A new war has broken out: Russia (again) merged

[Type941]

Russia invaded Georgia. Took one town near Abhakazia, and this GORI base town in Georgia, 100km from Tbilisi.

So it goes on guys, I said this will end in Russia destroying Georgia state and so it happens while you faking debate whether EU and US needs to intervene.

Ah, and you know who russia sending there? Vostok and Zapad, the brutal Chechen baltallions who are not even controlled by chechen president and report to moscow. These guys are brutal. Peacekeepers my ass.

[1480]

Skybird: hang on a second! Making a blanket statement that it was the West's fault for Georgia putting itself in the position that it is, is ludicris. Can you back this up by factual evidence? Supposition does not make a court case.

You try to support the russian's actions because of a nonexistant threat to their national security theory. Even better, broadly proclaiming what the US would do if Canada became a ally with russia. Did you forget about Cuba? 330 miles or 612 km's away..... which is a lot closer threat then Russia is to Germany.

Then what WAS the Bay of Pigs thing. Or how about the whole Cuban Missile Crisis, which can be stated to be the US saying it is OK for them to use missiles to threaten the Soviet Union (including placing them in Turkey, and later on subs) but not for the Soviet Union to place missiles on their newfound ally's soil to threaten America. Might won them the day, but from a "right" angle...

And Cuba is a poor base to attack America, other than with IRBMs. The Baltics, Ukraine ... etc are great staging places to hit Russia in comparison - the only question is Will, and Will can be changed relatively easily.

The Bay of Pigs, the US got caught with it's hands in the cookie jar and unfortunately many died needlessly. An overt action would have been the prelude to WWIII. I put this into the category of perceived threat. Could we have let this one alone, absolutely. Did we need to be kingmakers, no. It was wrong then, but why isn't it wrong now?


Lets talk about the missile crisis, you are correct that there were missiles in Turkey, but a. they were obsolete b. 15 in number and c. Kennedy ordered their removal in 1961. Hindsight being as it is, the laziness of our airforce provided quid pro quo that let both leaders save face.

The soviets were shipping in 45 missiles which they claim was to be used for defensive purposes only for their new sister state. Okay.... plus 42, IL-28 bombers (not a defensive aircraft). You are correct about it being a poor base for ground troops, but it's really nice as you say for launching nukes or airstrikes.

This is a tangible threat. The missiles were real. This is not a matter of perception.

Georgia asking for admission to nato, which was DENIED, is a perceived threat that I will grant has a little basis in fact, yet it does not warrant the response that is currently occuring in Georgia.

[moose1am]

I really feel for you man. While I was born in the USA I too have very little say in what my Countires leaders do. We are in the same boat in that sense. We are just pawn in this big world.

It's our Countries leaders that control what happens in the world and we just have to play along and try to survive.

I too wish for peace and prosperity but as long as the world's 7 billion humans keep multiplying and using up the Worlds resources there will be human conflicts over what remains.

At least I am free to type this and not have to fear being shot down for what I think, say and or write.. At least not yet..

The timing of this attack to coincide with the start of the Olympic Games in China seems suspect.

Not sure what the USA or NATO can do right now. Other than try to help arm Georgia. Russian is blockading the Black Sea so the USA will have to fight it's way though those waters to give any Support to Georgia. That could start a WAR between the USA and Russia. Remember during WWII the US was involved in the Submarine War in the Atlantic with Germany long before Pearl Harbor occured. The German U- Boats were sinking American Ships off the Eastern Coast of America as we were using the LEND LEASE PROGRAM to support Western EUROPE and Britian. The US gave our older Destroyers to Britain to help them fight Nazi Germany back in 1939/40.

I will be watching this carefully to see what Bush/Cheney/McCain decide to do. Bush would be smart to consult with both Canidates for the Presidency but he won't have to. He could get the USA into a Shooting War and then leave the mess to the next President to sort out.

Unless the USA has a vital interest in Georgia they probably won't act but will just speak out about it at the UN.


ype941]I hope CCIP or some other Russian might have a word on this.
Sofar, this thread has been hijacked by the pathological anti-russian crowd.


What happened sofar (IMHO).
Yesterday morning, the georgian army made a classical, soviet-style frontal assault on Zinchvali, using at least serveral Grad rocket launchers, Su-25s armed with unguided rockets and most likely conventional artillery, followed by a combined mechanized infantry-armour assault, which apparently was successful, albeit with losses.


I AM Russian, see my post above! I'm not anti Russian per say, but whatever the monster that is sitting in the government right now is not something I want at all. I think they killed all human freedoms, they got clever over time and now trying to use modern media for propaganda.

You may be right about poland - some past history clouds judgement. But hey, no smoke without fire. Russia has done this before, and while the west put it straight for 15 years, it is now back stronger then ever. All its history it just can't live peacefully with neighbours. My theory it's the nation itself that's to blame - it is a crazy mix of Mongolian savagery with western like thinking. So when things break down, you get this - lying, decietful government that is ****less scared and insecure and uses all the force it has to crush a tiny republic while world watches a circus in another 'free' country - China.

I say this. If the west doesn't step up - Russia will reel in all soviet territories back slowly but surely. Ukraine or Baltics are next and I live in Baltics so to me this is serious issue.

yes, Georgia perhaps retaliated unwisely. But Russia then invaded it. Bombing its ports, etc. I think you guys really need to snap out of it and realize WHAT you all dealing with. West has only one weakness - money. As long as Russia lets them make money, it won't to ****.

I think however that this concept, that a nuclear power has a right to just bomb a small country for no reason is absolutely awful. USA needs to really step up - if it wants to dominate world scene in politics, it has to also bear the responsibility that comes with it. One of which is including keeping in check country leaders that don't have a clue what they are doing. USA NEEDS to do it because Russian people themselves have no way of controlling what Medevev, Putin or whoever is doing while in office. NO CONTROL whatsover. If thsi don't scare you - only a real war at your doorstep will and the way Russian foreign policy is - it might happen.

I say let the outcry get stronger and shame Russia into withdrawal and make this an issue. Postone the stupid games as well, I don't care if the overpaid primadonnas will wait for 30 days. This is more important. Much more.[/QUOTE]

[Type941]

comon now it's irrelevant. Russian tanks rolling into main Georgia terrirotory, chechen spetznaz is used to check forrests for snipers, etc. This is Russia invading Georgia.

[Diopos]

to Moose1am:
Interesting theory! Russians can't govern themselves so let the US do it.
Eh?
:damn: :damn: :damn: :damn:

[joea]

And since you asked what i kind of expect - i expect EU and NATO and USA to send a ton of AA guns to georgia to allow them to shoot down every single facking aircraft that is molesting their airspace. At least that would be a start!

Wow dude, are you really Russian? Sorry to ask, I recall you taking a different tack a couple of years ago...anyway whatever I think of Putin (notice how he still is seen much more in the public eye then the actual President ;) ) Shakashvili was still stupid to initiate the conflict now and is still a US puppet.

The shortsighted Kosovo intervention is coming to bite us all in the a**. :nope:

[STEED]

Has anyone noticed the Russian hardware?

T-80's and BMP1's along with other stuff which is clearly not top of the line, makes you wonder where there top of the line stuff is? Maybe Chechnya or well I will let you decide on that one. ;)

[Type941]

And since you asked what i kind of expect - i expect EU and NATO and USA to send a ton of AA guns to georgia to allow them to shoot down every single facking aircraft that is molesting their airspace. At least that would be a start!
Wow dude, are you really Russian? Sorry to ask, I recall you taking a different tack a couple of years ago...anyway whatever I think of Putin (notice how he still is seen much more in the public eye then the actual President ;) ) Shakashvili was still stupid to initiate the conflict now and is still a US puppet.

The shortsighted Kosovo intervention is coming to bite us all in the a**. :nope:


How can you compare Kosovo? Musilms being butchered in thousands by Milosevic, 2millino population, almost a country vs a 70000 enclave in mountains ??!! It's not the same, how can you compare all conflicts and put them all in line. They all are different, Kosovo is different.

yeah im russian, but what's happening is basically the end of Russia in long term - it will end like Nazi germany if it goes on like this - in RUINS. Their policy is gonna meet some kind of response at some stage, not now, no no, but at some stage it will and people will pay and that is what scares me. There will be no Russia of Solzhenitsin, Dostoevskij, Tolstoj, Pushkin - there is Putin Russia that will end up in some stupid world conflict because the sobs counldn't get over some complexes.

World is a grown up and russia is acting like a boy who is bully. all arguments russia is making are like 'he started it' and 'they did it first' and 'i only do what you did'. And it's hard to deal with bad kids for adults. And point is - kid WILL NOT grow up.

So all they saying now is that they have taken Gori, and another airport near POTI. So Russia is occupying country and same time telling you from TV they are making PEACE operation.

COMON!

[joea]

Dude, whatever yea Russia has to grow up but the whole Kosovo thing reeked of hypocrisy just like the Russians are showing now. I don't know what the minimum size for an independent state is but all I am saying is blame lies outside as well as inside. You really can't take the Georgian president seriously can you?? I am actually not that far from your opinion in any case I just do not think Russia is the new 3rd Reich or something.

[Steel_Tomb]

Guys a BBC film crew was strafed with missiles by a Su-25 today, was pretty damn close. So much for a "peacekeeping" operation. Surely in a peacekeeping role aircraft would ID before engaging? Its not as if they were firing at it! Can you imagine what would happen if they were injured/killed? Christ :damn:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7552958.stm

[Happy Times]

And since you asked what i kind of expect - i expect EU and NATO and USA to send a ton of AA guns to georgia to allow them to shoot down every single facking aircraft that is molesting their airspace. At least that would be a start!
Wow dude, are you really Russian? Sorry to ask, I recall you taking a different tack a couple of years ago...anyway whatever I think of Putin (notice how he still is seen much more in the public eye then the actual President ;) ) Shakashvili was still stupid to initiate the conflict now and is still a US puppet.

The shortsighted Kosovo intervention is coming to bite us all in the a**. :nope:


How can you compare Kosovo? Musilms being butchered in thousands by Milosevic, 2millino population, almost a country vs a 70000 enclave in mountains ??!! It's not the same, how can you compare all conflicts and put them all in line. They all are different, Kosovo is different.

yeah im russian, but what's happening is basically the end of Russia in long term - it will end like Nazi germany if it goes on like this - in RUINS. Their policy is gonna meet some kind of response at some stage, not now, no no, but at some stage it will and people will pay and that is what scares me. There will be no Russia of Solzhenitsin, Dostoevskij, Tolstoj, Pushkin - there is Putin Russia that will end up in some stupid world conflict because the sobs counldn't get over some complexes.

World is a grown up and russia is acting like a boy who is bully. all arguments russia is making are like 'he started it' and 'they did it first' and 'i only do what you did'. And it's hard to deal with bad kids for adults. And point is - kid WILL NOT grow up.

So all they saying now is that they have taken Gori, and another airport near POTI. So Russia is occupying country and same time telling you from TV they are making PEACE operation.

COMON!

He has a right to change his wiews, if all the Russian people could analyze their country like this there wouldnt be wars.. There are very much good aspects in Russians culture and individual people are very hospitable, but the draconian rule is widely accepted and expected by the people. This has historical roots but it is also other nations that suffer the consequences. And i dont have any racial superiority thoughts like someone accused, by blood we are very much related, but racist thoughts are very popular on the Russian side. This is a clash of cultures, between democracies and rule of law against totalitarianism and imperialism. I welcome every Russian that respects our values and and maybe feels persecuted in Russia to take refuge here, we have given that to many journalists allready.

[Type941]

:doh:

http://www.metimes.com/International/2008/08/11/special_report_kuwait_readying_for_war_in_gulf/7724/

Today apparently a large group of ships is going into Gulf.

On reedit.com I read yesterday about Ron Paul being convinced that USA is about to go to war with Iran - its decided and is matter of when not if... The speculation is that Russia will trade Georgia for Iran. So Russia will be allowed to trash Georgia and take it over, while Iran is gonna get a full bombing campaign the kind noone seen before, and nukes are ON the table. Paranoia? Who knows, but the fleet is moving.:hmm:

Obviously Israel is gonna do the attack, US fleet will block the Gulf to ensure Iran can't disrupt oil flow. If this is true and Putin and Bush agreed on this, these idiots will have our children living in forrests. I think it's not secret that the war plan on Iran has been ready. Europe is gonna be quite shocked at all of this but if French and Biritsh ships are there... whoa. Russia can keep its Geeorgia oil pipelines if we get all of Iran oil.. daamn conspiracy theories.

[Steel_Tomb]

If you look at all the political tensions going on around the world, troubles in Tibet, the Gulf, Eastern Europe/Georgia... things are getting quite sensitive around the world now. There was an ultimatum issued to Iran to comply or face "consequences" if they continued with their nuclear program. If this fleet is heading to the Gulf, it would seem that something is afoot gentlemen. People are talking about the opening ceremony of the 2012 Olympics... I just hope we're still left to enjoy it, I'm getting quite worried with the global situation.:-?

[Type941]

I just hope we're still left to enjoy it, I'm getting quite worried with the global situation.:-?

aye aye. hope the muzafakers we let rule our countries will think that when they go to bed at night...

[Konovalov]

There was an ultimatum issued to Iran to comply or face "consequences" if they continued with their nuclear program. If this fleet is heading to the Gulf, it would seem that something is afoot gentlemen.

Simply parking a carrier battle group off the coast can do the trick without having to resort to actual force. :yep: Perhaps we are all getting ahead of ourselves a little bit here.

[Tchocky]

I can see a CVBG doing a lot of damage to the situation even if it just sits there. Imagine if the Iranian Navy sailed a few gunboats past Hampton Roads.

Anyway, Iran's got lots of C-802 missiles and SA-10 defence systems. A tough one.

[NefariousKoel]

We have to agree to disagree on who started it, the facts is that the russians shelled for weeks to get them to move into Ossetia. It was a trap.

It's not much use trying to tell Skybird that he's bought into the Russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

To many, it's pretty plain how Russia has gone about constructing this, but he's in his own world.

[Type941]

Time will tell if Iran is gonna be involved into this equation. Georgia called for UN council again.

[Happy Times]

We have to agree to disagree on who started it, the facts is that the russians shelled for weeks to get them to move into Ossetia. It was a trap.

It's not much use trying to tell Skybird that he's bought into the Russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

To many, it's pretty plain how Russia has gone about constructing this, but he's in his own world.

I dont think he is the type that buys to propaganda, even that we disagree on this issue, im sure he has formed his opinion from various sources, its just different of mine.
I do feel his cynicism goes to far in that democratic countries should be left to mercy of Russia, to faciltate its needs of puppet regimes on its borders. If they want a new cold war and some proxy wars, that whats they should get, they will loose again.

[Type941]

We have to agree to disagree on who started it, the facts is that the russians shelled for weeks to get them to move into Ossetia. It was a trap.
It's not much use trying to tell Skybird that he's bought into the Russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

To many, it's pretty plain how Russia has gone about constructing this, but he's in his own world.
I dont think he is the type that buys to propaganda, even that we disagree on this issue, im sure he has formed his opinion from various sources, its just different of mine.
I do feel his cynicism goes to far in that democratic countries should be left to mercy of Russia, to faciltate its needs of puppet regimes on its borders. If they want a new cold war and some proxy wars, that whats they should get, they will loose again.

well said.

[Steel_Tomb]

I agree, it seems that Russia has completely reverted to its Cold War mentality. Its not healthy, makes you wonder if the USA will begin to reinforce the EU with US units similar to Cold War placements in the UK and Germany. Especially if the heat is turned up on Ukraine and other Eastern Europe nations. Its been said before, and I'll repeat it again. History repeats itself, and every time people seem as oblivious to whats happening as they were the first time around.

Going back to Germany's relationship with Russia. Would you say that Russia, with its business with Germany, effectively destroyed it (figuratively speaking) as a solid NATO member? I remember from reading Red Storm Rising that Russia's plan to breaking NATO was to remove Germany as a solid, trusted member of the alliance. Might seem silly to reference real world events to a story, but I can see some relevance to it in the real world today. Do you agree?

[Happy Times]

I agree, it seems that Russia has completely reverted to its Cold War mentality. Its not healthy, makes you wonder if the USA will begin to reinforce the EU with US units similar to Cold War placements in the UK and Germany. Especially if the heat is turned up on Ukraine and other Eastern Europe nations. Its been said before, and I'll repeat it again. History repeats itself, and every time people seem as oblivious to whats happening as they were the first time around.

Going back to Germany's relationship with Russia. Would you say that Russia, with its business with Germany, effectively destroyed it (figuratively speaking) as a solid NATO member? I remember from reading Red Storm Rising that Russia's plan to breaking NATO was to remove Germany as a solid, trusted member of the alliance. Might seem silly to reference real world events to a story, but I can see some relevance to it in the real world today. Do you agree?

Shortly, yes.

[Oberon]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7554507.stm


Russian troops have entered Georgia from the breakaway region of Abkhazia


Aww crap :down:

[1480]

I was looking over the new news posted above about fleets being sent to the gulf, states US, British and French units are involved. I found this tidbit from 2006 kind of interesting:





Continued dependency on foreign oil could pose problems if future Middle Eastern regimes are not as cooperative, such as Osama bin Laden's assertion that he would cut Saudi oil production if he were in charge. It's possible other countries also could restrict the flow of oil to the U.S., Woolsey said.

That's the tactic Woolsey said he would use against Iran, which is shrugging off international concerns about its nuclear ambitions.
Iran produces about 4 million barrels of oil a day, most of which it exports. The country imports nearly all of its refined petroleum products -- such as gasoline and diesel fuel -- from Europe and India.

"And I think the thing that would bring the Iranian government and economy to its knees, quite quickly, would not be a cut-off of their exports of unrefined petroleum (but to ban) their imports of refined petroleum products," Woolsey said.



Anyone know which European countr(y)ies involved? Not rhetorical, haven't been
able to find that out.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/cityregion/s_449468.html

[Konovalov]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7554507.stm


Russian troops have entered Georgia from the breakaway region of Abkhazia


Aww crap :down:

Russia really is starting to take the pee now. I watched some Russian Govt guy in Moscow interviewed by Channel 4 News saying that these are nothing more than peace keeping units. :roll:

[Type941]

I agree, it seems that Russia has completely reverted to its Cold War mentality. Its not healthy, makes you wonder if the USA will begin to reinforce the EU with US units similar to Cold War placements in the UK and Germany. Especially if the heat is turned up on Ukraine and other Eastern Europe nations. Its been said before, and I'll repeat it again. History repeats itself, and every time people seem as oblivious to whats happening as they were the first time around.

Going back to Germany's relationship with Russia. Would you say that Russia, with its business with Germany, effectively destroyed it (figuratively speaking) as a solid NATO member? I remember from reading Red Storm Rising that Russia's plan to breaking NATO was to remove Germany as a solid, trusted member of the alliance. Might seem silly to reference real world events to a story, but I can see some relevance to it in the real world today. Do you agree?

funny enough, i re read RSR just few months ago, after having read it first time in 1994. yeah, it was smth like breaking the NATO unity, taking Germany out first and everyone else will ask for peace or smth like that.

but i think russia is not as crude and old thinking oponent as it used to be. it learned quite much of western tactics and doesn't have a population anymore that hates the governemnt. at home its super popular.

but yes, I think that new cold war is about to start with all this going on. Georgia is pretty much given up by the West by now and that place is done for for 10 years or whatever it will take to rebuild-retake it into West or overthrow the soon to come russian puppet government. I wonder how they will pull it through though since now most population must hate russians with vengence.

[Type941]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7554507.stm


Russian troops have entered Georgia from the breakaway region of Abkhazia


Aww crap :down:
Russia really is starting to take the pee now. I watched some Russian Govt guy in Moscow interviewed by Channel 4 News saying that these are nothing more than peace keeping units. :roll:

Ivanov probably. Very cynical guy, laughing loudly saying through teeth 'the so called democratic beacon in the region' and really just very much looking down at everyone and taking a piss at the West. Amazing how spineless we all become in face of this sh-t.

[NefariousKoel]

I dont think he is the type that buys to propaganda, even that we disagree on this issue, im sure he has formed his opinion from various sources, its just different of mine.
I do feel his cynicism goes too far in that democratic countries should be left to mercy of Russia, to faciltate its needs of puppet regimes on its borders. If they want a new cold war and some proxy wars, that whats they should get, they will loose again.

Nicely said.

[OneToughHerring]

No your starting to twist FACTS. Finland had an DEMOCRATICALLY elected goverment that Bolsevik backed and armed Reds Guards tried to overthrow. It was orchestrated from Russia and thousands of Russian troops took part, that is why it is called War of Independence.The Red deaths are well documented, you dont know what you are talking about. http://vesta.narc.fi/cgi-bin/db2www/sotasurmaetusivu/main?lang=fi
I hope you are not in purposely trying to distort the truth..And that is the foundation this country is built on, there wouldnt be Finland if we would have lost then.
Are you a Red?
Could you show me a link that clarifies what you exactly mean by overthrow attempt so I'll know what you mean. And yes, as your link shows many Reds died and their bodies are still missing buried who knows where.

Are you lying or are you just ignorant? FACTS!:damn: WHEN WERE WE WITH CAHOOTS WITH THE NAZIS BEFORE -41??? The Nazis prevented arms shipments from other countries to Finland during Winter War, ever heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact!?!
They did try to invade the whole country! Finland was never occupied! There was no unconditional surrender!
Finland doesnt recognize the military aspects of the treaty anymore, not since the USSR brake up! Do i have to dig up the numerous sources for you to get these FACTS?
Are you ignorant or indoctrinated?
The political ties to Nazi-Germany were well established by -41. Oh yea sure, Stalin sends a bunch of Ukrainians in summer clothes, what a great 'invasion'. They probably would've frozen to death on their own anyway. I think it's safe to say that Soviet Unions intrests were somewhere else by that time, and even after the war when they could've placed a pro-Soviet government to Finland they never did so.

I said the their goal was annexation but not with ALL cost! They had to consider what US, UK and France would do had there been an invasion attempt right after the war.
They tried to infiltrate Finland untill the Soviet collapse, they never gave up on the ultimate goal of annexation. These arent something im making up, these are FACTS that historians have found on Soviet documents and interviewed people! Im really pissed you come here and spill your pseudo history to the world:damn:
Well I've read many books about history too and I know that the Soviets were never really that interested in Finland. Maybe this is what Finns don't want to hear, that we were infact more or less irrelevant to Soviets. Maybe being insignificant is worse than being the target of a sinister plan.

I'm not saying the Soviets were saints, far from it. It's just that their main interestes were elsewhere both in WW 2 and also in the Cold War. Finns just tend to think that Soviets did nothing but plotted the overthrow of Finnish society because hey, who wouldn't want to take over this swampy, mosquito infested country with horrible weather.

I clearly see where your symphaties are:nope:
Well I'm not the one who wants to buy nukes. Btw be carefull when you go nuke-shopping, I hear there's this guy called George who's a little trigger happy when it comes to folks he thinks might have WMD's. :D

Anyway, maybe there should be a separate thread for ancient WW2 - stuff, not sure it's right to have this debate in this thread.

[sergbuto]

Interesting bit of information. Since August 8 around 30 000 of South Ossetians sought refuge in North Ossetia which is about half of the current population of South Ossetia and higher refugee percentage than in case of Kosovo. This tells me that Ossetians (having fresh memories of 1991) had no illusion about "good intensions" by Georgia.

[mapuc]

I haven't red avery posting in this thread.

I know a way to stop this war, almost right now.

Place american, englich, french and other NATO-soldies around strategics places in Georgia

The shall NOT seek confrontration with russian soldies, but give a clear signal to Kreml.

Markus

[goldorak]

I haven't red avery posting in this thread.

I know a way to stop this war, almost right now.

Place american, englich, french and other NATO-soldies around strategics places in Georgia

The shall NOT seek confrontration with russian soldies, but give a clear signal to Kreml.

Markus

You want europe to enter in a state of war with russia ? :huh:

[mapuc]

I haven't red avery posting in this thread.

I know a way to stop this war, almost right now.

Place american, englich, french and other NATO-soldies around strategics places in Georgia

The shall NOT seek confrontration with russian soldies, but give a clear signal to Kreml.

Markus

You want europe to enter in a state of war with russia ? :huh:

NO! I just don't thing that the russian is interested in a conflict with the NATO or do they?

I'm absolutly convinced, that the russian think, that we in the west, do nothing but just talk and talk and talk a.s.o

Markus

[Steel_Tomb]

No I think he means that we should station troops in the area, but to act as guardians, or peace keepers (lol, peacekeeping force to manage a peacekeeping force). Russia will not want to draw itself into a wider conflict with the EU, not yet anyway! Therefore they will want to avoid attacking these troops. In a way it would be like putting a barrier between the Ruskies and the Georgians, stopping the fighting. Or thats the plan anyway, the reds could just go straight through the lot of them and spark a much bigger war than is currently involved in at the moment. Either way, it won't happen. The wider EU community doesn't REALLY want to get involved with this. They will do it for political reasons to APPEAR to give a ****, but in reality I doubt they would really care if Georgia was just abosrbed into the new Sovietesque Russian Federation. Which is a shame, because at the moment the EU community are the only people who carry the keys to ending this conflict, the yanks simply have too much on their plate to be able to really make any difference in Georgia than just the occasional political statement like G W Bush did about 20 minutes ago.

[mapuc]

No I think he means that we should station troops in the area, but to act as guardians, or peace keepers (lol, peacekeeping force to manage a peacekeeping force). Russia will not want to draw itself into a wider conflict with the EU, not yet anyway! Therefore they will want to avoid attacking these troops. In a way it would be like putting a barrier between the Ruskies and the Georgians, stopping the fighting. Or thats the plan anyway, the reds could just go straight through the lot of them and spark a much bigger war than is currently involved in at the moment. Either way, it won't happen. The wider EU community doesn't REALLY want to get involved with this. They will do it for political reasons to APPEAR to give a ****, but in reality I doubt they would really care if Georgia was just abosrbed into the new Sovietesque Russian Federation. Which is a shame, because at the moment the EU community are the only people who carry the keys to ending this conflict, the yanks simply have too much on their plate to be able to really make any difference in Georgia than just the occasional political statement like G W Bush did about 20 minutes ago.

THANK YOU Steel_Tomb my english is not perfect.

But this is exactly what I ment

Markus

[Skybird]

Many pseudo-intellectual flatulences in here since my last visit. I think I stay out as long as some of you (Moose, 1490, Type941, Koel) have not vented your minds and thoughts. It smells of self-bias, double-standards, nationalism, self-justification, moral hypocrisy and denial of reality. Others already have understood me anyway, no matter if agreeing or disagreeing.

[AntEater]

All these guys are entitled to their opinion. Future will show to what extend they're right or wrong.
OTOH I think it is sad that we couldn't just simply follow events here and try to analyze them, like they do on other message boards like ACIG.
The greatest verbal flatulence was by GWB himself. He took for granted every panicky statement from Tbilisi.
But even if he assumed that these would be the Russian goals, then you'd expected a much stronger response.
I have the strong feeling the only briefing his staff could offer Dubya was CNN.
In a way, it scares me how marginalized the US seems to be in the current crisis.
They were caught unprepared by Georgia's move, do not seem to have any reliable intelligence sources in country and generally seem to leavy the diplomatic field to Europe.
Sorry, but even if you're anti-russian, you've got to be disappointed from official Washington.
This is not how a superpower should react to events. I hope it is only due to the fact that GWB is allready mentally out of office.
Even if I'm usually critical of the US and have a bit of a pro russian view, the US is the leader of NATO, so they should lead. Instead, they react.
Both candidates and their advisory teams issued for more decisive statements on these issues than official Washington did.
This is a huge test for the EU, lets see if Sarko and Kouchner are up to it.

