. Well, two actually. Trying to use my f7 or h7 pawns to goad him into an enpassant. However, if white just sits there and doesn't take the bait, the situation gets even worse. He moves f2-f3 anyway, and I still lose the knight.
Total fail. I didn't even analyze it beyond that point.


If you want to bait somebody, get yourself a line and go fishing. :D



So then I thought about other counters, or even just leaving the knight to his fate.

Black 9. d5xe4, white f1-e2. No.

No indeed, but for different reasons:

Black c7-c6, white f2-f3, Black be7-g5, white f2-f3 (lose the knight again.) Black bc8-g4+ No.

Black c7-c6 white f1-e2 or f2-e3. Nothing.


9 f3 de4: 10 fe4: gh4: 11 Qe1 -+

Omne woird to the new symbols I use, like +- or =+ . the first is white, the second is black. It is a breif expression of which side stands has the advatange in that psoition, += means White stands slightly better, and -+ means Black stands clearly better and has a solid advantage.



But if I suicide him into f2, white must respond with qg3xf2. This opens some more options, such as a more attractive chance to develop an amrs race over g5. It also buys me some time.

Do not base your tactics and strategy on hoping the opponent plays mistakes. You exploit his weaknesses and use his mistakes to his disadvanatge, of course, but do not base your strategy on that exlcuiosvely. You want your strategy to include a.) a longterm plan that reflects the ideas of the opening or events in midgame in the final phase of the match, and b.) sees you in a position of strength so that you can enforce that strategy even if he tries to prevent that strategy. currently, you are in a tactical exchnage, though. So focus on precise calculation. Of course I do not expect you tpo already play perfect, you will do this many, many times before your skills will raise that much that you perceive the increase, but of course I must tell you to try to calculate as precise as you can, currently, this is bread and butter for oyu currently, and more importan than anything I say regarding strategy. currently, you just miss too many moves that spoil your calculations. that is okay, nobody expects it any different. But we want you to improve in that regard, right?



The other intriguing possibility is bc1-g4, but I can maintain momentum a lot more easily with that move, I think.

Certanly not. Never will a Bishop move from c1 to g4. :)

[Skybird]

Part 2, why I am thinking of discounting:
9. White h4xg5, black e7xg5
10. white Bc1xg5, black Qd8xg5
11. white Nc3xd5, black Kd8
12. white qg3-h4

the Queen move possibly is not the strongest, but the rest is well calculated.



9. White h4xg5, black e7xg5
10. white Bc1xg5, black Qd8xg5
11. white Qg3-h4.
no

No-no-no, it is "oh yesss!" By Qh4, White hands over his advantage to Black again:

11 Qh4 Qh4: 12 Rh4: Nf2+ 13 Kc1(or Kd2) de4: 14 Ne4: Nf2: de4: and Black has one pawn more than White.



9. White h4xg5, black e7xg5
white f2-f3 or Bf1-1e2
black Ng4-h6
no

Because why?



9.White h4xg5, black 0-0
white f2-f3 black, whatever

How? Just asking.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Some good tips in the above posts that I willl try to keep in mind.

I think I may be a bit thick, as I still cannot see how castling has anything to do with my knight at g4 staying alive. :doh: I have a hard time keeping all these variations straight, and sometimes I carry them way farther than anything I could reasonably calculate.

To make matters worse, I spent all that time calculating (often typo'd or imprecise)variations for .....
White9. h4xg5, and then Letum goes and moves Bc1xg5


Right now, I'm considering these moves;

Black 9. h7-h5. or Be7xg5 or f7-f5

[Skybird]

To make matters worse, I spent all that time calculating (often typo'd or imprecise)variations for .....
White9. h4xg5, and then Letum goes and moves Bc1xg5

Well, you reserve most of your time to calculate what you consider his strongest move, or what you expect him to move, but you also keep an eye on other options he has. It's about time management, and setting priorities.

Right now, I'm considering these moves;

Black 9. h7-h5. or Be7xg5 or f7-f5

Of the moves you mentioned, focus on f5, although there is another move that is somewhat recommending itself. h5 just cripples your casteling position and opens your king'S flank for nothing. White'S answer to your weak move g5 has not been as strong as possible, but with h5 and Bg5: you again hand over the advantage to White.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Of the moves you mentioned, focus on f5, although there is another move that is somewhat recommending itself. h5 just cripples your casteling position and opens your king'S flank for nothing. White'S answer to your weak move g5 has not been as strong as possible, but with h5 and Bg5: you again hand over the advantage to White.


It seems to me that right now the greatest threat is white 10 f2-3
or white 10 Nc3xd5. Is that an incorrect assumption?

these are the variations I have worked out(trying to keep them shorter and error-free)

Black 9. f7-f5
10. white f2-f3, black f5-f4 white's queen is lost.

10. white e4xf5, black Nd4xf5 White's only recourse is Qg3-f3. It seems like this could be followed by black qd8xe7 should White choose to attack the bishop at e7. Should white's queen attack black's knight at g4, black responds with Nf5-e3+
and white loses his queen.

10. white Nc3xd5, black f5-f4. It seems like this could be followed by black qd8-d7 should white choose to attack the bishop at e7. I don't see any other moves that save his queen in the end.

As such, I submit f7-f5 for consideration.

although there is another move that is somewhat recommending itself

I'm not sure if I see it. I think you might be recommending d5xe4. I haven't pursued that to a great extent yet. I don't have a lot of time to look at it now, but I think it might be good. Looking at it briefly, I think it may be better than f7-f5.


















f7-f5 seems like the best move to counter these threats.

[Skybird]

Black 9. f7-f5
10. white f2-f3, black f5-f4 white's queen is lost.

10. white e4xf5, black Nd4xf5 White's only recourse is Qg3-f3. It seems like this could be followed by black qd8xe7 should White choose to attack the bishop at e7. Should white's queen attack black's knight at g4, black responds with Nf5-e3+
and white loses his queen.

