Next President of the United States

[Hylander_1314]

Obama supporters are getting scary!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy09UpI60F8
Well, he did say that there should be a "civilian defense force" with a budget as high as the militaries*. Maybe that's the beginning of it:o

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df2p6867_pw about 16:54

Hey DT, aren't we according to the 2nd Ammendment supposed to already have a civilian defence force? I think it was called the malitia. Every able bodied male between 18 and 45 is supposed to meet one weekend a month to drill. Also supply your own firearms, and supplies. If I remember correctly.

[Torps]

Obama supporters are getting scary!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy09UpI60F8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy09UpI60F8)



UM Can we say Hitler Youth for Obama?

[Digital_Trucker]

Hylander, not according to this interpretation

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/i/2ndamendment.htm

I believe the military has replaced the civilian militia (except in the case of the militia guarding our Southern borders).

[August]

Hylander, not according to this interpretation

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/i/2ndamendment.htm

I believe the military has replaced the civilian militia (except in the case of the militia guarding our Southern borders).
That site is outdated I believe. I didn't see the recent SC ruling on the DC hand gun ban.

And BTW the military is not the militia and without a constitutional amendment to that effect should not be considered as such.

[Hylander_1314]

Sounds like a lot of hogwash to me. A bunch of commie liberal tree hugger propaganda, except this set of lines,

The Constitution aside, bearing arms is a fundamental human right. It is the only means the American people have to reclaim control of their government, should it one day become irredeemably corrupt.

With the 2nd Ammendment, we at least have the right to stand up in a last great act in defiance in the face of tyranny.

[Sailor Steve]

I believe the military has replaced the civilian militia (except in the case of the militia guarding our Southern borders).
And I believe that idea would have terrified the founders. A standing army was the thing they feared the most. That it has become necessary in the modern world is all the more reason to retain our natural rights - all of them.

Might as well advocate the removal of the Third Amendment, since it is so outdated. After all, when was the last time the Government tried to make you let soldiers stay at your house?

[Digital_Trucker]

Well, the whole thing was brought up by the video showing the "obama youth brigade" and my reference to Obama's call for a civilian defense force with a budget as high as the militarys. Just for the record, I don't necessarily agree with the interpretation that the military replaces the civilian militia. I do ,however, wonder exactly what Obama was calling for and would like to hear an explanation of his statement (from him, of course):hmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, the whole thing was brought up by the video showing the "obama youth brigade" and my reference to Obama's call for a civilian defense force with a budget as high as the militarys. Just for the record, I don't necessarily agree with the interpretation that the military replaces the civilian militia. I do ,however, wonder exactly what Obama was calling for and would like to hear an explanation of his statement (from him, of course):hmm:

Great...another speech from the pulpit:down: Heard enough of those, how about something with some real answers and substance? That aspect for Obama is long over due.

[Von Tonner]

Tonights debate is probably the most crucial and important event in McCain's political career. With less than 30 days to go he is increasingly finding himself between a rock and a hard place. All Obama has to do is make sure he doesn't fluff a question or have too many "ers" and "ums". McCain on the other hand has to turn the tide on the below polls which would need nothing short of a knock-out punch to Obama tonight. I will be setting my alarm clock as it is an early rise to catch it live.


State Polling Roundup Ohio Polls Split A Fox News/Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/ohio/election_2008_ohio_presidential_election) automated poll of 1,000 likely Ohio voters taken October 5 shows McCain leading Obama 48%-47%. An ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/images/PollingUnit/1075a1Ohio08.pdf) /Washington Post poll of 891 registered Ohio voters, including 772 likely voters, taken October 3-5 shows Obama leading McCain 51%-43% among registered voters and 51%-45% among likely voters.
Obama Up 7 In Florida A Fox News/Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/florida/election_2008_florida_presidential_election) automated poll of 1,000 likely Florida voters taken October 5 shows Obama leading McCain 52%-45%.
Obama Up 3 In Missouri A Fox News/Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/missouri/election_2008_missouri_presidential_election) automated poll of 1,000 likely Missouri voters taken October 5 shows Obama leading McCain 50%-47%.
Obama Up 6 In Colorado A Fox News/Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/colorado/election_2008_colorado_presidential_election) automated poll of 1,000 likely Colorado voters taken October 5 shows Obama leading McCain 51%-45%.
Obama Up In 2 Virginia Polls A SurveyUSA (http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=00f2d8fb-6a3b-425d-9f27-21df796e8fe5) automated poll of 666 likely Virginia voters taken October 4-5 for a group of regional TV stations shows Obama leading McCain 53%-43%. A Fox News/Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/virginia/election_2008_virginia_presidential_election) automated poll of 1,000 likely Virginia voters taken October 5 shows Obama leading McCain 50%-48%.
Obama Up 13 In New Hampshire A SurveyUSA (http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=a8255cdc-82a4-4a10-8cf2-063b666e514c) automated poll 647 likely New Hampshire voters taken October 4-5 for WBZ-TV Boston shows Obama leading McCain 53%-40%.
Obama Up 6 In North Carolina A Public Policy Polling (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_NC_100625.pdf) (D) survey of 1,202 likely North Carolina voters taken October 4-5 shows Obama leading McCain 50%-44%.

[Hylander_1314]

Sounds a lot like the commie extermination armies that were / are used to terrorize the general public. Obama Youth Brigade? Hitler Youth? Hmmmmmmmmmm, I just don't like the idea of it. It's one of those I smell a rat feelings.

But hey, I could be completely off base, but the first thing dear old dad taught me was to never trust, and always question the government, and all the authorities from top to bottom.

One of his favorites was, "When fascism comes to America, it will be draped in the flag, and carrying a cross."

Don't know if this has been brought up, but there is a lot of controversy over it even though it's not making a big splash in the news.
http://www.alipac.us/ftopict-134286-obama.html

[Digital_Trucker]

I've been following that story on a different site and was wondering what the outcome was going to be. Will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Thanks for the link:up:

[AVGWarhawk]

Tonights debate is probably the most crucial and important event in McCain's political career. With less than 30 days to go he is increasingly finding himself between a rock and a hard place. All Obama has to do is make sure he doesn't fluff a question or have too many "ers" and "ums". McCain on the other hand has to turn the tide on the below polls which would need nothing short of a knock-out punch to Obama tonight. I will be setting my alarm clock as it is an early rise to catch it live.


State Polling Roundup Ohio Polls Split A Fox News/Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/ohio/election_2008_ohio_presidential_election) automated poll of 1,000 likely Ohio voters taken October 5 shows McCain leading Obama 48%-47%. An ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/images/PollingUnit/1075a1Ohio08.pdf) /Washington Post poll of 891 registered Ohio voters, including 772 likely voters, taken October 3-5 shows Obama leading McCain 51%-43% among registered voters and 51%-45% among likely voters.
Obama Up 7 In Florida A Fox News/Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/florida/election_2008_florida_presidential_election) automated poll of 1,000 likely Florida voters taken October 5 shows Obama leading McCain 52%-45%.
Obama Up 3 In Missouri A Fox News/Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/missouri/election_2008_missouri_presidential_election) automated poll of 1,000 likely Missouri voters taken October 5 shows Obama leading McCain 50%-47%.
Obama Up 6 In Colorado A Fox News/Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/colorado/election_2008_colorado_presidential_election) automated poll of 1,000 likely Colorado voters taken October 5 shows Obama leading McCain 51%-45%.
Obama Up In 2 Virginia Polls A SurveyUSA (http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=00f2d8fb-6a3b-425d-9f27-21df796e8fe5) automated poll of 666 likely Virginia voters taken October 4-5 for a group of regional TV stations shows Obama leading McCain 53%-43%. A Fox News/Rasmussen Reports (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/virginia/election_2008_virginia_presidential_election) automated poll of 1,000 likely Virginia voters taken October 5 shows Obama leading McCain 50%-48%.
Obama Up 13 In New Hampshire A SurveyUSA (http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=a8255cdc-82a4-4a10-8cf2-063b666e514c) automated poll 647 likely New Hampshire voters taken October 4-5 for WBZ-TV Boston shows Obama leading McCain 53%-40%.
Obama Up 6 In North Carolina A Public Policy Polling (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_NC_100625.pdf) (D) survey of 1,202 likely North Carolina voters taken October 4-5 shows Obama leading McCain 50%-44%.
A lot can happen in 30 days. A lot can happen in 30 seconds. Just watch a football game. It is not over yet. As of late, the Obama skeletons are coming out of the closet. Perhaps the big guns are being pulled out by the McCain campaign? I'm thinking yes. You watch, Palin is going to be the attack dog that VP's are supposed to be. She started this weekend. I find it odd that Rezko will not be arraigned until after the election. Does he know something? McCain/Palin just need to leave that taste of doubt in the voters minds. Hell, some still think Obama took the oath of office on the Koran. Now these very same folks hear he started his political career in a domestic terrorist livingroom. Some reports say America knows this already. I did not know this until yesterday. So, Obama was courting a known domestic terrorist that not only talked about bombing but actually carried it out. He got off on a technicality. Will Obama court other terrorists with big hugs from the White House. Bubba the beer drinker will not like that at all. The big gun of the Rev Wright debacle is not over yet either. Welcome to old age and treachery. There is a good possibility it will win out again.

[Tchocky]

If you call for violence in reaction to abortion, you get to go to lunch with President Ford.

And President Reagan.

And President George HW Bush.
I'd be interested in hearing the person or persons you're talking about here. Francis Schaeffer.

Do you think that Obama believes in the same things the Ayers does? And if so, are they Ayers ideas of the 2000's, when he was in contact with Obama, or are they the ideas of the 1970's, when Obama was eight years old?

An open question. What effect have Obama's interactions with Ayers had upon his political beliefs?
Surely this is the question that needs answering, not vague mumblings about "associations".

[August]

Francis Schaeffer.

Doh! I should have put that together.

Let me ask you though. Do you equal calling for violence the same as actually committing violence? That is after all the difference between Shaeffer and Ayers...

IMO both of them ought to be in jail.

[Tchocky]

Francis Schaeffer.

Doh! I should have put that together.

Let me ask you though. Do you equal calling for violence the same as actually committing violence? That is after all the difference between Shaeffer and Ayers...

IMO both of them ought to be in jail.
I was responding to your comments on Jeremiah Wright calling for violence, not Will Ayers.
The focus of Obama's associations, such as Wright and Ayers, have often left out the most obviously important part - the influence on the man running for President.

[August]

The focus of Obama's associations, such as Wright and Ayers, have often left out the most obviously important part - the influence on the man running for President.

That's the whole point of bringing up their associations. His 20 year association with Rev. Wright we know about and i'd venture to say that even you can hardly say that this is a trifle.

As for Ayers, Obama has known the guy for, what, almost a decade now? Maybe he doesn't share Ayers more radical agendas (neither does Ayers unless we should hear he's taken up planting bombs again) but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility they share ideology and that is something that shouldn't be swept under the party rug.

[Konovalov]

The focus of Obama's associations, such as Wright and Ayers, have often left out the most obviously important part - the influence on the man running for President.

That's the whole point of bringing up their associations. His 20 year association with Rev. Wright we know about and i'd venture to say that even you can hardly say that this is a trifle.

As for Ayers, Obama has known the guy for, what, almost a decade now? Maybe he doesn't share Ayers more radical agendas (neither does Ayers unless we should hear he's taken up planting bombs again) but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility they share ideology and that is something that shouldn't be swept under the party rug.
I would be highly concerned if Senator Obama shares the same kind of ideology as Ayers. So is there any evidence to suggest such an idea be they statements made by Obama or his voting record or anything else for that matter? If so I would love to see it. If not then all we have here is a classic case of guilt by association which should have no bearing on which way people vote. :hmm:

[baggygreen]

Here's a question.

If one candidate wants to fundamentally change the country, would a comment like that get a lot of people offside? Changing things is one thing, but at a fundamental level??

I was reading through an Aussie report of the latest debate and came across this snippet:

"In order to change the dynamics of this race, we anticipate that McCain will launch his nastiest attacks and continue to lie about Barack Obama's record and his vision to fundamentally change our country." - Bill Burton, Spokesman for Sen. Obama.

Exactly what is he looking to change... I've not seen any detailed plans, just plenty of sweeping statements without much information backing them up. That's from both sides, and common in politics, but what does he want to fundamentally change?!

[Fish]

Here's a question.

If one candidate wants to fundamentally change the country, would a comment like that get a lot of people offside? Changing things is one thing, but at a fundamental level??

I was reading through an Aussie report of the latest debate and came across this snippet:

"In order to change the dynamics of this race, we anticipate that McCain will launch his nastiest attacks and continue to lie about Barack Obama's record and his vision to fundamentally change our country." - Bill Burton, Spokesman for Sen. Obama.

Exactly what is he looking to change... I've not seen any detailed plans, just plenty of sweeping statements without much information backing them up. That's from both sides, and common in politics, but what does he want to fundamentally change?!

In the context:

John McCain is running out of time for a game-changing event. In the latest sign of desperation, his campaign admitted just yesterday that if they "keep talking about the economic crisis, they're going to lose." It's our view that the American people are already worried about losing – their homes, their jobs and their health care – and it's up to the candidates at this debate to demonstrate who is best equipped to make sure that they can get ahead again.

In order to change the dynamics of this race, we anticipate that McCain will launch his nastiest attacks and continue to lie about Barack Obama's record and his vision to fundamentally change our country. We don't know if McCain will continue his refusal to even look at Obama on stage -- like in their first debate -- but we fully expect that his "turn the page" strategy to ignore the economy will be seen in full view for 90 minutes of character attacks against Barack Obama.

The fact is, McCain has erratically been all over the map in recent weeks, telling Americans that the fundamentals of the economy are strong only days before claiming to suspend his campaign and warning of another depression. John McCain just doesn't get it. The American people aren't interested in nasty, false attacks, and they're not interested in four more years of Bush policies. But that's all he's offering.

If all he does is attack Barack Obama, as he's said he'll do, it will be yet another colossal missed opportunity. In the face of those attacks, Barack Obama will continue to offer steady leadership, and talk about his plan to give real relief to the middle class and create good jobs here in America.

When it comes to sheer format, we enter today's debate the decided underdog. John McCain does extremely well in town hall settings. It's been his favorite format throughout his career and we think that he will of course do very well. See below for more reviews of John McCain's town hall performances.

[Torps]

In 2006 when we wanted change, we elected a democratic congress. When they took office this is what they got elected into....

1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) the unemployment rate was 4.5%.
4) the DOW JONES hit a record high--14,000 +


Since this congress took over...


1) Consumer confidence has plummeted.
2) Gasoline is now over $3:30 a gallon & was beyond $4.30 a gallon at one point.
3) Unemployment is up to 5.8% (a 22% increase).
4) 4) the DOW JONES hit 9300 , lowest its been since Sept 11.
5) Record number of American homes are in foreclosure.

So we wanted change we got it!

[Konovalov]

In 2006 when we wanted change, we elected a democratic congress. When they took office this is what they got elected into....

1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) the unemployment rate was 4.5%.
4) the DOW JONES hit a record high--14,000 +


Since this congress took over...


1) Consumer confidence has plummeted.
2) Gasoline is now over $3:30 a gallon & was beyond $4.30 a gallon at one point.
3) Unemployment is up to 5.8% (a 22% increase).
4) 4) the DOW JONES hit a 9700 , lowest its been since Sept 11.
5) Record number of American homes are in foreclosure.

So we wanted change we got it!


Very convenient and misleading way that you have packaged it there. You guys can pin the blame on each other (left and right/Dems and Repubs) all you like. The brutal truth is that both parties have failed your country. Both sides have failed the test of bipartisan leadership. So who is going to have the balls to put aside such BS partisan hackery?

[AVGWarhawk]

In 2006 when we wanted change, we elected a democratic congress. When they took office this is what they got elected into....

1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) the unemployment rate was 4.5%.
4) the DOW JONES hit a record high--14,000 +


Since this congress took over...


1) Consumer confidence has plummeted.
2) Gasoline is now over $3:30 a gallon & was beyond $4.30 a gallon at one point.
3) Unemployment is up to 5.8% (a 22% increase).
4) 4) the DOW JONES hit a 9700 , lowest its been since Sept 11.
5) Record number of American homes are in foreclosure.

So we wanted change we got it!

Very convenient and misleading way that you have packaged it there. You guys can pin the blame on each other (left and right/Dems and Repubs) all you like. The brutal truth is that both parties have failed your country. Both sides have failed the test of bipartisan leadership. So who is going to have the balls to put aside such BS partisan hackery?

That will never happen. It is a pipe dream. All that we have seen in the past will continue on. It does not matter who is in the driver seat.

[Skybird]

Konovalov,

if I see one constant in american culture, then it is an irresistable tendency to polarize and to think in dualistic, always two antagonistic absolutes.

A historian or political analyst from the UK that I once saw on TV talking about this, said with a fine sense of humour: "The United States consists of exactly two states." :lol:

Damn right he was! And nicely put it he has!

[Hylander_1314]

The reason things don't change, is that instead of having a real choice as a two party system, although there is a third Independent party that is ignored by the press purposefully, but if you look at it reguardless, it really isn't two parties, it's a single party with two heads. And until the people consolidate and really strive for change in the elected leadership, it is going to continue to be business as usual.

[Torps]

And that is a fact. George Washington was not a member of any party, he did not like the idea of having political parties. They knew back then there would be problems down the road.

Another problem is voters dont vote out the worst and most corrupt, why? They (incumbents) have to much power. The Republicans under Bush for 6 years abused there power and know the Democrats want there share. This Democratic congress is probably the worst in history and the Republicans before them were down right nasty and not much better.

And btw, for the first time in history europe did something together, lower interest rates. Not bad.

The thing is we defended europe during the coldwar and during that time there was a unspoke rule. The european strategy going back into the 80s was to surpass the US economically, while we spent our money on there defense they could work on there economy. Well it worked, the Euro know is worth more then the dollar. When dollar went down in value, purchases went down, production went down. So ultimately the plan worked to surpass the US, but it has back fired, the US matters more then you like. Unless europe overtakes the US in spending and purchasing the Euro cannot be worth more then dollar, that is why we are here today aswell.

[Sailor Steve]

And that is a fact. George Washington was not a member of any party, he did not like the idea of having political parties. They knew back then there would be problems down the road.
Very true, and it drives me crazy when I see Washington labelled as a member of the Federalist Party. He was a federalist in the same way Adams and Madison were - he saw the necessity for a stronger central government. And yet - and this is the only bad thing I've ever had to say about him - he sat and watched as his two leading cabinet members squabbled and fought and laid the foundations for the first parties, and then let Hamilton railroad him into following Federalist policies.

Likewise Adams. He's called a Federalist as well, because they got him elected, but they turned on him when he ignored them and followed his own path (and wisely so), and it was them who got him unelected again.

I hate parties. Unfortunately the parties are the only ones with the money and the organization to actually get their people into positions of power.

[Hylander_1314]

Biggest problem is, they have too much power. The power gained by the Fed during the FDR administration should be removed and the states returned to their rightful positions. With more power than the Fed.

A good book out recently about the era is this one.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sOCIHAAACAAJ&dq=the+forgotten+man

I started reading it last year, but my daughter borrowed it for school, and her teacher borrowed it, and I never saw it again. So I need a new copy, but just haven't gotten around to it yet.

But to me, no political party or force is supposed to be that strong in the US of A as it creates a imbalance in the proportion of power that the founding fathers were all too well aware of, and they took every step to avoid having it happen to their creation of the republic. But eventually corruption and self-ambitious men will alter and twist even that which is meant to stop them, and they will turn it to their advantage by interpretation instead of direct definition.

[Type941]

As great John McCain said the other day, "Well, my fellow prisoners..."



I voted in the this poll that McCain-Palin will win because it asked WHO I THINK will win.