[Skybird]

All these guys are entitled to their opinion. Future will show to what extend they're right or wrong.
OTOH I think it is sad that we couldn't just simply follow events here and try to analyze them, like they do on other message boards like ACIG.
Indeed. That is a quality that is sometimes missing at this board. Some more stoizism eventually would work wonders. :)

[Konovalov]

Many pseudo-intellectual flatulences
:lol: This is a classic line. Hope you don't mind me morrowing it in future.

BBC reporter in Georgia has reported increasing criticism by it's own citizens of how the Georgian Govt has handled this crisis.

I feel that the Georgian President has dealt his own nation an almost suicidal blow and that Putin with his Russian stooges are only too willing to assist. Assisted state suicide.

[mapuc]

Okey I do understand that only a few subsimers hafe the right attitude regarding almost everything.

Sorry that I post my idea in this thread.

Markus

[Skybird]

Assisted state suicide.

:lol: That is a classic line in return!


Okey I do understand that only a few subsimers hafe the right attitude regarding almost everything.

Sorry that I post my idea in this thread.

Markus
Is your name 1490, Type941, Moose or Koel? Or have you yelled at me lately? No? Why do you feel adressed, then?

[Oberon]

Okey I do understand that only a few subsimers hafe the right attitude regarding almost everything.

Sorry that I post my idea in this thread.

Markus

It's not you mate, it's those who can't seperate their emotions from their posting, which at a time like this is sadly understandable, there are going to be raised emotions and people are going to shout and scream at each other and call each other names. I've seen a lot worse than this in other forums right now, but even so, it's still at odds with the general attitude we strive to keep in this forum. So, as I have pleaded many times already, let's keep this civil, keep it to the facts, state WHERE the facts are from (because right now there's so much Georgian and Russian propaganda floating around that half of what comes out of the area is bull) and then we can muse over what that might mean. There's no need to declare that Russia is moving to take over the world, that's a subject for another thread, right here, is the war in Georgia...I would say South Ossetia but it seems that it's spreading outside of that. I have heard, but cannot find a source at the moment, that US planes have been used to ship Georgian troops back from Iraq to Georgia. But like I said, I cannot find confirmation of that at this moment in time. Trust but verify, as it is said.

[baggygreen]

Okey I do understand that only a few subsimers hafe the right attitude regarding almost everything.

Sorry that I post my idea in this thread.

Markusyou oughtnt apologise for posting your thoughts.

[mapuc]

Assisted state suicide.

:lol: That is a classic line in return!


Okey I do understand that only a few subsimers hafe the right attitude regarding almost everything.

Sorry that I post my idea in this thread.

Markus
Is your name 1490, Type941, Moose or Koel? Or have you yelled at me lately? No? Why do you feel adressed, then?

Don't know, somehow I just did.

it was some words in your posting

"Many pseudo-intellectual flatulences in here since my last visit. I think I stay out as long as some of you (Moose, 1490, Type941, Koel) have not vented your minds and thoughts. It smells of self-bias, double-standards, nationalism, self-justification, moral hypocrisy and denial of reality. Others already have understood me anyway, no matter if agreeing or disagreeing."

those words hi-lighted

Markus

[baggygreen]

Okey I do understand that only a few subsimers hafe the right attitude regarding almost everything.

Sorry that I post my idea in this thread.

Markus
It's not you mate, it's those who can't seperate their emotions from their posting, which at a time like this is sadly understandable, there are going to be raised emotions and people are going to shout and scream at each other and call each other names. I've seen a lot worse than this in other forums right now, but even so, it's still at odds with the general attitude we strive to keep in this forum. So, as I have pleaded many times already, let's keep this civil, keep it to the facts, state WHERE the facts are from (because right now there's so much Georgian and Russian propaganda floating around that half of what comes out of the area is bull) and then we can muse over what that might mean. There's no need to declare that Russia is moving to take over the world, that's a subject for another thread, right here, is the war in Georgia...I would say South Ossetia but it seems that it's spreading outside of that. I have heard, but cannot find a source at the moment, that US planes have been used to ship Georgian troops back from Iraq to Georgia. But like I said, I cannot find confirmation of that at this moment in time. Trust but verify, as it is said.I've seen that in aussie news reports too. Best hope the russians wont bomb the airports in Tblisi while the US heavy lifters are in and around the area. Putin might be nuts, but not even he is stupid enough to risk hitting US aircraft by mistake

[AntEater]

Rationally
Despite panicky reports from Tbilisi, it seems to me that Russia is not marching on the capital.
Either the georgians completely lost it or they indulge in a reverse of comical Ali (instead of "I can assure you there are no american tanks in Baghdad", they say "I can assure you there are russian Tanks in Gori").
American military sources suggested the georgian C3 network is completely broken down and the military command has "lost the picture" of what happened.
They know that advancing on georgia proper is the line apparently set by the west for Russia, so they try everything to gain at least short term support by reporting russia crossed it.
Actually Russia did cross it, but temporarily. Paratroopers apparently made a raid on Senaki, passing through Sugdidi. A reconaissance unit apparently made reconnoitered Poti. But that apparently was the extent of russian advances on georgian soil.
This raid however shows that Georgia apparently concentrated on Ossetia and pretty much thinned out the Abkhazian front.
A hostile force normally does not simply drive 40 km (even more for the recon unit) through enemy territory and back in just a few hourse in a war.

These are from russian sources, but sofar they proved more reliable than georgian ones.
The russians are generally spreading a lot of BS regarding the political aims (calling the forces "peacekeepers" in a shooting war) but seem to be quite factual on military matters.
At least their reports make sense, if you do not naturally assume they're evil anyway.

[baggygreen]

Actually Russia did cross it, but temporarily. Paratroopers apparently made a raid on Senaki, passing through Sugdidi. A reconaissance unit apparently made reconnoitered Poti. But that apparently was the extent of russian advances on georgian soil.
This raid however shows that Georgia apparently concentrated on Ossetia and pretty much thinned out the Abkhazian front.
A hostile force normally does not simply drive 40 km (even more for the recon unit) through enemy territory and back in just a few hourse in a war.
I'm not quite sure i follow you properly here ant, so please, ingulge me if im coming across as slow.

I hadnt heard about Poti yet, but Poti is on the western coast, and ossetia is in the east. Thats a heck of an advance, even if it was only a recon unit!

The other thing i dont quite folow is your line A hostile force normally does not simply drive 40 km (even more for the recon unit) through enemy territory and back in just a few hourse in a war. If you've got up to date intel via satellite or whatever, you know the roads/tracks/scrub ahead is clear, then quick movement is your friend, particularly the recon unit..

[AntEater]

They came from Abkhazia, the other conflict zone.
There, seperatists and russian paratroopers have apparently bottled up georgian forces in a valley and demand their surrender. This valley belongs to Abkhazia, but was seized by Georgia 2006.
The russians now have two divisions, the 19th motor-rifle in south Ossetia and the 76th airborne in Abkhazia, reinforcing the 13th indep. Motor-Rifle brigade allready there.
The georgian ORBAT seems to be totally unclear, maybe even to the georgians themselves.
It is known for which prewar district which brigade was responsible, but that is about it.
Georgia has five regular infantry brigades (one in iraq until yesterday) and a seperate tank battalion. I don't know what the reserve units are.

Interestingly, the russians brought up the Vostok GRU speznaz battalion to Ossetia.
This units is comprised of Chechens...
"Speznaz" is this chase apparently means not a special forces unit in the western sense, it is more a (very brutal) rear area security force than a real specops unit. I suppose a psychological move, since most ex USSR citizens are scared ****less of chechens.

regarding the media and sources:
German public TV channels ARD and ZDF have people on the ground on both sides, especially ZDF who has a correspondent with the staff of the 19th division in Zinchvali, who is apparently the only western journalist there.
Normally I'm highly critical of our equivalent to the BBC but on this conflict they're doing a great job.
The BBC seems very cautious, but not as well informed as it normally is.
CNN just repeats every georgian report without paying much attention to russian sources.

Russian news sources: Well, I don't speak russian so I can only use english language services like Russiatoday or Ria Nowosti, but it seems they are not quite prepared for a media war.
Especially since they appear to be running strict business hours and are usually much slower to react on developments.

[Skybird]

the russians want to demonstrate total milizary superiority. For that reason, they will eventually advance to tiblis as well - juts to show that they can, and that georgia can do nothing to prevent that.

They will not accept anything less than humiliating terms of surrender or cease-fire. This is because they want to deliver a crushing penalty to shaakashvili, who really overplayed his cards, by that not only lecturing him, but damaging him so that he can never raise to become such an obstacle again.

the at least temporary occupation of Georgia is a possebility. but if they do that I doubt it would be meant to last, and would be done only long enough to install a more cooperative regime. Western influence with the prospect of a NATO foothold in that region they will brand out with all force needed, that is for sure. A return of South Ossetia and Abchasia under georgian government can be skipped of the table as well - no chance anymore.

Militarily, the opening of a second front make sense. It increases your operational freedoms. what people in the west do not seem to fully understand is that Russia treats this as a full war, not just as some operation diplomats have so many different words for in order to avpoid the forbidden w-word. And thus russia implements the logic of war, tactics of war, and rules of war, and superior firepower were possible. Which I would do, too, when waging war. Who would not?

The Guaridan reports the Geogian govenment still calls for intervention of the West. Did they seriously expect there would be NATO troops being send in an effort to defend their gamble three days ago? I am still stunned by the obvious stupidity and unscrupelousness and lacking sense of reality and responsibility of this gang. If Georgians are clever, they forget btheir nationalistic sentiments and chase them away all by themselves. that would be a deed worth to be done for the sake of their nation.

Bush meanwhile called the action of Russia "inadequate in the 21st century". Well, it is the right guy claiming that, isn't it. :lol: All he will earn with that statement in Moscow is scorn and derision.

Has anyone any idea by which measurements Russia could be threatned with consequences that hurt them more than the West? So far I could not imagine a single one. Everything coming to my mind would either do nothing, or cause us more harm than them. Military treaties, diplomaitc relation, economic cooperation, energy - they are in the stronger position. And only a lunatic could take war against Russia seriously into account.

[Konovalov]

The russians are generally spreading a lot of BS regarding the political aims (calling the forces "peacekeepers" in a shooting war)

The new buzz term from Russia appears to be "peace-enforcement". :roll:

And I have seen camera footage on BBC Newsnight of Georgian troops (still in desert camo) disembarking from a unmarked transport plane that looks like a C17. Apparently bombs landed at this airport only 30 mins prior to the cargo plane landing. The Georgian troops that have returned from Iraq look weary to say the least but who could blame them having just flown back into their country in the midst of such a grave crisis.

[1480]

All these guys are entitled to their opinion. Future will show to what extend they're right or wrong.
OTOH I think it is sad that we couldn't just simply follow events here and try to analyze them, like they do on other message boards like ACIG.
Indeed. That is a quality that is sometimes missing at this board. Some more stoizism eventually would work wonders. :)

@ Skyburd, :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: ..... so in the real world, it's ok to sacrifice citizens for the common good of the government? It's ok to turn a blind eye to the bully and let them beat the daylights out of the idiot (though he may have had it coming)? Peacekeeping is another word for invasionary force? Defense equals advancement?

The Russian government (and I apologize for using russians, do not want to imply that the citizens had anything to do with this mess) is using the same line of reasoning that the UN used for Kosovo, almost down to the same wording. They throw things out just to get a reaction then they adjust it so it sounds a bit better. Their PR people are a lot better then they were back in the USSR days but how can you trust anything out of the Krelim, oh yeah, I forgot, you idependently sift through and form your own opinion. Kind of like we all do.

The thing that I find most humorous of the whole situation, the Russian government was much better at lying back in the day. You get three different stories each time their big three talk to the media. One thing I've learned, as long as you stick to the same script, no jury in the world is going to convict you.

And lastly comparing another person's thoughts to a bodily function is juvenile at the very least. If you want to do that, you know my pm.

[Happy Times]

No your starting to twist FACTS. Finland had an DEMOCRATICALLY elected goverment that Bolsevik backed and armed Reds Guards tried to overthrow. It was orchestrated from Russia and thousands of Russian troops took part, that is why it is called War of Independence.The Red deaths are well documented, you dont know what you are talking about. http://vesta.narc.fi/cgi-bin/db2www/sotasurmaetusivu/main?lang=fi
I hope you are not in purposely trying to distort the truth..And that is the foundation this country is built on, there wouldnt be Finland if we would have lost then.
Are you a Red?
Could you show me a link that clarifies what you exactly mean by overthrow attempt so I'll know what you mean. And yes, as your link shows many Reds died and their bodies are still missing buried who knows where.

Otto Ville (Wilhelm) Kuusinen was a Finnish and Soviet politician, literature historian, and poet, who after the defeat in the Finnish Civil War fled to the Soviet Union, where he worked until his death.

After toppling the more moderate party chairman J. K. Kari in 1906, Kuusinen came to dominate Finland's Social Democratic Party. He was the leader of the January 1918 revolution in Finland that created the short-lived Finnish Socialist Workers' Republic. After the republic was defeated in the Finnish Civil War in 1918, Kuusinen fled to Moscow and helped form the Finnish Communist Party. He was member of Finland's Parliament 1908–1913 and the party's chairman 1911–1917.

He continued his work as a prominent leader of the Comintern in Bolshevist Russia, that soon became the Soviet Union. In Finland, a more moderate faction rehabilitated the Social Democrats under Väinö Tanner's leadership. Meanwhile, Kuusinen and other radicals were increasingly seen as responsible for the Civil War and its aftermath.

Animosity towards Socialists in Finland in the decades after the Civil War prompted many Finns to emigrate to Russia to "build Socialism." However, the Soviet Great Purge was a hard blow against Finns in the Soviet Union — most of those who didn't escape back to Finland were executed as unreliables in the 1930s — and Kuusinen's reputation in Finland was further damaged when he turned out to remain one of the very few not targeted by Stalinist show trials, deportations and executions.

When the Red Army began its advance during Winter War on November 30, 1939, he was pronounced head of the Terijoki Government, Stalin's puppet régime (of the so-called Finnish Democratic Republic) intended to rule the captured Finland. But as the war did not go as planned, and a negotiated peace with the Finnish government became unavoidable for the Soviet leadership, Kuusinen was put aside and made chairman of the presidium of Supreme Soviet of the Karelo-Finnish SSR (1940–1956).

Already suspect, Kuusinen's involvement in the Terijoki government sealed his reputation among Finnish Socialists as a traitor, and, rather than the intended effect, it contributed to the unification of the Finns and the healing of the wounds from the Civil War.[citation needed]

After fleeing to the Soviet Union, Kuusinen became an influential official in the state administration. He was a member of the Soviet Union's Politburo, the highest state organ. Kuusinen also continued his work during the reign of Nikita Khrushchev (1953–1964). He was Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union 1957–1964. In 1952 and again in 1957 he was also elected to the Presidium of the Central Committee.

Kuusinen was one of the editors of The Fundamentals in Marxism-Leninism, considered one of the fundamental works on dialectical materialism and Leninist Communism. In the Kremlin politics he was considered liberal — and from its temporal distance his thinking pointed forward to the perestroika. While editing a new party programme for "rapid agricultural, industrial, and technological development" he championed giving up the concept of the dictatorship of the proletariat, to the horror of more conservative ideologists. In this he was supported by Khrushchev.

Kuusinen was elected member of the Soviet Academy of Sciences in 1958.

Kuusinen died in Moscow on May 17, 1964. His ashes were buried in the Kremlin Wall Necropolis. His daughter Hertta Kuusinen was also a prominent Finnish politician after the Second World War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Ville_Kuusinen

Are you lying or are you just ignorant? FACTS!:damn: WHEN WERE WE WITH CAHOOTS WITH THE NAZIS BEFORE -41??? The Nazis prevented arms shipments from other countries to Finland during Winter War, ever heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact!?!
They did try to invade the whole country! Finland was never occupied! There was no unconditional surrender!
Finland doesnt recognize the military aspects of the treaty anymore, not since the USSR brake up! Do i have to dig up the numerous sources for you to get these FACTS?
Are you ignorant or indoctrinated?
The political ties to Nazi-Germany were well established by -41. Oh yea sure, Stalin sends a bunch of Ukrainians in summer clothes, what a great 'invasion'. They probably would've frozen to death on their own anyway. I think it's safe to say that Soviet Unions intrests were somewhere else by that time, and even after the war when they could've placed a pro-Soviet government to Finland they never did so.


Those ties were established from January -41 because of continued Soviet pressure, thier were planning to annex Finland after Winter War also.
Molotov and Hitler in Berlin talking about Finland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr1BGiKtD2A

Well the Soviets also called it just an "border dispute", with 1,000,000 men, 6,500 tanks and 3,800 aircraft.:roll: http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/8048/winterwaroverviewed0la2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The Terijoki Goverment proves their intentions.

The Finnish Democratic Republic (Finnish: Suomen kansanvaltainen tasavalta) was a short-lived unrecognised Soviet puppet state in those parts of Finnish Karelia that were occupied by the Soviet Union during the Winter War. Its government was known under the name of the Terijoki Government. The Soviet Union argued that it was the only rightful government for all of Finland that was capable of ending the Winter War and restoring peace. However, before the end of the war the Soviets gave up this interpretation to make peace with the Finnish government.

It was established on December 1, 1939, in the then-Finnish border town of Terijoki (which is now Zelenogorsk, part of the Saint Petersburg recreation area in Russia). During its lifespan Otto Ville Kuusinen was chairman and head of government.

On March 12, 1940, it was merged with the Karelian ASSR within the Russian SFSR to form the Karelo-Finnish SSR, a Soviet republic in its own right, after Finland had ceded the areas to the Soviet Union in the Moscow Peace Treaty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terijoki_Government

After the war US had the Atomic bomb and as US never was at war with Finland they had take that in consideration. They knew also that Finland would meen a prolonged guerilla war even if they would defeat the field army. They shifted to clandestine intelligence operations that continued until the break up of the USSR.

I said the their goal was annexation but not with ALL cost! They had to consider what US, UK and France would do had there been an invasion attempt right after the war.
They tried to infiltrate Finland untill the Soviet collapse, they never gave up on the ultimate goal of annexation. These arent something im making up, these are FACTS that historians have found on Soviet documents and interviewed people! Im really pissed you come here and spill your pseudo history to the world:damn:
Well I've read many books about history too and I know that the Soviets were never really that interested in Finland. Maybe this is what Finns don't want to hear, that we were infact more or less irrelevant to Soviets. Maybe being insignificant is worse than being the target of a sinister plan.

I'm not saying the Soviets were saints, far from it. It's just that their main interestes were elsewhere both in WW 2 and also in the Cold War. Finns just tend to think that Soviets did nothing but plotted the overthrow of Finnish society because hey, who wouldn't want to take over this swampy, mosquito infested country with horrible weather.

The Soviet intelligence operations in Finland were massive by any scale, like the Russian ones are today. Good to read Jukka Seppinens book "Soviet Intelligence in Finland 1917-1991" http://www.ajatuskirjat.fi/suomi/lukunayte_1353.asp
You clearly have no understanding of Finlands geopolitical value in WW2 or the present.

[Konovalov]

And now back to the current topic please of the crisis in Georgia.

[Happy Times]

And now back to the current topic please of the crisis in Georgia.
Absolutely, i just cant let this pseudo history past.

[AntEater]

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gj_jyRnqBYekXz2MyszBj6k_ZMtw
AFP report on US intelligence (or lack of it)
Interestingly, the US sources seem to at least unofficially confirm the russian version.

But US defense officials said they were unable to corroborate the Georgian claims.
"We don't see anything that supports they are in Gori," said a defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "I don't know why the Georgians are saying that."
"That assessment is ongoing," said Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman.

Reminds me of an op-ed in the NYTimes on friday or so, where foreign office complained about lack of groundwork and diplomatic staffs and analysts.
Also, it fits the "know-nothingism" article Skybird posted. Know-nothingism at work.

Apparently the US has a serious intelligence problem, and I don't mean the spelling abilities of its commander in Chief.

[mapuc]

I sincerly hope, that the will be an everlastning peace in caucasus(or how it's pronounced in english) and a treaty that's benefit for both parts.

Markus

[sergbuto]

Interesting bit of information. Since August 8 around 30 000 of South Ossetians sought refuge in North Ossetia which is about half of the current population of South Ossetia and higher refugee percentage than in case of Kosovo. This tells me that Ossetians (having fresh memories of 1991) had no illusion about "good intensions" by Georgia.
These are in addition to 100 000 of South Ossetian who fled in 1991. Looks like ethnic cleansing of the territory to me. But who would care about poor Ossetians when "evil" Russia is on the move. Now Georgia is the victim, never mind they started the military assault.

[1480]

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gj_jyRnqBYekXz2MyszBj6k_ZMtw
AFP report on US intelligence (or lack of it)
Interestingly, the US sources seem to at least unofficially confirm the russian version.

But US defense officials said they were unable to corroborate the Georgian claims.
"We don't see anything that supports they are in Gori," said a defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "I don't know why the Georgians are saying that."
"That assessment is ongoing," said Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman.

Reminds me of an op-ed in the NYTimes on friday or so, where foreign office complained about lack of groundwork and diplomatic staffs and analysts.
Also, it fits the "know-nothingism" article Skybird posted. Know-nothingism at work.

Apparently the US has a serious intelligence problem, and I don't mean the spelling abilities of its commander in Chief.

Thanks to our media, we have had a problem with our intelligence sources. I am really surprised GW knew to put the "st" behind 21. And never forget, we have a hard time keeping up with places that begin with two to three consenants.

[Happy Times]

Interesting bit of information. Since August 8 around 30 000 of South Ossetians sought refuge in North Ossetia which is about half of the current population of South Ossetia and higher refugee percentage than in case of Kosovo. This tells me that Ossetians (having fresh memories of 1991) had no illusion about "good intensions" by Georgia.
These are in addition to 100 000 of South Ossetian who fled in 1991. Looks like ethnic cleansing of the territory to me. But who would care about poor Ossetians when "evil" Russia is on the move. Now Georgia is the victim, never mind they started the military assault.

So why cant the minorities in Russia get independence or join other countries if they so wish? Or does this work only one way? Would it be best to not violate other countries sovereign territory?

[Skybird]

1480,
it becomes more and more clear that the Georgians have triggered this escalation intentionally because they thought they would get away with it.
But trying to take a province (whose population since the days Stalin had moved and divided them into russian north Ossetia and Georgian South Ossetia in order to control them better) via a military offensive that attacks a hopelessly superior military opponent - and hoping the West would assist in that by sending troops - obvioiusly was the most stupid, únrealistic, unscrupeklous and criminal tzhing a Georgian goivenrment could do. So why do you defend these idiots. they do not deserve your defense, nor anyone elses.

The Ossetians always, always have been against the Georgians, and never liked to be dominated by them. they want to live united with the Russian northern people again. the passports from russia were a formalisatio, but the basic orientation of Ossetians towards russia has been existent since cneturies before. They became victims of the stalinist division of ethnicities: divide et impera. For Georgia, it only is an issue of principles and nationalistic sentiments to keep Ossetia. that htey wouold accept to continue the Stalinist aggression against this ethnicity is of no concern for Georgia.

Now the West has allowed that a population in Kosovo that moved there from Albania to up to 90 % since the kosovo war should make claims for ethnic sel-freuglation and independence. These claims were made by a people that in total numbers to 90% just some years before did not even lived inside kosovo. They said they wanted to leave serbia nevertheless, and the West accepted that.

Now the Ossetians have had two referendums, in 1992 and 2006, and there have been one and a half decade of war, and they always sdaid they want to reunite with northern Ossetia (their own people!) and leave Georgia. assuming you accepted kosovo to become independent, why are you denying the very same right, proclaimed in the very same grounds, to the Ossetians?

for Moscow, the ethnic question is q cover only, of course. Moscows interst is swelf-interest: keeping NATO away, keeping/getting back the trafficking of energy under their influence, limiting the political influence of a West-oriented Geogia radiating beyond the borders - in a geographical minefield were the russians have currnetly close to one dozen glooming conflicts, some of which have sparked into wars since 1989, and could explode into wars again anytime.

It is not in the West's interest to destabilize th wergion even more by trying to bring western influence onto this confrontation between Russia and it's Islamic southern tribal battlepits. The West would not add stabilöity, but instability to it, indirectly by encouraging russia opponents, and directly ba challing Russia in its very own backyards were even the most pro-american westerner should be able to see in all clearness that geostrategically russia cannot and will never accept a NATO presence - even at the cost of war. American understanding of what a society should look like, and that it should be open access for America, will not be everywhere, wether it likes that, or not. And when NATO would be stupid enough trying to enfroce that against all reason, it even will mean war with Russia if Russia cannot prevent that by any other means. People who already thought the invasion of sovereign Iraq was okay may have no problem witgh imagining war with russia, but it would be of different scale and costs -and I already have been no fan of the iraq war as well.

After the promises made to russia under Bush senior and Clinton that NATO would not try to sneak up to Russia'S borders, and the former WP states would be left as neutral pufferzones, had been broken by NATO, after the Yugoslavian war, the Kosovo war, the Iraq war, the independence of Kosovo, the missile system statioined in Czech Republigk and Poland , the encirclement of Russia with ameircan listening posts and tripwire bases all along its southern priovinces and in the far east - after all these many backsteps and being poushed back and falling back - the Georgian war now is the Russians clear signal that they do not intend to fall back in face of NATO's bullying anymore, no matter the cost. and that is understandable, becasue what they would loose from now on is too mmuch as if they could afford it. It would hurt their most raosnable, self-explanatory self-interests. It would mean that they would need to behave stupid, and reject themselves.

i think seen that way Georgia is a turning point in rrelations between the West and russia. the message they intent it "up to here, and not one inch beyond." and for that reason I fear they will turn georgia into an exemplaric case that beyond any doubt serves the West as a clear warning shot that the limits have been reached. Economically they are in a very strong position, while the West is weak, especially europe. we depend on them - they do not depend on us. This and the new wealth from their rich resources is the origin of their restrengthening.

These are the preconditions you need to chnage fiorst before you can take on the Russians. Can you? Face it, most analysts woudl agree, the future will not see a bipolar world, or an american century anymore. the future will be a multipolar world in whcih the West does not have the most optimal position. and since there are many poles and powercentres, the security condition is incrtedibly more fragile and critical. the worlds is not more safe - it is more unsafe, and will become even more unsafe.

Considering most carefully on what to spend precious geostrategic resources will be of the essence for any bloc wanting to survie.

Still wanting to headlessly trigger major war with russia by sending troops to Georgia? we cant afford setting up that challenge. And Russia cannot afford to tolerate that challnege being set up.

If you can see the motives of your opponent being of most vital importance for him even when making them subject to your own standards of reasonable analysis, you better assume that he will be serious in defending his interests - at all costs. In other words - THEY ARE NOT BLUFFING.

[Skybird]

Interesting bit of information. Since August 8 around 30 000 of South Ossetians sought refuge in North Ossetia which is about half of the current population of South Ossetia and higher refugee percentage than in case of Kosovo. This tells me that Ossetians (having fresh memories of 1991) had no illusion about "good intensions" by Georgia.
These are in addition to 100 000 of South Ossetian who fled in 1991. Looks like ethnic cleansing of the territory to me. But who would care about poor Ossetians when "evil" Russia is on the move. Now Georgia is the victim, never mind they started the military assault.

So why cant the minorities in Russia get independence or join other countries if they so wish? Or does this work only one way? Would it be best to not violate other countries sovereign territory?
you don't get it, eh? the ossetians do not wish to be freed from russia, they want to be freed from the Georgians. the ossetians tradiitonally have been pro-russian - since decades if not centuries. the misery of their division cokmes from stalins policies. see my explanation to 1490 just one post above.