10. white Nc3xd5, black f5-f4. It seems like this could be followed by black qd8-d7 should white choose to attack the bishop at e7. I don't see any other moves that save his queen in the end.

As such, I submit f7-f5 for consideration.

Well, yes. Very complicated situation, i admit I struggle myself a bit now.


I'm not sure if I see it. I think you might be recommending d5xe4. I haven't pursued that to a great extent yet. I don't have a lot of time to look at it now, but I think it might be good. Looking at it briefly, I think it may be better than f7-f5.

Indeed, de4: is what I meant. It opens the d-line on which the king is positioned, but unfortunately it moves your queen off that nice firing position on d8: Be7: would be White's reply most certainly.

In case of your move not being de4: but f5, you need to take into account four possible answers: White moves Nd5: or Be7: (probably white' two best answers), f4 (making things even more complicated to calculate), and ef5: also should not been ignored.

If you feel you suffer from overload, try to simplify the situation, if you see a possibility. Maybe you do not make the best moves that way, but it cannot be helped: you need to come along with the skills oyu have NOW, not in the future, so try to chnage situation that you can calculate it again. juzst make sure that your way to take complexity out of the situation is a safe way and does not leave you at your disadvanatge. remember that White faces the same calculation problems like you.

A bit chess psychology sometimes is on order. Namely: bluffing. But this i never have written, so treat it as if you never have read it.

welcome in the middle of the maelstrom. The match approaches the event horizon. Paddle for your life, or sink like a stone.:D

[UnderseaLcpl]

welcome in(to(edit)) the middle of the maelstrom. The match approaches the event horizon. Paddle for your life, or sink like a stone.:D


Despite the fact that English is your second language you certainly have a way with words:D

I need a bit more time to consider my move. In the meantime, more suggestions (edit-from anyone)would be appreciated.:up:

[UnderseaLcpl]

If there are no objections.....

white 9. bc1xg5
black 9. f7-f5, official move

[Skybird]

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/9766/image1gf8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Letum]

*edit*

[Skybird]

*edit*
Ah. :know:

[Letum]

no...I was right...Nc3xd5

[baggygreen]

My timid guesses for the next couple...

Black QD8-D6 (less likely for White G5xE7 because theres not much to gain from that now white can't trap the queen in there - a 1 for 1 trade on bishops benefits neither)

White could castle

Black H7-H6 which would force the white bishop to retreat and as such start opening up the right hand side a bit.

maybe?

[Skybird]

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4254/image1ra9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I see no reason why to make Black'S life more complicated than necessary by moving Qd6. It is a long - a very long combination before black gets back that figure he would immediately lose, and that would distract him from pushing his attack.

h6 lets Black lose a figure without compensation or later taking-back, i think.

Lance, you moved g5 and f5 and by that corrupted your king'S flank completely, short casteling now makes no more sense. the king's perspective thus lies in long casteling, if he still must do it. You started to let your batallions engage in frontal attack on the king's wing, well, now go all the way and push as far as you can.

there is only one good move, I would say. Black trails behind by two pawns currently, but his initiative currently seems to compensate for that. If he loses that initiative, then the loss will make itself being felt. I'm not sure that it will hold.

[Letum]

I may be in the corner of the ring, but I'm throwing out the punches still. :D

[Skybird]

Let's see if he can change that! ;)

[baggygreen]

/image

h6 lets Black lose a figure without compensation or later taking-back, i think.

.Im a bit lost i think sky.. how does H6 make black lose a piece with no gain? the bishop can either take the pawn, and subsequently be taken by the rook, or he must retreat - and retreat quite a way, given the positions in the centre of the board...?

Im probably missing something very very obvious

[UnderseaLcpl]

If black moves h7-h6 white will respond with bg5xe7. Not good.

Similarly, black Qd8-d6 will probably result in white Nd5xe7, not good.


However, I planned on white attempting Nc3xd5. To avoid any nasty surprises involving attacks on black's king and queen, I think Be7xg5 should be the next move. A bishop for a bishop, and black is poised to take the white queen.




Be7xg5, pending

Thoughts?

[porphy]

I think Be7xg5 should be the next move. A bishop for a bishop, and black is poised to take the white queen.
If you think about the move f4 directly after the exchange, it is to late. The queen will not be trapped after the exchange. When white recaptures the bishop a new square will be free and will serve as a nice escape route. :) And the White queens position is actually good on the now weak black kingside. Black has to think, as a start, about the white queen moving to h5+ or the knight to f6+.

10 ..., Be7xg5
11 h4xg5, f4
12 Qh4, perhaps h7-h5


If white is careful to avoid any surprises at the e3 square from the knight, he will soon have many possibilities to exchange pieces and be on top of things, as the black attack loses momentum and leaves him pawns behind.

Looks like black has to take action at once with 10 ..., f5-f4. A move that still holds some nice possibilities for black. :)

cheers Porphy

[Skybird]

/image

h6 lets Black lose a figure without compensation or later taking-back, i think.

.Im a bit lost i think sky.. how does H6 make black lose a piece with no gain? the bishop can either take the pawn, and subsequently be taken by the rook, or he must retreat - and retreat quite a way, given the positions in the centre of the board...?

Im probably missing something very very obvious

The killing score is +2 for White: 2 pawns versus none, currently. After h6, there is some enforced exchnage of material that shifts the balance to Black'S disadvantage.

10... h6?? 11 Be7: f4 12 bd8: fg3: 13 Bc7: Sf2:+ 14 Kd2 Sc6


(if 14 ... Nh1:? then 15 Be5:! O-O 16 Bd4:


http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7892/pos9om3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


and the killing score is +4 for White (9:5) - 1 bishop + 1 knight + 3 pawns vesus 1 rook, and by first glance I would say White's position offers the better chances, even more since after White Nf3 that black knight at h1 is in trouble and probbaly only can be exchnaged at cost of loosing the püawn at g3 as well, while the White pawn structure is secured. )


15 Rh3 Nh3: 16 gh3:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2128/pos8ge4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The killing score is +3 for White (8:5) - 1 bishop + 1 knight + 2 pawns versus 1 rook. White seems to have more active play.