I think they will win because:

1. it's the undecided voters who decide the election and they seem to be quite easily swayed by "bumper sticker" politics, and not by real issus. GOP are masters of that.
2. GOP have shown in the past 8 years they are ready to do whatever it takes to stay in power. In event of it looking like Obama is gonna take it I won't be surprised that Bush 'suspends election in time of financial crisis', or makes current crisis 'worse' to come to that. I wouldn't be surprised if they start a war on Iran. I would not be surprised by them doing anything that would seem like elections shouldn't be held right now.
3. Palin is has reignated the scary mix of bigotry-high school mentality in many voters. Thes guys are energized and will go and vote.

just look here! This is at one of their rallies in Ohio. Thanks sarah palin for bringing out the best in amerika! say it aint' so joe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjxzmaXAg9E

4. Personal attacks on Obama will take toll on election day - they will play the race card without ever calling it so ('he's a muslim, he's terrorist friend -- well that's enough, eh?)
5. Even reasonable people will be scared off into thinking 'yeah, obama is good but mccain is experience and we need that' and will vote anyway for mccain even though deep down they like obama more may be.


Bottom line.. US won't elect obama cuz he's black. You may say all you like about this is not about race, but while may be people in 20s and 30s have moved on, people in 60s I don't think did (in places where news dont get much to, i.e. central part of US, all the Idaho's and Wyomings).

The guy is very good, he is smart. And yet he is struggling to beat what essentially is an old, senile, angry and impulsive man and a manipulative radical bitch.

It sickens me to my stomach that Palin will be a 72 year olds heart beat away from presidence. I am scared of this woman. She is a disgrace to america and a testament of its public education system. If i could vote, I'd be on a phone, calling everyone and making sure that these war mongers and racist in face of McCain and Palin don't ever get to white house.

In fact, I think neither of them are fit to be filling up the seats they take right now. Palin is a jew hating radical as seen in her videos in her church, while McCain i think is just mentally not there anymore.

Obama and Biden have their issues, but OMG they are at least qualified to do the job. McCain needs to go into retirement, Palin needs to go coach little league.

[Tchocky]

while McCain i think is just mentally not there anymore.

it's not that he's "not there"anymore, i don't think.
He's definitely "there" - but it's a different "there" than his media image would tell us.

I believe that he sees war as a first-line instrument instead of a resource, I see his ideas on foreign policy couched in a phase of terminal adolescence, and his almost total disinterest towards domestic policy makes the stuff he does care about that much scarier.

[Type941]

http://outtheotherear.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/now-i-know-im-not-crazy/

This is America Michele Obama was ashamed of. Fack if I knew that mojority of USA is like THIS, then I'd say they deserve McCain/Palin.

if you watch this you'll think its some nazi germany or smth.

[AVGWarhawk]

http://outtheotherear.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/now-i-know-im-not-crazy/

This is America Michele Obama was ashamed of. Fack if I knew that mojority of USA is like THIS, then I'd say they deserve McCain/Palin.

if you watch this you'll think its some nazi germany or smth.

You have to realize this country is full of Joe Six Packs who do not look deeper. We have to look at Obama associates. As the Ayers story unfolds, it is brushed under the carpet. Rev Wright, brushed under the carpet. Come on, 20 years in the church and he was not aware that Rev Wright was like this? Sure. Rezko...I believe there is more to this story. Are you sure this is the America that Michele was ashamed of or was it Rev Wrights 1960 view of white America that was pumped from the pulpit?

Look for some footage of the Democrates outside the Rep National Convention. You will see the other side of America and perhaps that is what Michele Obama is ashamed of. The Democrates are not shinning examples of Democracy either. Each has their nut case.

Look at yourself a few posts back. You said McCain is an old man who should just retire. Obama will not get the nod because he is black. There are other forms of racism other than skin color. Fingering McCain as just an old crow best to fad away is another form of racism. So, what does America really deserve? A person with some very questionable associates or some old coot who fought a war or two, has been in the goverment for 26 years?


I find it amazing that McCain put a proposal out on the table for the housing crisis. Obama has done nothing and it is regretable that Obama has not acknowledged that McCain is attempting to address the problem. Thus far, we have yet another speech from Obama. Speechs to not run the country.

[Tchocky]

You have to realize this country is full of Joe Six Packs who do not look deeper. We have to look at Obama associates. As the Ayers story unfolds, it is brushed under the carpet. Rev Wright, brushed under the carpet.
Are you mad? THese stories have gotten a lot of coverage. How exactly have they been brushed under the carpet?

Look at yourself a few posts back. You said McCain is an old man who should just retire. Obama will not get the nod because he is black. There are other forms of racism other than skin color. Fingering McCain as just an old crow best to fad away is another form of racism. What? Ageism is another form of racism all of a sudden?
So, what does America really deserve? A person with some very questionable associates or some old coot who fought a war or two, has been in the goverment for 26 years?
You speak as if McCain has never seen a disreputable person.
Liddy.
Parsley.
Hagee.
Keating.


I find it amazing that McCain put a proposal out on the table for the housing crisis.
He's put up a plan that is illegal under TARP. WHich he suspended his campaign to work on.
His plan means the Government will buy mortgages at face value. TARP Section 101E says - "take such steps as may be necessary to prevent unjust enrichment of financial institutions participating in a program established under this section....including by preventing the sale of a troubled asset to the Secretary at a higher price than what the seller paid to purchase the asset." Any loan that is not held by the originator, and the vast majority loans are not, would fall under this provision."

And he's been running around taking credit for TARP's taxpayer protection features.
Hah.

I would also mention the since McCain brought up this idea at the debate he has been silent about it.
Ordering a spending freeze with one hand, and on the other advocating that the government buy up every troubled mortage in America.
No wonder he hasn't mentioned it.

[AVGWarhawk]

Tchocky,

No, not mad. The first time I heard of Ayers was just last week. I'm just one of millions.

Age, yes, people are biased because of McCains age. They have him as dead, cancer riddled or has alzheimers. It is a form of racism just as color, association or lineage has been a form of racism for years.

I never said McCain does not have skeletons. However, we are seeing more skeletons with Obama. His skeletons are more concerning to me than McCains.

The plan under TARP might be illegal but HUD used to do this years ago before it was abolished. I know, HUD purchased my mortgage 10 years ago. I paid the government reduced rates for 6 months. I got my finances in line and then my mortgage was sold to a mortgage company. It works if it is handled in the correct way. That home I made a rental property and purchased another home that I live in now. Subsequently I sold the first house and made a nice profit. So, is McCain really on the wrong track here? Is Obama even on the track or is he having another speech?

Sure, McCain is silent about it. Currently, like Obama, he is running a campaign. Obama has been silent about the housing problem, period.

[Tchocky]

No, not mad. The first time I heard of Ayers was just last week. I'm just one of millions. I first heard about Ayers' connections to Obama (and they really are the most tenuous links) over a year ago, and filed them away as nothing to be concerned about.
I am surprised that an American citizen hasn't heard of this by now. Why do you believe that the Rev Wright story has been "brushed under the carpet"? It was one of the defining moments of Obama's campaign.

Age, yes, people are biased because of McCains age. They have him as dead, cancer riddled or has alzheimers. It is a form of racism just as color, association or lineage has been a form of racism for years. You do not understand what the word racism means.

I never said McCain does not have skeletons. However, we are seeing more skeletons with Obama. His skeletons are more concerning to me than McCains. You've mentioned three of Obama's, I've mentioned four of McCains, and that was without pausing to think heavily.

I'm going to repost my question from earlier in the thread.

Still, the question that logically follows from all of this is - has Ayers' thinking seriously affected the political beliefs of Barack Obama? The answer I can see is that if we are talking about the work of the Woods Fund, possibly. Poverty relief forms a plank in Obama's policy statements. If we are talking about the Weathermen, and the actions of the 1970's, then they have not. Obama has specifically rejected this idea, as have people like Michael Kinsley, certainly no friend of Ayers.
Do you believe that through their limited interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama%E2%80%93Ayers_controversy#Interaction_betwee n_Obama_and_Ayers), Ayers has instructed Obama in the methods that he himself has rejected?

The plan under TARP might be illegal ...So, is McCain really on the wrong track here? He is, if he is proposing a plan that is illegal under the last plan he signed off on, and pats himself on the back for doing so.

Obama has been silent about the housing problem, period.
:-? Really? Half of the debates have been dominated by the financial crisis, which in turn has been kicked off by the subprime mess.

[August]

[quote]Age, yes, people are biased because of McCains age. They have him as dead, cancer riddled or has alzheimers. It is a form of racism just as color, association or lineage has been a form of racism for years. You do not understand what the word racism means.

You're right Tchocky, it's not racism, it's age discrimination and it's discrimination against people with disabilities which are just as illegal.

the Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA), which protects individuals who are 40 years of age or older;
Title I and Title V of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA), which prohibit employment discrimination against qualified individuals with disabilities in the private sector, and in state and local governments;
Sections 501 and 505 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, which prohibit discrimination against qualified individuals with disabilities who work in the federal government.http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html

[Tchocky]

Yar.

A tad wary of discussing McCain's age. The tendency to overreact is quite string whden there's an -ism just waiting to be mentioned.
Ageism is unacceptable. Refusing to recognise that McCain's age is relevant is also unacceptable. Especially for a man who has been through what he has.

[August]

Yar.

A tad wary of discussing McCain's age. The tendency to overreact is quite string whden there's an -ism just waiting to be mentioned.
Ageism is unacceptable. Refusing to recognise that McCain's age is relevant is also unacceptable. Especially for a man who has been through what he has.

Actually the Democrats age bigotry is probably hurting them more than the media will tell you. After all the AARP (American Association of Retired Persons) is one of the largest and most powerful special interest group in the country and they've never taken kindly to such things.

Remember old people vote a lot more regularly than young people...

[AVGWarhawk]

No, not mad. The first time I heard of Ayers was just last week. I'm just one of millions. I first heard about Ayers' connections to Obama (and they really are the most tenuous links) over a year ago, and filed them away as nothing to be concerned about.
I am surprised that an American citizen hasn't heard of this by now. Why do you believe that the Rev Wright story has been "brushed under the carpet"? It was one of the defining moments of Obama's campaign.

Yes, it has been brushed under the carpet. Defining? How? Here is a guy who sits for 20 years in front of Rev Wright but knows nothing of his sermons. Stop sniffing glue. Obama outright lied.

Age, yes, people are biased because of McCains age. They have him as dead, cancer riddled or has alzheimers. It is a form of racism just as color, association or lineage has been a form of racism for years. You do not understand what the word racism means.
You see it as black and white only.

I never said McCain does not have skeletons. However, we are seeing more skeletons with Obama. His skeletons are more concerning to me than McCains. You've mentioned three of Obama's, I've mentioned four of McCains, and that was without pausing to think heavily.

No need, if this was really an issue for McCain, it would have been looked at much deeper long ago. For 26 years, McCains record is not that bad.

I'm going to repost my question from earlier in the thread.

Still, the question that logically follows from all of this is - has Ayers' thinking seriously affected the political beliefs of Barack Obama? The answer I can see is that if we are talking about the work of the Woods Fund, possibly. Poverty relief forms a plank in Obama's policy statements. If we are talking about the Weathermen, and the actions of the 1970's, then they have not. Obama has specifically rejected this idea, as have people like Michael Kinsley, certainly no friend of Ayers.
Do you believe that through their limited interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama%E2%80%93Ayers_controversy#Interaction_betwee n_Obama_and_Ayers), Ayers has instructed Obama in the methods that he himself has rejected?

Answer: Birds of a feather flock together. Do you think Rev Wright had not influence on Obama either? The man officiated his wedding. Take the blinders off.


The plan under TARP might be illegal ...So, is McCain really on the wrong track here? He is, if he is proposing a plan that is illegal under the last plan he signed off on, and pats himself on the back for doing so.

Obama has been silent about the housing problem, period. :-? Really? Half of the debates have been dominated by the financial crisis, which in turn has been kicked off by the subprime mess.

Final note:

Half of his debate was not providing how he plans on correcting the problem. The conversation we were conducting concerned taking care of the housing crisis which is just one part of the whole crisis. Again, I have not heard anything from Obama other than rhetoric. There is more to the crisis other than the subprime mess. The subprime mess spurned the crisis, surely. Once started, other issues introduced themselves. Really, Tchocky, what has Obama said about the immediate correction of foreclosing homes? I have heard McCains possible plan. Obama? Oh, yes, another speech fear mongering another 4 years of Bush.

Personally Tchocky, I think both candidates will have one crappy time getting this corrected. Neither will come out smelling like roses. Personally, I do not know why any one of them wants the job. In my heart of hears I think Obama is very determined and bright. However, I have to look at experience also. Each has their own reasons for candidate selection.

[AVGWarhawk]

In all reality gents..............the people and the media will turn on either one that get into the White House. After 4 years, they will be considered no better than Bush. So who cares.

[Digital_Trucker]

In all reality gents..............the people and the media will turn on either one that get into the White House. After 4 years, they will be considered no better than Bush. So who cares.

You really think it'll take 4 years?:D

[AVGWarhawk]

In all reality gents..............the people and the media will turn on either one that get into the White House. After 4 years, they will be considered no better than Bush. So who cares.
You really think it'll take 4 years?:D
The day after Obama is sworn in on the Koran, ur, Bible, ur, Wall Street Journal, ur....takes the oath of office under the Constitution of the, ur, Article of Confederation, ur, ....says I do in sickness and health....will all the world and media turn like pit bulls on a kitten smuthered in BBQ sause.

[Tchocky]

No, not mad. The first time I heard of Ayers was just last week. I'm just one of millions. I first heard about Ayers' connections to Obama (and they really are the most tenuous links) over a year ago, and filed them away as nothing to be concerned about.
I am surprised that an American citizen hasn't heard of this by now. Why do you believe that the Rev Wright story has been "brushed under the carpet"? It was one of the defining moments of Obama's campaign.

Yes, it has been brushed under the carpet. Defining? How? Here is a guy who sits for 20 years in front of Rev Wright but knows nothing of his sermons. Stop sniffing glue. Obama outright lied.
It was one of the major news stories of the primary campaign, probably the second most covered after his defeat of Clinton. It got endless airtime nationally. Obama made a major speech about it. That is not being brushed under the carpet.
Age, yes, people are biased because of McCains age. They have him as dead, cancer riddled or has alzheimers. It is a form of racism just as color, association or lineage has been a form of racism for years. You do not understand what the word racism means.
You see it as black and white only. Yes, because black and white are both races. Discriminating on the basis of race is racism.
Old people are not a separate race.
Listen to August.

I never said McCain does not have skeletons. However, we are seeing more skeletons with Obama. His skeletons are more concerning to me than McCains. You've mentioned three of Obama's, I've mentioned four of McCains, and that was without pausing to think heavily.

No need, if this was really an issue for McCain, it would have been looked at much deeper long ago.
Why do you trust so much? Why do you care so little about McCain's past and so much about Obama's?
In your last post you complain about the media, yet here you're saying that if there was anything seriously awry, you'd know about it by now?

Familiarise yourself with the Keating Five.
G Gordon Liddy - Planned to kill journalists, advised listeners to kill ATF agents, Watergate, planned to firebomb the Brookings Institute in DC.
"I'm proud of you, I'm proud of your family... It's always a pleasure for me to come on your program, Gordon, and congratulations on your continued success and adherence to the principles and philosophies that keep our nation great.
Rod Parsley - Believes America was founded in order to destroy Islam
one of the truly great leaders in America, a moral compass, a spiritual guide.

I'm going to repost my question from earlier in the thread.

Still, the question that logically follows from all of this is - has Ayers' thinking seriously affected the political beliefs of Barack Obama? The answer I can see is that if we are talking about the work of the Woods Fund, possibly. Poverty relief forms a plank in Obama's policy statements. If we are talking about the Weathermen, and the actions of the 1970's, then they have not. Obama has specifically rejected this idea, as have people like Michael Kinsley, certainly no friend of Ayers.
Do you believe that through their limited interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama%E2%80%93Ayers_controversy#Interaction_betwee n_Obama_and_Ayers), Ayers has instructed Obama in the methods that he himself has rejected?

Answer: Birds of a feather flock together. Do you think Rev Wright had not influence on Obama either? The man officiated his wedding. Take the blinders off. Birds of a feather. Do you consider Obama's limited interactions with Ayers to be flocking?
I suppose you'll include the Mayor and Governor of Chicago in this as well, considering that they have had much more contact with Ayers than Obama? Are they "birds of a feather" as well?
I didn't even mention Rev Wright in this question.
Maybe Obama has picked up something from a former Marine who was part of Lyndon Johnson's medical team. The same way he could have picked something up from a terrorist now active in Chicago school reform. I'm not defending Wright, I think he's a publicity-mad guy, but you have to realise there are many sides to every person.

Yes or no - Do you believe that through their limited interactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama%E2%80%93Ayers_controversy#Interaction_betwee n_Obama_and_Ayers), Ayers has instructed Obama in the methods that he himself has rejected?

Again, I have not heard anything from Obama other than rhetoric. Have you sat around and waited for TV to tell you? Because that doesn't always work. Sometimes you have to go out there and actually inform yourself about your own country.
There is more to the crisis other than the subprime mess. The subprime mess spurned the crisis, surely. Once started, other issues introduced themselves. Of course, there are a lot of things going on. but the genesis of most of these problems was the incorrect perception of ever-increasing house prices, the easy credit resulting from this perception, and the corresponding bad loans.
Really, Tchocky, what has Obama said about the immediate correction of foreclosing homes?
Argued for greater taxpayer protection in the Paulson plan
Will introduce a mortgage tax credit
Will introduce a standardised measure for the cost of loans
New criminal penalties for mortgage fraud in the subprime industry.
This took me about 7 seconds to discover.

Neither man will take office until January - they can do nothing about the immediate correction of foreclosing homes.

[Konovalov]

After 4 years, they will be considered no better than Bush. So who cares.
Have you ever entertained the thought that the next President could be worse than the current one? ;)

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes...another major speech about it. Seems to be Obama method of operation. Have a speech and all is peachy. Tchocky, Palin has gotten more of a body cavity search than Obama every has. Rev Wright has been silenced. If everyone is so splendid with it, why is not Wright never heard from again? Why did Obama and Wright leave in different directions? Does Obama still attend this church? Sorry, Tchocky, Obama got a bye on this one. Wright has been silenced and brushed under the carpet. He also retired to his multi-million dollar home.

Again, you see racism as black and white. Maybe you listen to August to much.


Why do I care about McCain past so little? I would say if they had any real damning evidence on McCain, after 26 years, they should have figure it out. We have more stories opening daily on Obama. Most of them a bit more dis-stressing then Keating 5. Gordon Liddy, talk about seriously old news. Again, if there was anything to pin on McCain, it would have been done years ago.

Do I consider Obama flocking with Ayers? Well, gee, they had Obama's Senate kick off in his living room. Gosh, they are not just flocking, they were nesting as well. As far as the Mayor and others in Chicago, yes, flocking. Do you believe corruption is not at this local government level? Get a clue. Why are you so trusting of Obama? You have entered the world of the lemings with accepting everything Obama has done in his past.

Yes or no on influence from Ayers? Yes, of course he was influenced. You do not sit in someones living room and just decide to run for Senate over eating peanuts. You are talking to people who are bolstering you to run and proding you on. What, Ayers was busy making a platter of pigs in a blanket. IT WAS THE KICK OFF PARTY!


Sorry Tchocky, I do not wait for the TV. I read CNN, MSNBC, CNN, Politico and FOX on the internet. So, for someone in the ruins of Europe you have the colossal gall to tell me to read up on my own country? When you become a concerned tax payer here the states, we will continue this conversation. In the meantime, you may continue to worship the chosen one! Enjoy it today because when he gets in the world and media will turn on him. They will turn on McCain. In short, Obama who you seem to so much love will not turn this around.


Your seven seconds of discovery are not new for Obama and not some sort of vision in the night for Obama. These avenues have been discussed before. It is a shame that you seems to think all of the crisis is somehow on Bush's shoulders. Sadly, it started in the Clinton administration.

[AVGWarhawk]

After 4 years, they will be considered no better than Bush. So who cares. Have you ever entertained the thought that the next President could be worse than the current one? ;)

:o Good point.

Somehow I feel like we are on a rudderless ship on the voyage to nowhere.

[Type941]

I think that McCain here was defended unfairly.