You must not save neither the North nor the South Ossetians from the Russians. All they want is unification of both regions, living as one united ethnic group again, living not under Georgian legislation - and after the latest events, and decades of supression by Georgians - who would blame them.

[Happy Times]

Interesting bit of information. Since August 8 around 30 000 of South Ossetians sought refuge in North Ossetia which is about half of the current population of South Ossetia and higher refugee percentage than in case of Kosovo. This tells me that Ossetians (having fresh memories of 1991) had no illusion about "good intensions" by Georgia.
These are in addition to 100 000 of South Ossetian who fled in 1991. Looks like ethnic cleansing of the territory to me. But who would care about poor Ossetians when "evil" Russia is on the move. Now Georgia is the victim, never mind they started the military assault.

So why cant the minorities in Russia get independence or join other countries if they so wish? Or does this work only one way? Would it be best to not violate other countries sovereign territory?
you don't get it, eh? the ossetians do not wish to be freed from russia, they want to be freed from the Georgians. the ossetians tradiitonally have been pro-russian - since decades if not centuries. the misery of their division cokmes from stalins policies. see my explanation to 1490 just one post above.

You must not save neither the North nor the South Ossetians from the Russians. All they want is unification of both regions, living as one united ethnic group again, living not under Georgian legislation - and after the latest events, and decades of supression by Georgians - who would blame them.

I would like to remember that i, like yourself, was against Kosovo independence. Gergias borders are internationally recognized. You dont respect it sovereignty?
This is not about Ossetia, you are clearly saying whole Georgia belongs to Russian control. What other countries would you count in this merry sphere?

[Happy Times]

Are you people aware that this "South Ossetian" separatist goverment not willing for a ceaserfire is composed of mostly ethnic Russians? That they are mostly officers of the Russian Army and the FSB? Their "defence minister" is a general of Russian Army, "interior minister" colonel of FSB and commanded the FSB Alpha unit in Beslan, their "intelligence chief" is a colonel and veteran of KGB/FSB since invasion of Afganistan etc..
:doh:

I posted earlier about this "elected" goverment in South Ossetia.

[Skybird]

Gergias borders are internationally recognized. You dont respect it sovereignty?
Serbia's borders were internationally recognized. you did not respect it'S sovereignity?
Georgia'S borders emewgred afdter it was no longer a province. but the provincial borders of Geoprgia are remaisn from stalin'S resettlement programs thta were meant to distort ethnic patterns on the ground, to weaken them. Want to make a moral defence of keeping such border that carry on ethnic crimes?

My God, those people do want to leave and be one with their northern brethren again, and live as part of russia. So for heavens sake let them go and don't sound like a paragraph-drunken eurocrat! ;)


This is not about Ossetia, you are clearly saying whole Georgia belongs to Russian control.

I said it is their sphere of influence and vital interest, like Canada or the Carebean or northern Mexico is of vital interest for the US that did not accept missiles on Cuba. Or the gulf is of interest for all getting oil from there. It is powerpolitics. Don't worry, I would not accept Finland falling under russian occupation, if that is what you are asking. but i would prefer Finland staying neutral instead of falling to the West, and both sides guaranteeing Findlands security. and maybe Fins would prefer that as well. My impression is they are a quite independently feeling people. But maybe that is just me.

[Skybird]

Are you people aware that this "South Ossetian" separatist goverment not willing for a ceaserfire is composed of mostly ethnic Russians? That they are mostly officers of the Russian Army and the FSB? Their "defence minister" is a general of Russian Army, "interior minister" colonel of FSB and commanded the FSB Alpha unit in Beslan, their "intelligence chief" is a colonel and veteran of KGB/FSB since invasion of Afganistan etc..
:doh:

I posted earlier about this "elected" goverment in South Ossetia.
that government more is a gang. I do not refer to them when talking about the Ossetians. I mean the ordinary man on the street. The population - not the opportunists trying to make a win from the situation.

[Skybird]

Apparently the US has a serious intelligence problem, and I don't mean the spelling abilities of its commander in Chief.
A long known problem explaining their lack of knowledge in the ME: too much enthusiasm for electronics and satellites, too little human intel on the ground. Reaches even back to the times of the Soviet Afghanistan war . Ru pur is they have stzarted to compensate for that just in recent years. but building human information networks takes time: many years.

[sergbuto]

So why cant the minorities in Russia get independence or join other countries if they so wish??
If you ask me, they should have such an opportunity. This is a way to better co-existance.

Or does this work only one way?
Exactly what I am trying to say. There are many bad things about Russia and there is no true democracy there in its classic definition but I do not share the politics of double standards adopted by goverments in the West. Why one type of standards is applied to Kosovo case and other standards are in the case of Ossetia and Abkhazia? Georgian goverment are not saints (far from that) in dealing with the problem. But now everyone (western politicians) happily point to bad Russia so that they (politicians) can forget and not to deal with ethnic cleansing problem in Ossetia and Abkhazia.

[1480]

Sky, much better. And I thank you for your time. I've never said the solution to stop this "invasion" was to send troops. I guess I am defending Georgia, not because they are right, not because they are "pro-US" as every media outlet puts in their headers when they report this story fourth hand, it's more to the tune of- I cannot see anything positive coming from an imperialistic Russian government.

Clinton and Albright should have faced a trial for war crimes with their actions on
Kosovo, we killed more civillians then the civil war did. I also believe George Tenet should have been thrown under the bus with his lies to both Clinton and Bush.

http://www.wou.edu/las/socsci/history/thesis07/Morris.htm

Excellent read on the US and NATO involvement in Kosovo.

Prima facie evidence suggests that Russia was not merely protecting it's citizens but invading another country. If they stated that they were going in there to arrest a dictator who is commiting genocide, from the very begining, I may have kept quiet and said it was an internal thing. Yet, their tune changes everyday, if not every hour. While they continue to trudge on.

[Happy Times]

Gergias borders are internationally recognized. You dont respect it sovereignty?
Serbia's borders were internationally recognized. you did not respect it'S sovereignity?
Georgia'S borders emewgred afdter it was no longer a province. but the provincial borders of Geoprgia are remaisn from stalin'S resettlement programs thta were meant to distort ethnic patterns on the ground, to weaken them. Want to make a moral defence of keeping such border that carry on ethnic crimes?

My God, those people do want to leave and be one with their northern brethren again, and live as part of russia. So for heavens sake let them go and don't sound like a paragraph-drunken eurocrat! ;)

I dont know if i misunderstood but i was against Kosovo independence.

"The Ossetians are originally descendants of the Alans, a Sarmatian tribe. They became Christians during the early Middle Ages, under Georgian and Byzantine influences. Under Mongol rule, they were pushed out of their medieval homeland south of the Don river in present-day Russia and part migrated towards and over the Caucasus mountains, to Georgia[14] where they formed three distinct territorial entities. Digor in the west came under the influence of the neighboring Kabard people, who introduced Islam. Tualläg in the south became what is now South Ossetia, part of the historical Georgian principality of Samachablo[15] where Ossetians found refuge from Mongol invaders. Iron in the north became what is now North Ossetia, under Russian rule from 1767. Most Ossetians are now Christian (approximately 61%); there is also a significant Muslim minority."

"The modern-day South Ossetia was annexed by Russia in 1801, along with Georgia proper, and absorbed into the Russian Empire. Following the Russian Revolution, South Ossetia became a part of the Menshevik Georgian Democratic Republic, while the north became a part of the Terek Soviet Republic."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#Medieval_and_early_modern_period

If borders arent respected, Europe will go up in flames.





This is not about Ossetia, you are clearly saying whole Georgia belongs to Russian control.

I said it is their sphere of influence and vital interest, like Canada or the Carebean or northern Mexico is of vital interest for the US that did not accept missiles on Cuba. Or the gulf is of interest for all getting oil from there. It is powerpolitics. Don't worry, I would not accept Finland falling under russian occupation, if that is what you are asking. but i would prefer Finland staying neutral instead of falling to the West, and both sides guaranteeing Findlands security. and maybe Fins would prefer that as well. My impression is they are a quite independently feeling people. But maybe that is just me.

Finland is culturally allways been part of the West, just as Baltics, but Russia has allways wiewed they belong in its sphere of influence. We call it Russias desire to the sea.These kind of of power politics are excatly what these countries dont want to fell victims off. Yeah we are, because we have seen what happens when the "big boys" gather to draw their maps. These times should be in the past in Europe.

[1480]

If borders arent respected, Europe will go up in flames.


HT, I think you have summed it up the best.

[Happy Times]

UK warns of Russia 'catastrophe'

UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown says there is "no justification" for Russia's military action in Georgia.

He said the intervention "threatens the stability of the entire region and risks a humanitarian catastrophe".

"There is a clear responsibility on the Russian government to bring this conflict quickly to an end," he said.

Tory leader David Cameron branded Russia a "dangerous bully" and urged the international community to stand up and condemn its action in Georgia.

He also called for Georgia's membership of Nato to be "speeded up".

Speedy resolution

Mr Cameron told the BBC: "The only language that bullies understand is when someone stands up to them."

UK nationals have been advised not to travel to Georgia and those in the country have been urged to leave.

As fighting over the disputed region of South Ossetia threatens to spread more widely, Mr Brown warned there was "an immediate and pressing need to end the fighting and disengage all military forces".

He said the Georgian government had offered a ceasefire and he urged "the Russians to reciprocate without delay".

"Continued aggression against Georgia - and especially an escalation of the conflict beyond South Ossetia - will only serve to damage Russia's international reputation and its relations with countries across the globe," he said.

Mr Brown has held discussions with France's President Nicolas Sarkozy and UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon in recent days.

Foreign Secretary David Miliband has also held talks with G7 and EU foreign ministers.

"We are committed to working with those partners in the EU, UN, OSCE [Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe] and G7 to ensure a peaceful and speedy resolution to this crisis which maintains Georgia's territorial and political integrity," Mr Brown added.

Earlier, Mr Cameron warned that there were "very, very worrying consequences" if Europe failed to speak with one voice that what Russia is doing "is wrong".

"What Russia has done here is used massive and disproportionate force. It's breached international law and it has violated Georgia's territorial integrity," he told BBC Radio 4's The World at One.

"It has acted as a massive and dangerous bully and we can't allow this to go ahead without it being challenged."

Mr Cameron conceded that Georgia's decision to send troops into South Ossetia "was a bad strategy", but he said there could be implications for Baltic states that still identify with Russia if nations fail to speak out.

Amnesty International has called on Georgia and Russia to provide safe passage to people fleeing from the conflict and allow unimpeded access to humanitarian relief to those in affected areas.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7553508.stm

[1480]

I really liked this little quip from the BBC:

MILITARY ANALYST ALEKSANDR KHRAMCHIKHIN IN RUSSIA'S IZVESTIYA

Georgia is incapable of conducting a prolonged war in principle... Given that Georgia has failed to win the lightning war, it has lost the war... It is totally out of the question for NATO troops to get involved. European armies are terrified of losses and a war against Russia is impossible as far as they are concerned.


So, kiddies, they layed down the gaunlet calling y'all out, but I
digress, I'm sorry, I forgot my thoughts and/or opinions are nothing but intellectual farts! I'll go to sleep, and will pray you are still here, in the morning.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554065.stm

[baggygreen]

And thats why as much as steed complains about brown, im glad he's the leader and not that tory idiot.

speeding up georgia's enrollment into nato? super duper idea

[AkbarGulag]

Here in the 'New Zealand Herald' was an article that quote, said "Russia is a mix of Mongolian Savagery and Western Thinking".

Combine those sorts of global sentiments that attempt to de-humanise a country, with a massive military alliance on it's doorstep.

Then, add the global precedent set with the Kosovo debacle. Kosovo, where they all had lived for centuries together and shared a language. The prominent divider there was religion. Yet the west forces a resolution.

Now, cries of foul at Russia, where the disputed areas are both culturally and linguistically different, yet the west thinks they are less deserving.

This is the price of Kosovo, this is the price of a miltary alliance encircling a nation. This is the price the west set for itself when it sought to marginalise Russia.

Any ethnic majority or minority grouped together in a new country, has the right to break away and create a third country.

This is the price of Kosovo. The West set it. Get used to paying it.

[1480]

And thats why as much as steed complains about brown, im glad he's the leader and not that tory idiot.

speeding up georgia's enrollment into nato? super duper idea

Look at it for a moment, Brown is a newbie and the tory idiot is old school, thoughts haven't changed but the lanuage has.....

[baggygreen]

Im just keen for it to end one way or the other already, then they can all go back to pretending to be friendly

[BH]

With the Russians (allegedly) advancing into Georgia now, the Georgians might want to consider taking up the strategy of the insurgent groups of Iraq on how to fight against a superior force. IE: Hit them when and where they are the weakest. My guess is that if the Georgians are effective in creating causalities in this method, Russians people will Afghanistan and want no part in this war.

[AngusJS]

Would it be possible for the US to send a carrier group to the Black Sea? Where would the nearest one be based? Would transiting the Bosporus be a problem?

[joegrundman]

And thats why as much as steed complains about brown, im glad he's the leader and not that tory idiot.

speeding up georgia's enrollment into nato? super duper idea
Look at it for a moment, Brown is a newbie and the tory idiot is old school, thoughts haven't changed but the lanuage has.....

Don't get too carried away with what Cameron says. Posturing is the prerogative of the opposition. If/when he gets in power, reality will set its own constraints on him, and the right of posturing will fall to the new opposition.

[OneToughHerring]

Otto Ville (Wilhelm) Kuusinen ...

Him? I'm not saying he wasn't a significant person but I don't think his actions ever really amounted to a real overthrough attempt. If the Soviets wanted to overthrow the Finnish government why did they accept the declaration of indepence in the first place? Why not just make Otto-Ville the absolute leader of Finland and be done with it? And in WW2 they really didn't care that much about Finland so Otto-Ville was kinda sidelined with his plans. Again, doesn't amount to an overthrow attempt by the Soviets.

Those ties were established from January -41 because of continued Soviet pressure, thier were planning to annex Finland after Winter War also.
Molotov and Hitler in Berlin talking about Finland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr1BGiKtD2A

Well the Soviets also called it just an "border dispute", with 1,000,000 men, 6,500 tanks and 3,800 aircraft. ...
Well if they felt like spending a lot folks from warmer climates like the Ukraine then that was their choice. The Siberian winter fighters they used to e.g. thwart the nazi push against Moscow. I think they viewed Winter War as a kind of preliminary practice session for the real thing that was to come in the form of Operation Barbarossa.

Sure, a "clandestine intelligence operation". Tell me, what information was there in Finland that the Soviets would've been interested in? Sure there were spies and informants everywhere, also western spies in Soviet Union, but what was that super-secret info that they were so interested in? How many pickles Finland will order from Soviet Union next year? This is something I've never understood.

As for USA, Finns were among other things shot with ammo provided by USA. So at war with them or not we sure felt the sting. Also Finns gave Jewish citizens to the Nazis to be deported to the death camps. And some POW's who were Jewish. And also some foreign nationals including British. So doesn't sound like we were really alltogether nice ourselves.

The Soviet intelligence operations in Finland were massive by any scale, like the Russian ones are today. Good to read Jukka Seppinens book "Soviet Intelligence in Finland 1917-1991" http://www.ajatuskirjat.fi/suomi/lukunayte_1353.asp
You clearly have no understanding of Finlands geopolitical value in WW2 or the present.

Again, what was the info that they so dearly wanted in Finland? And how was this info going to magically transform Finland into a socialist nation? I think a lot of people are carried away by these spies and informants etc. But in the end what are they? They provide the info to their masters that they can get. Our spies are doing the same thing. The whole of Cold War was this intelligence gathering stuff between the Soviets and the Americans and also between the East - and West Germans. Was it a war? Not really in that not a lot of folks got killed in the whole 'information war'.

The people who got killed and who IMHO have a real reason to gripe from the Cold War era are the third world nations who were used as a kind of proxy setting for war games by the east and also the west. Gun runners selling weapons used in all types of conflicts in former colonial nations. These were people _really_ dying because the west wanted to keep a hold of their economies. And if they couldn't keep them in their pockets they might as well let these nations be destroyed through war, famine and diseases. And so has happened and millions and millions have died after WW2 and the 'civilised west' has done very little about it.

[joegrundman]

Would it be possible for the US to send a carrier group to the Black Sea? Where would the nearest one be based? Would transiting the Bosporus be a problem?

The US is a long way from wanting to escalate the situation in this way.

[CptSimFreak]

Would it be possible for the US to send a carrier group to the Black Sea? Where would the nearest one be based? Would transiting the Bosporus be a problem?
The US is a long way from wanting to escalate the situation in this way.

....because they are too busy sending task force to frak with Iran...

[joegrundman]

Would it be possible for the US to send a carrier group to the Black Sea? Where would the nearest one be based? Would transiting the Bosporus be a problem?
The US is a long way from wanting to escalate the situation in this way.
....because they are too busy sending task force to frak with Iran...

innit tho'

didn't someone link to an article at the beginning of the thread suggesting a Quid Pro Quo opportunity for the US?

Like, how about you Russians give the nod over Iran and we'll keep the dogs on the leash over Georgia?

I'm sure the article said it better than i did, although i don't really believe that deals are made on such terms these days.

[nikimcbee]

Su-25 shot down.
http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=12947717&PageNum=0

[sergbuto]

The new buzz term from Russia appears to be "peace-enforcement". :roll:

It is not actually new. They are sort of using the language similar to what was used by the West in the case of Kosovo: "Let's bomb Serbia to enforce peace in Kosovo" or something like that.

[AntEater]

Just came in on Reuters, Russia halts military operations in Georgia.

Re the rationale, maybe the initial georgian plan just failed at its most crucial step.
There's a 4 km long two-lane tunnel connecting north and south Ossetia, the Roki tunnel. It is the only way tanks can pass through to south Ossetia.
In first reports on Friday, Georgia claimed to have blocked it.
If Georgia had done it, a russian reaction would've taken days.
No fast drive of the 19th motor-rifle to Zinchvali then. The russians might've flown in airborne troops but that would've taken much longer.
Apparently this key operation failed. I suppose either a commando raid was to blow it up or a fast small unit was to seperate from the main force, break through lines to the tunnel and block it.
Since russian sources claim the arrest of serveral "saboteur groups", I think it might have been a failed spec ops. Russia claims to have arrested foreign nationals, so maybe this was to be done by georgian special forces reinforced by PMCs (mercenaries), either US or Israeli.
Maybe they tried it again with Su-25 and that was the occasion the georgian Su-25 was shot down on Friday.
Still, if that is the chase, the georgians should've stopped the operation as soon as the failure to block the tunnel was known. Maybe a false success report was recieved??

[Skybird]

If borders arent respected, Europe will go up in flames.


HT, I think you have summed it up the best.
If borders ignore ethnical realities in the ground, countries go up in flames as well. The ME is full of them. Georgia's current borders represent former Stalinist provincial borders from time sof the USSR. And that is where the probolem comes from - the stalinist borders were drawn as arbitrarily on the ground as were the borders of let's say Iraq. That way people got put together that do not well together over time if forced to live together. Fact is that the Ossetians since before Stalin had their sympathies mroe woth the north, than the South - russia, instead of Georgia. Fact is that they suffered under nationalistic supression by Georgians.

turn it as you want, as long as you keep Abchasia and Ossetia inside Georgia, you will not have calm in that part of the Kaukasian region, for you supress ethnic drives ion order to proclaim your reasons of state. and that is why russia has not pressed for a military solution earlier - a state of constant unrest is in its best interest in order to keep Georgia out of NATO. Possible that the time of this strategy is over now and they enforce it in different ways. But NATO will not get a foot on the ground in that region - this or that way. and since I do not see euripe being prepared to fight in wars ranging as far as into Middle Asia, I think it is very wise if we stay out of that pit indeed.

What'S more, I agree on your explanation that borders should be respected, at leats in so far that this is a worthy principle to follow - usually, in most cases. It should have been followed in case of Kosovo as well. But the soviet Union's fall caused dangers and conflicts because all the tensions that before were brutally supressed, had a sudden freedom to flame up high. Like you have seen on the Balikans as well, after Yugoslavia's fall. Or Iraq. Even more problems are added by the energy Islam is injecting into the tensions in the regions that formed the former soviet union's southern provinces, not too mention dedicated Islamic jihadists and local ethnic tensions, open bills, organised crime and corruption - the whole rat-tail of complications you got familiar with from Afghanistan. It is a mortgage history proves to be difficult to pay off. The existence of the soviet Union caused distortions that principal "reasons of state" and "borders should be respected" will do no justice, and help to boil on the inner conflict-heavy energy in these distorted constellations. It is extremely difficult a mess to solve, and I advise to restrain from general recipes and blueprints, and try to find solutions on a one-by-one basis. that will be difficult enough already, due to the new geostrategic motivations of major powers (energy, trafficking of ressources, keeping ground despite decreasing demographic power: China vs. russia).

We Westerners are probably best advised not to put the moral burden of all mankind onto our shoulders becasue we still feel guilty of the days of colonialism, but to act by a sense of realpolitik. what are our vital interests we cannot afford to give up? Energy, technological competitiveness, becoming more independant from other nations in this regard, and driving back islam, which may already be a battle lost. for these issues we should reserve our limited geostrategic ressources, always calculating the effect of our investement against the costs it causes us, compared before the background of out vital interests versus interests that are not vital but are luxury that we can afford - or not. War is too expensive to wage it just for some vague thing like human ideals. Although wars get sold under that label, it is a lie, today more than ever before in history. the russians do not wage war to protect the Ossetians. The americans did not invade Iraq for the sake of freedom of the iraqi people. and europe should not send troops to Georgia for defending "democracy" there. A democracy that has very ugly nationalistic features and sees an obviously unscrupelous gangster in the presidential palace who is as willing to massacre civilians as are the Russians. I strongly recommend to leave the two of them alone with each other - because the interests we have in that region: a.) are real, but not of maximum importance (energy resources passing through that region will always be at risk and will always be vulnerable to russia reaching out at them), and b.) we have no realistic means to defend these interests there anyway. The cost-effect-calculation does not work for us there and creates red numbers only.

Is that pleasing some ideals? I do not care. It is realistic. That is what decides between what can be done, and what not. Our options there are extremely limited, our interests are outclassed by that of the Russians there. that makes for a confrontation with Russia that is a.) not needed, that leaves us with b.) little chances to win, and c.) nothing worthy enough to win so that it could compensate for the risk and the investement. Since essential interests of russia are touched, we d.) even cannot bluff them - they will not and cannot afford to fall back this time. And they are tired to do so anyway - so do not count on appealling to them.

This round is theirs. Let'S start thinking about how we could play better next time, and what preconditions we need to fulfill until then.

[Skybird]

The new buzz term from Russia appears to be "peace-enforcement". :roll:

It is not actually new. They are sort of using the language similar to what was used by the West in the case of Kosovo: "Let's bomb Serbia to enforce peace in Kosovo" or something like that.
War of words, slogans, paroles, and catch-phrases. Not worth to waste a single thought on that, wether it be Kosovo or Iraq, or Georgia. Always look beyond the phrases.

[Skybird]

Short, realistic comment without illusions (German language):

http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/mitten_aus_berlin/russland-macht-und-ohnmacht-im-kaukasus_aid_324145.html?drucken=1

[Skybird]

Medwedew has just announced end of Georgia operation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7555858.stm

Defense minster Victor Larionov demands legally binding guarantees in writing that Georgia now and for the future rules out the use of force to bring the disputed provinces under control. He also called for Shaakashvili to step down, for russia would not negotiate with him. the Russian troops will stay i position and in Georgia as long as these guarantees have not been written down and the negotiations have not been brought to a satisfactory end.

Georgia stands with it's back pushed against it's capital's walls. Russia has demonstrated ability to move freely at will in Georgia, and demonstrated it's dominance in it'S backyard. Georgia is left in no position to hope for regaining Ossetia, or NATO membership. Saakashvilli will be met with greater caution and restraint by the West - he has essentially deconstructed himself. If the russians stay with their demand, he sooner or latter will need to step back - if he really is caring for the best of his country. the West should feel lucky to see him go. Nevertheless there will be a lot of diplomatic protests, against all reason, of course.

Lecture successful.

[Happy Times]

Otto Ville (Wilhelm) Kuusinen ...

Him? I'm not saying he wasn't a significant person but I don't think his actions ever really amounted to a real overthrough attempt.

He lead a coup attempt once and was the head of a soviet puppet goverment the other! What more do you need?:doh:


If the Soviets wanted to overthrow the Finnish government why did they accept the declaration of indepence in the first place? Why not just make Otto-Ville the absolute leader of Finland and be done with it? And in WW2 they really didn't care that much about Finland so Otto-Ville was kinda sidelined with his plans. Again, doesn't amount to an overthrow attempt by the Soviets.

Maybe you should read some history books written by HISTORIANS? Bolseviks accepted a lot of declarations after October Revolution, they thought they would become Soviet republics and join back. When that didnt happen the attempted to do it by force, in Estonia for exsample that had its War of Indepence also in 1918.
Or GEORGIA that declared indepence 1918 and in 1921 Red Army invaded and installed a Bolsevik puppet goverment. You are ignorant or indoctrinated by someone, if they didnt care about Finland why did they try so hard to come here.:doh:

Those ties were established from January -41 because of continued Soviet pressure, thier were planning to annex Finland after Winter War also.
Molotov and Hitler in Berlin talking about Finland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr1BGiKtD2A

Well the Soviets also called it just an "border dispute", with 1,000,000 men, 6,500 tanks and 3,800 aircraft. ...
Well if they felt like spending a lot folks from warmer climates like the Ukraine then that was their choice. The Siberian winter fighters they used to e.g. thwart the nazi push against Moscow. I think they viewed Winter War as a kind of preliminary practice session for the real thing that was to come in the form of Operation Barbarossa.


The troops where from all over USSR, also from Siberia and i hardly think they knew in -39 they were going to fight the Germans in the gates of Moscow. Your writing your own history.

Sure, a "clandestine intelligence operation". Tell me, what information was there in Finland that the Soviets would've been interested in? Sure there were spies and informants everywhere, also western spies in Soviet Union, but what was that super-secret info that they were so interested in? How many pickles Finland will order from Soviet Union next year? This is something I've never understood.

They tried to infiltrate the society in all levels their ultimate goal was to annex Finland.
Read this sample before you ask again, you can get the book and many others on the subject from the LIBRARY.
http://www.ajatuskirjat.fi/suomi/lukunayte_1353.asp


As for USA, Finns were among other things shot with ammo provided by USA. So at war with them or not we sure felt the sting. Also Finns gave Jewish citizens to the Nazis to be deported to the death camps. And some POW's who were Jewish. And also some foreign nationals including British. So doesn't sound like we were really alltogether nice ourselves.


You are really confused.
Yet USA pressured Stalin that he should settle for the Winter War borders.

During the Finnish-Russian War of 1939-40 (the Winter War), Finnish Jews fought alongside their non-Jewish fellow countrymen. During the Finnish-Russian War of 1941-44, in which Finnish Jews also took part, Finland and Nazi-Germany were co-belligerents. Despite strong German pressure, the Finnish Government refused to take action against Finnish nationals of Jewish origin who thus continued to enjoy full civil rights throughout the War. There are many interesting anecdotes from this period, concerning, among others, the presence of a Jewish prayer tent on the Russian front virtually under the Nazi's noses and the food help given to Russian-Jewish POWs by the Jewish communities of Finland.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Finland.html

We were "alltogether nice" as the situation allowed compared to any participant country in WW2




The Soviet intelligence operations in Finland were massive by any scale, like the Russian ones are today. Good to read Jukka Seppinens book "Soviet Intelligence in Finland 1917-1991" http://www.ajatuskirjat.fi/suomi/lukunayte_1353.asp
You clearly have no understanding of Finlands geopolitical value in WW2 or the present.