[Skybird]

I think Be7xg5 should be the next move. A bishop for a bishop, and black is poised to take the white queen.
If you think about the move f4 directly after the exchange, it is to late. The queen will not be trapped after the exchange. When white recaptures the bishop a new square will be free and will serve as a nice escape route. :) And the White queens position is actually good on the now weak black kingside. Black has to think, as a start, about the white queen moving to h5+ or the knight to f6+.

10 ..., Be7xg5
11 h4xg5, f4
12 Qh4, perhaps h7-h5


If white is careful to avoid any surprises at the e3 square from the knight, he will soon have many possibilities to exchange pieces and be on top of things, as the black attack loses momentum and leaves him pawns behind.

Looks like black has to take action at once with 10 ..., f5-f4. A move that still holds some nice possibilities for black. :)

cheers Porphy

:up:

[UnderseaLcpl]

I think Be7xg5 should be the next move. A bishop for a bishop, and black is poised to take the white queen.
If you think about the move f4 directly after the exchange, it is to late. The queen will not be trapped after the exchange. When white recaptures the bishop a new square will be free and will serve as a nice escape route.........

Looks like black has to take action at once with 10 ..., f5-f4. A move that still holds some nice possibilities for black. :)

cheers Porphy

It would seem I made an error somewhere, because I can't replicate the position I thought I would have for be7xg5.


Very well. I add my vote to Porphy's and sky's so the official move is f5-f4


White 10. Nc3xd5
Black 10. f5-f4

[Skybird]

Nasty little move. Fies - aber gut!



http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/817/image2da6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

But I admit I start to lose overview. :D

Any idea what to do with your king next time you get a chance, Lance?

[Letum]

Nd5xf4

[Skybird]

moved
Ah. :-?

[Letum]

moved

[Skybird]

Now this needs exact calculation again. A good board oversight might help in avoiding to miss something, so...:

After White 11 Sd5xf4

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6315/image4fv5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9084/image5iz3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[UnderseaLcpl]

Any idea what to do with your king next time you get a chance, Lance?

Do you think now is the time for castling? I do.:D

0-0, pending

[Skybird]

0-0, pending

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/481/ermyyellingyb9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

"Holy cow...!!!"

[UnderseaLcpl]

oh, f2-f3, right. :oops:


e5xf4, i guess?

[Skybird]

oh, f2-f3, right. :oops:


e5xf4, i guess?
Guessing something is fine. Having a reason for something is better. ;)

What are White's options? What are his threats? Obviously their are several possible ways for exchnages in the next moves. Calculate them. Your king stands almost naked. Where are your weanesses? Where are your strengths? Currently you are behind in the material bilance. If you consider yourself to have compensation for that, what is it? Can the advantage be exploited?

[UnderseaLcpl]

What are White's options? What are his threats? Obviously their are several possible ways for exchnages in the next moves. Calculate them. Your king stands almost naked. Where are your weanesses? Where are your strengths? Currently you are behind in the material bilance. If you consider yourself to have compensation for that, what is it? Can the advantage be exploited?


Well, white's queen is boxed in, and his next move will will probably be bg5xf4 if he wants to keep her. Doing that could give him leverage against the black queen sometime in the future, maybe. His pawns give him a powerful defensive advantage, but black has the advantage in mobility and redployment with his side being less cluttered, and white is less one knight.

However, the black knights are in a precarious position that has only been maintained by sacrificing pawns, which we are fresh out of at the moment.
Should either of them be displaced, white's queen will regain some mobility.
As you said, the king is exposed, and I don't quite know what to think of that.

If white does use bg5xe4 as his next move, black might respond with Rh8-g8, since I do expect white to move that f2 pawn soon. Rh8-g8 will at least keep the white queen in that corner once Black withdraws his g4 knight to f6.




btw, sky, you really threw me off by mentioning the king. I'm sure you were talking about castling, but when?..........


Ok that's as far as I got before I saw something . I'm almost afraid to ask but, be7xg5?

It seems like white would have move his knight to h3 or h5 after my queen ends up on g5, probably h3........

and I don't know after that. I don't want to take it any further because I've been a poor judge of white's impending moves thus far.

If I think about it too much, I just make errors or get lost.

[Skybird]

Well, white's queen is boxed in,

Yes, and her only field she can move is under covered thread from c8.



and his next move will will probably be bg5xf4

he can't take his own knight.



His pawns give him a powerful defensive advantage,

No, not really. If anything, than they eventually will be a factor for pushing an attack and advance a pawn towards transformation.



but black has the advantage in mobility and redployment

Much of which you have given away earlier, and regained it only becasue white played sub-optimal.



with his side being less cluttered,

Calling the absence of a flank defense "less cluttered" must be the euphemism of th month! :lol:



and white is less one knight.

That equals just the three pawns he leads by. do not underestimate pawns just becasue they are pawns. They are the skeleton of the position.



However, the black knights are in a precarious position that has only been maintained by sacrificing pawns, which we are fresh out of at the moment.

You somewhat exchanged material for time and space. they are not really lost, you just lend them, and will get material compensation for them as well. Then the time and space advantage should stand out and really make a difference. Although you were low on material in the past moves, your psotion was to be preferred, and you had better chances.



As you said, the king is exposed, and I don't quite know what to think of that.

That's not good because it should make you think indeed.



If white does use bg5xe4 as his next move,

that is not possible a move.



black might respond with Rh8-g8, since I do expect white to move that f2 pawn soon. Rh8-g8 will at least keep the white queen in that corner once Black withdraws his g4 knight to f6.

Why should he want to? Rg8 leaves the Rook uncovered, so even when the g-line opens up, the white queen wil simply take him with check. White f3 leaves him with the problem that place gets crowded, then, only the field e2 is free for both the white bishop f1 and knight g1 to develope, which leaves one of them blocking the other. so do not be so sure about f3. yoiu mentioned your next move Bg5:, and that is the focus of action you now should focus on. Keep track of the precise variations.



btw, sky, you really threw me off by mentioning the king. I'm sure you were talking about castling, but when?..........

there is an alternative. The king can castel to both sides.