1. He is old. US senators don't seem to have an age limit and serve till death, sex scandal or voluntarily retirment it seems, to put it bluntly. Judging by quality of McCain's arguments, it's obvious he is just getting a bit old to be a president of USA. He's just fine to be a good old uncle, grandpa, run a hardware store even. But Senator or President? I think it's bit too much for him already, and in 4 years it will be way too much. I wouldn't even care THAT much about his age had he picked a decent VP. But he has an idiot with IQ of 83 and SAT score of 850 or whatever it was. That crazy bitch scares the bejezus out of me, i kid you not.

2. McCain has experience? Sure he does. By virtue of his age. but his history is full of black spots. He is not a maverick (although it's nice to see people actually buying into this crap, haha). The guy has been there for so long that he is Washington insider to the dot. Hence, another minus.

3. He is not a hero in general sense of a word. He is a war vet, from Vietnam. Yes, he refused to be released when had the chance. that's commendable. But he also broke down under tortures, signed all confessions, participated in propoganda film, was an erratic pilot (much worse then Bush!) and leaned on his daddy whenever things got tough. I'm sorry, but there are different kind of heroes from Vietnam, even ones who didn't break down, ones who still returned, and ones who are MODEST about it. McCain uses his vietnam experience to the fullest and milking it every second he gets and hides behind it whenever on the spot. In one word, McCain I think is just a coward. The word HERO is overused when applied to McCain. But this is part of general US propoganda, its' same in every country, all soldiers are heroes, etc. But if we are realistic, that's not the case and let's be frank - Vietnam war isn't exactly finest moment in US history, neither like IRAQ. But those guys shouldnt be blamed for it, instead the governemtn should be.

4. Yes, Obama is not great, no politician is squeeky clean. but the way he is now demonized by republicans is sickening.
Anyway, someone needs to take the hit and blame for this collapse of financial markets. And it should be GOP. They can't fix this. May be neither can Obama, but he deserves a chance. McCain doesn't. He had his chances for almost 30 years. No thanks.

[AVGWarhawk]

Bring up the age argument with Reagan.

Yes, Barney Frank should be patted on the back for his good job with the mortgage banking issue. The GOP should take it all in the shorts. Both are at fault.


I'm not enamored with either of them. Right now I do not think it is the time to "give Obama a chance". This is not little league.

[Konovalov]

Rod Parsley - Believes America was founded in order to destroy Islam
one of the truly great leaders in America, a moral compass, a spiritual guide.
Rod Parsley has a long record of extreme beliefs all of which were out there in the public domain well before either Parsleys destroy Islam comments and McCain saying what a great leader, moral compass, and spiritual guide that Parsley was. I guess that calls into question McCains judgement.

[Skybird]

'The United States Has Essentially a One-Party System':

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-583454,00.html

Quite some truths the man is telling.

(...)Consumption distracts people. You cannot control your own population by force, but it can be distracted by consumption. (...) James Madison’s position at the Constitutional Convention was that state power should be used "to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority." That is why the Senate has only a hundred members who are mostly rich and were given a great deal of power. The House of Representatives, with several hundred members, is more democratic and was given much less power. Even liberals like Walter Lippmann, one of the leading intellectuals of the 20th century, was of the opinion that in a properly functioning democracy, the intelligent minority, who should rule, have to be protected from “the trampling and the roar of the bewildered herd.” (...) The European reaction to Obama is a European delusion. (...) This whole election campaign deals with soaring rhetoric, hope, change, all sorts of things, but not with issues. (...) One must not forget that this country was founded by religious fanatics. Since Jimmy Carter, religious fundamentalists play a major role in elections. He was the first president who made a point of exhibiting himself as a born again Christian. That sparked a little light in the minds of political campaign managers: Pretend to be a religious fanatic and you can pick up a third of the vote right away. (...) Of course there are differences, but they are not fundamental. Nobody should have any illusions. The United States has essentially a one-party system and the ruling party is the business party (...) Let us look at the “differences” more closely, and we recognize how limited and cynical they are. The hawks say, if we continue we can win. The doves say, it is costing us too much. But try to find an American politician who says frankly that this aggression is a crime: the issue is not whether we win or not, whether it is expensive or not. Remember the Russian invasion of Afghanistan? Did we have a debate whether the Russians can win the war or whether it is too expensive? This may have been the debate at the Kremlin, or in Pravda. But this is the kind of debate you would expect in a totalitarian society. If General Petraeus could achieve in Iraq what Putin achieved in Chechnya, he would be crowned king. The key question here is whether we apply the same standards to ourselves that we apply to others. (...) The intellectual world is deeply conformist. Hans Morgenthau, who was a founder of realist international relations theory, once condemned what he called “the conformist subservience to power” on the part of the intellectuals. George Orwell wrote that nationalists, who are practically the whole intellectual class of a country, not only do not disapprove of the crimes of their own state, but have the remarkable capacity not even to see them. That is correct. We talk a lot about the crimes of others. When it comes to our own crimes, we are nationalists in the Orwellian sense. (...)

[CCIP]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7662820.stm

Now let's see if this gets spun into a large scandal (and I'm sure the Obama camp will latch onto this like pitbulls). Either way, the ship named Palin seems to be starting to sink...

[Skybird]

So far I have not voted on the presidential poll, I thought so far it could not have been forseen who would make it. But now I did. With the economic crisis, his passive role during the presidential meeting on the crisis, the Palin debacle now all picking at his reputation, while time is running out, the campaign of his side having turned into a smear, him alreaedy trailing behind in key states, I think McCain will not make it - and it is good that way.

However, Obama nevertheless will be a hasrh awakening for us europeans, he is vastly misinterpreted here as somebody who will not stand for america first - and that most likely will turn out to be wrong. While communication maybe will be more civil and polite with him, I'm sure he will give us headaches on many issues.

I understood the poll to be on whom we see most likely to win - not whom we desire to win. Seen that way I give Obama 60:40 chances. Voting I would not for any of the two.

And Palin, well, she is not more than a well-dressed girlie with narcissistic amibitions and an ice-cold smile hiding the huge vaccum behind her face. Back into the snake-pit where your crawled out of, super-mommy. :down:

[Tchocky]

Rev Wright has been silenced. If everyone is so splendid with it, why is not Wright never heard from again? Why did Obama and Wright leave in different directions? Does Obama still attend this church? No, he left the church at the end of May. Why can't you find this out for yourself?
If you care so much about Obama's associations, then you might at least go to the bother of familiarising yourself with the basic facts.
Sorry, Tchocky, Obama got a bye on this one. Wright has been silenced and brushed under the carpet. He also retired to his multi-million dollar home. Yeah, they should really take his home away from him now. nevermind this free speech rubbish.

Again, you see racism as black and white. Maybe you listen to August to much. I see discrimination on the basis of somebody's race as racism.
I see discrimination on the basis of someone's age to be ageism.

How do you not get this?


Why do I care about McCain past so little? I would say if they had any real damning evidence on McCain, after 26 years, they should have figure it out.
Who is this "they"?
We have more stories opening daily on Obama. OK, mention one new story from this past week. The fact that you have been unaware of Bill Ayers until now does not make it new. It was brought up by Hillary Clinton in a debate in February
Most of them a bit more dis-stressing then Keating 5. Gordon Liddy, talk about seriously old news. The Keating Five scandal concluded in November 1991.
By this standard the Ayers connection is also old news. or do you have a different standard for Obama?
How is associating with someone who believes that Hitler was a messenger of God more distressing?
Again, if there was anything to pin on McCain, it would have been done years ago. So Hagee and Parsley are old news?

Do I consider Obama flocking with Ayers? Well, gee, they had Obama's Senate kick off in his living room. Gosh, they are not just flocking, they were nesting as well.Nesting?

"It was later in 1995 that Mr. Ayers and Ms. Dohrn hosted the gathering, in their town house three blocks from Mr. Obama’s home, at which State Senator Alice J. Palmer, who planned to run for Congress, introduced Mr. Obama to a few Democratic friends as her chosen successor. That was one of several such neighborhood events as Mr. Obama prepared to run, said A. J. Wolf, the 84-year-old emeritus rabbi of KAM Isaiah Israel Synagogue, across the street from Mr. Obama’s current house.

“If you ask my wife, we had the first coffee for Barack,” Rabbi Wolf said.

Here's a decent article on the connections between the two men - http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/us/politics/04ayers.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

As far as the Mayor and others in Chicago, yes, flocking. Do you believe corruption is not at this local government level? Get a clue.
Who said anything about corruption? The Mayor and Ayers worked together on school reform.

Maybe the schools will all explode someday and I'll be wrong.

Yes or no on influence from Ayers? Yes, of course he was influenced. You do not sit in someones living room and just decide to run for Senate over eating peanuts. You are talking to people who are bolstering you to run and proding you on. What, Ayers was busy making a platter of pigs in a blanket. IT WAS THE KICK OFF PARTY! OK, like I said in my previous question, do you believe this influence to be of the 1970's or 1990's variety? Bombing or books?
Do you believe that they sat around talking about the Weathermen, or the projects that they were both involved in and interested in, like school reform?

Sorry Tchocky, I do not wait for the TV. I read CNN, MSNBC, CNN, Politico and FOX on the internet. So, for someone in the ruins of Europe you have the colossal gall to tell me to read up on my own country? When you become a concerned tax payer here the states, we will continue this conversation. Well, I've still got some things to say above. You don't have to respond.


Your seven seconds of discovery are not new for Obama and not some sort of vision in the night for Obama.
You completely misunderstand me.
You said - Obama has been silent on this issue.
It took me seven seconds to discover that this is not the case.
It wasn't some Road to Damascus conversion, it was a demonstration of basic research.

These avenues have been discussed before. It is a shame that you seems to think all of the crisis is somehow on Bush's shoulders. Sadly, it started in the Clinton administration.
You're inventing things out of thin air here. Nowhere in my posts above did I mention Bush. Or indeed discuss the political responsibility for this crisis.
But suddenly I "seems to think" that it's all Bush's fault.

[Type941]

Bring up the age argument with Reagan.

Yes, Barney Frank should be patted on the back for his good job with the mortgage banking issue. The GOP should take it all in the shorts. Both are at fault.


I'm not enamored with either of them. Right now I do not think it is the time to "give Obama a chance". This is not little league.
You willing to give Palin a chance?? You know her for 5 weeks buddy and all we know so far is she is unqualified and just plain nasty. Pretty picture for those with MILF at top of their sexual fantasies, but there is nothing else that merits her to be in such position. McCain failed in judgement many times over the years. Obama if fails, has Biden at least and he is a smart guy. Both of them are SMART people. I'd want a SMART person in white house, not a coward falling back on his daddy and former beauty queen who has experience in field dressing a moose but nothing else. I bet you are MORE qualified for VP then Palin. This s not just a little glitch, it's dangerous to let McCain to the office just because Palin is there. If Romney was next to him I wouldnt be so horrified but this stupid bitch? Im sorry , no way any argument McCain is gonna win me over as long as palin next to him.

Besides, Raegan is not some saint. IN last yaers it was clear he was suffering, and let's not him into a some sort messiah. He was an old man, and just because his punch line worked in debate it doesn't mean it should for McCain. McCain is not Raegan. McCain called you all Fellow Prisoners for crying out loud. what mental state is he in? Wondering around on stage, misspeaking, geting lost.. He looks like he's losing it already (when he is not on meds?). Sorry, I think McCain is a crook and coward, not a great man. And his campaign is sleezy and disgusting.


And on bailout - they need to do something. How they do it is another matter, but the FIRST thing they need to do is to restore trust in the markets. I work in banking. i can say that if that system freezes up everyone is gonna be screwed. You just can't let that happen. Put few wallstreet bankers in jail. This Fuld guy for example deserves to go. But don't pin the blame on bailout, since McCain was one 'suspending his campaign' trying to push it through!

[Type941]

On a side note, I want to hear from those who suport McCain .

What do you have to say about Palin being in the ticket? Is this OKey and you support her views? Do you find her to be unimportant enough to worry about how unqualified she is (in other words you think McCain is gonna be 100% healthy and in office even though history shows that VPs taking over is very real possibility)? Do you not care about America to allow this religious fanatic/fashist to be a 72 year olds heart beat away from presidency? Or you indeed support the 'kill him' 'bomb Omaba' yelling rasist at her rallies?

We talking too much about Obama vs McCain but it's a package. I want to hear one pro GOP member here defending Palin or being honest about what they think about her and lay out ARGUMENTS for why it is OK to have this woman serve as VP? I want arguments, reasons. So far facts show what an incompetent disaster she is. Prove me wrong.

[Biggles]

I eagerly awaits a good answer for Type941:yep:

Personally, I hope it'll be Obama. Not that I think that he's that great as the general public may think, but from all the stuff I've heard from McCain/Palin, I'll stick with Mr. Obama.

[Iceman]

I am a McCain supporter and I was working when I heard a slight report on the radio that he had chosen a woman...I thought what a smart move...and a great choice...he picked Condi Rice....when I heard Sara Who? Palin..I thought wtf...what a dumb a!@# choice on McCains part....what a ding dong...I fear really this will be the undoing....I wanted Condi Rice or even more so Joe Liberman...as a realistic choice....Sara Palin....what a cluster F!#$!@#!

I see some of his reasoning on this but his advisors should really be taken out and horse whipped...Sara Palin...ughh i cringe at that choice... :(

[Tchocky]

I see some of his reasoning on this but his advisors should really be taken out and horse whipped...Sara Palin...ughh i cringe at that choice... :(
As far as I know the decision was McCain's. Some of his top advisors were not even informed.
I agree that it was a terrible choice, but it seems to have been his terrible choice.

[Type941]

I see some of his reasoning on this but his advisors should really be taken out and horse whipped...Sara Palin...ughh i cringe at that choice... :( As far as I know the decision was McCain's. Some of his top advisors were not even informed.
I agree that it was a terrible choice, but it seems to have been his terrible choice.
may be it proves a genius move and he wins. By looks of it it was a one minute decision. A gut feeling. There are many successful people in the world that listen to their guts and get ahead in life...

But here we go guys, one more of her supporters are her rally... bringing a monkey dressed up as OBAMA and then after realizing he is filmed, removing Obama signs from it and passing it to a kid. What is going on at these rallies that racist scumbags like this one are appearing on regular basis now? What is this woman saying?!! I won't be surprised that the next two lines we will hear from McCain-Palin rally will be 'white power' and 'hang that N... ". For real people, this now seems possible and I can only IMAGINE what kind of state Alaska is!!! Kudos to CBS for showing this...
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4515218n

[Skybird]

may be it proves a genius move and he wins. By looks of it it was a one minute decision. A gut feeling. There are many successful people in the world that listen to their guts and get ahead in life...


One of the basic golden rules in chess: do not rely on guts feeling - calculate it.

There may be successful people that listen to their guts - but maybe they are just lucky. however, there seem to be many more people whom listened to their guts, and landed on their nose. Guts-feeling is for romantics searching for the blue flower etc.

[Type941]

may be it proves a genius move and he wins. By looks of it it was a one minute decision. A gut feeling. There are many successful people in the world that listen to their guts and get ahead in life...

One of the basic golden rules in chess: do not rely on guts feeling - calculate it.

There may be successful people that listen to their guts - but maybe they are just lucky. however, there seem to be many more people whom listened to their guts, and landed on their nose. Guts-feeling is for romantics searching for the blue flower etc.

i disagree strongly on that one. There are scientific studies that seem to prove some people are able to read their unconcious reaction to certain things much better then others and make decisions seemingly without knowing why. They can't even explain it later and try to rationalize. Like top tennis players saying they flip the wrist and cover the ball when they hit with racket (while all studies show they hit it normally and flip wrist only AFTER they hit it)... there is this very interesting book a while back i read called BLINK by Malcolm Gladwell. Check it out just for fun read. I for sure trust my gut when logic tells me NOT to and seem to be right when the feeling is strong. :)

PS. I am an analyst by what I do so of course I use logic and reason a lot. ;)

[Torps]

I hope we all realize there is a media bias. Before McCain ran for president, going back in to the 80s,90s and even early 00s he was loved by the media, everyones favorite Republican, wow did that change! He went from the favorite to being called the devil and demonized. The more I watch this election the more I think after this election I will register as a Republican vs Independent.

There is a lot of anger at the Republican party and the democrats could easily win the election but they picked a terrible, inexperienced candidate.

Dick Morris said it best...

"The Republican party is the party that can't win , with the candidate that can't lose. And the Democrat party is the party that can't lose, with the candidate that can't win."


I can't agree more and I rest my case.

[Skybird]

may be it proves a genius move and he wins. By looks of it it was a one minute decision. A gut feeling. There are many successful people in the world that listen to their guts and get ahead in life...

One of the basic golden rules in chess: do not rely on guts feeling - calculate it.

There may be successful people that listen to their guts - but maybe they are just lucky. however, there seem to be many more people whom listened to their guts, and landed on their nose. Guts-feeling is for romantics searching for the blue flower etc.

i disagree strongly on that one. There are scientific studies that seem to prove some people are able to read their unconcious reaction to certain things much better then others and make decisions seemingly without knowing why. They can't even explain it later and try to rationalize. Like top tennis players saying they flip the wrist and cover the ball when they hit with racket (while all studies show they hit it normally and flip wrist only AFTER they hit it)... there is this very interesting book a while back i read called BLINK by Malcolm Gladwell. Check it out just for fun read. I for sure trust my gut when logic tells me NOT to and seem to be right when the feeling is strong. :)

PS. I am an analyst by what I do so of course I use logic and reason a lot. ;)
For every star player, how many tennis players are there who do not have that skill? for every millionaire who won a fortune from almost nothing in the stockmarket lottery - how many losers are there, and people who just made the expected average gain in profits? 1:1000 ? 1:10000? Or even 1:100000?

I stick to it, most people are well-advised to not just bet their life on guts-feelings, but to calculate carefully what they do, and act within the normal range of their skills and potentials. I've seen that in martial arts. I see it in chess. I saw it in therapist-patient-relations. and I would say I see it in the media reports whenever the context of this issue is being brought up, and I see it in ordinary, normal life. I even saw it in the boxing fight between Klitschko and Samual Peter last night, which was a textbook example of not getting carried away but remain total control by total technical superiority. :lol: There are things like sixth sense, yes. But most often John Smith needing to make a decision while walking down the street is better off not to consider that itching behind the ear as a hint from his sixth sense, but to calculate his decision as best as he can and on the basis of the info he has, always testing wether that info basis is sufficient and trustworthy, or maybe not. The huge majority of people will be better served that way.

for example many people bought financial products that were labelled as "safe" just because they believed their bank advsior. they too "felt that they can trust him", and that they would not intentionally be lied to. That feeling even made them ignore the fact that banks do not work for people's benefit, but for their own profit, and that many advisors worik on the basis of provisions. Well, we know now how the story ended for very many people throughout the world. winners from the current crisis there will be: but far less in numbers.

[Type941]

I hope we all realize there is a media bias. Before McCain ran for president, going back in to the 80s,90s and even early 00s he was loved by the media, everyones favorite Republican, wow did that change! He went from the favorite to being called the devil and demonized. The more I watch this election the more I think after this election I will register as a Republican vs Independent.

There is a lot of anger at the Republican party and the democrats could easily win the election but they picked a terrible, inexperienced candidate.

Dick Morris said it best...

"The Republican party is the party that can't win , with the candidate that can't lose. And the Democrat party is the party that can't lose, with the candidate that can't win."


I can't agree more and I rest my case.


Well, I'll address your points, so don't rest too easy yet. ;)

1. McCain was loved by media because he was doing his Maverick job. He was standing up to the bull**** that the republicans were pushing through legislations, year after year. He was maverick. A guy on sidelines, voicing his opinion, trying to do things. He didn't call himself maverick that much, he just got his head down and worked with guys like Lieberman to do what's right for the country in his view. For THAT the media liked him.