Again, what was the info that they so dearly wanted in Finland? And how was this info going to magically transform Finland into a socialist nation? I think a lot of people are carried away by these spies and informants etc. But in the end what are they? They provide the info to their masters that they can get. Our spies are doing the same thing. The whole of Cold War was this intelligence gathering stuff between the Soviets and the Americans and also between the East - and West Germans. Was it a war? Not really in that not a lot of folks got killed in the whole 'information war'.

The people who got killed and who IMHO have a real reason to gripe from the Cold War era are the third world nations who were used as a kind of proxy setting for war games by the east and also the west. Gun runners selling weapons used in all types of conflicts in former colonial nations. These were people _really_ dying because the west wanted to keep a hold of their economies. And if they couldn't keep them in their pockets they might as well let these nations be destroyed through war, famine and diseases. And so has happened and millions and millions have died after WW2 and the 'civilised west' has done very little about it.


Read the book and a few more, maybe you will see the the light at the end of the tunnel you are in.

[Diopos]

The real problem is that although the RussoGeorgian war seems to enter its endphase (militarily) we have alot of loose ends in the FinnoRussian front!:doh:

Boy! This sure was a crazy thread!

[AntEater]

I can safely say
"All I know about the russo-finnish war I learned due to Mikhail Sakashvili"
:rotfl:

[Diopos]

I can safely say
"All I know about the russo-finnish war I learned due to Mikhail Sakashvili"
:rotfl:

:D
Yes! But I'll admit if (when ?) the sht hits the fan I'd much prefer to have a Finn beside me then opposite of me!:yep:

[darius359au]

Medwedew has just announced end of Georgia operation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7555858.stm

Defense minster Victor Larionov demands legally binding guarantees in writing that Georgia now and for the future rules out the use of force to bring the disputed provinces under control. He also called for Shaakashvili to step down, for russia would not negotiate with him. the Russian troops will stay i position and in Georgia as long as these guarantees have not been written down and the negotiations have not been brought to a satisfactory end.

Georgia stands with it's back pushed against it's capital's walls. Russia has demonstrated ability to move freely at will in Georgia, and demonstrated it's dominance in it'S backyard. Georgia is left in no position to hope for regaining Ossetia, or NATO membership. Saakashvilli will be met with greater caution and restraint by the West - he has essentially deconstructed himself. If the russians stay with their demand, he sooner or latter will need to step back - if he really is caring for the best of his country. the West should feel lucky to see him go. Nevertheless there will be a lot of diplomatic protests, against all reason, of course.

Lecture successful.
What it shows is Russia can invade a sovereign country and now demand a Democratically elected leader be removed or they will keep on bombing! and their not going to leave the country anyway till some vague conditions are met.How long before there's another engineered incident and the Russians grab the rest of the country and this sits ok with you? ,who's the next country that they decide they don't like the policies of and find some excuse to invade? , Ukrainians looking at joining NATO and the EU , their "Traditionally" in the Russian sphere of influence , so I suppose they will probably be next and that's ok to.
There's reason as you put it and there,s knowing right from wrong , and Russia's actions have been wrong.

[Type941]

On refugees from Osetia. You guys don't know, or forget, or ignore, that 500000 Georgians were driven out of Osetia and Abkhazia in early 90s. 300000 people were displaced from Abkhazia. So? All these people want to go back to their land. Russia is there and won't let them. Georgia wants lands back...


Well, anyway, all of these why and when is a hangover of that Stalin and his devils in suits and shirts who carved up the USSR as they pleased.

I think it was funny how Teddy announced that he stops the war just as Sarko was about to land. It's interesting.

Let's see how this pans out. It's definately not over. From what I see, Russia is now effectively allowing Abhkaz troops to etchnically cleanse Kodori Gorge - and it stands there and if Georgia will try to help or fight back, these damn 'peacekeepers' will not let them. So effectively this is a bully, letting a weaker bully beat up a kid and stands there to make sure nooone helps him. This is so outrageus.

Georgia meanwhile quit CIS - this completely farcical organization. Noone from it, NOONE denounced Georgia and supported Russia. Noone! Not even Balarus, how crazy is that?

And then it's gonna go into long UN debates about whether Russian peacekeepers should have any mandate to be there. And probably only there Georgia can win if there will be international force.


I think the whole loss of the west here is that they didn't put troops there. THEY SHOULD HAVE SENT TROOPS. Russia was blufing, and we should have called its bluff. There is no way they would start a war. They can't afford it. West, Nato are stronger, much stronger. The unrest and loss of face is also would topple that authoritarian government quite easily. So let' see how this goes. Glad that people in Georgia are no longer bombed at least.


PS. Georgia was a total idiot to start this the way they did. Should have made region rich and bought them over. It usually works.

[AntEater]

First of all, NATO was militarily in no position to intervene.
US CVBGs are in the persian gulf. Until one transits the Suez Canal and the Bosporus, they're out of the picture.
With USAF land based air there is the slight problem that Turkey still does not want US aircraft based there. I actually have no idea on the official turkish position in that conflict, but Turkey would've been the only NATO member to be in a position to intervene. Problem is, if there's one country not exactly popular in the Caucasus, its Turkey, even with Georgians. Not to mention that turkish troops are committed in northern Iraq and their own eastern half.
Keep in mind that while Russia did basically fight this conflict left handed, except maybe for air assets, NATO would have a hard time mobilizing any comparable armoured force.
NATO is simply strained to the limit with its commitments in Afghanistan and Kosovo, not to mention US and British forces in Iraq.
The numbers there may sound small, but with rotation, a thousand man in Iraq actually amount to three or four thousand men commited overall.
Also, NATO militaries pretty much have transitioned from heavy land fighting machines to peacekeeping forces.
I suppose the whole tank strenght of NATO in Europe is about the size of the west german army in 1989, maybe less.
The Bundeswehr reduced itself from 3000 to 300 tanks, and german artillery today is hardly worth mentioning, basically the only thing left is the divisionary artillery of 1st Panzer. Many of those tanks were given to other NATO partners, but a tank battalion here and there, each with different tactics and doctrines is not equal to a real Panzer division, of which the Bundeswehr has a single one left. Not to mention expertise in tank warfare, which is vaning everywhere. Using tanks as mobile fortresses in Afghanistan does not equal tank warfare.
Russia is not an equal power in the air and on the sea, but they still have a huge land army, and only a fraction of it was used in Georgia, and these were largely equipped with cold war equipment.

[sergbuto]

On refugees from Osetia. You guys don't know, or forget, or ignore, that 500000 Georgians were driven out of Osetia and Abkhazia in early 90s.
Oh, yes we know. During the early 90s conflict around 100 000 Ossetians were driven from South Ossetia and around 23 000 Georgians fled South Ossetia when Ossetians tried to defend themselves against ethnic cleansing conducted by Georgia.

[OneToughHerring]

He lead a coup attempt once and was the head of a soviet puppet goverment the other! What more do you need?:doh:
Oh I'm not denying his ambitions and attempts, I'm just acknowledging that there are differences between overthrow attempts. Some are more significant and some less so. For example the fact that the whole Finnish civil war was more or less a sideshow for the nascent bolshevik nation whereas the Germans were supplying the whites with soldiers, material, the works. The same folks who in a span of a little more than a decade would start the WW2. So there are two sides to every issue.

Otto-Ville was a reasonably tough fellow but he didn't really get that much help from the bolsheviks for it to qualify a proper significant overthow attempt. You're naturally welcome to think otherwise.

Maybe you should read some history books written by HISTORIANS? Bolseviks accepted a lot of declarations after October Revolution, they thought they would become Soviet republics and join back. When that didnt happen the attempted to do it by force, in Estonia for exsample that had its War of Indepence also in 1918.
Or GEORGIA that declared indepence 1918 and in 1921 Red Army invaded and installed a Bolsevik puppet goverment. You are ignorant or indoctrinated by someone, if they didnt care about Finland why did they try so hard to come here.:doh:
There are all kinds of historians. Even people like David Irving can call themselves historians. And believe it or not even the Russians/former Soviets have their own historians. Not that you would accept anything they write as fact I'm sure.

So the Finnish civil war was an attempt by the Bolsheviks to take over Finland by force? Why didn't they send enough Russian troops to help the poor peasants then? Why let a bunch of Finnish peasents be killed by, among others, German troops? Wasn't it their overthrow attempt?

The troops where from all over USSR, also from Siberia and i hardly think they knew in -39 they were going to fight the Germans in the gates of Moscow. Your writing your own history.
Well I can provide you with knowledge about the attacks against Moscow and also about the troops used in Winter War and also the Continuation War by the Soviets. There wasn't an endless supply of the Siberian winter troops. In -39 the Soviets already knew a lot trough Molotov-Ribbentrop and also through other channels. Not really a question of what they knew but what Stalin did about things. He made a lot of mistakes in terms of human lives lost but in the end the Soviets won the war so arguing about mistakes seems a little arbitrary afterwards.

One has to bear in mind that the situation was very dire for the Soviets, it wasn't just a question of winning or losing and perhaps changing the form of government afterwards. It was a fight of survival of their 'race', of all slavs and eastern people against people who wanted to annilate them all and came very close to doing so.

They tried to infiltrate the society in all levels their ultimate goal was to annex Finland.
Read this sample before you ask again, you can get the book and many others on the subject from the LIBRARY.
http://www.ajatuskirjat.fi/suomi/lukunayte_1353.asp
Yea I'm sure there was all kinds of political wrangling going back and forth. The nazis also had their guys in Finland and these guys were welcomed with open arms, Hitler celebrated his birthday here. After the war there were also spies from the west in Finland all the time, we never hear about these guys. Or about for example the orders that CIA gave to Finnish politicians and economy. Or about Finns willingly making Swedish an official language in our country and forcing kids to learn it. To me this seems more concrete then some political party scheming, the way I see it all parties have their dark secrets. Even the Finnish right-wingers from their times with the nazis etc.

You are really confused.
Yet USA pressured Stalin that he should settle for the Winter War borders.

During the Finnish-Russian War of 1939-40 (the Winter War), Finnish Jews fought alongside their non-Jewish fellow countrymen. During the Finnish-Russian War of 1941-44, in which Finnish Jews also took part, Finland and Nazi-Germany were co-belligerents. Despite strong German pressure, the Finnish Government refused to take action against Finnish nationals of Jewish origin who thus continued to enjoy full civil rights throughout the War. There are many interesting anecdotes from this period, concerning, among others, the presence of a Jewish prayer tent on the Russian front virtually under the Nazi's noses and the food help given to Russian-Jewish POWs by the Jewish communities of Finland.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Finland.html

We were "alltogether nice" as the situation allowed compared to any participant country in WW2
Still they sold weapons to the Soviets.

Also the Americans delayed help to Finland meaning that for example the Brewster fighters arrived way too late and weren't of any use in Winter War.

Here's a link to the info.
http://www.verkkouutiset.fi/arkisto/Arkisto_2000/7.huhtikuu/talv1400.htm

Nevakivi has also written more about the subject, his works are a good place to start if you want to read something of value concerning the political history of Finland in WW2. He's also a very good lecturer.

As for Finland being a model nation in WW2, tell that to the relatives of the 8 Jewish citizens we gave to the gas chambers and the POW's with tens of Jewish people among them. Or the Russian POW's who died in our POW - camps, or the Russian citizens who were kept in concentration camps at the beginning of the war, many of them died including women and children. Or maybe the civilians who starved to death in Leningrad which was sieged by the Germans and Finns were helping them. Or concentration camp prisoners dying around Europe because the war was dragging on because some countries chose to fight for the Germans instead of against them.

Also you forgot mention the Finnish rightwingers who were a direct equivalent of the nazis in Finland. The IKL was a small group but they had significant power in Finnish society for a long time. Their remnants are still around spouting racist and xenophobic rhetoric, I'm sure you subscribe to their viewpoints wholeheartedly.

Read the book and a few more, maybe you will see the the light at the end of the tunnel you are in.
Maybe it's you who should read a book or two, and not just 'ajatuskirjat' but books by should I say historians of higher caliber. If you plan on studying history in a university or writing historical journals intended for a larger public don't be shocked if you will not be allowed to use Ajatuskirjat as a source.

[Skybird]

What it shows is Russia can invade a sovereign country and now demand a Democratically elected leader be removed or they will keep on bombing! and their not going to leave the country anyway till some vague conditions are met.How long before there's another engineered incident and the Russians grab the rest of the country and this sits ok with you? ,who's the next country that they decide they don't like the policies of and find some excuse to invade? , Ukrainians looking at joining NATO and the EU , their "Traditionally" in the Russian sphere of influence , so I suppose they will probably be next and that's ok to.
There's reason as you put it and there,s knowing right from wrong , and Russia's actions have been wrong.
How pathetic. You are in total ignorration of Georgia's and Shaakashvi8li'S share of guilt in this. Being a demoicratically elected president eventually does not save you from being an ultra-nationalistic gangster who opens fire at sleeping civilians at night under the protection of the Olympic ceremonies. the ruzssians may not be saints, but they are not guilty of this 5-day-war - the Georgians asked for it. And now you complain that the russians did not accept to play the weak and defeated, but reacted with the force needed to secure that the agressor was taught the lesson that he deserved and that Russia would turn this surprise attack into an undisputed victory? do you expect them to behave silly?

anyhow, this is purely academic now, since history already has decided the war at hand, and created new facts people have to live with - wether they like them, or not. Sometimes you catch the bear, and sometimes the bear catches you. This time the bear did everything correct and secured this round for himself. If westerners don'T like it, they have to adjust their policies and make sure that they fulfill preconditions in time, that must be set in order to win the next time. Compared to what happened, both the US and Europe reacted relatively calm and restrainful. I think in the Wetsern capitals it was clear from the very beginning that the Russians would and could not afford this provocation to succeed uncountered, and that there was no sense in trying to confront the Russian in their own backyard. as the german essay I linked just said, some things you simply do not even try: like challenging the US in their own backyard that is middle america, or the Russian in their former southern soviet provinces which are part of their backyard. After all is said and done, what remains is the conclusion that shaakashvili acted with maximum stupidity and irresponsibility. Since credits for the mess are his, any complaints go to his office, please.

This week's lesson: if you are the inferior and weak dwarf, then you do not provoke wars against a superior military giant, but try to avoid right this. Also, Russian-NATO relations have changed. The russians demonstrated that they have had enough. It also means that well-meaning european diplomats trying to be cosy and gentle on the russians will need to rethink their perceptions of the russians. russia after all is a major power with teeth to bite, and enough detemrination to use its economic potentials to maximum own advantage. well-meaningly hoping that they will not make use of the strong position in supplying europe with energy, is absilutely inadequate. we need to become indepedent from russian oil and gas, like we need to become independent from Muhammeddan oil as well. Two good reason to change our economy NOW and not to wait until the barrel oil costs 400 dollars.

Ukraine in NATO? Since this has been ever brought up years ago, I was against it. I do not wish NATO to sneak upon russian borders like that. You obviously still do not realise it, but that is totally unacceptable for russia. Oh boy, some people seem to thinik it is a virtue in itself to provoke the russians as m uczh as is possible - no matter at what costs. Have these minds no sense of reason in them? Why are the russians expected to accept what NATO or America never, never would accept in return?

Ah, hopeless debate.

[sergbuto]

I can safely say
"All I know about the russo-finnish war I learned due to Mikhail Sakashvili"
:rotfl:

:D
Yes! But I'll admit if (when ?) the sht hits the fan I'd much prefer to have a Finn beside me then opposite of me!:yep:
:D Yes, since it has been claimed a numerious number of times in various kinds of threads on the forum and it is probably going to be said a few million times more that Russia is going to invade Finland and Baltic countries, you never know, that might indeed happen in the end after such an intense insisting. :D I'd say be careful what you "wish for".:rotfl:

[sergbuto]

Georgia was a total idiot to start this the way they did. Should have made region rich and bought them over. It usually works.
I think Macedonia is one of good examples of handling the ethnic tensions but Georgian goverment has chosen the war.

[AntEater]

Ok, Macedonia actually did the same as Sakashvili did.
They hired Su-25s and Mi-24s (plus Pilots) from Ukraine and let the Albanians have it.
Problem is, the Albanian army was definitely not in a position to drive on Skopje...

[sergbuto]

Ok, Macedonia actually did the same as Sakashvili did.
They hired Su-25s and Mi-24s (plus Pilots) from Ukraine and let the Albanians have it.
Problem is, the Albanian army was definitely not in a position to drive on Skopje...
I am talking about how the situation was handled after the conflict in Macedonia. If Sakashvilli claimed he is a democrat, he should have tried to do similar things as in Macedonia to dissolve the consequences of the 1991 conflict in Georgia.

[raymond6751]

I'm no expert, but the area in Georgia that want to break away is still part of Georgia. So Russia is interfering with the private internal matter of another nation.

It is like if Texas wanted to separate from the USA and during the fight the Mexicans crossed the border and joined in.

In the past, UN forces have waited to be invited into a conflict area before getting involved past the discussion stages.

Nato has no teeth, being caught up in Afghanistan.

Civil war is civil war. Every effort should be made to bring the fighting to a halt, without going in there with big sticks to hit them until they stop fighting.

[Skybird]

I'm no expert, but the area in Georgia that want to break away is still part of Georgia.
Please care to read what was written to adress this point several times now.

[Steel_Tomb]

What it shows is Russia can invade a sovereign country and now demand a Democratically elected leader be removed or they will keep on bombing! and their not going to leave the country anyway till some vague conditions are met.How long before there's another engineered incident and the Russians grab the rest of the country and this sits ok with you? ,who's the next country that they decide they don't like the policies of and find some excuse to invade? , Ukrainians looking at joining NATO and the EU , their "Traditionally" in the Russian sphere of influence , so I suppose they will probably be next and that's ok to.
There's reason as you put it and there,s knowing right from wrong , and Russia's actions have been wrong. How pathetic. You are in total ignorration of Georgia's and Shaakashvi8li'S share of guilt in this. Being a demoicratically elected president eventually does not save you from being an ultra-nationalistic gangster who opens fire at sleeping civilians at night under the protection of the Olympic ceremonies. the ruzssians may not be saints, but they are not guilty of this 5-day-war - the Georgians asked for it. And now you complain that the russians did not accept to play the weak and defeated, but reacted with the force needed to secure that the agressor was taught the lesson that he deserved and that Russia would turn this surprise attack into an undisputed victory? do you expect them to behave silly?

anyhow, this is purely academic now, since history already has decided the war at hand, and created new facts people have to live with - wether they like them, or not. Sometimes you catch the bear, and sometimes the bear catches you. This time the bear did everything correct and secured this round for himself. If westerners don'T like it, they have to adjust their policies and make sure that they fulfill preconditions in time, that must be set in order to win the next time. Compared to what happened, both the US and Europe reacted relatively calm and restrainful. I think in the Wetsern capitals it was clear from the very beginning that the Russians would and could not afford this provocation to succeed uncountered, and that there was no sense in trying to confront the Russian in their own backyard. as the german essay I linked just said, some things you simply do not even try: like challenging the US in their own backyard that is middle america, or the Russian in their former southern soviet provinces which are part of their backyard. After all is said and done, what remains is the conclusion that shaakashvili acted with maximum stupidity and irresponsibility. Since credits for the mess are his, any complaints go to his office, please.

This week's lesson: if you are the inferior and weak dwarf, then you do not provoke wars against a superior military giant, but try to avoid right this. Also, Russian-NATO relations have changed. The russians demonstrated that they have had enough. It also means that well-meaning european diplomats trying to be cosy and gentle on the russians will need to rethink their perceptions of the russians. russia after all is a major power with teeth to bite, and enough detemrination to use its economic potentials to maximum own advantage. well-meaningly hoping that they will not make use of the strong position in supplying europe with energy, is absilutely inadequate. we need to become indepedent from russian oil and gas, like we need to become independent from Muhammeddan oil as well. Two good reason to change our economy NOW and not to wait until the barrel oil costs 400 dollars.

Ukraine in NATO? Since this has been ever brought up years ago, I was against it. I do not wish NATO to sneak upon russian borders like that. You obviously still do not realise it, but that is totally unacceptable for russia. Oh boy, some people seem to thinik it is a virtue in itself to provoke the russians as m uczh as is possible - no matter at what costs. Have these minds no sense of reason in them? Why are the russians expected to accept what NATO or America never, never would accept in return?

Ah, hopeless debate.
Skybird, you are completely ignoring the fact that the Russians have been teasing the Georgians into a fight for months? That the Russia is a lying scheming power who has been planning this for months. They equip rebels with weapons who attack Georgia, and georgia has the right to defend itself. No they couldn't win the war and perhaps it was stupid, but it the RIGHT thing to do. What position is a nation in IF IT CAN NOT DEFEND ITSELF against blatent aggression. Yes there were civilian casulties and that is VERY regretable, but remember they are using old soviet weaponary and probably the old soviet style of attacking enmass carelessly... they dont have the precision munitions of modern warfare. Its ridiculous. I usually support your arguments without question as you find the middle ground most of us miss, however I can not agree with you here. Your saying, in a larger picture, that perhaps Germany should put up with Russian attacks for weeks and weeks without defending its territory? In case it leads to a larger conflict? Regardless of the size of a nation, it is their RIGHT to respond to any kind of aggression like that, for good or for worse. I don't know the full picture of Georgia's past with SO and ABK but they were provoked into this conflict and paid the price. Its ok for you to say "they shouldn't have attacked" but when its YOUR citizens being shelled and shot at YOU have the responsibility to protect those who put you into office by any means necessary. At the end of the day, there are some nations, and some leaders who WANT conflict. And no matter what you do they WILL get it, weather they storm across your boarders in an all out assault or lie political traps for you to fall into. If you don't stand up to the playground bully, they get bolder and bolder until one day they suddenly realise "I can do what I want, no one else has tried to stop me". When will it end? Will it end with Russia's ego satisfied? Perhaps. Or will it end with the Russian occupation of Ukraine, removing that "thorn in their side" who wants to me more like western nations instead of that backwards oppressive regime that currently inhabits the Kremlin. I'm surprised by some peoples complete contempt for the Georgians, they may have done things wrong in the past... but so have we. Britain and Germany are responsible for some unspeakable crimes in history, but we, for the most of the time get the respect that is deserved. It may seem a trivial issue and a no brainer to stay out of the conflict for some people/nations... but for those who have lost loved ones and had their lives completely destroyed, I can assure you this is no trivial matter! :damn::nope:

I'm going to stop now, rant over.

[AntEater]

but for those who have lost loved ones and had their lives completely destroyed, I can assure you this is no trivial matter!
Fortunately displaced persons and crimes do only exist if english speaking reporters can see them, apparently.
:damn:
It suprises me that apparently BBC, CNN and whoever have zero people on the russian side. Strange, isn't it? Is there any english language reporter in Zchinvali? In Northern Ossetia?
Apparently not.
And if they don't have sources, why don't they quote their german colleagues who are there and are definitely not Kremlin brainwashed morons?
BOTH german public TV stations have correspontents on both sides in Tbilisi, Vladikavkaz and one even in Zchinvali itself. That is apparently a thing of utter impossibilitiy for the news giants BBC and CNN.
Not trusting russian sources is a good thing. Sending no one to the other side of an international conflict is not.

[Skybird]

Skybird, you are completely ignoring the fact that the Russians have been teasing the Georgians into a fight for months?

No. I just don't see it as simple in reverse as you make it appear. I agree with those saying that Shaakashvilli went totally nuts five days ago. and that attaclk was NOT provoked by the russians - but probably motivated by support in advisors and material from the US and the Ukraine.


That the Russia is a lying scheming power who has been planning this for months. They equip rebels with weapons who attack Georgia, and georgia has the right to defend itself.

You ignore the legal rights of the Ossetians - wzho have been victims of Georgian atrocities repeatedly in the past 15 years.


No they couldn't win the war and perhaps it was stupid, but it the RIGHT thing to do. What position is a nation in IF IT CAN NOT DEFEND ITSELF against blatent aggression.

What - you want to tell me the Georgians did the right thing when launching events five days ago that brought them to where they are now? Do you expect me to take you serious?


Yes there were civilian casulties and that is VERY regretable, but remember they are using old soviet weaponary and probably the old soviet style of attacking enmass carelessly...

Not to mention Georgians starting to shell a city at the Olympia night by surprise when nobody was expecting a strike. and regaridng your cyncial reference to the old soviet weapons - are you expecting me to take hat statement seriously? Is massacring civilian population more excusable becasue it is done with old soviet weaponry? Man, check your standards.


they dont have the precision munitions of modern warfare. Its ridiculous.

I agree. Your distorted moralism regarding weapon tech is ridiculous indeed. And murderous.


I usually support your arguments without question as you find the middle ground most of us miss, however I can not agree with you here. Your saying, in a larger picture, that perhaps Germany should put up with Russian attacks for weeks and weeks without defending its territory?

Where have I?


In case it leads to a larger conflict? Regardless of the size of a nation, it is their RIGHT to respond to any kind of aggression like that, for good or for worse.

I repeatedly pointed out to the historic origin of the current borders,a nd theat they are not matching ethnic realities on the ground, and are a distortion from the Stalinist time. Don't expect me to repeat it all. Borders that do not make sense will be a cause of constant conflict: I'm sure you know some nations that were constructed by colonial powers in total disrespect for population patterns on the ground that come to your mind to illustrate like this leads to bloodshed untiol today.


I don't know the full picture of Georgia's past with SO and ABK but they were provoked into this conflict and paid the price.

No, this time they have been the prpvokers themselves - and they got caught while their pants still were down. Thus the spanking. Russia could not afford to be ridioculed in that way and not reacting to it, if it wants to be taken serious in the future, and wans to be seen as a major power. The US would not have accepted it, too, if having been in the Russians place.


Its ok for you to say "they shouldn't have attacked" but when its YOUR citizens being shelled and shot at YOU have the responsibility to protect those who put you into office by any means necessary.

You still live by the assumption that it all was the mistake of the Ossetians, and the Georgians were provoked, and are the victims here. I do not share your assessment. For me Shaakashvili is the repsnobile foigur for this mess. He acted stupid, and is a known hot-head and laserbrain, a man who easily gets emotional. that is no good advisor in politics, especially when being in conflioczt wotzh a superior opponent. see where it got him. The price must be payed by his people - even by those who did not vote for him. I hate it when politicians argue on the basis of emoptions, and act by that. Helmiuzt Schmidt, my "idol, carefully said, hates it as well. Emotional politics only lead to confused minds.


At the end of the day, there are some nations, and some leaders who WANT conflict. And no matter what you do they WILL get it, weather they storm across your boarders in an all out assault or lie political traps for you to fall into.

I said that myself. However, Georgia was stupid enough to present the Russians on a silver plate a very solid excuse to shift into high gear. How stupid must one be to do so and think one would get western troops for such a suicidal gamble? did he really expect the Russian would not reqact becase of Olympia, and NATO would start shooting on Russian soldiers? Is that man even grown up already?


Steel, I have the feeling that all answers you trigger me to give, I already have given several times before, and that it would not make any difference for you anyway, so I stop here. You either care to read my past postings or not, and you either agree with them or not. It changes the new reality of today and the correctness of my description of what happened and why - not a bit.

;) Peace to you (and to all who deserve it)!