Ok that's as far as I got before I saw something . I'm almost afraid to ask but, be7xg5?

See above.



It seems like white would have move his knight to h3 or h5 after my queen ends up on g5, probably h3........

Focus on the exchange of g5, and the centre. If you want to prevent an enemy foiring a mortar at you - keep him running so that he can't set it up. Make him react to you, not the other way around. Be agressive, but not easy-minded.

Don't forget your king. As longs as Rooks and Queens are left in game, a centred king without defense is at risk.



If I think about it too much, I just make errors or get lost.

thinking too much? currently you miss to many things, so think more!

[UnderseaLcpl]

Clarification: The plain text in the above post assumes that black's 11. is e5xf4.
That was the subject under discussion when I started writing it, no?

Then I switched to bold text. I did say "That was as far as I got before I saw something"
My fault for not making it clearer. All the bold text refers to black 11. being be7xg5.

I was trying to show my thought process.

So, with that cleared up, what do you think?

[Skybird]

So, with that cleared up, what do you think?
Same as before. ;)

[UnderseaLcpl]

white 11. nd5xf4
black 11. be7xg5

Official move, if there are no objections.

[Letum]

Ph4xg5

[Skybird]

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3741/image1zk4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Now the next move should be obvious, Lance.

[Letum]

Now the next move should be obvious, Lance.

Qd8-f6? :arrgh!:

[porphy]

white 11. nd5xf4
black 11. be7xg5

Official move, if there are no objections.

I don't object, but I would have chosen 11. ..., exf4. Why? It would keep up the pressure on the queen. If white plays right now, after blacks be7xg5, it looks to me that the white queen is going to end up at h4 which isn't to bad for white. That gives chances for potential forceful counter play along the h-file.
Still, I have to admit that all the different tactical options are a bit hard to judge correct.

If black would have played 11. ..., exf4 something like this could have happened. :D (excuse my short visit to the land of if.)This also shows the theme of why white playing pawn to f3 isn't always a big worry, as UnderseaLcpl often seems to think when looking at the seemingly stranded knight at g4.

11. ..., exf4
12. Bxf4, Bd6
13. Bxd6, cxd6
14. f3, Ne3+
15. Ke1, Nexc2+
16. Kf2, Qb6
17. Qg7, Nf5+
18. Ke2, Qe3+
and black forces mate in a few more moves.

[UnderseaLcpl]

e5xf4?

[Letum]

Qg3-h4

[UnderseaLcpl]

Qg3-h4


e5xf4? wasn't supposed to be an official move. It was a question.

But to avoid confusion, official moves by black will be posted in this format;

white 11. nd5xf4
black 11. be7xg5

Official move

[Skybird]

Yay, no move. Recognized it as a question from first second on.

As I said, Lance, the move recommends itself, just look at what it does to the balance of taken pieces.

the motive is obvious , and so is Letum's reply. So I assume that you both stick with your moves. If not, let me know, and I reverse the status diagram:

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/3017/image2aj0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

It's getting time for your king to beam into safety, Lance. White still has four long-ranging pieces - and you opened all your lines on the king's side. Get him out there.

You want to guard against White g6, since h7 cannot take it: the rook on h8 is not covered against the White Queen.
You want to keep a long gun aiming on the d-line.
You do not want to block the Bishop c8 against moving out.
You do not want to interrupt cover for both black rooks.
You do not want to let the queen let behind on some field, uncovered.

That leaves you with pretty much just one reasonable move.

Although it seems that somehow Black my win material, one or two pawns, in the future, I am not sure at the moment if White really has no compensation, for your 8th move, g5??, really was a terrible one, that blew all your chances to conduct maybe a direct combinatory attack against the king. right now it looks as if you are set for a long endgame, and a defensive battle against White trying to transrom one of his pawns - he has five (!) pawns on unblocked lines , and a clear pawn majority on king's wing (or do you say: side, flank?) and in centre.

A clear picture cannot be projected, since much depends on White'S replies to you future moves. Hard to calculate, therefore. No suicidal heroism now, please. Keep ypur army together, and pieces in mutual supporting positions, don'T leave some pieces stranded somehwerre, uncovered.

[Skybird]

A word on Black 8... g5??

One learns from mistakes, and I think it is important that oyu get at least an idea what potential you gave away there, Lance.

the following are two computer-analysis, since that part of the match is over and nobody gains an advantage from seeing these computer results now. It gives you an idea, I hope, why I said that you are in the better position there. The first is by Hiarcs 10, which is the more modern engine of the two, the second by Fritz 8, two years older. Hiarcs is stronger in positional understanding and you see that he starts to rate the position better than Fritz from the beginning on. Fritz is older, and not so heavy in chess-knowledge. However, I let Hiarcs calculate into the future 20 moves, resulting in material advantage, and positional advantage. Fritz even made White resign before that number of moves.

Behind each move, you have two numbers, separated by a dash. The first gives the position evaluation in pawn-units, the theoretical value of one pawn is 1.0, positives are in favour of White, negatives in favour of Black. -2.3 means that the engines sees Black having an overall advantage worth 2.3 pawns. This evaluation takes into account much more than just material, but positional advantages as well. Since Hiarcs is stronger in that than Fritz, it rates the position more in Black's favour. - The second number simply displays how many half-moves the engine has calculated ahead before giving the actual move.

Maybe print the move list, for your convenience. But play both variations on your board, and see what could have been, and by that see what went wrong with 8...g5.