Now after he won the nomination, as someone rightly poited out he should have said 'FACK IT' and take Lieberman as VP or even the boring whats his name Romney. That would have been in line with braking from tradition. He would have lost some radical morons who support his party and some racists and religious fanatics but you know what, judgement should have told him 'fack 'em'. Instead he understood that he just CANNOT be a leader of Republican party. He didn't have the influence or balls or both to take charge of GOP and say "this is the direction i'm gonna take'. Had he done that after securing the nomination, he would have had a much more decent change running during financial meltdown. but now? Look at what he has become? His campaign is run by GOP, he is financed by them so he relies on them. This is not what Obama or Dems have. Obama is leading his party, and McCain following what they say: hence, takin on board this idiot bitch Palin. And many in america even conservatives realized that this isn't the same McCain anymore: AMBITION go the better of him, not the willingness to put country first.

2. The Obama is wrong candidate for Dems - perhaps and if he loses it will be BECAUSE in USA RACISM is still STRONG. There are no real reasons not to give him the nod over the erratic McCain and incompetent Palin except Racism. So if McCain wins - Racism wins.

3. To all the GOP supporters here which are many since they are all ex military it seems, i just want to say: guys, your candidate now IS NOT a conservative in true sense of the word, and your ticket is NOT what republicans used to be. Do not feel bad about turning your back on this ticket because they are wrong for America. They are inspiting your country into a racial clash. People are already clashing at rallies verbally - racist slogans, vs. racist accusation, I mean there is 3 weeks to go, how bad can it get further? Palin is not stopping, she is whipping them up into frenzie now. She keeps pushing. You watch one of those rallies might end in physical fight or something and that will be a "REpublican" way???? Is the election going to be decided by the racial biggots in south of amerika? Looks like it so far.

[Type941]

may be it proves a genius move and he wins. By looks of it it was a one minute decision. A gut feeling. There are many successful people in the world that listen to their guts and get ahead in life...

One of the basic golden rules in chess: do not rely on guts feeling - calculate it.

There may be successful people that listen to their guts - but maybe they are just lucky. however, there seem to be many more people whom listened to their guts, and landed on their nose. Guts-feeling is for romantics searching for the blue flower etc.
i disagree strongly on that one. There are scientific studies that seem to prove some people are able to read their unconcious reaction to certain things much better then others and make decisions seemingly without knowing why. They can't even explain it later and try to rationalize. Like top tennis players saying they flip the wrist and cover the ball when they hit with racket (while all studies show they hit it normally and flip wrist only AFTER they hit it)... there is this very interesting book a while back i read called BLINK by Malcolm Gladwell. Check it out just for fun read. I for sure trust my gut when logic tells me NOT to and seem to be right when the feeling is strong. :)

PS. I am an analyst by what I do so of course I use logic and reason a lot. ;) For every star player, how many tennis players are there who do not have that skill? for every millionaire who won a fortune from almost nothing in the stockmarket lottery - how many losers are there, and people who just made the expected average gain in profits? 1:1000 ? 1:10000? Or even 1:100000?

I stick to it, most people are well-advised to not just bet their life on guts-feelings, but to calculate carefully what they do, and act within the normal range of their skills and potentials. I've seen that in martial arts. I see it in chess. I saw it in therapist-patient-relations. and I would say I see it in the media reports whenever the context of this issue is being brought up, and I see it in ordinary, normal life. I even saw it in the boxing fight between Klitschko and Samual Peter last night, which was a textbook example of not getting carried away but remain total control by total technical superiority. :lol: There are things like sixth sense, yes. But most often John Smith needing to make a decision while walking down the street is better off not to consider that itching behind the ear as a hint from his sixth sense, but to calculate his decision as best as he can and on the basis of the info he has, always testing wether that info basis is sufficient and trustworthy, or maybe not. The huge majority of people will be better served that way.

for example many people bought financial products that were labelled as "safe" just because they believed their bank advsior. they too "felt that they can trust him", and that they would not intentionally be lied to. That feeling even made them ignore the fact that banks do not work for people's benefit, but for their own profit, and that many advisors worik on the basis of provisions. Well, we know now how the story ended for very many people throughout the world. winners from the current crisis there will be: but far less in numbers.

I think we talking differnt things.

Imagine you meet some girl and you just know it's right. Like in a second you know. You haven't been brainwashed, you don't know why. You just KNOW IT. Think about the type of girl you like, and then you meet some girl and you like this girl ... later you realize she is not your ideal but you like her... and subsequently she becomes your type, you can't explain it. When you brake up you probably revert to your ideal, but at that instance, you change.

There was other example of a museum spending millions of dolalrs on reseach on a statue that looked great, much better then counterparts, had all documents proving it was not fake, and all the carbon testing that was done proved it was thousands years old. It was amazing. And number of scholars who saw for first time just had these 'gut' reactions "fake". They couldn't explain it... but they knew. Later one it proved to be the case ... And these guys, that have experience in doing something for all their life, need only few seconds to extrapolate the info they need. The brain works like this. And then they start doubt thinking wait, the research says that, there is papers, etc... All looks good but something doesn't 'feel' right.

Or they had put 2 couples in a room to speak to each other about anything for 15 minutes. they were watched by researches. They had 20 different values for emotions shown (so analytical approach right there). They were trained to read emotions on face. Little 2 second emotions, like rolling eyes, or whatever. Not noticable. People always seemed nice to each other but when ranked on this scale it was obvious what the issues were. The guy who invented this eventually got so good that he didnt need 15 min to watch. He needed 30seconds. He realized that of all emotions, all that was necessary to note was contempt. If that's there in relationship, marriage will fall apart . And he predicted with like 95% accuracy. People who weren't trained adn were shown this video they were guessing it wrongly. But after they were told what to look for, without much preparation their success rate went up to 80%. Thats very good already.

I guess its got to do with whether you belive your brain is an amazing tool that we don't use to the full or you think all we do is rational and so on. Its the difficulty of figuring out which signals are worth reading or not, not that it's not there. Many people read signals wrong, which is ok, but that doesn't mean that we don't have this ability. Only few people do, people who are good at what they do in life have this ability more then others. People like Buffet and Soros for example. They can do things that shock the market, and yet they are right. Analysis? as if. their biographies and friends often account for exactly impulse desicions. But these peopel too try to explain this through anaysis and so on. Humans are good at that. Finding reasons for unexplained. ;)

ok, back on topic. we can talk baout this on PM if you want more.

[Digital_Trucker]

OK, so when some lef-wing nut job supports Obama, you can't judge the candidate by who supports them, but when a bunch of right-wing nut-jobs support McCain, it's evidence that the republican party is inciting a racial war?

Hypocrisy, I think it's called. It's one way or the other. You can judge a candidate by their supporters or not. If you do, then both of them fail the test for judgement. If you don't, then you have to make the decision in some other way.

[Takeda Shingen]

OK, so when some lef-wing nut job supports Obama, you can't judge the candidate by who supports them, but when a bunch of right-wing nut-jobs support McCain, it's evidence that the republican party is inciting a racial war
This is certainly a peculiarity of the political spectrum. I, too have noted that, in generalities, a right-leaning individual with reprehensible views is labeled as an 'extremist'. This, of course, is fine and acceptable, as the person is indeed extreme in his or her views, and, thus, is outside of what would be considered socially acceptable. What is different is that a left-leaning individual with no less reprehensible views is frequently labeled an 'activist'. In-so-far as this goes, there seems a double standard.

[Digital_Trucker]

You're forgetting that McCain paid for nasty adds that were precisely aimed at getting the support of this part of the voters, let alone Palin's speeches.
So, you're saying that McCain and Palin's speeches are racist? I'll grant you that many of the speeches and ads are basic, good old boy, political mud-slinging, but the only racist remarks I've seen made by any of the candidates were made by Obamas running mate.

Edit : And you forget that all politicians will aim to get the support of whoever they can get. Obama's speeches tend to attract the left (no matter how radical), McCain's attract the right (no matter how radical). Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

OK, so when some lef-wing nut job supports Obama, you can't judge the candidate by who supports them, but when a bunch of right-wing nut-jobs support McCain, it's evidence that the republican party is inciting a racial war This is certainly a peculiarity of the political spectrum. I, too have noted that, in generalities, a right-leaning individual with reprehensible views is labeled as an 'extremist'. This, of course, is fine and acceptable, as the person is indeed extreme in his or her views, and, thus, is outside of what would be considered socially acceptable. What is different is that a left-leaning individual with no less reprehensible views is frequently labeled an 'activist'. In-so-far as this goes, there seems a double standard.

Definitely true. Yet both sides will complain about double standards. Politics is illogical enough to make Mr. Spock go mad.

[Konovalov]

OK, so when some lef-wing nut job supports Obama, you can't judge the candidate by who supports them, but when a bunch of right-wing nut-jobs support McCain, it's evidence that the republican party is inciting a racial war
This is certainly a peculiarity of the political spectrum. I, too have noted that, in generalities, a right-leaning individual with reprehensible views is labeled as an 'extremist'. This, of course, is fine and acceptable, as the person is indeed extreme in his or her views, and, thus, is outside of what would be considered socially acceptable. What is different is that a left-leaning individual with no less reprehensible views is frequently labeled an 'activist'. In-so-far as this goes, there seems a double standard.
Yep a double standard.

[Konovalov]

Politics is illogical enough to make Mr. Spock go mad.
:lol: :lol: I like that line.

[KampfSchwimmer]

I'm military..........so republican for me:lurk:

[Skybird]

Palin's breathtaking yet dangerous naivete:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,583918,00.html

Sarah Palin's naivete -- or maybe it is downright bad faith -- is breathtaking. With nary a clue about recent American history, Palin has been inciting crowds to outbursts of hateful and threatening language. (...)
On Saturday, Represenative John Lewis, one of the heroes of the civil rights movement, made the comparison himself (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/11/john_lewis_condemns_gop_campai.html?hpid=topnews). Lewis, now a congressman from Atlanta, took the McCain-Palin campaign severely to task for "sowing the seeds of hatred and division." He said: "George Wallace never threw a bomb. He never fired a gun, but he created the climate and the conditions that encouraged vicious attacks against innocent Americans who were simply trying to exercise their constitutional rights. Because of this atmosphere of hate, four little girls were killed on a Sunday morning (in 1963) when a church was bombed in Birmingham, Alabama."
(...) And cut it out with the cheap shots, Sarah. An atmosphere of character assassination and cultural clash helps no one.

You want to know why Nazism became attractive for a parts of Austrian and German population back then? It started with rethoric hijacking of minds like Palin does, and McCain allows, and his campaign attempts. I wouldn't have expected McCain to fall that deep, but better rip off the mask late, than never.

[Tchocky]

I'm not sure if the actions are as malevolent as you think, Skybird. I believe that McCain/palin just aren't applying as much thought to their actions as the severity of the situation demands.
This is how you go negative in American politics, post-Rove.

It's plain to seee that there are a lot of nut-jobs who support McCain-Palin. That's true for both sides. What's different about this month, then?

Well, first off they keep mentioning Obama as "palling around with terrorists". In the current climate, the word "terrorist" does not mean a left-wing has-been from the 1970's. It means Osama bin Laden. The crowds at McCain/Palin events are making this connection. Notice how some of them scream "terrorist!" when Obama is mentioned, and boo MCCain when he tries (but so halfheartedly) to say that Obama is a decent man.
So some members of the crowd have made the connection Obama-Osama.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/images/2008/10/13/binlyinchipsomodevillagetty.jpg

Ask any American. Ask anyone. What do we do to people like Osama bin Laden?

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/10/10/1529529.aspx

I wonder how much thought they put into this attack line.

[Von Tonner]

Palin has been deputed (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/opinion/12rich.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) to play it the most crudely:Obama “launched his political career in the living room of a domestic terrorist.” He is “palling around with terrorists (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h2TC1ztefVzOiXeCNcmY7lIelBNwD93JUEF00)” (note the plural noun). Obama is “not a man who sees America the way you and I see America.” Wielding a wildly out-of-context Obama quote, Palin slurs him (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/03/say-it-aint-so-sarah-pali_n_131841.html) as an enemy of American troops.
By the time McCain asks the crowd (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/06/mccain-who-is-the-real-barack-obama/) “Who is the real Barack Obama?” it’s no surprise that someone cries out (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/mccain_who_is_the_real_barack.php) “Terrorist!” The rhetorical conflation of Obama with terrorism is complete. It is stoked further by the repeated invocation (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/08/another-mccain-palin-intr_n_132996.html) of Obama’s middle name by surrogates introducing McCain and Palin at these rallies.
This sleight of hand at once synchronizes with the poisonous Obama-is-a-Muslim e-mail blasts and shifts the brand of terrorism from Ayers’s Vietnam-era variety to the radical Islamic threats of today.
That’s a far cry from simply accusing Obama of being a guilty-by-association radical leftist.
Attacking Obama for his toleration of Bill Ayers is legitimate. Attacking him for not dissociating himself from Jeremiah Wright earlier is legitimate. Attacking him for raising taxes is fine. But associating him with "terrorists" in the context of large, angry crowds isn't. Calling him a traitor and someone who seeks to put US troops in harm's way in an emotionally fraught time isn't. Not immediately and strongly rebuking crowd cries of "terrorist," "kill him!" and "treason" isn't.

McCain must loudly and clearly disown and disavow this rhetoric soon. Or we all may live to regret it more deeply than we can currently imagine.
I would only ad that McCain needs to forcefully come down on Palin for her attempts at demonizing Obama - it is doing no ones cause any good. All it does is raise the anger on both sides of the fence

[Skybird]

I'm not sure if the actions are as malevolent as you think, Skybird.

It is an American who wrote the essay I linked, Tchocky. ;) On my part, I principally see the possibility in every Western society that extremists like the Nazis in the Third Reich could make peopl letting them come to power. It is only a question of the right manipulation. And indeed I see the campaign McCain as having brought down self-restraints and limitations that before have to varying degrees safeguarded against this. It is for no reason that McCain has so drmaatically lost in my sympathy scheme. Two and three years ago you can find postings were I said that I could find a republican president McCain eventually as an acceptable compromise I could lvie with. well - no more. I don't trust him for his double-style, and I do not respect him a bit anymore.

[Digital_Trucker]

Comparing Sarah Palin to George Wallace? I'm speechless. Evidently so is Mr Lewis:

Later Saturday, Lewis issued a statement saying a careful review of his remarks "would reveal that I did not compare Sen. John McCain or Gov. Sarah Palin to George Wallace."
"My statement was a reminder to all Americans that toxic language can lead to destructive behavior," Lewis said. "I am glad that Sen. McCain has taken some steps to correct divisive speech at his rallies. I believe we need to return to civil discourse in this election about the pressing economic issues that are affecting our nation."
from http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/11/mccain.lewis/index.html

Evidently Mr. Lewis wasn't comparing the two, he just kinda mentioned George Wallace for the heck of it. Then commended the man he was just railing against for toning it down.

This race baiting is a tactic that is just as (if not more) inflamatory as any rhetoric by the candidates regarding their opponents.

[Frame57]

BO's economic policies will be nothing more than "Trickle up poverty".

[Digital_Trucker]

BO's economic policies will be nothing more than "Trickle up poverty".

I'd laugh if it wasn't so true.

[August]

Penn and Tellers take on the Obama economic plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=491_5WxfcgI&eurl=http://www.bigpicweblog.com/exp/index.php/weblog/penn_teller_a_vote_for_obama_is_a_vote_for_sociali sm/

NSFW - language (rude version of bovine feces)

[Digital_Trucker]

Penn and Tellers take on the Obama economic plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=491_5WxfcgI&eurl=http://www.bigpicweblog.com/exp/index.php/weblog/penn_teller_a_vote_for_obama_is_a_vote_for_sociali sm/

NSFW - language (rude version of bovine feces)
Good to see entertainers with some sense about them.:up:

[August]

You've seen the candidates debate the issues and make their speeches. Now see them do stand-up comedy at the Alfred E. Smith Memorial Foundation Dinner:

McCain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRSmQqw65Pg

Obama part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwwjPnnvK40

Obama Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDTAcfu5rlA

Personally I think McCain won this "debate" but both are hilarious.

[CCIP]

I agree, while some of Obama's lines were really uproarious, I think McCain's delivery was much better. He took on a great aura of irony that Obama never quite got, and it was really something to see Hillary just rolling to his lines about Bill :lol:

I much prefer hearing him speak in this tone than the serious stuff. He's much more convincing when he's being bitterly ironic than just being bitter.

[Digital_Trucker]

They certainly both had good writers, but I agree that McCain's delivery was better. I wonder, too, did we miss some of McCain's presentation or was Obama's that much longer and more like a campaign speech towards the end?:hmm:

[Bosje]

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/10/10/1529529.aspx

I wonder how much thought they put into this attack line.
I guess the Republicans are getting desperate, that article has ignorance oozing out from every orifice.

Even though Obama/Biden are ahead in the polls and even if the world could really use a Democratic win... I'm gonna bet my steak lunch on McCain.

edited out unnecessary bile

[AVGWarhawk]

What I did not care for and McCain was either not allowed or offered, Obama took a serious note at the end of his comedy skit. Then again, I step back and look at the historical significance of this event. I think a serious note by Obama was a good thing in this instance. Who, in their wildest imagination, would see a person such as Obama behind that podium at such an event as this? It does show, as a nation, that we have come a long way. There is more work to be done to be sure. I seriously applaud Obama and the obstacles he has overcome in this campaign. I enjoy seeing and hearing his determination and energy. It is my thoughts that Obama really does give a damn and will work hard for all concerned. No matter how this ends up on the 4th of Nov, we all are experiencing a very significant historical event. Obama has run one awesome campaign. I do not think anyone can deny that. At this point, I really have to admit that I'm still an undecided voter. I'm just Joe the Transportation Specialist.

[CCIP]

I was going to mention that, too. McCain's humour was delivered better, but darn if Obama didn't make for some fine oratory in the serious speech there. He has a definite talent and a lot of professionalism.

And yes, I think Obama is a sign of change in a big way. Not so much immediately political but perhaps cultural. The whole Obama-Clinton race this year, in fact, is definitely one of the most striking things to happen in the US elections in a long time.

That's not, of course, to make a comment on him as potential president. If it all ends in his favour, he's got his work cut out for him and he'll need to prove himself in that he's capable of producing more than just hot air.

[August]

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/10/10/1529529.aspx

I wonder how much thought they put into this attack line.
I guess the Republicans are getting desperate, that article has ignorance oozing out from every orifice.

Even though Obama/Biden are ahead in the polls and even if the world could really use a Democratic win... I'm gonna bet my steak lunch on McCain.

edited out unnecessary bile

The Democrats display of fake righteous discrimination falls flat with just a simple perusal of the DU or KoS websites...

[Tchocky]

That's like saying RedState and Malkin are representative of all Republicans.

[AVGWarhawk]

I was going to mention that, too. McCain's humour was delivered better, but darn if Obama didn't make for some fine oratory in the serious speech there. He has a definite talent and a lot of professionalism.

And yes, I think Obama is a sign of change in a big way. Not so much immediately political but perhaps cultural. The whole Obama-Clinton race this year, in fact, is definitely one of the most striking things to happen in the US elections in a long time.

That's not, of course, to make a comment on him as potential president. If it all ends in his favour, he's got his work cut out for him and he'll need to prove himself in that he's capable of producing more than just hot air.
When I listen to Obama, when he is really not stumping hard, he does seem to have determination. A determination that I have not seen in a long time. He certainly does have his work cut out for him. He needs to prove himself on two fronts:

1. Politically
2. Racially (for lack of a better word)
- explained, for the good of what MLK was working for and now in Obama's grasp, he needs to make good on that dream now realized or soon to be possibly realized. In short, it can make it or break it for all concerned.

I would have to say, if there was anyone that had to be picked to spearhead a black as the president, Obama would have to be the one IMO. He is bright, articulate and really seems to have a clue in a lot of respects.

IMO, no matter who makes it, the country could not be any worse off then what we have now. I really think W was asleep at the helm or just did not know were the helm is...on other words completely lost.