[Happy Times]

He lead a coup attempt once and was the head of a soviet puppet goverment the other! What more do you need?:doh:
Oh I'm not denying his ambitions and attempts, I'm just acknowledging that there are differences between overthrow attempts. Some are more significant and some less so. For example the fact that the whole Finnish civil war was more or less a sideshow for the nascent bolshevik nation whereas the Germans were supplying the whites with soldiers, material, the works. The same folks who in a span of a little more than a decade would start the WW2. So there are two sides to every issue.

Otto-Ville was a reasonably tough fellow but he didn't really get that much help from the bolsheviks for it to qualify a proper significant overthow attempt. You're naturally welcome to think otherwise.

Maybe you should read some history books written by HISTORIANS? Bolseviks accepted a lot of declarations after October Revolution, they thought they would become Soviet republics and join back. When that didnt happen the attempted to do it by force, in Estonia for exsample that had its War of Indepence also in 1918.
Or GEORGIA that declared indepence 1918 and in 1921 Red Army invaded and installed a Bolsevik puppet goverment. You are ignorant or indoctrinated by someone, if they didnt care about Finland why did they try so hard to come here.:doh:
There are all kinds of historians. Even people like David Irving can call themselves historians. And believe it or not even the Russians/former Soviets have their own historians. Not that you would accept anything they write as fact I'm sure.

So the Finnish civil war was an attempt by the Bolsheviks to take over Finland by force? Why didn't they send enough Russian troops to help the poor peasants then? Why let a bunch of Finnish peasents be killed by, among others, German troops? Wasn't it their overthrow attempt?

The troops where from all over USSR, also from Siberia and i hardly think they knew in -39 they were going to fight the Germans in the gates of Moscow. Your writing your own history.
Well I can provide you with knowledge about the attacks against Moscow and also about the troops used in Winter War and also the Continuation War by the Soviets. There wasn't an endless supply of the Siberian winter troops. In -39 the Soviets already knew a lot trough Molotov-Ribbentrop and also through other channels. Not really a question of what they knew but what Stalin did about things. He made a lot of mistakes in terms of human lives lost but in the end the Soviets won the war so arguing about mistakes seems a little arbitrary afterwards.

One has to bear in mind that the situation was very dire for the Soviets, it wasn't just a question of winning or losing and perhaps changing the form of government afterwards. It was a fight of survival of their 'race', of all slavs and eastern people against people who wanted to annilate them all and came very close to doing so.

They tried to infiltrate the society in all levels their ultimate goal was to annex Finland.
Read this sample before you ask again, you can get the book and many others on the subject from the LIBRARY.
http://www.ajatuskirjat.fi/suomi/lukunayte_1353.asp
Yea I'm sure there was all kinds of political wrangling going back and forth. The nazis also had their guys in Finland and these guys were welcomed with open arms, Hitler celebrated his birthday here. After the war there were also spies from the west in Finland all the time, we never hear about these guys. Or about for example the orders that CIA gave to Finnish politicians and economy. Or about Finns willingly making Swedish an official language in our country and forcing kids to learn it. To me this seems more concrete then some political party scheming, the way I see it all parties have their dark secrets. Even the Finnish right-wingers from their times with the nazis etc.

You are really confused.
Yet USA pressured Stalin that he should settle for the Winter War borders.

During the Finnish-Russian War of 1939-40 (the Winter War), Finnish Jews fought alongside their non-Jewish fellow countrymen. During the Finnish-Russian War of 1941-44, in which Finnish Jews also took part, Finland and Nazi-Germany were co-belligerents. Despite strong German pressure, the Finnish Government refused to take action against Finnish nationals of Jewish origin who thus continued to enjoy full civil rights throughout the War. There are many interesting anecdotes from this period, concerning, among others, the presence of a Jewish prayer tent on the Russian front virtually under the Nazi's noses and the food help given to Russian-Jewish POWs by the Jewish communities of Finland.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Finland.html

We were "alltogether nice" as the situation allowed compared to any participant country in WW2
Still they sold weapons to the Soviets.

Also the Americans delayed help to Finland meaning that for example the Brewster fighters arrived way too late and weren't of any use in Winter War.

Here's a link to the info.
http://www.verkkouutiset.fi/arkisto/Arkisto_2000/7.huhtikuu/talv1400.htm

Nevakivi has also written more about the subject, his works are a good place to start if you want to read something of value concerning the political history of Finland in WW2. He's also a very good lecturer.

As for Finland being a model nation in WW2, tell that to the relatives of the 8 Jewish citizens we gave to the gas chambers and the POW's with tens of Jewish people among them. Or the Russian POW's who died in our POW - camps, or the Russian citizens who were kept in concentration camps at the beginning of the war, many of them died including women and children. Or maybe the civilians who starved to death in Leningrad which was sieged by the Germans and Finns were helping them. Or concentration camp prisoners dying around Europe because the war was dragging on because some countries chose to fight for the Germans instead of against them.

Also you forgot mention the Finnish rightwingers who were a direct equivalent of the nazis in Finland. The IKL was a small group but they had significant power in Finnish society for a long time. Their remnants are still around spouting racist and xenophobic rhetoric, I'm sure you subscribe to their viewpoints wholeheartedly.

Read the book and a few more, maybe you will see the the light at the end of the tunnel you are in.
Maybe it's you who should read a book or two, and not just 'ajatuskirjat' but books by should I say historians of higher caliber. If you plan on studying history in a university or writing historical journals intended for a larger public don't be shocked if you will not be allowed to use Ajatuskirjat as a source.

I have read Nevakivis works as of Hentiläs, Vihavainens and Polvinens etc..
Or does only Tampere University come in to question?
Many well known historians have published in Ajatus.
You take facts and you twist them suit your worldwiew that is clearly socialist and anti american. You sound like the Taistolais Communists of the 70s.. There is no point continuing this discussion, my blood boils allready and we probably will never agree because you have a clear agenda. I will respond only if someone else feels the need for it.

[AntEater]

Goodwinov's Law??
:rotfl:

Seriously, can't we solve the finnish Historikerstreit in another thread?

[Happy Times]

Isn't there some variant to the "Godwin law" that would include using the word "communist" to try to end an argument ?

He accused me being a Nazi/Facist .

[AntEater]

Thats the consequence of goodwin's law
for every nazi there is, there must be a communist
Ying and Yang
:rotfl:

[Konovalov]

Thats the consequence of goodwin's law
for every nazi there is, there must be a communist
Ying and Yang
:rotfl:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: I saw that coming.

[Skybird]

Thats the consequence of goodwin's law
for every nazi there is, there must be a communist
Ying and Yang
:rotfl:
:lol: That perspective equals eternal doom for both of them.

Strange that the Russians behave so tame now. They refuse to even mantion the territorial integrity of Georgia of course, else they adapt to the EU peace plan and use Sarko as a messenger for it. They could easily afford to dictate conditions, what I would have expected them to do. But it seems they are in so total dominance of the situation and momentum that they will get what they want anyway and can afford to relieve pressure on the (uneffective) diplomatic front as well. Why behaving like a bully anymore if things come your way with you just waiting, sitting and smiling...

Sarko in first line again, why am I not surprised. but does he really take himself serious and think the Russians do not use him as a running Lackey, smiling about him behind his back? He had nothing to offer when coming, not in threats, not in presents. I think he is just at hand, and so they use him. Of course the cameras are on him. And of course that makes him grinning wide from one ear to the other. Chimp! Wave a mike like a banana and he goes ugah-ugah! :lol:

[AntEater]

Georgia/Russia: Use of Rocket Systems Can Harm Civilians
12 Aug 2008 20:24:08 GMT
Source: Human Rights Watch
Thanks a lot, Captain Obvious...
:damn::rotfl::damn:

[Oberon]

Georgia/Russia: Use of Rocket Systems Can Harm Civilians
12 Aug 2008 20:24:08 GMT
Source: Human Rights Watch
Thanks a lot, Captain Obvious...
:damn::rotfl::damn:


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

That's like the warning on KP Peanuts "Caution: May contain nuts."

[Skybird]

This sums it up nicely. just the part recommending to bind former southern Soviet provinces closer to the West finds my opposition, naturally.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-571680,00.html


Russia's strongman Vladimir Putin has achieved his goal in Georgia -- the country has been destabilized. And the West will have to look on powerless when its ally, Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, is eventually driven from office.

The march on Tbilisi has been called off, if such plans ever existed. Russian President Dimitry Medvedev has announced the end of military operations in the Caucasus for the time being. According to sources in Moscow, some in the Russian military found it very painful to have to halt the advance just 90 kilometers from the office of Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili. The hardliners would have loved nothing more than to do a bit of clearing up in the headquarters of this Georgian hothead.


But hasn't Russia already achieved everything it had set out to achieve? Moscow will now argue that it has fulfilled its "peacekeeping mission" as Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin puts it, and that it has stuck to international agreements regarding the Caucasus by protecting one side and restraining the other. Now only one task remains -- Saakashvili needs to go, say the Russians.

And that poses the next quandary for the West. Russia will now stress its readiness to enter negotiations, but only on one condition -- that Saakashvili quits. The Russians will demand that the West (and especially the Americans) let their their darling go.

Russia had already indicated its position on Monday when Putin drew parallels between Saakashvili and Saddam Hussein. One could understand that the Americans had hanged the criminal Saddam, said Putin. But he added that it was a scandal that the US had a totally different stance in the case of Saakashvilli and had even provided eight aircraft to transport the Georgian soldiers stationed in Iraq to join the fighting in Georgia.

So Moscow is calling for Saakashvili's head as a precondition for resolving the conflict -- and the West dearly wants a resolution. But the West accedes to Moscow's demand, it will publicly embarrass itself. On the other hand such an outcome would be logical. As columnist Bruce Anderson wrote in Britain's Independent newspaper: "In diplomacy, strategy and geopolitics, our political leaders have been guilty of multiple failures over many years." All the talk about a possible Georgian membership of NATO only encouraged Tbilisi to embark on its military adventure. Saakashvili already felt like a full NATO partner and thought he could provoke Russia without punishment. And the Russians thought it was time to teach him a lesson.

No one in NATO is likely to have even considered hurling themselves into the breach for tiny Georgia. The Americans need Russia to help them keep Iran in line. With its show of military might Moscow has reminded the West where part of its oil and gas come from. And it has shown the countries in the gray zone between East and West -- Georgia, Ukraine and the former Soviet Central Asian states -- that it makes no sense to seek protection from a West that only gives empty promises. It's true, security guarantees and pledges of solidarity aren't worth much if they run counter to the West's own strategic interests. The Poles know that all too well -- they hoped in vain for help from their friends in 1939, the British and the French, when Hitler and Stalin invaded their country.

But amid all the tragedy, Saakashvili's behavior does have a beneficial element. The Caucasus conflict may now trigger a deeper debate in the West about how to deal with the states of the former Soviet Union. It would probably have been better if Europe had been quicker to bind Georgia and the Ukraine to the European Union. But Brussels thought that was "premature" while both countries were busy talking about NATO membership.

The Russians are on the home stretch. Georgia is destabilized and Tbilisi may well soon have a pro-Russian government. The Germans won't be playing much of a role in the diplomatic wrangling over the next few weeks even if Chancellor Angela Merkel's summit meeting with Medvedev in Sochi on Friday does focus solely on the Georgian question. German foreign ministry state secretary Gernot Erler defended the meeting by saying Medvedev was the man to talk to on foreign policy affairs. "Medvedev takes the decisions," said Erler, even though he knows that is not the case. Merkel may be travelling to Sochi but the man who pulls the strings -- Prime Minister Vladimir Putin -- will be sitting 1,800 kilometers north of there, in Moscow.

That is evident not only in Putin's crisis management regarding Georgia but in all his moves to intervene in foreign policy since Medvedev took power. At the end of May, it was Putin who made the important trip to France, the current holder of the rotating EU presidency, not Medvedev, as previously announced. It was Putin who talked to US President George W. Bush and French President Nicolas Sarkozy in Beijing.

Many in Moscow refer to Medvedev as "mini-Putin" -- and are hanging their portrait of Putin back up next to that if Medvedev in their government offices.

Mini-Me, anyone? "Eeeeeek!"

[Deadlef]

I didn't see this anywhere (did a search)

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/12/georgia.rally/index.html

TBILISI, Georgia (CNN) -- The presidents of Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia and Poland appeared Tuesday night on stage at a rally with Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, whose country is engaged in a conflict with Russia. (emphasis mine)

The rally was held before a large crowd in the capital. Earlier in the day, tens of thousands of Georgians, some with tears in their eyes, had gathered for a rally in front of the parliament building in Georgia's capital, Tbilisi.

Waving above the crowd during the earlier rally were dozens of flags: red-and-white Georgian ones; a few red, blue and-orange striped banners of Armenia; and at least two American flags. Georgia has been a strong U.S. ally.

Banners reading "Stop Russia!" were seen in the crowd as well as others showing a picture of a tank with a red X through it that said, "Free us from Russian war."

Another said, "Soldiers! The whole Georgia is with you!" One person held a poster of the Russian flag with a Nazi swastika imposed on it.

"This is the nation of Georgia and, you, all Europeans see that we don't surrender. ... If you want to learn something about freedom, come to Georgia. Long live Georgia," one speaker said.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Tuesday he ordered an end to military operations against Georgia, but the former Soviet republic reported more Russian attacks after Medvedev's statement.



The announcement came minutes before French President Nicolas Sarkozy was to land in Moscow, Russia, to meet with Medvedev to negotiate terms for a possible cease-fire.



The rallies in Tbilisi followed five days of fighting that began in the Georgian breakaway region of South Ossetia and spread into Georgia. Russian tanks began rolling into the area soon after hostilities began.
Saakashvili has accused Russia of provoking the war to justify a full-scale invasion of the former Soviet state. The Russians said Saakashvili attacked first in an attempt to gain control of South Ossetia.

[AntEater]

Nice allies they have:

- Yushtshenko: Should tread more carefully, as his majority is fragile but basically he's still the best of the bunch. Had to row back tremendously in his premature statement regarding the black sea fleet. Still his policy of ukrainian nationalism in a country where about 50% of the population are not ukrainian is, midly put, not really up to modern standards in minority policy.

- the baltic heads of state: who treat their russian minorities like second class citizens and think that Estonians and Latvians fighting for the Waffen-SS in WW2 did the right thing and are heroes. The criticism of treatment of Russians does not come from Putin or me but from the european court of justice, hardly a russian propaganda machine. I know Happy Times will disagree and say russians deserve it (basically because they're russian).
Funny is all of them never experienced soviet suffering firsthand, as they are all from the US.

- Kaczynski: this guy is simply a moron and all of Germany no matter wether left or right agrees on that, as does well as every Pole I know and every Pole who is not a bigot, a racist or a religious fanatic because this guy is all in one Person. His favorite subjects are actually germans and homosexuals, the greatest threats to Poland. Russia comes only third.
Even without his racism, his political standpoints make Rush Limbaugh look like a left-wing liberal.

That is a collection of the above mentioned fringe nationalists.
Quote Kaczinsky today: "Our eastern neighbours have shown their true face, one which we have known for hundreds of years".
That basically means, he is not anti-russian because Putin is authoritarian, but because Russians are simply an eternal enemy.
Nice to have such modern views in the 21st century and in the EU
Germans have to tolerate the flood of racist diatribes from this guy for three years now and even our politician's patience wore thin sometimes.

[TLAM Strike]

Georgia/Russia: Use of Rocket Systems Can Harm Civilians
12 Aug 2008 20:24:08 GMT
Source: Human Rights Watch
Thanks a lot, Captain Obvious...
:damn::rotfl::damn:


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

That's like the warning on KP Peanuts "Caution: May contain nuts."

Not as stupid as you think, peanuts are legumes (like Peas) not nuts. :know:

[Skybird]

Saw a brief summary/report of that rally on TV, heared Shaakashvilli speaking. Wallowing emotions, nationalistic pathos, lies and denial of reality, and no sign of intelligent life anywhere.

First provoking a messing up of things, and then crying crocodile's tears about themselves. Losers. :nope:

*********

Okay, the show all in all seems to be over. I see no reason why to carry on this thread. Expect to see me making myself rare in here.

[AntEater]

Ok, I know enough georgians:
They're hot-blooded and temperamental, but not stupid.
Basicall caucasian mentality is not dissimilar to that of Latinos.
The will not suddenly start to like the russians, but they will ask questions.

[Happy Times]

- Yushtshenko: Should tread more carefully, as his majority is fragile but basically he's still the best of the bunch. Had to row back tremendously in his premature statement regarding the black sea fleet. Still his policy of ukrainian nationalism in a country where about 50% of the population are not ukrainian is, midly put, not really up to modern standards in minority policy.

Remember when someone tried to poison him, wonder who was behind that.
77.8% Ukrainian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

- the baltic heads of state: who treat their russian minorities like second class citizens and think that Estonians and Latvians fighting for the Waffen-SS in WW2 did the right thing and are heroes. The criticism of treatment of Russians does not come from Putin or me but from the european court of justice, hardly a russian propaganda machine. I know Happy Times will disagree and say russians deserve it (basically because they're russian).
Funny is all of them never experienced soviet suffering firsthand, as they are all from the US.


You meen those that arent citizens of Baltic states but have Russian passport and call for a Russian re-occupation. The ones that have embraced their new countries do fine.They wouldnt be there without the occupation of the countries and the following genocide and russification. Dont the Balts have a right to their own nation states that has their own language as the official one. Maybe you should give the Turkish an official status in Germany.
The Baltic Waffen-SS formations were moslty drafted and didint commit atrocities, this was recognized in the Nurnberg trials.



- Kaczynski: this guy is simply a moron and all of Germany no matter wether left or right agrees on that, as does well as every Pole I know and every Pole who is not a bigot, a racist or a religious fanatic because this guy is all in one Person. His favorite subjects are actually germans and homosexuals, the greatest threats to Poland. Russia comes only third.
Even without his racism, his political standpoints make Rush Limbaugh look like a left-wing liberal.

That is a collection of the above mentioned fringe nationalists.
Quote Kaczinsky today: "Our eastern neighbours have shown their true face, one which we have known for hundreds of years".
That basically means, he is not anti-russian because Putin is authoritarian, but because Russians are simply an eternal enemy.
Nice to have such modern views in the 21st century and in the EU
Germans have to tolerate the flood of racist diatribes from this guy for three years now and even our politician's patience wore thin sometimes.


On this i agree, he is a weirdo but those wiews are all comparable to something that comes out of Putins mouth aswell.

[darius359au]

What it shows is Russia can invade a sovereign country and now demand a Democratically elected leader be removed or they will keep on bombing! and their not going to leave the country anyway till some vague conditions are met.How long before there's another engineered incident and the Russians grab the rest of the country and this sits ok with you? ,who's the next country that they decide they don't like the policies of and find some excuse to invade? , Ukrainians looking at joining NATO and the EU , their "Traditionally" in the Russian sphere of influence , so I suppose they will probably be next and that's ok to.
There's reason as you put it and there,s knowing right from wrong , and Russia's actions have been wrong. How pathetic. You are in total ignorration of Georgia's and Shaakashvi8li'S share of guilt in this. Being a demoicratically elected president eventually does not save you from being an ultra-nationalistic gangster who opens fire at sleeping civilians at night under the protection of the Olympic ceremonies. the ruzssians may not be saints, but they are not guilty of this 5-day-war - the Georgians asked for it. And now you complain that the russians did not accept to play the weak and defeated, but reacted with the force needed to secure that the agressor was taught the lesson that he deserved and that Russia would turn this surprise attack into an undisputed victory? do you expect them to behave silly?

anyhow, this is purely academic now, since history already has decided the war at hand, and created new facts people have to live with - wether they like them, or not. Sometimes you catch the bear, and sometimes the bear catches you. This time the bear did everything correct and secured this round for himself. If westerners don'T like it, they have to adjust their policies and make sure that they fulfill preconditions in time, that must be set in order to win the next time. Compared to what happened, both the US and Europe reacted relatively calm and restrainful. I think in the Wetsern capitals it was clear from the very beginning that the Russians would and could not afford this provocation to succeed uncountered, and that there was no sense in trying to confront the Russian in their own backyard. as the german essay I linked just said, some things you simply do not even try: like challenging the US in their own backyard that is middle america, or the Russian in their former southern soviet provinces which are part of their backyard. After all is said and done, what remains is the conclusion that shaakashvili acted with maximum stupidity and irresponsibility. Since credits for the mess are his, any complaints go to his office, please.

This week's lesson: if you are the inferior and weak dwarf, then you do not provoke wars against a superior military giant, but try to avoid right this. Also, Russian-NATO relations have changed. The russians demonstrated that they have had enough. It also means that well-meaning european diplomats trying to be cosy and gentle on the russians will need to rethink their perceptions of the russians. russia after all is a major power with teeth to bite, and enough detemrination to use its economic potentials to maximum own advantage. well-meaningly hoping that they will not make use of the strong position in supplying europe with energy, is absilutely inadequate. we need to become indepedent from russian oil and gas, like we need to become independent from Muhammeddan oil as well. Two good reason to change our economy NOW and not to wait until the barrel oil costs 400 dollars.

Ukraine in NATO? Since this has been ever brought up years ago, I was against it. I do not wish NATO to sneak upon russian borders like that. You obviously still do not realise it, but that is totally unacceptable for russia. Oh boy, some people seem to thinik it is a virtue in itself to provoke the russians as m uczh as is possible - no matter at what costs. Have these minds no sense of reason in them? Why are the russians expected to accept what NATO or America never, never would accept in return?

Ah, hopeless debate.
Skybird, you are completely ignoring the fact that the Russians have been teasing the Georgians into a fight for months? That the Russia is a lying scheming power who has been planning this for months. They equip rebels with weapons who attack Georgia, and georgia has the right to defend itself. No they couldn't win the war and perhaps it was stupid, but it the RIGHT thing to do. What position is a nation in IF IT CAN NOT DEFEND ITSELF against blatent aggression. Yes there were civilian casulties and that is VERY regretable, but remember they are using old soviet weaponary and probably the old soviet style of attacking enmass carelessly... they dont have the precision munitions of modern warfare. Its ridiculous. I usually support your arguments without question as you find the middle ground most of us miss, however I can not agree with you here. Your saying, in a larger picture, that perhaps Germany should put up with Russian attacks for weeks and weeks without defending its territory? In case it leads to a larger conflict? Regardless of the size of a nation, it is their RIGHT to respond to any kind of aggression like that, for good or for worse. I don't know the full picture of Georgia's past with SO and ABK but they were provoked into this conflict and paid the price. Its ok for you to say "they shouldn't have attacked" but when its YOUR citizens being shelled and shot at YOU have the responsibility to protect those who put you into office by any means necessary. At the end of the day, there are some nations, and some leaders who WANT conflict. And no matter what you do they WILL get it, weather they storm across your boarders in an all out assault or lie political traps for you to fall into. If you don't stand up to the playground bully, they get bolder and bolder until one day they suddenly realise "I can do what I want, no one else has tried to stop me". When will it end? Will it end with Russia's ego satisfied? Perhaps. Or will it end with the Russian occupation of Ukraine, removing that "thorn in their side" who wants to me more like western nations instead of that backwards oppressive regime that currently inhabits the Kremlin. I'm surprised by some peoples complete contempt for the Georgians, they may have done things wrong in the past... but so have we. Britain and Germany are responsible for some unspeakable crimes in history, but we, for the most of the time get the respect that is deserved. It may seem a trivial issue and a no brainer to stay out of the conflict for some people/nations... but for those who have lost loved ones and had their lives completely destroyed, I can assure you this is no trivial matter! :damn::nope:

I'm going to stop now, rant over.
Agreed , @skybird seems to have no desire to even consider the other side of the conflict , for some reason Russia's actions have all been pure and aboveboard while Georgia is nefarious and evil no matter what:nope:

@Skybird , just for future reference , calling people "Pathetic" etc ,for not agreeing 100% with you, is not a good way to have people take you seriously or to consider you arguments!

[Skybird]

Agreed , @skybird seems to have no desire to even consider the other side of the conflict , for some reason Russia's actions have all been pure and aboveboard while Georgia is nefarious and evil no matter what:nope:

@Skybird , just for future reference , calling people "Pathetic" etc ,for not agreeing 100% with you, is not a good way to have people take you seriously or to consider you arguments!
Consider your own advise yourself. I do not call names - as long as others do not call mine, or put things in my mouth..

[Happy Times]

Good read, i came across.

The making of Russian foreign policy:
lines of (dis)continuity in a process of affirmation


This paper looks at the dynamics underlying Russian foreign policy, with the aim of identifying drivers,
strategies and goals in a process embedded in complexity. The domestic political setting and its inter-play
with the international context are fundamental elements in the analysis of the projection of Russian power and
influence. In a constant search for balance between the national interest, international compromises and the
bargaining/concessions duality, Russia has been pursuing a policy of affirmation, both in regional and
international terms. However, this has been a course where lines of (dis)continuity render it fragile contours
not always easy to grasp. Underlining this course are issues about Russian identity and how this plays both at
the domestic level and in external policy dealings. However, an increasing assertive tone is noticeable.
Whether this is still an expression of a loss of empire not yet overcome or the result of powerful internal
developments is here analyzed. This paper aims, thus, to analyze the Russian foreign policy making shedding
light over lines of continuity and discontinuity in this continuous, though not linear, search for affirmation.

http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/5/4/1/4/pages254149/p254149-1.php

[August]

Now why does this all sound so familiar? :hmm:

[Letum]

Hell of an Olympic Men's Judo fight just now between A Russian and a Georgian
whose home village has recently been evacuated of women and children and
invaded and captured by the Russians.

For 15 minuets+ they waited side by side not making eye contact until another
match, which was running over time, finished.
After they started the Georgian scored twice and then pinned the Russian. After
the first 10 seconds of the pin the Russian gave up and just lay there until the
whole 25 seconds was up to confirm the Georgian victory.

[Konovalov]

There have been reports this morning coming through of Russian tanks and armoured personal carriers back in Gori and Georgian territory. BBC News 24 has just shown video footage courtesy of Danish News channel showing a long line of what look like BMD-3's (airborne forces equipment).

I thought Russia had agreed to a ceasefire and had removed all of it's forces from Georgian territory. Russia has so far denied that they have any forces in Georgia however these images from Danish tv appear to totally refute that claim by Russia.

There are also many reports of looting and revenge attacks going on in South Ossetia. I wonder if Russian ground forces have intentionally positioned themslves such that they are protecting those perpetrating the looting and revenge attacks upon Georgian homes and citizens. :hmm:

[Jimbuna]

Latest news:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7558399.stm

[STEED]

On one of the local BBC radio shows they said full scale war has broken out again! :o Ten minutes latter they retracted that comment. :roll:

[Skybird]

Old bills getting payed back, old hatefilled emotions deriving from too much nationalistic opression and too much mutual violence take revenge. terrorising the civilian population is a tool of warfare - and the war is not over yet. All this is not unexpected. The victors exploit the chance of the hour to create facts - also not unexpected. Georgia allowed to be carried away by emotions and risked it all - and lost it all. Now they must pay.

Has anyone of you really believed that it is over just because a piece of paper reads that it shall be over? This will go on for even more years - just with a Georgia having no more chance in this conflict from having realistic Western perspectives. That the EU proposed to send EU peacekeepers and obviosuly thought the russians would give that even a thought shows how very far off reality the EU is. And how totally helpless. If there will be EU peacekeepers, what I doubt, they will be minimized in effect and improtance even more than the russian were on the Balkans. The EU now feels like the russians must have felt during the Balkan crisis and the Kosovo war and the Kosovo independence.

And I'm totally sure the Russians take grim satisfaction from it.

[Zero Niner]

The Russians, or more specifically Putin, I feel, have overstepped the boundaries and set in motion something that will come back to haunt them. Not immediately, but in the years to come.