8.h2-h4



Hiarcs 10

8...d5xe4 -2.18/11
9.f2-f3 -2.05/12 f7-f5 -1.95/12
10.Qg3-e1 -2.09/13 e4xd3 -2.05/12
11.c2xd3 -2.09/14 Ng4-f6 -1.99/14
12.Qe1xe5 -1.93/13 c7-c5 -2.03/11
13.Nc3-e2 -2.11/13 Nd4-c6 -2.05/11
14.Qe5-c3 -2.13/12 Bc8-e6 -2.07/11
15.Ne2-f4 -2.05/11 Be6-f7 -2.06/11
16.Bc1–e3 -2.30/12 Be7-d6 -2.29/10
17.Ng1–e2 -2.19/11 Qd8-e7 -2.08/10
18.Be3-f2 -2.09/11 0–0 -2.11/10
19.Kd1–c1 -1.99/11 Nc6-d4 -2.13/10
20.Kc1–b1 -2.12/11 Rf8-e8 -2.19/10
21.Qc3-a5 -2.27/10 Bd6xf4 -2.38/10
22.Ne2xf4 -2.59/11 b7-b5 -2.46/11
23.Qa5-d2 -2.58/12 b5-b4 -2.65/12
24.Qd2-c1 -2.71/11 b4-b3 -2.59/11
25.h4-h5 -2.67/11 b3xa2+ -3.02/11
26.Ra1xa2 -3.05/12 Bf7xa2+ -3.29/11
27.Kb1xa2 -3.26/12 Ra8-b8 -3.34/11

Black leads by a Rook and a knight (8.3 points) versus two bishops (6.6 points). White'S king is naked, Black controls e-line with a double battery and fires on the b-line as well. White's bishops are in prison, so is his Rook h1. Blacks figure'S have better chances to act in harmony with each other, than White. White has no compnesation whatever for his losses.



Fritz 8

8...d5xe4 -1.97/9 3
9.f2-f3 -2.00/11 f7-f5 -1.75/11
10.h4-h5 -2.03/10 f5-f4 -2.00/10
11.Qg3-e1 -1.97/10 Be7-b4 -1.66/9
12.Bc1xf4 -1.41/9 Qd8-f6 -1.31/8
13.Ng1–h3 -1.53/8 e4xf3 -1.44/8
14.g2xf3 -2.34/10 0–0 -2.19/9
15.f3xg4 -2.72/10 Bc8xg4+ -2.41/10
16.Kd1–c1 -2.94/12 Bg4xh3 -2.31/9
17.Qe1xe5 -2.66/11 Ra8-e8 -2.59/10
18.Nc3-e4 -3.06/11 Qf6-f7 -3.13/10
19.Qe5-g5 -3.69/11 Nd4-e6 -3.38/10
20.Qg5-h4 -3.94/12 Bh3xf1 -3.88/10
21.Bf4-d2 -4.12/11 Bb4xd2+ -4.38/11
22.Ne4xd2 -4.59/12 Bf1–g2 -4.91/11
23.Rh1–d1 -5.09/11 Qf7-f4 -5.47/12
24. resign

Hopeless situation.


now check what yopu could have gotten into if White would have exploited your mistake correctly:



8...g5??

Hiarcs:
9.h4xg5 0.83/11 d5xe4 1.55/12
10.f2-f3 1.43/12 e4xd3 1.77/11
11.Bf1xd3 2.01/11 Nd4-f5 2.50/11
12.Qg3-e1 2.48/12 Nf5-d4 2.48/11
13.f3xg4 2.48/11 Bc8xg4+ 2.64/12
14.Ng1–f3 2.55/12 Qd8-d7 2.23/10
15.Qe1–g3 2.18/10 0–0–0 2.25/10
16.Kd1–e1 2.25/10 Bg4xf3 2.14/10
17.g2xf3 2.27/11 f7-f5 2.29/10
18.g5xf6 2.32/11 Be7xf6 2.31/10
19.Qg3-g4 2.31/11 h7-h5 2.39/10

See how the position evaluation immediately jumps to White's advantage by a huge increase, almost 3 pawn-units?

Black has lost a bishop for a pawn only, and the offensive potential of his position befor 8...g5 is gone. You were lucky with Letum's reply.

[UnderseaLcpl]

So I assume that you both stick with your moves. If not, let me know, and I reverse the status diagram:

I'll stick with d5xe4, I just didn't want to act in haste and mess something up again.

Thanks for the computer analyses sky. It's going to take me a whiles to map them out and learn from them, but I think they'll help.:up:

[UnderseaLcpl]

You want to guard against White g6, since h7 cannot take it: the rook on h8 is not covered against the White Queen.
You want to keep a long gun aiming on the d-line.
You do not want to block the Bishop c8 against moving out.
You do not want to interrupt cover for both black rooks.
You do not want to let the queen let behind on some field, uncovered.


h7-h5?

[Skybird]

So I assume that you both stick with your moves. If not, let me know, and I reverse the status diagram:

I'll stick with d5xe4, I just didn't want to act in haste and mess something up again.

Thanks for the computer analyses sky. It's going to take me a whiles to map them out and learn from them, but I think they'll help.:up:
You could also use your chessmaster to analyse the many if'S of the position after 8...g5. Just do not use it on the actual position, it would be unfair towards Letum, and would not help you to improve your skills.

[Skybird]

You want to guard against White g6, since h7 cannot take it: the rook on h8 is not covered against the White Queen.
You want to keep a long gun aiming on the d-line.
You do not want to block the Bishop c8 against moving out.
You do not want to interrupt cover for both black rooks.
You do not want to let the queen let behind on some field, uncovered.


h7-h5?
that surely helps with castling queen side. :doh:

[UnderseaLcpl]

You could also use your chessmaster to analyse the many if'S of the position after 8...g5. Just do not use it on the actual position, it would be unfair towards Letum, and would not help you to improve your skills.

I don't have Chessmaster. Just Arena 1.1 without an engine. And my chessboard. :cry:

[Skybird]

[quote=UnderseaLcpl][ You could also use your chessmaster to analyse the many if'S of the position after 8...g5. Just do not use it on the actual position, it would be unfair towards Letum, and would not help you to improve your skills.

I don't have Chessmaster. Just Arena 1.1 without an engine. And my chessboard. :cry:
Ah, somebody else it was, I think porphy, and another guy.