[Digital_Trucker]

Well, after reading an article regarding the dinner this morning, it appears that a good bit of McCain's presentation was left out of the YouTube video. Evidently McCain actually introduced Obama and had some serious statements to make himself.


http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/10/obama_mccain_share_laughs_at_d.html

Mr. McCain offered several words of praise, which Mr. Obama acknowledged with applause and a nod of the head.
"My opponent is an impressive fellow in many ways. Political opponents can have a little trouble seeing the best in each other. I have seen this man at his best. I admire his great skill, energy and determination," Mr. McCain said. "It's not for nothing that he has inspired so many folks in his own party and beyond. Senator Obama talks about making history and he's made quite a bit of it already.
"There was a time when the mere invitation of an African American citizen to dine at the White House was taken as an outrage and an insult in many quarters. Today, it's world away from the cruel and frightful bigotry of that time. And good riddance.
"I can't wish my opponent luck, but I do wish him well."
After a handshake, Mr. Obama took the lectern for his turn.

[Frame57]

What bothered me in the first debate was that BO said he was commited to send more resources and money to foreign countries. I was stunned to hear this. Just what we need to be doing-NOT! Then again I was not pleased when W sent Africa billions of dollars not three or four months ago. Thet rape the people at will and we just keep letting them do it. Where is Charles Bronson when you need him...?

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, after reading an article regarding the dinner this morning, it appears that a good bit of McCain's presentation was left out of the YouTube video. Evidently McCain actually introduced Obama and had some serious statements to make himself.


http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/10/obama_mccain_share_laughs_at_d.html

Mr. McCain offered several words of praise, which Mr. Obama acknowledged with applause and a nod of the head.
"My opponent is an impressive fellow in many ways. Political opponents can have a little trouble seeing the best in each other. I have seen this man at his best. I admire his great skill, energy and determination," Mr. McCain said. "It's not for nothing that he has inspired so many folks in his own party and beyond. Senator Obama talks about making history and he's made quite a bit of it already.
"There was a time when the mere invitation of an African American citizen to dine at the White House was taken as an outrage and an insult in many quarters. Today, it's world away from the cruel and frightful bigotry of that time. And good riddance.
"I can't wish my opponent luck, but I do wish him well."
After a handshake, Mr. Obama took the lectern for his turn.


Yes, McCain showed quite a bit of class with the statements noted above. The serious note I was talking about for Obama was concerning the current conditions of the country. It was at the end of his skit.

To be honest, I enjoyed both and had many laughs. It did my heart good to see this and listen.

[Digital_Trucker]

Same here. It was good to see something other than mud-slinging on both parts. If the two parties could get along as well as that dinner went, we might well be able to get somewhere no matter who gets elected (yes, I know, the word for my current condition, based on that last remark, is delusional:D).

[AVGWarhawk]

Same here. It was good to see something other than mud-slinging on both parts. If the two parties could get along as well as that dinner went, we might well be able to get somewhere no matter who gets elected (yes, I know, the word for my current condition, based on that last remark, is delusional:D).
Delusional, not really. If you think about it, the system is set up with checks and balances. If it all depended on the president, we would have a dictatorship. He does have his veto power but in all reality, the veto makes congress go back and look at the legislation again. So, it does not really matter as much with who is at the helm. Personally, after looking at both policies, we are getting very similar thoughts from Obama and McCain. Sure, some of each policies I do not agree with. Some policies I agree with more for each. It really is a toss up for me. At this point, I really would like to see that type of candor on Capital Hill. It goes to show you it can be done. Cut the pork and work for a common goal for all.

[August]

Remember that both parties have their rabid supporters and enemies not to mention numerous foreigners trying to influence our election for their own purposes. Their voices are usually the loudest and it's why we get the impression of such acrimony in the political process.

[AVGWarhawk]

Remember that both parties have their rabid supporters and enemies not to mention numerous foreigners trying to influence our election for their own purposes. Their voices are usually the loudest and it's why we get the impression of such acrimony in the political process.

Hence we get rid of all the lobbyists.

[Hylander_1314]

Remember that both parties have their rabid supporters and enemies not to mention numerous foreigners trying to influence our election for their own purposes. Their voices are usually the loudest and it's why we get the impression of such acrimony in the political process.

Hence we get rid of all the lobbyists.

Yes!!!!!!! The penalty for lobbying should be the same as treason. As it uses money and influence to direct congress.

[Torps]

After having a chance to catch up on the gossip here I can add my 2 cents.:D

In all honesty that dinner was really needed,to laugh a little bit since things are so tense.

Ultimately in the very end I think there are 5 things that might get McCain a very close win.

1. The fear of complete Democrat control.
2. "Share the wealth comment to Joe".
3. People will take another look at Obama and his "experience".
4. Race
5. Acorn

And if McCain does not win we will not be so free and this is why...

1. Redistribution of wealth
2. The Fairness Doctrine aka govt control of whats on the radio."bye bye freedom
of speech and also might apply to the internet aswell"
3. No Drilling
4. Everyone paying higher taxes (Clinton ran his campaign saying he would cut, but
he raised it on all)
5. Assault weapons ban reinstated
6. Govt health care (Look at Dept of Veterans Affairs health care system, thats
why we dont need govt health care).

I do not know what else would happen but complete democratic control of the House, Senate and the Presidency is to much. Where is the checks and balances???

Hope the man upstairs helps us, we sure hell need it!

[Von Tonner]

Delusional, not really. If you think about it, the system is set up with checks and balances. If it all depended on the president, we would have a dictatorship. He does have his veto power but in all reality, the veto makes congress go back and look at the legislation again. So, it does not really matter as much with who is at the helm.
You are 100% right with the 'checks and balances' inherent in the USA federal system AVGWarhawk - one of the many reasons I'm a staunch federalist.The problem is that there is a slim possibility that the Democrats could get a 60 vote filibuster proof majority in the Senate. Now some could argue that should Obama win this could be a blessing in disguise as given the severity of the economic situation the country is in at the moment, a president surrounded by top advisors to formulate policies would need to be largely unfettered to persue them in these critical times. I'll tell you one thing for sure, I'm sure that that charlatan Joe Lieberman is not sleeping to well at the moment. The closer the Dems get to the magical number the closer he gets to be booted out.

[Digital_Trucker]

The problem is that there is a slim possibility that the Democrats could get a 60 vote filibuster proof majority in the Senate. Now some could argue that should Obama win this could be a blessing in disguise as given the severity of the economic situation the country is in at the moment, a president surrounded by top advisors to formulate policies would need to be largely unfettered to persue them in these critical times.
I wouldn't see either party having a "trifecta", so to speak, as being a good thing. If Obama is elected and the Democrats have control of Congress and the Senate and Obama's economic ideas aren't sound and they are allowed to be instituted without hindrance, we could be looking at a disaster of epic proportions. And yes, I'd feel the same way if McCain is elected. I wouldn't want to see either party controlling everything. I would much rather see both parties use sound judgement and seek professional, unbiased (if there is such a thing) help in the economics department after the President is elected and prompty forgets all those promises they made to get elected.

[Von Tonner]

The problem is that there is a slim possibility that the Democrats could get a 60 vote filibuster proof majority in the Senate. Now some could argue that should Obama win this could be a blessing in disguise as given the severity of the economic situation the country is in at the moment, a president surrounded by top advisors to formulate policies would need to be largely unfettered to persue them in these critical times.
I wouldn't see either party having a "trifecta", so to speak, as being a good thing. If Obama is elected and the Democrats have control of Congress and the Senate and Obama's economic ideas aren't sound and they are allowed to be instituted without hindrance, we could be looking at a disaster of epic proportions. And yes, I'd feel the same way if McCain is elected. I wouldn't want to see either party controlling everything. I would much rather see both parties use sound judgement and seek professional, unbiased (if there is such a thing) help in the economics department after the President is elected and prompty forgets all those promises they made to get elected.
Yes, I agree with you, but Pelosi scares the hell out of me - and if she is allowed to play politics in these times - god help all of us.

[AVGWarhawk]

The problem is that there is a slim possibility that the Democrats could get a 60 vote filibuster proof majority in the Senate. Now some could argue that should Obama win this could be a blessing in disguise as given the severity of the economic situation the country is in at the moment, a president surrounded by top advisors to formulate policies would need to be largely unfettered to persue them in these critical times.
I wouldn't see either party having a "trifecta", so to speak, as being a good thing. If Obama is elected and the Democrats have control of Congress and the Senate and Obama's economic ideas aren't sound and they are allowed to be instituted without hindrance, we could be looking at a disaster of epic proportions. And yes, I'd feel the same way if McCain is elected. I wouldn't want to see either party controlling everything. I would much rather see both parties use sound judgement and seek professional, unbiased (if there is such a thing) help in the economics department after the President is elected and prompty forgets all those promises they made to get elected.
Yes, I agree with you, but Pelosi scares the hell out of me - and if she is allowed to play politics in these times - god help all of us.

Pelosi is a friggin lunatic. How the hell she got to that position is beyond me. She needs to go.

[baggygreen]

Something Frame said caught my eye.

That is, Obama's plan to send more aid money to other countries. us!!:lol:

Seriously though, like it or not, this is essential to try and maintain the status quo. Whilst the US has been using hard power through the middle east and now a little in eastern africa, China has been spreading its influence by using soft power, financial aid, humanitarian assistance, etc, literally right under the US's noses - South America.

An increase in visible aid needs to be made in order to counter the advances of Chinese interests, in my opinion.

[Konovalov]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/20/obama-mccain-election-ohio-carolina
Not really surprising after the long string of ads in the same fashion. Is McCain a puppet of his own campaign or just two faced ?
Funny really because these are the same kind of gutter tactics used against McCain in 2000 when he was running to be the Presidential candidate for the Republican party.

[Tchocky]

Obama has left the campaign for a few days

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_elections_2008/7679508.stm

US Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is to leave the campaign trail for two days to visit his sick grandmother in Hawaii.

[saltysplash]

Remember that both parties have their rabid supporters and enemies not to mention numerous foreigners trying to influence our election for their own purposes. Their voices are usually the loudest and it's why we get the impression of such acrimony in the political process.


Quite so, too many bloody foreigners!!!!

In case you aint noticed, there are some of us who are concerned about who may become the next US president!

If you dont care for foreign influence then BUTT OUT of world politics.

It may escape your notice but just coz the US call a Baseball game a "World Series"....doesn't actually count as a world anything.......Its true title should be a North American Series.

Cricket, Soccer and Rugby all have a truly global 'World Cup'
Stop being so insular...some of us actually agree with US policy and want to keep our connections close....a damn site closer than Europe, an thats for sure.

[August]

Remember that both parties have their rabid supporters and enemies not to mention numerous foreigners trying to influence our election for their own purposes. Their voices are usually the loudest and it's why we get the impression of such acrimony in the political process.

Quite so, too many bloody foreigners!!!!

In case you aint noticed, there are some of us who are concerned about who may become the next US president!

If you dont care for foreign influence then BUTT OUT of world politics.

It may escape your notice but just coz the US call a Baseball game a "World Series"....doesn't actually count as a world anything.......Its true title should be a North American Series.

Cricket, Soccer and Rugby all have a truly global 'World Cup'
Stop being so insular...some of us actually agree with US policy and want to keep our connections close....a damn site closer than Europe, an thats for sure.

Look it's not my fault that your opinion isn't valued as much as you think it should be. I dare say you'd be as disdainful if Americans poked their noses into your politics as well.

As for baseball, :roll: stop your whining. It's our game and our league and we'll call it whatever we want.

[kurtz]

Remember that both parties have their rabid supporters and enemies not to mention numerous foreigners trying to influence our election for their own purposes. Their voices are usually the loudest and it's why we get the impression of such acrimony in the political process.

Quite so, too many bloody foreigners!!!!

In case you aint noticed, there are some of us who are concerned about who may become the next US president!

If you dont care for foreign influence then BUTT OUT of world politics.

It may escape your notice but just coz the US call a Baseball game a "World Series"....doesn't actually count as a world anything.......Its true title should be a North American Series.

Cricket, Soccer and Rugby all have a truly global 'World Cup'
Stop being so insular...some of us actually agree with US policy and want to keep our connections close....a damn site closer than Europe, an thats for sure.
Look it's not my fault that your opinion isn't valued as much as you think it should be. I dare say you'd be as disdainful if Americans poked their noses into your politics as well.

As for baseball, :roll: stop your whining. It's our game and our league and we'll call it whatever we want.

Well actually, on your last point England invented baseball (http://www.breakingnewsenglish.com/0809/080912-baseball.html)

[Konovalov]

It has become quite evident that as time has gone on, the gap in this poll has widened considerably over the last week or so. I wonder if the current majority (of which I cast my vote long ago) will be proven correct? :hmm:

Poll results at the time of this post were:

Obama/Biden http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/haylazblue/polls/bar2-l.gifhttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/haylazblue/polls/bar2.gifhttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/haylazblue/polls/bar2-r.gif 74 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1584) votes 57.36%
McCain/Palin http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/haylazblue/polls/bar3-l.gifhttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/haylazblue/polls/bar3.gifhttp://www.subsim.com/radioroom/haylazblue/polls/bar3-r.gif 55 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1584) votes 42.64%

[Skybird]

Imagine McCain who already have had several heart attacks being elected. I do not trust in his health to live through 4 years if making it into office.

That would mean Palin becoming governing president. A total nightmare of a maximum worst case scenario.

Anyhow I think Obama will win in the range of 55:45 to maybe even 60:40.
I also hope we get spared the carricature of election-aftermath we have seen the past two times when elections were tried to be rewritten at the green table (with success). A result not as tight as 51:49 again would helpt against this - and escaping the 51%-side then boasting with claims it had a "substantial majority" also would be appreciated.

German news yesterday reported that McCain also asked for financial campaign support at the Russian UN representation (you know: these types with the letters JFK in their eyes - or was it KGB?) :lol:

[Thomen]

Imagine McCain who already have had several heart attacks being elected. I do not trust in his health to live through 4 years if making it into office.



Are you sure you are not talking about a different John McCain? Couldn't find anything that said he had a heart attack or even several...

[Thomen]

Seither haben die Herzprobleme von Vizepräsident Dick Cheney die Öffentlichkeit bewegt - er hatte insgesamt vier Herzinfarkte und hat einen Herzschrittmacher.
Dick Cheney hatte 4 infarkte und hat nen Schrittmacher.. der artikel sagt nichts ueber McCain und nen Herzinfarkt. ;)


EDIT: How unfair, Sky, deleting your own post.. ;=)

[Skybird]

Ah, you were faster. Yes I was mistaking him with Cheney, i meanwhile found out.

My reply you quoted I had already deleted before I came back and you had posted the quote.

Edit: not unfair at all, because no intention to be unfair - but to be fair indeed. I was not aware that you already had posted again, and wanted the wrong info being deleted before anyone could fall for it, like I had messed it up.

[Thomen]

Ah, you were faster. Yes I was mistaking him with Cheney, i meanwhile found out.

My reply you quoted I had already deleted before I came back and you had posted the quote.

I tried to quote, but it didnt work, but couldnt figure out why I could not quote the link.. :hmm:

Now I know. :)

[Thomen]

Edit: not unfair at all, because no intention to be unfair - but to be fair indeed. I was not aware that you already had posted again, and wanted the wrong info being deleted before anyone could fall for it, like I had messed it up.

Don't worry. I was just jerking your chain. ;)

[Tchocky]

"I couldn't agree with you more than the fact that Western Pennsylvania is the most patriotic, most God-loving, most patriotic part of America."

Reminds me of a band on tour.

[August]

"I couldn't agree with you more than the fact that Western Pennsylvania is the most patriotic, most God-loving, most patriotic part of America."
Reminds me of a band on tour.
He's referring to how the WPs Dem congressman just called his own constituents "racists" if they didn't vote for the Obama-head.

[Tchocky]

I know what he was reacting to, but most patriotic?

How do you even measure something like that? What does that say about every other part of the country?

[August]

I know what he was reacting to, but most patriotic?

How do you even measure something like that? What does that say about every other part of the country?

I don't see a problem with his use of the word most. How come you analyze every word from the GoP side but ignore similar gaffes from the Democrats?

[Tchocky]

Well, it implies that certain parts of the country are less patriotic than others, which some voters, given the vagueness of the term, may find offensive.
I mention this because a) it made me laugh, and b) this kind of thing seems to be peculiar to the GOP these days. Michelle Bachmann comes to mind.
Sarah Palin has been doing it as well, with all that "real Virginia" rubbish.

[August]

Well, it implies that certain parts of the country are less patriotic than others, which some voters, given the vagueness of the term, may find offensive.

I suppose if you are predisposed to being offended it may have that effect, but the reality is it's not nearly as offensive as being accused of being a racist or "bitter" and "ignorant" or "clinging to guns and religion" or being called "Joe Sixpack" by some elitist jerk whose never done a day of hard work in his life...

[Skybird]

It's being reported that Palin claimed 150 thousand dollar of campaign donations for herself and spend it on a beauty refreshment.

That's the kind of leadership you want at the top! :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

It's being reported that Palin claimed 150 thousand dollar of campaign donations for herself and spend it on a beauty refreshment.

That's the kind of leadership you want at the top! :up:
They have left no stone unturned concerning Palin. Triffling really when I'm sure the off the rack suits by McCain/Biden/Obama were all just 40 irregulars at 1/2 price. Short of a body cavity search on Palin (and perhaps they are planning one) they have beaten this women mercilessly. Quite frankly, I think she has taken it in stride. There is plenty of crap Obama and McCain have not been truthful with and the media is worried about a shopping spree by Palin. Apparently you are as well. Such a shame. If the women showed up in Kmart off the rack clothing they would beat her up over that as well. Find me a leader that has not blown money like it was going out of style. They all do it with the exception that the media is not looking to belittle them at every opportunity. If you do not think a liberal media bias has been a part of this election then you are sorely mistaken. This is just another example of many. Palin has not received as many byes as Obama. Sexist? Possibly.

[Skybird]

Maybe that is because none of the four makes such a poor figure and is so obviously totally unfitted for office, like Palin? As I said above, her becoming the president while McCain is in hospital or even dies, is a nightmare scenario. That she has become such a monummental handicap for the Rep's campaign after McCain presented her in a coup of surprise as a secret weapon, tells volumes. I'm sure he has cursed himself for that many many times by now.

It all reminds of a stupid supergirl with wonderbra trying to park a car in reverse, looks in the mirror - and immediately forgets what she wanted to do, grabs a lipstick and paints her lips while keeping to roll backwards. :lol:

[Konovalov]

John Edwards USD $400 haircuts.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18157456/

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/opinion/21dowd.html

I don't see any bias on this issue and I also don't find any of this a big deal. :roll: In this modern era of 24 hour news coverage and internet bogs and video, what politician is going to walk into the public arena wearing trackie dacks (tracksuit pants), a tank top, and thongs (flip flops)? Wake up people. :)

[AVGWarhawk]

Maybe that is because none of the four makes such a poor figure and is so obviously totally unfitted for office, like Palin? As I said above, her becoming the president while McCain is in hospital or even dies, is a nightmare scenario. That she has become such a monummental handicap for the Rep's campaign after McCain presented her in a coup of surprise as a secret weapon, tells volumes. I'm sure he has cursed himself for that many many times by now.

It all reminds of a stupid supergirl with wonderbra trying to park a car in reverse, looks in the mirror - and immediately forgets what she wanted to do, grabs a lipstick and paints her lips while keeping to roll backwards. :lol:

Seems you are a bit sexist yourself Skybird. Do you really think that it will be a nightmare scenerio if Palin needs to take the helm or just conjecturing? Right now Biden thinks Obama will be tested in the first 6 months. This is a nightmare scenerio from jump street. Yet, you have no comment. If she is such a handicap, why is the race so tight? I do not see her as a handicap at all. The reason, there are cabinets created that assist the president and or vice president when needed. She will not be standing there all by herself. Neither will Obama/McCain/Biden.

[Tchocky]

The race is anything but tight.

Bit of a dead cat bouncr for McCain, I think.

[AVGWarhawk]

The race is anything but tight.

Bit of a dead cat bouncr for McCain, I think.

Yes, judging by the polls one could make the prediction of a race that is not close. But, I take these polls with a grain of salt because the polls show a close race, others shows a 10 point lead, others show dead even. I do believe Obama will pull it out in the end but I believe the race will be close. I do not see the "landslide" victory the Dems keep pushing in hopes of everyone will just jump on the bandwagon. The self fulfilling prophecy as it were. Anyway, the kids have voted and Obama won. Once the kids pick and historically they are correct, their voted choice is the winner.