[Konovalov]

London Times correspondent Tony Halpinon wo is on the ground Gori, Georgia reports events as Russian amoured column heads south out of Gori: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4522720.ece

A Russian armoured column comprising at least 100 vehicles rolled south from the Georgian city of Gori this afternoon towards the capital, Tbilisi, making a mockery of yesterday's French-brokered ceasefire to end the conflict in the Caucasus.

Civilians fleeing the region also told how separatist militias backed by Russian troops were attacking and killing Georgian villagers in the hills around the town, which is around 17km from the borders of disputed South Ossetia.

[The Russian column, which included armoured personnel carriers, troop-carrying trucks and support trucks with anti-aircraft guns, was witnessed by Times correspondent Tony Halpin, who said: "The ceasefire agreement specified that they were meant to go backwards. They are clearly going forwards."

[Jimbuna]

London Times correspondent Tony Halpinon wo is on the ground Gori, Georgia reports events as Russian amoured column heads south out of Gori: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4522720.ece

A Russian armoured column comprising at least 100 vehicles rolled south from the Georgian city of Gori this afternoon towards the capital, Tbilisi, making a mockery of yesterday's French-brokered ceasefire to end the conflict in the Caucasus.

Civilians fleeing the region also told how separatist militias backed by Russian troops were attacking and killing Georgian villagers in the hills around the town, which is around 17km from the borders of disputed South Ossetia.

[The Russian column, which included armoured personnel carriers, troop-carrying trucks and support trucks with anti-aircraft guns, was witnessed by Times correspondent Tony Halpin, who said: "The ceasefire agreement specified that they were meant to go backwards. They are clearly going forwards."

More to add to 'The Fog of War'

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Russia---Georgia-War-Armed-Gang-Rob-Sky-Man-Outside-Gori/Article/200808215076752?lpos=World%2BNews_0&lid=ARTICLE_15076752_Russia%2B-%2BGeorgia%2BWar%253A%2BArmed%2BGang%2BRob%2BSky%2 BMan%2BOutside%2BGori

[Skybird]

The strong did what they could, and the weak suffered what they must. (Thucydides)

War gives the right of the conquerors to impose any conditions they please upon the vanquished. (Julius Caesar)

[Takeda Shingen]

The strong did what they could, and the weak suffered what they must. (Thucydides)

War gives the right of the conquerors to impose any conditions they please upon the vanquished. (Julius Caesar)

Both written by men sitting comfortably far away from any real strife.

[Skybird]

The strong did what they could, and the weak suffered what they must. (Thucydides)

War gives the right of the conquerors to impose any conditions they please upon the vanquished. (Julius Caesar)

Both written by men sitting comfortably far away from any real strife.
Comfortable or not, nevertheless they precisely described undeniable facts of every war. And the world has not changed a single bit since then.

Conclusion: if you don't like these observations, don't help to get wars started.

[Takeda Shingen]

The strong did what they could, and the weak suffered what they must. (Thucydides)

War gives the right of the conquerors to impose any conditions they please upon the vanquished. (Julius Caesar)

Both written by men sitting comfortably far away from any real strife.
Comfortable or not, nevertheless they precisely described undeniable facts of every war. And the world has not changed a single bit since then.

Conclusion: if you don't like these observations, don't help to get wars started.

Undeniable from their perspective. I am certain that the soldier on the front, the child being butchered and the woman being raped do not see it in such a glib fashion. Thus, the perspective and reality of war are relative to one's experience.

[Type941]

I think this.

EU except poland, baltics, ukraine, is looking for reasons to give Saakashvili up.

US is telling them that this was a trap. There also should be no doubt that this WAS a trap.

A trap for people with bad intelligence, hot blood.

It's a trap they fell into. Hence, they are partly to blame. It's not black and white.

Now Russia is gonna do its thing, and comment nothing or deny. Then do it and say they started it, this was in reply. etc. noone will do anything.

Next Saakashivili. He is the reason why EU will give him up. Why? Because hs is now ****ting his pants, squeeling like a pig. Seems like tehre is overdoing with disinformation. Once EU gets this on large scale, he loses credibility. Russia has never had any credibility, but it's huge and so it doesnt care. Georgia needs credibility, its how it can ensure it's taken seriously. Now the credibility is collapsing, after saakashivili on CNN says he will find to blood - while in suit, not in trenches, when bullets flying. EU is seing this --- naaah, we don't wanna deal with this guy, he is unreliable. Loose cannon. US is on its own with this.

It comes down to do we sacrfice little for the sake of many? Answer is YES in this case and I bet you will see more and more of this. Like we support Georgia territory integrity but without Abkhazia and Osetia. OF COURSE we do. And so it will end Saakashvili power days because he himself acted not as leader but as a nonsnse child. And that's why it's sad.


At least Russians won't send Georigians to death camps, so in that sense its relatively good ending. But Nino Burzanadze as president soon? Very likely. Saakashvili will be in governemnt in excile. PRobably in London.

Russia has a pipeline. Putin has the last laugh for now.

Russia will be this kind of semi nazi state until price of oil falls. You don't want this kind of russia? Make the price of oil drop a lot. Then it will crumble on itself.

This is the crux of the matter.


PS. Ukraine still has a chance to be integrated into EU. Gerogia - forget about it.

so that's all IMHO, feel free to disagree.

[AntEater]

The russians seem to systematically dismantle what is left of the georgian military.
The looting is on part of south Ossetians. They're out for revenge.
Also there are Chechen units operating there. And any ex USSR citizen is downright scared of Chechens.
I hope the russians are willing (and even if they're willing, are they able?) to prevent the worst.
Ossetians are a people of mountain warriors who live by the code of blood revenge.
Remember the Lake Constance plane collision in 2003?
Most victims were ossetian children from Russia.
The father of two of them went to Switzerland and killed the air traffic controller responsible with a knife.
After serving a short prison term he was elected north ossetian minister of something....
Problem is, the neighbouring georgian tribes are almost as warlike. Urban georgians are civilized people but the villagers are basically all the same, no matter what tribe they're from.

Actually we need peacekeepers there, and fast, not so much because of russia and of Georgia, but because of vengeful mountain men armed up to the teeth.
Sadly the Bundeswehr has nothing ready. What EU battlegroup is currently active?

[Konovalov]

Presiden Bush has just stated that he will send in C17's and US Navy vessels with humanitarian aid and expects Russia to allow free passage into Georgian ports and airfields.

Wow. That was quite blunt from the US Administration. A Direct challenge and conemnation to Russia. The US has made it quite clear that they are not just going to stand by and watch Georgia become a Sat state of Russia.

[Type941]

It's not clear only for the blind Sky, as to what Russia is doing now. ;) They have set a trap, georgia fell into it and now the personal vendetta of Putin is punishing Georgia.

Now Bush said he is sending Rice there, etc. They should anyway get rid of russia memembership in WTO (almost entered), G8 and all that ****. They can offer a seat to India or even China, so that Russia won't decide to allign with them.

I'm happy baout sending US Navy. NOw watching Russian spokesman for foreign ministry ---- he is not happy and quite nervously talking. Good.
but this is just posturing. war is lost.

I am happy for Estonia thoug. Our president was there, supported Sarko-Medved plan, talked to French leaders, kind of in the loop now. Good. Same for Polish leaders and so on.

[Skybird]

The strong did what they could, and the weak suffered what they must. (Thucydides)

War gives the right of the conquerors to impose any conditions they please upon the vanquished. (Julius Caesar)

Both written by men sitting comfortably far away from any real strife.
Comfortable or not, nevertheless they precisely described undeniable facts of every war. And the world has not changed a single bit since then.

Conclusion: if you don't like these observations, don't help to get wars started.

Undeniable from their perspective. I am certain that the soldier on the front, the child being butchered and the woman being raped do not see it in such a glib fashion. Thus, the perspective and reality of war are relative to one's experience.
I think you misunderstand the author's intentions, especially Thucydides, and you misunderstand mine when I quote them, or post frankly in a thread like this.

The past years have seen many gung-ho postings here in relation to wars that are in any way pro-West or pro-US, and anti-Russia or anti-badguy or anti-whatever. I do not know how often I was disgusted by the easiness and unscrupelousness and foolishness by which they wishes war would happen better yesterday than today. Because it were wars that were excused by some stupid clichees matching the worldviews they were living by. How easy has it been often wiped off the table when words of cuation wer5e given that that war maybe would not run so nice. And that it may not be wise in the long run to easily accept that provocation. Doesn't matter, if it was "our" war, it was approved to happen, no matter the cost.

for the same reason I talked so freely about using nukes in a war wirth Iran. To get it into people's heads what war with Irahn really would mean: failure caused by good-heartedness and scruples, or using the ultimate firepower of war. Or did you think I can't wait until the first nukes rain down on Iran? I thinik many people here have to many too dangeorus illusions about what war means, and what it is, and what it incorporates. Too much naivety.

the same attitude you could see in this thread by some as well. If they wouldm have their way, we already would have a hot shooting war between NATO and Russia.

What I do by my postings here is pointing at the obvious, self-showing brutaölity ar means, and the simple logic that is needed to provoce somebody going to war over a stupid provocation in the name of highly questionable motives that you have issued yourself.

Thucydides did not heartlessly and cynically minimising the horror of war. He tells the most obvious brutality of it, that his readers may not forget again. And caesar spoke as the victorious conqueroro - who was not shamed to have been victorious, and made clear that he intend to take the price of the fight. and it has been like this since the beginning of manklind and the first rumbles between stoneage tribes.

We, the West, have to ccept our share in having paved the way to war inGeorgia, by making wrong encouragements to Georgia, and ignoring a powerful rival and opponent one time to often. If somebody thinks he must conclude from my accusation that I prefer appeasement towards Russia, he is wrong. What I want is realism in our perception of russia, ourselves, and the world'S status quo. We are too much driven by our own self-glorification, and idealisation of ourselves. By being like that, and having run policy according to that, we have done our share to make things in Georgia turning out the way they have.

If you play with fire, don't complain if you get your fingers burnt. If you want to be able to keep the Russians in check next time, you have to do your homework first, and make very substantial chnages in your policies, in your relations to them, and regarding the degrees of freedom for your own actions, and your own limitations and dependencies. Only that way you can hope to fulfill precodnito9ons that need to be fulfilled in order to perform better next time. Just to complain that the scorpion stung while you were stupid enough to mock it with your finger and push it around, is infantile. If we wpould not have encouraged Georgia since many years to go into a direction that very nessecarily must be seen as a provocation and violation of vital interests from the Russian side, things would not be like they are today. Some say that the status quo is evoidence that we should have taken Georgia into NATO even earlier. I can only shake my head on that, It shows me that these people have learned nothing from current events, and are eager top mess up even greater time if nonly being given the opportunity.

we did what we did, and due to that now the victor does what he can, and the defeated must suffer what they must.

If that is a problem for somebody, make sure the West fulfilly preconditions to do better next time, and stops doing stupid things.

[AntEater]

Russia's problem and Russia's advantage in that conflict is one simple fact:

Bush is kind of right, Russia fights this like in the 20th century.
It seems to me that there is no micromanagement from Moscow. The generals got the order to destroy georgia's military capacity and to employ any means at their disposal to archieve this goal.
The west seems to fight wars more for symbolic value with every move directed from Washington or Brussels or whoever leads the respective war. War is a public relations show.
A western power in the same situation would've immidiately stopped hostilities regardless of the tactical position, and if the Georgians are up to something, they would've relied on CNN to condemn killed civilians and shame the other side into stopping.
Russia doesn't give a **** about public relations, they want to the get job done.
Russia's PR for the west was downright disastrous.
Sakashvili could play Bagdhad Bob 24/7 on CNN and Russia did nothing to counter him.

[Skybird]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/washington/13diplo.html?ref=europe&pagewanted=print


During a private dinner on July 9, Ms. Rice’s aides say, she warned President Mikheil Saakashvili (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/mikhail_saakashvili/index.html?inline=nyt-per) of Georgia not to get into a military conflict with Russia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/russiaandtheformersovietunion/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) that Georgia could not win. “She told him, in no uncertain terms, that he had to put a non-use of force pledge on the table,” according to a senior administration official who accompanied Ms. Rice to the Georgian capital.

But publicly, Ms. Rice struck a different tone, one of defiant support for Georgia in the face of Russian pressure. “I’m going to visit a friend and I don’t expect much comment about the United States going to visit a friend,” she told reporters just before arriving in Tbilisi, even as Russian jets were conducting intimidating maneuvers over South Ossetia.

In the five days since the simmering conflict between Russia and Georgia erupted into war, Bush administration officials have been adamant in asserting that they warned the government in Tbilisi not to let Moscow provoke it into a fight — and that they were surprised when their advice went unheeded. Right up until the hours before Georgia launched its attack late last week in South Ossetia, Washington’s top envoy for the region, Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried, and other administration officials were warning the Georgians not to allow the conflict to escalate.

But as Ms. Rice’s two-pronged visit to Tbilisi demonstrates, the accumulation of years of mixed messages may have made the American warnings fall on deaf ears.



Reminds me of stories about mixed message to saddam hussein before he invaded Kuwait 1990.

[OneToughHerring]

Anteater,

good points but the way I see it the west never has to worry about PR disasters because they pretty much 'own' the media to a large extent. They can have the media say exactly what they want. They only have to worry about a couple of hippies running 'indymedia' or some similar grassroots stuff. They can handle those guys. Whereas a country like Russia, especially when they are killing someone the US doesn't want them to kill, will face condemnation by the whole of the global media machine.

[Konovalov]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/washington/13diplo.html?ref=europe&pagewanted=print


During a private dinner on July 9, Ms. Rice’s aides say, she warned President Mikheil Saakashvili (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/mikhail_saakashvili/index.html?inline=nyt-per) of Georgia not to get into a military conflict with Russia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/russiaandtheformersovietunion/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) that Georgia could not win. “She told him, in no uncertain terms, that he had to put a non-use of force pledge on the table,” according to a senior administration official who accompanied Ms. Rice to the Georgian capital.

But publicly, Ms. Rice struck a different tone, one of defiant support for Georgia in the face of Russian pressure. “I’m going to visit a friend and I don’t expect much comment about the United States going to visit a friend,” she told reporters just before arriving in Tbilisi, even as Russian jets were conducting intimidating maneuvers over South Ossetia.

In the five days since the simmering conflict between Russia and Georgia erupted into war, Bush administration officials have been adamant in asserting that they warned the government in Tbilisi not to let Moscow provoke it into a fight — and that they were surprised when their advice went unheeded. Right up until the hours before Georgia launched its attack late last week in South Ossetia, Washington’s top envoy for the region, Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried, and other administration officials were warning the Georgians not to allow the conflict to escalate.

But as Ms. Rice’s two-pronged visit to Tbilisi demonstrates, the accumulation of years of mixed messages may have made the American warnings fall on deaf ears.



Reminds me of stories about mixed message to saddam hussein before he invaded Kuwait 1990.

What was the name of the female Amercian Ambassador who was the deliverer of some of those mixed messages to Saddam in Iraq? And I wonder where she is now? :hmm:

[Randomizer]

Haven't seen these articles posted here:

From STRATFOR.com
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russo_georgian_war_and_balance_power

From informationdesemination blog
http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2008/08/russias-divide-and-conquer-strategy.html

In my view America can only make this crisis worse, potentially much worse and can do nothing to make it better in the near term at any rate. Russia will not return to status quo ante bellum, that seems clear and attempts to delink Russian actions with those taken by NATO in Kosovo founder in a sea of hypocrisy, at least from the Russian perspective. What is not needed is sending the USN combat ships to the Black Sea which might be (according to some observers) a violation of the Mountreux Convention but in any event is likely to be taken as an military escalation by NATO.

http://www.ntip.navy.mil/montreux_convention.shtml

Will let Sir Winston have the last word, it would seem that Georgian Pres. Saakashvili finds himself in the position of:

"... man who gave powder to the Bear. He mixed the powder with the greatest care making sure that not only the ingredients but the proportions were absolutely correct. He rolled it up in a large paper spill , and was about to blow it down the Bear's throat. BUT THE BEAR BLEW FIRST."
Winston Churchill

[Type941]

Skybird, russia is paranoid, scared, and angry. It has been so forever. In good years, it pushes its bordes out, in bad years it caves in. Now money is good, oil is flowing, so it pushes out. This is what this country is all about. Now, if Germans wanna deal with them in nice and cozy relationship and put the rest of Europe in danger - quite frankly, they shouldn't be allowed! Stinks of 1930s too much in air.

[August]

What was the name of the female Amercian Ambassador who was the deliverer of some of those mixed messages to Saddam in Iraq? And I wonder where she is now? :hmm:

You mean Madeline Albright? I thought she went out with the Clinton administration.

[AntEater]

Hmm, Bush condemned again and sends humanitarian aid.
Did Bush read Yeltsin's script for Kosovo???
I mean basically the US is not behaving like a world leader.
I'd expect the US to lead international negotiation efforts, even if the US is pro georgian
Instead, they've kind of given up the diplomatic field to the EU, of all things!
Basically old europe has to do the US's job this time.
Ok, the UKs response was even more underwhelming but there I expected nothing else.

I could think of two possible reasons:either thanks to its extremely nearsighted policy, the US has zero leverage on Russia or thanks to "know-nothingism" and the known cutbacks in the foreign service and over-reliance on the military and intelligence community the US is simply not capable for large scale negotiations anymore.
Apparently a cache of M-16s and a couple of US training sergeants do not equate a trained diplomat or a foreign analyst.

Also it seems to me that recently, despite the obvious quality of the US military, the track record of US-trained foreign militaries is abmysal.

[Konovalov]

What was the name of the female Amercian Ambassador who was the deliverer of some of those mixed messages to Saddam in Iraq? And I wonder where she is now? :hmm:

You mean Madeline Albright? I thought she went out with the Clinton administration.

No, definately not Albright.

Just did a Google search and came up with this lady who is the one I was trying to recall: April Glaspie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie)

[August]

What was the name of the female Amercian Ambassador who was the deliverer of some of those mixed messages to Saddam in Iraq? And I wonder where she is now? :hmm:
You mean Madeline Albright? I thought she went out with the Clinton administration.
No, definately not Albright.

Just did a Google search and came up with this lady who is the one I was trying to recall: April Glaspie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie)


From your wiki article:

But in March 2008 she gave an interview to the Lebanese newspaper Dar al-Hayat.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie#cite_note-6) In the interview, she said she has no regrets about what happened to her. "It is over," Glaspie said. "Nobody wants to take the blame. I am quite happy to take the blame. Perhaps I was not able to make Saddam Hussein believe that we would do what we said we would so, but in all honesty, I don't think anybody in the world could have persuaded him.

[TheSatyr]

From where I'm sitting,it's all pretty simple. Georgia started this war and the Russians intend on making an example of them so this won't happen again.

I may be in the minority but I support the Russian actions here. What I never supported was the extension of NATO to where Russia would be practically surrounded by Nato member countries. Obviously Russia would consider that to be a threat to them.

If the shoe was on the other foot,and if the USA had been surrounded by Warsaw Pact countries I doubt we'd be too happy about it either.

[Steel_Tomb]

Well I suppose this blows Russia out of the water, its just like comical ali... "there are no Americans in Baghdad"... "there are no tanks in Gori". Shows Russia's true colours. They accuse the Georgians of committing ethnic cleansing, while they and SO militia thugs loot, burn and kill all in thier path. So, those who thought Russia was being the dignified good guys can finally see what their chums are up to whilst the Georgians turn out to have been telling the truth all along. I'm glad the USA is sending military assets to the region, Russia should be afraid... you dont f**k with the west and get away scot free. They can go home and watch their medieval regime rot and burn, Putin and the other bigwigs can burn in hell... and then even that would be too nice for them. Russia was on the road to wonderful things, a free media and improving conditions for Russia made it look like there was a bright future and stability ahead for the country, but that has been destroyed by a few peoples greed and want to inflate their egos with a big military and aggressive ambitions. Shame on them.

[Konovalov]

From where I'm sitting,it's all pretty simple. Georgia started this war and the Russians intend on making an example of them so this won't happen again.

I may be in the minority but I support the Russian actions here. What I never supported was the extension of NATO to where Russia would be practically surrounded by Nato member countries. Obviously Russia would consider that to be a threat to them.

If the shoe was on the other foot,and if the USA had been surrounded by Warsaw Pact countries I doubt we'd be too happy about it either.

That is a fairly brief yet accurate assessment of this mess IMO.

[AntEater]

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russo_georgian_war_and_balance_power

Stratfor article that sums it up pretty well.
I agree 100% with it.

[Konovalov]

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russo_georgian_war_and_balance_power

Stratfor article that sums it up pretty well.
I agree 100% with it.

Article was mentioned earlier here. (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=922258&postcount=404) Definately makes for an interesting read. :yep:

[AntEater]

Hadn't seen it before, sorry.

[1480]

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Russian at first denied that tanks were even in Gori but video footage proved otherwise.

About 50 Russian tanks entered Gori in the morning, according to Lomaia. The city of 50,000 lies 15 miles south of South Ossetia, where much of the fighting has taken place.

Russian deputy chief of General Staff Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn admitted that Russians went into Gori, but not in tanks. He said Russians were looking for Georgian officials to talk to about implementing the EU truce but could not find any.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Happy Times]

Guess fo the future.

Russia gets to control South Ossetia and Abkhasia, as before.

Georgia gets international peacekeeping force in place.
Georgia gets increased military aide from US, Israel and NATO.
Georgia gets permanent US military presence with joint command.
Georgia gets a road map to NATO.
Georgia gets in EUs common market.
Georgia gets a road map to EU.
Georgia gets international aid.
Georgia gets more tourists.:p

If this happens, then who won?

[OneToughHerring]

Steel Tomb,

you see the thing is, I don't think Russia is all that afraid of what the US thinks about it's actions. That's power politics, when they know they are strong enough and that they don't have to bow out in their own front yard because US tells them so the tables have turned. US will have to do something, and in it's present precarious state it won't come cheap. There aren't any big reserves to throw to the mix, Afghanistan is flaring up, Iraq is still volatile, Iran, etc. Who knows, maybe this will end up being Russia's lesson to USA for gallivanting on it's war crusades across the Middle East.

[Dowly]

From how I see it, whoever started the "hostilities" on Friday, Russia is the one to blame now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt the truce have one of the points as "both armies pull back to the positions they were before the hostilities started"?.

I dont care what the Georgian army does, but it's pretty obvious they can only move IN THEIR TERRITORY(!!!!!!!!), but what Russia is doing? NOTHING! They are still in Georgia! The f**k they're doing there now?! Peace keeping?

EU, NATO, US do something ffs! I mean, we West should be the "righteous" yadda yadda yaaaaaa, now, Georgia get's no help because of ******* politics?!

A great example for the other small ex-SU countries. "Yeh, change to democracy! It's great!!! If you got any trouble, call us!... oh... if it's the Russians, dont bother calling, we gotta save our own asses first before you, SORRY!"

And lastly, Happy Times, you heard if our president have told anything new? Does she stilll say "It's very concerning" or has she condemned the Russia's attacks?

[Skybird]

Guess fo the future.

Russia gets to control South Ossetia and Abkhasia, as before.

Georgia gets international peacekeeping force in place.
Georgia gets increased military aide from US, Israel and NATO.
Georgia gets permanent US military presence with joint command.
Georgia gets a road map to NATO.
Georgia gets a road map to EU.
Georgia gets international aid.
Georgia gets more tourists.:p

If this happens, then who won?
You said it yourself:

If.

Now there is a factor your left out:
Russia.

NATO in Georgia, Georgia in NATO will not happen. Believe me. even many european nations don't want that anymore. And that you can believe me as well.

[Happy Times]

From how I see it, whoever started the "hostilities" on Friday, Russia is the one to blame now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt the truce have one of the points as "both armies pull back to the positions they were before the hostilities started"?.

I dont care what the Georgian army does, but it's pretty obvious they can only move IN THEIR TERRITORY(!!!!!!!!), but what Russia is doing? NOTHING! They are still in Georgia! The f**k they're doing there now?! Peace keeping?

EU, NATO, US do something ffs! I mean, we West should be the "righteous" yadda yadda yaaaaaa, now, Georgia get's no help because of ******* politics?!

A great example for the other small ex-SU countries. "Yeh, change to democracy! It's great!!! If you got any trouble, call us!... oh... if it's the Russians, dont bother calling, we gotta save our own asses first before you, SORRY!"

And lastly, Happy Times, you heard if our president have told anything new? Does she stilll say "It's very concerning" or has she condemned the Russia's attacks?

No but thats to be expected from her.. But also OSCE presidency is limiting the comments, Stubb would certainly be more critical buts he is negotiating a ceasefire so he cant comment.

[Dowly]

From how I see it, whoever started the "hostilities" on Friday, Russia is the one to blame now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt the truce have one of the points as "both armies pull back to the positions they were before the hostilities started"?.

I dont care what the Georgian army does, but it's pretty obvious they can only move IN THEIR TERRITORY(!!!!!!!!), but what Russia is doing? NOTHING! They are still in Georgia! The f**k they're doing there now?! Peace keeping?

EU, NATO, US do something ffs! I mean, we West should be the "righteous" yadda yadda yaaaaaa, now, Georgia get's no help because of ******* politics?!

A great example for the other small ex-SU countries. "Yeh, change to democracy! It's great!!! If you got any trouble, call us!... oh... if it's the Russians, dont bother calling, we gotta save our own asses first before you, SORRY!"

And lastly, Happy Times, you heard if our president have told anything new? Does she stilll say "It's very concerning" or has she condemned the Russia's attacks?
No but thats to be expected from her.. But also OSCE presidency is limiting the comments, Stubb would certainly be more critical buts he is negotiating a ceasefire so he cant comment.

BOLD: Aye-fricking-men! I, PERSONALLY (IMO,IMHO, etc.), hate she being the president. Before she was elected for the 2nd time, I asked 7 women to give me an honest answer why they voted for her. 6 of them said "Because they wanted to have the 1st woman president". ANd I'm not saying that women couldnt handle the duties of President, but Halonen is more of a grandma type than president-style.

The rest: Yeh, true that. That is understandable. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

From where I'm sitting,it's all pretty simple. Georgia started this war and the Russians intend on making an example of them so this won't happen again.

I may be in the minority but I support the Russian actions here. What I never supported was the extension of NATO to where Russia would be practically surrounded by Nato member countries. Obviously Russia would consider that to be a threat to them.

If the shoe was on the other foot,and if the USA had been surrounded by Warsaw Pact countries I doubt we'd be too happy about it either.

This is back to the basic fundamentals of the crisis, but I'm finding it hard not to agree with the gist of what your saying.

[Skybird]

From where I'm sitting,it's all pretty simple. Georgia started this war and the Russians intend on making an example of them so this won't happen again.

I may be in the minority but I support the Russian actions here. What I never supported was the extension of NATO to where Russia would be practically surrounded by Nato member countries. Obviously Russia would consider that to be a threat to them.

If the shoe was on the other foot,and if the USA had been surrounded by Warsaw Pact countries I doubt we'd be too happy about it either.

This is back to the basic fundamentals of the crisis, but I'm finding it hard not to agree with the gist of what your saying.
The condensate of what it's about. :up: Well said. Why do I need so much longer for saying essentially the same? :lol:

[Dowly]

From where I'm sitting,it's all pretty simple. Georgia started this war and the Russians intend on making an example of them so this won't happen again.

I may be in the minority but I support the Russian actions here. What I never supported was the extension of NATO to where Russia would be practically surrounded by Nato member countries. Obviously Russia would consider that to be a threat to them.

If the shoe was on the other foot,and if the USA had been surrounded by Warsaw Pact countries I doubt we'd be too happy about it either.
This is back to the basic fundamentals of the crisis, but I'm finding it hard not to agree with the gist of what your saying.