Check the homepage of Arena, they have several free engines and opening books.

I also recommend, for reduced price, this:

http://www.amazon.com/Viva-Media-Fritz-Chess/dp/B000TYUXJ0/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1221741603&sr=8-2

No need to spend 60$ on the latest versions by Chessbase's engines.

[UnderseaLcpl]

You want to guard against White g6, since h7 cannot take it: the rook on h8 is not covered against the White Queen.
You want to keep a long gun aiming on the d-line.
You do not want to block the Bishop c8 against moving out.
You do not want to interrupt cover for both black rooks.
You do not want to let the queen let behind on some field, uncovered.


h7-h5?
that surely helps with castling queen side. :doh:


It helps a lot more than black 13.?? white 13. qh4-h5+, right?

[Skybird]

It helps a lot more than black 13.?? white 13. qh4-h5+, right?
http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/6647/hartmanat0.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Well Sunny, it seems there is nevertheless some chessplayer hidden behind this face of yours... I was thinking of Qd6, or Be6... All three is playable, but I'm in a hurry right now, so: carpe diem... Just see where the Queen can move to from h5 and after Ke7 - you sure White plays well when moving Qh5+ ?

[porphy]

Hi

White will probably attack the knight and exchange at g4 if possible, for example with Bf1-e2. White playing Qh4-h5+ at once leaves the square f2 vulnerable for a checking fork. Need to keep an eye on that. And white playing f2-f3 is no good idea as shown before. So it seems black might have just about the time needed to evacuate his majesty! Question is, how is it best done? :) I think I would have played Bc8-e6.

cheers porphy

[UnderseaLcpl]

Hi

White will probably attack the knight and exchange at g4 if possible, for example with Bf1-e2. White playing Qh4-h5+ at once leaves the square f2 vulnerable for a checking fork. Need to keep an eye on that. And white playing f2-f3 is no good idea as shown before. So it seems black might have just about the time needed to evacuate his majesty! Question is, how is it best done? :) I think I would have played Bc8-e6.

cheers porphy

I'm not ready to discount white 14. Qh4-h5+
He can just go back to h4 after black moves the king, ruining my fork again, and ruining any chance of castling. That's what I would do.

That bishop at f1 does concern me, though.

I can't seem to work out any variations where black doesn't suffer from trying avoid Qg3-g4+, unless white makes a mistake.

Here's one move list I worked out for h7-h5. It's probably not very precise and it involves a lot of carnage. It also seems hopelessly optimistic....

13.Qg3-h4 h7-h5
14.Bf1-e2 Ng4xf2+
15.Qh4xf2 f4-f3
16.Be2xf3 Nd4xf3
17.Qf2xf3 Rh8-f8
18.Qf3-g3 Rf8-f1+
19.Kd1-e2 Bc8-g4+
20.Ke2-e3 Qd8xg5+
21.Ke3-d4 Ra8-d8+
22.Kd4-c4 Bg4-e6+


Here's why I didn't consider Qd8-d6 much;
13.Qg3-h4 Qd8-d6
14.Qh4-h5+ Ke8-d8
15.Qh5-h4, ????
16. g5-g6+

And this;

13.Qg3-h4 Qd8-d6
14.Qh4-h5+ Ke8-e7 or d8
15.Qh5-h4

Which doesn't look too good, imo.

I discounted Bc8-e6 for similar reasons, I can still end up in check, and it isn't like that bishop is getting off that diagonal while the knight at g4 is there, which makes the move kind of pointless, I think.

13.Qg3-h4 Bc8-e6
14.Qh4-h5+ Ke8-f8
15.Qh5-h4


Another "ouch"
13.Qg3-h4 Qd8-d6
14.Bf1-e2 Ng4-e5
15.Qh4-h5+


So, I really don't know what to do, but I'm considering h7-h5 for the time being. :roll:

[porphy]

I'm not ready to discount white 14. Qh4-h5+
He can just go back to h4 after black moves the king, ruining my fork again, and ruining any chance of castling. That's what I would do.

That is certainly true, it ruins your castling, but black could adopt the "slow castling" method by moving the king and the other pieces one at a time. If white moves his queen twice just to give one check, with no powerful follow up, that gives black two free moves, evacuating the king! (which is what black wants anyway) And white lost tempo... and is back in his starting position...
Hence, the Bc8-e6 is just a way to start the process even before the possibility of a white check. Black counts on keep moving his king and queen, so that the rooks gets connected, and then the a8 rook can finally be played to the kingside.
Yes, your move h7-h5 will certainly come to use later on, but I think the priority for black is to get the king out of the way, and at the same time strengthen his position. That is getting the rooks and queen to work together. h7-h5 can be inter foiled somewhere along the way.

cheers Porphy

[porphy]

Here's one move list I worked out for h7-h5. It's probably not very precise and it involves a lot of carnage. It also seems hopelessly optimistic....

13.Qg3-h4 h7-h5
14.Bf1-e2 Ng4xf2+
15.Qh4xf2 f4-f3
16.Be2xf3 Nd4xf3
17.Qf2xf3 Rh8-f8
18.Qf3-g3 Rf8-f1+
19.Kd1-e2 Bc8-g4+
20.Ke2-e3 Qd8xg5+
21.Ke3-d4 Ra8-d8+
22.Kd4-c4 Bg4-e6+
I wouldn't worry to much about the bishop coming to e2, but put a question mark behind the reply 14. ..., Ng4xf2+

Why not
14. ..., Nd4xe2
15. Kd1xe2, Qd4!

or

14. ..., Nd4xe2
15. Ng1xe2, Qd6
(black is only two moves from proper castling, but the pawn at f4 will be under attack, but black has some countermeasures!)

Looks a lot more promising and a clean cut, don't you think? Maybe h7-h5 is an option after all. :up:

But I think black has to look closer at white playing 14. g5xh5 (en passant) before going down the route of h7-h5. i leave that to you guys... :yep:

cheers Porphy

[UnderseaLcpl]

But I think black has to look closer at white playing 14. g5xh5 (en passant) before going down the route of h7-h5.