[AVGWarhawk]

I couldn't care less about Palin's or any other's wardrobe, but I think the point here is that Palin plays the "hockey mom" card, "I'm just like you folks, I'm not like these Washington elites" yadda yadda so that's quite amusing to see she just spent a few years of the average "hockey mom" salary in fancy cloths. Other than that, yeah, that's fluff.
Yes, it is fluff, but again, if she showed up in sweat pants and sweat shirt that said I hunt moose on it, she would also be drawn and quartered. So she is damned if she does and damned if she does'nt. Unfortunate the media will not let her have it both ways.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well the media didn't force her to play the "just another American hockey mom" card.

The media did not force Obama to play the under privileged upbringing but that card was brought to the table and dispelled as well on his way to law school and the many places travelled while "finding himself". BTW, did the just another hockey mom buy these cloths before she was asked to run with McCain or after? After! Therefore, she is just another hockey mom who purchased new clothing for a run at the vice presidency. Just about everyone I know buys new cloths for the job interview. So, you tell me, does she wear jeans and a t-shirt at a rally or a nice business type outfit? Did Hillary's clothing get the attention that Palins has?

[Konovalov]

Did Hillary's clothing get the attention that Palins has?
I do recall many pantsuit jibes at her not to mention much discussion in the media about her wardrobe of pantsuits. So I would say yes in answer to your question.

[AVGWarhawk]

Did Hillary's clothing get the attention that Palins has? I do recall many pantsuit jibes at her not to mention much discussion in the media about her wardrobe of pantsuits. So I would say yes in answer to your question.
I do remember the cracks on her pants suits. So, this brings up sexism does it not? Has anyone cracked on Obama/McCain/Biden concerning their clothing, cost or otherwise? Not that I recall. Did anyone dig into what Hillary spent on her clothing? Not that I recall. So, someone pointedly went out to dig dirt on the hockey mom. Agree or not? Someone took the time to go from store to store to find out what she spent. Is this really the case? Is this a sign of desparation? The polls are close, just another attempt at widening the gap? This is an issue the media is drilling now but Ayers is not and old history. Interesting.

[August]

The race is anything but tight.

Bit of a dead cat bouncr for McCain, I think.

I think you and Skybird may just be very unpleasantly surprised next month. I'm starting to see the St. Obama facade starting to crack.

[AVGWarhawk]

The race is anything but tight.

Bit of a dead cat bouncr for McCain, I think.
I think you and Skybird may just be very unpleasantly surprised next month. I'm starting to see the St. Obama facade starting to crack.

I predict a very very close race. The media is already worrying about a short election night. I think it will be a long night.

[Tchocky]

The race is anything but tight.

Bit of a dead cat bouncr for McCain, I think.

I think you and Skybird may just be very unpleasantly surprised next month. I'm starting to see the St. Obama facade starting to crack.

Obviosuly, the last two weeks have a somewhat different campaign attitude, but I haven't seen too much change in the overall numbers.


The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Thursday shows Barack Obama attracting 52% of the vote while John McCain (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll#) earns 45%. That seven-point lead is Obama’s largest in nearly two weeks. This is also the first time since October 11 that the Democratic candidate has reached the 52% level of support, his highest total of the year.
For the past 28 days, Obama’s support has stayed between 50% or above 52% every day. During that period, the number voting for McCain has stayed in the 44% to 46% range and the gap between the candidates has ranged from four to eight percentage points

[AVGWarhawk]

Still some time left Tchocky. A lot can happen between now and then. Again, I do not put to much faith in the polling. The demographic of each and each news station that conducts them always seem to be biased one way or the other. One poll yesterday showed them even, another showed a difference of 3. On it goes.

[AVGWarhawk]

Obama needs more money for his campaign.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2008/10/obama-money.html

I suspect we will see the same when he becomes president....I just need a few more dollars folks. Stop clinging to your guns and religion and hand over $10.00. :roll:

[Skybird]

Maybe that is because none of the four makes such a poor figure and is so obviously totally unfitted for office, like Palin? As I said above, her becoming the president while McCain is in hospital or even dies, is a nightmare scenario. That she has become such a monummental handicap for the Rep's campaign after McCain presented her in a coup of surprise as a secret weapon, tells volumes. I'm sure he has cursed himself for that many many times by now.

It all reminds of a stupid supergirl with wonderbra trying to park a car in reverse, looks in the mirror - and immediately forgets what she wanted to do, grabs a lipstick and paints her lips while keeping to roll backwards. :lol:

Seems you are a bit sexist yourself Skybird. Do you really think that it will be a nightmare scenerio if Palin needs to take the helm or just conjecturing? Right now Biden thinks Obama will be tested in the first 6 months. This is a nightmare scenerio from jump street. Yet, you have no comment. If she is such a handicap, why is the race so tight? I do not see her as a handicap at all. The reason, there are cabinets created that assist the president and or vice president when needed. She will not be standing there all by herself. Neither will Obama/McCain/Biden.
I don't worry about sex, I am worrying about intelligence and competence, and Palin has not left an impression in any of two. And are you sure you are not a bit skybirdiophobic? ;)

[AVGWarhawk]

Maybe that is because none of the four makes such a poor figure and is so obviously totally unfitted for office, like Palin? As I said above, her becoming the president while McCain is in hospital or even dies, is a nightmare scenario. That she has become such a monummental handicap for the Rep's campaign after McCain presented her in a coup of surprise as a secret weapon, tells volumes. I'm sure he has cursed himself for that many many times by now.

It all reminds of a stupid supergirl with wonderbra trying to park a car in reverse, looks in the mirror - and immediately forgets what she wanted to do, grabs a lipstick and paints her lips while keeping to roll backwards. :lol:
Seems you are a bit sexist yourself Skybird. Do you really think that it will be a nightmare scenerio if Palin needs to take the helm or just conjecturing? Right now Biden thinks Obama will be tested in the first 6 months. This is a nightmare scenerio from jump street. Yet, you have no comment. If she is such a handicap, why is the race so tight? I do not see her as a handicap at all. The reason, there are cabinets created that assist the president and or vice president when needed. She will not be standing there all by herself. Neither will Obama/McCain/Biden. I don't worry about sex, I am worrying about intelligence and competence, and Palin has not left an impression in any of two. And are you sure you are not a bit skybirdiophobic? ;)

Not at all a Skybirdiophobic. This is the shortest response from you yet! :rotfl:

[kranz]

a few days ago a guy called "David Iverson" came to my university with a lecture "something about Obama, Mccain and the elections". He said that he will tell us about all the tricks used in the media-debate, ads and all this stuff. But his every second sentence was prasing Obama and scolding McCain-dunno-maybe he thought that we have us citizenships. Whatever. All of the presented "tv-ads" were pathetic and naive. I hope they do not represent the level of the receivers...

[Tchocky]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081022/ap_on_el_pr/palin_vice_president_s_job

[AVGWarhawk]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081022/ap_on_el_pr/palin_vice_president_s_job
If I remember correctly, Joe Biden got it wrong as well during his debate with Palin.

IFILL: Vice President Cheney's interpretation of the vice presidency?
BIDEN: Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we've had probably in American history. The idea he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that's the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.
And the primary role of the vice president of the United States of America is to support the president of the United States of America, give that president his or her best judgment when sought, and as vice president, to preside over the Senate, only in a time when in fact there's a tie vote. The Constitution is explicit.
The only authority the vice president has from the legislative standpoint is the vote, only when there is a tie vote. He has no authority relative to the Congress. The idea he's part of the Legislative Branch is a bizarre notion invented by Cheney to aggrandize the power of a unitary executive and look where it has gotten us. It has been very dangerous.






Even Joe said it is to preside of the Senate!!!:hmm: So is Joe a dumb twit also. For elementary school kids should Palin used 'PRESIDE" instead of "RUN"?

Next..................

[AVGWarhawk]

...Traditionally, the vice president appears in the Senate for ceremonial events and in case of a tie vote...

...and as vice president, to preside over the Senate, only in a time when in fact there's a tie vote. The Constitution is explicit...
Am I missing something ?
Yes, Joe Biden was talking to adults...Palin was talking with elementary school kids. In short, it will be sugar coated for the kids. It still remains a mystery to both of them. As the article states, it was simplfied for a kid. Good Lord, Palin can not win for losing with the media.

[August]

From Tchockys link (important part bolded):

Traditionally, the vice president appears in the Senate for ceremonial events and in case of a tie vote. Although the vice president can preside over the Senate, vice presidents have left that day-to-day chore to senators themselves. In the past, each president has determined the role of the vice president in an administration.

There is no "use it or loose it" rule in the US constitution, so just because some previous VPs have allowed others to do their job for them it doesn't mean that this negates their constitutionally defined duties. Personally i'd love to see someone like Palin presiding over the Senate.

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't understand. According to Yahoo news' definition, the statement you posted by Biden is correct so what's the problem ? The problem isn't in the choice of words, it's that Palin's statement implyed that the VP "running" or "presiding" the Senate is common business.
Apparently we both don't understand :rotfl:. Here it is. Biden pretty much said the same thing during the debates. But, Biden was talking to adults. This very lame report belittles the fact that Palin was talking with children and her definition would be sugar coated so not to completely lose the kids in a precise definition of a VP's role. It is common business if the VP so wishes to participate even if in a very limited role of just breaking a tie vote.

Again, this is just another media attack on Palin. NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN ATTACKED DURING A VP RUN LIKE PALIN SINCE 1988. It is sad and sickening. CNN has called her imcompetent and ignorant. This is the meda folks! They constantly attempt to do the 'gotch ya' game with her. You do not find this disturbing and over the edge? I find it amazing all the byes Obama receives from the media. Biden gets bye after bye. Biden just might want to stay quiet the next 11 days if he wants to win. He just might have another "flourish". The media is about ratings people....not fact finding. Palin makes good ratings just like good comedy for Saturday Night Live.

What next, she uses 2 ply toilet paper and it is not enviromentally sound to do so? I find is really bad the liberal media beat up McCain and his attack adds. Yet, they do nothing but beat up Palin all the time. No two sides to the street. Sad state of affairs.

[Tchocky]

Actually there are more pressing environmental issues regarding Sarah Palin.

On the ignorance front

Q: I’ve also heard you hint that you do think there might be some man-made causes that are contributing to this. Can you describe what those are?

PALIN: Right, well what I have said about this is really the debate at some point, had better shift to, no matter the cause, whether it all be attributed to man’s activities or just the natural cycle of climate changes in our earth’s history. We have seen this before.

[AVGWarhawk]

Actually there are more pressing environmental issues regarding Sarah Palin.

On the ignorance front

Q: I’ve also heard you hint that you do think there might be some man-made causes that are contributing to this. Can you describe what those are?

PALIN: Right, well what I have said about this is really the debate at some point, had better shift to, no matter the cause, whether it all be attributed to man’s activities or just the natural cycle of climate changes in our earth’s history. We have seen this before.
We can cherry pick all day on skirting the questions. They all do it and all can be seen as ignorant. It all depends on how you want to look at it. McCain and Obama have danced around questions just like Palin. So, we can then say both of these gentlemen are ignorant as well or is it that she wears skirt and not pants? They all double talk or say absolutely nothing on some questions posed.

[August]

I find it very revealing that the best the Dems can come up with are the wardrobe choices of the GoP vice presidential candidate.

[AVGWarhawk]

I find it very revealing that the best the Dems can come up with are the wardrobe choices of the GoP vice presidential candidate.
Let face it, Palin has become fair game for all the media. No one has said anything. Dumb or not, no one deserves to be treated like that in the national spotlight. It is all fun and games for ratings. The media keeps toughting that American is tired of McCains attack ads yet Obama spent more on the media ads that attacked McCain and more than any runner ever spent. Just the media darling that brings ratings, viewership and more companies to run commercials during the breaks from the beatings. It has simply been amazing to watch the media pick their candidate and run with it. :shifty: Personally, I think we are screwed no matter who hits the white house. It was nice for the 4 major media outfits to do the picking for the country because they know what is best after all. Fair and unbiased reporting is dead.

All the crying about Obama bashing, including Powell. Were is the outrage for Palin and the bashing? Anyone have an answer for this?

[Skybird]

Yes, it is all the bad media's and biased public's fault. What makes it especially unthankful an affair is that McCain and Palin always have played fair and honest, and never tried to badmouth this guy Obama to the public.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes, it is all the bad media's and biased public's fault. What makes it especially unthankful an affair is that McCain and Palin always have played fair and honest, and never tried to badmouth this guy Obama to the public.

Obama did not need to bad mouth McCain or Palin, the media did it for him and continues to do so. It was part of the media donation to the Obama campaign:D

[Skybird]

Yes, it is all the bad media's and biased public's fault. What makes it especially unthankful an affair is that McCain and Palin always have played fair and honest, and never tried to badmouth this guy Obama to the public.

Obama did not need to bad mouth McCain or Palin, the media did it for him and continues to do so. It was part of the media donation to the Obama campaign:D
Yes, sure, if you say so. And while the evil lefty media did not do the same for Palin and McCain to discredit Obama, both took it upon themselves to take care of that and did the dirty job themselves - that's true statesmanship. :up:

[August]

Obama supporters becoming violent:

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/17789356/detail.html

Richard said the robber took $60 from the woman, then became angry when he saw a McCain bumper sticker on the victim's car. The attacker then punched and kicked the victim, before using the knife to scratch the letter "B" into her face, Richard said.

[Thomen]

Obama supporters becoming violent:

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/17789356/detail.html

Richard said the robber took $60 from the woman, then became angry when he saw a McCain bumper sticker on the victim's car. The attacker then punched and kicked the victim, before using the knife to scratch the letter "B" into her face, Richard said.
There are a couple of cars here in the area where I live that got vandalized because of a McCain bumper sticker. Have yet to see an 'Obama' car that got the same treatment. :nope:

This years election hysteria is just nuts )from both sides), from what I hear.

And WTH is up with this?
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/police-prepare-for-unrest-2008-10-21.html

[Torps]

Obama supporters becoming violent:

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/17789356/detail.html

Richard said the robber took $60 from the woman, then became angry when he saw a McCain bumper sticker on the victim's car. The attacker then punched and kicked the victim, before using the knife to scratch the letter "B" into her face, Richard said.
There are a couple of cars here in the area where I live that got vandalized because of a McCain bumper sticker. Have yet to see an 'Obama' car that got the same treatment. :nope:

This years election hysteria is just nuts )from both sides), from what I hear.

And WTH is up with this?
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/police-prepare-for-unrest-2008-10-21.html

I wont put any McCain stickers on my trunk even though thats who I support. But if you are in a "SAFE STATE" I have a website for ya

http://www.mccainpowell.com/

and my favorite

http://www.cafepress.com/obamawhizkid.267826393

[Tchocky]

I find it very revealing that the best the Dems can come up with are the wardrobe choices of the GoP vice presidential candidate.#

Yeah, this is the only topic that's ever been discussed.

[Skybird]

"Gender alone is not enough":

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html)

[AVGWarhawk]

Including Fox News or not ? By the way where are they in terms of ratings compared to other news channels ?

I watched FOX last night and they claim they are on top concerning ratings.

[AVGWarhawk]

"Gender alone is not enough":

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html)

Neither is it for Joe Biden. Can someone explain to Joe that J O B S is 4 letters and not 3. :shifty: You go Joe the Crisis Guy.

Still Skybird, you have to admit Palin has been beaten to a pulp.

[AVGWarhawk]

I find it very revealing that the best the Dems can come up with are the wardrobe choices of the GoP vice presidential candidate.#

Yeah, this is the only topic that's ever been discussed.

Tchocky, does it not seem strange to you that the Obama campaign keeps stating that the American public is more concerned with the economy and not attacks yet the clothing issue has been broadcasted for 2 days now and I suspect we will hear more about it today? This clothing issue is trivial compared to other substantial issues.

[Skybird]

"Gender alone is not enough":

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html)

Neither is it for Joe Biden. Can someone explain to Joe that J O B S is 4 letters and not 3. :shifty: You go Joe the Crisis Guy.

Still Skybird, you have to admit Palin has been beaten to a pulp.
I have to admit nothing. She triggered logical reactions to her poor display of lacking ripeness and competence, and her character'S integrity is questionable, midly said. I remember class representatives from my schooldays that scored a better impression in trustworthiness and competence for the office she claims. And what is to be criticised about her in her views and political stands, like the example in the linked essay, to me makes a lot of sense. She is no candidate for the job of vice-president and eventually president - she is a carricature of that.

[Tchocky]

Clothing issue is being broadcast because

a) It's directly at odds with the McCain campaigns anti-pork, anti-spending themes, especially when Palin can well afford to clothe herself.
b) It does not resonate well against the economic back drop. $150k is what, over twice that average annual income?

That's why it's being broadcast. Regarding the main thrust of your question - It's not strange to me, because the Obama campaign does not control what is and is not covered by the mainstram media.

[AVGWarhawk]

"Gender alone is not enough":

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html)
Neither is it for Joe Biden. Can someone explain to Joe that J O B S is 4 letters and not 3. :shifty: You go Joe the Crisis Guy.

Still Skybird, you have to admit Palin has been beaten to a pulp. I have to admit nothing. She triggered logical reactions to her poor display of lacking ripeness and competence, and her character'S integrity is questionable, midly said. I remember class representatives from my schooldays that scored a better impression in trustworthiness and competence for the office she claims. And what is to be criticised about her in her views and political stands, like the example in the linked essay, to me makes a lot of sense. She is no candidate for the job of vice-president and eventually president - she is a carricature of that.

She does not deserve the dripping contempt that she has received. Logical reaction are people hacking her private email? Spending time looking at her families Facebook attempting to find dirt? Talk of clothing and the money spent? That is logical when then are so many other issues at hand? So, in essence, you feel she deserves everything she gets because it is logical?

[AVGWarhawk]

Clothing issue is being broadcast because

a) It's directly at odds with the McCain campaigns anti-pork, anti-spending themes, especially when Palin can well afford to clothe herself.
b) It does not resonate well against the economic back drop. $150k is what, over twice that average annual income?

That's why it's being broadcast. Regarding the main thrust of your question - It's not strange to me, because the Obama campaign does not control what is and is not covered by the mainstram media.

a) no it does not, have we examined what Michele Obama is wearing from a designer in Chicago or that Oprahs make up crew has handled Micheles looks?
b)has anyone looked at what Palin makes? She is not a millionaire to afford the very same clothing the others are wearing. I guess she should show up in a parka and snow boots:up:.

For the last, the media is in Obama hip pocket. 4 major media do not attempt to hid that fact. Good Lord, two of the broadcasters were dismissed at the DNC because of their bias opinions. The media has done it all on their own.

[AVGWarhawk]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/23/navarrette.liberals/index.html

Interesting even for CNN:hmm:

[Tchocky]

a) no it does not, have we examined what Michele Obama is wearing from a designer in Chicago or that Oprahs make up crew has handled Micheles looks? I don't know, has any new information come to light this week about either of these things?
b)has anyone looked at what Palin makes? She is not a millionaire to afford the very same clothing the others are wearing. I guess she should show up in a parka and snow boots:up:. She's worth at least a million, as far as I know.
Point is - does it seem excessive to be spending so much in only 2 months? Does that inspire fiscal rectitude? I don't believe this to be a very important story, more hilarious than anything else. But if it's going to be discussed, might as well ask what it says about the people concerned.

For the last, the media is in Obama hip pocket. 4 major media do not attempt to hid that fact. Good Lord, two of the broadcasters were dismissed at the DNC because of their bias opinions. The media has done it all on their own.
You can say that they are biased towards Obama, but it doesn't make it strange that they are covering this story.

[Frame57]

"Gender alone is not enough":

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html)

Neither is it for Joe Biden. Can someone explain to Joe that J O B S is 4 letters and not 3. :shifty: You go Joe the Crisis Guy.