Ffs, the war is over. Truce has been negotiated. Russia is breaking it. The continuation of this situation is to be blamed on the russians. :down:

[Type941]

im very surprised by USA response actually. Seems like they are falling into the trap a bit as well.

Russia will cut off all gas very soon. This is now on path to escalation. I think our supplies are about 10-20 days on average. That should be enough to get people negotiating again, I hope someone says at some stage enough is enough. Like Russians fly to Washington or vice versa and sort it out.

This has clearly become USA vs Russia, no more bull****. wow. Would not have believed in this a week ago. How times change. This crisis have surprised me more then once already.

I was pretty sure Saak was given up after he was doing his baby crying and lost all the cred, but seems like US is wiling to test it out a bit longer. Were this the Regan or Kennedy days, it would be safe to say those guys would have ruled the conflict out wihtout looking like idiots, but BUSH track record can end up doing tons of damage to USA and prop Russia even further. Daaamn this will get silly soon. I'm frankly fed up with Russia escalating it - if they wanna be the big people they claim they are, it's time to take real steps and demonstrate they will respect the agreement.


IF WAR STARTS, in SHORT TERM Russia has all the cards. I would not be surpsied if they have even prepared for THAT KIND of scenario. :damn::damn::damn::damn::damn::damn:

[Steel_Tomb]

I'm with Dowly, a truce was negotiated with the Russians. They talk about Georgian aggression? What the f**k is this Russian advance then? Looting and burning towns of a sovereign nation is an ACT OF WAR. Peacekeeping? Please... excuse me while I sneeze, I'm allergic to bullsh**t! I am under no illusions that the Russians will try to advance on the capital, their aim is regime change thatmuch is clear now. The US is sending military & humanitarian aid to the nation for which I'm very thankful. At least someone is taking a strong stand to this invasion. It makes things very uncertain sending US troops to Gerogia, but does Russia REALLY want to start a shooting war with the Yanks? They would be stupid to do so, as any kind of aggression against US personal would bring the EU into conflict with Russia too, which isn't in their interests. I'm hoping that this will cause Russia to hold off for a second, bringing a pause in the attacks.

[Type941]

I'm with Dowly, a truce was negotiated with the Russians. They talk about Georgian aggression? What the f**k is this Russian advance then? Looting and burning towns of a sovereign nation is an ACT OF WAR. Peacekeeping? Please... excuse me while I sneeze, I'm allergic to bullsh**t! I am under no illusions that the Russians will try to advance on the capital, their aim is regime change thatmuch is clear now. The US is sending military & humanitarian aid to the nation for which I'm very thankful. At least someone is taking a strong stand to this invasion. It makes things very uncertain sending US troops to Gerogia, but does Russia REALLY want to start a shooting war with the Yanks? They would be stupid to do so, as any kind of aggression against US personal would bring the EU into conflict with Russia too, which isn't in their interests. I'm hoping that this will cause Russia to hold off for a second, bringing a pause in the attacks.

don't look it. simple story is RUSSIA is on verge of doing something stupid and if they square of with yanks, they should remember that USA is a Nato member which means all the possible implications of Alliance coming into force. And Russia has 4 allies now - Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, and Belarussia.... Guess USA might even go all out and take on Russia, Nuke Iran and there we all go into nuclear holocoust.

It's stupidity of biblical proportions I'm seeing.

And russians keep excalating the talk, I swear it turns them on. This is a dumb game of chicken with nations. THey really need to step back and think where this is heading. one thing is bitchslapping georgia, another is taking a knife to a fight.

Lavrov said USA should admit their virtual project has failed and chose relations with Russia over Georgia. Russia with all its deep rooted connections in the west really does have a lot to lose over Georgia. They should realize this.

[Happy Times]

I'm with Dowly, a truce was negotiated with the Russians. They talk about Georgian aggression? What the f**k is this Russian advance then? Looting and burning towns of a sovereign nation is an ACT OF WAR. Peacekeeping? Please... excuse me while I sneeze, I'm allergic to bullsh**t! I am under no illusions that the Russians will try to advance on the capital, their aim is regime change thatmuch is clear now. The US is sending military & humanitarian aid to the nation for which I'm very thankful. At least someone is taking a strong stand to this invasion. It makes things very uncertain sending US troops to Gerogia, but does Russia REALLY want to start a shooting war with the Yanks? They would be stupid to do so, as any kind of aggression against US personal would bring the EU into conflict with Russia too, which isn't in their interests. I'm hoping that this will cause Russia to hold off for a second, bringing a pause in the attacks.

don't look it. simple story is RUSSIA is on verge of doing something stupid and if they square of with yanks, they should remember that USA is a Nato member which means all the possible implications of Alliance coming into force. And Russia has 4 allies now - Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, and Belarussia.... Guess USA might even go all out and take on Russia, Nuke Iran and there we all go into nuclear holocoust.

It's stupidity of biblical proportions I'm seeing.

And russians keep excalating the talk, I swear it turns them on. This is a dumb game of chicken with nations. THey really need to step back and think where this is heading. one thing is bitchslapping georgia, another is taking a knife to a fight.

Lavrov said USA should admit their virtual project has failed and chose relations with Russia over Georgia. Russia with all its deep rooted connections in the west really does have a lot to lose over Georgia. They should realize this.

I agree, in the long term this is going to hurt Russia.
Many countries have no trust and will left to invest money or co-operation in Russia more than is necessary.

Edit. Putin must go!:rotfl:

[sergbuto]

I actually got stuck at this section from today's news



The BBC's Richard Galpin, at a police checkpoint about 20km from the capital on the Tbilisi-Gori road, said he had seen a column of about 60 Georgian military vehicles, including troop carriers and at least two anti-aircraft guns, heading in the direction of Gori. A source travelling with the column said it was going into a South Ossetian village. The Georgians said they were "on a humanitarian mission".

[Type941]

and this i find very intersting indeed from NYT:

Anna Neistat, one of the researchers, said by telephone from Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, that they had found no evidence so far to substantiate Russian claims of widespread brutality by Georgian troops.
Human Rights Watch has been able to confirm fewer than 100 deaths — a far cry from the death toll of 2,000 regularly cited by Moscow.

I also read a russian source, a Human Right Watch coordinator, handling official humanitarian side, looking at victims etc. In sum, she said that:

1. She saw about 60 or so wounded guys. 90% she said were soldiers.
2. She heard stories of dead people on streets in Tskinvali. She said though she haven't found a single person that actually saw dead people. Only those who said they 'knew that others saw'.
3. She saw one dead old man in Tskinvali being carried out from ruins.

that's it.

She was russian, and she asked *i dont wanna say they are lying, i just dont understand where these figures are coming from!"

4. She said that refugee number is very hard to grasp. They counted about 22000 (not 35000) and that there is a huge number of people going other direction as well into Osetia - i.e. all the volonteers, cossacks, separatist fighters, the lot. So when they come back ... how they counted... etc, so its very sketchy number even on refugees.

You guys make up your own mind. I think that this genocide claim - if it proves wrong - man these guys gonna look silly. But it wont come to that- Russia will stand by its words and say west is lying. As always.

[Happy Times]

I actually got stuck at this section from today's news



The BBC's Richard Galpin, at a police checkpoint about 20km from the capital on the Tbilisi-Gori road, said he had seen a column of about 60 Georgian military vehicles, including troop carriers and at least two anti-aircraft guns, heading in the direction of Gori. A source travelling with the column said it was going into a South Ossetian village. The Georgians said they were "on a humanitarian mission".


You know there are THOUSANDS of ETHNIC GEORGIANS trapped inside South Ossetia with OSCE reports coming that they are being rounded up, killed and raped.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/SO2.jpg/800px-SO2.jpg

[Skybird]

I'm with Dowly, a truce was negotiated with the Russians. They talk about Georgian aggression? What the f**k is this Russian advance then? Looting and burning towns of a sovereign nation is an ACT OF WAR.

They ARE at war. Georgia and Russia are enemies in war. hundreds of them tried to kill each other just short time ago. They threw bombs and missiles and shells at each other. So, they are at war for sure. We have no peace deal. We have a cease fire proposal that so far nobody has signed, and that Russia maybe never will sign, if Shaakashvilli is the one negotiating for Georgia.

It seems that Abchasian rebels do the looting.

To hell with paragrpah riding and paper work! To hell with the sorveriegnity of a hostile nation russia is at war with - Russians have done several expeditions today into abandoned Georgian military bases to take control of equipement and weapons there. Which is a clever thing considering that Georgia is Russia's enemy at war who had launched a surprise attack just five nights agos. you do not trust such people, don't you. I assume russia has no intention indeed to establish a long occupation, and will give back the territories except the two provinces whose population says they do not wish to live under Georgian governing (should one say: terror) anymore. As a matter of fact despite their excpeditions to Georgian military bases to disarm the depots, most of Georgia already and still is not occupied. So, russia will give back those Georgian bases as well. but why should they be so stupid to leave all weapons in there? So that Georgians can pick them up again and point them at the Russians or Ossetians? It also appears to me that they are trying to establish a bufferzone around and in front of those two provinces. Which again follows military reason and logic. The Israelis do it as well.

Peacekeeping? Please... excuse me while I sneeze, I'm allergic to bullsh**t! I am under no illusions that the Russians will try to advance on the capital, their aim is regime change thatmuch is clear now.

I just had a longer TV docu from British and German sources. As a matter of fact at least two columns of 50+ and 100+ vehicles moved towards the capital today - and then turned around, or changed direction. There was nothing between them and the capital, and georgian military organisation has totally collapsed. If they would have wanted to advance into the capital, then by all reason they could have done it twice today, easily, unopposed. As a matter of fact they did not, and did not come under any fire anywhere.

The US is sending military & humanitarian aid to the nation for which I'm very thankful. At least someone is taking a strong stand to this invasion.

Strong stand?

It makes things very uncertain sending US troops to Gerogia, but does Russia REALLY want to start a shooting war with the Yanks?

As a matter of fact the US has logistic units and trainers on the ground there already, since longer time, else they would not be able to announce the sending of huge tranpsort planes so fast. And logistic specialists and combat troops - is not the same thing.

They would be stupid to do so, as any kind of aggression against US personal would bring the EU into conflict with Russia too, which isn't in their interests.

The Us personnel on Georgian ground would be well advised to keep a low profile currently. If they are standing in the way of a russian offensive or operation, do not be too sure the russians would slam in the brakes just because there are some Yank logistic experts happen to stand in front of them. The risk is with the Americans - it is them fielding players on somebody else's playground. and if they play stupid - well, mishaps can happen, like the bombing of the chinese embassy during the air-raids on the Balkans. Cheat happens... Anyhow, aid deliveries probably will go without Russia trying to seriously put them into danger. They could win nothing but loose a little bit by that. If some bright minds tries to use aid transports to smuggle weapons - well, then that would be something different from the russian's perspective.

[Happy Times]

and this i find very intersting indeed from NYT:

Anna Neistat, one of the researchers, said by telephone from Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, that they had found no evidence so far to substantiate Russian claims of widespread brutality by Georgian troops.
Human Rights Watch has been able to confirm fewer than 100 deaths — a far cry from the death toll of 2,000 regularly cited by Moscow.

I also read a russian source, a Human Right Watch coordinator, handling official humanitarian side, looking at victims etc. In sum, she said that:

1. She saw about 60 or so wounded guys. 90% she said were soldiers.
2. She heard stories of dead people on streets in Tskinvali. She said though she haven't found a single person that actually saw dead people. Only those who said they 'knew that others saw'.
3. She saw one dead old man in Tskinvali being carried out from ruins.

that's it.

She was russian, and she asked *i dont wanna say they are lying, i just dont understand where these figures are coming from!"

4. She said that refugee number is very hard to grasp. They counted about 22000 (not 35000) and that there is a huge number of people going other direction as well into Osetia - i.e. all the volonteers, cossacks, separatist fighters, the lot. So when they come back ... how they counted... etc, so its very sketchy number even on refugees.

You guys make up your own mind. I think that this genocide claim - if it proves wrong - man these guys gonna look silly. But it wont come to that- Russia will stand by its words and say west is lying. As always.

Tskhinvali was evacuated before the war, Ossetian children were sent to "summer camps" in Russia, quite an coincidence.

[Type941]

and this i find very intersting indeed from NYT:
Anna Neistat, one of the researchers, said by telephone from Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, that they had found no evidence so far to substantiate Russian claims of widespread brutality by Georgian troops.
Human Rights Watch has been able to confirm fewer than 100 deaths — a far cry from the death toll of 2,000 regularly cited by Moscow.
I also read a russian source, a Human Right Watch coordinator, handling official humanitarian side, looking at victims etc. In sum, she said that:

1. She saw about 60 or so wounded guys. 90% she said were soldiers.
2. She heard stories of dead people on streets in Tskinvali. She said though she haven't found a single person that actually saw dead people. Only those who said they 'knew that others saw'.
3. She saw one dead old man in Tskinvali being carried out from ruins.

that's it.

She was russian, and she asked *i dont wanna say they are lying, i just dont understand where these figures are coming from!"

4. She said that refugee number is very hard to grasp. They counted about 22000 (not 35000) and that there is a huge number of people going other direction as well into Osetia - i.e. all the volonteers, cossacks, separatist fighters, the lot. So when they come back ... how they counted... etc, so its very sketchy number even on refugees.

You guys make up your own mind. I think that this genocide claim - if it proves wrong - man these guys gonna look silly. But it wont come to that- Russia will stand by its words and say west is lying. As always.
Tskhinvali was evacuated before the war, Ossetian children were sent to "summer camps" in Russia, quite an coincidence.




Skybird is obvilious to this and keeps talking about Georgian Terror. Bullshet. Only Georgia is guilty of is falling into trap and attacking russia on provacations. We had these provacations a year ago with the statue in tallinn. We were also on line of bringing troops into City to help policy. we didn't. We were smarter then that that time. It was a TRAP. THings were ready to rally few thousand criminals here and start small uprising. Russia does this. That's what their game is.

[AntEater]

This the Caucasus. Any kind of war there will bring along atrocities.
I'm not defending anyone here, the russian should keep order and if need be, shoot people.
And at the first place, international peacekeepers should come in.
Preferrably EU, mainly German and French, with some Poles, Estonians and so on mixed in so the Georgians will trust them as well. Actually best would be not observes, but people with orders to shoot on sight of trouble.

Problem is, you all can't imagine what this region is like. It is beautiful, for sure, but there ancient traditions do not exist for tourists. People there take things like blood revenge and honour seriously. Tbilisi and the coastal plain of Georgia are an exception, there you have civilized, urban Georgians (who on part refuse to be friends with "mountain people" even in Germany).
In some ways, the Caucasus is worse than Afghanistan.
At least there everybody's a Muslim, so there is some common ground.
In the Caucasus, everybody's a orthodox christian or a muslim as well, but mostly those conversion were to seek alliances with the Ottomans or the Tsar.
Some of those tribes retained their animistic religion until today. The Wolf is the symbol of the Chechens and definitely not Islamic. Until Saudi Jihadis flooded that country in the 1990s, Chechens were pro forma muslim, but had their own animistic wolf god.
The Svani in Georgia (on the border to Abkhazia) worship snakes and kill anyone who kills a snake.
Problem is, Russia understands that the Caucasus is the worst tribal quagmire outside Africa, but the west doesn't.
I suppose Islamic countries with experience in the Region understand, like Turkey.
Interestingly, while everybody slams on old Europe, Turkey is so blatantly pro russian in this that even I am amazed.

[sergbuto]

I actually got stuck at this section from today's news



The BBC's Richard Galpin, at a police checkpoint about 20km from the capital on the Tbilisi-Gori road, said he had seen a column of about 60 Georgian military vehicles, including troop carriers and at least two anti-aircraft guns, heading in the direction of Gori. A source travelling with the column said it was going into a South Ossetian village. The Georgians said they were "on a humanitarian mission".


You know there are THOUSANDS of ETHNIC GEORGIANS trapped inside South Ossetia with OSCE reports coming that they are being rounded up, killed and raped.



With Russian tanks matching towards Tbilisi using the same road (50 tanks os so) as it was claimed all over the place, Georgian send 60(!) military vehicles including troop carriers (!) and AA guns (this part I like at most) for a humanitarian mission to South Ossetia. :roll:

[Happy Times]

I actually got stuck at this section from today's news



The BBC's Richard Galpin, at a police checkpoint about 20km from the capital on the Tbilisi-Gori road, said he had seen a column of about 60 Georgian military vehicles, including troop carriers and at least two anti-aircraft guns, heading in the direction of Gori. A source travelling with the column said it was going into a South Ossetian village. The Georgians said they were "on a humanitarian mission".


You know there are THOUSANDS of ETHNIC GEORGIANS trapped inside South Ossetia with OSCE reports coming that they are being rounded up, killed and raped.



With Russian tanks matching towards Tbilisi using the same road (50 tanks os so) as it was claimed all over the place, Georgian send 60(!) military vehicles including troop carriers (!) and AA guns (this part I like at most) for a humanitarian mission. :roll:

Maybe to brake outr those Georgians trapped inside Ossetia, their marching in their own country unlike the Russians.

[Skybird]

. Actually best would be not observes, but people with orders to shoot on sight of trouble.

Willing to bet money on it happening? A single penny, maybe? The EU will not even try (wise), and the Russians would not allow it (obvious).

[Skybird]

With Russian tanks matching towards Tbilisi using the same road (50 tanks os so) as it was claimed all over the place, Georgian send 60(!) military vehicles including troop carriers (!) and AA guns (this part I like at most) for a humanitarian mission. :roll:

Maybe to brake outr those Georgians trapped inside Ossetia, their marching in their own country unlike the Russians.

Strange - the Ossetians would disagree on that! ;)

But if the Georgians try to get out their own, then okay, one should allow them that. ther ehas been so mjuch hate and bloodshed that it is science fiction to think that one could see a lasting peace and security guarantees for both if forcing both ethnicities to live side by side in that place as if the past 15 years did not had happend.

###

and I thought yesterday this thread is done. The basic ending of the story has set in. nothing that happened today is really unexpected, or totally against what has been projected by yesterday's ending. So - why not slowly but surely letting this one falling down the list? I could assume this would go well with Neal, too. 11 pages is not bad for one thread. :)

I know I cannot demand an end and this is a public board, but as the original author of it and first poster on the war, I can at least make an appeal to everybody that we slowly let it come to an end now.

[Happy Times]

This the Caucasus. Any kind of war there will bring along atrocities.
I'm not defending anyone here, the russian should keep order and if need be, shoot people.
And at the first place, international peacekeepers should come in.
Preferrably EU, mainly German and French, with some Poles, Estonians and so on mixed in so the Georgians will trust them as well. Actually best would be not observes, but people with orders to shoot on sight of trouble.

Problem is, you all can't imagine what this region is like. It is beautiful, for sure, but there ancient traditions do not exist for tourists. People there take things like blood revenge and honour seriously. Tbilisi and the coastal plain of Georgia are an exception, there you have civilized, urban Georgians (who on part refuse to be friends with "mountain people" even in Germany).
In some ways, the Caucasus is worse than Afghanistan.
At least there everybody's a Muslim, so there is some common ground.
In the Caucasus, everybody's a orthodox christian or a muslim as well, but mostly those conversion were to seek alliances with the Ottomans or the Tsar.
Some of those tribes retained their animistic religion until today. The Wolf is the symbol of the Chechens and definitely not Islamic. Until Saudi Jihadis flooded that country in the 1990s, Chechens were pro forma muslim, but had their own animistic wolf god.
The Svani in Georgia (on the border to Abkhazia) worship snakes and kill anyone who kills a snake.
Problem is, Russia understands that the Caucasus is the worst tribal quagmire outside Africa, but the west doesn't.
I suppose Islamic countries with experience in the Region understand, like Turkey.
Interestingly, while everybody slams on old Europe, Turkey is so blatantly pro russian in this that even I am amazed.

Well it seem that the Gerogians didnt kill 2000-3000 thousand civilians but the Ossetian and Abkhasian are doing it right now. :roll:
This tribalism is excatly what the Georgian goverment has worked to end and introduce rule of law with the help of UN, OSCE and EU. You have something against that kind of policy?

[AntEater]

Nope, and I hope they succeed.
But nationalism is not the 21st century way to end tribalism.
Georgia is a proud and ancient (but small) civilization, but it is not the culture and tradition of a sizable part of the citizens of Georgia.
To force everybody to become georgian will not solve problems as much as it solved the soviet union's problems as they tried to assimilate everybody.
That was the reason Abkhazia seceeded.
In soviet times, they had authonomy rights, their own language etc and the georgians took that away.
This country consists of so many different people that even georgians couldn't tell me how many exactly.
The west is right to promote the rule of law and western standards there, but also western standards in treating minorities.
Nationalism might be an option in Poland (where everybody's a Pole if he's not german) or Estonia (where everybody is Estonian if he's not russian), but not in country with maybe a hundred different tribes.

Problem is, the Caucasus is so much behind the rest of Europe (except Africa, maybe the rest of the world) that concepts like "rule of law" or "market economy" might as well come from Mars for all these people are concerned.
Why do you think Chechens fight for Russia, despite of what russians did there? Because Russia understands caucasian logic and loyalties. Russian went into the Caucasus in 1800. They even understood it back then. The georgian royal house, the Bagrationi, did not go into exile after Russia annexed Georgia, they became basically the second most noble family of Russia after the Romanovs. Did you read "War and Peace"? The Prince Bagration mentioned there was the descendant of the Kings of Georgia.
The US went into the Caucasus in 2003. Slight difference in experience, I'd suppose.
Couple that with the Bush administration's usual total ignorance of local circumstances, diplomacy and everything else not directly related to warfare you have the current Situation.

I'm not talking about urban georgians here. These are people like you and me, or better people like the average greek or italian or israeli or urban Turk from Istambul or Ankara.

Wars are normal in that region, in fact, Georgia had countless coups and countercoups in the 1990s.
My old geography Teacher did a ex USSR tour in 1995 and in Tbilisi, ran into a coup. Tank fire shot away the wall of his hotel room...
David once explained me that wars get nasty there as soon as ethnicity is involved.
All those coups were easy on the civilian populace. Armed mountain men would come, demand food, marvel at things like electric hairdriers or kitchen applicances, steal a donkey or two and ask where the enemy is.
He was from Sugdidi, and he said the Abkhazia war was different, because there it was not about who is president, but about tribe, honour, whose land it is and so on.



Btw, whenever this war is over, I strongly suggest you try georgian red wine.
:)

[Type941]

I know I cannot demand an end and this is a public board, but as the original author of it and first poster on the war, I can at least make an appeal to everybody that we slowly let it come to an end now.


Oh please do stay and don't go away. it's interesting to hear someone challenging our opinions.

[sergbuto]

Btw, whenever this war is over, I strongly suggest you try georgian red wine.
:)
Yes, I like Georgian red wine. :up: It is quite good. Georgian people are good too. They were just unlucky with their leaders, so as Russians.

[Happy Times]

Nope, and I hope they succeed.
But nationalism is not the 21st century way to end tribalism.
Georgia is a proud and ancient (but small) civilization, but it is not the culture and tradition of a sizable part of the citizens of Georgia.
To force everybody to become georgian will not solve problems as much as it solved the soviet union's problems as they tried to assimilate everybody.
That was the reason Abkhazia seceeded.
In soviet times, they had authonomy rights, their own language etc and the georgians took that away.
This country consists of so many different people that even georgians couldn't tell me how many exactly.
The west is right to promote the rule of law and western standards there, but also western standards in treating minorities.
Problem is, the Caucasus is so much behind the rest of Europe (except Africa, maybe the rest of the world) that concepts like "rule of law" or "market economy" might as well come from Mars for all these people are concerned.
Why do you think Chechens fight for Russia, despite of what russians did there? Because Russia understands caucasian logic and loyalties.

I'm not talking about urban georgians here. These are people like you and me, or better people like the average greek or italian or israeli or urban Turk from Istambul or Ankara.

Wars are normal in that region, in fact, Georgia had countless coups and countercoups in the 1990s.
My old geography Teacher did a ex USSR tour in 1995 and in Tbilisi, ran into a coup. Tank fire shot away the wall of his hotel room...
David once explained me that wars get nasty there as soon as ethnicity is involved.
All those coups were easy on the civilian populace. Armed mountain men would come, demand food, marvel at things like electric hairdriers or kitchen applicances, steal a donkey or two and ask where the enemy is.
He was from Sugdidi, and he said the Abkhazia war was different, because there it was not about who is president, but about tribe, honour, whose land it is and so on.

Btw, whenever this war is over, I strongly suggest you try georgian red wine.
:)

According to reports i read, the attacks against minorities practically ceased after this goverment came in to power. They arrested and jailed people behind the attacks.
I think this development deserves the continued assistance and encouragement of the EU.

[Skybird]

I know I cannot demand an end and this is a public board, but as the original author of it and first poster on the war, I can at least make an appeal to everybody that we slowly let it come to an end now.


Oh please do stay and don't go away. it's interesting to hear someone challenging our opinions.

You already got my challanges of your opinions ;) .

I think we all have started to talk in circles now, more or less. So far, serious personal offenses have been avoided and no really personal angry flamewar took place. but the longer we stay talking in circles, the more we repeat ourselves - the more it gives an impression of feet stomping - the more chance there is that it becomes nasty.

So again please everybody: let it slowly come to a rest now. Hot debates on critical issues that ended in flamewars we have had enough in past years.

[Konovalov]

Happy Times and Dowly,

Cheer up boys. If you like wargaming as I do then go get yourself a copy of this: Squad Battles - Winter War (http://www.hpssims.com/Pages/products/SB/Winterwar/winterwar.html)

Enjoy some payback as your guys on skis hand out humiliation and punishment to a Russian army that seems to enjoy overwhelming superiority in firepower and numbers.

[AntEater]

What is worth supporting is democracy in Georgia.
Keep in mind Shevardnadse was a hero at first too because he tried to do the same thing Sakashvili did, with about the same success. In fact, he caused the current quagmire with his heavy handed politics.
Now he sits in Baden-Baden as germany's version of a grand hotel dictator :D
Even the georgians I know were fed up with Sakashvili before that crisis. They had high hopes when he came because everybody was fed up with Shevardnadse.
Sakashvili blamed the riots in 2007 on Russia, but that was not the case. The opposition was partially even more pro-american than he was, in fact. The economic situation, thanks to help from outside (the EU actually, not the US who supplied only military stuff) was sound, but Sakasvili had some strange ways of dealing with internal opposition which could be considered a bit stalinesque (unfortunate accidents and the likes).
In times of war, everybody supports their president.
If I were georgian right now, I would support Sakashvili even if I knew he was dead wrong.
In times of war, you stand by your country, right or wrong.
Political questions will be asked once the dust settles.
Maybe Sakashvili will end up as the US's version of grand hotel dictator, not because the russians deposed him, but because he lost an election.

[Skybird]

Or this one:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/2579

Don't know why, but somehow this was my preferred cosim series, especially the first module on germany:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Third_World_War_series

Ah, memories! Three modules combined in one match, i did that as well.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/264873

[Happy Times]

I know I cannot demand an end and this is a public board, but as the original author of it and first poster on the war, I can at least make an appeal to everybody that we slowly let it come to an end now.


Oh please do stay and don't go away. it's interesting to hear someone challenging our opinions.

You already got my challanges of your opinions ;) .

I think we all have started to talk in circles now, more or less. So far, serious personal offenses have been avoided and no really personal angry flamewar took place. but the longer we stay talking in circles, the more we repeat ourselves - the more it gives an impression of feet stomping - the more chance there is that it becomes nasty.

So again please everybody: let it slowly come to a rest now. Hot debates on critical issues that ended in flamewars we have had enough in past years.