Question. Why would he do that? Black's response would almost certainly be Rh8xh6, no?

[Skybird]

edit

[Skybird]

Here's one move list I worked out for h7-h5. It's probably not very precise and it involves a lot of carnage. It also seems hopelessly optimistic....
13.Qg3-h4 h7-h5
14.Bf1-e2 Ng4xf2+
15.Qh4xf2 f4-f3
16.Be2xf3 Nd4xf3
17.Qf2xf3 Rh8-f8
18.Qf3-g3 Rf8-f1+
19.Kd1-e2 Bc8-g4+
20.Ke2-e3 Qd8xg5+
21.Ke3-d4 Ra8-d8+
22.Kd4-c4 Bg4-e6+

No, no, no, no, no. There are too many misses in your calculation. However, the position you have created, seems to lead to an enforced mate, so I understand why are you beign attracted... :D

In the above variation of yours:

After 15 Qf2: f3 , White simply plays
16. g2xf3 Kd4xe2
17. Kg1xe2 Qd8xg5
18. Qf2-d4 and prevents casteling queen side and threatens the rook at h8. After
18... Rh8-f8 (attacking f4)
19. f3-f4 ,

the black Queen can guard the pawn at h5 only at the cost of moving into inaction on the Queen'S side of the board (Qb5, Qa5), or delaying the loss only (Qg6, and White moves Qe5+ and double attack on h5) Both are bad options, with Black already being in a loosing position. So he has to give up the pawn:

19... Qg5-e7
20. Rh1xh5

White leads by 3 pawns, and his position is to be preferred, clearly so.



After 16 Bf3:, White will take back with the knight and stay much better than after Qf3:



17... Rf8 is a very huge mistake:
18. Qh5:+ (you oversaw that the check prevents black from moving Rf1+ and winning the Rook on a1?



Instead of your 19... Bg4+, better that mentioned Ra1:, becasue after 19... Bg4+ White decides the match by simply Kxf1. How did you come to Ke3 instead?


Here's why I didn't consider Qd8-d6 much;
13.Qg3-h4 Qd8-d6
14.Qh4-h5+ Ke8-d8
15.Qh5-h4, ????
16. g5-g6+
And this;
13.Qg3-h4 Qd8-d6
14.Qh4-h5+ Ke8-e7 or d8
15.Qh5-h4
Which doesn't look too good, imo.
Instead of those four ????, let Black move 15... Qb6 with counterthreat at b2, and later threat to a1 - or even mate-attack. Directly moving g6 and g7 is not an option for White. At least currently.



I discounted Bc8-e6 for similar reasons, I can still end up in check, and it isn't like that bishop is getting off that diagonal while the knight at g4 is there, which makes the move kind of pointless, I think.

13.Qg3-h4 Bc8-e6
14.Qh4-h5+ Ke8-f8
15.Qh5-h4
Not Kf8, but Kd7! Connects Rook h8 to the powergrid, and brings the king one move closer to a safe foxhole.


Another "ouch"
13.Qg3-h4 Qd8-d6
14.Bf1-e2 Ng4-e5
15.Qh4-h5+
See above, it is not as dramatic as you think. Instead of Ne5 you could also play Nd4xe2.

Now porphy:


But I think black has to look closer at white playing 14. g5xh5 (en passant) before going down the route of h7-h5. i leave that to you guys...


Black would try moves like Qd6, Qb6 and threaten to breach into b2. With that knight on d4 and a second close by, that could easily turn into a devastating mate-attack.


Question. Why would he do that? Black's response would almost certainly be Rh8xh6, no?

Qd6 is better, it gives black more potential for counter-threats, while after Rh6: the situation levels out and gives equal chances for both:

13 Qh4 h5
14 gh6:ep Rh6:
15 Qd8:+ Kd8:
16 Rh6: Nh6:

White has 3 free pawns more, while Black has a knight more. Sounds like a long, boring endgame.

I hate endgames, I am not good at them.

[UnderseaLcpl]

White 13. Qg3-h4
Black 13. Qd8-d6

Official move.

[Letum]

Qh4-h5 Check

[UnderseaLcpl]

Qh4-h5 Check

I knew it.

[Skybird]

He wages psychological warfare. Thus he plays the move you said you fear most. :sunny:

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6391/image1vo4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Five moves are possible. But only one is acceptable. You do not wish to block the Bishop. You do not wish to interrupt the mutual cover of the rooks once the bishop has moved. You still need your queen to threaten a counterattack, and eventually defend against the pawn'S flooding forward to seek transformation.

[Letum]

He wages psychological warfare. Thus he plays the move you said you fear most.
Nothing so clever. I get a little bored reading move analysis, so I don't. ;)

My next move is Ng1-h3, unless you block with your queen, in which case I will respond in turn.

[UnderseaLcpl]

He wages psychological warfare. Thus he plays the move you said you fear most. :sunny:

Do I fear it most? Maybe I am playing psychological warfare.:lol:


White 14. Qh4-h5+
Black 14. Ke8-e7

Official move

[Letum]

I had hoped your castling obsession might have caused you to block with the queen.
I would have exchanged queens and taken your rook.
No such luck with Sky around. ;)

Ng1-h3

[Skybird]

Lance,

patience and caution now, but no need to be afraid here - his march on the king'S side looks mstronger than it is. Do not be afraid of the pawn moving on the g-line. If you play correctly, the White Queen also cannot grab your king, she can only cause minor distraction currently, since she is alone and has no support. Remember what I said of counterattacking on the b-line. There are two knights in striking distance to the white king. Nothing hinders your Queen now to join them - on the b-line. Analyse variations leadinding into that direction. Your attack target should be b2.

However, your king is exposed, your initial advantage in space and time is gone and he has several pawns on free lines ready to march. Another mistake like 8... g5 probably will allow him to push his attack and to promote one pawn or go after your king, in other words: you may have run out of space for erros, the next one will cost you the match. The position is very open, there is room for maneuvering, and the board starts to become a bit emptier. A mistake now will allow White more options, probably.