Still Skybird, you have to admit Palin has been beaten to a pulp.
I have to admit nothing. She triggered logical reactions to her poor display of lacking ripeness and competence, and her character'S integrity is questionable, midly said. I remember class representatives from my schooldays that scored a better impression in trustworthiness and competence for the office she claims. And what is to be criticised about her in her views and political stands, like the example in the linked essay, to me makes a lot of sense. She is no candidate for the job of vice-president and eventually president - she is a carricature of that.The people of Alaska seem convincingly satisfied with her "ripeness", her performance has been very good as Governor. Perhaps the class representatives you refer to are the ones who seemingly turned Berlin into Tijuana. Hell! The problem Skybird is that these class representatives are the problem. they are just polished slick talking used car salesmen. Our Congress has a lower approval rating than the President. Our Congress and Senate employes the term "Honorable" before their names. They are anything but honorable, they are dishonorable in every sense of the word and America is waking up to the fact the "politics as usual" is not cutting it anymore. The fact that Palen stick in their craw is enough for me to endorse her.

[AVGWarhawk]

a) no it does not, have we examined what Michele Obama is wearing from a designer in Chicago or that Oprahs make up crew has handled Micheles looks? I don't know, has any new information come to light this week about either of these things?
b)has anyone looked at what Palin makes? She is not a millionaire to afford the very same clothing the others are wearing. I guess she should show up in a parka and snow boots:up:. She's worth at least a million, as far as I know.
Point is - does it seem excessive to be spending so much in only 2 months? Does that inspire fiscal rectitude? I don't believe this to be a very important story, more hilarious than anything else. But if it's going to be discussed, might as well ask what it says about the people concerned.

For the last, the media is in Obama hip pocket. 4 major media do not attempt to hid that fact. Good Lord, two of the broadcasters were dismissed at the DNC because of their bias opinions. The media has done it all on their own. You can say that they are biased towards Obama, but it doesn't make it strange that they are covering this story.

1) no, nothing new on Michele Obama, just another bye I suppose. However, Oprah is offer up her production crew to Obama....and she did not want to make her show a political platform. Good grief.

2) it is kind of hilarious and a none issue, it just seems Palin can not break wind without a comment in the negative. Caribou Barbie she is.

3) I think it is strange they are covering the story, not just for a day but 2 days and going on 3. At least to the next insignificant piece of information.

Look, gents, Palin would not have been my number one choice but what's done is done, I'm only arguing the point that she has received more then enough beating from the media and they do not look to be stopping any time soon. I have to say that Obama go some respect in stating that the media needs to leave her daughter alone. Now, if Obama did not say that do you think Palin's daughter would be fair game? You bet! So does Obama control the media? In some respect he does. We can use Palin's pregnant daughter as fodder for the media that reared it's ugly head 3-4 weeks ago.

Now, the latest on Palin is her medical records. An ugly rumour is already started that Palins last child with Down's is really her daughters child. I have read some nasty comments at the news websites. The hatred for Palin is just unbelievable. Really, what has this women done other then help out Obama's campaign? They should be thanking her.

[AVGWarhawk]

"Gender alone is not enough":

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html)
Neither is it for Joe Biden. Can someone explain to Joe that J O B S is 4 letters and not 3. :shifty: You go Joe the Crisis Guy.

Still Skybird, you have to admit Palin has been beaten to a pulp. I have to admit nothing. She triggered logical reactions to her poor display of lacking ripeness and competence, and her character'S integrity is questionable, midly said. I remember class representatives from my schooldays that scored a better impression in trustworthiness and competence for the office she claims. And what is to be criticised about her in her views and political stands, like the example in the linked essay, to me makes a lot of sense. She is no candidate for the job of vice-president and eventually president - she is a carricature of that.The people of Alaska seem convincingly satisfied with her "ripeness", her performance has been very good as Governor. Perhaps the class representatives you refer to are the ones who seemingly turned Berlin into Tijuana. Hell! The problem Skybird is that these class representatives are the problem. they are just polished slick talking used car salesmen. Our Congress has a lower approval rating than the President. Our Congress and Senate employes the term "Honorable" before their names. They are anything but honorable, they are dishonorable in every sense of the word and America is waking up to the fact the "politics as usual" is not cutting it anymore. The fact that Palen stick in their craw is enough for me to endorse her.


This means nothing that she handles a billion dollar budget for Alaska and Obama has learned how to press the PRESENT button in the Senate over the past two years. Oh yeah, did you hear about her clothing? :roll:

[Tchocky]

Couldn't care less about her kids, really.
Her acceptance speech was the end of that.
Complaining about the media intruding on the lives of her children, then roaring about her son enlisting in the army on Sep 11, and how he's heading off to Iraq. Either you use your children as political footballs or you don't.

[AVGWarhawk]

Couldn't care less about her kids, really.
Her acceptance speech was the end of that.
Complaining about the media intruding on the lives of her children, then roaring about her son enlisting in the army on Sep 11, and how he's heading off to Iraq. Either you use your children as political footballs or you don't.

Not so! The word was out on her daughter and the media was drooling like a pride of lions over a freshly killed boar. They were hushed by Obama (who does not control the media) remember? She addressed her daughters bad decision and moved on in part because Obama said it and it was so (Obama 1.1). Why should she not roar about her son. Should she just crap in his lap and not tell anyone of his achievement? I guess she would not be considered motherly if she did not roar. Again, the media can play it both ways concerning her son.

[Thomen]

"Gender alone is not enough":

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-586129,00.html)
Neither is it for Joe Biden. Can someone explain to Joe that J O B S is 4 letters and not 3. :shifty: You go Joe the Crisis Guy.

Still Skybird, you have to admit Palin has been beaten to a pulp. I have to admit nothing. She triggered logical reactions to her poor display of lacking ripeness and competence, and her character'S integrity is questionable, midly said. I remember class representatives from my schooldays that scored a better impression in trustworthiness and competence for the office she claims. And what is to be criticised about her in her views and political stands, like the example in the linked essay, to me makes a lot of sense. She is no candidate for the job of vice-president and eventually president - she is a carricature of that.The people of Alaska seem convincingly satisfied with her "ripeness", her performance has been very good as Governor. Perhaps the class representatives you refer to are the ones who seemingly turned Berlin into Tijuana. Hell! The problem Skybird is that these class representatives are the problem. they are just polished slick talking used car salesmen. Our Congress has a lower approval rating than the President. Our Congress and Senate employes the term "Honorable" before their names. They are anything but honorable, they are dishonorable in every sense of the word and America is waking up to the fact the "politics as usual" is not cutting it anymore. The fact that Palen stick in their craw is enough for me to endorse her.

This means nothing that she handles a billion dollar budget for Alaska and Obama has learned how to press the PRESENT button in the Senate over the past two years. Oh yeah, did you hear about her clothing? :roll:

Oh yea.. her clothing. Don't you find it outrageous that she did not pay a dime for it herself. How uncouth!
Even worse is that she does not own any of the stuff. Damn.. those republicans even want to give it to charity after election is over. Don't you hate to those bleeding heart Republicans? ;)

[Thomen]

I have a better idea for the Rep campaign, sell the clothes on ebay for twice their original value and use the money to buy casual clothes for hundreds of people.

That's a great idea actually. I bet the stuff would bring a pretty penny.

[August]

Oh yea.. her clothing. Don't you find it outrageous that she did not pay a dime for it herself. How uncouth!
Even worse is that she does not own any of the stuff. Damn.. those republicans even want to give it to charity after election is over. Don't you hate to those bleeding heart Republicans? ;)

My mother bought me Lederhosen once. I'm still emotionally scarred from it. :dead:

[Frame57]

Ridiculous in a way. I expect any family to have some kind of problem with kids now and then, especially in todays pleasure marketed culture. But it stoops to all time lows when the media vultures attack a family. As much as I disliked Bill Clinton I never appreciated the often media jabs about his daughter. Sarah's daughter got knocked up...you would think the liberal media would applaud that, but they are looking for scraps to keep fighting over. I mean come on...Ronald Regan's son, Dick Cheney's daughter...where does it end and what bearing does it have? The media has hit the turd pile and they have welcome company with most attorneys!

[AVGWarhawk]

I have a better idea for the Rep campaign, sell the clothes on ebay for twice their original value and use the money to buy casual clothes for hundreds of people.
That's a great idea actually. I bet the stuff would bring a pretty penny.

Auction them off at Christy's of NY. They would get some good money to donate to charity or they can just spread the wealth in the neighborhood :D

[Tchocky]

This means nothing that she handles a billion dollar budget for Alaska and Obama has learned how to press the PRESENT button in the Senate over the past two years. Oh yeah, did you hear about her clothing? :roll:

Actually, last two years Obama has been in the national Senate. The national Senate does not allow "present" votes.

You're thinking of the Illinois State Senate, where he voted present 129 times, 3% of his total votes over eight years.

[AVGWarhawk]

This means nothing that she handles a billion dollar budget for Alaska and Obama has learned how to press the PRESENT button in the Senate over the past two years. Oh yeah, did you hear about her clothing? :roll:
Actually, last two years Obama has been in the national Senate. The national Senate does not allow "present" votes.

You're thinking of the Illinois State Senate, where he voted present 129 times, 3% of his total votes over eight years.

You are correct.
http://votepresent.com/

[Tchocky]

From the department of Sh*t You Couldn't Make Up

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IN_OBAMA_HITLER_LETTER_INOL-?SITE=ININS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2008-10-23-17-59-23

[Digital_Trucker]

Funny that no one is complaining about Obama using his campaign plane (and funds) to go visit his sick Grandma, either. Or the 2 million dollar shindig that he's already started planning in Chicago (which will be paid for out of campaign funds) for "when" he gets elected.



You're thinking of the Illinois State Senate, where he voted present 129 times, 3% of his total votes over eight years.

If I'm not mistaken, he was one of the Senate members who used the "present" vote far more than others (will have to go look it up, now :D)

[AVGWarhawk]

From the department of Sh*t You Couldn't Make Up

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IN_OBAMA_HITLER_LETTER_INOL-?SITE=ININS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2008-10-23-17-59-23

To be honest, that is about the dumbest thing someone could do. Obama is in no way shape or form is remotely close to Hitler. Hitler was is in a league of his own.

[AVGWarhawk]

Funny that no one is complaining about Obama using his campaign plane (and funds) to go visit his sick Grandma, either. Or the 2 million dollar shindig that he's already started planning in Chicago (which will be paid for out of campaign funds) for "when" he gets elected.



You're thinking of the Illinois State Senate, where he voted present 129 times, 3% of his total votes over eight years.
If I'm not mistaken, he was one of the Senate members who used the "present" vote far more than others (will have to go look it up, now :D)

The media just touched on the millions for a huge party for Obama. Then they left it alone because they might not get their invite if it was blown out of proportion. You know, like clothing and crap like that. :roll:

[AVGWarhawk]

Obama supporters becoming violent:

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/17789356/detail.html

Richard said the robber took $60 from the woman, then became angry when he saw a McCain bumper sticker on the victim's car. The attacker then punched and kicked the victim, before using the knife to scratch the letter "B" into her face, Richard said.


Found to be a made up story. That was an easy one. The B on her face is backwards. I guess it looked correct looking in the mirror as she scratched the B on her face. Notice it is not deep and will not scar over.

[August]

Obama supporters becoming violent:

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/17789356/detail.html

Richard said the robber took $60 from the woman, then became angry when he saw a McCain bumper sticker on the victim's car. The attacker then punched and kicked the victim, before using the knife to scratch the letter "B" into her face, Richard said.

Found to be a made up story. That was an easy one. The B on her face is backwards. I guess it looked correct looking in the mirror as she scratched the B on her face. Notice it is not deep and will not scar over.

Yeah I just heard. :nope: Reminds me of the guy who scratched a swastika on his forehead. Amazing what people will do to gain attention...

[AVGWarhawk]

You will get a hoot out of this pic


http://www.politico.com/blogs/anneschroeder/

[August]

Excellent WSJ article on Palin:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122471822552260585.html?mod=djemEditorialPage

[Stealth Hunter]

Hilarious response from Palin when answering a third-grader's question about the VP's job:

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/22/politics/horserace/entry4539032.shtml

“But also, they're in charge of the United States Senate, so if they want to they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom. And it's a great job and I look forward to having that job.”


:rotfl:

[August]

Hilarious response from Palin when answering a third-grader's question about the VP's job:

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/22/politics/horserace/entry4539032.shtml

“But also, they're in charge of the United States Senate, so if they want to they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom. And it's a great job and I look forward to having that job.”

:rotfl:
Welcome to page 21. :roll:

[Skybird]

Hilarious response from Palin when answering a third-grader's question about the VP's job:

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/22/politics/horserace/entry4539032.shtml

“But also, they're in charge of the United States Senate, so if they want to they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom. And it's a great job and I look forward to having that job.”


:rotfl:

Now serious, she is not really a senator, yes? She gets payed a fee to produce these absurd answers, and in real life is an actor, starring in some sort of sitcom, right? Brainless enough she is for that job. Sitcom-actor, I mean.

Sometimes i think she is a hidden Democrat and was smuggled into McCain's team to boost Obama's own campaign that way. :lol:

[August]

Hilarious response from Palin when answering a third-grader's question about the VP's job:

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/22/politics/horserace/entry4539032.shtml

“But also, they're in charge of the United States Senate, so if they want to they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom. And it's a great job and I look forward to having that job.”

:rotfl:
Now serious, she is not really a senator, yes? She gets payed a fee to produce these absurd answers, and in real life is an actor, starring in some sort of sitcom, right? Brainless enough she is for that job. Sitcom-actor, I mean.

Sometimes i think she is a hidden Democrat and was smuggled into McCain's team to boost Obama's own campaign that way. :lol:

Another one who never made it past page 20. Try reading the 12th Amendment then get back to us with your latest pronouncement.

[Von Tonner]

The left leaning media have come in for a lot of criticism over their coverage of this election. Some of it justified. But I don't think I have seen anything as disgusting in comparison as this from the right-wing media in their appeal to all the wingnuts out there.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200810230020

[AVGWarhawk]

Hilarious response from Palin when answering a third-grader's question about the VP's job:

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/22/politics/horserace/entry4539032.shtml

“But also, they're in charge of the United States Senate, so if they want to they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom. And it's a great job and I look forward to having that job.”


:rotfl:

Now serious, she is not really a senator, yes? She gets payed a fee to produce these absurd answers, and in real life is an actor, starring in some sort of sitcom, right? Brainless enough she is for that job. Sitcom-actor, I mean.

Sometimes i think she is a hidden Democrat and was smuggled into McCain's team to boost Obama's own campaign that way. :lol:

Nah, Joe Biden will handle that. Let me give you three letters... J O B S. Ok, Joe, you are not going to head up the education reform. :rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

The left leaning media have come in for a lot of criticism over their coverage of this election. Some of it justified. But I don't think I have seen anything as disgusting in comparison as this from the right-wing media in their appeal to all the wingnuts out there.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200810230020

That notion is probably a stretch at best. However, just were is the certificate:hmm:

[Skybird]

http://kdka.com/local/attack.McCain.Bloomfield.2.847628.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/rick-sanchez-calls-out-me_n_137679.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/mccain-supporter-who-clai_n_137484.html

[AVGWarhawk]

http://kdka.com/local/attack.McCain.Bloomfield.2.847628.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/rick-sanchez-calls-out-me_n_137679.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/mccain-supporter-who-clai_n_137484.html

We covered this one a few post back. This young lady needs her head examined

[AVGWarhawk]

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

If there was anything to find there, don't you think the Clinton's would have found it ?
Anyway, bringing this again is a sign that some people think that the only to beat Obama is if he can't run.

I believe it is a none issue myself Mikhayl but it is fun to speculate:D

[Skybird]

http://kdka.com/local/attack.McCain.Bloomfield.2.847628.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/rick-sanchez-calls-out-me_n_137679.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/mccain-supporter-who-clai_n_137484.html

We covered this one a few post back. This young lady needs her head examined

Ooops, considering that these links about this liar confessing that she lied are less than 20 hours old...

[August]

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

If there was anything to find there, don't you think the Clinton's would have found it ?
Anyway, bringing this again is a sign that some people think that the only to beat Obama is if he can't run.
I believe it is a none issue myself Mikhayl but it is fun to speculate:D

That Berg fellow, the Clinton supporter, does still have his lawsuit on-going but both his campaign and the DNC are doing the fingers in the ears trick.

The bad part of all this is that if it turns out that Barry did break the rules and the DNC hid that fact, it makes his presidency illegitimate and could very possibly tear the country apart, so I don't understand their foot dragging here. All they have to do is supply the original birth certificate, something that every American has to produce when they are applying for a security clearance, and be done with it but they don't.

[AVGWarhawk]

http://kdka.com/local/attack.McCain.Bloomfield.2.847628.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/rick-sanchez-calls-out-me_n_137679.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/24/mccain-supporter-who-clai_n_137484.html

We covered this one a few post back. This young lady needs her head examined

Ooops, considering that these links about this liar confessing that she lied are less than 20 hours old...

Considering your time zone and you were probably asleep when this lunatic fringe girl fessed up, we will consider this still new developments around the world:up:

[Monica Lewinsky]

Given the two choices, I prefer this third party canidate:


http://learnabit.homeserver.com/lab/alfred.jpg

He'd be more successful them two jerks we have to pick from.

For the first time since 1976, I probably will not vote. Both of them are useless pukes.

[Digital_Trucker]

Given the two choices, I prefer this third party canidate:


http://learnabit.homeserver.com/lab/alfred.jpg

He'd be more successful them two jerks we have to pick from.

For the first time since 1976, I probably will not vote. Both of them are useless pukes.

I thought he was our current President:rotfl:

[AngusJS]

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

If there was anything to find there, don't you think the Clinton's would have found it ?
Anyway, bringing this again is a sign that some people think that the only to beat Obama is if he can't run.
I believe it is a none issue myself Mikhayl but it is fun to speculate:D
That Berg fellow, the Clinton supporter, does still have his lawsuit on-going but both his campaign and the DNC are doing the fingers in the ears trick.

The bad part of all this is that if it turns out that Barry did break the rules and the DNC hid that fact, it makes his presidency illegitimate and could very possibly tear the country apart, so I don't understand their foot dragging here. All they have to do is supply the original birth certificate, something that every American has to produce when they are applying for a security clearance, and be done with it but they don't.

It's my understanding that in Hawaii, the state holds onto the original certificate, and only releases copies.

BTW, how did Obama get his passport for his trip to to Europe without a birth certificate?

[August]

It's my understanding that in Hawaii, the state holds onto the original certificate, and only releases copies.

BTW, how did Obama get his passport for his trip to to Europe without a birth certificate?

I hope you're right because you know it will come to light once the press turns on him.

[Sea Demon]

BTW, how did Obama get his passport for his trip to to Europe without a birth certificate?

To get a passport you can also use a Consular Report of a birth abroad, or any other certificate of birth (certified), naturalization certificate, or a certificate of Citizenship.

There are what's called secondary evidence of U.S. citizenship as well. A number of them need to be submitted. What I'm trying to say is that there are other means to get a passport without a certified Hawaii birth certificate.

[Fish]

From Von Tonners link:
However, in addition to FactCheck.org and a Hawaiian Health Department official, even Corsi's employer, the right-wing website WorldNetDaily, has reportedly determined that the birth certificate provided by the Obama campaign is authentic.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200810230020

[Sea Demon]

From Von Tonners link:
However, in addition to FactCheck.org and a Hawaiian Health Department official, even Corsi's employer, the right-wing website WorldNetDaily, has reportedly determined that the birth certificate provided by the Obama campaign is authentic.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200810230020

From the 26th:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=69126


However, investigative work done by the Insider now raises the possibility that the image posted on the Kos site, and an image later on the Obama campaign site, lack authenticity................

The Insider said Jay McKinnon, a self-described Department of Homeland Security trained document specialist, "has implicated himself in the production of palpably fake Hawaii birth certificate images similar to the one endorsed as genuine by the Barack Obama campaign, and appearing on the same Daily Kos blog entry where the supposedly authentic document appears.".......................


Bottom line. All Obama has to do is release his birth certificate, and open it up for analytical scrutiny. He won't do it. He could stand up at any podium, hold up the certificate and say "I welcome anybody and everybody to come up here and take a look at this document for authenticity". It's really that simple. The fact that he won't do this should make every American of common sense raise an eyebrow. I don't expect the baby-boomer Democrat ideologues to care, but every other American who has a vested interest in the security of the USA should be demanding full disclosure.