:lol:

[Skybird]

Der - lacht...! :huh:

[Happy Times]

Der - lacht...! :huh:
Just messing with you.;)

[Skybird]

Da...! Schon wieder! :o

[Happy Times]

It seems my wiew of Georgias entrapment into this conflict is shared by the Finnish and Estonian defence forces in their statements.

[OneToughHerring]

So is this the latest info? From CNN.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/14/georgia.russia.war/index.html

[Jimbuna]

Sky News:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Russia-Georgia-War-Fears-For-Ceasefire-Sparked-By-Russian-Troop-Build-Up/Article/200808215077798?lpos=World%2BNews_0&lid=ARTICLE_15077798_Russia-Georgia%2BWar%253A%2BFears%2BFor%2BCeasefire%2BSpa rked%2BBy%2BRussian%2BTroop%2BBuild-Up

[OneToughHerring]

So is the glass half-empty or half-full? Does one trust the British view of the foreign ministry of Georgia or the US view of the interior ministry of Georgia? :)

[Type941]

Happy Times, you hearing this? Some finish journo was in Gori when drunk Russian soldiers started just shooting at him for fun. I htink FInland now getting involved stronger - and this is NEW.

[Type941]

Sky News:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Russia-Georgia-War-Fears-For-Ceasefire-Sparked-By-Russian-Troop-Build-Up/Article/200808215077798?lpos=World%2BNews_0&lid=ARTICLE_15077798_Russia-Georgia%2BWar%253A%2BFears%2BFor%2BCeasefire%2BSpa rked%2BBy%2BRussian%2BTroop%2BBuild-Up

they are basically in that video telling him about the phone, he says its not his and they say what, someone gave it to you? and then they tell him to take his shirt of, he says he didnt shoot anyone (taking shirt off should reveal I believe any bruising on shoulders from taking part in fighting from rifle recoil), then they tell him to go, then tell him to sit down again. He is speaking with clear georgian accent, obviously he is scared.

Nice russian military. murderers, now not even controlled by putin. yeah, we all knew it is what it is.

[Happy Times]

Happy Times, you hearing this? Some finish journo was in Gori when drunk Russian soldiers started just shooting at him for fun. I htink FInland now getting involved stronger - and this is NEW.

Finland is ready to send peacekeepers and military observers.

[AntEater]

Hell, why don't you march on St.Petersburg while you're at it????

Actually the same thing happened twice with georgian troops.
Ironically, the first incident was with FOX news (talk about an own goal here!)
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=170_1218723201
The second was turks:
http://trsavunma.com//?q=node/26360 (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LE320268.htm)
One wounded in the head, but only a grazing wound.

[sonar732]

CNN has video of a reporter being shot at by Russian Forces on camera...thank goodness it was only a grazing wound on the arm below the elbow.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/14/vo.gerogia.journalist.shot.gerogiastatetv

[Konovalov]

People care about reporters being shot only when it conveniently backs their agenda, the rest of the time you never hear of it.
How true. Instances where journalists were either shot at or killed in Iraq spring to mind. :hmm:

[Deadlef]

War propaganda?
Russian tanks 'on the move' in Georgia

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/14/georgia.russia.war/index.html

TBILISI, Georgia (CNN) -- Russian forces appeared to be in control of two key Georgian cities early Friday and there were reports of tanks on the move again.


Russia on Thursday said its withdrawal of Gori would be complete within hours -- and the U.S. said it looked like the Russian military was gearing up to leave -- but CNN's Michael Ware confirmed Russian troops were comfortably in control of Gori in the early hours of Friday.

The town was a base for the Georgian military and is near the breakaway South Ossetia province where the conflict began.

Meanwhile, there are reports of Russian vehicles on the move towards Poti, a port city in the west of Georgia.

Georgia's President Mikheil Saakashvili said more than 100 tanks and other vehicles are traveling in convoy between the cities of Senaki and Kutaisi. CNN has not independently confirmed the claim. (emphasis mine)

"I appeal for the help of every civilized person in the world to stop this uncivilized, barbarian, inhuman, treacherous, absolutely outrageous behavior, and to save innocent lives," Saakashvili said.

[snip...]

[CptSimFreak]

CNN has video of a reporter being shot at by Russian Forces on camera...thank goodness it was only a grazing wound on the arm below the elbow.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/14/vo.gerogia.journalist.shot.gerogiastatetv

Why Russian? Why not Osetian, Abhazian or Georgian....or mind as well say sniper was Iraqi terrorist from Afganizatan with Chinese passport and beautiful wife.

[Platapus]

CNN has video of a reporter being shot at by Russian Forces on camera...thank goodness it was only a grazing wound on the arm below the elbow.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/14/vo.gerogia.journalist.shot.gerogiastatetv

Why Russian? Why not Osetian, Abhazian or Georgian....or mind as well say sniper was Iraqi terrorist from Afganizatan with Chinese passport and beautiful wife.

Because the Russians are always the bad guys and therefore anyone who fights the Russians must be good guys and good guys don't shoot reporters? :doh:

[Dmitry Markov]

Photos from South Osetia (they belong to web site www.navoine.ru (http://www.navoine.ru) and were shot by Arkadiy Babchenko)

CAREFUL! SOME OF THEM SHOW BODIES AND WOUNDS!

http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551#551


Just scroll down that page a little bit and here they are...

[Deadlef]

Turkish journalists being shot at whilst driving through South Ossetia

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=SVVpCrBVzVc

note: footage was shot last sunday (august 10), but only released a few days ago.

[Fish]

CNN has video of a reporter being shot at by Russian Forces on camera...thank goodness it was only a grazing wound on the arm below the elbow.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/14/vo.gerogia.journalist.shot.gerogiastatetv

I saw the vid, how do you know it was a russian bullet?
Ever heart of pallywood? ;)

A lot of propaganda going on there, from both sides.

[Jimbuna]

Photos from South Osetia (they belong to web site www.navoine.ru (http://www.navoine.ru) and were shot by Arkadiy Babchenko)

CAREFUL! SOME OF THEM SHOW BODIES AND WOUNDS!

http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551#551


Just scroll down that page a little bit and here they are...

Some startling pictures there :yep:

[Konovalov]

CNN has video of a reporter being shot at by Russian Forces on camera...thank goodness it was only a grazing wound on the arm below the elbow.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/14/vo.gerogia.journalist.shot.gerogiastatetv

I saw the vid, how do you know it was a russian bullet?
Ever heart of pallywood? ;)

A lot of propaganda going on there, from both sides.
Good post Fish. :yep:

[Dmitry Markov]

Turks are lucky - they've been moving in a vehicle with no signs indicating their allegiance to press - they must thank the allmighty they are still alive. Our guys from TV weren't that lucky - 2 are dead shot by Georgians.

[Happy Times]

Turks are lucky - they've been moving in a vehicle with no signs indicating their allegiance to press - they must thank the allmighty they are still alive. Our guys from TV weren't that lucky - 2 are dead shot by Georgians.

Werent they enbedded in a Russian colum?

[geetrue]

I didn't read every post, but couldn't this war on Georgia have something to do with the winter games scheduled in 2014?

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2008-08/10/content_6921024.htm


Battles in the enclave's capital also raised concerns over the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi, near Georgia's western border.
The Russian Black Sea resort of Sochi must build 80 percent of the venues in less than six years. The IOC warned this week that efficiency must be stepped up.

[Happy Times]

I didn't read every post, but couldn't this war on Georgia have something to do with the winter games scheduled in 2014?

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2008-08/10/content_6921024.htm


Battles in the enclave's capital also raised concerns over the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi, near Georgia's western border.
The Russian Black Sea resort of Sochi must build 80 percent of the venues in less than six years. The IOC warned this week that efficiency must be stepped up.


No.

[Molon Labe]

Analysis of the Black Sea Battle (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/while-the-media.html)

[August]

Analysis of the Black Sea Battle (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/while-the-media.html)

From that article:

The war started on Friday August 8th; the Black Sea Fleet was reported to arrive off the coast of Georgia on Saturday August 9th. That's pretty impressive, considering it is about 400 nautical miles from Sevastopol to Ochamchire. While the Moskva, Smetlivy, Muromets, and Aleksandrovets can make good speed and make the trip quickly, those ships sailed from Sevastopol with an assortment of support vessels that could only make 12-16 knots, at best. Simple math reveals that would make it a 25 hour trip, meaning the ships would have had to put to sea almost immediately after the fighting began. For any fleet to deploy that quickly is extraordinary readiness.

Beyond extraordinary imo. It's like Russia had it's fleet and invasion troops already packed and standing by in preparation for the Georgian attack.

[OneToughHerring]

Doesn't really surprise me, Russia and Georgia have been in each others faces since day one. Would be stupid of Russia not to be prepared, and same for Georgia.

Oh well, I'm sure this will be over in a week or even sooner and Russia will go back to doing something that US has no problem with like torturing Chechen mujahadeens or something.

[Jimbuna]

Analysis of the Black Sea Battle (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/while-the-media.html)

From that article:

The war started on Friday August 8th; the Black Sea Fleet was reported to arrive off the coast of Georgia on Saturday August 9th. That's pretty impressive, considering it is about 400 nautical miles from Sevastopol to Ochamchire. While the Moskva, Smetlivy, Muromets, and Aleksandrovets can make good speed and make the trip quickly, those ships sailed from Sevastopol with an assortment of support vessels that could only make 12-16 knots, at best. Simple math reveals that would make it a 25 hour trip, meaning the ships would have had to put to sea almost immediately after the fighting began. For any fleet to deploy that quickly is extraordinary readiness.

Beyond extraordinary imo. It's like Russia had it's fleet and invasion troops already packed and standing by in preparation for the Georgian attack.

Which adds weight to the theories of those who believe Russia set Georgia up :hmm:

[Happy Times]

Analysis of the Black Sea Battle (http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/while-the-media.html)

From that article:

The war started on Friday August 8th; the Black Sea Fleet was reported to arrive off the coast of Georgia on Saturday August 9th. That's pretty impressive, considering it is about 400 nautical miles from Sevastopol to Ochamchire. While the Moskva, Smetlivy, Muromets, and Aleksandrovets can make good speed and make the trip quickly, those ships sailed from Sevastopol with an assortment of support vessels that could only make 12-16 knots, at best. Simple math reveals that would make it a 25 hour trip, meaning the ships would have had to put to sea almost immediately after the fighting began. For any fleet to deploy that quickly is extraordinary readiness.

Beyond extraordinary imo. It's like Russia had it's fleet and invasion troops already packed and standing by in preparation for the Georgian attack.


THANK YOU AUGUST!

The speed of the invasion fleet is something ive been trying to find to make this argument and conclusion.

[Konovalov]

Turks are lucky - they've been moving in a vehicle with no signs indicating their allegiance to press - they must thank the allmighty they are still alive. Our guys from TV weren't that lucky - 2 are dead shot by Georgians.
Ok so they didn't look like press because they didn't have big writing such as "TV" or "PRESS" markings on their vehicle(though I didn't see the outside of their car/4wd). So what did they look like then? How about civilians. Couldn't confuse them for a T-80 or BMP-3 now could they. :hmm:

[Konovalov]

Turks are lucky - they've been moving in a vehicle with no signs indicating their allegiance to press - they must thank the allmighty they are still alive. Our guys from TV weren't that lucky - 2 are dead shot by Georgians.

Werent they enbedded in a Russian colum?
No idea. But those Turkish journalists almost had a few 5.45mm rounds embedded in their foreheads courtesy of some trigger happy Russians with AK-74's. :down: They weren't warning shots, thats for sure. :yep:

[OneToughHerring]

Turks are lucky - they've been moving in a vehicle with no signs indicating their allegiance to press - they must thank the allmighty they are still alive. Our guys from TV weren't that lucky - 2 are dead shot by Georgians. Ok so they didn't look like press because they didn't have big writing such as "TV" or "PRESS" markings on their vehicle(though I didn't see the outside of their car/4wd). So what did they look like then? How about civilians. Couldn't confuse them for a T-80 or BMP-3 now could they. :hmm:
Could confuse them with local militias. Seems like in a situation like that it's not out of the ordinary to expect things such as VBIED's etc. driven by folks in civilian clothing. The Americans have a long tradition of shooting all vehicles they deem to be these in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure that for example the Georgian troops back from Iraq had to deal with similar situations with similar methods because of US doctrins of warfare.

Here's one famous example of US troops being a little trigger happy with reporters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2921807.stm

[Happy Times]

Turks are lucky - they've been moving in a vehicle with no signs indicating their allegiance to press - they must thank the allmighty they are still alive. Our guys from TV weren't that lucky - 2 are dead shot by Georgians. Ok so they didn't look like press because they didn't have big writing such as "TV" or "PRESS" markings on their vehicle(though I didn't see the outside of their car/4wd). So what did they look like then? How about civilians. Couldn't confuse them for a T-80 or BMP-3 now could they. :hmm:

Could confuse them with local militias. Seems like in a situation like that it's not out of the ordinary to expect things such as VBIED's etc. driven by folks in civilian clothing. The Americans have a long tradition of shooting all vehicles they deem to be these in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure that for example the Georgian troops back from Iraq had to deal with similar situations with similar methods because of US doctrins of warfare.

Yes offcourse, the Georgians are known for their suicide bombers.

[Happy Times]

Turks are lucky - they've been moving in a vehicle with no signs indicating their allegiance to press - they must thank the allmighty they are still alive. Our guys from TV weren't that lucky - 2 are dead shot by Georgians.

Werent they enbedded in a Russian colum?
No idea. But those Turkish journalists almost had a few 5.45mm rounds embedded in their foreheads courtesy of some trigger happy Russians with AK-74's. :down: They weren't warning shots, thats for sure. :yep:

I ment those Russian journos, they were travelling with an Russian armored convoy.

[August]

I ment those Russian journos, they were travelling with an Russian armored convoy.

I believe they were.

[OneToughHerring]

Turks are lucky - they've been moving in a vehicle with no signs indicating their allegiance to press - they must thank the allmighty they are still alive. Our guys from TV weren't that lucky - 2 are dead shot by Georgians. Ok so they didn't look like press because they didn't have big writing such as "TV" or "PRESS" markings on their vehicle(though I didn't see the outside of their car/4wd). So what did they look like then? How about civilians. Couldn't confuse them for a T-80 or BMP-3 now could they. :hmm:
Could confuse them with local militias. Seems like in a situation like that it's not out of the ordinary to expect things such as VBIED's etc. driven by folks in civilian clothing. The Americans have a long tradition of shooting all vehicles they deem to be these in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure that for example the Georgian troops back from Iraq had to deal with similar situations with similar methods because of US doctrins of warfare.
Yes offcourse, the Georgians are known for their suicide bombers.

Well the Beslan school siege was a example of an act of violence targeted against the Ossetians, in that case it was the North Ossetians. The ones who carried out that attack were ready to blow themselves up and many of them did just that. And in Chechnya VBIED's have been a pretty common thing. But they are muslims and you don't don't feel too much pity when muslims die, right?

[Happy Times]

Turks are lucky - they've been moving in a vehicle with no signs indicating their allegiance to press - they must thank the allmighty they are still alive. Our guys from TV weren't that lucky - 2 are dead shot by Georgians. Ok so they didn't look like press because they didn't have big writing such as "TV" or "PRESS" markings on their vehicle(though I didn't see the outside of their car/4wd). So what did they look like then? How about civilians. Couldn't confuse them for a T-80 or BMP-3 now could they. :hmm:
Could confuse them with local militias. Seems like in a situation like that it's not out of the ordinary to expect things such as VBIED's etc. driven by folks in civilian clothing. The Americans have a long tradition of shooting all vehicles they deem to be these in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure that for example the Georgian troops back from Iraq had to deal with similar situations with similar methods because of US doctrins of warfare.
Yes offcourse, the Georgians are known for their suicide bombers.

Well the Beslan school siege was a example of an act of violence targeted against the Ossetians, in that case it was the North Ossetians. The ones who carried out that attack were ready to blow themselves up and many of them did just that. And in Chechnya VBIED's have been a pretty common thing. But they are muslims and you don't don't feel too much pity when muslims die, right?

Again you show your "skill" in manipulating facts :D
Comparing the Chechens and Georgians is hilarious, there havent been one Georgian suicide bomber to my knowledge in history. Even Chechens iused it rarely compard to Israel, Afganistan, Iraq.. Your finding excuses for the Russians to shoot anything that moves. Reasons behind are unclear and im not going start guessing, you should see a professional. And to Chechnya, i had a lot of symphathy for them until the Saudis came with their Wahhabism. Btw there are Chechens and Cossacks doing some raping and murdering on the Russian side in Ossetia.

[OneToughHerring]

Turks are lucky - they've been moving in a vehicle with no signs indicating their allegiance to press - they must thank the allmighty they are still alive. Our guys from TV weren't that lucky - 2 are dead shot by Georgians. Ok so they didn't look like press because they didn't have big writing such as "TV" or "PRESS" markings on their vehicle(though I didn't see the outside of their car/4wd). So what did they look like then? How about civilians. Couldn't confuse them for a T-80 or BMP-3 now could they. :hmm:
Could confuse them with local militias. Seems like in a situation like that it's not out of the ordinary to expect things such as VBIED's etc. driven by folks in civilian clothing. The Americans have a long tradition of shooting all vehicles they deem to be these in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure that for example the Georgian troops back from Iraq had to deal with similar situations with similar methods because of US doctrins of warfare.
Yes offcourse, the Georgians are known for their suicide bombers.
Well the Beslan school siege was a example of an act of violence targeted against the Ossetians, in that case it was the North Ossetians. The ones who carried out that attack were ready to blow themselves up and many of them did just that. And in Chechnya VBIED's have been a pretty common thing. But they are muslims and you don't don't feel too much pity when muslims die, right?
Again you show your "skill" in manipulating facts :D
Comparing the Chechens and Georgians is hilarious, there havent been one Georgian suicide bomber to my knowledge in history. Even Chechens iused it rarely compard to Israel, Afganistan, Iraq.. Your finding excuses for the Russians to shoot anything that moves. Reasons behind are unclear and im not going start guessing, you should see a professional. And to Chechnya, i had a lot of symphathy for them until the Saudis came with their Wahhabism. Btw there are Chechens and Cossacks doing some raping and murdering on the Russian side in Ossetia.
Well suicide bombs are what they refer as unconventional warfare. The Japanese had the kamikazes as a kind of last ditch weapon. Didn't really work for the Japanese but it has worked quite well in inflicting casualties against the aggressor in Iraq, Afghanistan and also in Chechnya. Why do you think they haven't used VBIEDs and IEDs etc. in Chechya? Here's a compilation of a few of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLVcdxLxkR0

Oh ok Chechens were ok originally but then Saudi's 'contaminated' them and now it's ok for Russians to kill them. Ok I get it now.

[August]

but it has worked quite well in inflicting casualties against the aggressor in Iraq...

Really? And here i was thinking it was far more dangerous to nearby civilians than military forces.

[Happy Times]

Turks are lucky - they've been moving in a vehicle with no signs indicating their allegiance to press - they must thank the allmighty they are still alive. Our guys from TV weren't that lucky - 2 are dead shot by Georgians. Ok so they didn't look like press because they didn't have big writing such as "TV" or "PRESS" markings on their vehicle(though I didn't see the outside of their car/4wd). So what did they look like then? How about civilians. Couldn't confuse them for a T-80 or BMP-3 now could they. :hmm:
Could confuse them with local militias. Seems like in a situation like that it's not out of the ordinary to expect things such as VBIED's etc. driven by folks in civilian clothing. The Americans have a long tradition of shooting all vehicles they deem to be these in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure that for example the Georgian troops back from Iraq had to deal with similar situations with similar methods because of US doctrins of warfare.
Yes offcourse, the Georgians are known for their suicide bombers.
Well the Beslan school siege was a example of an act of violence targeted against the Ossetians, in that case it was the North Ossetians. The ones who carried out that attack were ready to blow themselves up and many of them did just that. And in Chechnya VBIED's have been a pretty common thing. But they are muslims and you don't don't feel too much pity when muslims die, right?
Again you show your "skill" in manipulating facts :D
Comparing the Chechens and Georgians is hilarious, there havent been one Georgian suicide bomber to my knowledge in history. Even Chechens iused it rarely compard to Israel, Afganistan, Iraq.. Your finding excuses for the Russians to shoot anything that moves. Reasons behind are unclear and im not going start guessing, you should see a professional. And to Chechnya, i had a lot of symphathy for them until the Saudis came with their Wahhabism. Btw there are Chechens and Cossacks doing some raping and murdering on the Russian side in Ossetia.
Well suicide bombs are what they refer as unconventional warfare. The Japanese had the kamikazes as a kind of last ditch weapon. Didn't really work for the Japanese but it has worked quite well in inflicting casualties against the aggressor in Iraq, Afghanistan and also in Chechnya. Why do you think they haven't used VBIEDs and IEDs etc. in Chechya? Here's a compilation of a few of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLVcdxLxkR0

Oh ok Chechens were ok originally but then Saudi's 'contaminated' them and now it's ok for Russians to kill them. Ok I get it now.

The unconventional warfare ive been trained doesnt include blowing myself up in a truck.
I said they were more rare in Chechnya and said nothing about IEDs.

[OneToughHerring]

Turks are lucky - they've been moving in a vehicle with no signs indicating their allegiance to press - they must thank the allmighty they are still alive. Our guys from TV weren't that lucky - 2 are dead shot by Georgians. Ok so they didn't look like press because they didn't have big writing such as "TV" or "PRESS" markings on their vehicle(though I didn't see the outside of their car/4wd). So what did they look like then? How about civilians. Couldn't confuse them for a T-80 or BMP-3 now could they. :hmm:
Could confuse them with local militias. Seems like in a situation like that it's not out of the ordinary to expect things such as VBIED's etc. driven by folks in civilian clothing. The Americans have a long tradition of shooting all vehicles they deem to be these in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure that for example the Georgian troops back from Iraq had to deal with similar situations with similar methods because of US doctrins of warfare.
Yes offcourse, the Georgians are known for their suicide bombers.
Well the Beslan school siege was a example of an act of violence targeted against the Ossetians, in that case it was the North Ossetians. The ones who carried out that attack were ready to blow themselves up and many of them did just that. And in Chechnya VBIED's have been a pretty common thing. But they are muslims and you don't don't feel too much pity when muslims die, right?
Again you show your "skill" in manipulating facts :D
Comparing the Chechens and Georgians is hilarious, there havent been one Georgian suicide bomber to my knowledge in history. Even Chechens iused it rarely compard to Israel, Afganistan, Iraq.. Your finding excuses for the Russians to shoot anything that moves. Reasons behind are unclear and im not going start guessing, you should see a professional. And to Chechnya, i had a lot of symphathy for them until the Saudis came with their Wahhabism. Btw there are Chechens and Cossacks doing some raping and murdering on the Russian side in Ossetia.
Well suicide bombs are what they refer as unconventional warfare. The Japanese had the kamikazes as a kind of last ditch weapon. Didn't really work for the Japanese but it has worked quite well in inflicting casualties against the aggressor in Iraq, Afghanistan and also in Chechnya. Why do you think they haven't used VBIEDs and IEDs etc. in Chechya? Here's a compilation of a few of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLVcdxLxkR0

Oh ok Chechens were ok originally but then Saudi's 'contaminated' them and now it's ok for Russians to kill them. Ok I get it now.
The unconventional warfare ive been trained doesnt include blowing myself up in a truck.
I said they were more rare in Chechnya and said nothing about IEDs.
Yea well the situation and realities are a little different down there. I'm sure we'll see all kinds and types of unconventional warfare in Georgia too if the conflict drags on.

Here's some links to carbombs or VBIEDs used in the Chechen conflict.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1063159.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/968706.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/16/international/europe/16chechnya-brief.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20010620/ai_n14393588
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/07/30/news/Russia-Restive-South.php
And also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_suicide_attacks

I'm sure there are others too, just Google Chechnya & carbombs. But having said that I wish the region would soon have peace.

[CptSimFreak]

American broadcaster CNN has been accused of using the wrong pictures in their coverage of the conflict in South Ossetia. A Russian cameraman says footage of wrecked tanks and ruined buildings, which was purported to have been filmed in the town of Gori, in fact showed the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-PEb_IW5_3g

[Letum]

Pfft:
Real? Fake?
http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/363914.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1219003324&Signature=LZrh3tCM%2FQNyt0TzhqlPMXvgRi8%3D

[Jimbuna]

Pfft:
Real? Fake?
http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/363914.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1219003324&Signature=LZrh3tCM%2FQNyt0TzhqlPMXvgRi8%3D

Keep getting an error message when trying to view :hmm:

[1480]

Turks are lucky - they've been moving in a vehicle with no signs indicating their allegiance to press - they must thank the allmighty they are still alive. Our guys from TV weren't that lucky - 2 are dead shot by Georgians. Ok so they didn't look like press because they didn't have big writing such as "TV" or "PRESS" markings on their vehicle(though I didn't see the outside of their car/4wd). So what did they look like then? How about civilians. Couldn't confuse them for a T-80 or BMP-3 now could they. :hmm:
Could confuse them with local militias. Seems like in a situation like that it's not out of the ordinary to expect things such as VBIED's etc. driven by folks in civilian clothing. The Americans have a long tradition of shooting all vehicles they deem to be these in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure that for example the Georgian troops back from Iraq had to deal with similar situations with similar methods because of US doctrins of warfare.
Yes offcourse, the Georgians are known for their suicide bombers.
Well the Beslan school siege was a example of an act of violence targeted against the Ossetians, in that case it was the North Ossetians. The ones who carried out that attack were ready to blow themselves up and many of them did just that. And in Chechnya VBIED's have been a pretty common thing. But they are muslims and you don't don't feel too much pity when muslims die, right?
Again you show your "skill" in manipulating facts :D
Comparing the Chechens and Georgians is hilarious, there havent been one Georgian suicide bomber to my knowledge in history. Even Chechens iused it rarely compard to Israel, Afganistan, Iraq.. Your finding excuses for the Russians to shoot anything that moves. Reasons behind are unclear and im not going start guessing, you should see a professional. And to Chechnya, i had a lot of symphathy for them until the Saudis came with their Wahhabism. Btw there are Chechens and Cossacks doing some raping and murdering on the Russian side in Ossetia.
Well suicide bombs are what they refer as unconventional warfare. The Japanese had the kamikazes as a kind of last ditch weapon. Didn't really work for the Japanese but it has worked quite well in inflicting casualties against the aggressor in Iraq, Afghanistan and also in Chechnya. Why do you think they haven't used VBIEDs and IEDs etc. in Chechya? Here's a compilation of a few of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLVcdxLxkR0

Oh ok Chechens were ok originally but then Saudi's 'contaminated' them and now it's ok for Russians to kill them. Ok I get it now.
The unconventional warfare ive been trained doesnt include blowing myself up in a truck.
I said they were more rare in Chechnya and said nothing about IEDs.
Yea well the situation and realities are a little different down there. I'm sure we'll see all kinds and types of unconventional warfare in Georgia too if the conflict drags on.

Here's some links to carbombs or VBIEDs used in the Chechen conflict.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1063159.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/968706.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/16/international/europe/16chechnya-brief.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20010620/ai_n14393588
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/07/30/news/Russia-Restive-South.php
And also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_suicide_attacks

I'm sure there are others too, just Google Chechnya & carbombs. But having said that I wish the region would soon have peace.

I agree with your last statement.

But I kindly disagree with your premise of carbombings = unconventional warfare.

Terrorism = 1.the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes. 2.the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization. 3.a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism


Against a military target, the line is quite fuzzy. Against civilian targets, it's terrorism.