Raise threats, and wait for his mistake. You have enough counterplay to neutralize his threats in return. Just don't do something stupid now. Raise threats.

I could swear that with the Queen and the two knights in that messy position, there is a mate in there, somehow, but it is still too far away as that I could see it.

In case you are nervous about the g-pawn moving, consider defences against promtoing that base on the old saying: the best defense is counterattack. I see some options to prevent that pawn promoting by not going after the pawn, but going after the king. If he must run, he can't aim (as long as he is no Leopard 2A6 MBT :lol:).

[UnderseaLcpl]

White 15. Ng1-h3
Black 15. Qd6-c6

Official move

edit- Avast! Ye white devils!

[UnderseaLcpl]

I had hoped your castling obsession might have caused you to block with the queen.
I would have exchanged queens and taken your rook.
No such luck with Sky around. ;)

Ng1-h3

I don't have a castling obsession. Sky and Porphy have a castling obsession.
I have a queen obsession, so there is no way I would ever do that, for precisely the reason you mentioned.;)

[Skybird]

White 15. Ng1-h3
Black 15. Qd6-c6

Official move

edit- Avast! Ye white devils!

What should Qc6? be good for? It does nothing for you, justs wastes one tempo. He now can prepare against attacking as described. Qb6 or Qb4 would have been the moves.

[UnderseaLcpl]

What should Qc6? be good for? It does nothing for you, justs wastes one tempo. He now can prepare against attacking as described.

It will work;)

[Letum]

Pc2-c3

[Skybird]

What should Qc6? be good for? It does nothing for you, justs wastes one tempo. He now can prepare against attacking as described.

It will work;)

Will it? Okay, show me. I wait and see.

[Skybird]

Pc2-c3
Uh, a worst case mistake. That allows Black to score what the army calls a "catastrophic hit" (it means that the turret of a tank flies a given minimum of meters up into the sky).

You lucky dog, Lance. :dead: You can't have forseen that White would make such a catastrophic move in reply to Qc6...

[UnderseaLcpl]

White 16. c2-c3
Black 16. Qc6-a4+

Official move.:yep:

[Skybird]

Yes, that kills White and decides the match.

However, Lance, Qc6 was weak. ;) You live by Letum's fault here.

[Letum]

*edit yet again*

[Letum]

OK, thats my resignation.

What a horrible cock-up that was at the end.

Good game.

[Skybird]

Thanks for playing in this experiment, Letum. ;) After c3, any further resistance indeed was completely futile. But you could have hoped for snookers and thus carrying on a bit, just to see if Lance really can exploit the breach?! After Qc6 and "It will work" I intended to let him play alone for a while, to let him show what it was that he thought would work... :lol:

[Letum]

Care for a real game Sky?

[Skybird]

Care for a real game Sky?
You and me? Sure. Rules as usual, in case of doubt or conflict standard correspondence chess rules. Books and literature are allowed. Computer assistance is not. Start a thread, I'm ready when you are.

[UnderseaLcpl]

OK, thats my resignation.

What a horrible cock-up that was at the end.

Good game.

Yes, good game to you as well. I look forward to seeing the match between you and Sky!

[UnderseaLcpl]

Yes, that kills White and decides the match.

However, Lance, Qc6 was weak. ;) You live by Letum's fault here.

No, I live by understanding Letum. I think it was you who said " show me how you play and I'll tell you who you are"

Admittedly, I probably couldn't have done it without help from you, Porphy and the rest of Team Subsim, but I have learned a little and I intend to apply what I have learned.

Thank you for your help. And thanks to Letum for the match.

I sincerely hope for a Letum vs. Skybird match. It would be good fun, and I would learn more about the art of chess.

[Letum]

You live by Letum's fault here.
No, I live by understanding Letum.


Not to mention by my grace on page 5 (or6?).

Here is an idea...
How about me and Sky post or PM why we are making each move in the match
somewhere where we can easily avoid reading each others motives.

It will make the match much, much more intresting and informative for UnderseaLcpl,
and any other spectators. Of course we would have to trust each other not to read
each other's motives and ask no one to suggest moves, point out mistakes etc.

[Skybird]

You live by Letum's fault here.
No, I live by understanding Letum.


Not to mention by my grace on page 5 (or6?).

Here is an idea...
How about me and Sky post or PM why we are making each move in the match
somewhere where we can easily avoid reading each others motives.

It will make the match much, much more intresting and informative for UnderseaLcpl,
and any other spectators. Of course we would have to trust each other not to read
each other's motives and ask no one to suggest moves, point out mistakes etc.

Three threads.

One "CHESS", where we just give the moves, and occasional position diagrams.

One "SECRETS LETUM", where Letum writes his thoughts and plans and hopes and fears, that I shall not visit before the match is over.

One "SECRETS SKYBIRD", that Letum shall not visit and where I explain my thoughts.

A bit tricky to keep track for observers, though.

So we post our moves twice. Once uncommented in the CHESS thread, and once with comments in the SECRETS threads.

Maybe a third person copies them together in a fourth thread. :lol:

And Neal has a fifth thread telling us what he thinks of all that posting madness! :rotfl:

[UnderseaLcpl]

You live by Letum's fault here.
No, I live by understanding Letum.


Not to mention by my grace on page 5 (or6?).

Here is an idea...
How about me and Sky post or PM why we are making each move in the match
somewhere where we can easily avoid reading each others motives.

It will make the match much, much more intresting and informative for UnderseaLcpl,
and any other spectators. Of course we would have to trust each other not to read
each other's motives and ask no one to suggest moves, point out mistakes etc.

I like the idea!:yep: I still have a lot to learn, and being able to watch you two play would help. The commentary would be even better:D

And yes, you are right that I also lived by your grace. :oops:


Thanks again to both of you and to Porphy, and to the rest of Team Subsim for helping me out, despite how boneheaded I was at times:88)