[Sea Demon]

Just why should he bother with conspirationists who won't believe him anyway ?
"Oh look he's so confident, I'm sure there's something fishy !"

What conspiracy? He needs (and the DNC) to prove his eligibility. Questions have arised due to many conflicts of fact which bring in questions his eligibility. Statements from those he knows (his Kenyan grandmother), records from his Indonesian school, and his own silencing attempts on those who raise questions makes something smell rotten. Also, the fact that he won't produce any proof with many voters calling for it is rather telling that there may be problems with his candidacy. If he would display these documents (WITH THE EMBOSSED SEAL-ORIGINALS ONLY) then there would be no question. Since he won't do it, it should leave many Americans who care about constitutional requirements, and national security implications to call for full disclosure.

[baggygreen]

Heres 2 questions, open floor.

1: Why wouldn't the DNC need solid proof of his birthplace before nominating him as the candidate? Surely its in their own best interests to have ensured 100% that he was the real deal, so to speak? Additionally, if they have tis proof, why are they holding onto it and not putting the matter to rest?

2: What happens if he gets elected, but afterwards there is proof he is ineligible to hold office? My first thought would have been that Joe Biden would've taken over, but on second thoughts, Joe would only be there because of the deception, so wouldnt that make him ineligible as well? Further to that, the Republicans couldnt take over either, because they weren't voted in to the role.

So, what would happen?

[August]

Heres 2 questions, open floor.

1: Why wouldn't the DNC need solid proof of his birthplace before nominating him as the candidate? Surely its in their own best interests to have ensured 100% that he was the real deal, so to speak? Additionally, if they have tis proof, why are they holding onto it and not putting the matter to rest?

2: What happens if he gets elected, but afterwards there is proof he is ineligible to hold office? My first thought would have been that Joe Biden would've taken over, but on second thoughts, Joe would only be there because of the deception, so wouldnt that make him ineligible as well? Further to that, the Republicans couldnt take over either, because they weren't voted in to the role.

So, what would happen?

1. I don't think there is much self vetting among party leadership.

2. I believe that Biden would take over as President. Of course if it is subsequently proved that he knew about the deception beforehand that would make him a criminal conspirator and therefore impeachable in his own right. In that case his pick as Veep becomes President.

[AVGWarhawk]

It is about time McCain brings up the fact that the Democrats will control all in DC. Checks and balance government is cast aside as a result. Obama might as well throw away the veto stamp, he will not need it. One party control is not a good thing.

[Skybird]

Why was it not time to bring it up that the Republicans were in all control, when they were? Because they were not Democrats?

[August]

Why was it not time to bring it up that the Republicans were in all control, when they were? Because they were not Democrats?

Well I did at the time but that won't stop you from ignoring what I'm telling you now... :D

[AVGWarhawk]

Why was it not time to bring it up that the Republicans were in all control, when they were? Because they were not Democrats?

As of late, Pelosi has been tooting her horn and making plans for early sessions of Congress even before Obama has won! In short, this has come about in past two weeks that the Dems are joyous in the knowlegded that all in DC will be Democrately controlled. If this is the case, America will be grabbing their ankles and taking it without a common courtesy of a reach around.

[Hylander_1314]

Why was it not time to bring it up that the Republicans were in all control, when they were? Because they were not Democrats?

As of late, Pelosi has been tooting her horn and making plans for early sessions of Congress even before Obama has won! In short, this has come about in past two weeks that the Dems are joyous in the knowlegded that all in DC will be Democrately controlled. If this is the case, America will be grabbing their ankles and taking it without a common courtesy of a reach around.

So it'll be just like it was when my divorce went through. She got the goldmine, I got the shaft. Same thing the American people are going to get from the bottom up.

[August]

... at least if you're not happy with either the Congress or the President you get to vote every 2 years to change either of them, so a "total majority" can last only 2 years if the people isn't pleased.


Which is about how long i expect it to last if it indeed happens.

[AVGWarhawk]

Having a President from party A which also has the majority in Congress is a normal thing isn't it ? Both Pres & Congress are voted in, so I don't see a problem with that, if people are happy with it.
Of course the people supporting the opposition party have more reasons to be mad, I know how it feels :damn:
But I can tell you I'd rather have your system, at least if you're not happy with either the Congress or the President you get to vote every 2 years to change either of them, so a "total majority" can last only 2 years if the people isn't pleased.
Here we vote our "Congress" ("assemblée nationale) at the same time as the President, for the same term length (5 years). Can you see the flaw in the system ? Obviously if the people vote a President from "party A", 2 weeks later they're likely gonna vote a "Congress" from party A too. So right now we have 5 years of barely limited power from the government, with barely any "check and balance" left. That really sucks.
The problems is there is no checks and balances, just checks and usually the Americans checks with written figures on them called taxes. We are possibly faced with a super liberal president. Put this together with Pelosi who is way out there and the other super liberals in Congress....we are in trouble. Everyone will agree on everything and believe it is for the good of people and we should all do our PATRIOTIC DUTY and pay taxes. This will amount to more big government. Furthermore, they will load the supreme court with people in agreement with them, another check and balance gone. It will truly be a one rule party.

[August]

Yeah but that's what I'm saying, if the majority of the American people votes for a democrat Congress & President, so be it. You say "we're in trouble" because you don't like their policy, but if more than 50% of the people like it, well, all you can do is go back to the voting machine in 2 years and try to change it, in the meantime you'll have to live with the idea that the majority of America disagrees with your views.

That is of course what we'll do but nothing wrong with pointing out the situation is there?

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah but that's what I'm saying, if the majority of the American people votes for a democrat Congress & President, so be it. You say "we're in trouble" because you don't like their policy, but if more than 50% of the people like it, well, all you can do is go back to the voting machine in 2 years and try to change it, in the meantime you'll have to live with the idea that the majority of America disagrees with your views.

A view is one thing but good sound policy is completely different. There is a distinction. Historically, democratic Congress has been tax and spend. Although we hear Obama giving a tax break to 95% of the middle class, do not believe it. He can not do that and pay for all his "new" ideas. First of all, the middle class was targeted because they comprise a large majority of the eligable voters. So, it was only a ploy at best with his tax reduction for the middle class to get them onboard. So far it has worked because most people stop listening and vote on the last thing they wanted to hear...tax cut. Works great now and worked great in the past. Realistically McCain said to stop the cuts exactly were they are and cut the pork. This is more responsible then making a promise of tax cuts that we know are not forthcoming. Mark my words.

I ramble here Mikhayl and you are correct, two years we vote again. I still believe we need term limits.

[August]

Sure August, I was just insisting with AVG on the system rather than the policy of each party.
Two years isn't that long, I think you really have a good system. Imagine if you're a repub and you get a dem president & congress for 5 years, or vice versa. I agree though, all the MPs should have the same term limit as the president, otherwise it's not far from being a feudal system.

Actually terms are deliberately set up that way as well as staggered so that no more than a third of Congress is up for reelection at one time.

Members of the House of Representatives get 2 year terms so that (in theory) there is a constant influx of new blood and the Senate gets 6 year terms for stability.

[AVGWarhawk]

Sure August, I was just insisting with AVG on the system rather than the policy of each party.
Two years isn't that long, I think you really have a good system. Imagine if you're a repub and you get a dem president & congress for 5 years, or vice versa. I agree though, all the MPs should have the same term limit as the president, otherwise it's not far from being a feudal system.
Actually terms are deliberately set up that way as well as staggered so that no more than a third of Congress is up for reelection at one time.

Members of the House of Representatives get 2 year terms so that (in theory) there is a constant influx of new blood and the Senate gets 6 year terms for stability.

Unfortunate we have a congress full of unstable people running the country:rotfl:

[dean_acheson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck

Oh my...

[August]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck

Oh my...

Yeah I saw that earlier on another forum. What he was saying then isn't what he's saying now, is it?

[JHuschke]

You will get a hoot out of this pic


http://www.politico.com/blogs/anneschroeder/

What the bloody hell? I've been there before, its a Clinic. I recongize the door, tables and where the light comes from.

[AVGWarhawk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck

Oh my...

Yet another bye coming for Obama on this one as well.

[Torps]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck

Oh my...

Yet another bye coming for Obama on this one as well.

I hope that this tape is released soon, the truth will be finally out undeniably!

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/28/la-times-refuses-release-tape-obama-praising-controversial-activist/

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obamamideast10apr10,0,1780231,full.story

[AVGWarhawk]

A definite pattern is starting to emerge concerning Obama's ideology. I still think the LA Times is holding that tape from the public at the moment.

[Digital_Trucker]

A definite pattern is starting to emerge concerning Obama's ideology. I still think the LA Times is holding that tape from the public at the moment.

The story I read last night said that they weren't going to release it ever because it was given to them by a "confidential source" and they respect their sources confidentiality. They also said that the original article (which is quite old) says it all. There was some speculation as to who else might be on the tape, too.

Long story short, I don't think we'll ever see the tape.

[Tchocky]

A definite pattern is starting to emerge concerning Obama's ideology.

What kind of ideological pattern?

[August]

A definite pattern is starting to emerge concerning Obama's ideology.
What kind of ideological pattern?

That he is a socialist at the very least.

[AVGWarhawk]

A definite pattern is starting to emerge concerning Obama's ideology.
What kind of ideological pattern?
That he is a socialist at the very least.
He seems to flock with people of the Socialist/Marxist persuasion. Some very radical left/activist associations have come to light. Now we have another tape with some more evidence of "just a guy in the neighborhood" that the LA Times will not release. That in itself is glariing to say the least. The LA Times "we do not reveal our sources" which is short for, we have no other excuse other than that. Would you want to be the newspaper who ruined it for Obama?

It does not matter, he will get a bye on this also.

[Sea Demon]

A definite pattern is starting to emerge concerning Obama's ideology.
What kind of ideological pattern?
That he is a socialist at the very least.
He seems to flock with people of the Socialist/Marxist persuasion. Some very radical left/activist associations have come to light. Now we have another tape with some more evidence of "just a guy in the neighborhood" that the LA Times will not release. That in itself is glariing to say the least. The LA Times "we do not reveal our sources" which is short for, we have no other excuse other than that. Would you want to be the newspaper who ruined it for Obama?

It does not matter, he will get a bye on this also.

In this case(LA Times story), a Palestinian terror connection. Yes, Obama has extensive ties with some very questionable people. Some people of the far left Socialist variety, and some of the radical Islam variety. I agree, his voters simply won't care. To them, as usual, National Security be damned. Democrats have never shown National Security to be much concern to them. They are merely blind sheep. Their lack of scrutiny on Obama's dangerous connections proves that beyond all doubt.

[August]

A speechwriter for the Democrats says goodbye to his party:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-28/so-long-obama/1/

Very revealing i think.

[AVGWarhawk]

A speechwriter for the Democrats says goodbye to his party:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-28/so-long-obama/1/

Very revealing i think.

She has really thought this out and is dead on. I passed that along to a few I know.

[AVGWarhawk]

http://www.democratsformccain.com/


and there is always an answer Mikhayl :p

[AVGWarhawk]

In this case(LA Times story), a Palestinian terror connection. Yes, Obama has extensive ties with some very questionable people. Some people of the far left Socialist variety, and some of the radical Islam variety. I agree, his voters simply won't care. To them, as usual, National Security be damned. Democrats have never shown National Security to be much concern to them. They are merely blind sheep. Their lack of scrutiny on Obama's dangerous connections proves that beyond all doubt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashid_Khalidi#Allegations_of_PLO_connections

http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2008/10/us-media-lies-and-political-propaganda.html

Yep, just another person in the neighborhood.:p

[AVGWarhawk]

I saw that one too but the url is misleading, they don't mention a single Democrat figure supporting McCain :-?

Good point :oops::rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//081028/481/1caabe54532f44d592c6db0934f62302/

[Konovalov]

In this case(LA Times story), a Palestinian terror connection. Yes, Obama has extensive ties with some very questionable people. Some people of the far left Socialist variety, and some of the radical Islam variety. I agree, his voters simply won't care. To them, as usual, National Security be damned. Democrats have never shown National Security to be much concern to them. They are merely blind sheep. Their lack of scrutiny on Obama's dangerous connections proves that beyond all doubt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashid_Khalidi#Allegations_of_PLO_connections

http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2008/10/us-media-lies-and-political-propaganda.html
He looks and sounds like a terrorist NOT! Certainly after reading this (http://imeu.net/news/article005852.shtml) he looks every bit NOT a person of the "radical Islam variety".

I wouldn't be surprised if both Republicans and Democrats have had associations with Professor Rashid Khalidi in the past.

[Digital_Trucker]

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//081028/481/1caabe54532f44d592c6db0934f62302/

Freakin' great. As if we didn't have enough telemarketers trying to sell bullsh!t already:rotfl:

[Sea Demon]

[/URL] He looks and sounds like a terrorist NOT! Certainly after reading [URL="http://imeu.net/news/article005852.shtml"]this (http://angryarab.blogspot.com/2008/10/us-media-lies-and-political-propaganda.html) he looks every bit NOT a person of the "radical Islam variety".

I wouldn't be surprised if both Republicans and Democrats have had associations with Professor Rashid Khalidi in the past.

He is on record justifying "resistance" against the state of Israel. He is a cautioned speaker, but some of us are concerned by the lack of clarification and the double talk. The links above are very dubious. He may not be a part of terror operations, but I'm still uncertain as to his views on what "resistance" means. I don't believe I've ever seen him clarify that to my own satisfaction. And as we're currently at war against radical Islamists, I prefer to err on the cautious side. As such, Obama's connections to this guy should make any American that cares about national security cringe. It raises alot of questions in my own mind.

And hey, if this guy is no big deal, why is the pro-Obama LA Times so afraid of full disclosure. ;)

[Konovalov]

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//081028/481/1caabe54532f44d592c6db0934f62302/

Freakin' great. As if we didn't have enough telemarketers trying to sell bullsh!t already:rotfl:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Good one.

[AVGWarhawk]

I forgot this one :
http://www.gallup.com/poll/111424/Obama-Winning-Over-Jewish-Vote.aspx

This was from the 23rd. All the polls are all over the place. Today I see 10 point lead on one and even on another. I take the polls with a grain of salt at the moment.

[AVGWarhawk]

He looks and sounds like a terrorist NOT! Certainly after reading this (http://imeu.net/news/article005852.shtml) he looks every bit NOT a person of the "radical Islam variety".

I wouldn't be surprised if both Republicans and Democrats have had associations with Professor Rashid Khalidi in the past.
He is on record justifying "resistance" against the state of Israel. He is a cautioned speaker, but some of us are concerned by the lack of clarification and the double talk. The links above are very dubious. He may not be a part of terror operations, but I'm still uncertain as to his views on what "resistance" means. I don't believe I've ever seen him clarify that to my own satisfaction. And as we're currently at war against radical Islamists, I prefer to err on the cautious side. As such, Obama's connections to this guy should make any American that cares about national security cringe. It raises alot of questions in my own mind.

And hey, if this guy is no big deal, why is the pro-Obama LA Times so afraid of full disclosure. ;)
Never mind belaying the fact that someone new turns up in the closet just about daily now. What is next for Obama and his past good times having parties with people that draw up concerns? Oh, never mind, I see a new article on Palins clothing line. BRB:p

[Sea Demon]

The poll is specifically about the jewish vote, it should tell you something. I'd think jewish Americans are more aware of the Israel/Palestine situation than the average American, and yet they don't seem to be affraid of an Obama presidency, rather the opposite. Maybe they don't care about "security" either.

Democrats in general don't regard National Security as very important. Doesn't matter what demographic they come from.

Actually the Jewish voters in question are probably like many other people that are fawning blindly over a potential Obama presidency. Too star struck to rationally think what the future implications will be. Obama's many questionable associates, and who he may surround himself in the White House with, his own admission of redistributive policies, his statements of drastically scaling back the military (IN A TIME OF WAR), and much much more are things people should find disconcerting, yet Obamites follow along like blind little sheep. They question nothing. It really is no revelation Mikhayl.

[AVGWarhawk]

The poll is specifically about the jewish vote, it should tell you something. I'd think jewish Americans are more aware of the Israel/Palestine situation than the average American, and yet they don't seem to be affraid of an Obama presidency, rather the opposite. Maybe they don't care about "security" either.

No, this tape was brought to light this week. Your poll is from last week. They might be signing a different tune when the tape is fully disclosed but I'm guessing it will not be disclosed after a few phone calls from some very prominant people are made to the LA Times. ;)

[Torps]

I hope so does this one.

I hear 250k, 250k ok Do I hear 200k, 200k do I hear 200k, ok 150k, do I hear 150k, 150k, 150k going once, going twice. Sold to the stupid people who think im a savior !!!

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MzI3ODEyM2U4YWQxZDU4ZWQ5Yjk4YWNmZjIzM2U3NmY=

I wish I could edit my signature just for this thread, grrr.

[AVGWarhawk]

The poll is specifically about the jewish vote, it should tell you something. I'd think jewish Americans are more aware of the Israel/Palestine situation than the average American, and yet they don't seem to be affraid of an Obama presidency, rather the opposite. Maybe they don't care about "security" either.
No, this tape was brought to light this week. Your poll is from last week. They might be signing a different tune when the tape is fully disclosed but I'm guessing it will not be disclosed after a few phone calls from some very prominant people are made to the LA Times. ;)
Wanna bet ?

On which part? Jewish Americans feeling secure or the tape getting tucked away until the 5th next week? :D

[Sea Demon]

No, this tape was brought to light this week. Your poll is from last week. They might be signing a different tune when the tape is fully disclosed but I'm guessing it will not be disclosed after a few phone calls from some very prominant people are made to the LA Times. ;)

And if this guy is no big deal......what does the Obama campaign and the Obamites at the LA Times have to fear.....right?? That's the big question that should raise some eyebrows. Or maybe they're afraid Biden's going to pitch a hissy fit and the Obama campaign will ban them from interviews like those TV stations. We do know Obama's campaign can't handle tough questions or any scrutiny whatsoever.

[AVGWarhawk]

I hope so does this one.

I hear 250k, 250k ok Do I hear 200k, 200k do I hear 200k, ok 150k, do I hear 150k, 150k, 150k going once, going twice. Sold to the stupid people who think im a savior !!!

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MzI3ODEyM2U4YWQxZDU4ZWQ5Yjk4YWNmZjIzM2U3NmY=

I wish I could edit my signature just for this thread, grrr.


People stop listening as soon as they hear "tax cut".... Obama's tax plan is fantasy and it will change 10 different times. It already is changing. Notice now Joe Biden is now No Biden? Obama does not need any more gaffs from the gaff man himself.

[AVGWarhawk]

No, this tape was brought to light this week. Your poll is from last week. They might be signing a different tune when the tape is fully disclosed but I'm guessing it will not be disclosed after a few phone calls from some very prominant people are made to the LA Times. ;)
And if this guy is no big deal......what does the Obama campaign and the Obamites at the LA Times have to fear.....right?? That's the big question that should raise some eyebrows. Or maybe they're afraid Biden's going to pitch a hissy fit and the Obama campaign will ban them from interviews like those TV stations. We do know Obama's campaign can't handle tough questions or any scrutiny whatsoever.

There is a reason they will not receive tough questions and any scrutiny. BTW, all valid questions Sea Demon.

[Sea Demon]

No, I bet the figures will be the same in the exit polls.
Anyway, that thread turned into a "slam Obama bis", the arguments about Khalidi are really ludicrous.

Nope. The questions regarding this man are quite valid. His own double speak on "resistance" is quite troubling. He has made other comments of the same variety that are never truly clarified. Nor does he seem outraged when a Palestinian walks into an open market and detonates a bomb strapped to his waist and kills Israeli citizens including children going about their business. Haven't seen any condemnations from him regarding that at all. Not a peep. And because we are at war against radical Islamist elements, I think this needs to be scrutinized much more heavily. Obama's connection to him is thusly very unfortunate and troubling all the same.